388: Ketosis For Muscle-Building, The Best Way To Fast, How To Heal Your Joints & Much More.

In this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Show. Ketosis for muscle building, the best way to fast, how to heal your joints, and much more.

He's an expert in human performance and nutrition, voted America's top personal trainer and one of the globe's most influential people in health and fitness. His show provides you with everything you need to optimize physical and mental performance. He is Ben Greenfield.

Power, speed, mobility, balance, whatever it is for you, that's the natural movement. Get out there. When you look at all the studies done, studies that have shown the greatest efficacy.

All the information you need in one place right here, right now on the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast.

Well, Brock, I have two very interesting nutrition anecdotes to share with you. But shall I share the extremely strange and far out one with you or the more normal mouth watering one first?

Well, let's, let's ease into it, shall we? Let's start with the mouth watering first.

Let's not scare away everybody first.

Exactly. People just, they don't know what they're in for yet.

I must say that they do not sponsor the podcast, nor do I have any financial affiliation with them. But I have been and cooked last night on this Traeger grill. Have you ever used a Traeger?

No, I've never heard of it.

Okay, so I'm doing a reverse sear now on my steaks. The last time I was on the Joe Rogan podcast, he shared this method with me and I decided I would put it up against my old school method of sauteing a steak.

I remember that whole conversation that you guys had.

Yeah. So I used to do a saute at high heat, then all in olive oil and then broil one minute each side, take it back out and finish it with butter.

So that's, I've done that for years myself in the winter when I can't put it on the grill outside. That's, that's my go to method as well.

The Traeger girls run by pellets. So you pour the pellets in and you know, I had like a cedar, I believe it was a cedar alderman pellet mix. And I think like a smoker, it's very similar to a smoker. So the pellets go into a barrel under the grill. That barrel allows for even heating as well as smoking of anything that you put on it. So last night I tested this out. I took my, my kids down to the river to paddle board with them. And beforehand I put a couple of the grass fed grass finished bone in French cut ribeye steaks from, from us Wellness Meats, who I interviewed on the show a long time back. And these folks, they make some of the most mouth watering explosion of flavor in your mouth meat that I've ever had. I mean they don't, they don't make it. They're not in a lab making meat, but something they're doing to their cows.

Down there anyway, they're doing. And French cut, that's when you sort of peel the meat away from the bone so you have like almost a handle, right?

Yeah. And it's dry aged. Exactly. So you don't even need a utensil. So it even looks good with a built in utensil.

Flintstones.

You throw it on this Traeger and you walk away. I mean the thing, this grill is like the Cadillac of grills. It sinks to your phone and it feeds these pellets in. So I set it on smoke, I smoke it at about 175 degrees. I walk away for two hours. And I used a coffee rub, actually I used a coffee rub on the steak, which is ground coffee, some cayenne, some salt, some black pepper and some paprika. And then what I did was came back after paddle boarding after a couple hours and I simply do, I put grill on the Traeger. I take the stakes off the Traeger until it heats from that 175 up to 475. So I jack up the temperature and then once that temperature is back up, I simply throw the steaks on for three minutes each side and that's it. And when I took those things off the grill and I fed them to my drooling family, they went to steak and barbecue nirvana and it was amazing. So if any of you are listening in and you have some extra cash to burn, try one of these girls.

Oh, is it pricey?

I think they're about $1,000. Yeah. Woo.

Well, they're expensive.

Girl.

I've seen some regular barbecues that are over $1,000 too, so that's not really that surprising, I guess.

Yeah, well, either way it's worth it. And so I've done beer can chicken, I've done cedar plank salmon. I'm gonna do brisket later on this week. So ultimately that's the, that's the normal nutrition. Okay, here's the abnormal one.

Let's go hardcore.

Up to this morning, there's a couple of new research studies that have come across my desk. One is called a prescription for clinical immunology. The other one is called reconstitution of the human biome. And these go into the idea of the old friends hypothesis. The fact that in an era of cleanliness and antibiotics and hand washing and C sections that the human gut is not only compromised in terms of its bacterial composition, meaning just a weak microbiome overall, but also is missing out on many of what we would call the old friends that allowed for robust immune system modulation, meaning turning up the immune system when it needs to be turned up and turning it down when it needs to be turned down. Along with decreases in gut inflammation due to their ability to lower the things like inflammatory cytokines in the gut. And these old friends would be things like beneficial, they would be called like helminths, beneficial parasites, beneficial worms, even some species of tapeworms, et cetera. These are all incredibly healing to the gut. So I've been researching this for a couple of months, talking to a couple of people who are, I won't name them on this show but they're relatively well known folks in the anti aging or the biohacking or the health community who have been successfully using these helminths and these parasites literally inoculating by drinking worm eggs and allowing them to populate the stomach drinking basically a large glass vial of the eggs once to two weeks. So I spent it. I had to get a big enough supply for me to trial this for three months and I started the trial this morning. So it cost me about seventeen hundred dollars. So we're not talking cheap on this particular immersive. N equals one journalistic experiment but ultimately.

You mean Ben equals one.

Yes, Ben equals one. I'm drinking water.

Did you get that domain by the way?

No, sorry.

Oh yeah.

It wasn't my priority list. So I'm drinking these worms and I'm going to, I'm going to log results. I'm going to be doing a gut panel to test my cytokines. I'll be repeating not only like a three day stool panel, but I'll also be doing a biome, you know, microbiome analysis and I'm going to see what happens. But that's, that's the latest. This morning I drank a giant glass vial of Chinese parasites.

Were they the, the rat parasites wrapped that they pull out of rat like they get rat parasites out of beetles I believe.

I'm not exactly sure where they are harvesting them from. I was under the impression that they were growing them in the lab. So don't go. And perhaps yeah beautiful worm fantasy by telling came from the asshole of a rat.

The, the only person I know who's done that same. Same test. It was from. They got them out of beetles, but they were from rat feces.

Mm. Yeah.

Which is like a. I. I feel like it's somehow cleaner and more lovely because it came out of the beetle, even though it came out of the rat first. It just seems a little more.

Yeah. On the totem pole of disgusting insects would be farther down than rats. Absolutely. Yeah. Now, if I do need to step away at any point during today's show for massive explosive diarrhea or bathroom decommissioning, that's why. But we should get going.

That's why.

News flashes.

Well, Brock, in my opinion, the funnest thing to talk about on a podcast or elsewhere really is after an introduction like that. Not eating. Not eating.

Yes. Yeah, that's perhaps the way to go. And if you. The only thing you have to eat is something that's passed through the digestive tract of a rat and a beetle, maybe you should just skip a meal.

While the latest study on fasting. And by the way, I tweet profusely over@twitter.com BenGreenfield I take some of the more interesting ones and is the point in the show. Thank you for the Twitter sound effects, Brock. You can stop now.

Thank you. You're welcome.

That was actually pretty good. Were you just.

Yeah.

Was that a computer or was that you?

That was me. That's me, man.

You actually. You sound like a bird. Awesome. Great. See if later on you can do a rat anyways, though. So this latest fasting study was interesting. And I know people probably have their eyes rolled over in the back of their heads at this point if they have to hear yet somebody else on a podcast talk about fasting and its influence on longevity and fat loss and biological health, yada, yada, yada. But the interesting thing about this one was this study title gives it away. Early time restricted feeding improves insulin sensitivity, blood pressure, and oxidative stress. And this, of course, looked at whether or not fasting, particularly a form of intermittent fasting, could improve all of these parameters, like your insulin sensitivity, sensitivity, your beta cell responsiveness, your blood pressure, oxidative stress, appetite. And indeed, fasting did what you would expect it to do. It positively affected all of those parameters. But here is what's most interesting about not only this study, but many of the compelling studies in terms of health effects of fasting. And this is good news for especially people who are drooling over my description of the steak earlier. The benefits of fasting appear to come from what is Alluded to in the title of this study, time restricted feeding. Time restricted feeding and time restricted feeding means you simply have certain periods of time. And the most beneficial for the general population seems to be about six to eight hours, which is, that's like the window of time that you choose during any 24 hour period that you're going to eat your meals. For an active, you know, exercise enthusiast population, that window seems to expand to about 12 hours. You're just more active, you have more throughput and you need to eat more damn calories or squeeze in more calories. And it can just be difficult on the gut. You know, for me personally if I'm, I tend to eat 3,500 to 4,000 calories a day. For me to compress all of that into, let's say a window between 10am and 4pm would be pretty pretty difficult on my gut particularly, you know, so I generally eat all my meals between about 10:00am and 8:00pm, you know, around in there. That's a pretty good split for me. It's about a 10 hour feeding window for me, for example. But anyways, what I'm getting at here is that the benefits do not come with caloric restriction. Caloric restriction is not synonymous with fasting. And in fact, when we look at caloric restriction we see some clues that constant calorie restriction doesn't work, not only for fat loss, but from a greater metabolic standpoint. I mean, you look at the Biggest Loser. So do you remember what kind of blew up with the Biggest Loser? I think it was back in 2015.

Yeah, it was terrible. The studies that came out after that about the downregulation of metabolism and the sort of set point of the, the fat adipose tissue in the body and stuff like.

Yeah, it was terrible. Over, over six months, the average basal metabolic rate drop, right. Like the resting metabolism rate dropped by an average of close to 800 calories. Which means that these folks, because of long term calorie restriction were, were burning about 800 less calories per day every day, which adds up pretty quickly. That I believe comes out to most of these folks to about a 20 to 30% reduction, I guess, in their resting metabolic rate. Which makes sense, obviously. Imagine you're a caveman and it's winter and food is scarce and your body needs to go into some kind of a starvation mode to downregulate metabolism. It's protective. Yeah. So you don't become lethargic or you know, and completely run out of energy. So now what happens is with that long term calorie restriction, there are not only issues with the metabolic rate, but there are long term differences in hormonal balance. When you compare that to something like intermittent fasting in which you're eating the same amount of calories, you're just shoving them into, as this study implies, into a compressed feeding window. So it's time restricted feeding. It's not just restricted feeding. Right. There's a big difference. And there was a very interesting study in which they compared intermittent fasting directly against calorie restriction to see which one was superior. And when they did this, it turns out that during intermittent fasting, insulin levels drop and drop and drop and continue to drop. Whereas with calorie restriction, what they called in this diet the crap strategy, they refer to it as calorie reduction as a primary strategy. The crap strategy not only down regulated these folks metabolism, but they didn't see the same response in their pancreas or their beta cells or their insulin levels. They just tapered off. Compared to intermittent fasting where it just got better and better and better. And the other thing that happened in this study was calorie reduction caused nearly a two and a half times higher metabolic slowdown compared to fasting. There was a slight down regulation of metabolism from fasting, but it was relatively non significant. Whereas with the crap diet, these people's metabolisms just dropped right off.

So there was also an increase in stress hormones as well in, in that study, if I recall correctly, like the cortisol levels were, were elevated quite a lot.

Not only that. Yeah, yeah, sorry to interrupt, but, but not only that, there was less weight loss in the calorie reduction group. There was more muscle loss, there was less visceral fat loss. And visceral is the inflammatory fat that you want to get rid of. It was harder to keep weight off because the metab dropped off so much. These folks were hungrier, which of course really reduces adherence to a diet. They had higher insulin, they had more insulin resistance. And compared to intermittent fasting, intermittent fasting had more weight loss, more lean muscle gain, more visceral fat loss, less hunger and lower insulin along with less insulin resistance. So what this comes down to, especially because I know a lot of exercising people listening to this show is don't feel bad about all of these studies that are coming out on fasting and you feel as though you just can't do it because you got to eat a lot of calories to sustain your adventurous, physically active life. That's not the case. It simply comes down to having certain periods of time where you're not shoving food into your gaping maw, but still allowing yourself to eat. I have one friend who's very metabolically healthy and he eats once a day. Do you eat once a day?

You're talking about me, right?

Yeah, yeah, sometimes you have your giant serving of poutine once a day. I just returned from a health mastermind with a whole bunch of physicians who I was kind of fermenting in knowledge with in the living room of a house down in Utah. And it was. Well, by fermenting, I mean fermenting in their knowledge, the wonderful knowledge of ketosis and fasting and all this jazz. You know, it turns out that there are of course, little hacks that you can throw into a time restricted feeding protocol. Probably at the top of the list would be ketone esters or ketone salts because they appear to not only give you a little bit more cognitive throughput, but also massive decreases in multiple inflammatory pathways. So there are other ways that you can enhance the effects of a fast. But before droning on too long about this particular study, I just want to emphasize the big picture is focus on time restricted feeding, not calorie restriction.

Yeah, yeah. And this study in particular, you said at the beginning the name of the study is early time restricted feeding. And for this one it was a six hour feeding period and they actually had dinner at 3pm so they weren't eating after say 4pm or something, which I think I'd find a lot more difficult. And I, I didn't see the full report from the study. Maybe you did. Whether or not this was actually like they were comparing it just to say like a 1pm to 8pm feeding or 7pm feeding window rather than this crazy sort of 3pm thing.

Well, for anybody who wants to wrap their heads around that, rather than us talking about on a podcast, go read Dr. Sachin Panda's new book. Probably one of the best books when it comes to how to time your meals and other elements of your lifestyle to enhance your circadian rhythmicity. I forget the title of the book, but if you just go to Amazon and do a search for Sachin Panda, his last name is P A N D A. You'll. You'll find his most recent book, which is really good, so.

And download the app too, so you can be part of the study because they're collecting some really cool data.

MyCircadianClock.org is where that app is. MyCircadianClock.org if you want yet another app cluttering up your Phone off the top.

Of your head, too. Nice work, Ben.

Yeah, I study this stuff. I have a couple of other things I wanted to mention, though. Speaking of ketosis, this study looked at whether or not people who follow a ketogenic diet could actually maintain muscle. It was called efficacy of a ketogenic diet on body composition during Resistance training in trained men. And what this study found was actually pretty interesting. They have these people follow a ketogenic diet, but they actually gave them an energy surplus, meaning they were doing almost like a mass gain type of protocol. But on a ketogenic diet while doing resistance training, what they found was that these folks were able to decrease body fat and that bad visceral adipose tissue I talked about earlier, that visceral fat without decreasing their lean body mass. So they were able to lose fat and maintain muscle. However, on a ketogenic diet, they were unable to actually put on significant amounts of muscle. So if you're trying to maybe get lean or get ripped or burn fat while maintaining muscle, this ketogenic approach seems to work pretty well. And I realize there are folks, you know, for example, I believe the website is ketogains.com. there are folks who are successfully gaining weight or appear to be gaining muscle on a ketogenic diet. It's just, that's more anecdotal and it doesn't seem that in literature they've been able to replicate some of the results that these folks are claiming to get. The people who I talk to, who do it most successfully, they're following it ketogenic diet most of the day and then incorporating some type of a weekly or even a daily refeed of carbohydrates or including more carbohydrates on their more physically active, more resistance training intensive days. So that would be termed a cyclic ketogenic diet. Now, ultimately, what it looks like is that if you are weight training and following a ketogenic diet, you can at least maintain muscle and at the same time lose fat. So that's, that's the, the skinny on that one.

Yeah, I thought it was interesting. This study only went on for eight weeks, so I'd like to see a longer term. I'm. I'm sure there's. They may be continuing, who knows? But. Yeah, but I think that probably plays into some of the results.

I wrote an article@bengreenfieldfitness.com on my brother Zach, who I put on a ketogenic diet, and this was when he was modeling and we wanted to put about 30 pounds of muscle on his body. We successfully did it. But again, he was using a cyclic approach. I had him on at least four days of the week eating sweet potatoes and yams and parsnips and carrots and beets and rice and, you know, all these type of things with dinner. And it was very successful. So ultimately it turns out that you can maintain muscle, you can lose fat, but you can't build muscle that effectively unless you incorporate some other techniques.

So the only problem with that, that trial that you did on, on your brother was that he's just so ugly and it's hard to look at photos of him.

Yeah, ladies, do a Google hideous. Do a Google image search for Zach Greenfield and be prepared for lots of underwear photos. Underwear websites. Anyways, the next thing is that I had one other that I wanted to highlight before we get into this week's Q and A. And that was this idea of a ketogenic diet reducing power production. So we know that it seems to affect muscle. And in this study, what they found was that a ketogenic diet reduced anaerobic performance, meaning they put people on a high carb diet versus a low carb diet. Granted, it was only for four days, but they did notice a really significant difference in anaerobic performance. And it turns out that ketosis seems to pretty significantly impair anaerobic exercise performance. And this was with what's called a Wingate cycling test, which is a horrible 30 second all out protocol that's very, very painful. I used to do that back in the exercise physiology lab when we do studies at University of Idaho. And then they also did a yo yo intermittent recovery test, which is basically like high intensity interval training. So they found pretty steep drops. They found about 6 to 8% lower power in the ketogenic group on the cycling test and about 15% lower performance on the Yoyo test. But what I found most interesting was that in the discussion of the paper, they talk about how a big part of this could be due to the acidic and ammonia buildup that occurs when one is in ketosis, thereby giving me the idea that if you're going to be an anaerobic athlete and follow a relatively ketogenic diet, it might benefit you to include certain buffers in your diet or certain buffers in your supplementation protocol that would allow for what is called extracellular buffering. And there are a variety of supplements that have actually been shown to do this. Probably the most affordable, and the one that's been studied quite a bit, is simply bicarbonate, meaning that leading up to A very difficult, let's say a sprint triathlon or a CrossFit workout or soccer match or anything else that would include repeated bouts of anaerobic performance. You would take a small amount of baking soda to reduce gastrointestinal problems. It's a small amount of baking soda, like around a teaspoon every 20 minutes for a couple of hours leading up to that event. You know, you just kind of stir it into, into warm water. Other supplements that have been heavily studied as intramuscular buffers, one would be carnosine. So carnosine would be one that you can simply find it, you know, at supplement outlets. And it appears that increasing muscle carnitine or carnosine rather seems to help out quite a bit with buffering as well as actual performance. So it's not just helping to buffer, but it's actually causing a gain in performance upon buffering. Beta alanine. Beta alanine is another that leads to a little bit of like flushing and prickling sensation on the skin if you take a lot of it. There are newer supplements that you can find now if you were to go to Amazon, for example, to look for beta alanine that are advertised as more shops slow release beta alanine, so you don't get that same kind of prickly effect. But ultimately beta alanine appears to be another really good one. I've interviewed on the Ben Greenfield Fitness show a couple of months ago, a guy named Craig Dinkel, and we also talked about citrulline malate. Citrulline malate that seems to act on lactic acid pretty significantly as well. You could go listen to that podcast, it's entitled what are the best Supplements for Altitude? Because a lot of these same supplements that work really well for buffering also work well for altitude. But the takeaway story from this study and my follow up thoughts on it were that if you're going to be an athlete, especially an anaerobic athlete on a ketogenic diet, you should consider including these buffers in your diet.

So you think that it's not necessarily that these, these athletes were running out of fuel and like, like just pooping out because of that.

They're actually, yeah, it's, it's too short of an event, you know, for, for after four days, you know, and obviously, you know, I've talked with Mark Sisson about this on the show. You know, they weren't quote, fat burning machines, unquote, because they hadn't yet followed a ketogenic diet for a long enough period of time. And you know, they, they Weren't fat adapted, so to speak. But ultimately, when something is this short, a big part of it could come down to the increased acidic and ammonia buildup that they're going into the actual exercise session with because of the slightly acidotic state that ketosis can produce. And by the way, just because of that acidotic state and net renal acid load, or what's called potential renal acid load prol. I am a huge fan of if you are going to follow a low carbohydrate, high fat diet, ensuring that it is a plant rich diet because you'll get a lot of alkalinizing compounds from plants and if their plants grown in mineral rich soil, you'll also get the alkalizing benefits of minerals. So when people ask me what's a good ketogenic diet to follow, you know, in many cases, if they're an athlete, I tell them, well, go, go hunt down. Like the Wahls protocol by Terry Wahls, who healed her multiple sclerosis with a specific protocol and is essentially very similar to a ketogenic diet, but it's a heavily plant rich ketogenic diet. And then I tell them, well, do the Wahls protocol but include more carbohydrates at night than that protocol prescribes. You know, rather than the 20 to 40 grams of carbohydrate, you know, step it up to 100 to 200 grams of carbs in the evening and that'll keep you alkalinized, it'll keep your glycogen levels topped off, it'll let you tap into all the benefits of a ketogenic diet and also not sacrifice performance gains. So there you have it. We have literally spent the first half hour of this podcast talking about food and eating.

And I have an amazing new idea for a business. I'm going to open up stands that sell bicarbonate soda in cross fit boxes.

Yes. Include a diaper. Upsell a diaper into that equation.

Yeah.

All right. Speaking of diaper, I need to take a very quick pee. Give me one second. And it's not the worms. It's not the worms. The worms.

Nice.

Listener. Q and A.

Hey, Ben, My name is Garrett Press. I'm a big fan of the podcast. My question for you today relates to whenever I'm doing strength or resistance training, I notice that my muscles tend to tremble or shake. And this has been happening for as long as I can remember, which is early high school, when I was training for the junior varsity basketball team in and I'm 31 now, still dealing with Tends to result in my friends, or whoever I'm training with to joke that I'm trying to outlift my potential or I'm too weak for the weights at hand. This tends not to be the case. And I've also read that it could be from dehydration. But drink a ton of water and especially when I'm working out, so I don't think that's the issue. So if you have any other hypotheses as to what could be causing this or supplements or methods that might help temperate, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot, man. Bye. Bye.

I totally feel you, Garrett. I get this. Not when I'm, like, lifting heavy weights, but when I'm doing, like, yoga. It's so weird. Like, I'll get into a yoga pose and, like, my quad will just start shaking or my calf will. My entire leg will be, like, spazzing out. It's really weird.

I thought Garrett was just using a Shake Weight. Maybe if he quit using a Shake Weight.

I love my Shake Weight.

I don't have one. I've never used them.

I'm just kidding. I've never used one either.

So pretty gimmicky. Let me stick to my Hex bar. Thank you.

I'm sure it's a good workout, but do you really need a dedicated device for that? But, yeah, anyway.

Well, I mean, there's all the low hanging fruit, right? All the low hanging fruit. Like, you know, are you hypoglycemic? Take care of that. Make sure that you're not completely starved going into your workout or that your blood sugar isn't too low. And that's not rocket science. You know, get a. Get a blood glucose monitor. Make sure your blood glucose isn't too low. And if it is, then perhaps you should eat something before you work out or get your blood glucose level stabilized. Other ways it can also.

Or just let your hypothalamus tell you that you're hungry.

Yeah, exactly. It could also be. Although, interestingly, once you start a workout, you begin producing a bunch of lactic acid, and that gets converted into glucose via something called the Cory cycle. So sometimes you can be hypoglycemic, and as soon as you start the workout, you're. You're good to go. Your body just amps up your blood glucose naturally.

Yeah, you said almost every morning that. That sort of thing. Because I like to. I like to hang on and wait until later in the morning to eat, but I like to get my workout done in the morning. So I. I count on that.

In fact, I know I get hungry for my morning workout, too. So I start off a morning workout with 30 burpees, which is about two minutes of burpees. And that produces enough lactic acid to take away the hunger. Then you go do your workout.

Yeah.

Amps up your blood glucose.

It's really cool.

Coffee does it, too. Coffee causes your liver to release a bunch of storage liver glycogen. That'll amp up your blood glucose. Have a cup of Coffee, do 30 burpees, and save brekkie for later. You can do it and then shove.

Your face into some cold water, and that releases a whole bunch of oxygen. And we could just go on and on.

Yeah. You know, dehydration can be the other one. That would be what dehydration can cause is this wave of change in your electrolytes. So your connective tissue has a little bit of difficulty getting signals from your brain to your muscle fibers. And that's, again, pretty straightforward. Just make sure that you're adequately hydrated and that you have adequate minerals in your system. So the other one that I should, you know, I'd probably be remiss, not to mention would be just make sure that you screened yourself for something like Parkinson's, you know, because the cardinal symptoms of Parkinson's are often, you know, more. More arresting. Tremor. You. You'd shake a lot of times, aside from just during exercise. But there's, you know, in terms of Parkinson's, there's not an objective test like a blood test or a brain scan or an EEG that you can get. But the FDA a few years ago did approve this. This imaging technique, called a DAT scan, in which they'll capture the dopamine signals in your brain, and they'll often use that as a diagnostic imaging technique for the assessment of something like Parkinson's. But ultimately, you would probably be shaking at rest if you had Parkinson's. But you may want to. I'd be remiss not to say, you know, go, go speak to your medical professional about Parkinson's if you are shaking not only at rest, but also during exercise. So, anyways, the thing is, let's start by examining what happens when you actually exercise. So in skeletal muscle, your cells don't actually contract one by one, all by themselves. They contract as groups of muscle cells. So these groups of muscle cells are all connected to a motor nerve that originates in your spinal cord, and the combination of the motor nerve cell, which is called the neuron, and all the muscle cells that. That neuron innervates it's known as the motor unit. The motor unit. So the size of the motor units that determines the precision of movement that any muscle can produce. So, like in your larynx or your voice box, all the motor nerves connect to two or three individual muscle cells. So you have very fine gradations of strength and control. If you're like an opera singer, and then you have large muscles, like, you know, like your quads, for example, and those have motor units with motor nerves that control, like 2000 or more muscle cells. So it's very interesting that the size of these, these motor units can change pretty significantly based on where they're at. But none of the motor units all get excited simultaneously when a muscle is, is ready to contract, Unless you're using one of these, like, electrical muscle stimulation units that just grabs all the muscle fibers at once, because you're using, in essence, an external brain. In most cases, the units get excited in an asynchronous fashion by all these electrical impulses that come down the motor nerves from the spinal cord. So some of the motor units in a muscle group can be contracting and shortening in the muscle belly, and others can be relaxing and lengthening. So you have some overlap, but ultimately the muscle tends to contract pretty smoothly overall. However, once you get into strenuous exercise, towards the end of a set or the end of a sprint, some of the motor units start to drop out of service because of fatigue. And a lot of that fatigue, it occurs in the spinal cord at the level of the actual motor nerve cell and the neural connection. So some of it has to do with the actual motor nerve. It's called the myoneural junction, the junction between the motor nerve and the muscle cells. And it's because you need to release certain chemicals. Serotonin, dopamine, et cetera, are chemicals that you' find in these junctions, and those help to carry electrical impulses across to a nerve cell or across to a muscle cell. So when you can't manufacture neurotransmitters fast enough to keep up with the level of activity, or let's say you even have, like, myelin sheath degradation because you've been fat depleted for a long time, or calorically depleted, or you have some kind of a nerve damage because you've got low vitamin B status, depletion of any of these type of things can cause this biochemical lack of what you actually need to maintain a smooth muscle contraction. So as more and more motor units in this scenario become temporarily non functional, the contraction becomes dependent on Fewer and fewer motor units. So as these fatigued motor units drop off, all of a sudden you look at the muscle and it becomes less synchronous and less smooth and begins to be replaced by this jerky trembly movement because you've got fewer and fewer motor units trying to grab the actual or contract the actual muscle fibers. So ultimately, that's what's happening nine times out of ten when you shake during exercise is it's a motor nerve issue where motor units drop out of service because they're no longer being innervated from the spinal cord level. That's assuming you're not dehydrated and that you have adequate glucose.

So you still could have enough like, oomph left in your body to actually complete the set or even do another couple of sets. It's just that they're depleted enough that you're getting that asynchronous tugging.

Right? Right.

Or would you actually be at failure at that point? Because like, no, Garrett was saying muscle.

Never fails all at once. It'll, it'll, it'll run out of a little bit of energy neurochemicals, and then it'll eventually shake and then eventually fail once you just run out of enough motor units, period. This is why when you watch someone do that last repetition of a bench press, you know, it's shaking a lot. You know, you can see the bar shaking a lot because the motor units are just dropping off rapidly at that point. And as far as what you can do about this, I mean, as I've alluded to, when we look at these neurochemicals and neurotransmitters, if you shake a lot, it's very possible that you actually have some, some neurotransmitter or a depletion of some chemicals that would be responsible for, for example, the, the health of the nerve or the fatty acids necessarily necessary for myelin sheath health, which is one of the ways that nerve signals get propagated down an actual nerve. So the idea behind this would be to replenish the things that you might be running out of. One would be phosphate groups. This is where something like the use of ATP or creatine monohydrate would come in handy. Or both using creatine pre workout or using some form of ATP pre workout, both of which you can purchase in supplement form. Another thing would be any of the amino acids that would be precursor amino acids for what you need for neurotransmitters. Do not use branched chain amino acids, which are just three amino acids Leucine, isoleucine and valine. Not only do those not give you a complete spectrum of amino acids that you would need for these neurotransmitters, but leucine particularly is one that I don't like when it comes to some of the deleterious glucose and insulin responses that seem to come with leucine consumption versus supplementing with all nine essential amino acids. Now, in this case, I always sound like a fox guarding the hen house because one of Kion's prime products is essential amino acids. I mean, we sell those, but there's a reason we do, because I use them every day. Most of my clients use them. Most of the athletes that I coach use them with great efficacy. When it comes to taking about 5 up to 20 grams of these pre workout, going into a workout with high blood levels of amino acids, even more so if you're like a ketogenic or a low carb athlete, is one of the best things that you can do for performance. And yes, you still maintain that fasted non insulinogenic state with low blood glucose when you take these, but you go into your workout preferably with high blood levels of amino acids and high levels of either creatine or ATP or both. That would be what your pre workout stack would consist of to see if those would be culprits when it comes to the shaking and the trembling. And then there are so many things that you can do for the neuronal health component. I mean, I will.

Before we get into that, can I just. I just want to just to. If he tries that stuff out, let's say Garrett, try some amino acids or some creatine monohydrate or.

Both. Both.

And it does alleviate this shaking. Does that mean they have to take those forever or is there something he can do to. To fill in those gaps forever?

He's screwed. No. In many cases, amino acid depletion can be aggravated by inadequate protein intake in his diet. At other times, same thing with creatine, like very low intake of red meat, etc. I am a fan of if you're going to.

Or fish. Like there's a lot in.

Yeah. If you're gonna push your body to an unnatural ends because you're pushing yourself in the weight room to an extent that frankly most of our ancestors wouldn't have done unless they were in a battle or you know, trying to build a fence within one hour period of time and you know, hoisting sticks and rocks at a rapid pace, ultimately you may need to use what we might deem an unnatural means to achieve an unnatural end. Ends, which is where supplementation with things like creatine and amino acids and ATP come in. I don't think that it's because there's some type of a deficit that humans have evolved. I think it's more that we just tend to push ourselves in some of these exercise situations, which is fine if that's what you're doing to scratch an itch or to prepare yourself to climb your own personal Mount Everest, great. I do that all the time. From Ironman triathlon to Spartan races, etc. I do not professional test those to be natural or in many cases even healthy. But if I'm going to do them, I at least, you know, will use some of these things like supplementation and you know, you know, nutritional adjustments to actually make it easier. So anyways though, so I, I didn't.

Mean to indicate that those were unnatural or something that he should try to get off. I just was thinking about sort of like sustainability.

Yeah, okay. So anyways, I wrote an article called Eat Yourself Smart. And in that article I get into not only the things that you should avoid, such as very high histamine foods, some of the artificial sweeteners that in high amounts can tend to be a little bit disruptive to neural signaling, you know, like aspartame for example. But I also get into the things that you should include to ensure that you have healthy nerve firing and that you're able to get that type of motor unit recruitment that you want. A few of the biggies that I mentioned there would be to ensure that you have adequate amounts of conjugated linal acid, which is a fatty acid you'll often find in grass fed grass, finished beef, smoked and grilled on a Traeger or lamb or raw dairy products. If you're not a beef person or a dairy person, you may want to consider supplementing with a conjugated linoleic acid source. Two that I think are even bigger because they literally comprise most of the percentage of the fats that make up your myelin sheaths are DHA and oleic acid. Oleic acid is something you get from say extra virgin olive oil that you would use in copious amounts on all those vegetables that I hope you're eating. And then DHA is something you would get, for example, from wild caught fish or from a supplement like a fish oil that contains high amounts of EPA and dha. And you know, the one that I use, I take about 12 of these every morning now just to kind of dose up with fish oil because I just feel better cognitively and from a joint standpoint when I take more fish oil is I pop these, these super essentials, fish oil capsules. The reason for that is they're, they're packaged up with astaxanthin and some of these other really beneficial antioxidants. So it's not rancid fish oil, which many of these fish oils are. You know it right off the bat if you get fish oil burps, for example. But it also, what they do is they adjust the EPA to DHA ratio for the from 4 to 1 down to 1 to 1 by adding a whole bunch of extra DHA. So it's actually got, got a boost of DHA in it. So I'm a fan of that approach and I'm a fan of using a lot of really good extra virgin olive oil for nerve support. There's a lot of other things that I get into in that article. I mean it's like a 3,000 word article. So I just go read the freaking article to learn about other things you can do in terms of what to eat and what not to eat to support your brain and your nervous system. But as far as like supplementation. Yeah, essential amino acids and then creatine ATP is a stack and then also really good fish oil. You know, consider conjugated linoleic acid and the other things that I talk about in that particular article along with the amino acids. I should also mention something that I literally brought up just a little bit ago in this podcast and that would be the whole concept of activating more motor units. Right? Because remember your group of muscle fibers plus the actual motor neuron itself is the motor unit. And when it gets activated by that neuron, all the muscle fibers in that unit contract. So since muscles are activated by neurons, it turns out that we can from the central nervous system level actually increase the amount of motor units that get recruited if we can somehow get those neurons to fire more readily. And I somehow, yeah, I did not realize I would be talking about this on the same show that they happen to be a sponsor of. But that's what TDCS does. That's what wearing something like this Halo device does is it actually allows you to grab more motor units because it induces motor neuron hyper excitability before a workout or that, you know, that's also where you get the, that state of temporary hyper learning or what's called hyperplasticity in your motor cortex. So that could be like a little hack for you to try. Granted, it's a. I guess it's a $475 mistake if it doesn't work out for you. But I think they have a return policy. You could try that prior to your workouts too. I mean, for anybody who wants to get through a hard workout, I like it as an option. I understand it's expensive, but ultimately that would be another thing that you may want to throw in there is, is using a little bit of TDCS before the workout. So another. Another way you can engage in better living through science.

For those of you who are impatient and fast forwarded through the. The ads earlier. We're talking about the halo headset right now.

That's right. We did not mention that. Yeah, a lot of people do fast forward through the ads.

People do fast forward.

Bastards. How do you think we pay the bills for the show? How do you think I pay Brock to be the amazing editor and such sidekick of this show? If you keep fast forwarding the commercials and Brock disappears. Now you know why you.

It's because I starved to death, you sensitive.

Fast forwarding. Push the little forward 15 seconds button.

Hey, Ben and Brock, thanks for all you do. Love the show. Got a question for you. What do you think about this supplement, Celadrin? It contains something called esterified fatty acid, carbon hormones. Supposedly it's good for your joints and tendons. I didn't have much of an idea of what this actually means. I know certain fatty acids like MCT oils and things like that are good for you, but I wasn't sure about these esterfied fatty acid carbons. Again, thanks for all you do. Hope this y' all can help us out. Thanks.

Yeah. I had never heard of celadrin, but.

When I did, living under a rock.

Yeah, I guess I did some quick googling.

Everybody's heard of celadrin.

Some quick googling and was like, this is cool. Yeah. I actually asked my mom and she's like, come on, I raised you better than this.

Yeah, you disappointed your mother.

She gave me a whooping.

Yeah. No, Celadrin is actually very interesting. You can find it in food. You know, Speak of the devil. Olive oil. Olive oil has really high amounts not of celadrin in it. Celadrin is kind of like the name of the supplement, but Seledrin is a mixture of what are called cetylated fatty acids. That's spelled with a C C. And those are combined by forming naturally occurring fats such as you would find in say like an extra virgin olive oil with acetyl alcohol. When you combine those two, you get something like siladrin and it's an anti inflammatory compound that has been shown in research to be efficacious for arthritis and to improve your joint function and your joint mobility. So it's a very interesting compound that they have done studies on. So it was first discovered in the 60s by the National Institute of Health by some chemists at the National Institute of Health. One guy in particular, H.W. diehl, a chemist who worked for NIH when he was getting old, he started to get osteoarthritis in his hands and his knees and some other joints. So he tried cortisone and he tried non steroidal anti inflammatory drugs and they didn't have much of an effect. And then what he wound up doing was making up a batch of this stuff, this myrostoliate, it was called, including cetyl murals, which is the siladrin. And he was sourcing his myristoleic acid which he was using to make this from beef tallow, butter fat, chicken fat and sheep tallow. That was the original, it turns out. Now you can get it from a lot of plant based fats as well. But what is what it does more or less is it lubricates connective tissue like joints because of those fatty acids. And upon study it's been shown to relieve inflammation. It's been shown to reduce peripheral pain receptor activation to help out with some of the pain associated with autoimmune disease and fibromyalgia and arthritis. So it's actually very interesting as far as a supplement is concerned. And but the cool thing about it is its effects can be enhanced by including certain compounds in your diet. They've looked at things that could enhance the effects of something like a saladrin. Because if you go to Amazon you can get siladrin. I can put a link in the show notes to a few forms of siladrin on Amazon, but you can also throw a few extra things in there to help it out. And by the way, I should mention there are very few side effects that have ever been reported in clinical trials with this. A few people can get a little bit of indigestion, particularly if you have difficulty digesting fats. You may get a little bit of indigestion from. But even then it's also available as a cream or as a soft gel. So you could actually, you know, put it onto the joint as a cream or as a soft gel if it gives you any type of stomach distress. So anyways though the things that can help make it more effective. One would be any type of omega 3 fish oil. So like I mentioned that super essentials earlier, that would be a stack that you could use sildrin, plus, like a really good fish oil. A couple of others would be glucosamine, chondroitin, and then, very interestingly, proteolytic enzymes. Now, proteolytic enzymes in your blood can break down fibrin. A lot of times using these pre or post surgery can be more efficacious for recovery from surgery. They're great for injuries, they're great for generalized joint pain. They're great for later on in the day after you finished a workout. And they can enhance the effects of siladrin. So when you look at the label of a proteolytic enzyme supplement, you're going to see things like papain bromelain, which bromelain you typically find in the pineapple plant, and papain and papayas. But should you not want to travel to an island or eat a bunch of citrus fruit for your joint pain, you can purchase just the enzyme. A couple of others that are pretty powerful would be true. Trypsin, Chymotrypsin is one. Protease is another. So there's a lot of different enzyme blends that you can consume. And I have this stuff called Flex that I have made available at Kion, and that has cherry juice, ginger, turmeric, white willow bark, hyaluronic acid, boswellia, and it's got all of the enzymes in it. And it has goat mineral whey concentrate, which comes from this organic goat farm in Washington. And so there's a bunch of organic minerals and electrolytes in there. But then it also has cetyl myristoleate in it as something that is an added fatty acid. So it's kind of like a shotgun formula that has all of this stuff already in it. I did not anticipate. Really. Well, let me put it this way. I did not think of this question when it first came through as something that would be used as a way to advertise a product that I make. But ultimately, there is a form of oral saladrin in an actual supplement that we design over at Kion, So you can always go that route as well. So we'll put a link to that in the show notes too. But you could. You could also take olive oil. You could take a good fish oil. You could use cilarin on the. On the joints or the muscles. So a lot of good uses for it. But, yeah, cilarin C E L A D R I N is the actual brand name of the stuff, but Cetyl Myristoliate is the actual active chemical in it, so. So have some fun with that.

Hey, my name is Sheridan. First, I just wanted to thank you for being so open and honest about being a Christian and a biohacker. I feel like there's not very many out there, and I highly respect that about you. Just quick question. I was wondering how hot you did your hot tub when you're doing that kind of hot therapy. Drippy. If there was a certain kind of sweet spot or if hotter was better. So, yeah, that was my quick question. Thank you.

Do you remember that Saturday Night Live sketch where Eddie Murphy was being James Brown and he was dancing around the hot tub?

No.

Too hot in the hot tub.

Was this before my time?

Burn my flesh. I think it's before my time.

It's a pretty good. You know what's funny is that just two days ago, I went out to our hot tub and I got in up to my thighs and I thought, holy crap. Either my heat tolerance has gone down a ton or something's wrong with the hot tub. And I peered over at the dashboard and it said, do not enter hot tub Extreme temperature. And it was up at 101. Yeah, it was at 100, 109 degrees Fahrenheit.

Make it cooler.

Which was pretty. Pretty damn warm for the hot tub. And how. Shut up.

I'm done now.

All right. It turns out that for both saunas and hot tubs, they've actually looked into what some of the better temperatures are. But the other thing that's interesting is, you know, I've spent a lot of time over in Finland, particularly those biohacking conferences that I talked about, and they have, like, sauna offset those. They're the World Sauna Championships. And people actually die from burning and dehydration and heart failure during these sauna championships. Yeah. So, for example, the former champion. Yeah, the former champion collapsed along with his Russian rival who was in there at the same time as him. Six minutes into the final round, one of them died. I think the other one wound up being revived. But at that point, they were. They had the sauna at 230 degrees Fahrenheit, and they were in there for over 16 minutes at 230 degrees Fahrenheit. And that's just freaking hot.

I hope somebody at least, like, ate them.

I keep my infrareds nicely roasted, which I'll get into in a second at about158 did you say you hope somebody ate them?

Yeah. That's two episodes in a row I've brought up cannibalism. Being a cannibalism. Yeah, that's. Sorry about that, folks.

You should get that.

I'm not a cannibal, just so you know.

Yeah. Just a Canadian, not a cannibal.

I'm just fixated. I'm a Canadian cannibal. There's a lot of us.

Yeah. So anyways, it appears that that 230 might be a tad hot. And it turns out that it does depend what kind of sauna and what kind of. What's called hyperthermia that you're using to get heat effects there. You know, this whole concept of using heat or cold is actually referred to as hydrotherapy. Hydrotherapy. So that's technically the use of water. Hydrotherapy is. And then heat therapy in general would include things like saunas. When we're talking about a hot tub, that's hydrotherapy. And they have found that, for example, you get enormous increases in things like heat shock protein and in cardiovascular blood flow, along with health of the respiratory system, system decrease in nerve pain and better nerve function, including a buildup of electrical impulses from peripheral nerve endings to the brain, which cause like this analgesic painkilling effect, musculoskeletal effect in terms of a decrease of soreness, perception and increase of blood flow to the muscles, and even an improvement in gastrointestinal symptoms via the use of, you know, they call them like sitz baths for the. For the colon or warm water compresses for the stomach. There's a lot of ways that you can actually use heat as a tonic. Now, when it comes to actual temperature of something like a hot tub, generally in most cases, you're looking at somewhere in the range of 101 to 106 degrees Fahrenheit. I personally keep my own hot tub at about 104 to 105 degrees. And that's. It's pretty hot. But once you get in and once you're under, you can start to feel the body heat up. You know, you break out in a sweat, your face turns red, like, you start to get all the more intense effects of hydrotherapy when you've got it up around there. A lot of times when you go to a hotel, they'll regulate the temperature between about 97 and 102. So they don't like it quite as hot. But I personally, based on the research I seen on heat shock protein, cardiovascular blood flow, the respiratory system, the musculoskeletal system, et cetera. I go 104 to 106 degrees Fahrenheit as far as the temperature of the actual water in the hot tub. And then as far as the actual sauna goes, I use an infrared sauna. And even though my sauna will go up to 158, I don't always use it at 158. So you will get the increase in erythropoietin, all the blood building benefits, a lot of the sweat benefits when you're up at 158. But one of the very cool things about infrared saunas is, and I have a whole article about this I'll link to over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com388 they can be used for detoxification, but only, and this is actually a big discussion of that health mastermind that I was at earlier this week, only if the body is in what would be deemed a parasympathetic mode, meaning that if your sympathetic nervous system is activated by excess heat, you actually down regulate a lot of the blood flow to the core, to the gut, to the liver, etc. And you don't get as much detoxification as if you went with a slightly lower temperature and weren't quite as stressed out. So the idea is that sweat is going to be accomplished through two different types of sweat glands. You have your apocrine glands, and those would be like in your armpits or in your scalp. And the sweat that you're going to find in apocrine glands that contains higher levels of fats and organic compounds. But then you have a second group called the eccrine glands, E, C, C, R, I, N, E. And those are all over your entire body. Those handle a little bit more of the sweating process. Those tend to be higher in actual electrolyte loss and also higher in loss of a lot of these toxins and chemicals and metals that can build up in the body. Because the skin is the largest detoxification organ. And it's been proven in a lot of medical literature that you do lose things like heavy metals through the actual skin. So the thing is, when you use a sauna at a lower temperature, we're talking about 110 to 125 degrees or so, particularly in infrared sauna. What happens is you get a much higher amount of eccrine gland activation. And in one study they found 20% toxin release compared to about 3% toxin release from the sweat that you produce in a higher temperature unit. So the Idea is that lower temperature and like deep breathing, laying on your back, relaxing reading, and like this mild sweat is superior for the detoxification. If you're doing it for the performance benefits, then go hotter, go up to, you know, like that 150, 160 degrees. And ultimately, in my opinion, if you're going to go with any type of sauna, the infrared sauna is the way to go because you can, you can kind of adjust it to be like a detox temp or a higher temp. But I know a lot of guys, you know, like, you know, Laird Hamilton, for example, is famous for his big barrel saunas that he keeps by the pool for the underwater pool workouts. And I don't mind the barrel saunas, but you do get, you get a higher emf, you get very dry air and you get a lot of that heating effect, but you don't get the detox effect of something like an infrared. So ultimately, I would say if you want the most versatile approach, get an infrared. And ultimately I do think that a sauna is a little bit more efficacious than just hydrotherapy with say, a hot tub. But if you are gonna do a hot tub, tub, 104 to 106 degrees.

Now, the only problem I have with, with doing the sauna instead of the hot tub is my beer gets warm way faster in the sauna.

There's a pretty, you can keep your beer pretty cold. It's called a razor. The other thing I should mention is.

That no, my beer, my beard.

Oh, your beer. Your beer gets. What'd you say? Your beer gets too warm?

Yeah, it gets really warm. And no, in the sauna, in the hot tub, you can keep it up on the side and keep it cold. But when you go in the sauna at 150 degrees, it's like five minutes later your beer is too warm to drink.

You know what that's called? It's called a detox retox protocol when you combine alcohol with beer. Actually a lot of the Finnish saunas, you'll, they'll go in the saunas and they'll come out and they'll have some fish soup and some cold beer and then go back in the sauna, then go jump in the Baltic Sea. But you may not want to bring the beer into the actual sauna. It might not be advisable nor tasty. The last thing I should mention is that if you are using hydrotherapy, it should go without saying to use a natural mineral cleaning solution in your hot tub and Then get a hot tub with an ozone filter to help to kill off more of things like the bacteria in the water without you having to use copious amounts of chlorine. So that should go without.

Ben is speaking from, from experience there, yes. You almost lost your leg.

Spend much of my life.

That infection you got heavily chlorinated.

I didn't lose my leg from sitting in a sauna.

Not from the chlorine, no. It was in the hot tub, wasn't it?

No. Lost my leg.

No. Remember when you got that huge infection in your, in your leg?

Mrsa.

Isn't that from a hot tub?

Yeah. No, that was not from a hot tub. That was from a race. That was when I was traveling back from the Wildflower Triathlon. Covered in cuts and scrapes from. I forget how I actually got them. No, it wasn't a Wildflower Triathlon. It was a spartan race. It was barbed wire. Anyways, I had cuts on my body from some race. This was like five years ago. And I had a layover in Las Vegas and I slept in a really crappy hotel and I'm pretty sure that my wounds got MRSA in them from the hotel bed because I came back and within a couple of weeks had flesh eating bacteria all up and down my thighs.

You can, you can look it up on BenGreenfieldFitness.com Ben actually put some photos up. They're gross.

Golf ball size, hole in my leg. Just go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com and search for MRSA. If you like to look at gross things. If you're one of those people that visits the pimple popper website on YouTube. Right up your alley anyways though. So we're getting a little long in the tooth. So what do you think? Shall we give some crap away?

Always. That's the only way to end this show.

So this is the part of the show where Brock will read a lovely review from itunes. And if you hear your review, read and you email gearngreenfieldfitness.com that's gearngreenfieldfitness.Com with your T shirt size. We'll send you a wonderful BGF T shirt. We'll send you a BPA free BGF water bottle. We'll send you a really cool BGF beanie. That's actually pretty, pretty cool if I don't say so myself. The shirt's cool too. Yeah, it's a tech shirt. It's not a big old cheap ass cotton shirt. It's tech shirts. You can work out in it. Anyways, Brock, you want to take this one away from itunes?

Yeah, this one's short and sweet, but I thought it was kind of timely given that we're already over an hour. So this one's from Mark in Philadelphia. He says, great job, good stuff, but Ellipses still gives us five stars. But he's got a butt in the title. And it goes like this. I like Ben and Brock a lot. They go deep on the craziest stuff. My only complaint is that the podcast is too long and filled with a lot of chit chat and rabbit holes. It is, what, about 30 minutes or less? Boys, thanks for doing all you do.

Well, if people quit writing questions in about complex topics like motor units, then maybe we'll stay at 30 minutes or less. Tell you what, if you want to write in and ask me why a Wendy's Frosty and a basket of french fries might not be all that great for you, we can do a 30 minute podcast. But if you want to get into. Into biohacking and ketosis and all that advanced crap, then we'll just go longer. But I like longer. I don't mind long podcasts. I like to listen to when I'm working out or on a walk.

Yeah, we actually got complaints when the show got too, too short. People are like, hey, what am I supposed to do for the rest of my, like three hour bike ride or whatever?

Yeah, yeah, I want one big, long, dense podcast done a lot. I mean, a lot of these, I've. I go to some of these podcasts, you know, like, I've been on a lot of them. You know, I was talking about Rogan earlier. That's like three hours that they do their show. Yeah, that's pretty long.

That's too much. But if you like really short podcasts, can I throw a plug in for.

My podcast podcast, Get Fit Guy Podcast?

Yeah.

Now plug your podcast. Go to. Go to quickanddirtytips.com and Brock has a podcast called the Get Fit Guy. I used to be the Get Fit guy and ran that podcast for about five or six years. There's a bunch of back episodes that are 10 minutes long. And now Brock does it. And it's just simple stuff like how to increase your bench press or what to do about muscle cramps or.

Yeah, my latest one was strains and strains and some yoga you can do before bed. It's fun, but it's short if you, if you're, if you're hell bent on having a short podcast. There are short podcasts out there, but I I don't feel sheepish about us going on a little bit longer in this one.

So there. Yeah, thanks for the review.

And there is a little chit chat. It's true.

All right, I. I got a shot. Shut Brock up so we can end this.

What do you. What are you doing after this, man?

You know, eat some more worms.

Yeah, I'm just trying to extend the chit chat just to piss off Mark from Philadelphia.

Put some stevia in them. Take some more worms. All right. Well, folks, thanks for listening in. We've got a doozy of an episode coming for you this weekend, so stay tuned for that one. I will keep it under wraps. You'll just have to listen in once it comes out. And in the meantime, go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com388 to grab all the wonderfulness that is in the show notes. And Brock, I'll catch you later, man.

Hot tub. Too hot in the hot tub.

You've been listening to the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast. Go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness and performance advice.

Sa.