7 Signs Your Cortisol And Adrenals Are Broken.

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Hey folks, it's Ben Greenfield here, and I'm joined today by two of the founders of a functional medicine practice called Nourish Balance Thrive. And that's@nourishbalancethrive.com the reason that I wanted to get these two folks on is because I get so many complaints from the athletes that I work with, from podcast listeners, from folks who I talk with at conferences and face to face and via email and via phone about this whole recovery issue. Not recovering as fast as you want to recover, getting pain and, you know, anything that ends with the word itis basically on almost a weekly basis during your training, feeling like you're getting tired during the day or unable to maintain the energy levels that you want to, and experiencing all these things it seems like you shouldn't actually be experiencing when you're going out and playing and doing what you love to do. And it can be frustrating. So the folks from Nourish Balance Thrive have kind of, they kind of specialize in looking into what is actually causing these type of issues, you know, whether it be the adrenal fatigue or the overtraining or the constant injuries or the inability to sleep or to recover. And the two folks who I have on the call today from Nourish Balance Thrive are Christopher Kelly, who's a pro mountain biker, a certified functional diagnostic nutrition practitioner, and a graduate of the Kalish Institute, which is one of the United States and really the world's most premier institutes when it comes to really digging into what's going on in the human body. And with him is Dr. Jamie Bush, who's also a pro mountain biker. And Jamie is board certified in family medicine and by the American Board of Integrative Holistic Medicine. So these two put together obviously don't know very much at all. And they're also probably as pro mountain bikers, not very active either. So I'm sure that they have no clue what's going on with folks when it comes to this adrenal fatigue over training issue. Right?

Right.

So let's start here, Chris, pro mountain biker, certified functional diagnostic nutrition practitioner, graduate of the Kalish Institute. What's your background? How'd you get into all this?

Well, I've been cycling my whole life, but I really became competitive in about 2008, so a little while ago. And like most people, I just went out and I rode and I just charged hard, and initially, I made some really great gains, and I got faster and started winning races and was having tons and tons of fun. But slowly but surely, I started to fall apart. My health was really suffering from the training, or at least that's what it seemed. My digestion was getting really bad, and it was taking longer and longer to recover from each workout. People were calling on me to move up, go to the next category. I just was frightened by that prospect. The races were longer in the higher categories. I just didn't feel like I could do it. And, you know, so I started looking around for solutions, and I stumbled across a book that I'm sure you've heard of, the Paleo Diet for Athletes by Joe Friel.

Yeah.

And so I'm the sort of person that can just do something cold turkey. And so I did it. You know, I ate exactly as that book described. And, you know, a lot of the things that I've been suffering from, like horrible brain fog and fatigue and inability to recover from training, you know, terrible digestion, all of that stuff, it kind of improved quite, quite dramatically. And I was quite excited by that because, you know, for the first time, I realized that this wasn't just genetics. It was like there were root causes at play here, and there was stuff that I could do.

Right.

Yeah. So, I mean, that really kind of got me interested. And I started listening to tons of podcasts and reading books, and actually, this one was one of the main podcasts that really got me into this stuff. And so, yeah, I'm glad somebody was listening. Yeah. Yeah, definitely helped me. And then, you know, I realized that I probably needed a doctor's assistance in order to get all the gains that I wanted to make. And so I went to my doctor, and, you know, it was a really frustrating process where I would describe some symptoms, like I've got allergies, or my sex drive is just completely vanished. And, you know, I would leave his office with a prescription. So, you know, with allergies, he'd say, allegra. And, you know, he tried to write me a prescription for Viagra. And I was like, well, this just doesn't seem quite right. And so I kept digging. And in the meantime, he sent me to a gastroenterologist, because really, that was my main problem was just digestion was just horrible. Just terrible bloating. And so I went to see the gastroenterologist, and she wasn't interested at all on what I was eating. I tried to tell her about the Paleo diet, and she was not interested. All she wanted to do was run some more labs, which came back with occult flecol blood. So it was actually blood in my poo. Really high elevated levels of C reactive protein. So obviously my digestion was a mess. So she said, oh, well, what you should do is a colonoscopy, and then if that comes back and confirms what we already know, then, you know, I can put you on some steroids. And my wife Julie's a food scientist, and she really understands digestion and the gut microbiota and how everything works down there. And. And she was aware of the risks of colonoscopy, and so she started doing some research and found the autoimmune Paleo protocol.

Right.

And that was about the same amount of help, again, as to standard Paleo. It really, really improved my symptoms. You know, like, that was when I really saw on labs, like, a really positive change. And, yeah, of course, that got me thinking even more. What else? And then I stumbled across, you know, a podcast by Dan Kalish and did one of his protocols. And the main and most important test that he did for me was the 205, the adrenal profile. It's a saliva test.

Okay.

Four vials. You're probably aware of it. You spit into a vial four times in one day, and it comes back with, you know, like, it defines your circadian rhythm.

So that's pretty similar to, like, the asi, the adrenal stress index.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, he ran actually five labs in total, but, you know, I'd say that one was probably the most important. And he just found I was completely burnt out. Like, not just, you know, people know that high cortisol is not good, but, you know, we've been testing a lot of people now, and it's not what we're finding. People have burned out completely. And so I had low cortisol, low testosterone, you know, low progesterone, low melatonin, low everything. I was just totally.

Wow. Now, Jamie, what role did you play in this?

So Chris and I actually met at. Through the cycling community at a bike race, and he got to talking about all of his experiences with his health and his training and his racing and recovery, or lack of recovery. And while I wasn't having overt symptoms either, because I myself race in the elite field, and I'M pretty well known nationally ranked professional mountain biker myself. I hadn't necessarily experienced near the symptoms that he had experienced, but he got to talking. He got me thinking about me and my own athletic performance. And I think as an athlete and any athlete, I think they were always looking for ways of improving our athletic performance, improving our race results in our time. He was actually the one that prompted me and convinced me to go ahead and get my hormones tested, my adrenal axes tested. Surprisingly enough, my results were a fair bit unusual. They actually came back as being. My cortisol levels being, you know, very much elevated. So in most of those individuals or athletes that come, you know, to, you know, a physician or a functional medicine doctor would be already experiencing symptoms sort of like what Chris was having. So fortunately for me, I feel like we've caught that hormonal imbalance early enough in the game that I'm able to address that problem. And this was months ago, a few months ago, and I had since been reestablishing the proper hormone balance. And I've actually seen some improvements in my own training and recovery since then. I think the important part was that we caught it before I started to get into the adrenal fatigue.

My.

And this is really interesting because my formal training is in family medicine. Indeed. And, you know, and I have also recently obtained board certification in integrative and holistic medicine. So that's sort of always focus. But my interest in functional medicine has really stemmed, you know, from my overall dissatisfaction in the present mode of healthcare delivery. As a medical doctor, I am extremely familiar with the limitations of the standard model of medical care, that is, to sort of diagnose a disease and match that disease with the corresponding drug. And as Chris described in his experiences with all the physicians that he has been through. Unfortunately, as physicians, we're typically limited in our abilities to practice, and that's based on our scope of knowledge, the way we were trained, and, of course, time constraints. Operating under this umbrella of regular, normal allopathic medicine, I found myself in my practice simply writing prescription and managing symptoms, not really ever getting to the cause, the root cause of the problem. And practicing like that was very disheartening, not only for myself, but for the patient, as Chris had described. And I think while that model of care works very well for acute diseases, trauma and emergencies, I think it sadly failed miserably in the care of chronic diseases that affect most people. And most of the patients I have treated over the years have ongoing and chronic conditions, such as digestive issues, like Chris described Allergies, hormonal imbalances, fatigue, depression, anxiety, stress, neurological problems. All these conditions that many people, Americans in particular, suffer from on a daily basis. Not just your athlete, most of those conditions can be very difficult and very often outside the realm of traditional allopathic medicine. So we just, you know, medicine, regular medicine, doctors just don't have the time to take that individualized approach to the patient. So that is one of the many reasons why I become very frustrated with our traditional approach to healthcare. I don't think it's neither healthy nor caring, and unfortunately, it's very cookie cutter. So the journey, you know, as Chris has described his journey back to optimal health, it's a wonderful example of the shortcomings of traditional medicine and why functional medicine sort of plays a role in, I think, optimal health for the individual and the athlete.

Right. Right now, in terms of this nourish, balance, thrive, practice. Is that something that you and Chris are now doing together?

Yes, indeed.

Gotcha. And tell me about this test that you're running or the kind of tests that you're running on these athletes that you're seeing who have these issues, who are coming to you with some of the issues that we've talked about.

Chris, do you want to take this question?

Yeah, sure. So the first and most important test is the Biohealth 205, the Adrenal Stress profile. So, yes, or Adrenal Stress index, it's sometimes called. It's just the name of the lab, but yeah, that's definitely the one to do first. If you're an athlete, I think really you're up against it in terms of managing stress. You're putting so much stress on your body on a daily basis, it seems almost impossible to believe that you can maintain steroid hormone balance unless you do some really special intervention to balance that stress. So, yes, a really simple test to do. You can go on and order it online yourself. You just spit into a vial four times in one day, and then we'll know exactly what's going on with your steroid hormones.

You're just basically dripping saliva into a tube four times a day, and then what do you do? Ship it off afterwards? Is it all done remotely? Like people don't actually come into your clinic or whatever. They order this test and then they ship it off.

Yeah, it's dead simple. You know, you order online, I send you the kit, you do the test. It comes with a FedEx mailer. You drop it off at FedEx, it goes to the lab, the results come back electronically. It's super simple. We'll talk on the phone, but there's really no need for us to meet in person.

Okay. Now, what kind of things are you finding out as you're testing athletes? What are the main issues that seem to be popping up?

You know, low metabolites across the board. So you've almost certainly heard of the precursor pregnenolanone. So everything that's derived from pregnelanone is usually low in someone that's been exposed to chronic stress.

So that'd be like testosterone, cortisol, everything.

Absolutely everything. Progesterone. So this is really important for health. Now, you can't really be healthy without steroid hormone balance. So it's not just important for athletic performance. If you want to perform in life, then you need steroid hormone balance.

Gotcha. Okay. Anything else that you're noticing on these results, like patterns, things of that nature?

Yeah. So what we're finding is that, especially in that early phase, I think what really happens here is there's an early phase when people are excited and really motivated that they have high cortisol. So, like Jamie, Right. So we didn't. I intervened. We didn't wait until she was burnt out for her to do this test. I actually persuaded her to do it. So that's why she's quite an unusual case. Usually people with high cortisol, it feels good. And people don't complain about feeling good. Right. And they don't want to do a test to prove that they feel good. They know it. And I think everyone goes through a phase like that. And then the high cortisol, it lowers immunity, and you pick up an infection that otherwise, you know, your immune system would normally be able to brush off. So another important test that we've been doing is a stool test. So it's not that much fun. You have to collect poo for four days and then send that. You've probably done one. And what we're finding is that these people that are burnt out, they've also got pathogens. So we're finding things like Blastocystis hominis, Cryptosporidium parvum. We found C. Difficile. I had some weird amoeba, a pinworm. I mean, the different types of parasite are quite very wide and varied, but the root cause is almost the same, which is chronic stress and lowered immunity.

Yeah, it's amazing. And I've actually seen some of that stuff myself in the gut tests that I've done. And I've interestingly, also seen in my own testing some of the things that you've talked about as far as adrenals go, especially when I'm in the throes of Ironman training in particular, you'd expect, for example, cortisol to be really high. But I think a lot of people don't realize you can get to a certain point where it drops low because you just can't make it anymore. Now, in terms of knowing if you should be doing an adrenal test like this, are there certain things qualitatively that might point out to people that, hey, you should think about doing this kind of test? I mean, you talked about bloating, you talked about fatigue. Are there a few other things that people might be feeling that would influence them to get a test like this done?

Yeah. So very low cortisol in the morning, you should feel a smooth level of energy throughout the course of the day. Even though cortisol's highest first thing in the morning and lowest at night, your perceived exertion, perceived level of energy should be the same throughout the day. And quite often what we see is people produce enough cortisol or nearly enough cortisol to get them out of bed in the mornings. But then by the afternoon, they're really struggling to get the cortisol to give them appropriate level of energy. So the afternoon is like a really common time for people to feel really tired, you know, like two, three o' clock in the afternoon. And this manifests itself. You look, start looking to food for that energy. Right. It's like kind of normally, you know, that's what you normally associate with energy. It's like eating. So people look to either sugary or salty or fatty snacks. You know, for me, you know, doing the Paleo diet, I knew that I shouldn't be eating sugar. And so nuts was like my go to snack of choice in the afternoons. You know, I just couldn't get through the afternoon without a second cup of coffee and a big old handful of nuts, you know, like, you know, something's wrong.

Wow. So once you actually get someone in and they do a test like this, what's the next step? Are you. Are you doing certain protocols?

Yeah. So the protocols, there's multiple parts to it and it involves a lot of time and energy and a relationship with you. It's like very different from the doctor's office where you just walk away with a prescription, you know, that we. I already know from personal experience that doesn't work. I can't just tell you to take a bunch of supplements because that's not going to fix this. So what we find is the best solution is a more holistic approach. So diet is definitely the first and most important part. We've been finding that the Paleo diet works the best for most people. And, you know, my wife's a food scientist. She's really good at debugging food diaries. So, you know, we get people to do a food diary, we work through it with them, we spot lots of problems. Usually there's a lot of repetition in what people are eating as it's not good. So we really, like, customize the Paleo diet to work perfectly for that individual and then, like, rest. So sleep is like the most important thing for recovering from adrenal fatigue. So it's essential that you're getting, especially as an athlete, at least eight hours of sleep. I don't know anyone that can get by on less. And selling sleep should be like selling sex. It should be really easy. And if it's not happening, then we've got some more tests that we can figure out why. And normally the cause is blood glucose dysregulation. So we're finding people with unstable blood glucose just don't sleep well. That's the next most important part. And then exercise more is not more. With athletes, that's like something we normally can't change. You know, a professional athlete, we can't tell them to, like, slow down. We just have to support them in the best way they can. We can. And then, you know, stress reduction is huge, you know, so, you know, I've heard you talk about HRV and mindfulness meditation and yoga and singing, anything. All of these things are really good at lowering cortisol, taking a load off the adrenal glands. So anything you can do, like to reduce your stress in other parts of your life will give you an additional stress budget to spend on training.

Okay, got it. So you've got these protocols that you put people through, and what have the actual outcomes been like? Like, what do you see? An immediate reversal of symptoms. Does this take weeks, months, a year? What can people expect if they. If they get a test and kind of start into these protocols?

It really varies by individual. You know, some of the supplements we're using are really effective. And, you know, you see, I sometimes get a text message from someone four hours after they've started a protocol saying, I don't know what's in this, but it's fantastic. I can't believe how much energy I've got. You know, but, you know, the truth is, it's usually if Your cortisol is super low and you're burnt out. I think realistically it's kind of a six month project to fix that. Six months? Yeah. Six to 12 months is quite typical, but it's not forever, you know, I mean, you can expect to come off supplements completely after that period of time. And then as long as you don't do whatever it did, whatever you did to get yourself into that situation in the first place, you know, you're then done with the supplements for life.

Okay.

Although I would interject and say that we have worked with a few athletes that seem to have been so adrenal fatigue that within a week or two they've been seeing results already.

Wow.

Wow.

It's definitely a long process, but some of our athletes have seen results fairly.

Quickly and sometimes they see something unexpected. You know, like they come to me with anxiety or migraines and suddenly their cramp goes away. You know, it's like, you know, that wasn't even the original goal to solve that. They thought that was just another symptom. That was just their thing. Maybe they thought they were a very fast twitch dominant athlete that just was very prone to cramp. And again, it's just not true. You improve digestive health and all of a sudden these symptoms, they just mysteriously vanish. It's fantastic.

Okay, so I'm right now, I just went over to nourishbalancethrive.com and I can get this, I'm looking right now so I can go over here. I can click on lab testing and then once I order this test, like if I want to do this for myself, would I order the. I'm looking at all the different tests that you have here. Well, I don't know. You tell me. If I'm somebody who has all these issues that we just got done talking about. There's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Looks like eight different tests here, from elemental analysis to metabolic profile to GI pathogen screen. For the folks who are kind of in the over training, stressed out type of profile, what do you recommend?

Which of these tests definitely start with the 205.

The 205. Okay. That's the one that says Adrenal Stress Profile. Bio 205.

There's really no point in you doing adrenal stress profile if you're not sure. You know, like I say, everyone's an individual. We also see on the left hand side of the website there's a free consult. You can just order that and then, you know, we can spend 20 minutes on the phone and figure out what it is that's going to work best for you. But. Okay, nice.

So somebody could just call, they go over there to Norrish Balance Thrive, do the console, and then you'll tell them where to go.

Exactly. Yeah. Some people, like, you know, if you're really into performance, like, the more tests that you do, the more information we have, the faster you can get better. So, you know, people, you know, they just don't care. They're like, you know, I'm done with this. I want to perform better. How do I do it? And so we do everything at once. We fix their diet, we reduce the stress, we do all the tests at once, we fix everything we find, and those people get the best results in the shortest period of time. Other people, they like to take it more slowly. Just do the adrenal stress profile and then see how that goes.

Got it. So as far as getting the most bang for your buck, it's that adrenal stress profile that seems to kind of be the best place to start.

It's absolutely. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. And that one's called the Biohealth 205. Awesome. Well, I mean, I get questions all the time from people about which tests to do, where to start, so this is really helpful. So go to nourishbalancethrive.com if you're listening and you want to check that out. But I actually do not want to end this podcast right now because, Chris, you actually are also doing something that's near and dear to my heart, and that is that you've been competing this year in pro mountain biking, eating a ketogenic diet, and I'm curious how that's been working out for you.

Yeah, it's been great. I have to say that listening to your podcast has been one of my inspirations, actually. I mean, I know maybe for you, like, it wasn't all completely positive, but it's just such a compelling idea. I just had to do it. Yes. I sort of graduated from being really quite sick. And I think it's important that you start this if you're going to do it. You have to be healthy first. Right. Don't try and do this. If your digestion is a mess and you're in adrenal fatigue, it's probably not the right decision.

So what's a sample day of eating look like for you? Like, if you're going to have, like, a typical training day, you know, it's.

Really not as important as it used to be. People ask me that all the time. What do you eat before a race and I'm like, it doesn't really matter because I've already got all the fuel I need on board. Right, right. You know, I start the day. What did I have today? I had like bone broth for breakfast and I had a little bit of US wellness meats in it and then like four egg yolks and then some beef tallow and some coconut oil. So like super high calorie, probably a thousand calories of mostly fat. So 80% is kind of where my cat you know as fat from, you know, by calories is an awful lot. And yeah, I've been having fantastic results with it. You know, for mountain bikes it's so, so much climbing up and down all the time. And so that's normally where the race is won and lost. And so weight is everything. It's really important to be light. And I was already pretty lean, but I got a lot lighter. Like I was 66 kilos and now I'm like 62, 63. So that's kind of a big difference for me. And yeah, just, it's fantastic in the races. I just have this incredible mental clarity that persists normally. People feel pretty good and pretty excited at the start of the race, but my mental, like my mood doesn't change throughout the course of the race. I just have less fatigue. And you have these amazing experiences when you look at people as you pass them on the second lap, like into hour two or hour three, and you look into the eyes and you just see a fog, you know, just like suffering and you know, you don't feel any different from when you were warming up.

It's just like I experienced the same thing when I did especially Ironman Canada last year in full on Ketosis. Like I was, I was motoring on through that 112 mile bike ride and you know, as one of the first age groupers off the bike and most of that happened in like the last 30 miles where I was just passing people right and left and felt like I was, I was on jet fuel. It's pretty crazy.

It's great. You know, I watch people reach for their back jersey pocket for another gel and that's like my kind of cue to pass.

Yeah, you're like, I got lots of, lots of gels on board in the form of adipose tissue.

Exactly, yeah.

Cool. Well, this is really fascinating stuff and I would encourage folks to go over to nourishbalancethrive.com I mean, if anything, just do a consult, figure out what it is, like what direction is going to be right for you. And Chris and Jamie, I want to thank you guys for your time and for coming on the call and kind of walking people through all of this.

Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you for having me, Ben. It's like a real privilege to be on the show because, you know, I've learned so much from you. It's, like, super cool to be on.

That's great. Very cool. All right, folks. Well, until next time, this is Chris, Jamie and Ben signing out for from BenGreenfieldFitness.com be sure to check out NorrisHbalance.com and have a great week.

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