A Day In The Life Of Some Of The Top Athletes On The Face Of The Planet: How To Train For The NFL Combine.

In this episode of the Ben Greenfield.

Fitness show, for every athlete and every individual that comes through the doors at Exos, everyone gets an individualized plan and an individualized nutrition prescription for their training program, their body weight and their body composition goals.

They may be pulled from being able to participate by the NFL, not even of their own volition. They may say, hey, you know what? We found something. We don't want you to run, we don't want you to jump, we don't want you to do anything. So it really is an intense four days where the information that the NFL collects even right there and then they'll put to use right away to determine whether a guy should participate or not. He's an expert in human performance and nutrition, voted America's top personal trainer and one of the globe's most influential people.

In health and fitness.

His show provides you with everything you need to optimize physical and mental performance. He is Ben Greenfield.

Power, speed, mobility, balance, whatever it is for you, that's the natural movement.

Get out there.

When you look at all the studies done, studies that have shown the greatest efficacy.

All the information you need in one place right here, right now on.

The Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast. Hey, folks, it's Ben Greenfield here. And if you live in America and happen to be a football fan, this week might be a pretty big week for you. If you happen to be interested in things like human performance, human nutrition, optimizing the human body and getting the most out of the body and the brain, then this week might also be a pretty big week for you, even if you didn't know it. Because right now, some of the top athletes on the face of the planet from the National Football League are preparing at something called the NFL Combine. And in today's show, I've got two people, a sports performance dietitian and a performance specialist who are there at the NFL combine and who work with the athletes who are there. So we're going to get to dig into the full nitty gritty a day in the life of what it looks like to actually wake up, train, do pt, do recovery, all the personalized and individualized nutrition programs, how these athletes sleep, everything they do to ensure that they perform at their very best at a combine. And I'm guessing you're going to get some pretty good advice for yourself, even if you're not a professional athlete. So my guests today are, first of all, Michelle Riccardi. She's a registered dietitian and a sports performance dietitian. She's got over 18 years of experience working with professional and elite athletes. NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA, PGA, NCAA, international athletes, Olympic athletes, tactical athletes, even firefighters. She also serves on the mentorship education team for a company called exos. And EXOS is a sports nutrition and a sports training company that works with some of the top athletes on the face of the planet, both online as well as via a bunch of facilities that they have spread across the globe. My other guest is Dennis Logan and Dennis is a performance specialist. He also works with the Exos Athletes Performance Team and, and he serves as a performance specialist in terms of assisting athletes with more of the training side of things. Prior to working with Exos, he was a strength coach at Aviator Sports Performance in New York. He has an Ms. In fitness and Health management from the US Sports Academy. So he's kind of the training side of things and Michelle is kind of the nutrition side of things. And I'm guessing that I probably don't need to work too much on our guest having to tell your guys voices apart, which I sometimes run into. So Michelle, say hello.

Hi.

Hello Dennis. Welcome to the call, man.

Thank you. It's good to be here.

All right, so for people who perhaps are not football fans, shame on them. Can you explain what goes on at the NFL Combine? What's this thing all about?

So the NFL Combine essentially is a week long event that's set up for all of the NFL teams to get an opportunity to interact with 330 college football College players that have specifically been invited to go there. And essentially what it does is it gives them an opportunity to interview the kids, do a medical background check on the kids, and then also the kids. And I'm using kids. I mean, they're young men.

Yeah, I was going to say these guys don't look like kids.

Yeah, yeah, they're, they're definitely not kids. But they also then participate in a number of different events that are selected or have been selected to get an idea of what their athletic ability is and to see what kind of strength qualities they possess that should transfer over to football. So it's a week long event where the players are essentially broken up into groups depending upon position and then yeah, they go through the whole process.

All right, let's get nitty gritty, man. What are they getting tested on? What are the main kind of like protocols or crucibles one goes through during the testing at the NFL Combine?

Yeah, so if you were to look at the days when they come in on day one, they'll essentially go through a baseline medical check. Right. So they'll be taken over to medical mri, X rays to stress tests to be able to get that information done. Day two is when the team.

So you mean, you mean like a cardiac stress test? They may.

They may, depending upon what they find. Yeah. We've had a couple athletes over the years. Yeah. Have something show up which again, is positive. Right. Like, that's the interesting thing. Like, a lot of the kids will stress about it because, you know, nobody wants to go in and have something medical ding them. I mean, and when I say not even them, I mean anybody. Right. Like, I think the worst fear that anybody has when they go to the doctor is that something will show up that is, you know, a big deal. But at the same time, there's some positive in that. So, yeah, there are stress tests that will, that will allow to be able to find if there's something cardiac related or. I mean, we even had one of our athletes, they. They found lymphoma and they were able to, you know, start that early. And he's playing now.

So are they, are they doing blood tests as well on this day before everything starts?

Yeah, absolutely. Blood tests, you name it. They are running these kids, they're running these young men through the gamut. And I mean, that's like you said, that's day one, day two, the teams then have their doctors. So now each team will have their doctor do an orthopedic assessment on the athletes so that the teams know what they want to look for. So again, these young men may be in a room surrounded by 12 or 15 different doctors that all get their opportunity to push, pull, do whatever they need to do to see if they can provoke or discover something that they may not have been able to find.

The day before when we're talking about blood tests. And I know, Michelle, you're more of like a nutritionist, so perhaps you could speak to the biochemistry a little bit. So I'm curious what's being tested? I mean, we see companies like Wellness fx, for example, who works with exos. I mean, they're testing everything from like thyroid antibodies to free testosterone to not just HSCRP inflammatory markers, but also things like cytokines or homocysteine. I mean, do you know what kind of protocol these NFL athletes are getting tested for? Is it just like a basic blood test or are they really diving in? I mean, because obviously they're about to spend a lot of money on an athlete if they wind up, you know, if a team selects a certain athlete, for example.

I know the blood work that we draw within our facility for our athletes. But I don't know what blood panels are being drawn at the NFL combine on the particular athletes.

Okay, gotcha. So for you guys, what kind of stuff would you look at?

Sure. So we do look at a lipid panel. We do look at markers of inflammation, such as the hscrp. We look at fatty acid profiles as well as liver health, kidney health, electrolytes, metabolic health. So looking at insulin, hemoglobin, A1C, glucose levels, their TSH levels, metabolic hormones, so things like the cortisol, insulin, insulin, like growth hormone, even hormone levels. So they're free. Testosterone, total testosterone, dhea.

Gotcha.

And of course, the micronutrients as well.

How much do you guys think that this is taken into consideration? Do you think that the NFL is actually pouring over these blood testing results to look into the longevity of an athlete or the potential of an athlete as far as whether or not they may get sick, whether or not they've got high levels of inflammation? Or do you think that most of the attention is just paid to things that Dennis. I'm sure we'll get into here in a second, like vertical leap or bench press.

Well, I think, again, speaking on the approach that we take inside our facility might be a different approach than what they're looking at when they're drawing the blood at the NFL combine, because again, I'm not familiar with what panels they're specifically drawing there when we're drawing our blood work. It's truly in the best interest of like, where's your health status now? And if there's improvements we can make during the time that you're training with us, then let's make those interventions to see if we can make those improvements during the time that you're here. And even if you're with us for a short period of time, what sort of path can we get you on to get you towards the best outcome?

Gotcha. Okay, cool. So. So Dennis, these athletes, like, it sounds like the first day it's all doctors, it's all stress testing, and then it moves on to the. To the performance protocols that they're getting tested on. Can you highlight what it is that. That they're actually testing?

Yeah. So days three and four are your performance based tests. Day three is going to be 225 bench test. Day four is going to include all of the field testing. So the Marquis event, of course, is the 40 yard dash. Surrounding the 40 yard dash, you're going to have the broad jump, vertical jump, you're going to have the 20 yard shuttle, you're going to have 60 yard shuttle, and then you're going to have what you call the three cone drill. So those are going to be the main field tests that are done. And then around those field tests they'll have position specific work that they do. So days three and four are definitely dedicated towards seeing what kind of performance the guys can numbers they can put up. Days one and two are going through all the medical checks to even see if the guy should qualify for performing on days three and four. So that's the other thing. If something pops up, which has happened before, something pops up on days one and two, they may be pulled from being able to participate by the NFL, not even of their own volition. They may say, hey, you know what? We found something. We don't want you to run, we don't want you to jump, we don't want you to do anything. So it really is an intense four days where the information that the NFL collects, even right there and then at the NFL combine, they'll put to use right away to determine whether a guy should participate or not.

What would be an example of something that would just pull somebody from participation?

Very interesting. A few years ago we had an athlete that didn't know that they had a fractured foot. And that was, you know, one of the things. When they realized that during the X rays they found that the athlete had a fractured foot, there was a lot of discussion about whether he would continue or not. We had an athlete this year that had suffered a shoulder injury in the bowl game, coming in, rehabbed, was cleared by us, was able, had done all of his training and was able to participate. And when they did, when they did the MRIs, they said, you know what? We don't want you to participate. And he didn't. So there definitely are scenarios that come up where from an orthopedic standpoint, you know, they say, you know what, it's against your best interest, continue to go home, rehab, do what you need to do, and at your pro day do this stuff. But the last thing we would want is for anything to happen here. And they make that call and you know they're pulled from it.

Yeah, it always amazes me when I've watched the combine on television or online. And I'll put a link, by the way, for those of you listening in. You can go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com combine if you want to access the show notes and the stuff that we talk about today. But it always amazes me how some of these Guys move. I mean, we've got big people that literally move like cats. When I was in college, I did an internship for four months with the Kansas City Chiefs, and I worked with Will Roaf, big, big guy. And he's retired now, but I remember when I'd put him through his footwork drills, and we did work in the pool because he was doing a little bit of knee rehab, and of course, we did work in the gym. How fast a guy like that actually moves, and it's quite amazing. If you're listening and you haven't actually had a chance to see the combine, it always knocks my socks off when I. When I see what these guys do. And what I'm curious about, you know, for you guys when you're there at the combine, I'm curious what's going on in terms of a day in the life of an athlete like that who is preparing for peak performance. So I want to kind of have Michelle dig into some of the nutrition stuff, and perhaps Dennis dig into some of the physical training stuff, and perhaps you can start, Michelle. But in terms of these athletes nutrition, their diets, getting them dialed in, so to speak, for performance at the combine, what kind of things are you doing and how are you working with these athletes? Are you an independent contractor that an athlete brings in? Are you working with specific athletes that have hired you? Are you working with the NFL or what's your role? And then go ahead and delve into to what you're doing from a nutrition standpoint.

Sure. So I work as a. For exos. So any of the athletes that come in to train at an EXOS facility, regardless of which location that they're at, they're going to be working with the sports dietitian at that facility, the performance specialists, the physical therapy team, the massage therapy team, and all the support that comes with working at the EXOS facility. Yeah. So.

And those facilities are pretty amazing. I've visited. And by the way, for those of you listening in, I'm on the board of advisors for exo, so I work with them in terms of, like, for example, their development of supplements, and mostly some of, like, the supplement lines that they do, like the multivitamin or the creatine or their fueling supplements that they come out with. So that's kind of my role with exos. But, Michelle, I know that you're working there at the EXOS facilities, which, if you are listening and you happen to have a chance to visit one, I highly recommend it because you're going to see some pretty crazy Things, especially in terms of personalization and individualization. I'm curious to hear more about that, Michelle, because I remember when I was at the EXOS facility, every athlete walked out of the gym and there was a little cup there with the specific variation of colored capsules that they were to take and the exact macronutrients in their shake for protein, for creatine, for carbohydrates, everything. How is that determined? And then how do you set that up and implement that, especially at something like the combine?

Sure. So for every athlete and every individual that comes through the doors at Exos, everyone gets an individualized plan and an individualized nutrition prescription for their training program, their body weight, and their body composition goals. So day one, they will meet with me first thing in the morning, and we get some baseline measurements on them. You know, their body weight, their height, their body composition. I take circumference measurements. I get a background of their medical history, if there's any pertinent information I need to know. And again, you know, we'll get some blood work done on them during their first week as well. From the information that I gather during that first initial evaluation with me, I put together an individual plan for each athlete. And again, I'm getting athletes that range from, you know, 170 pounds up to, you know, 332 pounds. And every athlete truly does get an individual plan. Some guys need to put on 15 pounds. Some guys need to lose 22 pounds. And so, based on the strength and conditioning program and the movement program that the athletes are doing, I have to make an assessment on what their energy output is for that program so I can fuel that movement and fuel putting on that lean mass to support performance.

Okay, gotcha. So when you're putting together the actual fueling programs, is it all like meal replacement shakes, or are you using real food?

Real food. And that's another great thing about the EXOS facilities. Once I put together their calorie level, within that calorie level, I put in the grams of carbohydrate, the grams of protein, the amount of fat they're going to be taking in. I do that on grams per kilogram of body weight and lean body mass that they're carrying. And we have a chef that works inside our facility. We have an Exos cafe within our facility, and I work with that chef, and she has a phenomenal staff as well.

I've been to it. It's good food.

Yeah. So if I say, oh, well, this individual needs, you know, x amount of grams of carbohydrate protein and fat. They will create the menu specific to that portion and macronutrient breakdown for that athlete.

How are you, if I could delve into this a little bit more thoroughly, are you looking at blood work? Are you looking at genetic testing? Like, what are the main variables that you're feeding into that individualized plan?

Well, again, after that first assessment, I have their body weight and body composition, and I'm knowing that they're going into training X amount of hours per day. So other calorie level, depending on how much they're taking in. So let's say an individual is going to be taking in. I'm just kind of throwing this number out there. 3,900 calories a day, you know, of that 3,900 calories a day, I give the breakdown of carbohydrate, protein and fat. And then that gets brought to life by the feeding times and fueling that takes place during the day. So they're going to come in, they're going to get a breakfast, and that breakfast is going to contain X amount of calories. And of that calorie allotment, how many grams of carb protein and fat?

Yeah, that makes sense in terms of carb, fat and protein percentages. But like, if you've got, let's say an athlete who comes from, I don't know, a Samoan or a South Pacific Islander or something like that, versus a Northern European athlete, are you tweaking fat, protein and carbohydrate percentages? Are you looking at perhaps liver albumin levels and lowering protein? If blood urea nitrogen or creatinine is high, are you looking at things along those lines as well?

If I have that information available, then I will make those adjustments. For example, I have had athletes come in that are type 1 diabetic, for example, and I have to organize their carbohydrate intake throughout the day based on insulin, they're taking, medications that they're taking, as well as keeping in mind that their energy output is using glucose as a fuel. So those individualizations will be made for the athletes if that data is available and if it applies to the athlete. No, I think we're pretty lucky in that we get really great, healthy athletes who are really motivated to be there to make those adjustments to get the best performance outcomes possible.

Yeah, I know that Wellness fx and they work closely with exos. They've recently come out with microbiome and genomics and some pretty expansive blood protocols. I can tell you that I think the future of customized Nutrition for athletes is going to use a lot of that data to really delve into it hardcore. Whether or not an athlete needs to be on a plant based ketotic diet versus a high carb diet, et cetera. And then of course, there's a supplementation. What do you guys do in terms of supplementation? Are you primarily like all those little cups that have the pills and stuff in them? How's that work?

So again, so I have to determine they're going to get. These guys need a lot of calories, so there's a lot coming in from food. So their fueling pans that I put together, they're eating six to seven times per day. But it's not so much about eating a meal, it's more about fueling the body, hydrating the body and recovering the body. So they come in, they're gonna eat their breakfast, then they're gonna head into their first session of the morning. They're gonna get a pre workout, what we call a shooter. And that's amino acids. And then from there after that, is.

That like the exos aminos, the essential amino acids or branched chain amino acids?

Yes, they're getting the exos amino acids. So it's essential amino acids. That includes the branched chain amino acids in it.

Gotcha. Okay.

And then after, during that training session, again, their focus is on the hydration. During that training session, they're very good at weighing in and weighing out before and after each of their training sessions. So they can track their sweat losses and making sure that they're rehydrating based on their sweat losses. So they use a combination of water and the exos catalyte electrolyte solution.

Okay. Gotcha. So in that shooter, that pre workout shooter, is it just aminos? That's it.

Just the amino end. Just the aminos.

Pre workout, how many amino acids does an athlete get? Does it depend on their size?

We do make adjustments in size for the amino acids. It's a basic two scoops of the exos amino acids pre workout. But I take into consideration size for things that we do with the post workout recovery shake, which includes things like glutamine, creatine, a certain amount of protein and carbohydrate within that shake. And that's based off of body size and lean body mass.

Okay, gotcha. Cool. And in terms of that post workout nutrition, are you looking at whether or not an athlete actually has another workout coming up that day? And the reason I asked that question is I recently had Mark Sisson on a podcast. I Don't know if you're familiar with Mark, but he highlighted how he'll often not fuel immediately in that post workout window because of some research that shows enhanced testosterone and growth hormone if one maintains a little bit of a fasted state post workout. And that the only reason to fuel post workout would be if you're working out again within say like the next eight hours. Do you guys incorporate any fasting or intermittent fasting or anything like that? Or are you just pretty much feeding these guys 247 for this particular group.

And the nature of the training program that they're going through, because they are going through morning sessions, afternoon sessions that include movement correctives, lifts as well as additional movement work with position coaches. So they're doing a lot of movement, they need a lot of calories, so it is small feedings throughout the day. They do get a recovery nutrition prescription after their morning and afternoon sessions. But that's part of the caloric plan. It's part of their macronutrient plan. So it's worked into the plan.

Gotcha. Okay, cool. So in, in terms of any additional supplementation, are you doing anything there at the combine or with the athletes that you work with, you know, apart from pre, during and post workout, like, is there specific morning protocols that they're using? Multivitamins, creatine, stuff like that?

Yes, absolutely. We give them the exos, am, PM multivitamin elite. So when they come in for their breakfast, while they're eating their food, they take their AM multivitamin at that time. And it's a unique formula again because it's got the curcumin in there, which is known for its antioxidant and anti inflammatory properties, assistant healing, if any inflammatory conditions. It also has a little bit of the green tea in there which is helping with the body's normal inflammatory response. And then when they get their dinners again, they're there. These athletes are there all day with training and movement and PT and massage and recovery and cold tub. It's really worked into the program throughout the day. When they leave at night, they get their dinner to go with them. And with that dinner they get their PM multivitamin that they'll take before bed. And the unique factor that PM multivitamin is the relora that's in that PM multivitamin.

Okay, gotcha. So in terms of like, you know, fish oil, L, carnitine, beta alanine, stuff like that, is that just all individualized based on the athlete's needs?

It is individualized and we do give athletes The Epadha fish oil and we do give them beta alanine as well.

Okay, so you guys are pretty much. It sounds like just about anything that Exos has designed from a supplementation standpoint, you're shoving down these athletes throats in varying amounts based on their size to just get the most into them that you can.

It is based off of their size and it is based off of the need as well. I know if there's something going on with someone where they can't take something or if they don't want to take it, we can make those adjustments. But if it's been assessed that it's going to help with their performance, then we can educate them on it and work it into their.

So you could put extra. Like I know you guys have a standalone curcumin phytosome. You could throw that extra into an athlete who's really beat up.

Sure. So if someone's injured and you know, if PT has, you know, wondering, is there anything extra that we can do to help manage this inflammation? And that's something that we could do from the curcumin or the EPA dha.

Okay, gotcha. Now, Dennis, I want to return back to what the day in the, in the life of an athlete looks like from a preparation standpoint for all of these different shuttle runs, you know, bench pressing, dashes, vertical leaps that they're doing during the combine. What kind of tricks are you using to get the most out of an athlete from a recovery and a preparation standpoint for things like that? What are your biggest go to's?

Yeah, you know, I would hate to call them tricks. I think, I think the key element, like you said, is going to be recovery from the onset.

Right.

So our physical therapy team plays a huge role in the process because. So we're getting these guys right after the season and a lot of them right after a bowl game, they're coming in banged up. We've got eight weeks. For those that are not going to the East West Shrine or the Senior bowl and haven't played in the national championship, we get eight weeks. If you've played in the national championship, have gone to the East West Shrine bowl or the Senior bowl, we're probably getting you for six weeks, which isn't a whole lot of time to get a lot of work in and then have them recover in time to at the NFL combine. If we're looking at January 1st being an entry date in the NFL combine, traditionally being the last week of February, you're looking at about a five to eight week training window. So again, the key thing that we said is these guys not only passing medical, but being healthy enough to compete in those two days from the bench press all the way to when they're done with position work. So the physical therapy integration with physical therapy is huge. And I'd say that that's where a large part of the individualization in the programming comes from. Every guy is going to come in with something a little bit different. They're going to be different sizes, different positions, they're going to have different injuries. But them participating is going to be, you know, is going to require them being as healthy as possible. So from dry needling to cupping to now using the voodoo bands to be able to help with mobility, we utilize anything that we can to help with tissue and fascial health.

Okay.

To accelerate that as quickly as possible. Reestablishing mobility, reestablishing tissue health is gonna be huge for us. So those are some of the modalities that you'll see used by our physical therapy team across the board, aside from, you know, or in conjunction with, I should say, your basic barrel rollers for, you know, for foam rolling, accu rollers or acupoints for trigger point techniques, and then hydrotherapy, hot and cold plunging, both post workout and any kind of workouts we do in the pool to make sure that we're able to put in a training stimulus, but then aid these guys in recovering. Aside from all the nutrition elements that Michelle just spoke about, recovery really is the most critical element that we find in these guys performing at the highest level. And we're going to utilize all these things to be able to get them as healthy as possible.

Right, gotcha. Let's delve into the nitty gritty of some of that dry needling and acupuncture. When would you use that in an athlete? Is that like a daily preventive measurement or are you using that on specific strains and sprains?

I would say that it's more acute. Yeah. So if there's a strain or a sprain that they've come in with, or if there's something that they experience in training. Right. So if they come in with a particular injury and there's a high level of inflammation, knees, ankles, shoulders, dry needling is something that our therapists will use pretty extensively to help aid in the recovery process. And then, yeah, if the guys experience something while they're going through it, if they are, if there's a calf strain or if there is a hamstring strain, or if, you know, getting the hip flexors to relax. Because a lot of these guys will come in with tight hip flexors. Dry kneeling is something that will be done. I'd say that.

What's the difference between dry kneeling and acupuncture?

Dry needling is going to be a bit more of a specific application. So if you came in and you had a hamstring strain, right, so you were out there, you were running and you said, oh, man, I felt my hamstring tighten up. The dry needling, the needles will be applied directly to the area where you feel the specific strain. Acupuncture, as far as I understand, is on a bit more of a meridian type of application, meaning that we understand that there's specific points that will affect parts of the body and so the needles will be applied to those points. So I would say that dry needling, or my understanding is that dry needling is going to be a bit more specific to what you experience. That hurt, that's what we'll attack. That hurt. That's where we're going to create the recovery process. Whereas with acupuncture, it's a bit more of understanding where the nerves need to be affected.

Gotcha. How often would you do something like that? Like, if people are listening in and they've got, you know, obviously a lot of the things that professional athletes are doing, these are the things that are working, right? There's not a lot of woo, woo going on. And so in terms of frequency, like if somebody's listening and they've got it, band friction syndrome or plantar fasciitis or something like this, are these athletes getting things like dry needling and acupuncture daily? Is that a weekly thing? Like, how does that work?

So I would say that if you're looking at it through the course of a week, they'll probably have two to three sessions a week because again, you're creating an inflammatory response. You're going to want some time for there to be some recovery from it. So it's not going to be something that is done daily, but it is something that can be done twice a week. Now, is it going to be done twice a week for the eight weeks that they're there? Hopefully not, because hopefully they're recovering faster than that. Right. So I'd say from my own personal experience, and from what I see, you're going to see dry needling applied especially to, like, a specific area or injury. It's probably going to take two to three weeks. On the high end, I've seen it use less than that on the low end, where we're starting to get those results and not needing it to take that long. So it's not something that's done every day. It's a pretty aggressive technique that's used.

What about voodoo bands? What are those and how would those be used?

So Voodoo bands are long elastic bands that apply compression. Compression and pretty deep compression to a particular area. They're done to help drive, again, some fluid into a particular muscle area that will help with fascial health. It works acutely and it allows for mobility. So you'll see that they're wrapped around either a joint or a muscle group. And what's great is that it then allows the athlete or the person to go through a particular movement while they have the compression equipment like Normatec, which also applies compression, which is great for recovery, but it essentially, for lack of a better word, immobilizes you. It really is part of a recovery thing where you can go through the movement. The Voodoo band allows you to go through the movement while there's compression, which will help with mobility. That's something that we'll see our guys do either pre or post workout, usually pre workout, because we're going to want them to have that mobility before they go into a lift or movement. And it's something that can be done really quickly. It can be applied on and it can be put on and off really fast. And essentially at any joint or muscle group in the body.

Yeah, yeah. It's in Kelly Starrett's book Becoming a Supple Leopard, he talks about flossing the joint. I actually recently posted a video to the Ben Greenfield Fitness Facebook page in which I'm flossing my shoulder and mobilizing my shoulder with traction and with one of these bands. And I swear by it. I just have one up on my living room table. And when I wake up in the morning, if I need to floss anything, I do it. I combine that with foam rolling with a lot of those foam rollers that have acupressure points that you talked about, like the rumble roller. And I swear by that as a morning protocol. So I love the idea of the voodoo bands. You also. I know that you guys use some cold and some heat, don't you?

Yeah. So hydrotherapy is also big. Right. So we'll use Game Ready's when again, we want to apply, like, specific compression with some cold temperature. And then we've got a cold tub and a hot tub when we're looking for cold water or hot water immersion for our guys. As well. So we keep our cold tub between 50 and 55 degrees, keep our hot tub between 105 to 110 degrees. And depending upon what time of the day it is, when the session is, we'll either have the guys do just a straight cold tub, cold water immersion, or we'll have them do a hot and cold contrast, depending upon what effect we're looking for. So we do utilize those a lot. Those the guys will do some type of hydrotherapy, either just straight cold tub, cold water immersion, or hot and cold contrast twice a day after each lift.

Gotcha. Gotcha. So in terms of like, timing, if somebody's listening in and they wanted to use that kind of hot cold contrast technique, what would be a sample scenario? If someone just has like an ice tub or a really cold bath at home and then access to a hot tub or a hot shower, what would be something they could do?

Yeah, when we're looking at creating greater levels of circulation. So after, like a really intense metabolic lift, we'll do a hot and cold contrast to help promote circulation. When we're looking at a really intense lift in terms of the weight, so intensity, if it's more of a nervous system lift, we'll do just a straight cold water immersion workout. We're looking for our guys, when it comes to cold water immersion, to spend at least 10 minutes in the cold water. We'll work our way up to that. The tolerance will take some time, but ultimately that's where we want to be able to progress to the nervous. The cold water is going to help not only with localizing the blood flow to the areas that we use. Right. Because all of the water, all of the blood is going to go to a particular muscle group with the cold water. Right. It's going to get more proximal. We also know that it helps with nervous system recovery. So following our max effort days, right, our maximal strength days, we're going to make sure that cold water immersion, cold tub work is going to be the priority. Following our heavy metabolic days, we're going to do a combination of hot and cold contrast where we're going to want them to spend more time. Again in the cold, then in the hot, we're looking at like a three to one ratio. And again, 10 minutes on the low end, upwards of 15 minutes with that contrast.

Now, Dr. Rhonda Patrick has done a lot of research on like, cold thermogenesis and cold therapy, and she mentioned recently in a paper she published on cold therapy that immediate use of like a cold pool can Actually shut down the hormetic response to something like strength training and inhibit the ability to produce strength or produce responses to strength training. So are you guys avoiding, like, immediate cold immersion?

I wouldn't say we're immediate. I'd want to know the time frame. I would say that post workout to when the guys are in the cold tub could be anywhere from 15 to 20 minutes. Right. So are they walking directly off the floor and getting into the tub? Not the case. There's going to be a bit of transition time again with the amount of work that these guys are doing on the other end. I'm not entirely sure how concerned we are about how much of a decrease in their strength output they're going to experience by spending that kind of time in the tub. It's something that we do talk about. It's something that we. We definitely discuss. Again, we also wonder, you know, what does that do to digestion as well? Like, do these guys drink their shake before, after, or in the tub? Because does, you know, does being in the cold water slow down the digestive process? We're not, you know, we consider all these things, but at the end of the day, what we've seen is, is that it has more of a beneficial effect to the guys, even if it's from a placebo standpoint that the guys feel better and we're not seeing decreases in their strength when we go into the weight room to really let the research completely rule the decisions that we make. Yeah, these are the discussions that we have at this time of the year. Every year the combine is over. And we're saying, all right, going into next year, based on what we've either seen, heard, or read, do we want to keep this? Do we want to keep that? And cold water immersion always comes up and we always kind of return to, you know what? We haven't seen enough anecdotally to sway not doing this. And we've seen more beneficial effects with the guys and their response to it, to where we keep it in. And I think when we start seeing dramatic decreases in their performance and we're wondering where it's coming from, that we'll probably consider it a bit more then, but we just haven't seen it.

Yeah. And what I've done since seeing some of that research is I'll still do cold immersion and I'll still use antioxidants or anti inflammatories like curcumin, for example, which some research shows may also blunt the hormetic response to exercise. But I've Been just keeping it a little bit separate from the exercise session. Meaning like hard strength training session in the afternoon would mean it's perhaps later on in the evening that I'm going to do like a cold hot contrast or anything intense from a cold immersion standpoint or that would be the period of time, several hours later that I might take some kind of anti inflammatory or antioxidant. So my body essentially stays slightly inflamed for a certain period of time after the workout. So. And Michelle, I'm curious, are you interested in any of that when it comes to antioxidants and spacing out antioxidants in terms of their, their timing with regard to an athlete finishing a workout?

Well, for us again immediately post workout, I'm more focused on getting in a certain amount of macronutrients post workout. And we're really looking at, based on what some of the studies show is pushing the body from the catabolic state and moving it over from an anabolic state. So depending on how that body's responded to that training session and depending on how depending depleted the body became during that training session. You know, we want to help, you know, if there's high cortisol, depressed immune system, you know, increased breakdown of muscle and liver glycogen, we want to push that over to, you know, bring down the cortisol, bring up the insulin levels, help replenish the muscle and liver glycogen and help stimulate new muscle protein synthesis. And so we do that again with post workout carbohydrates and protein and hydration.

Okay, gotcha. Well, but are you avoiding like high dose vitamin C or curcumin or antioxidants like that post workout?

Yeah, it's not necessarily a part of the prescription that we use right now. It's literally we look at a certain amount of carbohydrate to protein post workout based on their lean body mass.

Yeah. The more research I see on this idea of not blunting the hormetic response to a workout, the more I get convinced that sometimes an athlete just needs to finish up a workout. And unless they're again working out again in a certain period of time, kind of almost be hard on themselves. It's something I've been doing with myself and some of the athletes I work with. And I'm curious to see how all of that evolves as sports nutrition and training progresses. But speaking of recovery, I wanted to ask you about sleep. What are some of the things you guys are doing in terms of maximizing sleep, whether at the combine, or in the buildup to the combine when it comes to sleep and downtime. And I'll just jump in here. Dennis, why don't you go first?

Yeah. So specifically at the combine, there's. There's very little we can do other than what's interesting. I don't think people understand just how demanding the combine experience is from a time management standpoint or the lack thereof that these men have. I don't think people realize that these guys are interviewing with teams as late as midnight and being woken up to be drug tested as early as 4am following that. Right. And again, that's nothing that we have control over because they are sequestered by. From us at a particular point in time. Right. So when they stay at the hotel that they stay in, it is only. They are the only ones allowed to be at that hotel. So they're sequestered from everybody. So if they are interviewing until midnight and they come and see us because they want post. You know, they want nutrition before they go because they haven't eaten in hours, which they'll come and do once they leave our doors and they go over to the Crowne Plaza Hotel, they can be woken up at 3am, 4am, 5am or they may not sleep. A lot of these guys may be so anxious that they don't get any sleep, and there's nothing that we can do about it other than hopefully develop healthy habits or help them develop healthy habits while they're with us at an EXOS facility, which is essentially what we try and do. Right. So we've got areas within our facilities where they can nap during the day. So after PT or between their workouts. A lot of the guys, if you come into our facilities, they're fast asleep on a couch in one of our areas. Trying to reinforce those healthy habits. Sleep habits when they leave is something that we try to do. But as far as providing them with sleep aids, outside of things like Binaural Beats or anything they can listen to that help them go to sleep, really, education is where we go with it and try to prepare them at least with this information of what they. The comma will be like, and then you're gonna need as much sleep.

So you guys do use stuff like Binaural Beats?

Yeah, absolutely, we do. It's something that we utilize with all of our athletes that experience some type of sleep disorders. Yeah, we do.

Do you have, like, a specific app that you use for stuff like that?

I would have to. Honestly, I'd have to get the name for you. Not off the top of my head, but I can.

Yeah, if you email it to me, I'll add to the show notes for sure.

Absolutely.

Now, I talked with a guy named Nick Littlehales. We interviewed him on a podcast, and he works with Real Madrid, the soccer team over in Europe. And he talked about doing things like customized sleep kits for the athletes he works with, where he'll provide them with specialized bedding and blue light blocking glasses and even travel blackout curtains, stuff like that. Are these athletes at the point yet in their career where they're incorporating things like that?

I would argue that they're not. And I would also say the interventions that we're able to provide in that regard outside of education is pretty difficult. Right. We only have them for six to eight weeks. If we were traveling with them and they were on our team full time, I think we'd have greater latitude to do things like that. But. But the reality of it, again, is we are contracted to prepare them to do certain things for six to eight weeks. When they come back to us as professionals, I think we have a greater ability to affect them in that way. But this is a really, really unique and intense, intense six to eight weeks where there's only so much we can get into them from an education standpoint, as crazy as that sounds.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, if either of you. Because I know we're starting to come up against time, I have a question. If either of you could choose, like, the top thing that you think flies under the radar when you're working with these athletes, something that doesn't get talked about enough, but that from either a nutrition or a training or a supplementation or recovery standpoint is being used at the combine or in the lead up to it, what would you say you would actually choose?

We might have different things to add in this area. I know on the nutrition end for the athletes, I'm updating their nutrition daily and weekly for a lot of the athletes as their body transforms. And for many of them, in the six to eight weeks that we have, their body transforms a lot. And as the programming changes, I adjust their nutrition programming along with it. So, for example, if I have. I had a defensive tackle, for example, who came in and trained from us, he came in at almost 332 pounds with a goal of losing 20 pounds by the time he weighed in at combine. So I was adjusting his nutrition plan weekly to do that and checking in with him daily. On top of that, redoing the baseline measurements I took on day one. I repeat that every Three weeks. And that includes their body composition, circumference measurements, transformation pictures, usg, hydration testing just to make sure that their body's on track for performance, regardless if their goal is to lose 20 pounds or to put on 15 pounds of weight.

Right, got it. So it's more just like constant monitoring, mm.

And feedback and input. So I like the athletes to have some input on what they're doing too. So they get, you know, the option, you know, what kind of flavor fruit in protein powder would you like post workout for your meals? What are your favorite protein sources? What are your favorite, you know, fruits and vegetables? We can work that into their plate so they can kind of see the reason of what they're getting on their plates and how that's affecting their performance. And for many of them, because this is still very, very new to them, this is the first time they've really applied nutrition and hydration and sleep and recovery into a performance viewpoint. For some of them, it's very, very new. So as Dennis mentioned, that six to eight weeks we have, you know, we only get so much time with them, but this is a lot for them to learn and it is pretty intensive paired with everything else and all the other demands that are being placed on their body.

Gotcha. Do you use any self quantification devices like calorie monitoring, step monitoring, things like that to be able to make those tweaks on the fly?

I just do daily assessments of my own.

Cool. What about you? What about you, Dennis?

I'd say the recovery side and we nailed, I think, in bringing up the dry needling, the voodoo bands and the NormaTec. Those three things from a highly acute, highly specific form and slightly invasive form of creating recovery with the dry needling to less invasive, but a bit more specific with the voodoo bands to global with the normatec. I mean, those three things that across the, across a week, the guys are going to be exposed to daily, from the voodoo bands to the normatec to the dry needling. Again, getting these guys to recover from what we're doing, either from a specific injury or just general being able to, to have some resilience with the amount of training that we put them through is critical. And those three things are things that I think have made the difference in helping a number of these guys recover from what they've come off of the season with and then be able to have them handle the amount of training that we put them through and then be, you know, have recovered enough to go to the combine and perform. It's an intense six to eight weeks of training. And you know, us as coaches have always said we wouldn't be able to do what we do in terms of applying the type of training stimulus that we think is necessary to get the results that we do. If we didn't have a physical therapy team that was applying the recovery modalities that they do. If they were not doing that, we couldn't do what we do. So we. That's really the key. That's really the key.

Yeah. Makes sense. Well, you guys, there's obviously so much we could delve into, but I'm really hoping this gives our listeners a pretty good overview of the nitty gritty details that go into preparing for honestly, one of the hardest professional sports on the face of the planet, in my opinion, especially from a body abuse standpoint. So what I'll do if folks are listening in, I'll link to everything we talked about, like the exosports performance facilities as well as the NFL Combine website, the Wellness FX, blood testing, and much more over at BenGreenfieldFitness.com combine. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com C O M B I N E. Dennis and Michelle, thank you guys so much for coming on the show today.

Thank you for having us.

Awesome. Well, folks, this is Ben Greenfield and Michelle Riccardi. Dennis Logan signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com hit up the show notes@BenGreenfieldFitness.com combine. If you have your own comments or questions to add and have a healthy week.

You've been listening to the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast. Go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness and performance advice.