A Rock-Climbing Navy SEAL Talks Ibogaine, Meditation Tactics, Parenting, Purpose & More: The Nick Norris Podcast.

On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast.

I'm still a former seal. I still have that part of me very much alive. Never goes away. I just, I've learned to embrace so much more than just that. You know, everybody's saying, like, live in the present, like, live in the moment. And there's a lot of, you know, all the motivational stuff like that. I get it. The people that you love, be humble with the world, you know, and I think if people carry themselves with a little bit more humility, this world would be a much nicer place to be.

Help performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show. So I recently made a trip down to San Diego and met a ton of interesting people there and recorded a few podcasts for you. You may have already heard the episode with PA Check that I recorded during my time there, but I also met a fantastic gentleman named Nick Norris, former active duty Navy seal, who you may also be familiar with from having heard him on Tim Ferriss's podcast. But Nick and I had a fantastic discussion and I think you're really going to dig this one. I think Tracy, our host, who's whose private podcasting studio we're using, she said it's green tea. I think she said there's collagen in there. Tocotrienols, which is like vitamin A.

It's really good.

I don't know. You're in the supplement industry now. You got to know this stuff.

I know far less than you do. Trust me, if you brought me on to be an expert in nutraceuticals today, I may cut you down.

Well, if we both get explosive diarrhea like 30 minutes from now, we can thank this lovely green concoction that we're drinking. You guys, I'm with Nick Norris, guy I just met like five minutes ago. And you know, as. As folks like us do, we just decided to record a podcast for you. In all seriousness. Now, we. We planned this out a couple of months ago. Nick, mutual, mutual acquaintance of ours, Ed o'.

Keefe.

O' Keefe introduced us also. He's in San Diego, isn't he?

He's in Chicago.

Oh, he's in Chicago.

So that was the connection to Ed. I. I'm a South Chicago guy and okay, Ed is a little bit older than I am, but new. My wife's older sister, a bunch of my cousins from the private high school, Catholic high school we went to. And then he saw stuff on our new company, protect, and then reached out because he's been in the E Commerce world for a long time.

Yeah.

So we reconnected on that end.

Yeah. And it's so funny, all these. All these little mutual acquaintances, because when we met a little bit ago. And I'll explain more about who you are for. For those in the audience who want to know more here about this mysterious guy I'm talking to. You walked in with this box of. Of like supp and sunscreens and body protection compounds and handed it to me, and I opened it and saw Mark Healey's name on the packages. And Mark I got stuck on the beach with, in Molokai, Hawaii, of all places, hunting access, deer. And we had both begged our deer and wound up spearfishing. And it was amazing for me because Mark said he's a waterman, slash, practically a pro spear fisherman. And so he just taught me all these tricks about going down under the water and scratching the rocks. And he wound up harvesting just a crap ton of fish and these little. They weren't clams or something like a clam that he was getting off of the rocks. And we had this, like, fire roast on the beach. Massive feast that would have cost us like 180 bucks a plate at a restaurant. We were just eating stranded, literally on the beach in Molokai because we didn't know when our helicopter was going to come pick us up. So we were just chilling, literally, like eating lobster skewered on spearfishing rods.

And Molokai is a tough place to get to or even be allowed to hunt and do anything else.

You're supposed to say that on spot.

No, no, but it's like, I think it's. It's special because I. It's a testament to Mark's character. You know, Mark is, you know, he's. He's allowed to go to those places because he's just such a respectful human being.

Yeah.

And I mean. I mean, I. I said when I met Mark, like, Mark would have been a phenomenal team guy. He just has like. Like this grit and personality that's. That's so synonymous with what I've come to known as a seal. He's just such a good person, you know, works hard, has tremendous determination, and is, you know, just somebody that I, you know, I actually, I look up to a lot. I mean, that's the reason he's a. He co founded the new company with us, is because, you know, he's the guy that I wanted to be around on a continual basis to make myself better.

Yeah. And you Actually just made this very easy for me, the segue there, because you mentioned it, not me, that you are a former active duty Navy seal and I know that Tim Ferriss, another mutual acquaintance, has interviewed you on his podcast. And I don't necessarily want to produce for folks a carbon copy of everything that Tim talked to you about. So you guys want to, you guys want to, you can go listen to Nick's interview with Tim Ferriss as well. I'll link to all this stuff in the show notes, just go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com Nick Nikk and everything that Nick and I talk about you can find there. But Nick is a graduate of the United States Naval Academy and basic Underwater demolition and seal buds class 247.

Yeah, 247.

I would like to say I had that memorized, but did have a little help from my, my notes here. So you basically did SEAL training. You completed it in 2004?

Yeah, 2004, I completed, I started in 03 after graduating from school.

Okay, and then you were a combat advisor to Iraqi and Afghan military units, Cross functional team leader, Ground Force commander during combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Correct.

So you've, you've been out there, so to speak.

Yeah, more than some, a lot less than others. So I always like to put that out there. I mean, I, I had the opportunity to serve in combat. I served alongside Army Infantry, Marine Corps, infantry, other SEALs, other special operations units. And you know, it's just, it always is humbling to be around guys that have seen more than I ever got the opportunity to see. But yeah, total honor.

I can only imagine most of my experience, so to speak, if you want to call it experience with anything regarding the Navy SEALs. Was going down to visit Mark Devine actually near here in Encinitas to do his, his Kokoro course. And also that he has a, I forget what it's called, but you, you have like five days of immersive training before Kokoro, which is three to four days of kind of like sleep deprivation.

Right.

You know, I, I always feel self conscious talking to actual Navy seals about this, but it's kind of like their miniature civilian esque version of Hell Week, I think. It's all, you don't sleep and you know, you kind of, you don't get guns or boats, but you do, you do a lot of, of marching and burpees and death rucks and all that jazz.

Well, you don't touch any of that stuff in first phase anyway.

Okay.

So you pretty much get the same Experience.

Yeah, it was hard though. Like that was probably one of the harder crucibles, you know, after all these different adventure races and things that I've done that that was the, the combination of the sleep deprivation and in my opinion, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, a whole host of, of these so called evolutions, you know, like a 26 mile night hike or you know, the in and out of the Pacific Ocean all night long till you're hypothermic. But a big part of it was I, I don't think the, the rigorousness of the evolutions themselves which, which you know, anybody, not anybody but, but if you're trained, you can get through. But it's more of the mind effing component of not knowing what's coming next.

I was jump in and tell you that it's the ability to overcome uncertainty and the unknown because when you're in that environment, I mean I, I adventure raced a lot and ultra ran and very difficult. I mean, I guess more high output, kind of high performance. But going into buds and specifically hell week, you just don't know. You don't know when you're going to get pulled out of the water. You don't know when the evolution is going to end. You don't know what's coming after it.

Right.

And I think that uncertainty starts to build a certain type of mindset which really I think is what sets us apart from our opponents overseas.

Yeah, I want to, I want to talk to you about that mindset because you know, there's, there's this theory that I've read multiple times that if you look at Navy seals and I've heard people say this for example about the NFL also is another one that comes to mind that a lot of these folks have the same genetic hard wiring as basically like a serial killer. Like, like specifically there, there's this gene responsible for clearing dopamine called the COMT gene.

Right.

And apparently people who have like the, the warrior. You're familiar with like the whole warrior versus warrior.

So. So you, you brought it up in some of our initial communication. So I actually dug into it because I had not really dug into that and researched it. So yeah, it was intriguing to read about it.

There's an entire book about it. It's called Driven. I will probably have released my interview with the author of that book, Doug Brackman.

Okay.

By the time this interview comes out. But it's this whole idea of not being able to shut your brain off, being in constant alert mode and also really needing to have excitement, occasional unpredictability and danger woven into one's lifestyle to actually feel complete and otherwise. You just feel like dead or bored. Yeah. Do you, do you think that yourself or a lot of your fellow seals seem to have that type of genetic hardwiring?

Yeah. So thinking about that. Absolutely. I mean, those, the things that you just described. I mean, I actually, I'm very interested in reading that book now because what you described is something that I think sets us apart on active duty, makes us tremendously good at what we do. We. But it's also something that's a major pitfall post transition and when guys get out. So I think that definitely, I mean, that exists. I think there's so many other combinations of, you know, genetic predispositions that, you know, lead to the kind of end result that we see in the SEAL teams. Because I did see, you know, you see guys that are warriors and you also see guys that are the, the warrior type individual that's, they're more analytical, maybe, you know, want to think about it and plan out kind of what's going on. So you find both of those. I think what our community does extremely well is, is take all of those people.

Your community being the Navy seal.

Yeah. With Naval Special warfare, I think we do a good job at training people like immersing them in a high stress environment and inoculating them to that stress. So even that person that's analytical and maybe not doesn't have the genetic predisposition to be, you know, that high performer in that high stress environment can still be a high performer in that environment even though they weren't genetically inclined to start with.

Right. So. So the warriors don't necessarily get partitioned to being like the, the Navy SEAL accountant, so to speak. They're still team members.

I mean, I, I get. There's guys that I know that are highly respected from our community that probably would, would fit that description and have performed extremely well in combat. In very, very intense combat. Yeah. So it's interesting though. But I mean, there is something to it. I mean, I think if you had to just put a, you know, put your chips on a certain genetic type.

Yeah.

You would probably lean on towards the one that is able to clear kind of those hormones.

We have a bunch of young men listening right now are going searching through the 23andMe results to, to see if they fit the, the warrior comt gene profile. Just for those of you listening, it just basically means you clear dopamine very slow.

Right. It doesn't mean you're a serial killer, right?

It does not mean you're a serial killer.

I'll get a call from Naval Special Warf in saying, hey, dude, you can't be framing SEALs as serial killers.

Right? Exactly. Now, you know, I don't know if you get sick of talking about this stuff, but, but people just love to hear stories. And I'm sure you've had a couple of situations arise during, during your training or during your combat that were particularly difficult times for you, either in training or elsewhere that you experienced that. I'm just curious, do you, do you have a couple really, really rigorous things you've been to or been through that you. That just put you through the wringer big time?

Yeah, I mean, there's a, there's a lot. I mean, there's one that came up because I was thinking about this the other day and you know, it's not, it's not as sexy as kind of a combat story, but for me it was a, it was a pivotal moment in training where, you know, we're doing log PT and I went into buds, you know, in very good shape. I was very well prepared. I mean, I think you get that luxury being at the Naval Academy, spending four years just getting ready for it. So I felt really good and I felt strong in a lot of the stuff that we did. And I remember specifically a log PT where, you know, you're carrying around these, these large logs in your, your boat cruise and, you know, we started to attrite people. Like, I was short, you know, I wasn't the short.

The entire crew carrying one kind of giant telephone pole esque log.

Right.

I actually remember doing a little bit of this in Encinitas. And you always felt screwed if you were like the tall guy.

Yeah, if you're the tall guy. Well, we started triting people in our class like that were really short. So like the class there's falling. It just, it worked out that way. So I remember specifically my boat crew got whittled down to like, you know, three people, maybe four people and trying to carry that thing and actually execute very simple drills.

So every time your boat crew gets whittled down, they don't add an extra person. You just carry a heavier load.

Well, in that situation, they didn't. And it was a moment where I physically was broken. Like I couldn't. I remember trying to pick up the log and like moving it a couple inches and them not carrying them as in the cadre and, and really having a dig. I mean, and I had Dug as an athlete, but never dug to the point where I was like, I was failing miserably. And they were letting me fail over and over and over and over again for probably an hour and a half or two hours. And it wasn't so much the physical output and the failure physically, but it was like my breakdown emotionally. I mean, I remember for me, it wasn't like a proud moment, but I remember like finally being like, secured, like allowing us to go back in and be done with the evolution. And I remember screaming at like, guys that were putting out and guys that were quitting and guys that were moaning and complaining. And I look back at it now and I'm like, man, I mean, I, I learned so much from that because I saw how I lost control of my emotions. And I think at that moment I made a commitment to myself personally that, you know, if I can do anything and focus on anything as being an officer and a leader in the SEAL teams, it's going to be controlling my emotions because people will look to me as a leader in combat, as somebody that can control their emotions, can make decisions, not allow the stress in the situation to really push me emotionally and detract from my effectiveness on the ground. So, yeah, I mean, I, that I can't remember a lot of stuff from buds. You know, you start to like, lose memories from the sleep deprivation and just kind of the monotony. But I mean, I, I probably will remember that till the day that I die. It was a turning point for me.

You know, it's interesting when it comes to frustration and particularly the, the emotional component of training. There's a neuroscientist and a friend of mine, Dr. Andrew Huberman, I know Stanford, you know Andrew. And Andrew has this thing that he talks about where, you know, one of the stress pathways in the amygdala can actually be controlled by the element of forward progress, which is why sometimes it can be incredibly stress relieving at the end of the day to go for a walk or go for a run or just move or. It's why mice in the middle of a field. If scientists had a tiny mouse treadmill out in the middle of the field, the mice find that and just start to run on the treadmill to engage in that stress relieving forward progress. Yeah, and, and for me, I don't know, felt the same way during, during that log evolution. But anytime that you are in a stressful event and unable to make forward progress, that seems to be the real kicker emotionally. You know, they say in wilderness survival the very best thing you can do is just do something, I mean, carve your frickin name in a tree. Just something that makes you feel as though you're making forward progress. And I remember probably one of the most frustrated I've ever been during a physical event was in Seattle. I did one of these spartan hurricane heats where they start the race. Typically the actual race might start on a Saturday at 8am, but for people who are doing the hurricane heat, you might show up on a Friday night at 7pm, do a 12 hour heat and then go and do the race afterwards. And we had to transfer about 90 pound sandbag from one area of the race to another area about two miles away. It was wet, it was raining and there was a very steep slope. And I remember trying to climb that slope for nearly four hours with the sandbag and couldn't move an inch, couldn't move. And that was the most frustrating part, was not being able to make forward progress.

Yeah, it breaks people. Yeah, I think that's so accurate. I mean, I can tell you personally I climb, I've relied on outside guys. A couple of guys out of the uk.

Rock climb.

Rock climb, yeah. So there's a couple guys out of the UK called Lattice, a couple really phenomenal trainers in the climbing realm. And I had trained with them for a long time, for several years. And then this past year I just, you know, took a break and I noticed myself stumbling because I didn't have structure, I didn't have those little micro goals in place. And I went back to them about five or six weeks ago because I just said, hey, I need to do something, I need to put something back in place as far as structure is concerned so I can start accomplishing little things to start elevating my overall mood and my, my, my outlook on my performance. Because in climbing, you know, you can train a whole bunch and then go outside and fail repeatedly on a boulder problem that you're working or a sport climb that you're trying to send for years. And if you don't have kind of those little micro training goals in place where you're, you're feeling like, hey, I'm making progress. My fingers got 2% stronger over the last three weeks. Or I could do one more, you know, one arm pull up, like that makes a massive difference. And I can attest to it. I mean, just something as simple as instituting like daily mobility work after meditation in the morning, doing it every single day, not missing a single day, has like elevated my mood over the last two Months, tremendously.

Do you, do you self quantify? Do you use any of the, you know, like a whoop or an aura or anything that actually gives you real time feedback? Or are you one of those guys who more like sets a goal on the calendar and your metric is whether or not you achieve that goal?

Yeah, I'm probably the guy that sets the goal on the calendar and my metric is achieving the goal. I've definitely, I mean, actually I've connected with the folks over at Aura. They're actually involved in a nonprofit kind of scientific study that we're doing to get a study. So this will probably totally derail the conversation.

That's okay. But I'm all about derailing.

I'm. I'm deeply involved with an organization called Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions, which is basically a 501 that raises money to fund research, advocacy and then actual treatment in the psychedelic assisted psychotherapy realm.

Oh really?

So the, the organization's working on a partnership with Stanford to study ibogaine.

Is that how you know Andrew?

I, I met Andrew through so Pat Dossett, who is the CEO of Made For. And Blake McCoskey is his business partner. Blake is founded TOMS. So I met Andrew through him and I also met Andrew through another former SEAL that I've connected with.

Okay, gotcha.

Yeah.

Now ibogaine, that. Is that the primary, the primary medicine that you're looking at for ptsd?

It is. It's a, it's not the reason I asked.

I'm more familiar with that for addiction.

So yeah, for sure. It's definitely known in the world as a very strong anti addictive medicine. It's being looked at now in order to combat, combat the issues surrounding micro traumatic brain injury like mtbi.

No kidding. So in the same doses that one would. Because for an addiction dose, I mean, I think it was Chris Bell who recently did a documentary on ibogainers in the process of producing one. And that. That is a hefty treatment. I mean you have to. I, I almost went down to South America to do ibogaine. Did not. Because the, the amount of discomfort associated with that particular thing versus me just wanting to do it as an immersive journalist, not because I have an addiction, but I had to take heart. I had to go get an ekg, send all my data over and like it's an incredibly harrowing experience to do ibogaine. Are we talking about something similar to what one might go down to South America to do for ptsd?

Yeah, so. And I'm not a physician by any means. But I know that the dose is less, you know, when you're talking about a flood dose of ibogaine, by the.

Way, not being a physician just means you can say things and not get sued for it. True. Yeah.

So the dose is smaller than somebody that is addicted to opiates. Okay. But it's still a very heavy dose. I mean, you know, I, you know, ballparking this, but maybe, Maybe it's an 800 milligram dose of ibogaine as opposed to like a 1200 or 1300 milligram dose.

Okay. Yeah.

But the preparation is significant, the risk mitigation is significant because there is risk with cardiac arrhythmias and stuff like that. So ekg, blood panel, medical supervision, you know, all of that stuff is in play. But the reason that the organization's looking at it and has been kind of backing guys, you know, specifically from our community, but other guys from the Marine Corps and the army have, have been through the treatment is because of the anti inflammatory properties and some of the, the links to kind of neurogenesis from.

A neural standpoint, for sure. So kind of like the same type of, type of thing that a guy like, you know, Dominique d' Agostino is doing with ketone research. But this would approach neural inflammation from an ibogaine standpoint. That's interesting. I, I've actually, I, after looking into ibogaine for addiction and also just to see what it was like as a plant medicine, I found multiple anecdotes of it being microdose for energy, like, like pre workout energy. And actually I actually got my hands on. I think they were 30 or 60 milligram, you know, south African bush extract, you know, the same type of extract that, that some of these, you know, tribal areas like in Africa, from what I understand will use to kind of whip themselves up into a frenzy, frenzy, you know, kind of like the, the Viking berserkers. I think they took harmaline or something like that. But, but ibogaine is similar and, and took some before a workout. I got a bottle of it and take 30 to 60 milligrams before workout actually is quite a shot in the arm.

Yeah. Smaller doses I think they did in Canada for a period of time. They had small dose like microdose ibogaine that was available. Available, I think through the medical system. Yeah, I don't know if it is anymore.

I don't remember where I got. I probably had to pay bitcoin for it.

And then it's, you know, ibogaine also, I mean, the big hurdle for the organization is that guys, you know, have to seek treatment in countries where it's legal, it's not on schedule.

Right.

You know, guys are being, you know, are going down to receive treatment in Mexico or Costa Rica, you know, places where, where they can do it safely and legally. But there's a lot of science and a lot of interest in the science behind it. And, you know, we think that it's a, a very interesting protocol to pursue. I mean, we've, I mean, I personally, I can attest to it. I mean, it's a, it's, it's life changing.

Well, that's what I wanted to ask you. Is your interest in that fueled by you having to deal with neural inflammation or PTSD yourself? And if so, aside from ibogaine, did you, did you go through any other experiences that allowed you to relieve that?

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I interviewed with Tim, as you alluded to in the beginning, about. I really, it was the first time I've really opened up publicly about my, my struggles and, and I really, I was, I was timid about that initially. You know, fear, judgment, feared being labeled as somebody that's broken or weak. And that was a big, a big changing point for me. And I.

You mean doing the podcast about it?

I think. Yeah, doing the podcast, but, I mean, but leading up to that, yeah, I struggled immensely. I mean, I, I left the SEAL teams. You know, I, I think part of the reason seals are very effective is our innate ability to compartmentalize. And that compartmentalization is phenomenal when it comes to being an effective SEAL on the battlefield. It's not so great as a father or a husband.

What do you mean, compartmentalize?

I think our, we have a very strong ability to take, you know, grief, stress and lock it away, kind of deal with it, you know, clear dopamine fast in order to get back on target and, and make very objective decisions in high stress environments and things like, you know, for me personally, grief, which I experienced a lot of, but I didn't really truly access it and explore it and try to resolve it. I just would lose somebody that was close to me, whether they were a friend in combat or a family member, and then lock the grief away, you know, grief for a very short period of time, lock it away. It doesn't serve me. I need to be objective. I need to be back on target and, you know, ready to perform at a very high level. And I think a lot of guys will take that ability to compartmentalize and just continue to do it after they leave the military. Compartmentalized grief. It just starts to add up over time to the point where you can't take anymore. I mean, as a human being, you're only capable of, of locking so much of that away before you start to turn to, you know, substance abuse. You know, whether it be alcohol or painkillers or just, you know, watching yourself change from like a psychological standpoint, you know, I saw myself become a much more agitated, angry version of myself that I really never was. I became very apathetic about the things that I typically would frame as things that I love. You know, working out, physical fitness, climbing, being outside, you know, being in the mountains.

Right.

Just didn't want to do any of it. You know, I felt very flat as a whole, and I think that was very scary for me. You know, feeling flat is something that I never felt before, especially being a seal. You know, I always felt like, you know, I could do anything. I was invincible and I was passionate about life and, you know, I lost that. So that led me on my path to try to figure out ways to combat that without relying solely on, you know, an antidepressant.

And was that ibogaine for you?

You? It wasn't initially. I talked, I did blood work. You know, I was trying to look at it from like under the endocrine standpoint.

Right.

And you know, my, my hormone, like.

Testosterone, that type of thing?

Exactly, yeah. So I got blood work done and like I was good then. The doctors initially labeled what I was telling them as a clinical depressive episode, which was like, threw me through a loop because I didn't feel like I was depressed necessarily. I just didn't feel right. And I ultimately went in and did transcranial magnetic stimulation. I was introduced to that a couple times.

You mean like tdcs?

So this is like tms.

Okay.

So it's a magnet. Neurostar magnet, I think is being used to basically treat depression. It's supposedly supposed to kind of retune brainwaves, brainwave activity. So if you're depressed and you got like kind of lower brainwave activity, it's bringing that up. And if you're anxious and you're spiking and you have higher activity, it's kind of bringing you down to more of.

A head worn device.

It's so you'd sit in a chair and then there'd be like a large magnet that they would position on like the frontal lobe.

Huh.

And, and treat with that. And I'll say I found relief For a period of time. You know, the battery was like four weeks or so, four to six weeks. And, you know, I. I interviewed with Tim, and I told Tim, you know, in our interview, that, yeah, I did find relief. It brought me kind of out of that headspace, but I found myself slipping afterwards. It was like a temporary relief.

Didn't stick.

No, it didn't stick. And in that, especially after the second battery, nobody wants to walk around with.

A magnet on their head their whole life.

Well, going. Going in, like, I had to go, you know, driving up to this facility to get. Go to a place where they could. Could, you know, do the treatment. I mean, it's. That's disruptive. That doesn't help. But at the same time, it's like, I'm not going to do this for.

The rest of my life.

Sustainable, right?

Yeah.

So after that, I think I was. And it's kind of crazy, but I think I started running into friends of mine that had been exposed to psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, namely ibogaine. And, you know, these are guys that, like, I. I respected deeply from the SEAL teams. You know, they were. They were guys that I wanted to be like as an operator and to see the difference in their. The way they carry themselves. You know, the ability to kind of express emotion, to be. It's. It's like totally opposite. I mean, Ben, you didn't know me before, but, like, hearing me talk now, it actually kind of like throws me off. Like, talking about kind of like a more loving, compassionate.

Were you just more deadpan before?

Yeah, I just probably wasn't as open and vulnerable to talking about kind of compassion and gratitude and love and. And even, you know, saying, like, the words I love you to people other than my mom or my brother or my wife was very awkward. And I find myself now, like, I, you know, I was exposed to some of these guys that were very open saying, like, hey, I. You know, I love you.

Yeah.

And it. It was pretty miraculous. Miraculous to watch that. And then I. I specifically had a very good friend of mine that I watched. I watched Transform. And I knew this guy very well because we served in combat together. And I got to see the change in him post treatment, and he was just a lighter, brighter version of himself that I had never even really seen before. And that was intriguing. You know, it was intriguing enough for me to explore it. And then, you know, I explored it.

Wow.

And it had a profound impact on me. I mean, to the point where I am completely invested in helping, you know, kind of push the research and the advocacy and, and ensuring that something like this, and like I want to say, like ibogaine is, you know, has significant risks associated with it. I'm not by any means saying like people should hear that and go out and be like, I'm going to do ibogaine.

Right?

Absolutely not.

Right. But ibogaine is a big stick.

It's a big stick. And for us, I mean with, you know, MTBI being kind of one of the major, we feel is a major contributing factor to veteran suicide because of the scarring that's deep in the brain that you won't even, you know, you don't even know exists until it's too late sometimes where people take their life and they were completely stable, normal, you know, effective people, and then all of a sudden they're gone. So yeah, it was very, very impactful for me. And I'm, you know, I think it's something that I, I would love to see that research be progressed and I'd also like to see not only this, but other kind of psychedelic medicines brought to the forefront in the right way. You know, there's a huge focus on the pre work and the post integrative therapy and really galvanizing change that will last. You know, meditating, working out, breath work.

There's a lot, I mean, I was talking with Matt Johnson who's doing a lot of the nicotine addiction treatment studies at Johns Hopkins and he sent me over kind of like the protocol that they currently use for their psilocybin assisted psychotherapy for nicotine addiction. It is a massive tome that goes way beyond just taking a heroic dose of psilocybin and sitting back with some music. I mean there is essential oil therapy and there are talk sessions after talk sessions, all spread throughout and meditation and visualization. So much that actually made me want, I think I asked Matt this when I interviewed him, how much of this stuff would actually work even in the absence of psilocybin? I would imagine that it would have a pretty good effect. And what I would like to see honestly is kind of this multimodality approach where for something like TBI perhaps you do use something along the lines of ibogaine, but then also something like a lot of what a guy like Adele Bredesen does for Alzheimer's or dementia, hyperbaric therapy and ketones related to Dominique's research that I mentioned earlier, high dose fish oil and vinpocetine and all these things stacked, I think can make a, make a really big difference. Did you experiment with any so called, you know or do you so called biohacks for cognition or for recovery or for the brain specifically, like hyperbaric or anything like that?

Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, hey, I look up to a guy like you. You know, you're so in the science and the research. You've become a resource for not only me, but I know a lot of guys. I mean, seals and I think veterans as a whole are just, they, they're geeks when it comes to researching the most effective biohack that's going to make them perform better, feel better. So yeah, I, I, I just bought my own sauna and I bought, I'm going to convert a nice chest temporarily before I could afford something more permanent.

I was gonna say like, like that. That company I'm working with now, Morazco, they do the done for you units. I mean, you're talking about, you know, Lowe's for a couple hundred bucks versus, you know, 2,000 to 6,000 for you there. The convenience factor, of course, I mean.

They'Re beautiful and they're convenient for sure, but I just, I'm implementing that. I know for me, contrast therapy is phenomenal.

There's contrast therapy?

Yep. Yeah, I love it. I feel good. You know, I sit in a sauna and then go into an ice bath, you know, that just, I mean there's science behind it, but I just, I can tell you that I feel better.

Oh, it's amazing. It's transformative even in small doses. It was actually because I'm down here in San Diego talking to you because I came down here for a kettlebell training certification, which just put me through the ringer every day and went to the physical therapist a couple of nights ago. The guy who I was, I was with, well, I went up to see Sean Golden, a really cool local guy. But his partner, another doc up there named Tyler, was kind of like in the room with us. And he was just this extremely fit 50 plus year old guy. You could tell he was vibrant, he was smart, he was fit. He's an ultra marathoner. He's a doctor, very well put together. And you know, just like this, this, this, this light in his eyes, you can see he's full of life. And I'm like, you know, I'm laying there on the table. Sean's working on me super hard, you know, digging into my IT bands and my tfl. I'm trying to distract myself talking to Tyler and I'm like, dude, like, you're pretty on top of things, you know, how, how do you actually take Care of yourself. And he said one the of one of his top methods is actually hot cold contrast therapy. But I asked him, you know, what are you doing? You're like, like sitting sauna, you know, for a half hour, then jumping in the cold pool. Because that's what I do. I'll go sit in the sauna for a half hour, go two to five minutes of cold therapy.

Yep.

He does like 60 minutes of ice every morning, literally ice bath, 60 minutes, deep meditative breathing, which I mean doing something for him.

Sure.

It's, I mean the power of hot and cold, particularly when you're taking outside your comfort zone is pretty transformative.

Are you sure he's not a cyborg like universal?

He looked like he could have been one. Yeah, yeah. So that or somebody who's got an extra hour in the morning to sit in an ice tub.

Oh man.

Yeah. For, for me my problem with, with long bouts of cold, probably because of my skinny ass jeans is that the, the caloric hyper compensation that occurs afterwards just because I get so cold my, like I can warm myself up through burpees or eating right and so I'll just like exercise and eat all day after cold and be exhausted by the end of the day. So I have to use smaller, smaller bouts. Than that. But yeah, hot cold contrast is, is amazing.

That's a big deal.

It's an integral part of my life now. You know, when it comes to the seal, something I wanted to ask you about was, you know, you'll hear a lot of people, you know, like, let's say like a jocko willing, for example, talk about all these amazing, amazing leadership lessons and self character development and, and grit and, and you know, all of the skills that one develops being a seal. But did you, you know, aside from some of your ability to compartmentalize and kind of like detach yourself emotionally from certain factors, were there other unhealthy habits that you think you took with you into civilian life? We hear about, a lot of people talk about, you know, all the, all the healthy habits, but was there, were there unhealthy things that you took with you?

Yeah, I mean we chatted a bunch about it already but I mean the compartmentalization is the first thing that comes to mind which again is a double edged sword. It's effective when you need it to be, but it can also be, you know, the thing that weighs you down the most. So that definitely has been tough. I think maybe the you think that seals wouldn't fear judgment, but I think I, I feared a lot about the judgment of others because, you know, the culture, you know, you either are in or you're out. Right. Your reputation is good or bad. And you work really hard to make sure that your reputation stays stellar, that you're a good operator, you do what you say you're going to do, you work hard, you're a contributing member of the team. You know, you're carrying yourself with humility. And I think some of that makes guys very, very difficult on themselves. It's really difficult to kind of, I think, exercise self love and compassion afterwards. We become very hard on ourselves.

Yeah.

And I've watched, you know, myself included, guys crash, you know, pretty violently, you know, and guys from the outside, people look at, you know, one of us and say, those guys are stellar. They're. They're superhuman. They've done all this stuff, they've accomplished all this. And the voice inside our head is saying, I haven't done enough. I haven't proved myself. I haven't, I haven't. I've gotten out now and you know, what have I done to deserve all this recognition?

It sounds almost a little bit like, like a sort of Messiah complex. And you know, I'm curious, you're, you're a man of faith, are you not? I am, yeah. I'm curious how much you've woven your, your faith into that being able. Because I find myself experiencing this tendency to want to be the hero to the world, to be the Messiah, versus accepting the fact that there is a Messiah and that person already exists in the form of Jesus Christ. And my role, my responsibility is to direct people to that rather than try to fit that role myself. I'm curious how your faith has kind of, of worked into your ability to be able to deal with that self judgment.

Yeah, I mean, I always believed in God. You know, I grew up Roman Catholic. And I'd like to frame it as I, I believed and I understood and I, you know, I could reference scripture, but I never really felt God before in my life. And you know, recently, I think in.

Like a deep spiritual aesthetic way, I.

Think deeply understanding, you know, when somebody talks about the love that our Creator has for us, whatever you want to label that creator, understanding what that love really is and how powerful it is, I think is a. I finally got to a point where I understand. You know, I see my little boy and my little girl and that love that I have for my children is the only way I can describe that now. And I feel it, it's something that's tangible and I feel it. And I can't. It's hard. It's ineffable. Right. To try to put a label.

I get it. It's like. It's like when I had children, you know, and increasingly just being with my boys and loving them more with each day, having that be almost just like a tiny glimpse into how much, despite you know, our own failures we are, love has. Has just been transformative for me. Just. Just knowing, you know, in the same way that, you know, another warrior, you know, King David in the Bible, you read the Psalms and you realize how much this guy would just call out abba, abba, abba, and, you know, reach out to this father that he had in another ethereal dimension to get him through hard times and just to cast, I think, a lot of his burden upon that, that external source, it's. It's super powerful. And then knowing how much that source loves you and then having a model in your own life, like a little person that you're trying to take care of, and you're like, oh, this is just a tiny glimpse of the way that God feels towards me as a tiny human in the amount of love. Because, you know, like, my kids, if they f up and. And just. Just do something stupid and, and, you know, whatever, break a dish in the kitchen or whatever, you know, miss school for the day because they're playing Minecraft or, you know, anything like that. Yeah, there. There. There's a part of me that. That will. That will judge that or become mildly upset by it, but, like, the amount of love I have for them, there's no way anything would get in the way for that. Like, they can come back to me at the end of every single day. And as long as I know that they learn from their mistakes or feel bad about what they did. I mean, like, like, like I will just keep on loving them no matter what. Knowing that you are loved no matter what by. By a greater power. It. To. To me, it's just amazing.

That's the only way that I can even understand it is because I. I understand it now as a parent, and it's tangible to me in that context.

Yeah.

And I. And I finally get it.

Yeah.

Like, I never got it. Like, I, I know my mom and dad love me, and I. But I never felt that I never really truly understood. And I think that's. That's one of the major changes that's happened in my life recently. It's just. Just. I get that and I now recognize it so many other places. And I mean, specifically within you know, the community of guys that I've served with in the teams, you know, I could, I feel that too. You know, I finally feel love for the first time and can express that love openly without fear of judgment and not right, you know, not be so hard on myself.

Like, Like a philos, like the Greek term for fraternal love. Yeah, yeah. Now how about total 180. But when we're talking about unhealthy habits, you know, you've hit on some stuff, I guess, like cognitively or psychologically. But what about something like. This is just for me as a sleep geek, I like to ask about this. But for you, obviously you went through a period of time, some pretty intense sleep deprivation. How do you deal with sleep now? Are you one of those guys who pride yourself? Like, I see many, you know, hard charging high achievers doing on. On four to six hours of sleep. Or you go like a sleep hacker. What's your approach to sleep?

No, I mean, like I said, my sleep was disrupted significantly for a long time and I think that was just chronic exposure to stress, sleep deprivation, odd operating hours.

Right.

And then mtbi, I think, you know, plays into all of that.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, it was messed up. I, I don't recall dreaming for decade plus.

Wow.

I mean, like, I mean, maybe every now and then, but it wasn't a regular basis where I'd wake up the next morning be like, oh yeah, I dreamt last night.

Your REM sleep was probably non existent.

Probably terrible or non existent, and I wasn't recovering. It's probably led to a lot of kind of the physical stuff that I, you know, recovering from and continuing to rehab. I mean, I will say, like I, I went through the psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. I had the experience with ibogaine. My sleep has never been better. But it's not attributed solely to that. I mean, I think that you're going back to your multimodal approach. That was a catalyst. It really kind of cracked things open for me. I lean heavily on meditation. I got into meditation to prepare for that experience, but I now will be a lifelong meditator.

You got into meditation to prepare for.

For the experience with ibogaine.

For the experience. Ibogaine. What form of meditation?

So I initially was exposed to Sam Harris's app, Waking Up App.

Yeah.

Tim had recommended it.

Right.

As just a meditation app to get me started. So I did that initially. So, I mean, I will credit Sam with.

So this is like a new thing for you, like in the past couple years?

Yeah, I started Meditating. Just after I interviewed with Tim, the spring of 19, probably.

Wow.

So it's brand new to me. Me.

Yeah.

So I would attribute kind of the big experience, meditation. I mean, meditation has been so huge for me.

What does that look like for you? Meditation?

So I.

Or is it still the waking up app?

No. So I moved away from that. I've just developed my own meditative practice. I've tried a bunch of different stuff. I mean, I've sat for an hour every single morning for a period of time. But now I'm, you know, I stick with like 20 minutes first thing in the morning when I wake up. And it really sets the stage for me to be focused and calm and have perspective on the day.

Is that like a mantra or breath or mindfulness?

Just mindfulness. I mean, I think it's mindfulness more than anything else. And then I will incorporate breath work. You know, I'm an advocate of breath work and not all the time. There's some time. I'm a big fan of intuition now. Yeah, I like to kind of, if I feel like that makes sense.

Right.

I will embrace that. If not, I stick with kind of a mindfulness meditation approach.

Yeah. You'd actually dig this book I was talking about earlier by Doug Brackman about the book Driven, about the meditation that he has developed for these hard charging high achievers. Because it's actually eyes open meditation meditation to allow you to actually get relaxed enough as one of these so called driven, you know, comt gene individuals. Because by closing your eyes, you basically stress yourself out to a certain extent because you aren't able to be aware of potential threats in your environment. And so his form of meditation is very interesting. It's only, I believe it's just like five to ten minutes, but your eyes are slightly open as you're sitting. And so it's. It's difficult to describe, but it's almost like your eyelashes are almost together, but you can still see silhouettes.

Okay.

I tried it a few times. It's really interesting because it's almost like a. It's almost like an environmental awareness form of meditation. You know, everything that's going on around you, but you're still in a meditative state.

I could, I can attest to the fact that like I, I know I'm getting better at, I'm way better at like being okay with the fact that somebody might be walking past me or into the room or on the, or past me on the deck.

Right.

But I definitely have noticed that I, I would be on edge I mean, there's some times where no one came in, but I'm just so kind of aware that I feel like, you know, the heater or the AC will come on on a vent and it's blowing the blanket in a certain way or the pillow, and I can feel that. And I think that one of my kids had come into the room and was, like, bouncing on the corner of the bed, and it actually freaks me out a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's one of the reasons why I think a lot of the, the warrior types have difficulty with hotel rooms. I mean, and I'm kind of wired same way. You know, took a totally different path than you, obviously, but I, you know, in a hotel room, the tiniest, tiniest little thing goes off and I'm like, up like a shot because I think somebody's coming into the room. Crazy, illogical things, you know, why would someone be walking around my hotel room?

But it's not a bad thing, though. I mean, I think staying vigilant and being, you know, kind of operating between green and yellow is a good thing. I think so many people walk around this world aloof, not prepared, and I think, I think that's a good thing. I mean, I. You know, people are worried sometimes when, you know that they're going to change completely, you know, if they embrace kind of vulnerability and love and all this stuff that we've been talking about. But you never change kind of this. I mean, I am, I'm still a former seal. I still have that part of me very much alive. You know, I'm very vigilant, you know, and I, I still, you know, for all intents and purposes, you know, I have no problem going back into that type of environment.

Yeah.

So it never goes away. I just, I've learned to embrace so much more than just that.

Yeah. Besides, you know, bouldering and rock climbing, which you're obviously super into. Is. Is there anything else that you're doing as part of your fitness regimen? Like, like, have you kind of carried a lot of that from your SEAL training days? Just like really hitting it hard every day? Or, or, or what does it look like for you right now?

Yeah, so, I mean, bouldering is what I love, namely because it puts me outside. You know, being outdoors is so healthy for me. And, and a lot of that micro goal setting. I mean, climbing is like, I guess like surfing. You know, you could pursue it your entire life and never be perfect. You're always going to grow, you're always going to be able to build on it. So I think I like that component of it. You know, I can train and I'm always achieving little micro goals and always progressing towards this unattainable perfection. So I do a lot of climbing specific climbing intensive training. But you know, I, I was always in, I mean especially as a seal. I, I was always into kind of more ultra endurance kind of suffer fest.

Type stuff like long rocks.

Long rocks or just being out in the middle of nowhere, like long trail runs. Like I, I was was ultra running to train for adventure racing to prepare for buds and being a seal. And I think that stuff really paid off as a team guy because you know, so much of what we, we did overseas was carry weight. Right. Body armor, weapons, rucks, whatever, on offset patrols over uneven kind of pretty gnarly terrain. Yeah. And I always felt really good about that and I always, you know, had a good strength to body weight ratio and I think I cope very well with, with kind of sleep deprivation and just kind of long burn endurance.

Yeah.

So I, I still will dip into that from time to time. I'm not running and kind of focusing on that nearly as much. But I have, I have certain unnamed friends from the former seals from the community that will still reach out every now and then.

Yeah.

And one of which is the, the one that introed me to Tim originally. But he will be notorious for reaching out and telling me he's going to go do something terrible this year and he would appreciate it if I join.

I used to get that all the time. I say yes all the time. And now almost, you know, somebody invited me to. I think it was the Otillo Swim Run Championships a few months ago. And now I've learned my lesson. I know the yes is easy and then you, and then you've dug yourself into a hole of some pretty intensive training. Training yet. I think that ambulating under load is something that almost everyone would benefit from doing A few times a month. Like, like I try to get out on a Saturday or a Sunday wearing a backpack or wearing a weighted vest. You know, get my phone. If I got to catch up on some phone calls, I will head out my door on all the old farm roads and walk and walk and walk.

Yeah.

It was just, it's, it's kind of like a staple in my routine. One to three hours every weekend.

Yeah.

You know, which is three hours is an incredibly long. But, but I think that a lot more people would benefit both mentally and physically from just training oneself to go for a long period of time. I Think that's like, that's like one of the holes in, in, you know, CrossFit for example, is there's, there's not a lot of. There's like that long time just moving and moving that forward progress.

Right. Well, by default, I mean I, I didn't even think of it because it's just part of the activity. But I went out climbing yesterday, bouldering outside and just to a local spot. So it's not like there was, it was off trail, you know, on single track or fire road, but it was just paved road uphill for like 30 or 45 minutes. And I was carrying 40 plus pounds of gear, you know, massive crash pad, all my climbing stuff. Lights to climb at night. And it feels good.

Yeah.

And I'm not even running all that much, but I can still handle that. And that's the, the, the, the awesome part of just kind of walking under load.

Yep.

Like you don't have, you don't have to put in, you know, 30, 40, 50 miles a week, you know, of running. You can still go out there and just carry that load. Go for a long time and you get a massive benefit.

Go for a hunt with, you know, with, with Mark, sometimes pack a deer and elk out. That, that was actually one of my kind of like inspirations to start doing a lot more heavy pack loads. Was just getting ready to, to haul out elk or haul out deer.

Well, it's so much more fun like when you have something to prepare for.

Right.

And then, then I'm goal oriented. Right.

Right.

You know, if you're gonna go out to do a bow hunt with Mark, you're like, I don't want to look like a loser. Right.

I go on this or I don't want to get an elk and have to go on three trips to fetch it back.

Right.

Gotta deal with £100 in my pack.

Yeah.

How about you obviously have this nutrition supplements company, it's called Protect, which is what is sunscreen.

So you have organic zinc sunscreen. And then we have a lion's mane mushroom capsule with a complex of some other mushrooms. We have a B12D3K2 tincture and we have a plant based BCAA effervescent tab solid. And then the, the kind of the, the staple. The brand is just now coming online and Mark Healy's a co founder. We have this battery of liquid packs and the mantra for the brand is like, you know, keep it simple. You know, like simple routines, you know, effective results. And you and I were chatting about this like, you know, you can get lost in the complexity of kind of the supplement world.

Too too many SKUs. Like, too too many. Like, that's. I was telling you before we started recording, that's always me at Kion. I'm the idea man.

Right.

I'll come to my team with, you know, like, four different ideas that I want to launch in a quarter. And, you know, repeatedly had to get shut down by the CFO and the CEO before finally realizing it's better to stay simple and have like one focused product and not have like an enormous skew of 200 different. Yeah, because you got to keep track of raw ingredients and scalability.

Oh, for sure.

You know, launching everything so well, we, you guys keep it pretty simple.

Keep it simple. And it probably actually goes back to, you know, you're asking about, you know, things that I use, like biohacks, like, other kind of modalities to keep me healthy long term. And hydration, as simple as it is. And you think that I would have been like, an avid hydrator and, like, totally, like, read up on it. I was terrible about drinking water for most of my adult life. And even as an athlete, you know, I could run on like 8 ounces of water and not drink any all day. And I started hydrating, you know, on a regular basis because it's become part of my daily routine of making sure that I'm putting enough water in my system and making sure I'm getting the right balance of electrolytes. And hydration has been critical. And that's why we did this liquid pack presentation and delivery system for protect is we wanted to give people very baseline fundamental supplements. Like, we have an energy, we have an immune support, a rest and a hydration. But if you're going to take it, you got to dump it into 16 ounces of water. So we're kind of by default forcing people just to drink water. Because I tell people, I'm like, if you do nothing for yourself, just drink more water.

Well, I mean, that's kind of like South African exercise physiologist Tim Noakes. Whole concept, concept is you cannot drink just water because of the onset of hyponatremia and the fact that water in many cases, especially if it's filtered, tends to be somewhat mineral deficient. And you can, you can actually create some blood pressure and blood dilution issues and potentially even, you know, swelling in the brain due to excessive intake of just pure water. And then there was another book that's kind of funny. We're talking about this while we're at the house of Tracy Dues, who's a local hydration expert. I'll be interviewing her on Wednesday after actually about a lot of this stuff. But I read this, this really great book called it's not Hydrate. I'll remember the name of it. But it's about this idea that drinking water is one of the least efficient ways to hydrate oneself. Granted, if the water does have a lot of minerals added to it, it can be. But things like fruits, vegetables, chia seeds, slurries, a lot of these compounds from nature in which the water is naturally structured or naturally in like a viscous gel, not a gas or a liquid or a solid. But related to the research that Dr. Gerald Pollock has done at the University of Washington decided that water can form almost like a gel, like structure. And by adding minerals to water, preferably even water that has been structured, you can enhance the hydrating aspects of that water even better. But then also working in, in. And this is one reason why eating out of packages and containers is one of the things that's relatively poor to do if your goal is hydration. Consuming foods that are naturally rich in water.

Right.

Like, like a sweet potato versus sweet potato crisps or sweet potato fries, or fruit versus dried fruit or a chia seed slurry versus a handful of nuts. And for me, that, that kind of like hydration light bulb moment occurred when I used to race Ironman triathlon. And we had a exercise physiologist from the Gatorade Sports Science Institute come in and test all of us. And he did a sweat sodium analysis. And I was losing a massive amount of electrolytes per hour, way more than I thought. And when I found that out, I amped up my daily salt intake. Like not just sodium chloride, but actual, you know, good mineral rich salt, like Celtic salt. And I use this Mexican salt. And like I love a black Kona salt. You know, there's a few different salts that I vary, but this really mineral rich salt I amped up to six plus grams. And one of the things I noticed most was I used to lay awake in bed at night and could hear my blood pounding in my ears, unable to sleep. That went away within like two days once I started heavily salting my food. Yeah, but yeah, it does come down. And that's what annoys me. You know when doctors will say just like drink more water. Water, it's what you put in the water. Also the water content of the food that you consume.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's key. Yeah, I mean that's Like, I, I think that that's one of the biggest drivers of wellness for me. I mean, and even as a climber, like I was, I had this crazy paranoia that like, the better hydrated I was, the more I would weigh because water is so heavy.

Right.

And I would reduce my strength to body weight ratio that I struggle with already because I'm like a heavier kind of stocky person. And it's like the opposite. Right. You actually will shed excess water weight.

And bloat and all the more so if you're low carb or keto just because you shed a lot of glycogen and glycogen has like 4 times the amount of minerals. And so, yeah, it's, it's interesting this, this concept especially of increasing mineral intake if you're following like a low carb or ketogenic diet. Are you, are you following a specific nutrition protocol?

I, you know, I've tried them all. Not necessarily. I mean, I probably am lower carb, but I have not eliminated it. Yeah, I've tried to go totally ketogenic and I've tried to go vegan. I've gone just vegetarian. I've tried carnivore a little bit. You know, for me, it's like, it's a, a balance. You know, I need carbs to perform really well. I've just found that like even carbon or eating more carbs and carb heavy food later in the day, day has helped me tremendously.

Oh, that. The carb backload. I still swear by it. That's what I've been doing for years. I eat no carbs all day long. Carbs at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Serotonin, melatonin release.

Yeah, yeah.

The glycogen stores for the next day.

I'm a huge advocate.

It works perfectly.

And it's like, it's, it's actually like trial by fire because I didn't do that. And I would be like, man, I am like, I am on this stringent ketogenic diet and I should be performing well and I feel terrible.

Yeah.

So for me as an individual, I've noticed like kind of reintroducing carbs late in the day and that's typically when I'll train hard. When I'm climbing, like for some reason I just boulder better later in the day. And when I do that, when I'm kind of like I intermittent fast. So I do that is one thing that I have found has worked for me, you know, fairly well.

Yeah.

So like, if I'm breaking my fast Kind of later in the day. But I'm not doing eating a ton right before I train. I'm fasting before I'm training and then afterwards putting those carbs back in my system.

Almost my exact protocol. It's funny because we break all the rules, right? There's all these circadian rhythm experts who are in their white lab coats, you know, Guy. Yeah, whatever. I'm not gonna throw names out there, I guess, but that, you know, they say, oh, don't eat any food after 6pm and don't exercise later in the day. And I'm like, no, we're moving, we're shaking, we're exercising, bouldering in the afternoon of the evening, you know, doing a kettlebell training routine before dinner, eating a bunch of carbs with dinner. I always see better sleep architecture and better blood and biomarkers in the people I work with who exercise, who eat a solid evening meal, get an amazing night of sleep and aren't cold and libido less and hungry all day and unable to build any appreciable amount of muscle or bone density because they're nutrient stripped and mineral stripped and carb stripped. So yeah, I think it's interesting.

I mean here's the disclaimer is like I have not read that philosophy be from you at all. So I didn't come into this skewed, right? That's just what I found to work for me.

It's the difference between the skinny scientist wants to live a long time and the person who also wants to experience life to the fullest and be harder to kill.

Right. I feel the same way. My perspective on life and mortality is kind of along the same lines. Like I know I'm only here for a kind of a sliver of time and I feel like I'm on borrowed time. I mean I shared in a previous podcast I did with my friend Andy Stone jump about a near death experience I had in 2018. So I drowned, basically drowned in Hawaii. I was cliff jumping with my brother in law. Bad. Wrong place, wrong time.

Which island on the big island was it the cliffs at the end of Ali Drive?

It was on the salt side of the island.

It was about a 60 foot jump.

Well, this was like kind of an area that probably people weren't cliff jumping jumping. Okay, so it wasn't like your typical cliff jumping area. So like I, I mean retrospect, would I go cliff jumping there? No, but, but I, I made the mistake and I did that. And yeah, I mean I, I, I had a full blown near death Experience. My brother in law dragged me, my unconscious body out to sea and you know, we were. Oh my gosh, we were picked up by, you know, think there's a kayaker that actually was out there with another guy. And like, they pulled my body onto the boat and it, you know, saved my life. But that, that has opened my eyes tremendously to kind of my own mortality. I mean, I feel like I'm on borrowed time right now. And, and it's so important to kind of live like people, you know, everybody's saying like live in the present, like live in the moment. And there's a lot of, you know, all the motivational stuff like that. I, I get it.

Yeah.

And like, I just. All I want to do is I want to be happy and I want to love people and I want to be loved and I want to make an impact that's meaningful in that small sliver of time that we have left on this planet.

Yeah.

Before we, we move on.

Well, my, my take on it back to the whole faith aspect and my belief in immortality. The fact that some semblance of me, you know, arguably the most important part, my soul or my spirit, which I think is actually where consciousness resides, will be around for eternity.

Yeah.

For, for better or worse, depending on, on, on your take on things. And because of that, when I feel fomo, when I feel as though I don't have enough time to live an experience or to whatever, explore a different culture or cuisine or language or musical instrument or books or anything else like that, I remind myself, I'm gonna be around forever.

Right?

I'm gonna be around forever. And I do not have to be impatient with this process. And there was even a time where I thought, yeah, I'm going to be around forever. But all these cool things on planet Earth, you know, I'm going to be some spiritual, floating, ethereal body somewhere. And then I read this book called Heaven by Randy Elkhorn. And this book is an amazing treatise of how heaven and this chance to live in eternity is just a chance to enjoy everything that's around us right now. The amazing books and fruits and, you know, maybe, maybe not meat. I don't know if there'll be death or not, you know, but all these cool things that we sometimes get FOMO over, we've got our. And we've got eternity, infinity to be able to experience. And Randy's book kind of highlighted how heaven isn't just a bunch of us sitting on clouds playing harps, you know, with, with wings and that it's Actually a, even a more full experience of all the magical, cool, enchanting things that we get to experience right now on Earth.

Yeah.

And now when I have fomo, I'm like, oh, but I want to visit, visit, you know, Okinawa and, and Sardinia and Nicoya and go see all these blue zones and, and you know, go try this fruit and that food and that experience. It's like, no, dude, you got, you got infinity, you got eternity.

It's gonna be fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For, I mean, for me in that.

Experience, that's FOMO cure.

Yeah, yeah. Knowing that it, you have access to it forever. I mean, I, I, in that near death experience, I saw my kids.

Wow.

And very powerful for me. I'm actually, I mean, it scared me for a long time, but like, I can't even put words to it to describe it. But that, you know, the intensity of that love that I told you about it, it showed up. I mean, I didn't, I, I didn't recall anything else. I didn't care about anything else. All I wanted, I was like just kind of like frozen in this moment of like understanding that love that I have for my children and, and I was with them, whatever that means. I mean, I was, I, I felt like I was with my kids. And it was almost like, it was just this like perfect moment and, and for me, as I kind of look at kind of the other side, you know, that embodies it, it captures it. And you know, just being all consumed in that intense love is, you know, I could sit there forever. You know, it's just this, this peaceful, like, beautiful thing and it's, and it's here all the time. And I think that's, that was the missing link in my life, is that that, and that exists, that's here. My kids are at home and I can have that right now. I don't need to wait for anything. I don't need. There's no, there's no search for that. It's there and it's going to be there for me forever, for eternity. And it took a lot of fear out of the, you know, kind of the concept of death.

What do you tell your kids, like, in terms of, of important pieces of, of life advice that you share with them regularly that you feel is just a message that you would leave them with, you know, like, you know, for me, one thing I find myself telling them over and over again, probably because we journal our purpose statements every night, is, you know, find your purpose in life and then love as many people as you can with that purpose every day of your life. And you will, you'll always be self actualized, you'll always, always be fulfilled. You always be happy. Do you have, do you have something that you find yourself, a piece of life wisdom that you find yourself wishing your kids knew or something you tell them frequently from your experiences in life?

Yeah, I mean I, I would agree with you. I mean I, I can't steal mine, I'm not going to steal yours. But I will say I tell my kids to be, be kind and be loving all the time. You know, that's kind of how we correct behavior with our kids. They're yelling at each other, wanting to hit each other, taking each other's steps, stuff, just be kind. Like say something kind to your sister or your brother. You know, you love them, you know you love them, you know, I know you do. So you treat them as such. I, I think the other thing I would really, I would love them to carry forward if, if nothing else is just a deep sense of humility. You know, carry yourself with humility your entire life, regardless of what you end up doing, whatever, wherever you, your purpose takes you in this life and whoever you end up being with, just be humble. And I mean, humility has been the cornerstone of, of my life. I mean it was, it was the number one thing that I leaned on as a leader in the seal teams. And I find myself, you know, gut checking myself with humility even in my marriage, you know, with my wife. Like, be humble with the people that you love. Be humble with the world, you know, And I think if people carry themselves with a little bit more humility, this world would be a much nicer place to be.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that concept of loving others, something I shared with my kids a few weeks ago that I found to be transformative for me. And I can't believe I just recently kind of discovered this, but that idea of the golden rule and loving others and actually putting yourself in other shoes, deep visualization on that. And, and for me now I've, I've started to create this automatic habit of like right now I'm talking with you, Nick, and I actually think of myself right in your chair, looking at me. What is Nick seeing? Like, like what is Nick thinking about? What am I saying right now? What is Nick's impression of the way I'm carrying myself, the way I'm, I'm sitting? Actually truly putting yourself in another person's shoes? And, and you know, it takes practice, it takes imagination, it takes visualization tactics to be Able to really feel what somebody else is feeling in the moment. I found that to be one of the best ways to really, truly love others, you have to put yourself in their shoes. And not just say it, but literally. When you're at the grocery store and the person is begging your groceries, what are they seeing? How are they perceiving the way that I'm looking at them? Can I close my eyes right now and imagine I'm not standing here, but I'm actually over there begging the groceries? And what are they feeling? What are they experiencing? What are their hands doing? How are they breathing? And it's transformative. And this is a new thing for me, which is probably what I'm talking about. It's only been the past two months that I've really started to put myself in other shoes, other people's shoes, and realize how powerful that can be.

I think it did. I think that's so awesome. I'm listening to you say that right now, and that's probably been part of the change in me. Like, maybe I haven't been, like, consciously doing that exercise, but in a way, I think I have. I think in my eyes have been open. You know, I feel more awake and able to understand and just feel empathetic to people situations.

Yeah.

You know, I never. I mean, I was very. Again, I was very, like, pragmatic and kind of direct, and I just kind of did what I needed to do to kind of be effective in my job. But, like, now, you know, I pass by people that are, you know, people are homeless that are begging on the corner and stuff like that. And, like, you know, whenever I can, like, I might, like, I want to just give. I want to give, you know, our leftovers to them. Give them something to help them out. And I would have never been like that. I mean, I was always just like, ignore them. Put my head down, keep walking. And it. I can't ignore it now. And I'm not perfect by any means, but I think the fact that even, you know, those, you know, that happening to me at all is like. It's showing me, like, a different side of myself that I never really had access to.

Yeah.

But it all comes down to kind of just, you know, trying to understand other people's situations. I mean, I think if we did that right now, with all the conflict and turmoil that we're seeing right now in this country, the world, if we just tried a little bit harder at understanding each other's perspectives.

Yep.

And just trying to love each other, knowing that we're all human beings.

Yep.

You know, there's nothing for me is nothing Kumbaya or woo woo about that. That's just being a good person.

Yeah, it is. I mean, that, that was, that was Jesus Christ's entire message. Was. I mean, his entire message, but a big core part of it. I'm reading through the gospels right now over and over again. You've been blessed to bless other people. I mean, you, you've got stuff. So, so spread the wealth. Give your gift to others, give your blessings to others. Don't hoard, you know.

Yes.

Because, you know, there's the parable about the guy who, who dies with a whole warehouse and silos full of all this grain and gold and belongings and yeah, you got to take care of your family. You got to leave a legacy. But, you know, once you've got enough, you know, there's enough to go around for a lot of other people.

I could tell you I've touched that moment for a second and it was a very sobering moment. And I wasn't thinking about how much money I have in the bank or what I got going with my job next. It was literally how much I love my children. That's the only thing in that moment if I would have given everything that I own and would ever own just to be hugging my daughter and my son. I'm like lit up right now thinking about it. I mean, the hair is standing up on the back of my neck. I mean, that's how real it is for me, me. And I wish more people could experience that. I think, I think kind of touching death for a moment is, is a blessing. I'm so thankful for it and it's changed me forever.

Without jumping off a cliff and almost drowning, maybe without.

If I could do that. Yeah, Well, I mean, hey there. That's the power in these, these compounds, right? You get to touch it.

I've done it. I've done ego death experiences with medicines. And yeah, it's transformative, but some are called and some are not. But I think that those who are called either accidentally like you with your near death experience or those who do so intentionally with plant medicine. I always see folks come back with a message to share with people similar to what you've been able to share today. That it's family that is children, that is blessing others, that it's loving others, and that's what's most important.

And I, I, every single guy. So the guys now that have come back from these medicine experiences, it blows me away. You have the most Hardcore, you know, warriors on this planet that I never would have heard, thought I would heard the word kind of love being kind of the ultimate truth coming out of their mouths. I mean, exactly the common thread. You know, every single one of these guys talked about how love is at the center point of everything. It was the center point of the experience and it's kind of what has transformed their lives and opened them up to be a less callous, cold version of themselves. So I'm a believer in it. I mean, I felt it. I mean, my medicine experience, it integrated my near death experience in a way that I can't even put to words. I went and felt what I felt when I died in that experience and that's what made the near death experience that much more real. Yeah, I'm like, this is. I mean, there's something profound that exists after we go. I mean, I firmly believe that our soul carries on.

It's quite a unique perspective because there's not enormously large number of people who have both had a near death experience and then also simulated that with medicine. That's actually to me a little bit settling to know that there are corollaries that you draw that are similar between the two so that people don't have to go out and actually almost die.

Die.

So as we wrap up here again, BenGreenfieldFitness.com Nick is where I'll not only link to the interview that you did with Tim, which you brought up a couple of times because you guys talked about a lot of other things, and then also to your company Protect and the book Driven that I mentioned. Pretty much everything you guys heard, I'll link to you in the show notes. But in terms of you and where you're most most prolific, where would be the best place for people to kind of keep track of you if they actually found you to be an interesting person.

So I'm on Instagram. If you look up Nick Norris, I think I'm like, Nick Norris, I've got it right here.

Nick Norris, 1981.

Yeah.

Is that when you were born?

I was late to the Instagram game, so I had to add the. The date of birth.

It's like the old AOL, you know, I think my AOL username was like WH410S because Ben Greenfield was taken. I like tennis.

For tennis.

Were you born in 81?

I was.

What month?

June.

Okay. I'm December 81. My wife's June 81.

Okay. June 6th.

Awesome.

D Day.

Well, so, Nick Norris, 1981. And you guys can go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com Nick. I will link to all that. Nick, dude, thanks for the amazing discussion.

Honor spending time with you. You in person.

Yeah, like we were talking about before the show. These are. These are discussions that would be amazing to have even when they're not being recorded with a. This always sounds insulting to my audience, but with a bunch of flies on the wall, so. All right, ma'. Am.

Thank you.

Thanks. All right, folks, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Nick Norris signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have an amazing week. Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the show notes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful Ben Recommends page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormones, sleep digestion, fat loss, performance, and plenty more. Please also know that all, all the links, all the promo codes that I mentioned during this and every episode help to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. So when you listen in, be sure to use the links in the show notes, use the promo codes that I generate because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.