Advanced Smart Drugs & Nootropics You've Never Heard Of, Rare Japanese Seaweed For Sleep Enhancement, The Most Powerful Form Of Vitamin B1 That Exists & Much More!

On this episode of the Ben Greenfield.

Fitness Podcast, I haven't used high dose of Phenibar, but it literally induces a.

State of fenibut withdrawal, which would feel like what? One of the first things that happens when I'm having a phone call with somebody is usually there's like 10 things automatically that just get crossed off the list. Because you're saying that when you took this other compound, it simulated the opposite effect.

Exactly.

Why does that make it a good thing? Of course, the number one question here before we dig into drugs for the brain is help perform performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show. Hey, you're gonna dig today's show. It's with this crazy biohacker dude who's a wealth of knowledge, and we get into these nootropics you've probably never heard of and a whole lot more. I think you're gonna want to get out your, your notepad for this one. Or maybe just don't listen to it at four times speed because we get into the weeds, baby. In a good way. All right, folks. Well, it's pretty rare that I scroll through feeds on Instagram. I don't scroll through feeds on social media, barely ever at all. And I think one night I was bored and like, it was like a picture of an almond or, or an avocado or something like that came across my feed and I forget what it said, but it was something along the lines of, I think it was honestly some kind of fruit or something that could enhance the effects of psychedelics. I don't recall what it was, but I clicked on it and I kind of got sucked down the rabbit hole. Which reminded me why I rarely spend time on social media scrolling through feeds. But this account was actually pretty cool. It was called Ergogenic Health. Ergogenic Health. And it intrigued me with some pretty interesting posts. Not only that fruit psychedelic thing, but this simple trick to lower your Cortisol by over 21%. That's basically like this free activity you can do how the way you could brush your teeth might actually reduce your intelligence. This special form of vitamin B1 called thiamine tetrahydrofurferil disulfide that I've actually. Somebody just texted me today, actually a very well known celebrity texted me today that to ask me if I'd ever heard about high dose ttfd. I'm like, well, it just so happens I'm interviewing a guy tonight about this and it's something for exercise performance and motivation and mood and energy. There was another post about how capsaicin from peppers could lead to anxiety in some people. One about this little known so called younger sister of Curcumin. And so I decided I wanted to hunt down the guy who was the proprietor of this channel. It turns out Kirk, he lives in Australia. I forget where. I'll let him tell you. He has his own podcast called Boost yout Biology, which has a whole bunch more nerdy deep dives into biohacking. He's pretty intriguing and well informed. He even sent me a link to this masterclass on nootropics that he made, which are basically natural versions of smart drugs. I took the whole class and I learned a ton, which just because I've always got my head down in a book, because I'm a nerd, it's pretty rare that I'd take a class and learn a bunch. And I did. And so I thought, you know, I gotta get this cat on the show. So his name is Lucas. And embarrassingly, Lucas, I don't even know how to pronounce your last name, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw it out there. Is it Ioun?

It's. It's Owen. Owen. Yeah.

Oh, well, it's a U. How you spell A? U O, N. Yeah, A O, U, N. A O, U, N. Okay. Lucas, Owen, Lucas, Owen. So everything Lucas and I talk about, you can get@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Lucas he spells the name of the C L U C A S. BenGreenfieldFitness.com Lucas and I mean, there's like so many things we could talk even sent me. I think it must have been 10 to 12 research studies that were super compelling of late. And I was just like, oh, kid in a candy store. Where do we even dive in? But I guess we should probably fill people in on your backstory. And I should also comment before that. This is actually kind of weird for me because since you're over in Australia, we're recording this podcast at night. It's really rare that I ever record a podcast at night. So I'm like in my office with my red light, my blue light blocking glasses. So I feel very, very bio hacky right now, if that's a word.

Awesome, man. Yeah, well, honestly, like, just want to say massive thanks because, you know, I've looked up to you for quite some time and I've, you know, I've always wanted to sort of pioneer my own sort of, you know, educational platform to educate people on biohacking. And some of my experiments. So yeah, man, I'm just stoked to be here. Well, sweet.

I'm stoked to have you. I mean, after going through your stuff, I really appreciate how thorough you are and I listen to some of your podcast episodes. You. You introduce some great folks. You know, I guess I'd love to learn more about your background. Are you one of those people who was like a computer programmer in your mom's basement and just wound up on some Reddit forum? Are you a doctor? Where do you come from? Exactly?

I guess my journey really started out playing professional soccer. I was always just interested in optimizing performance. I was very focused on various supplements, various strategies and things that I could tap into to basically just give me that edge. My dad's a pharmacist as well, so I sort of, you know, I worked there from an early age and that helps. Learnt a lot there. And then I just fell into the rabbit hole of like research and then sort of got involved in a nootropic startup and then just, yeah, like fell in love with the fact that you can, you know, take control of your performance. And that whole process I just fell in love with. And then I felt like it's time to showcase my knowledge and express what I've found over the years. Because there was a lot of, a lot of stuff that I'd found that was so underground. So many things that I found that were like hardly discussed. And that's really what I try to do, is put forward information that's like ultra underground.

Yeah, I noticed that. I noticed that actually. And you know, it's, it's, it's really interesting how I, I find that a lot of folks, you know, they either come from kind of like a wounded healer background or else a sports performance background. I'm curious for you, playing soccer, were there, Were there certain. Because it seems like a lot of what you talk about are like these little known supplement or nootropics. For example, was there something that you kind of discovered in your sports performance days that really sucked you down the rabbit hole? Or was it an illness or what do you think was kind of the initiator?

It probably stems back to experimenting with theanine before one of my games. L. Theanine. And I just remembered feeling like everything was so much more effortless. And I also felt like my decision making and my ability to just read the play was a lot better. And then I was like, that was like my introductory nootropic. And then just ever since then, I've probably exposed myself to over, I don't know, 250 different compounds over the past maybe, like, seven, eight years. So I've got a whole repertoire. I know what compounds do to me. But I also, I mean, I have a strategy and a system where I like, once I research something, I always have to, you know, experiment with it and see how it matches up with the research, and then suggest things to my friends and my other biohacker friends. And then, yeah, that's sort of just how it just catapulted into where I am.

How do you. How do you keep track? If you've got, like 150 different, you know, supplements or nootropics, for example, that you're experimenting with, how are you keeping track of everything?

Pretty old school, to be honest. I'm just. I'm relying on my notes app on my iPhone. But it's. It's really good because I have key terms that I set up so I can quickly search back. I can quickly, like, find how I responded, like, by quickly just searching and then finding that key word. But I'm always. I'm always sort of critiquing my performance. I'm always like. It sort of feels like I'm always auditing myself. Like, I'm always, like, just checking in. How's my performance in the gym, how am I sleeping? How am I. How's my appetite, how's my, you know, other things like that. So I've always just. Yeah, I guess, like, the whole tracking process is a huge component to it because I see a lot of people that enter into. They dabble with nootropics, but they have no idea where their baseline is at, and they have no idea. They fall into the trap of just experimenting with too many things at once and then not being sure what's doing what sort of thing.

Right. Exactly. If that's the least problematic of the issues that arise when you're trying too many things, it's a huge problem. Even in functional medicine. People just taking their giant plastic bag full of supplements and medications, and often too many cooks in the kitchen, too many podcasts, too many books, nobody knowing what the other person has prescribed or recommended. I see that all the time. One of the first things that happens when I'm having a phone call with somebody is usually there's like 10 things automatically that just get crossed off the list because whatever, eight of them have vitamin D, or they're creating some type of a serotonin or dopamine desensitization or imbalance based on, you know eight different nootropics that all crossover. So, yeah, it's a huge problem. And keeping track of it is difficult. I mean, for me, I simplify it. I pretty much, much go with HRV sleep and just qualitative energy levels and performance. That's about all I can juggle, really, for my own quantification. But that's interesting that L Theanine is what kind of got you interested in all this in the first place. A. Because a lot of people, they're unaware of its benefits. I mean, just something as simple as, say, I think you talk about this in your nootropics class, taking 100mg of L theanine, if you took too much of a stimulant like caffeine, or to take the edge off of a stimulant or to manage anxiety and stress, but, I mean, it shifts you into an alpha brainwave zone. It can manage depression to a certain extent. I mean, it's a pretty interesting molecule in and of itself. I think there's probably a little bit of an upgrade on it. My friend Sean Wells, who I've had on the podcast before, he has like a version of that, I think he calls it theacrine. I believe it's a combination of theanine and creatine or something like that, but I think that's even arguably a better molecule than L. Theanine. But, but lthean in of itself is, you know, dirt cheap and, and an amazing combination, especially with any, any type of nootropic.

Yeah, it's funny you mentioned the, the tea crane, because when I was working for that nootropic startup, I was the very first Aussie or Australian to use tea cream in a nootropic formula. And yeah, obviously in the early days when it, when it, you know, hit the market and was talking about that, it lacks the tolerance that caffeine develops and there's no sensitization, no change in blood pressure. I was like, yeah, this is going to be a badass compound.

So, yeah, it's cool stuff. If anybody wants to mess around with it, I'll try and throw links to everything we talk about@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Lucas. But anyway, so what I'm curious about before we jump into some of these really interesting studies that you sent over to me and dive down some of those rabbit holes, even though this next question itself may actually wind up going down some of those holes. Anyways, I'm curious if you could walk me through a typical day in your Life because you study so much, you have so many little compounds that you try. I'm sure like me, it varies considerably from week to week. But kind of walk me through your routine and I may rudely interrupt as you go to clarify some stuff, but I'm very curious.

Well, I guess like as soon as I wake up I really focus on getting that morning sunlight exposure and if I'm lucky enough to do a little bit of sun gazing, if I can sort of catch the sun over there. Some of the buildings here I only recently got. About six months ago at the start of lockdown, I got myself a walking treadmill desk inspired by you.

Oh yeah.

Honestly like that's the second thing that I get on is like I'll do like 10,000 steps before eating, like just at 6km an hour before eating. Yeah, it's a lot of steps. It is, but I feel like you'll figure out why because my latest meal, like my last meal is very late in the day so I can push that breakfast Back to like 11:00am 12. Because I mean my focus and my attention and energy in the morning when I'm just doing those steps, I can easily plow through, you know, a good three, four hours of work and that ranges right now. Like right now I'm you know, recording videos, I'm doing like lots of content creation, you know, building out different blogs and things like that. So yeah, right now majority of my time is actually spent on PubMed and just curating a lot of like really powerful posts and really underground things to sort of just. I want to get the word out there. I want to show people like what I'm made of. One thing that really drives me is the feedback that I get. You know, like I get messages all the time, like how beneficial my content is and like how much they've learned and that just propels me. Yeah, it just gives me that sense of value and just like I really have a passion for it.

Yeah. Yeah. One quick question by the way. When you wake up and do do sun gazing, is that kind of right when the sun is starting to come up, are you just staring into it? How exactly are you doing that?

It's usually really, really brief, like one to two seconds. I don't do it any longer because I know about the dangers and stuff. But what I do notice on the days that I do it, and although there's no scientific research to back this, I do notice huge appetite suppression on the days that I do it, I'm not sure why. I have theories and also Better sleep that night as well because obviously it's going to help with that melatonin secretion later in the day.

Well, I have seen some studies that show that red light can down regulate ghrelin to a certain extent, which theoretically could reduce your appetite or at least suppress the appetite. And I'm usually not up early enough in the morning to look at the sunrise. And honestly I live so deep out in the, out in the forest that the trees kind of block the sun most of the time in the mornings anyways. But I actually do put on, when I first get up, I put on red blue light blocking glasses. So if I am switching on any lights or looking at a phone or computer monitor, kind of looks like sunrise. And then I just use the big red light panels in my office to kind of sort of, you know, trick my body into that sunrise mode. And I find that I don't get hungry until kind of like you, until about 11 or 12 or so. However, I almost like force feed myself a smoothie around like 10 or so when I start work just because I've found my ability to be able to throw down in my afternoon workout because I still like to swing the kettlebells in the afternoon and if I, if I eat a solid meal like around 10, then I can really crush it. And I feel like if I wait a really long time to eat, I just don't have as good of a workout the next day. That's just my subjective assessment of my own performance. But yeah, the red light is interesting as, as an appetite suppressant.

And part of that sort of, part of that protocol with, with the 10,000 steps. I also, the first meal that I introduce, which is like 11 or 12, is very high protein, obviously meat dominant, very, very low or zero carbs. But this makes sense because like what I do is I do my heavy, you know, weightlifting at the later part of the day, like 5, 6pm and that's when I start to refeed on all the carbs. And I just, just recently in the last few months, sticking to that sort of protocol in terms of body composition and like, you know, fat loss and muscle gain, like it's been incredible. So I really think that's, I'm onto a winning protocol that just works well for my circumstances.

Yeah, there's some, you know, circadian rhythm scientists who will turn over in their grave. Well, they're not dead yet, so they can't turn over in their grave. But you know, guys like Jason Fung or Sachin Panda who will say that that type of evening carbohydrate consumption is just effing up the circadian rhythm. But, I mean, I track my sleep cycles. I track my sleep latency, my deep sleep, everything. And there's something about that evening carb refeed specifically for athletes or people. And I assume when you get to the afternoon part of your routine, you'll explain if you're doing anything beyond those 10,000 steps. But I find for anybody who's working out or who is an athlete, that evening carb refeed, especially if carbs are mitigated the rest of the day and a slightly later mealtime, it just works magic. And I think it's just one of those deals where a lot of these scientists are not out crushing it in terms of running up mountains or doing spartan races or lifting heavy kettlebells or anything like that. And they don't understand that a lot of times you just feel better and you sleep better with that evening carb feed.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a part of that protocol, I'll always, if I do decide to finish off my very last meal as a really high carbohydrate meal, like maybe oats or like, with blueberries or something, I'll always throw in, like, a gda, like some sort of GDA in there, like bitter melon, or been playing around with metformin a little bit, and dihydroberine, which I'd love to talk about.

Let's talk about that. By the way, what Lucas is referring to, for those of you listening and GDA is a glucose disposal agent. It's one of those things that can either increase your insulin sensitivity or increase the activity of some of the the glute transporters that are gonna cause glucose toto be more readily taken up into liver or into muscle as liver or muscle glycogen, respectively. And, you know, I, you know, in full disclosure, like, I market one product called kion lean that my company makes that uses bitter melon. For that, a lot of people use bear brine. You know, thethe cheap trick is like, Ceylon cinnamon or apple cider vinegar. But what is it that you like to use, Lucas?

I tend to rotate. So right now I'm using bitter melon. I've got some dihydroberberine on standby, which is a novel, a unique form of berberine.

What's different about dihydroberine?

Basically, the bioavailability is a lot better than regular berberine, which means you can drop the dosage significantly and then avoid a lot of the GI upset that you get. From regular berberine because I see a lot of people use like you know, between 500 to 2,000 milligrams of Berberine Daily as a GDA. But then they're not realizing that from a TCM, like traditional Chinese medicine perspective, berberine is considered a very potent, like antimicrobial. It's not indicated for long term usage in that manner because it's going to wipe out some of the beneficial bacteria.

Yeah, it's got a little bit of an antibacterial effect. Yep.

And then I've got some other unique compounds coming in fairly soon. I know one of them you recently spoke about. Technically not a GDA, but 5amino 1 MQ.

Have I recently spoken about that? I don't remember that.

I think you mentioned it on like a blog with ryan smith from taylormade compounding.

5Amino1Gq. Was that a peptide?

It's a small molecule. It's not a peptide, but it's. I think it's going to be. Yeah, Ryan said it's going to be up and coming, so I'm looking forward.

To explain, explain that one to people.

Basically what that does is it ramps up intracellular NAD levels. And the good, the good part about it is that it's orally bioavailable, so you don't have to inject or anything like that. The preliminary studies were really promising, obviously in rats only, but it, you know, caused a significant reduction in body fat. It increases lipolysis, inhibits lipogenesis, improves mitochondrial function. The unique feature about it was the fact that it can increase satellite cell production in muscle tissue. And Ryan actually claims that his vertical jump increased something like seven inches in like two weeks.

Holy cow. Wow.

Yeah.

Geez. And that's, that's a peptide that you don't have to inject. It's a, it's an orally bioavailable peptide. Like BPC157.

Yeah, I think it's going to be an up and coming, like, keep your eyes out.

Interesting. Interesting. I actually have not tried. I remember now that Ryan was talking about it. I think he even offered to send me some. But I get to a point where I'm like, yeah, it might be really good for me, but I, I need another thing to inject or another pill to pop. Like I need another hole in the head. And so sometimes I justi pass some of that stuff up. Butand then I have a conversation with a guy like you and I'm like, now I'm gonna go try it. And so, yeah, that's interesting. So 5Amino 1, 5Amino 1 MQI'll link to that one in the show notes and I'll hunt it down. Now we were talking about dinner and how you take like a glucose disposal agent and then you'll have dinner and dinner will include a lot of carbohydrates. And then I'm also curious about your sleep protocol, if you're doing anything special for enhancing sleep.

There is one really unique seaweed that I really want to discuss and that's something called Eclonia cava.

I've heard of that.

Yeah, it's like a brown algae that the Japanese spent like $30 million researching. It's a very potent antioxidant. Like it's a very, very potent antioxidant. But what's unique about the Aclonia cava is that it increases GABA activity but it does it in a very sustainable way. Like it actually it's a positive allosteric modulator of the GABA A receptor, which means it just opens up the GABA receptor for your endogenous GABA to bind to it. So it's non habit forming. Again, very sustainable. Also mimics some of the effects of L theanine because it also increases alpha waves in the brain. So that's, you know, a lot of people that love theanine, the aspect that they love about it is most likely the fact that it's increasing alpha waves and mimicking meditation.

That's interesting. The, the only, the only seaweed, I guess, or sea moss I suppose you would say that I've used is Irish, you know, and I've just used that as like a smoothie, as a thickener. You know, it's kind of like the, what's it called? The Shirataki noodle I believe it's called, which was like the Japanese yam. It's very high in soluble fiber and kind of goofy gooey and nourishing to the stomach and a good prebiotic fiber. But I've never actually messed around with the colonia. Are you taking it in capsule form or actually cooking with it or putting it in smoothies in the actual moss.

Form if I could sustainably buy some. As in it's pretty hard to source. In Australia I would use it in soups because they use it in soups. But I'm just using capsule form at the moment. It's got a very long half life as well. It also, there's no research, but I'm convinced that somehow it's having an effect on growth hormone.

That's a Clonia cava is the name of that one.

Yeah.

And you're taking that before bed, that seaweed?

About one hour before bed, because it's a lot of the fluorotannins found in the seaweed are fat soluble. So I always. If I had food like an hour or like two hours before, that should be sufficient.

Interesting. Okay. Interesting. Well, that's a full day. That's already some things that I think my audience may not be familiar with. And obviously, when I was introducing you, I alluded to the fact that I took this nootropics course that you sent over to me, and I actually have a lot of kind of more. Well, some brain stuff and some anti aging stuff I want to run by you. But of course, the number one question here before we dig into drugs for the brain is, are you a coffee drinker or do you consume caffeine from any other sources?

I only use caffeine when I don't need it, if that makes sense.

Explain.

I know it sounds bizarre, but if I use caffeine when my baseline energy is good enough to have it without suffering from some sort of withdrawal. Okay, if I do have it, it might be like before, like a massive 5k run time trial or when I need a huge boost. But honestly, I tend to stay away from it because I just feel like it always borrows from the future. Like I always, like, face the consequences the next day. That's probably due to my supremely low cortisol.

Meaning you naturally have low levels of cortisol and you feel like. You feel like caffeine amps that up unnaturally.

Yeah, I mean, I did the Dutch test and my metabolized cortisol was like.

Off the charts low, which would indicate the metabolized cortisol was low. Your actual production is low. It's not that your metabolized cortisol is high, and your low cortisol is because you're turning over the. The cortisol so quickly. You actually legitimately are not producing much cortisol in terms of HPA axis activity. Yeah, you're a chill guy.

Well, everyone else looking at me from the outside would think that I'm just an absolute hustler and doesn't stop working. So must be the high dopamine compensating.

One interesting study that you sent over to me that you said that you had come across was that caffeine somehow interacts with the cannabinoid system. Do you recall that one?

Yeah. Yeah, that was interesting.

What's going on there?

This is what's interesting with these studies? So there's a big difference between chronic caffeine consumption versus acute. And this study basically looked at the effects of chronic caffeine consumption on the brain's responsiveness to cannabinoid agonists. So for example, that can be thc, cbd, cbg. And what they found was that chronic caffeine exposure increased the sensitivity of these cannabinoid receptors. And what they sort of concluded was that it may have a synergistic or like a synergistic effect on, you know, stress, having an anti stress effect, which I found. You know, it's interesting to see, like how caffeine can mold the brain and change one's responsiveness to various substances.

Yeah, that is interesting. And it is interesting also because one of the edibles that I use, like, if I'm going to take a, like a THC CB edible, is made by a Washington state company called Moxy's Mints. And it actually is a blend of like a one to one ratio of THC to cbd. But then there are a few different choice herbs in there. I think there's some ginseng, some ginkgo biloba, some things that have caffeine like molecules in them. And the effect that I get from that is actually a lot different than I get from, you know, just taking, say, cannabis or CBD or THC in the absence of a caffeine like compounds. That's interesting. That's probably upregulating sensitivity on some of the cannabinoid receptors. Yeah.

Did you ever play around with CBG by any chance?

Yeah, I like cbg. But honestly, of all the different cannabinoids that I think are readily available out there, because the main reason I would use something like CBD would be for sleep. And CBG is really good for inflammation, particularly for people who have inflammatory bowel disease or stomach upset. Amazing for things like inflammation and pain. But for sleep, CBN is really good for sleep. It's very similar, like Valium or Diazepam without the nasty side effects and the impact on sleep architecture. It's more expensive, but like, anywhere from 10 to 40 milligrams of CBN is absolutely stellar for sleep.

Wow. I'm gonna have to go down another rabbit hole there.

Yeah. What do you use CBG for?

When I first stumbled upon CBG was when I found a study that could antagonize. I was looking for compounds that could antagonize the 5ht one, a well studied, you know, serotonin receptor that modulates the effects of SSRIs and influences oxytocin release, cortisol, prolactin. And so what I was trying to do is actually trying to mimic the effects of another drug known as ciproheptadine, which is the very first generation, like antihistamine. And what that does, and I also mentioned that in my nootropics masterclass is it does cause this incredible rebound effect where you're literally burying yourself down, like you're pushing yourself down for like three to four days to then have a phenomenal like snapback rebound effect to feel way above baseline for like the next week. Like it's a weird concept to think that you would deliberately like sabotage your performance to feel good four days later.

That's interesting. See, I, I feel like you might be able to stimulate the 5ht1a receptor and get that similar feel good effect using what would be known in, in psychedelics as the afterglow effect. Like a lot of people, if they microdose with a lysergamide like lsd, they'll feel great even if they're not taking it for like the next three or four days. And that one interacts with that 5ht1a receptor. So, you know, I'd question whether or not you had to experience the down in order to experience the up potentially. If you happen to be able to get your hands on something like lsd, obviously.

Yeah, legalities here.

Yeah, yeah.

But cbg, like, it also one of the funny, like fascinating studies was its effects on appetite. And what they did was they literally they pre satiated these rats, like they actually made them full, then they gave them CBG and it just completely blocked their feeling of fullness. So they just, you know, they weren't getting full. So one thing I noticed from CBG and this was good in a period of trying to put on, you know, put on muscle and, and weight was its appetite stimulating effects. It was phenomenal. Like just I would eat my meal and then like 20 minutes later I'm like, I'm not full.

Interesting. I wonder how responsible that cannabinoid is for the munchies effect of someone using, using an edible or something like that. How much of it is due to that versus due to thc? That's really interesting. So I guess you really need to have your glucose disposal agent on hand if you're using that stuff. Now I had mentioned a really interesting, I think it was a vitamin B1 derivative thiamine particularly, and you know, thiamine as a B1 is kind of a yawner. A lot of people just assume, hey, it's good for nerves, good for general energy and metabolism. But not only did you send me over some information on this form of thiamine called ttfd, tetrahydrofophoryl disulfide, which is, from what I understand, thiamine is kind of blended with some forms of magnesium, etc. But then like I mentioned, literally a few hours ago, without knowing I was interviewing you, one of my friends sent me a link to a fascinating article on a multitude of beneficial effects from the use of high dose thiamine. And they actually recommended that exact form of thiamine that you had mentioned. So can you fill people in on this ttfd, how it's any different than thiamine and what it would do for someone if they were to use it?

Yeah, so definitely an up and coming compound. So ttfd, it's a synthetic counterpart of alithiamine, which is, that's naturally occurring in garlic. Basically what they wanted to do is establish how this compound would compare to regular thiamine in terms of its bioavailability and its tissue distribution. So what they found was that this particular form had a very good effect at penetrating the blood brain barrier. What was most interesting was one of the studies where they found it activating the dopamine D1 receptor without the typical side effects of amphetamines, which obviously piqued the interest of a lot of psychonauts and things like that. And a lot of the early adopters, those that tried TTFD noticed a significant increase in like mental clarity and alertness and focus, the typical nootropic esque like property. So, and this was, I mean, I personally played around with very, very high dose regular thiamine, like thiamine HCl, which is water soluble. Yeah, that's like. And there's been studies in, there's been some crazy studies in Parkinson's patients where they administered IV thiamine HCl at doses of like 1500 milligrams and it significantly improving like Parkinson's symptoms, things like that. So of course I wanted to grab some thiamine from dad's pharmacy and played around with various dosages between 100mg to 500mg. And within a few days there was an immediate uptick in, you know, mental clarity and memory and carb tolerance as well. Like if I had my cgm, my glucose monitoring device, pretty sure I would have experienced a few hypo episodes because it's so potent. Yeah.

That's interesting. I mean, I know it acts to a certain extent on the. On, I think the Krebs cycle pathway with inhibiting a couple of metabolites that feed into that. One of the. I think it's called kgdh, is one of the enzymes that it inhibits, which would be one of the ways that it would reduce neurotoxicity. But it may also, in a way, kind of like restore normal energy metabolism if it's acting on that enzyme pathway. I've never personally experimented with it, but I literally, like a couple hours ago, I bought some of the TTFD just to mess around with it. Do you remember what kind of dosages you were taking with that? With that form that crosses the blood brain barrier, or did you try that form?

I'm still waiting for. Because I'm. Because of the whole virus. I'm still waiting for my. My bottle. And they were out of stock for a long time as well.

Stupid Covid. All right, well, you gotta be careful, by the way. Don't badmouth the virus or this. This'll get pulled off the Internet. Gotta be careful. Gotta show some respect, man. Well, that's interesting that. That thiamine, tetrahydrofroferol disulfide. Ttfd. That. That one I find intriguing. Now, there was another one that you mentioned because a lot of people, particularly David Sinclair, most notably, talk about resveratrol as a sirtuin activator and how well it pairs with something like NAD to help to repair DNA. Or in his case, NR would be what he would recommend. But you had one post on your site or on your Instagram channel that talked about what you consider to be. Be the next resveratrol. What were you referring to?

Yeah. Now this one I'm referring to is a mento flavone to put into context and to help your listeners understand, like, what it is. So.

Did you say a mento flavone?

Yeah, a mento flavone. A mento flavone. So for those who are familiar with chamomile tea, the predominant flavonoid found in chamomile tea is apigenin, and that's also found in celery. Now, amentoflavone is literally just two apigenin molecules bound together, and it's naturally occurring in Ginkgo Biloba, St. John's Wort, and a bunch of other really well known herbs. But I did some research and this has been around for quite some time. And if you look up some of the studies on amento flavor and you'll see how broad and pleiotrophic some of the effects are. Like in terms of crossing, again it crosses the blood brain barrier. It inhibits an opioid receptor that is critical to like motivation. It's a kappa opioid antagonist. And that whole kappa opioid network is very intrinsically linked with addiction, motivation, the rewarding effects of various substances and things like that. And so anything that can antagonize these kappa opioid receptors will theoretically just improve mood, cognition, things like that.

That's interesting because I use chamomile. Dr. Mercola, who I interviewed some time back and I actually wound up talking about this in my book. There are a few things that can enhance autophagy during a night of sleep, chamomile amongst them. And so I have this chamomile powder mixed with a few other things in my pantry that I'll often drink at night along with a little bit of triphala often, which is like an Indian ayurvedic bitter that just helps with post meal digestion and gives you a nice fluffy bowel movement the next day. But chamomile is one of them. And so I suppose I'm getting already some of the autophagy effects of this amyntoflavone. But it sounds like because ementhoflavone is very similar to that compound we get from chamomile but kind of bonded to its mirror equivalent that it would have an even stronger effect.

Yeah, and I think the other really impressive component of amentoflavone, this goes back to the typical, the bodybuilding forums, like the underground bodybuilding forums. Amentoflavone is able to increase calcium release from the muscle cells 30 times stronger than caffeine. So part of the, part of the performance enhancing effects of caffeine, we know there's so many effects in the brain, things like that, but actually caffeine improves that. You know, that calcium release from muscle cells that therefore helps with muscle contraction and force capacity and things like that. Amentoflavone has been shown to increase that calcium release by like 30 times more than caffeine. So that translates to better contractile capacity, better strength, better pumps in the gym.

Also higher, higher post workout muscle soreness. Since calcium releases is responsible for part of that. So be careful what you wish for. Right, yeah, interesting. So menthoflavone, that's very cool. So we have a lot of these autophagy inducing agents like, like rapamycin or another up and comer Spermidine, you know, or calorie restriction or, you know, I suppose resveratrol falls into that category. And this is what you're calling the next resveratrol. So that's interesting. I'll have toi'll have to look into that one and maybe upgrade my chamomile to something even better. Now, speaking about feeling good, dopamine is something that, you know, can be activated, for example, I believe, by that thiamine derivative that we talked about. But you also sent me over a couple studies about dopamine agonists in addition to that. And I'm curious, in terms of just feeling good generally, as far as a nootropic effect, what you like when it comes to enhancing dopamine release?

Well, for those listening in, the whole dopaminergic network is obviously very complicated. What you'll see from big pharma, like these dopamine agonist drugs like caboline and things that lower prolactin, they bind to that dopamine receptor. The unfortunate reality is that those compounds, again, are not really sustainable because they're going to lead to that dopamine receptor downregulation because you're constantly stimulating it and agonizing it, and then you're left with limited or decreased dopamine receptors. So compounds that can replenish and restore and revitalize the dopamine receptors, such, as I mentioned, nine mbc. Did you see that one?

Yeah, I think you mentioned nine NBC to me. I may have even texted you about it because I was considering it as a nootropic. I think I wound up ordering from the link that you sent me, but I didn't get it yet. But explain to people what 9NBC would do.

Yeah, so 9 NBC, I've put it in quotation marks as, like, what I think is like the ayahuasca inspired nootropic. Because if we look at the actual chemical structure of 9MBC, it stands for 9 methyl beta carboline. Now, the beta carbolines, it's a whole family of, like, alkaloids. So in ayahuasca, like the capi vine, there's a range of harmines, harmalines, hamala, alkaloids, things like that. And nine NBC shares a very similar structure to these harmaline alkaloids. And all of the other beta carbolines are actually neurotoxic. But this one here appears to have neuroprotective effects. And they actually began studying it in the context of, again, Parkinson's to help with dopaminergic cell loss and cell revitalization. And the effects were quite astonishing. Like again in rat studies.

That's really interesting. So it's inhibiting MAO to a certain extent, which is actually what something like ayahuasca would do due to some of the harmalines in ayahuasca. But the problem with ayahuasca is you're at the same time increasing dmt, so you get kind of like a psychedelic effect. And you know, like, I have smokable ayahuasca. Like I'll occasionally smoke an ayahuasca joint. I have an ayahuasca tincture as well. And I don't really like it that much because even though you feel good, you also just can't function as well with something like that. So this appears to be something that might be able to inhibit mao, have a similar really good, feel good dopaminergic effect, but be non psychoactive. Yeah, that's interesting.

Like the initial experimenters, things like that, most of the guys that have deployed nine NBC or have experimented with are those that have, they've been on like, you know, Ritalin or Adderall or other powerful depleting substances, and they're looking for a way to recover and restore that those pathways. And I think 9 NBC may have potential to help with some of those symptoms.

Cool. Yeah, that one was a little bit harder for me to hunt down. I think I actually recall. I think I had to actually use Bitcoin to buy it, I think. But anyways, it's not here yet, but I'm looking forward to trying it for sure. Now, in terms of the type of nootropics that one might use, because you talk about a lot of them in your masterclass, but what about for sleep deprivation? Like a lot of people will turn to a synthetic like Modafinil, for example, which I've done a podcast on. And you know, the main complaint in that podcast was Modafinil's affect on sleep architecture from a deleterious standpoint. But have you found anything for kind of getting through a day in a sleep deprived state or something that would, that would simulate what Modafinil does in a way?

I mean, I haven't had the chance to get my hands on, on one of these compounds or dabisance. It's like a very underground molecule that's gonna increase histamine like Modafinil. And that, that one there does increase wakefulness, alertness, vigilance and things like that. What'd you, what'd you call it, it's called er, dubisance. It's like I did a video on, on my YouTube channel. So I R D I B S A N T. It's like C E. It really, it's a ridiculous name. But that one there like is a. I was again, I was looking for ways to replicate or mimic the effects of Modafinil without needing Modafinil. And I was looking into its, you know, pharmacokinetics and actions and things like that. And I noticed that it does, you know, it's a very potent histamine activator. Like it improves in histamine release. And a lot of your listeners probably aren't familiar that histamine is the predominant neurotransmitter that determines arousal and wakefulness. It's really powerful in that regard. So anything that can support histamine release may in fact help with arousal and attention and things like that.

Right. I suppose people who do have histamine intolerances, which I know you're familiar with, would want to be careful in that respect just due to the potential for some pretty serious gut issues and skin breakouts and things of that nature. That might not be the supplement for you, but that's very interesting. Can you spell it one more time? I want to make sure I get this right for the show notes.

I R D A B I S A N T A N T. Okay, cool.

I'll hunt down some information on it. I always like to read up on some studies too, just to try to wrap my own head around mechanisms of action since I don't have a pharmaceutical daddy to call up like you do. I'm just kidding. Okay, so actually I am curious though about something. Just regarding testing in general. Obviously we've talked about a lot of stuff so far. I'm curious if you ever look at something and just say, nope, not for me or you personally look at mechanism of action or you know, like the way that I'd vet something like a wearable a lot of times is if it's got built in WI fi that's going to run on all the time, or a Bluetooth signal that can't be disabled or it doesn't have airplane mode. Usually it's just a no for me. Unless it's something that's only used for a very short period of time. And then if it's a no, then I'll research it, try it, et cetera. When you're looking at something like a nootropic or smart drug, are there any just like Hill Nos for you. As far as something you just don't go near in terms of mechanism of action or anything like that.

This one's gonna. I know a lot of guys are going to relate to this, but the big, big no, no for me is if a compound is powerfully a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor, like a DHT blocker.

You mean like an aromatase inhibitor?

No, as in like the 5 alpha reductase inhibitor, like, you know, finasteride and things that help hair loss and stuff. If any nootropic or whatever is powerful, like powerful enough to inhibit that enzyme, I'll. I'll run. I'll run well away from it because I just know the consequences of inhibiting DHT in the brain. I know the fact that it sort of influences allopregnanolone and how that can lead to just dysfunctional mood states. And I've met too many guys who've been affected by DHT blockers. I just know that there's a lot of risks associated with it.

Yeah, that's what I warn a lot of guys about who are going bald and want to keep their hair. There are some things you can do, you know, like derma rolling and like a GHK copper peptide and, you know, some other tricks. But ultimately, if you turn to a drug like that, or you. Or you say, well, I want to figure out a way to suppress dht. I mean, it's such a potent sex hormone and, you know, it's highly anabolic. It's one of those deals where there actually is something to the stereotype of like the big, strong, macho bald dude, like the rock. Just because DHC can be such a powerful, you know, activator of androgen receptors, and, you know, taking something that suppresses it is going to have side effects and, you know, maybe just turn you into, you know, Rapunzel, I suppose.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's. It's definitely something I keep an eye out for because there is, like, there is a couple of mushroom extracts which I am a fan of, but I know that there are guys that are sensitive to, for example, reishi mushroom. Although it is, you know, amazing Shen tonic. Amazing for, like, sleep and calming the spirit, things like that. Unfortunately, there are just a lot of guys that are sensitive to that, like that herbs, that mushroom's ability to inhibit dht and then they run into, like, you know, low testosterone, typical symptoms, like low libido, loss of morning wood, things like that.

Interesting. Okay, so that'd be another one to avoid. Now, in terms of you know, like any fringe nootropics that we haven't talked about, particularly in kind of the brain category, because that's what I was really intrigued about when I took your masterclass. Are there any other nootropics you haven't had a chance to talk about that you're kind of a fan of right now or that you think more people should know about?

There is one. And the name, excuse the name because, like, it's. I mean, it's called Homo taurine.

Homo taurine?

Yeah. That one there is again, a really versatile nootropic because it's what's known as a GABA B antagonist. For those who've experimented with nootropics will know about the famous nootropic fenibut. You know Fennebit?

Yep.

They'll know that, you know, fenibut's incredible for like deep sleep and anxiety and social lubrication, things like that. But the caveat with Phenibar is that it can lead to that GABA B receptor down regulation. So again, we're facing consequences. We're running into rebound withdrawal and suffering from excess anxiety upon withdrawal and things like that. What's unique about Homotorine is that it may in fact help with upregulating that. That GABA B receptor over time because it's an antagonist. So when I first trialed the homotorine, it gave me, like, although I've never used. I haven't used high dose of Fenibart, but it literally induces a state of.

Fenibut withdrawal which would feel like what?

I got nausea, I got just a little bit more paranoid and just, just not feeling right a bit.

Okay, so. So Phenab being anxiolytic, use the, you know, treat anxiety and insomnia and other things like that, and it kind of chills you out. You're saying that when you took this other compound, this homotorian, it simulated the opposite effect?

Exactly. Yeah.

And why, why does that make it a good thing?

Because it will help to restore their sensitivity. Like, it'll help over time with continuous antagonism. We're gonna eventually upregulate that GABA B receptor. And what's. What I didn't finish off is that once I went. Once I pushed through that, that crappy period, like the four to five hours, then the following day at around like noon or something. I can't remember exactly when it was like, I did get a rebound, a really, really nice rebound effect where I felt great. I felt so bliss. Like, literally, like what it would be like to have anybody.

Yeah, I hadn't heard of that. I mean obviously I've heard of taurine before, but never Homo taurine. Huh, that's super interesting. I'll have to check that one out. And then there was one other one. I think you mentioned it in your nootropics class. It was like 7P, something like that. Compound 7P. Does that sound familiar? Yeah, I'm looking at like I had my pen out and I've got horrible handwriting, but I'm looking at what I was writing down during this class. I think it's compound 7P.

Yeah, yeah, that's correct. Yeah. Now this one, again, like this is hardly spoken about. I'd consider this like one of the most underground compounds because there's only like one like vendor for it. This was interesting. It's like a very neuro regenerative compound because it basically it helps to improve neuro outgrowth in various parts of the brain that are responsible for memory retention, executive functioning. And I think the most promising aspect of it was that it's, it's ability to regenerate the optic nerve. Like for optic nerve.

Oh, no kidding.

So, yeah, pretty versatile. I haven't, I haven't personally tried it, but it's. Yeah, one to keep lookout for.

Okay, cool. So compound 7p. I haven't seen it available over here at all. By the way, which city are you in? In Australia. Where do you live?

I'm in Melbourne.

Okay, gotcha. I would imagine that some of what we can get here is gonna be different than we can get there. What are the hardest things to get over there that you feel like we've just got immediate access to over here?

Probably some of the psalms and physical performance enhancers, things like that.

Yeah, I don't mess around with those selective androgen receptor modulators anymore. I experimented with it for a little bit, but I, I think peptides are, they're safer, they're more effective, they're more selective. And so yeah, if I'm gonna use something, you know, let's say for like muscle gain or fat loss, then you know, I'll use a peptide like Tessamorelin or Epamorelin and CGC or something like that that I think works a lot more naturally than a SARMS personally. So tell me about the. Because I know people are probably wondering also about this masterclass, this nootropics masterclass. It's like you with a whiteboard, you're to going through all these different molecules. But it's super interesting. The type of deep dives you take. Can you give people the overview of what that class is?

Yeah. So I really just built this class to showcase all of my research, all of my experience over the past, say eight years. Really just to give people the tools that they need to then go out and start experimenting and understand how these compounds are working, what they're doing in the brain. I want to give people the tools to then just do it themselves. This is the research, this is how you can harness the power of these compounds and now go for it sort of thing. I do cover various compounds to help with the dopamine system, the serotonin system. I talk about anxiety reducing stacks, I talk about specific compounds and stacks to help with procrastination. And really that whole class is basically cosmetic neurology, which is a pretty fancy new term. But cosmetic neurology is really just harnessing the power of research and then taking control of your neurochemistry to suit your needs for whatever the situation. If it's public speaking event or if it's for studying or if it's for sports performance. That is where like I think there's a huge untapped area of like the whole cosmetic neurology side of things.

Right. That just be kind of like the. Yeah, I guess like the, the classic person who doesn't use a lot of naturals would be like, you know, the guy who takes a diazepam when he gets ready to fly an international flight and you know, lands and takes a modafinil and, and you know, he's, he's practicing cosmetic neurology, which I suppose so is someone who's putting theanine in their coffee. Right. Or anything like that. Correct?

Yeah, it's the same, it's the same principle really.

Yeah. Stacking. Interesting. Very cool. Well, thethe class was great and I'll recommend it. And I've got a 10% discount and I'll put that in the show notes and you guys can just go check out the class. If you go to benfieldfitness.com Lucas, that's, that's where I'll have a link to his masterclass in the resources section there. And also get a hold of a code for you to give you a discount on the class. And then the other thing is Lucas's Instagram channel, which I'm apparently now following is, is actually really good, as is his YouTube channel. And so that, that's another one to check out. And Lucas, let's see, what time is it there?

It's ten past two in the afternoon.

Okay. Ten past two in the afternoon. All right, last question. I promise. When you're getting ready to do a podcast like this, knowing as much as you do about nootropics and smart drugs and things like that, was there anything particular, Any particular pill you popped before you hopped on this show?

Okay, so I just stick to it. I stick to what I know works for me. So that for me was a concoction of 3000mg of taurine. I had one capsule of Cynara scolimus, which is artichoke extract. I had 50 milligrams of thiamine HCl, and then also a low hyperforin, St. John's Wort as well, which is activating and good for, like, just general arousal and stuff.

Yeah. So taurine, artichoke, thiamine, St. John's wort stack. That's one that I doubt anyone who has been on this podcast before has used prior to recording. But I'll add that one to the. To the bucket list of compounds that I now have to try after this. This conversation with you, which has been fascinating, by the way. I'm super stoked we're able to connect, and I'm happy that we are. We're whatsapping now, so to speak. So. So it's always fun to find other people to bounce stuff off of. And you're doing. You're doing a good job with what you're doing, man. So. So keep it up.

Awesome. Yeah, no, it's been a privilege, man. I'm. Yeah, I'm looking forward to. Yeah. Bouncing more ideas and who knows where the future holds in terms of, like, pioneering this whole biohacker space in Australia, because really, there isn't. I mean, I don't think there's anyone really, like, pushing this sort of content in Australia. So, yeah, I'm really, really proud to be doing something that I love.

That's awesome. You can be the trailblazer over there. I guess that would make you like, the Dave Asprey of Australia or something like that. So there you have it. All right. Well, folks, I'm Ben Greenfield, and Lucas Ellen is at Ergogenic Health. Look him up. The shownotes are@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Lucas, thanks for listening in and have an amazing week.

Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You. You can grab all the show notes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful Ben recommends page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormones, sleep digestion, fat loss, performance, and plenty more. Please also know that all the links all the time promo codes that I mentioned during this and every episode help to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. So when you listen in, be sure to use the links in the show notes. Use the promo codes that I generate because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.

Sam.