App EXCLUSIVE Audio: Ray Cronise: “The Real Truth About Thermogenesis, Cold Exposure & Weight Loss”

Let me tell you about our first speaker today, this guy. Anybody read Wired magazine? Anybody seen the most recent issue of Wired magazine or go to their website? You'll see this guy in there. He is or was a NASA materials engineer and four years ago decided that he was going to completely stop what he was doing and start researching hardcore into how to lose fat and how to optimize the metabolism in terms of speeding up the metabolism to burn fat as fast as possible. He has immersed himself in this stuff. He himself has lost over 50 pounds using the techniques that he's about to show you. He shot me some graphs and photos of people that he's worked with. That has completely blown my mind. The guy is on the cutting edge of fat loss. A lot of the concepts that you're about to learn from him today are going to completely reinvent the way that you think about losing weight and increasing your metabolism. So as you get ready to listen to Ray Kronice, I want you to have an open mind because it really is going to change the way that you think about how your metabolism works and how the human body really burns fat. And just be receptive to what he's about to tell you because this is stuff that you don't really hear anybody else talking about because nobody really knows this stuff. All right, so we are going to bring Ray Kronice on.

Thanks.

Give him a hand, folks.

Thanks, Ben. Do you have my audio on? So what we're going to do today, and thanks, Ben, for everything, it's been perfect. What we're going to do today is I want to try to break things. I hope that I say at least one thing that you disagree with. And the reason why is as a scientist, a lot of people think. Scientists walk around and think they know it all. But the truth of the matter of scientists are that they know that the only time they learn is when they're wrong. So we actually embrace being wrong. It's not a bunch of facts. You don't learn facts in school. You learn how to think critically. And we're going to talk a little bit about that. But my journey began really. I was a material scientist for 15 years at NASA Marshall Space Flight Center. I'm not cut out to be a government employee. And so at some point I decided I was going to leave in 99 and started a company and sold it. And during that whole time, life caught up with me. So just to get started here, you know, this picture really represents a big day for me because on that day, it happened to be St. Patrick's Day. I remember because I Photoshopped out a little clover that I had on my shamrock that I had on my cheek. But in that moment, it was like this was what I was getting to do every single day. It was an amazing job. Literally, I got to. I done about 5,000 parabolas and we flew this plane out over the Gulf of Mexico from 24,000 to 34,000ft in 60 seconds. And I got paid to do science in that and show up to work in a flight suit. And it just was fun. But my dream was to disrupt it. I went to NASA because I wanted to go to space. And I didn't want to just be an astronaut. I wanted everybody to go because my generation grew up with the idea. We were the last group of generation that grew up with the idea that, hey, they were going to pave the way to space and everybody was going to get to go. So the short story was, is that I didn't see it happening there. And so my business partners and I started a company called Zero G. And 20 years to the date was the best day of my life, the best flight, because I actually took all of my kids on a ride. But it was my Boeing 727. And we went and flew and did the same thing. We did what I did 20 years earlier for the first time in my life. And we disrupted. We also started the X Prize. We started. I don't know if anybody's heard of the X Prize, the first private thing to do a suborbital flight. We started Space adventures. We flown eight people, actually seven people to the space station one twice for 20 to 50 million apiece. And we've got another person about to go. And right now, the only way the United States has access to space is through Elon Musk. And Elon Musk didn't win the X Prize. But often the one that comes in second does better. So his SpaceX is. A few days ago, if you saw that they launched the resupply, they got a $1.6 billion contract. That rocket was not developed by NASA or under NASA's control. It was sold to NASA after it was developed. So it's very different. But why I want to talk about this is that 1993, when we were doing all this, it just didn't seem practical. And we've continued to try to disrupt. But this is my real story, because 20 years had its toll. So this is what I ended up looking like that later. I was at £230. I had tried every diet and nothing seemed to work. And I wasn't alone because a lot of people were really having the same problem. A lot of people, let me go back one here. So a lot of people were having this problem. A lot of people have been gaining weight. And the question I have is why? It's not because we know less about nutrition, it's not because we know less about, it isn't about exercise. But you know, we have this problem. This is just 2009, it's continued to go up. And the idea that we had, and this is this idea that we've had for about 125 years. And I'm going to tell you today, I think this idea is broken. The idea is that it's really all about, it's a balance, it's a balance between input and output, you know, exercise and nutrition. That's what everybody says, you've got to move more and eat less. And I don't disagree that that's part of it. But what I also know about thermodynamics is that it's also, it's also about the thermodynamic side. And when we eat food, just like a car engine or anything else, we're only really about 20% efficient. So about 80% of this problem, the energy problem, the thermodynamic problem, about 80% of that problem, we don't even account for, we don't even talk about it, we don't even do it. But what I found is when I went back 125, 150 years ago, those scientists, and I'm talking, I've lived in the 1800s now for probably about two and a half years, which has been fantastic. They're some of the best scientists ever. But the bottom line is they always talked about it, they always talked about this part, what's your thermal environment? Because if you think about it, the only species that are obese and critically ill are us and the ones we keep warm and fed. No other animal has this problem. And it's not that they're not exercising and it's not that they're food. So all the people that want to juggle food around and say a lot of things, it's really not that complicated. We're overthinking it. We all like to sound important and use big multi syllable biochemistry terms. And I can do that, but I just choose not to because the reality is my kids, my daughter won her science fair, flew her back last night from D.C. so she could do the regional. So she had to stop but she did a calorimeter calorimetry experience, partially because she's got a father with a midlife crisis calorimeter instead of a sports car. But this is my story. So I did all the diet books. This was my tracking my weight down. 12 weeks, 1.6 pounds a week. About right. I was exercising six times a day. At this point, I was doing Body for Life. So six small, frequent meals a day got down. And I would get to this point at about 209 or so. I get that 210. And then it would just crash. And then I'd gain it back. And I usually got it with interest. And for some reason, my bank account doesn't work that way, but diet sure do. And so the question was, what could I do different? And so at this point in time, I had actually sold my company. And I said, I am full time going to do this no matter what. This is in 2008. I'm going to do this. I don't need to go do anything. My life is more important. My kids are important. So I started with a spreadsheet. Let's see, what activity can I do every day? If this is my life, every day I get up and my goal is to burn as many calories as I could. I figured out if I ran two extra calories, if I ran two marathons a week, I could double my weight loss. And I'm going to tell you guys, I've never run a marathon. Sorry, Ben. I probably will never run a marathon. In fact, I haven't exercised in two years. So we're going to talk about that, too. It's crazy. And I'm not against it. I'm just saying, for me. But the point is, I'm not going to run two marathons a week. Marathon is about three quarters of a pound of fat. It doesn't take much energy for us to move. That's why Dean came and invented the Segway. He and I talked about that at Google one time, and that is one of the reasons he came up with that. But the bottom line was, is that this guy, Michael Phelps, was big in 2008, and they were talking about his 12,000 calories a day. And whether it was 12 or 10 or whatever it was, I eventually met him and we talked about it. The point is, I was eating 12,000 calories a week. A week. And he was eating a day. And I'm telling you, I don't care if he's an Olympic athlete, he can't burn that many calories. So the Question was, what was it? Why is it that this guy is going through, pounding through? Is it some kind of technique to make the Chinese team fat? I don't know, but maybe it's negative information. But the bottom line is I knew that the contradictions can exist. And that's what's really great about the real world. We have a contradiction. You check your premises, one of them has to be wrong. In the real world, there are no contradictions. It just is. And so I wanted to try to figure out what that was about. Well, fast forwarding, because some of you guys have seen my story in the Four Hour Body or maybe the tedmed talk that I gave. But the bottom line is by just simply adding cold stress in my particular case. And I did simple things then because I didn't know what I was doing. So I was doing things like Shiver Walks where I was going out dressed to cover my symptoms and not overly dressing. I was sleeping with minimum cover, sleeping in a cool room, spending more time in a cool room. I just actually had never even been cold before. So I sat outside. The very first day I sat outside just to figure out what my symptoms of cold are. At what point can I no longer stand this and have to go in? And I found out it's my ears and my fingers and my nose. If my ears, fingers and nose are there, I can double the time. If they're okay, I can double the amount of time I stay outside. If, on the other hand, I dress for summer running and I go walking until I'm shivering where I couldn't stop shivering again. And then I would run back. By the time I got home, I was overheated because my body produced all that waste heat. You see, we associate sweating with burning calories because that's really your body trying to get rid of all this excess heat you're doing as a process of doing it. Remember, we're only 20% efficient. So that sweating, that overheating, that flush is your body trying to reject heat that it generated, trying to move around. So we're beings that we need to always be getting rid of heat. We always need to do it. So now I want to fast forward and I want to sort of open your mind a little bit. I'm going to show you what I've been doing since, because it's actually even a little bit different. This is a friend now. A friend. His name is Rick. On May 23rd, that's what he looked like. 40 years old, chronically obese, morbidly obese. His entire adult Life and had tried every kind of thing, found me on the website, we started talking, and on November 3rd, this is what he looked like. No exercise, 106 pounds in 164 days. In fact, everybody I'm working with now gets repeatedly between 0.6 and 0.8 pounds a day weight loss with no exercise at all. Now, I'm not against exercise. If you want to run faster, jump higher, swim further, there's no way to increase your competitive performance. But here's one thing I'm here to say. The people that are studying metabolism, workout training, all that are all funded by this group of people that are athletes. And that's great. We are doing things we've never believed possible, where we break the mile each time and, and these guys, these performers, the people who are dedicated to do this, it's great. But guess what? It doesn't apply to Rick. Rick doesn't really want to do that. In fact, Rick begged me after he dropped his first 60 or 70 pounds, he begged me to exercise, said no, because it turns out in this case, exercise cut his weight loss and a lot of my people's weight loss in half. So by simply exercising, most of them dropped their weight loss rate half. It slows them down. Why? Because everybody's back to that diet, that diet and exercise motif and they're all looking back and forth and they're not taking in the other point. But let's look at it more realistic. So this is what his weight loss look like. How many people have a wide thing scale? I can't more highly recommend it if you're a personal trainer, if anybody is out there. The wide thing scale, if you're a personal trainer and you don't have this, this is a great way to work with your clients or just with your friends or to motivate. It gets people on the scale every day. I measured his RMR and this is the resting metabolism rate we're going to talk about. It was 2,152 kilocalories a day. His metabolic rate wasn't broken. It didn't matter if he wasn't eating meals, it didn't matter if he wasn't exercising. Look at this weight loss. That day that picture was taken was November 3rd. He's now down actually a little bit lower. But you can see as soon as he gets to his ideal weight, didn't change his diet a bit, it just levels off. Rick got married two weeks ago to a woman that he met at 336. Tonight's his reception. Unfortunately, I'M here and I can't be there. I would be there, but what a great thing. He's now below £200, and Rick has changed his life. He will never be overweight again. I know it because we fundamentally changed the way he looks and at food and other things. But it's not isolated. This is a guy who just started with me on January 17th at £326. He's down from 415, 32 years old. Daniel and I, he was actually at my house about two weeks ago. We measured metabolism. You know, he's down 41.6 pounds in 49, 48 days. So again, great, great kind of weight loss that these guys are getting with no exercise. But this was the. Not unexpected, but this is the hidden result because this is another wide thing product, which is the blood pressure. This was his blood pressure when he first bought this on the 25th of January, about a week or so after he did it. This is his blood pressure now. So look at the difference. And again, it wasn't because in this case of exercise. So this brings me to this point of how do we know? I mean, how do we know the kinds of things we repeat every day? I mean, I can't possibly read everything. I can't possibly reproduce every experiment. I can't possibly do that. So at some level, there's this idea of trust that you have to do. And if you continue to repeat something long enough and everybody repeats it, it ends up becoming the truth, right? We see it in the media now. I can't imagine a media that's more out of control. I've tuned all that out. I just don't even pay attention to any of it anymore because it's just. It's just, you know, sounds like the teacher on Peanuts, if you're old enough to remember that. Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. But here's what I want to do. So I want everybody to sort of put your hands together. Notice that your hands are symmetrical, right? You know. You know, I used to do this. My kid, except for mine, because I cut one of my fingers off. My kids used to like. Like that. So you put together. The bottom line is they're perfectly symmetrical, right? I mean, there's a bilateral symmetry down the center of your body. And it turns out if you put a mirror on your face to make yourself more attractive, if you have a mirror and you reflect your face, people who are more attractive actually have a more symmetry in their facial features. So, you know, someday, if you're ever. If you have one of those flat mirrors. You want to see yourself looking better looking. It didn't help me much, but still. So we look at this. Now. I want you to make the praying hands. And we're praying that this whole thing is going to work out, because no one. I figured out going up first. No one's ever completely worthless. They can always serve as a bad example. So if I screw up, too bad here, but if you look down, you're going to find that your right thumb is over your left or your left thumb is over your right. So you've been doing that since the time you were in the womb. So all I want you to do is switch it around. Feels like you're holding somebody else's hand, right? Feels very strange, feels very odd. But we know there's nothing different about our hands. I mean, there's nothing different about your hands. They're exactly the same. But that is habit. So every time you break through when you make an innovation. And my mentor in composites with a man by the name of Burt Rutan, the guy that built that first spaceship, one, he says that you have to have confidence and nonsense if you want to innovate, because any innovative idea, when it's introduced, most people disagree. You know, we can't fly. We can't cross the Atlantic. We can't land man on the moon. And I'm going to tell you that we've got some really crazy ideas that we repeat every day. And my goal is to disrupt them. Not to prove people wrong, but to learn. And so we're going to talk about some of the things. And I changed this presentation completely because in the last two, three weeks, I got to do some really fun things. So no one's really seen this, and I haven't talked about it, which is good. So here's a little exercise in critical thinking. How many people have heard something similar to this? You know, 80 to 90% of the heat is lost to your head. Wear a hat, you know, and somebody might say, oh, yeah, I saw Mythbusters. That's wrong, or whatever. But I want you to actually do an exercise to think through this. This is how I look at things. And I'm really weird and broken when it comes to that. I see the world in a very, very different way. But, you know, the first thing I might ask, for example, is what percentage of the head is your. Of your body is the head? I mean, it's a small amount, right? And when we look at that, you would then say, you know, is it possible for such a large portion of heat to exit through such a relatively small area. You know, I sit around and think about this stuff. I know it's stupid, but I do. And then the next question you might ask is, is there a reason why your head needs to lose heat? You know, maybe, you know, it just blows up. You know that spontaneous combustion or people whose heads stop losing heat and they just burst into flames. I don't know. But is there a reason? But then you got to ask even the more practical one, you know, if that's true. And I'm this guy right here. Oops, go back. And I'm this guy right here. Would I be any warmer? So would I be any warmer if I wore a hat? If I were Wim Hof. Wim Hof is the guy in the Columbia commercials, the Iceman. And he and I are great friends. I've gone over there. It's interesting. He wears a coat all the time, even when I don't, which I thought was funny, but I can't beat him in ice records. But he's submerged in ice. Do you think a hat's gonna make any difference at this point? Okay, so the idea is we say these things and we repeat these things and hear these things. And this is what I want to challenge this group. Ben is forever trying to challenge things. And that's not to say everything Ben said on his podcast, as many things they are, they can't all be true. There's got to be some of them that just. We outdate, we grow beyond. But as I talk to Ben from the very beginning, and we've, you know, Skyped over the years, and whatever the bottom line is, Ben's always critically thinking. He's trying to think past it. You know, he tries stuff. He gets people to try stuff. And when it doesn't work, he moves on. And that's the way we got to do. We've got to do this. We want to beat this problem. We have to think this way. And the problem is we get so many people that are entrained in pills and powders and things that they sell and messages that sell and books that are right. And now they got to be right. You see, when you publish something and you just put it out there, you got to be right. When you publish in the scientific community, in the peer reviewed literature, as soon as new data comes along, everybody celebrates. You say, wow, I didn't think about doing the experiment that way. You're right, I'm wrong. Let's go get a beer. But if you're Going around hawking a book, and suddenly somebody says, this is totally wrong. Guess what? You're just out in the cold. Because there isn't the whole interaction isn't there? It's more like dogma. So we're going to talk about metabolism. And this is one of these things like this. Everybody has one. So some critical things are if my metabolism is slow, it's fast. Hers is fast, it's slow, I skipped a meal. All these things we say. You say, well, how slow could it possibly be? I mean, I got a pause. I got to have a metabolism. Everybody has to have a metabolism. With Daniel, if you saw his metabolism is 3100 kilocalories a day, way more than me. That's why he can lose weight so, so fast. Because think about it. If you were carrying around an extra 150, 120 pounds a day, don't you think that would be exercise? They say muscle burns more than fat, but they haven't carried around 110 pounds of fat, weighs the same amount as 110 pounds of muscle. So the bottom line is, if you're big, your body is working hard, because rmr, as we're going to learn, is not that whole thing. So I want to back up and I want to show you a crazy idea. Now, this would be the time of Newton, okay? So think some really smart scientists. This is way back there. And they believed. How many people have heard about the phlogistic doctrine, okay? So this went on for 125 years. We believe this. And what we believed was anything that was flammable were made so by phlogiston, it was an odorless, weightless, colorless substance. We couldn't. We used to call it an asset. Let's make that experiment out of Unobtainium. It doesn't weigh anything. It doesn't cost anything. It doesn't have any mass. So we would say, we don't know what we're going to make it out of. Just put Unobtainium down there for the time. Well, that's what this was. People knew that somehow we lived and they kind of knew. And at that time, food was just nourishment. You ate and you lived and you didn't eat and you died. It was pretty simple. They knew that when you combusted a candle or burnt something that phlogiston was released. They couldn't find it because you couldn't see it, but it was there. They knew it was there. They also knew that because animals were warm, that that had to apply to them as well. And this sort of got into the place where the church was really not liking it because fire wasn't a really good symbol in religion. So the bottom line of making these connections really caused a lot of people a lot of problems. Okay? But what's really interesting about this whole thing, and this was Joachim Becker that did this particular. Came up with this theory later. This guy, Joseph Black at Edinburgh University, comes along and he discovers carbon dioxide. He figures out that if you breathe out, he can take an alkali or a basic liquid, breathe through there, and he can actually measure this carbon dioxide. He discovers carbon dioxide first and names it, okay? And so he has carbon dioxide, and then eventually he bores a little chamber in ice. And he does this really great experiment where he puts something warm in there, weighs it, pour, puts it warm in there, and he counts the amount of water that's dripping. And he's able, through that little experiment, to do this thing called latent heat and to say, wow, heat is something that we can actually measure. So now another guy, Lavoisier, comes along, and he builds this calorimeter. This is the very first calorimeter, how you measure calories. And he puts flames in here. He packs this thing in snow. He packs snow in here, snow in there to keep it there. This guy was a wealthy guy, built a lab in his house, kind of did, like me, was lucky, like me. He knew a lot of great scientists that he could invite over to do fun things in the garage instead of hang out and watch the game. And that's what we do. And he basically collected this. And so by doing this, he was able to say, hey, wait a minute. Phlogiston doesn't exist? Because Edinburgh still thought it did. In fact, Priestley is another scientist. I know you don't know all these names, but Priestley was the guy who actually did the experiments to discover oxygen. And it turns out Lavoisier gets all the credit because he's the one that synthesized it together. Priestley died still believing in phylogiston, even though he did all the experiments that conclusively demonstrated this thing called oxygen works. So these letters right here, and this is part of this collection I've been collecting, Abe's book and Google and ebay. You can get old books. I have tons of books now from 1700s all the way through 1920 or so, all the original metabolism books, all the roses. And I'm reading it in their words. They were great writers back there. They put a lot of. You know, our papers today are so Boring. Nobody wants to read them. But these guys were telling stories. They were all doing N of 1 experiments, and they were all doing exactly what you guys were doing, which is really interesting. But in these letters, Lavoisier basically outlines four points. And I don't speak French, I don't read French, but this is point 1, 2, 3, 4. And you know, thanks to Google Translate and some unit things, what these four things are is Lavoisier. And I didn't know this four years ago, but here's a man's oxygen consumption at 26 degrees. Here's what his oxygen consumption is. If we drop him down to 12 degrees. The air around him here is after digestion, here is after exercise. And those numbers are actually reasonable numbers they were able to measure in 1790. So he writes this letter to Edinburgh, that one I show you. And if you go to my blog, I tell more of the story about this. But essentially Edinburgh says, you are exactly right. I was so angry with when you wrote me this letter that you just basically took away everything that I had been believing in for the last 30 or 40 years. But the bottom line is your data is without exception, it's perfect. So don't worry. Most of us probably won't change our opinions, but the young guys here at the university are already changing their opinions. And the bottom line is this. We'll just grow out of it. That's where we are today. We're not going to convince everybody. I'm trying to convince you guys to be open about some stuff. And the results speak for themselves. So this is what I did. So this is where I did. So this is the original Atwater experiments. You've heard of the Atwater factors? 494. So I took a trip in the fall and I went all the way up to Wesleyan University and I looked at all of the Atwater archives. In fact, that's my notebook. And those are Wilbur Atwater's oak notebooks, which is really kind of fun. You're just sitting there flipping through these notebooks where, you know, where the calorie comes from, where we started doing it. So a lot of things happened that I won't go into between 1790 and the late 1800s. But during that time, what we ended up with is this idea of calories that food had, these macronutrients, proteins, carbohydrates, fats, and alcohol. And we had these things, and I happened. If anybody does anybody read my blog at all. So if anybody does, you'll know that I absolutely hate those words. I don't use protein, carbs and fat to discuss. That's just, I think they're meaningless in terms of words. But that's a whole different lecture. But I was able to do some things and really do in the last seven months, do some experiments and they all turn out the way the peer reviewed literature says they turn out. But none of them match the story I was telling and that you guys are telling. So let me say it one more time. All the experiments, look, they match exactly what I read in the peer reviewed literature and in my biochemtechs, but none of them match the story that I was telling and that you're telling now. None of the stories we're talking about metabolism, they just don't work, they don't match. I don't know why there's a disconnect. I think I'm finding something new and it's like, no, it's been done. And there it is in paper. Somehow in this translation we're all just sort of like kelp, out with the tide and in with the tide. And we just generally screw up props when they get around, right? And drowned divers. So Stephen Leichart and I met after my TED talk and he said, you know, hey, I really want to do a story. So for about a year and a half he was pitching this story to a lot of places. It's in this much Wired. But I put Stephen through hell, you know, you know that in that other picture, I don't know if you see him, I had him down in cold water, basically submerged with that thing. I told him, you know, he looks like a bondage slave, you know, with the tube, you know, underwater, you know, he's holding it. I mean, I put him through everything. He said, do whatever you want. And it was fun for me because it's hard to do those experiments on yourself when you got somebody else that you can do. It's like, yeah, you just need to stand in the water. So for example, one of the things that we did was we put him in water and we went up to his feet, just his feet in, then his waist, then his hands, then his shoulders and then his head. So that was 20 minutes. And I compared that to 20 minutes of running, 20 minutes of swimming, swimming at 80 degree water, swimming in 70 degree water, swimming at 60, 60 degree water, kettlebell swings and looked at what he was doing. And so this next thing that I'm about to say, this is probably the most important take home you guys can from this lecture, take home. Because metabolism really has two things that we need to talk about. Okay. And this is just. I took these last night because I really wanted to show you some of this data. And I've got data with you if somebody wants to get together at the bar or whatever, we can look at some of these things. But there's two things we need to talk about. Our resting metabolism rate, which simply is back to that Lavoisier slide. It's the amount of oxygen you're consuming, the amount of carbon dioxide you're exhaling, the amount of fuel that you're burning in any point of time, if you're not moving, if you're rested, you haven't eaten, and you haven't exercised in four hours. Any exercise physiologists here or people that do RMR measurements, okay, so they'll confirm, right? You can't have eaten or exercised within four hours because anything you do messes it up. And you know what mess it up means? It goes up. So basically, when you wake up in the morning, that's the lowest your metabolism is ever going to be. It's all uphill from there. So tomorrow morning, when you get up, that's it. That's the lowest level. Anytime we do this, there's a second one, and this is actually the more fun. It's called the respiratory quotient, or rq. Now, some of you guys will know, because we elite athletes, when you're doing VO2 or lactate thresholds or some of these other things, you're more into the respiratory quotient. What the respiratory quotient is, is not just how fast you're burning fuel, but what fuel you're burning. And they were doing these studies 125 years ago. They were doing this. So this isn't new information. This isn't something that's new. And anybody that works in this, they reasonably know what these things are. So, you know, I like to compare everything to rockets because rockets are fun and this is how it works. This is a space shuttle main engine. And by the way, if you ever get a chance to watch a space shuttle engine, well, you won't, because we're done with that. But if you ever get to see a rocket, a liquid rocket engine run, you think of them as roaring. But what they really are, these little turbine pumps are spinning at 55,000 rpm. So imagine your fastest Ferrari and imagine screaming at over idle so that you feel like the thing is going to blow up and then add about five or six more times that amount of energy. And so a rocket Engine, when you're watching it fire on a test stand, actually sounds more like a NASCAR sports car engine that seems like it's never, ever going to stay together with this low rumble that you can't really hear, but you can feel. But it sounds like a car. It's got that sign because it's mechanical. But what the space shuttle main engines burned was fuel, was hydrogen. The oxidizer was oxygen, just like the one we're burning. And what came out the back end was water and heat. So when you look at that big flume coming out of the back of the space shuttle when we used to fly them, that's just water vapor coming out. That's all that is. And what does it produce? It produces heat and a lot of thrust, a lot of work energy. Okay. Now, rocket engines are actually pretty efficient compared to, to the body. But the point is, this concept goes on in the body as well. And the difference is our power plants, our little APUs, we used to call the little PSI power units, the auxiliary power units for the shuttle that spin up those turbines so that you can actually light the main thing. Our little APUs are in each one of our cells, except for our red blood cells. These are the mitochondrion. And a mitochondrion basically is or plural mitochondria. I slip back and forth between the two, but basically it's the same thing. You've got fuel. And I'm only going to talk about fat and carbohydrate today. I'm not going to deal with alcohol and protein because it gets more complicated. But this is all you really need to know, because when we're trying to learn lose fat, this is sort of the battle. And we have our Oxycytris goes in here. It produces carbon dioxide, it produces water, and it produces heat. Waste heat. 80% waste heat. Right. We're only about 20% efficient. But what's interesting about this is that because fats and carbohydrates have different chemical structure, by knowing this carbon dioxide and that oxygen, we can now find this respiratory quotient. And what that respiratory quotient is, is the CO2 exhaled, the volume of the CO2 we exhale. This is the only equation. I got one more equation. Only CO2 exhaled compared to or divided by the oxygen we've consumed. So if we know those two things and we know the chemistry automagically, and it's done for you automatic today, with a calorimeter, you can actually figure out real time how much calories you're Burning, and this is what it looks like. An RQ of 1 means you're burning strictly carbohydrate. An RQ of 0.85 is 50 50. An RQ of 0.7 is you're burning pure fat. So the idea here is we can actually look real time at what you're doing. So then once again, I started asking silly questions when we're doing all this stuff. What am I burning? Well, it turns out when you're exercising, I don't care who you are, you're burning a lot of carbohydrate, a lot of glycogen. Even the folks that are really into the ketogenic stuff, of course they're not high performing that way. But the bottom line is glycogen and carbohydrate is what you see when you do this. And it's really interesting, but you can actually watch it. So back to the last two weeks. So I decided that I was going to do a bunch of activities now. So Cosmed, the company that I got my calorimeter from, gave me a backpack version of the same thing. So two weeks ago, I decided to go to the Westin Tower in downtown Atlanta, 73 stories and wearing a backpack and a mask and having a camera and sneaking into the stairwells is quite the thing. I'm like, I'm going to have a gun pointed me at my face. And it's the south too. So, you know, so the bottom line is, is that. And then last weekend, this was a few days ago, in Telluride, I was out in the cold and I actually had my guys doing these morning walks where we were out and they couldn't believe that, you know, it wasn't that bad, you know, that cold, you know, you're basically just letting some heat off, going for a walk, and you're perfectly comfortable. But anyway, so I climbed those 73 stairs, and my question was actually something that I really wanted everyone to be related to. How many Oreo cookies does it take? How many Oreo cookies does it take to walk up 73 flights of stairs? I don't know, 1700 and something of them. How many Oreo cookies does it take? And you know the answer. It's depressing. It takes three and an eighth. So here's the deal. You can't out exercise your mouth. I'm going to say it one more time, you cannot out exercise your mouth. You won't out exercise your mouth. The only exercise that works is to isometrically clench your teeth in the presence of fattening Food, that is it. And I don't care what anybody says, I don't care about fat burn and all the stuff. And you're in fat burning mode and all this stuff. The bottom line is our obesity problem is a food problem. And it's not a protein, carbs and fat problem. And it isn't a paleo versus vegan problem. And it's none of that. It's just food. It's our relationship with food. And our relationship with food is completely broken. We are a society of one meal. We take breaks to work and sleep. Other than that, everything's a meal. Every free space you have is a meal. Every event's a meal, every celebration meal, everything's a meal. And you just don't need to eat that often. It's just not. You don't have to. And when your relationship with your animals is food, don't be surprised because they get fat, because they're doing the same thing to you. The only reason they're hanging around you anyway is because of the food. Hate to break your bubble. They don't love you. Love is a higher level cognitive thing. They lick you, they like you, they tolerate you. But don't feed them for a while and you'll see. So the bottom line is with that I wanted to sort of take it over to the mild cold stress side. I want to talk a little bit about this side because I think it's something that we can do that really helps you kind of get in taps with sort of our primitive self. I hate to say that, because with all the paleo stuff, everybody talking about that, that's not really my thing. But at the same time, something happened. I mean, we sort of managed this for 7 million years and then in 100 years got it all wrong. And it's not a knowledge problem, right? So I think our story is pretty broken. But mild cold stress doesn't have to be miserable. So let me give you some numbers to think about. So, first of all, in water, mild cold stress begins at about 80F. Okay? That's where it begins. If you're not moving, if you're not swimming, if you're just sitting still in water at 80 degrees F, you're basically at a point called just below thermal neutral. So here's how this works. If I added the heat, you remember all those little power plants are working and they're producing heat, the net heat that my body's losing. If I'm making more heat and I'm giving it off, I'm sort of positive. But If I go to this neutral point where the heat that I'm losing for my body exactly equals the rate that the environment's pulling it away, that's neutral. When it starts getting colder, at some point, I'm losing heat faster than my body is making it up from its just living, right? I'm not doing it, I'm not moving, I'm just standing there. Then I need to start moving a little bit and I can do that. At some point when it's really, really cold, my body's trying to exercise. Here's where exercise came from. This is why people want to exercise, the health benefits of exercise. Because they were moving a lot, they were shivering. Shivering isn't painful. You just haven't done it. I don't run marathons. If I go out there and run a marathon right now, I'm going to be hating life. I'm going to be sore, I'm going to be miserable. I'm going to say this sucks. The same thing goes with if I throw you in an ice bath, you're going to be miserable, sore, and you're going to say it sucks. You might even get hurt. But the same thing as I go out and run right now, right? I mean, it's a matter of getting used to it. But you also are going to get an adrenaline rush after time. You're going to get the same exact high because it's based in the same kind of biology. We shivered to stay warm. A lot of animals do. And it actually doesn't hurt at all. The cold part on your fingers does. But even that gets better. So the other number I want to give you is air. Below 60F in air. I'm sorry. Yeah. Below 60F in air is where you're basically starting to be below thermal neutral. And then I want to give you two other numbers. One of them is 32F in air. In 32F in air, you're in danger of hypothermia. So don't mess around it. And in water, below 60 degrees F in water. So here's what we have. We have 80 to 60 in water. That's the only place you need to play around. And in air, 60 to 30, that's the only 32. That's the only place you need to play around. Don't do what everybody says and go in this extreme stuff. I mean, I don't even really do ice bath. And you're not going to do it in an ice bath in your bathtub, in your house. But the people that are going out and really exposing yourself to real cold, it doesn't take much. And the rewarming process actually is something that can cause you a problem. So my point to you guys is stay up in the warmer zone. It's still plenty cold. If you're not cold, just stay longer. I promise you, eventually you will get cold. Right? But that's a boundary of where you work in. Obviously, the lower you go, the more risk you have. And so you got to just be careful. There's something called white walking hypothesis, but this is how the body works. So our core temperature, we're not trying to actually drop the temperature of our body. What we're actually trying to do is lose heat at a higher rate. So our core temperature is here. And if we look at the environment, we have the core. What our core temperature is, we have the fat layer. So there's a fat layer under the skin and then the skin. And so as we lose heat, the heat basically goes out. And we have a system of capillaries that flow blood, shunt blood up to the surface. That's why you get flush and red when you've been running. And then when you're cold, it pulls it back. So your skin is like a radiator, and you allow that heat to come out to the skin or go back in. And so one of the tricks of dumping heat more is basically to get to the point where your body isn't panicking. And what I mean by that is this is a normal person, your blood's flowing all the way down. When they get cold, essentially, the body withdraws. Heat withdraws blood flow from these things. That's why you get frostbite at the toes, the ears, the nose. You don't get frostbite at the head, right, because the body still flows heat there. It's trying to protect the core, it's trying to bring the blood in. But just like martial arts, any martial artists here, okay, so the very first time you start fighting, what do you got to learn? You can't flinch. You got to block. And if you flinch, you're going to get hurt. So you got to learn when someone's punching at you to stop, think and react to what they're doing, not just, well, this is your body's fight or flight response. It just says, panic mode, I'm cold. And that's why your hands, your head gets stressed. Hopefully most of you guys will feel it tonight or tomorrow because I'm going to give you something to do and you're going to actually feel this. So this Is actually real. You, you know. So this process happens. And we know that heat always flows from hot to cold. So, you know, as we're doing this thing, I want you to sort of think of your utility bill. Your house is well insulated. The doors and windows, everything's fine. But it's that crack under the door that's the draft. The room's still warm, right? The thermostat is set. The room temperature is the same. Your body temperature is the same. But that little draft, what does it do to your utility bill? Makes it go up, makes you spend more. That's what happens to your metabolic utility bill. You drive it up by basically creating little drafts. You know, gloves before sweater, make you look better. That's the thing you need to think in mind. You want to cover your symptoms, not your disease. Figure out what it is that's making you miserable and get rid of that. Don't just bundle up. Don't just layer. We learned to sleep with covers. Most people tonight will go to bed without covers. We learned to sleep with big duvets when we didn't heat bedrooms. That's what the purpose was. Now we heat the bedroom, and we have the COVID And that weight becomes so psychologically important. That our astronauts have to actually bungee themselves in in place to do that. So just want you to think of that and know that as the temperature goes down. The heat rate that you're losing to the environment goes up. So speaking of astronauts, this is Scott Parazinski, A really good friend of mine. Had a really great job. Basically got to fly five missions and seven spacewalks. 47 hours outside building space stations. Climbed Everest twice. And what's really neat that most people don't know about astronauts in spacesuits is they don't. We don't need heaters. We actually need some heaters in the fingers and warmth. But it turns out they use this liquid ventilation and cooling garment. Because we actually have to pull heat away. See, there's a vacuum over them. They can't dissipate heat. So if we leave them alone, they basically just roast. We are all little 100 watt heaters in here. You add us all up and the load on this H vac system, Something I used in my initial calculations, is we're all heating the room. And if we were all dancing, we'd be heating the room even more. We're little heaters. We're little space heaters. And so we gotta dump. We gotta get rid of that heat. It's all a big problem. And that Heat is fueled by the energy you've stored in your body, primarily in adipose tissue. That's where it is the most, but also in glycogen, so your body can use those things. Now, he's also, though, the chief medical officer this year for Antarctica, a picture he just sent back. And so he's climbed Everest twice. And Scott is really good at extreme medicine, et cetera. And so we've been working together on some devices, some other kinds of things that you're going to probably be seeing in the future that really help you manage this a lot better. But I want to show you this because actually, let me go back because I want to show you this, because I want to show you the difference. Even though Scott's done all those things, I want you to hear this for just a second. So this is Scott in 60F water in my backyard. 65F water in my backyard. And he'd never done this before. But I want you to listen to this story of being cold on Everest. Let's see, there's so many.

Story of being cold on Everest.

Let's see, there's so many that the, the coldest you get, actually, is when you stop moving. So I guess on summit morning, this is May 20, 2009, he's having a hard time thinking, can you guys tell that? 11:30 at night, arriving at the balcony at about 26,000ft, and you got to stop and change out your oxygen cylinders. You've got to do a lot of physical activity. You're off of oxygen. So that adds to the, the burden. Let's go.

Burden.

And yeah, I really felt it then and there, but I don't know. This is. I wasn't shivering as powerfully as this. Yeah, you're shivering. So he climbs Everest and he does all this extreme stuff and he's this extreme athlete, right? But he's shivering in 65 degree water. But watch this interview. Oh, it was 65. That's my son. I walked in really fast, so it wasn't really that cold. It didn't seem that cold. It was still cold, but I got used to it really quick. But a few times ago when I did it, I went in kind of slow and it was pretty cold. Does he look like he's out? He gets out there and gets in the water, doesn't care. You know, we tell him, you know, sit down, don't move, shut up, don't talk, don't ask questions, finish your plate, eat when you're full, and keep, put your jacket on. We teach ourselves this right. We teach them from young. So the bottom line here is just two people in the same temperature water, and it's all about adapting. And the bottom line is Scott could do it as well. Every one of you can do it. It's really not that bad. But I just wanted to show you the difference between that as an example. So you guys have seen the Tim Ferriss. I like this thing because, you know, he would probably kill me if he saw that. Well, he probably would. So he was tw me. I should tweet that picture out, you know, so. But anyway, Tim wrote the Four Hour Body, and Tim had actually done a lot of work himself. And we met together and he said, you know, do you mind me telling your story? And I let him. And it's really done. Well, Wim Hof as well have. We've worked very closely. The bottom line is this stuff works. And so what I want to do now is I want to. I want to go towards this, you know, this idea of something you can do right now that makes a difference. I want to show you how you can mute your response to cold. If you're working in an office and you've got the heaters on the office, if you want to get rid of that, if you want to, you know, just basically burn a little bit more calories, there's a really simple thing you can do. And this is something Wim and I have been working on for some time. Okay. But this is the response I get from everybody when I'm going to tell you to do this stuff, you know, and so, you know, I don't know how many people have gymboss timers. Do you know what I'm talking about? These little. These little things. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about? These little gymboss timers. So I set mine up with an interval of 10 seconds. I call it 10, 2010. But I set it up with an interval. See, I gotta learn to stop. So I set it up with 10, 20, 10. So 10 seconds of warm, 20 seconds of full cold, and just repeat that 10 times. And I want you to end on cold. All right, There we go. So all you're doing is every time you're in warm, your body is dilating, vasodilating, letting the flow go all the way out to your extremities. When you're going cold, your body panics and vasoconstricts dilate, constrict, dilate, constrict, dilate and strict. It's not just jumping in a Cold shower, dilate, constrict, dilate, constrict for what Ben was talking about, about conditioning afterwards for soreness with the bolt up lactic acid, the lactate that's causing that soreness. Dilation, constrict, dilation, constrict. When you end on the cold, you know, basically each time you do this, it'll get easier and easier. If you do this in the morning, you'll be awake because you'll produce serotonin if you do this at night. And remember, serotonin is made from tryptophan. So tryptophan gets up, regulated serotonin. If you do this at night, serotonin, because of your sad cadine clock gets up regulated to melatonin. But does anybody know what melatonin does? How does melatonin make you go to sleep? Does anybody know it causes you to dump heat through your extremities because your body actually has to drop a half degree to fall asleep. Your brain does. And the thing called emrod, maximum rate of decline. The faster your body temperature drives before you go to bed, the faster and easier it is to fall asleep. That's why hospitals are cool, not hot. Because you can't rest when you're hot. I know you're comfortable. I know you like your big downs and your warm and heated beds and all that stuff. You cannot rest if you're having trouble sleeping. You need to start dropping the temperature. And I know it sounds crazy, but the bottom line is it makes a big difference. So basically, in summarizing, I want to come back to where we started and say that essentially, yes, nutrition, exercise, matter a lot, and there's a whole lot to be done there. But I can tell you, everybody has a metabolism. Nobody has a slow metabolism. Nobody has a fast metabolism. Metabolism isn't your problem. You don't need to eat, eat a food to boost your metabolism. You don't need to do anything. I can just tell you, having measured mine for months now in all these different conditions, it just is what it is. And I hate to blow that because I know a lot of people are just, you know, their whole life is about their metabolism. But then just ask them, have you measured it? Have you measured yours? And if you haven't my feeling, I'm telling you I have. And I could be wrong, because I'll learn. But I'm just telling you, it doesn't seem so. It seems like we're focused, overly focused and overly hyped on this because our only way to deal with this excessive food issue was to try to say we're not moving enough. And I think it's time that physicians, healthcare, people, coaches, everybody get beyond that. I know everybody wants people to move. And I'm not saying don't move. I'm not saying don't exercise. I'm not not saying don't participate in sports. What I'm trying to say very specifically is movement isn't why our society became fat, and it isn't going to solve the problem. There's nothing worse someone obese wants to do than get in a gym full of fit people in clothes that don't fit. None of them did. And so the bottom line is just making them do that, especially when you have huge results without it. I just want people to consider and think about it. So, yes, you got to eat for nutrition. You got to make sure that you get the right nutrients and eat the right food and be healthy. And there's a lot of different choices. That's where I'm actually studying now. What that is exercise. If you want to jump higher, run farther, swim faster, whatever you want to do, you have to do it to build up to compete. And if you want to do something like walk or go bike or be active, I'm not saying don't do that. That's great. It feels good. But anything that seems a little bit like a repetitive mood that you wouldn't do if you didn't think you needed to, don't do that, you know, unless you need to do it. You just don't need to. But this thermal environment we live in, always being overly heated all the time, always being ubiquitous in calories, that's the problem. Seven million years of human evolution, if that's a mile, agriculture is the last four and a half feet, and refrigeration and transportation is the last 0.9 inches. It fundamentally changes everything we eat and the environment we live in. And what I'm trying to tell you is that winter never comes. That's the problem. We never have a time of caloric scarcity. We never have a break where we're not eating. We never had a time where we have to endure cold stress. And just like stressing a biologically stressed muscle causes the muscle to grow, don't think for a moment that stressing your body from the cold side, you know, the hypothalamus between pituitary thyroid axis, everybody getting thyroid problems. Our whole temperature regulation system is there. We're chasing bubbles and bumper stickers. We're just pushing the problem around excess calories. Then type 2 diabetes. Type 2 diabetes. Then give them medicine. Medicine overproduces insulin, ever produces insulin, shut down your pancreas. Give them now blood pressure medicine because they've screwed up the problem. We're just treating these symptoms. And I'm saying that you actually. It turns out it's a lot easier. Just don't eat. It's a really big concept. But I have no more food emergencies. I don't have to eat every 24 hours. Even if I go three days, I could be fine. I could outlast any one of you, I guarantee you. And, you know, friends of mine have gone as much as 21 days. And I'm not saying to be miserable because I don't feel all that stuff you guys feel anymore because I'm not obsessed with eating every couple hours. Right? Your symptoms of hunger, headache, lethargy, irritability, lack of focus. Those aren't hunger symptoms. That's what happens when you give up caffeine or cigarettes or alcohol. Those are all withdrawal symptoms. Hunger is in your throat. It's in your mouth. Food tastes good. It doesn't serve an animal to be irritable and lethargic when it's hungry. We need to go. You're actually focused. And. And so what I can say is you can move beyond that stuff and do that. So anyway, thank you for your time. And if we have any questions, we can ask questions.

I do not want to be the person to take him up on that. No eating challenge does not sound fun, but go for it. We'll take questions now, so fire away. We've got five or ten minutes for you guys to pick Ray's brain and.

Put him on the spot. I'd love your opinion about something I experienced. I used to be chronically cold, just chilly all the time. I stopped eating grains, and I don't have that problem anymore. How could that change my thermal genesis? Any thoughts on that? So the question is she stopped eating grains. And. And the question is, could that do it? I mean, the bottom line is food's tied in, but I would say more than likely. We like to see patterns in things. Right now, the grains are the big ohs. Everybody suddenly has a gluten problem, even though I don't know that everybody does have one. Obviously, food matters. I mean, having that whole thing matters. It turns out carbohydrates elicit. Well, protein elicit. It's the highest level of dietary induced thermogenesis. But that's your body trying to get rid of excess food, not trying to heat your Body and carbohydrates are sort of second on the list there. And so, you know, it could have to do with that or it could have to do with just basically your own health and feeling and well being. I mean, it could just be something really simple because, you know, we've got a really sort of fine balance and if you put excess energy in the system, it's got to be dissipated. So in that case, by most people when they eliminate something and they see miraculous results. I gave up crap. I gave up gluten. I gave up whatever. Mostly what they're doing is they're just eliminating calories and that's what a lot of this stuff is.

We have a question from our pay per view audience from Matt, who says are there any synergistic effects in combination with things like coffee?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, in terms of metabolism, there's no doubt if you have anything that is a. Why is the word slipping me right now? Stimulant. Stimulant. That's the word I was looking for. Anything that's a stimulant, it's going to do it. It turns out, though, you need to be real careful with some of these things when you're in cold because some of these things cause you to dump heat really fast. So you want to be really careful about taking any of that kind of thing when you're actually experiencing cold because it'll actually cause you to go too far and you'll get hypothermia. I'm curious if you've done any research that focuses on athletes and if athletes bodies respond the same way as somebody who's obese. Yeah. So the question is if athletes respond the same as obese. And the answer is. Yeah, I mean, our bodies are the same. Obviously they have less body fat to lose, but the body works about the same. Now they're going to usually have a pretty good high resting metabolism weight to a similar weight person who's not an athlete. So if we're similar weight. You're an athlete.

I'm not.

Your RMR is going to be higher and your heart rate is probably going to be lower. But if I got a bigger guy, his RMR is probably going to be higher. Maybe his heart rate is higher. So if that makes sense. But yeah, I think the cold is it. You know, we're designed to be there. Probably we're not designed to be a little bit fatter than our slim figure models are. You know, we go a little bit extreme. We can go extreme because food is not a problem. But if food were a problem and you weren't going to eat for a bunch of days, you wouldn't really want to go down. Next question. Can you further explain how you're producing serotonin in the morning and melatonin in the evening, naturally from the shower? Yeah. So, yeah, the question is, can you explain about serotonin and melatonin? There's actually some really good research on this. You know, essentially your body is stimulated by that cold rush. And it's just like anything else. You know, you get a cold rush, it wakes you up. But what you're producing has to do with where you are in your circadian rhythm. So if you're in morning time, it's morning, then you're in. Basically you're producing serotonin and it's staying as serotonin because it's daytime. But if you're in your circadian night and you produce a boatload of serotonin, and they do it like in seasonal affective disorder, they put bright light in the winter. Right. You're bringing summer into winter. You're bringing bright light because bright light also does it, but so does cold stress. So it does it through cortisol, norephedrine, the same things that produce it in the morning produce it at night. But now, because it's night, the body says, time to go to sleep. Produce melatonin from it. So within your own house, then do.

You have to have a darker environment?

Yeah, this is an important point. Yes. In the house, I now no longer go to sleep with lights on, tv, music, anything. So if you want to do. If you want to get to sleep really fast, do that contrast shower, dry off, you're going to be cold, get in bed, dark, dark room, and you'll be in sleep in probably five to seven minutes. You'll fall asleep so fast. And it's also not melatonin. If you guys come to me later and ask, I'll show you some of the stuff I don't. Melatonin, it's actually a pretty cool thing. If you haven't ever tried it, it really helps. In terms of sleep. Yeah. Just at night. Yeah. So if you had a client that wanted to lose fat, what are the top three or four things you would suggest in their day? What are the shower. What else would you say to them to change their thermal load? Yeah. So the question is about if someone wanted to lose weight. So the very first thing is control your diet. It's all about food. Okay. And so you have to get rid of all the calorie dense foods, okay? So you got to stop thinking protein, carbs are fat. You got to stop thinking, rev your metabolism. It's just calories. So you're not going to get fat on cucumbers. You might get fat on a steak. It turns out that. Has anybody seen the potato thing that I started last summer? Has anybody done it? The two. So if you go out there and look, you'll find it out there. I've got a bunch of people, but the answer is I would get them on eating so they're getting some nutrients. But we don't have a nutrient emergency. You don't just suddenly run out of B12. You don't suddenly run out of leucine, isoleucine or valine, the branched chain amino acids. You don't run out of these things. Your body has some. As long as you're getting some kind of food, your body's gonna start being more conservative. So putting calories way down. And it turns out studies have shown that really low calorie diets actually have less in the recitivin. Right. They actually have a better result than some of the ones because it takes too long and people fall off. So just doing that and then obviously swimming, but not intense swimming water dumps heat fast. If you can get them in water, they feel buoyant, they feel it's something, it's an activity they can do and they're losing heat. The big thing is if you are a swimmer, two to four hours after you swim is when you're to going to overeat. So make sure you do not have protein shakes. All the stuff they tell you to do, don't do that after your thermal load because you're going to be hungry and you'll overeat. Really high fiber, really low calorie kind of food is better just after your swim. So one more question and I think we have to end.

I was just going to ask in regards to the shower part of it because I do a lot of contrast showering stuff. So just being happy recovery wise. I was wondering why he chose the intervals of the 10 and 20 seconds versus some other literature. That's more like five minutes and two minutes, four minutes in one minute.

Right. So his question was he does contrast shadows real quick. How do they work for you? Do you feel the results?

Yeah, so I was going to say that too. Especially when I was coming back from my hamstring injuries and stuff too. That was one thing I would do, just vasoconstriction. There's A dilation, just to get my. My body back, essentially. And I kind of agree with you, too. Wakes you up in the morning, for sure, and then at night, it's that same thing. It's a lot easier to go to sleep.

Yeah, it was great. So. Yeah, so he asked about the intervals. Why I chose the intervals mainly because I wanted to be easy. I wanted to be easy for anyone to do. So the 10 seconds, 20 seconds is just so, you know, it's all over in four minutes. It doesn't take long. I want you to end on cold, by the way. If you go skiing, if you've been running, if you're doing anything with your legs, right. When you get out of that cold water, if you'll have a cold bath waiting for you, just turn it on. Whatever the temperature is coming out of the tap this time of year, whatever it is, you'll go right to the shower and sit in it. It'll really make a big difference. You probably do ice baths some afterwards or whatever.

Yeah, Sometimes I believe, a little bit more of the contrast.

Yeah. I'm saying in addition to the contrast, after you're finished, you'll do that. That'll actually help. You'll get all sorts. When I went skiing, I had run. I haven't done anything for two years now, and I didn't have any soreness. In four days of skiing down Telluride, it was fine. Okay, so I think we have Ray Kernas, everybody.