Are You Fit, Not Healthy? The Shocking Story Of What Happens When You Exercise Too Much, And What You Can Do About It.

Hey, it's Ben Greenfield, and I'm still in airplane mode, speaking at different conferences around the US So in lieu of our normal Q and A episode, I have yet another special interview with you. A really shocking one about what happens when you overtrain and exercise too much. And a story that I think anyone who's keen on working out should listen to.

This once healthy hobby did evolve into a more dangerous obsession, and I wanted to just run more and more. I wanted more of that run as high. I wanted to keep my body weight low. I wanted to run faster. But I had a lot of sensations down the back of my legs, feeling like the skin was too tight, someone was stretching my skin. I felt drunk 24 hours a day. For some people, it might be that they're escaping problems in their lives. You know, that's sort of a distraction because I never rested. I did intense sessions day after day after day. My Cortisol levels were 20 times what they should have been.

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Hey, folks, it's Ben Greenfield. And as you probably know, exercise is supposed to be good for you, but for some people, exercise can become a deadly obsession and it can also turn into something that is unhealthy. And my guest in today's podcast episode is Vanessa Alford. And Vanessa has written a book called Fit Not Healthy. I finished the book recently, and it's an excellent warning to any of us high achievers who are driven to extremes to excel. And in the story, Vanessa talks about how she got to the point where right in the middle of a race, a marathon, I believe she simply collapsed after losing sensation in her legs and at that point had to nurse herself back to health from digging herself pretty deep into the hole from an exercise standpoint. So in today's episode, Vanessa and I are going to talk about what it means to be fit but not healthy, what happened to Vanessa, and what you can do if you're finding yourself dug into an exercise hole or perhaps chasing an exercise addiction or an unhealthy version of the runner's high. So, Vanessa, thanks for coming on the call.

Thank you for having me.

So, you know, I know it's kind of an involved question as you wrote an entire book about it, but how did you get to the point where you collapsed in the middle of a race? I mean, were you just like a runner your whole life and you dug yourself into this hole over time or what exactly happened?

Yeah, so it was definitely a gradual process. I have always been fairly fit and very active. Growing up, I played a lot of tennis and netball and I ran a little bit just to keep fit. I didn't really enjoy it, but I did it to keep fit. After graduating from university, I moved to the north of Australia, where the weather was quite warm. I was living by the beach and so I just started running more and more. My six kilometer runs became eight, which became ten, and so on. And at the end of that year, I actually ran my first marathon. I did it just for fun. I really enjoyed it. I had a great experience.

So I'm just curious when your short runs, like your 5Ks and your 10Ks, eventually became longer and longer runs? And I think you describe in the book how it started with just a run down the beach that eventually got longer and longer for you, was it getting longer and longer because you knew you were going to run a marathon and you wanted to lay down that long fitness? Or for you, was it because you were getting that runner's high and wanted to keep it going for longer periods of time, or trying to burn more calories with each run, or trying to somehow mark a new exercise period of time each day?

I think it was a bit of everything. Every. All of the above. Initially, it was definitely just to try and run my first marathon. I knew I needed to put in the miles, as you do when you run a marathon. But over that year, I dropped a few kilos, unintentionally. I was never overweight, but I did drop a few kilos. I was quite lean, you know, the compliments flowed and I love that. And within a couple of years, you know, I developed this identity as a marathon runner. And I guess it was at that point where things became a little unhealthy, you know, where this obsession developed. So this once healthy hobby did evolve into a more dangerous obsession and. And I wanted to just run more and more. I wanted more of that run as high, I wanted to keep my body weight low, I wanted to run faster. And like I said, that's when it became unhealthy and it started taking over my.

Now, were you doing other things at this point too, in addition to running, or was it for you, was it all running?

Yes, I was riding everywhere. I never sort of drove, just. It was again, just. I Loved it. I loved being in the outdoors and I can't stand traffic, so I was riding probably 15 to 20 kilometers a day, so not a lot. But I was never really resting. I was working as a physiotherapist. I was on my feet all day, every day. So, yeah, basically I didn't really have any rest time. And as the miles increased, as I started running more and more, like I said, that's when my body sort of started craving rest. But I never gave it. I never gave it rest.

Gotcha. So as you were going out and doing these things for longer and longer periods of time, what was going on as far as, like, your body composition, your weight, your menstrual cycle, things along those lines? Was your body sending you warning signs?

Well, initially, like I said, it was just like I became quite lean, not too lean. Looking back, I wasn't too lean in the beginning, but I loved it. You know, I had a bit of a six pack and I carried very little fat, and I did love that. And that's what. I guess I wanted to maintain that. Over time, however, it did become a bit of an obsession. I started counting every calorie that went into my mouth. I started limiting the amount of calories that I told myself I was allowed. And over the next couple of years, my body weight did drop quite a lot. And at the time, I didn't see it, but. But looking back now at photos, I was way too lean in terms of my menstrual cycle. I was on the pill, so I thought my periods were as regular as could be, my menstrual cycle was as regular as could be. And it didn't really occur to me at the time that it was actually a tablet that was regulating it, not my own body. So, yeah, looking back, I wasn't fertile or my menstrual cycle wasn't doing what it should have done for many, many years. So it definitely affected that.

And you had a boyfriend at the time too, right?

I did have a boyfriend and he's now my husband, believe it or not.

So during the time that you were doing all this, what did he think? Was he out running with you or was he kind of doing his own thing?

He was out running with me for some of it, but definitely not all of it because no one would have done the amounts that I did. I am very, very lucky that he hung around. Everyone who has read my book has referred to him as either, you know, a saint or the best guy that you could have have in your life, because I Am lucky because he wasn't number one in my life at the time. Running was number one. It was my priority. I was very selfish. And when I think back to some of the things I did or didn't do, you know, it's quite embarrassing that running was the most important thing and it meant putting other things on hold, which really should have been more important.

Now, as far as your marathoning goes, you were getting more lean, Were you also getting faster and more successful? I mean, was it paying off?

To a certain extent I was. And that's kind of the problem. I became a bit too good too quickly. Within two years of running my first marathon, I'd come third at the Melbourne Marathon. I'd run under three hours. I had sponsors, people were talking Commonwealth Games. Yeah, I did. I guess I improved too quickly, I think, and I got a little bit carried away with it. So it was that as well. It was just wanting to succeed, wanting to run faster, wanting to push harder. You know, every training session I would set myself a time goal and I do everything possible to achieve it. So it's like I was racing every single training session against myself.

So what happened when you got to the point where you actually collapsed during a race? I mean, had you experienced other signs other than being really lean and maybe some disruptions in fertility up till that point? Did it just come out of the blue that you collapsed during a race or were there concerns leading up to that point?

There were definitely concerns from people around me. I had doctors, I had my boyfriend, my parents telling me to slow down and put on weight and start looking after myself. But to me, I was like, what do they know? They're not marathon runners. I'm not going to listen to them. I had two stress fractures. They're probably the biggest warning signs that I just chose to ignore. I just thought, well, I'm a marathon runner, of course I get stress fractures. But looking back, that was probably the first. They were the first, first warning signs that I was overdoing it and I wasn't giving my body time to heal. So, yeah, apart from those, it was pretty sudden. It was actually during a training run. I was going for a run one day, just a normal sort of 12 kilometer run. And halfway through that run I started feeling very light headed, quite dizzy. I felt like the ground was uneven. I felt like my legs were not connected to me, like I had no control of my legs. Them all of a sudden it was frightening. And yeah, at the end of that run, I finished it. I was always going to finish my 12k, because that was my goal. But I sort of collapsed to the ground and burst out into tears. And then it all started from there. Four years of horrible, distressing symptoms.

So you went through four years after you collapsed in that marathon. Was that four years just basically you sitting around waiting to recover, or was it more of a. Because I see this all the time with athletes. It's a yo yo cycle where they're like, okay, I'm gonna take five days off and maybe I'll be good and start training. And they go deeper into the hole. Like, how did it work for you?

Exactly like that. It was a yo yo cycle. The first six months, I could not run my body. I was too fatigued. I could barely get out of bed. So I had chronic fatigue. You know, I was chronically fatigued for about six months to the point where I had to stop working and I had to move back in with my parents because I couldn't even go shopping. Within six months, my fatigue lifted. And I say it's thanks to a kinesiologist that I saw. I think he really, really helped me. But once my fatigue lifted, I got back into running again. My symptoms. I had a lot of neurological symptoms and they hung around. And the thing was, they were there regardless of whether I ran or not.

What do you mean, neurological symptoms?

They sound weird explaining them even now, I think. Really? Did I feel this? But I had a lot of sensations down the back of my legs. Feeling like the skin was too tight, someone was stretching my skin. I felt drunk 24 hours a day. I felt dizzy. I felt very foggy in the head. So I couldn't really have a one on one conversation with anyone because that fog would just get worse and worse. I couldn't concentrate. But it was that unsteady feeling that was just horrible. It was like you're on a boat. The whole time. I felt like someone was pushing me over. When I walked, I looked normal. If you'd seen me walk down the street, I look normal. But that's what I was feeling. And it was just horrible. And to have no control of your body after having such control for so many years was quite frightening. And the worst was not knowing what was causing it. I knew deep down that it was a result of my training. But I was also partially convinced that I had some neurological condition. And that was the most frightening bit.

So how did the recovery cycle progress from there?

So for four years, I searched for answers. I spent thousands and thousands of dollars seeing doctors and other healthcare professionals just begging people to find an answer. But now that I'm on the outside looking in, it was so obvious that it was just my body saying enough is enough.

The whole time that you were searching, were you still trying to exercise?

Yeah, I was because it made me feel good. For that half an hour or that hour, I felt okay. I didn't feel good, but at least I had that adrenaline rush. So mentally I felt good and it didn't make a difference if I exercised or not. I still had those symptoms. So that's why I kept exercising and I kept pushing my body and part of me wanted to punish my body even more because of what it was inflicting on me. So it was a big vicious cycle. And if you ask me what the turning point was, it was when I wanted to get pregnant. My husband and I got married in 2010 and we've always wanted to have a family. And I knew deep down that I wasn't fertile and that I would not get pregnant if I continued my current lifestyle. And so, you know, when I want something, I want it now. And so I did everything possible to try and get pregnant. And I went from exercising 14 times a week to three. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do psychologically. But I'm very goal orientated. So because I suddenly had this new goal in mind that made the whole change a lot easier. And yeah, I was very lucky that I did. I put on seven kilos in two months and I fell pregnant a couple of months after that.

Wow. Congratulations. So you found something more meaningful to you than running. You found something else to almost replace that high that you were getting from exercise?

Exactly. Well, I wouldn't say it replaced it. I mean, feeling pregnant, you definitely don't get that high. But definitely I had this new goal. Like I said, I'm very goal orientated and that was part of the problem with my running. But suddenly I had this new goal and I that I just had to change my ways if I was to accomplish that goal. And like I said, it was the hardest thing I've ever had to do psychologically. But just keeping my focus on getting pregnant, I managed to do it. But I know I'm one of the lucky ones. I know there are a lot of people out there who maybe were in a similar situation over exercising and they're still struggling to get pregnant. It's not always that easy.

Yeah, I have a picture of you over in the show notes. And by the way, for those of you listening into this, you can go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com fit, not healthy. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com Fit, not healthy. And the picture that I have of you, Vanessa, is you running. And you just look. You look miserable as you're running, right? Like, you're struggling through, and you're hating every moment of it. And the reason I wanted to do this podcast with you is I run into so many people who kind of get that same look on their face when they're exercising. You can tell they're trapped, right, because they don't know what else to do to get that. That exercise high, you know? And that's. That's actually. That's one of the first pieces of advice that I give to people a lot of times when they're stuck in this boat. And I explained to them that they need to go through a reboot cycle and avoid exercise. They're like, well, what do I do for, you know, for fun or to get that dopamine release? And I'm like, sex, funny movies, a musical instrument, reading good books. I mean, there are things that you can do that are also fun.

There are. But I think exercise addiction is very common in our society amongst both men and women. There are a lot of people out there who are pushing their bodies to extremes, striving for the perfect physique and to be the fastest they can. So that's why I wanted to get my story out there, to warn others of the potential consequences of not listening to your body and to reiterate how important our health is. It's much more important than how we look or how fast we run.

So how can you understand the difference, like the crossing point, between just a pure runner's high, an exercise making you feel really good, and an actual exercise addiction?

Well, I think a runner's high. I mean, most of us have felt a runner's high. You know, you feel great after a good workout, after a good sweat. You know, it makes you feel good. But an addiction, you know, it's an addiction when you actually miss that feeling. You feel like something's missing if you don't have it. And for me, it got to the point where I actually no longer felt that extreme high after a run, but I just felt that extreme low if I didn't run. So that, you know, I felt this emptiness like something was missing from my day. It's kind of like an alcoholic who has these withdrawal symptoms if they don't drink, or a drug addict who, you know, has withdrawal symptoms if they're coming off drugs. It is similar. I craved it, you know, I needed it. So that's when it becomes unhealthy.

But what do you say to the people who say that that's, that's normal because exercise gives you, like, the dopamine release and the release of happy neurotransmitters and makes you feel good and gives you the fresh air that if you don't do it, that it's like some kind of a good mechanism that you feel bad about yourself?

Well, so how do I tell people that that's. That it's okay to.

Well, how do you explain to people that it's. It's actually still an addiction? Like. Like it's actually potentially a. Something that is harming you, even though you may feel good after you do it, or you may be attracted to it for whatever high that you may get during it, because you'll get that. A lot of people say, well, whatever. Maybe a marijuana high could be bad for your liver or an alcoholic high. Same thing could be bad for your liver, bad for your hormones. But an exercise high is just you doing good things for your body. So it's okay?

Well, yeah, you think it is, but I think my story shows that it's actually not the case. Too much of anything is not a good thing to those people. I would ask them the question, do you really feel good every day? I know you feel good straight after a run, you got that high, but what about for the rest of the day? Are you feeling fatigued? Are you moody? Are you feeling sore when you wake up? Because that's what I was feeling. But I ignored all that because I knew that I'd get this adrenaline release if I did another session. But I remember walking upstairs at work and my legs were burning, My quads were so tired and fatigued, and I was a bit moody. It was all to do with the overtrain training. So I think anyone who is actually addicted to exercise isn't actually enjoying every second of their day. They're not feeling well all the time.

One of the things I like to think about when I ask myself whether or not I'm doing an exercise session because I'm addicted to exercise. And my day isn't going to feel complete to me unless I do it versus doing exercise for the performance enhancement benefits or the longevity benefits is if I can meet or exceed my previous day's performance.

Yes.

So like, like a few days ago, I was doing Murph, which is like this CrossFit workout where you run a mile and you do 100 pull ups and 200 push ups and 300 squats and then you, then you run a mile. It's, it's a. Sounds fun, hard workout.

Yeah.

But my, my first mile took me eight and a half minutes, which for me is, is, you know, and, and granted I'm leaving my house and running straight up a hill when I'm running that mile. But I knew as soon as I finished that first mile that I had no business doing the rest of Murph because my body was beat up enough to the point where I, you know, I wasn't even within a minute of my normal mile. And so for me, that's a big question I ask myself is whether I'm actually improving performance and I'm able to go fast versus I'm just doing it to go through the motion.

Yeah, exactly. And that's what a lot of people are. They're doing it just to go through the motion. Just because, you know, for me it was like, I've done it the day before, I might as well do it again today. You know, I'm going to burn more calories, I'm going to feel good after. It's about a bit of self worth as well and success in having completed a session. But you're right, if you're not performing well and everything's more of an effort, then they're definitely signs that your body needs more rest.

Now, what's going on? I do want to talk about the physiology and the biology of this in terms of hormones and neurotransmitters. But as far as physiologically, when people are feeling like they need to maybe not even just go out and do exercise, but when people feel that urge to go do a triathlon or a harder triathlon or a marathon or an adventure race or kind of like the next level up, that might be the notch in the belt or their personal Mountain Everest or whatever. What's going on psychologically, do you think?

I think if you look at a lot of people who do these type of things, there's a lot of type A personalities out there. They're goal driven, they're successful. Generally they're a bit of maybe perfectionist. And I think it is all about feeling that success, you know, whether it is just accomplishing a certain time in your 10 kilometer run or whether it is doing an adventure race that you haven't done before. It's all about trying to accomplish something you haven't done before. For me, I used to, like I said earlier, I used to set goals every training session, usually around A certain time that I had to complete it in, and I had to do everything possible to achieve that. And that's where I felt like I had succeeded. If I'd done that, if I didn't achieve it, then I felt like I had failed. So I think a lot of it is that for some people it might be that they're escaping problems in their lives. It's sort of a distraction. And again, achieving a certain goal, be it completing a race, it makes them feel good, makes them feel in control.

So people who, for example, may have experienced a failure at some point in their life or not had success, whether athletically or from a career standpoint or a relationship standpoint, they're potentially using exercise and specifically using these feats of physical performance to somehow compensate for that.

Yeah, to feel good about themselves, to feel like they have succeeded, to feel some self worth, definitely. And for me, if you talk about the psychological aspect, this inner voice in my head started controlling me. It controlled me for four years. It made sure that I wasn't lazy, that I didn't take a day. It made me count every calorie that went into my mouth. And it did make me feel guilty if I didn't do the right thing. So it was all about this guilt trip that it inflicted on me. And that was the hardest thing to overcome, to battle this inner voice in my head that really dictated every part of my life. And it was really hard to escape.

Do you think that's okay to use something like this as a compensating mechanism? I mean, like, you know, I've certainly experienced failures in my life. Like, for example, I used to want to be a professional tennis player. That was like, for a good four years of my life, that's what I wanted to do. But I didn't make it. As a matter of fact, when I got to college, I realized I sucked compared to a lot of the other folks who had been playing since they were six years old and had done international tours. And here I was, a small hometown boy from Washington there in college, and I started college early, I was 16 years old and just got, you know, got destroyed. And that's also the point at which I began a lot of kind of like a hardcore drive for academic success. And, you know, and then eventually I really got involved in triathlons and bodybuilding and all these other things. But do you think that that's okay to use something like that as a compensating mechanism?

I think it's okay if it doesn't go to extremes. I Mean, exercise is healthy. And any psychologist will probably tell you if someone's depressed that they'll recommend exercise. So definitely exercise is a good thing for you psychologically. But if it's too extreme like it was with me, then no, it's not a good thing. Just like anything's not a good thing if it's to excess, everything in moderation.

Now, speaking from more of like a neurological standpoint, because you talked about how many of these sensations that you had, like the tightness of the skin and the strange feeling in the legs, like you found out later that was something going on neurologically, what's happening that when you need more and more exercise to achieve that same high, like you went from an 8k to a 10k to a 12k to marathoning, is there something going on from a neurological or physiological standpoint that requires you to need more and more to get the same effect? The same as you would experience with alcohol or drugs?

To be honest, I don't know. But I would say probably even now I find that the fitter I am, the more I have to push my body to feel that I've done anything. When I'm super fit, I need to fully do a high intensity interval session to feel like I've actually done anything that was worth getting out of bed for. But physiologically, I'm not actually sure what's actually happening. I just know that it's part of the addiction. Your body craves more and more of it. And I guess the more that it gets, the more it needs. Again, like an alcoholic, the more they drink, the more they need to have to feel an effect. So it's the same thing with the, you know, the release of neurotransmitters and adrenaline. You just need more of it, the more you have.

Yeah, I think it, you know, and for me, coming at this from an exercise physiology standpoint, I do think that you hit the nail on the head there, you know, when you're talking about adrenaline and needing more of that. Because when you're, you know, thrashing through a hard hour long run and you're activating your sympathetic nervous system, you're getting a big dump of things like adrenaline and serotonin. And your brain, your pituitary gland specifically releases a bunch of these endorphins and those block pain signals from reaching your brain. And so you get this euphoria, you get that high. But the way that endorphins work is they bind to receptors the same way as opioids do, like heroin, for example, and heroin Addicts know that they need more and more to get that same fix. And what happens is your tolerance to endorphins goes up and you need more and more to fill up all those receptor sites. And so you need an increase in exercise volume or an increase in exercise intensity. And I know that psychologically there's probably a little bit going on there, too, but from a biological standpoint, it's literally the same thing that's happening when you get addicted to everything from caffeine to marijuana to opioids. It's just like your receptors eventually become insensitive, or you need more and more of the actual chemical to fill all those new receptors that you're building.

Yep, that's spot on.

Interesting. So do you know when you feel down or you feel lazy or you feel depressed? If you stop exercising at the same volume or the same frequency that you were at before, do you know if that's very similar in terms of that feeling, if that's similar to what's going on when depression sets in or something like that, or if there's something different? I mean, did you find out anything about yourself in terms of testing or your blood, your biomarkers, things like that?

Yeah, not really. I think it all comes down to exactly what you talked about before, that your body just gets so used to having all this release of chemicals, whatever it may be, that you have withdrawal symptoms if you don't. And that does make you feel down. It makes you feel a bit depressed, and it's a big vicious cycle because you want more of it. But then that's not doing any good for your body. And for me, it was just a big vicious cycle. I felt terrible, but I kept exercising. That made me feel a bit worse, but I just knew that I would feel better psychologically if I did it. And I think that's why it was four years of torture, because I was caught in this spiral.

What kind of tests did you run when you got to this point? Just because I'm curious, folks can come away with some things that they could test and identify.

I tested everything that you could think of. So the first ones really were, I guess, my vitamin levels. You know, B vitamins, because if they're low, then you'll feel extreme fatigue. I got tested for every virus that you can think of. My adrenal function was tested, which was pretty much. It had been affected, but that wasn't causing everything that I was feeling. I had a lot of. I had a few MRIs on my brain and my spinal cord because, like, I said earlier I was convinced that I had a neurological condition. Just some of the symptoms I was feeling were indicative of certain neurological conditions. So, yeah, I had blood test after blood test, and then I saw different, I guess, alternative therapists who looked at a deeper level. I had Chinese acupuncture. I saw a couple of kinesiologists. So, yeah, the list goes on and on and on.

You pretty much did everything. I run into a lot of people, actually, who come to me to help walk them through recovering from adrenal fatigue or recovering from. From over exercise. And that's what you find in many cases, people do every single test on the face of the planet when obviously the glaring issue is that you got it. They're running all these tests while also running an hour a day.

That's right.

They can't run because they have a stress fracture. Swimming, cycling, lifting, CrossFit, whatever. But ultimately, did you find specific biomarkers that really leapt out?

There's only one that. Well, there's two. So one was all my sex hormones were pretty much zero, which was no surprise. They had been for quite a couple of years. That wasn't causing my symptoms. But what I did find, it was from the kinesiologist got me to test my cortisol levels and he actually did a saliva test. I'd had blood tests and they showed that they were a little bit elevated, but nothing too severe. But the saliva test really showed something quite significant. They were 20 times above what they should have been. So cortisol is a stress hormone that you release when you exercise, but when you stop exercising, they drop back to normal levels. Levels. Because I never rested. I did intense sessions day after day after day. My cortisol levels were 20 times what they should have been.

20 times.

Yeah. Cortisol can have some pretty nasty effects on the nervous system. So that's really the only, I guess, link that I can see with the symptoms that I was feeling. Because still to this day, I am a little surprised, or I still find it a little hard to believe how all of my training manifested as these neurological symptoms. The fatigue, of course, I get that, that. But some of these weird symptoms I had down my legs, I still find it hard to see the link. But that's where when we found out that my cortisol was so high. Well, like I said, it can have nasty effects on the brain and the nervous system. So there's a little bit of a link there.

Yeah. It's interesting too, that you say cortisol is high, and I don't know if you're familiar with this concept, but in many cases, you'll see people who reach such a state of adrenal fatigue that they're no longer producing adequate. Adequate cortisol. And so cortisol, in many cases will test, you know, like, low all day long.

Right.

The body. Even in the morning, when the body is supposed to be producing a healthy little dose of cortisol to wake you up, it's not producing anything. Okay, but you've. You found in your state that it was just, like, high.

Yeah, it was 20 times higher than what it should have been. And I did that. I did do the tests throughout the day. I did sort of four tests throughout the day, so I had to do it at specific times, but, yeah, they just remained elevated.

Yeah, it's called an adrenal stress index. That actual. That test. So that's interesting. Now, also, you mentioned that you were really watching every morsel of food, every bite that went into your mouth. Do you find, when you're talking with folks, that anorexia is typically a part of this equation? And the reason I ask is it seems like I run into some people, people who train to eat and eat to train.

Right.

And that's part of their overtraining, is they have no problem with anorexia. They're seeing too much damn food, the tons of chocolate bars and everything else, and then just crushing themselves with exercise to burn off those calories. But for you, that wasn't the case?

Well, look, I'd say it was. I was definitely exercising to burn calories as well. But, yeah, I wasn't overeating, put it that way. I was probably eating. I mean, there was a short time where I was really restricting, but not for that long. But most of the time, I was eating what you would recommend someone to eat if they want to lose a little bit of weight to eat really quite healthy. Not too much fat, obviously, a few good fats. But for the amount of calories I was burning when I was running one or two or three hours a day, it was nowhere near enough. I'm not sure of the prevalence, but I think a lot of people who are addicted to exercise also become obsessed with their body weight. For me, in the beginning, the more I ran, the less I wanted junk food. I just wanted to eat healthy. And my weight started falling a little bit. I dropped a few kilos, and that's where I felt great. And I developed this identity as a marathon runner. But within a year or so, it became a bit dangerous because I Did everything possible to maintain that identity and to stay lean. And that's when I did start counting every calorie that went into my mouth. And I made sure I didn't eat too many carbohydrates. So, yeah, I wasn't fueling my body enough for what I was burning. Wow.

So how long did it actually take? Was it, was it a full four years before you really did actually get to the point where you were fertile enough to have a baby and your cortisol wasn't so jacked up and a lot of these issues went away? Or did it happen more quickly than four years?

Well, it was four years of feeling unwell, four years of the horrible symptoms and fatigue, six months of fatigue. But four years of all these neurological symptoms. But as soon as I decided I wanted to have a baby, that's when I just flicked the switch and my lifestyle changed quite dramatically. So, yeah, I went from exercising 14 times to three times. I ate a lot more. I put on seven kilos in a couple of months from the day I made that promise to myself. It was only about three months until I got pregnant. But I think I was one of the lucky ones where it happened so quickly now in terms of all my symptoms, they just slowly went away while I was pregnant. So over the next few months, I just started feeling better again. When I had the baby, I felt amazing and I haven't looked back since. Looking back, it was definitely the overtraining that was causing those symptoms. But at the time I was so caught up in it all that I just didn't see that that's exactly what was causing those symptoms. And I just kept pushing my body.

Have you heard the story about the rats who will run until they drop dead on an exercise wheel?

Yeah, I have, I have.

It's really interesting. They actually take away calories and you would expect a rat, perhaps if it had a ton of calories that would just run and run and run an exercise wheel and maybe, I don't know, die of too many stress fractures or inflammation or something like that. But in this case, they actually took away calories and the rats ran and ran and ran until they died. And what the researchers, this was way back in the 60s that they did this test and they figured that if there was some kind of a famine or there wasn't enough food around, that you would have to have this built in mechanism to move and move and move until you found food. And in this case, the rats were just like running and running and running in hopes that somehow Running would allow them to find food and then they eventually died.

Well, that's probably what would happen if we kept running, right? If we ignored all the warning signs. If you had enough mental strength to do that. And I'm sure that's probably what would happen to us as well.

Yeah, but it's very interesting because, I mean, and you see this among like, you know, persistence hunting populations and folks like that too, right? Like running is a means of survival. Chronic repetitive motion is a means of survival. And it's almost like those of us living in a modern world where typically we have enough calories somehow. Part of it, you know, is obviously the endorphin high and some of those opioid mechanisms I talked about earlier. But perhaps another part of it is that built in genetic mechanism that makes us want to move for long periods of time, especially like if we're on a diet or something like that, because our body is getting this message that it needs to move along in order to survive.

Yeah, it's interesting. It'd be interesting to do it with humans, but I don't think we can do that.

Yeah, just thinking out loud here. So as far as the advice that you give to people, what would be some of your biggest tips that you would dish out to folks who are listening in, who may feel like they're dug into an exercise hole or like they're addicted to exercise or perhaps they're headed down the same path that you were going down?

Well, the first thing I would say is to just take a step back and ask yourself the question, are you really happy and why are you over exercising? Is it to stay lean? Is it to increase your fitness or your speed? Or are you trying to escape other things in your life? So I guess they need to ask themselves that question before they can work out how to, I guess, overcome it. Yeah. The other thing I would say is I totally understand how difficult it is when you're so caught up in it. But yeah, you need to consider other things in your life that really are more important than exercise and should take greater priority. But I know it's easier said than done. It's very hard when you are caught up in it.

Yeah. Yeah. So are you running now?

I am, yes. I've just had.

I mean, not like right now while we're recording.

Not right now. Oh, you never know. I could be. No, I've just had another baby. So I am running. I'm running to keep fit. I'm satisfied these days with just 30 or 40 minutes. I don't have to push my body to extreme or get my heart rate up to 200 to feel satisfied. I run because I love it. It makes me feel good. And especially these days with two young kids, it's me time. So I really need that half an hour, hour every day just to get out there and clear my head and get fresh air and have time to myself. So, yeah, I do exercise. Not every day, probably five times a week. I also teach Pilates, so my job is sort of related to fitness. But I definitely feel better if I am exercising. And look, there's always going to be a little part of me that's addicted to exercise. Like, I want to do it every day, but if I can't do it for whatever reason one day, I don't beat myself up about it.

What have you found to be the sweet spot for exercise that allows you to feel fit and healthy but not feel like you're addicted as far as, like, minutes per day or minutes per week?

Yeah, I think. I mean, I like to do something every day, but I am satisfied with just a walk. Now. I do like to get my heart rate up, you know, three or four times a week. So I try to, I guess, plan the week at the start of the week and say, okay, well, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I'll just do a light jog. And maybe Tuesday, Thursday I'll go a little bit harder. And then. And then Saturday I'll have a rest day, something like that. So I think it is all about finding that balance. I'm also a lot better now at listening to my body. So if I do feel a bit fatigued, then I know that the next day I've just got to back off and not do anything. I also fuel my body a lot better these days. I don't count every calorie that goes into my mouth. I eat what I would like to eat. I'm relatively healthy, but I don't beat myself up if I have a couple of desserts. So, yeah, it is everything in moderation. It's about finding that balance. And, you know, these days I have other priorities in my life. I've got two beautiful daughters and a husband. And, yeah, there's other things going on that, you know, I guess are more important than running, but I make sure that I have the balance.

Yeah, it's such a good point, too, that I want to make sure that we don't underemphasize. You have things in your life that are important. Right. Like you have a greater purpose now. You have a meaning. And I think that that's really important is for folks who are perhaps pursuing exercise as the end all or as the reason they get out of bed in the morning, you have to find something. I mean, because again, there's nothing wrong with exercise and certainly there are some people listening and I know who are pro athletes. Right. Like that is your paycheck and that is your identity. But for a lot of other folks, if the exercise is your identity and if you're rolling out of bed in the morning knowing that that day is not going to feel complete until you've ticked off the 60 minutes or the 90 minutes or the two hours, I really do think one of the best things that you can do is find meaning in life. And I know saying that is much easier than actually doing it. But once you find that greater purpose, once you find something that actually fulfills you way more than exercise would, whether it be a relationship, whether it be kids, whether it be writing a book, whether it be going out and helping the homeless or helping to feed people in your local community, there's all sorts of things that all of a sudden make exercise seem not that terribly important once you've discovered them.

That's right. Exercise should just be something that you include in your day, but it doesn't take up the whole part of your day and it doesn't control your life.

Yeah, it's such a good point because I do know there are so many people, and I've certainly found myself in this spot before as well, who just live for physical activity. Live for that exercise high. So I'm really glad you wrote this book, Vanessa.

I'm glad it's out there.

It's a fantastic read.

Thank you.

I have no clue how it wound up on my doorstep. I think your book agent sent me. But either way, I'll link to the book and also to some of the other things that we talked about today over on the show. Notes, notes. So if you're listening in, you can go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com Fit Not Healthy. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com fitnothealthy. You can check out Vanessa's story, her book by the same name and everything else that we talked about. So, Vanessa, thanks for coming on the show.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

All right, folks. Well, this is Ben Greenfield and Vanessa Alford from Finn Fit Not Healthy signing out from the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast. Have a healthy week.

BenGreenfieldFitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness nutrition and performance advice.

Sam.