BenGreenfield-KevinMoats.mp3

Hey, folks, it's Ben Greenfield. And on the call with me today is a top age grouper triathlete. His name is Kevin moats and he's 58 years old. And the reason that he's on this call today is Kevin was recently suspended from competition by the World Triathlon Corporation as a result of a positive test for testosterone. And today we're going to talk to Kevin about what exactly happened here. And of course, this is coming at the same time as the controversial Lance Armstrong doping scandal. And I also happen to know for a fact that many of the listeners of this podcast actually use bioidentical hormone replacement therapy or therapeutic testosterone for medical reasons. And this is very relevant if you fall into that category of someone who is perhaps trying to manage a medical condition with hormones or even with supplements or other materials. And we're going to get into all this with Kevin. Kevin, thank you for coming on the call today.

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

So let's jump right in. What exactly happened here? Did somebody show up at your house to test you or was it like after a race that you got pulled aside? Or how exactly do you get tested when you're an age group and you're not a professional doing one of these events?

Well, wtc, which is the owner of Ironman, is the only private organization that does drug testing for athletes. Typically, it's part of a, it's a governing body. It's like USADA or usap. But because there's no formal test, let's put this way, no governing body test for Ironman because it's not an Olympic event, WTC has created its own sort of protocol, testing protocol, etc. So anyway, and you're, you're, you're basically eligible for testing between when you qualify for Kona and when you actually race Kona.

So there's an out, it's for people who like, qualify for Ironman World Championships in Kona all of a sudden become eligible to get tested.

Right? And it's at that point when you, when you qualify and sign the sheet that says, you know, you're going to Kona, you agree to be part of a designated testing pool. And that's my understanding they now have the same rules for the 70.3. So for instance, I qualified in November in Florida. So I was basically a part of the testing pool for 11 months. So anyway, so I was tested just before Ironman 2010, and again, it was the first time I'd been tested, so it was a little bit of a strange experience. The, you know, I got a. Somebody called at the gate and all of a sudden three people with little rollerboards come in and they.

To your house?

Yes, to my house. And you know, one is a lead tester and then there's like a nurse or two nurses and they say, we're here to test. You know, they show you that you sign the sheet that said that you're subject to this testing and then you have to basically pee in a cup. And I think the. Anyway, so. And they have, they go into. A person goes into the bathroom with you to make sure you're peeing in the cup. And you know, so that's a little bit intimidating. And then they, they draw your blood too and they take, you know, four to six vials, which, you know, just before a race. You really don't want to take all that blood out of you, but whatever. So, yeah, so I tested I think two before the race and then that's January. I was tested again. 2011. This time I think it was, you know, they do have a competition testing and Kona is sort of a prime location in the winter in the sense that, you know, the pros have to tell, they have to notify WTC where they are at all times. And so you get, you know, like a case with training camp. So all of a sudden There may be 10 professional triathletes in Kona at one time. And so they come out, make spend, you know, four days testing a bunch of people. And I'm at that point, I'm one of the few age groupers that's already pre qualified for Kona and living on the island. So I sort of get tapped.

But anyway, so I tested over there in Hawaii. So you got tested again over there?

Right, I got tested then, same procedure. And then I got tested again in January 2012. And that was the, you know, so I was texted end of January. I didn't hear anything. Then all of a sudden in 1st of April, I received an email notification that there had been a, what they call it, an adverse analytic, you know, result. And you know, basically.

So they call you or they write you a letter.

They just sent me an email. Okay, it was a letter by email.

Okay.

And you know which one. I'm like, wow. And so I retained an attorney to sort of help me through the process. Fellow named Howard Jacobs, who's experienced in this whole doping.

He's a, he's kind of a big name attorney. Hasn't he worked with some pros on this?

Yeah, yeah. And you know, you, you Want somebody that understands this. You couldn't just, you know, ask your friend that's an attorney to say, hey, represent me on this. Because it's just, you know, I spent the last six months, you know, sort of getting an education. So it is a very complex area.

It's not like getting out of a parking ticket or something like that.

Right. So, you know, they, they tell me, you know, they're going to test the B sample. So they went ahead and tested the bee sample. Oh, one thing too, that. And again, I didn't really realize this because, you know, let me back up and explain why I tested positive about six, seven years ago when I turned, got into my early 50s, I was really suffering, you know, almost sort of chronic fatigue and depression. And you know, just my whole system just seemed to be, you know, shutting down. And so I went to see an endocrinologist because I thought, you know, is this age or is this the fact that, you know, I've been, you know, ironman is a hobby for me. But you know, I've been, been doing the sport and marathons, etcetera, all my life. And was I perhaps suffering from a depressed endocrine system? I mean, it's, it's, it's a common amongst, you know, the top pros that are training. It's just an incredible level and they, after about three, four years, they get fried. So I was a little concerned that maybe I had, had really done my adrenal system. And so I went to this endocrinologist and he looked at all the values, my cortisol levels and thyroid and testosterone and whatever. And he came back to me and he said, well, you definitely have a low thyroid. You have, you definitely, you know, you have dangerously low testosterone levels.

And then also you have the thyroid as well. Right, right, right.

You know, what causes what. And then also that I actually had elevated estrogen, which, you know, that's a function more as you get older, your estrogen levels go up. I mean, that's why we get man boobs and stuff like that. But anyway, so he said, and what he meant by dangerously low, again, this is, you know, I'm not a medical expert, but my understanding is, you know, sort of a healthy person in their 20s and 30s, you know, their testosterone levels are, you know, maybe in the 500 to 1,000 level or, you know, 800 to 1,000 or whatever. My levels were somewhere around 75 to 100. And what my, what my doctor explained to me was that really to be healthy you need to be around 400. Okay. And so anyway, he put me on a human replacement therapy regime. He gave me thyroid, which I would take once a day. He gave me. Initially he was sort of doing. It was like an injectable testosterone, but I didn't feel comfortable with that. So we went to just gel and I would put a, you know, modest amount of gel on my arm. Testosterone cream on a daily basis.

And you gotta be careful with that stuff. Right. I mean, I read the book Doper Next Door by Andrew Tillen where he goes into how he had to keep that, the gel and lotion away from his kids. And, you know, it's. It's.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, the other thing, it's just, you know, probably the injectable would be more scientific because the gel, you know, it's hard to get the dose exactly right and then how much gets absorbed and that. So, you know, I would. I would. About every six months I would see my doctor and we'd look at the levels and, you know, sometimes I would be low, sometimes I'd be a little high. Our target was around 400. And then there's also. There's two pieces. There's like total testosterone and then there's free testosterone. And my doctor kept telling me that the free testosterone was the more important value because that's what is readily available to help. That's the body. Yeah, right.

You didn't just go to your doctor one time and walk out. No, no.

I've been under his care throughout the whole time. You know, this was not. I got on the Internet and I got some testosterone. No, no, no. This was. And the other aspect of it too, which he sort of zeroed in on, and I hadn't really. You know, we all think we're going to live forever, etc. But, you know, my grandfather died when he was 35, and my uncle died at 55, and my brother, subsequent to this whole thing, died in 2007 at 55. So there was a history of heart dis. Disease. And that's why he was sort of saying that I had dangerously low levels, because he thinks that actually testosterone supplementation is very important for healthy heart. It keeps the inflammation down. It does all sorts of things. If there's a propensity for heart disease, it's. It's even more important.

Back in 2010 and 2011, there was a. There was a bunch of news about that. Like on. I remember Reuters ran a story on it, I think WebMD too, on how low testosterone can raise heart disease risk, or low testosterone is linked to heart disease. So it's interesting. Okay, sorry to interrupt.

So anyway, and you know, the whole thing, you know. Yes. You know, when they started the whole, when WTC started the whole testing thing, it was like, you know, yes, testosterone is a banned substance. But, you know, I was thinking in my mind I'm taking levels to get me to sort of a healthy level. I'm not, you know, super, you know, I'm not using an anabolic steroid which is solely for the purpose of performance enhancement. You know, it's not, you know, like spinal or what, you know, whatever the sprinters use. You know, I wasn't using epo. I wasn't, I wasn't using a performance enhancing product, though. You know, testosterone is a sort of iffy. What's the right level? I mean, to me, it was not for performance enhancing reasons. It was just to get to normal values.

So did you mean when you started on all this stuff, did you start feeling better? I mean, was it fixing?

Yeah, I definitely felt, you know, and I felt like I had more energy, etc. So is that performance enhancing? Because I feel better and I can train better. You know, it's sort of a interesting aside was, you know, after I, you know, got the notice letter in April, you know, I totally, I said, well, you know, let's, let's let this thing sort itself out. So I went off all hormonal therapy. I mean, I still took the thyroid, but I did a race, it was, you know, in early August, the same race that I'd done the previous year. And so I had not been on any synthetic testosterone for what, four or five months. And interesting enough, my time was exactly the same. I mean, you know, I know it's not an empirical study, but, but it's just, you know, it's having more energy, et cetera, because it's not like, oh, you take testosterone, you're going to suddenly run 2 minutes per minute faster per mile. I mean, it's just, it's a quality of life, it's a health issue. It's not this.

It was more about like being able to get out of bed in the morning and feel the way that you were supposed to, rather than being able to churn out 20 extra watts on the bike or something like that.

Dr. Right, exactly.

When they tested you, to my understanding, they don't actually test youryour testosterone levels as much as a ratio.

Right, right. And that's, you know, again, because, again, as I've learned. So you're right, absolutely. I thought because my levels were at a normal level that I was gonna be fine. You know, obviously I was mistaken because they don't look at your levels at any at all, ever. What they do do, they have an initial screen, which is it looks at your testosterone level and it looks at what's called epi testosterone. And my understanding is that basically it should be a one to one ratio, where for every molecule of testosterone, you have one molecule of epi. So if you're doing a synthetic testosterone, what ends up happening is, I guess it elevates your testosterone level, but your EPI stays the same. So then they're looking at the ratio if you're out of whack. For instance, Landis, the initial test that snared him was he had an epi. I mean, he had what's called a te ratio of 11 to 1. The threshold is 4 to 1, and they used to be 8 to 1, and then they dropped it to 4 to 1. My test came up at 4.2 to 1, so I was barely over, but I was over. And what happened is being over is not in itself a doping offense. All that does is say, okay, we're going to go to the next level, which is a much more expensive test, which is called the carbon isotope testing for testosterone. And the way that works is my understanding is all of the bioidentical testosterone is not exactly bioidentical. The difference is like one atom. And synthetic testosterone is all plant based, and natural testosterone is animal based or whatever we are. And so if there's one atom off and this isotope testing can determine that, they say, oh, exogenous testosterone, big red flag doping offense. And it doesn't matter. You can have one molecule of exogenous testosterone, and that's a doping offense. And so that's, in my case, they said, oh, you've got exogenous testosterone, blah, blah, blah. And we're, we're, you know, basically, we're suspending you for two years. End of discussion. You know, that's it. And so that's where, you know, it's like, hey, wait a minute, guys. You know, look at your own rules and just give you a little one.

To ask you about because.

Right.

So, you know, to my knowledge, they've got this thing called the therapeutic use exemption, or the tue. It's basically your doctor signed some form that says, yeah, this guy is on testosterone for a medical condition that I, that I diagnosed. So I know based off what I read in the news or what, what I perceive that you didn't have one of those And I was basically kind of curious, like, what, what went on there between you and your doc and the WTC when it came to that.

Right. Well, you know, first of all, first of all, again, I was a little naive because it was sort of like, okay, it's a medical condition, it's been prescribed by a doctor. You know, my first thought was, you know, that should be it. I mean, you know, I can show that it was, you know, but then as you, you get in and you read the very, the specifics of the wtc, and then, you know, you go back to the form that I signed, Pick Ironman, Florida, and I get into looking at the whole thing. Well, the way it works is, again, a little bit of background. So you had professionals, they're going to start testing. They have all these rules related to professionals and professionals, you know, you may be talking 100, 200 athletes, they've got to report their whereabouts. They have to be available one time a day. You know, between such and such and such a time for testing. You know, there's very strict requirements. You know, if you're using a band substance, you've got to have a TUE or you're out of here. You know, it's very, very straightforward. And then they said, oh, we got to cobble something together for age groupers, because that's different. I mean, if you think they're 1500 athletes going to Kona, so that's a pool of 1500, and then you add 70.3 on top of that, you got 3000 people going to that world championship. All of a sudden you have 4,500 people. So, you know, maybe the requirements for pros should not be. I mean, age group requirements should be a little bit different. So they drafted, they made some changes specifically for age groupers. And so anyway, so you get back to this, you know, TUE therapeutic use exemption. Okay, do I need to get one or not? So you go to, you look at the document, the main body, it says, you know, tue required.

What document?

Like some, something on the wt, the wtc, you know, sort of like when you sign, you know, that form, it says, you know, you go to their website and there's like the main body of sort of anti doping and this and that. And, you know, it talks about therapeutic use exemptions. You need to obtain one, you know, blah, blah, blah. But the thing about it is it tells you you need to get one, and then it references you to another site where it tells you the whole procedures about how to get one. And you Go to that page and it has this whole thing, know your category, and I'm sure you can see it in the decision. And there it specifically says, age groupers, no TUES required. Okay. And then it goes further on and it says, for an age group athlete that has a doping, basically, who test positive for a banned substance shall not be deemed to be a doping offense. If you know, you could show the following, that is for a medical condition, non performance enhancing, you make yourself available for any additional testing that WTC may want to do.

Okay, so you're saying is basically that it seems to indicate that you didn't need a therapeutic use exemption as long as you could show retroactively.

Right. And then after that, then after that first event, so to speak, if you then wanted to continue to use the quote unquote, banned substance, you would then need to get a tue. But in the first instance, if you could show it was for medical conditions and it was non performance enhancing, you did not need one, and it would deem not to be a doping offense. And that's very, very specific language. You know, it's there. You know, that's what I, you know, that's basically what I hung my hat on. And then the other aspect of it just, again, why I think it makes perfect sense is what I think they did was they took the language that they use for the ncaa. I mean, there you have thousands and thousands of college athletes, and if they basically said all you guys have got to get tue, regardless, you know, it would just swamp the system because, you know, if you use an inhaler, you have to get a tue. If your doctor, if you have plantar fasciitis and your doctor injects cortisone into you, you've got to get a tuen. You know, it's like I had surgery and the doctor did some PRP therapy on me. You know, I would have had to get a tue. I mean, it just. If there's no. If there's no mechanism for sort of saying, hey, wait a minute, let's look at this and see, you know, whether, you know, you have to get a TUE or not, as opposed to just carte blanche saying, you got to get a tue, you know, that's fine if you're a pro and if you're making a living, you should know better. You should do, you know. But if you're an age grouper and this is a hobby, and just like age groupers don't have to stay where they are every day, and if their plans change, send an email to somebody saying, okay, I'm going to be in Charlotte today instead of here. Could you imagine 4,500 athletes having to inform WTC as to their whereabouts at all times? I mean, it was unworkable, just like requiring 4,500 athletes to all get TUEs anytime they ingest a banned substance.

So what happened in the trial? I mean, obviously somebody, somebody interpreted this differently than you.

Well, let me explain, let me explain what happened. You know, you know, so we went, Howard went to WTC and said, you know, this is ridiculous. You want to ban this fellow for two years. He followed your direction. I mean, you have here the leeway. It says the first offense shall not be deemed to be a doping offense. If you can prove it's a medical edition, it's non performance enhancing. We have this letter from the doctor that says he's been under his care for five, six years. They're regular labs showing the reason for it. We've got prescription history showing where basically this testosterone came from. Again, it was all part of the therapy. But WTC didn't want to hear from it. In fact, what they did was, even though the document was, I thought, pretty clear, they started saying, oh, well, you know, you're a member of USAT and by virtue of being a member of usat, regardless of what our rules say, you needed to comply with USAT rules. And w, you know, and so they made this sort of USAP for people.

Listening in and going, no, that's a USA Triathlon.

Right, USA Triathlon. I'm sorry, yeah, USA Triathlon as being a member of US A triathlon. They have different, you know, they don't have this, all this language about, you know, you don't know, TUE required. And they said, you know, and they said in their documents, it said they have this sort of advisory, it says, you know, regardless of what our requirements are, you may want to check with your governing body to see if there might be more stringent requirements. It didn't say you're subject to the more stringent requirements. It was really meant to say, like, just because you don't need a TUE to compete in Ironman, if you compete in the National Olympic distance, you know, for USA Triathlon or Xterra, they may have different requirements and so you need to comply with their requirements. But it didn't say, you know, specifically those requirements apply here. But they kept trying to say, well, you were USA Triathlon member and therefore you needed to get a TUE regardless of what Our rules say, and that's not what it said. So anyway, you know, we say, okay, we need, the only recourse, of course you have is arbitration. You know, you can, you can argue with WTC until the cows come in. But you know, it's their rates, it's their rules. They could be, if they elected interpret the rules not the way they're drafted, then that's, you know, that's their right. So in August it was, we had a, all day hearing, you know, the panel was very good. I mean it was, I absolutely had no, you know, no issues. I mean there were three very competent, experienced attorneys slash arbitrators. You know, they were very savvy and you know, sports, sports aspect in the sports arena. And you know, we spent 12 hours and it was amazing how. And you know, Howard argued very simply, you know, I did what? Yeah, Howard Jacobs basically said, you know, this is really a simple case, you know, no TUE required. That's what the document says, you know, end of story in effect. And they, you know, they threw everything at it. They said, well yes, it says that, but you know, over here it says a TUE is required. And then you know, he was a member of USA Triathlon, he should have gotten one there, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I kept trying, I kept saying, wait a minute, there's no question that in your document in numerous places it says TUE required. But then it also says for the specifics of the actual TUE application, go to this location, you go to that location and it very specifically says you don't need one. You know, and so if it's a medical condition and it's prescribed, you know, blah blah, blah. And you know, where, if you look at where the panel finally came down, you know, they, you know, they specifically said they thought that my interpretation was reasonable and persuasive. But where, and that's why they said there was no significant fault. And I didn't, you know, now I understand the nuance. There's no fault and then there's no significant fault. The reason they found some level of fault with mere negligence. They said, well, you know, and this is where the WTC attorney hammered me. He said, well, you know, you had this, yes, you had these contradictory provisions. Why didn't you just call WTC and ask them is a TUE required? And you know, I said I didn't. To me it was not contradictory. It was, it made perfect sense. You had TUE required. Then you went to the specifics and you know, it's like A subset. And there it said oh by the way, if you're an age grouper it's not required, you know, end of story, that's it. And they said well you know, you should have tried to get clarification either from USA Triathlon or you know, so they, you know how attorneys, they're just throwing whatever they can out there and in a little bit of it stuck, so to speak. So you know they, the panel decided, you know, they basically said, you know, they sanctioned me but they tried to water it down as best they could because you know, wtc, you know, non negotiable two year ban. So what they did was they cut it in half and then they said, oh by the way, the test was back in January, here we are in September, you know, we're basically going to give you a one year suspension but it's going to be starting from the test date, not from the notice date, not from the hearing date, but from the, on the test date. So you know it's basically, it's a three month suspension.

So what did the arbitration panel think about what you know, you and Howard were saying were kind of discrepancies the, the WTC's website text?

Well they, they agreed, they, they basically said there are two aspects they agreed with and they, and you'll see in the finding they say, you know, wtc, you got to clean up your, you got to clean up your language. Because the other thing when they kept trying to sort of say well I was subject to USA Triathlon, you know, they kept saying well wait a minute, if you read, why didn't you say, you know, regardless of the WTC requirements, you're subject to, you know, you're subject to your own government bodies. You know, you don't say that, you just give an advisory check with your governing body. And so they, you know, that's why they tried to reduce the quote, unquote the sentence as much as possible. And again if you read through the decision you'll see it's highly critical of wtc. But you know, my feeling is I don't think there was anything wrong with the way the documents were drafted. I think that it works in the sense that if you have a positive test for a banned substance and you can show it with a medical condition and it's not performance enhancing, you basically should have another shot. You know, you shouldn't, not everybody should have to go get a TUE because they're using a banned substance. I mean it would just be a bureaucratic nightmare. Go ahead well, based on this case, WTC has changed their language and they've.

Taken away if because of kind of what seems like some messiness in your case, if things have changed.

Yes, it has and I think to the detriment of age groupers and also to the detriment of usada because you know, the earlier language it was somewhat unclear as to who you were supposed to get a TUE from. Now they've clearly shifted that over to USA Triathlon and usada. So it basically says, you know, you've got to get a TUE from your governing body and so it sort of covers them now in the future they can say, oh, you didn't get a tue. And they've also changed their language saying that basically a violation of the, your governing body's rules shall be deemed to be a violation of WTC rules. So they closely linked the two and they've shifted the entire burden of reviewing any tue, of issuing any TUE before that was on WTC side. Now they've shifted totally. So if you were, you know, a USA Triathlete, you've got to go through, you know, deal with USADA and, and USA Triathlon and if you don't, you know, you're banned for two years.

So if somebody is listening in and their doctor has given them testosterone lotions or injections or something like that, they need to go to USA Triathlon and file a therapeutic use exemption with USA Triathlon if they're a triathlete.

Right, but the other aspect of this, and again I, you know, I did not know the strictness of the TUE process. You can go to the USADA site and you can download sort of the doctor's form to file for a tue. And with respect to testosterone, and again I, you know, you know, again you could say there was some negligence on my part because I had not done this until we got into the whole trial and everything thing. But it's impossible to meet. Basically for age. If you have, it doesn't say, gee, if your levels are below X, then you have to basically produce no testosterone. You would say, gee, if health being healthy is 400 to 500 and my levels are 100, I should be entitled. But it says, well, for a 58 year old man, 100 is really not so bad. So yes, it's not healthy in the general population, but vis a vis a 58 year old man, we're not going to give it to you.

Now what about the USA Triathlon therapeutic expense exemption form? Same thing or.

Well, it's now, USADA has now become the focal point. Obtaining a tue now falls totally with usada.

I see, I see. Okay.

And you know, you know that you might want to download that because if you look at it.

Yeah, I'll put a link to it in the show notes too for people.

Yeah, you should, because it's a very, it's a very difficult test to meet. You know, if you look at, I mean, you know, my thought would be if it said, okay, if your levels are below X and you know, you know that you, your doctor has to test you like two times a week apart just, you know, to get a sort of a base level. And you know, if it's, you know, if they had something like, if it's below a certain level, then, you know, basically you're eligible. But no, I think I recall looking at it. I think it specifically excludes supplemental testosterone for anti aging purposes.

So what are you going to do? I mean, like, are you going to keep using the testosterone that your endocrinologist gave you or. I mean, do you have to kind of make a decision now between. Is this kind of like one of those deals where you got to choose between feeling good and doing triathlons at this point?

Yeah, I mean, you're right. It's, you know, you really, you sort of, you know, I can train all day and I can continue to use, you know, the testosterone, but if I want to race. No, you can't. You know, at my age, yes, it'll be a detriment. But you know, where I think it's huge issue is, you know, when you're in your 60s or your 70s or your 80s and you know, being forced to make that decision. If I want to compete in Ironman races, you know, I can't use any supplemental testosterone, even if it's just to take my levels to norm, to quote unquote healthy levels. It's almost like, you know, you're putting this choice, health versus competition, you know.

Yeah, I mean, I know for you it's kind of an important, important consideration. I mean, you're not only an impressive looking guy. I'll try and put a link, a photo of Kevin in the show notes for those of you listening.

Hey, I assure you that's not because I've been using testosterone. I mean, I've had, you know. You know, it's so funny because everybody thinks, oh, you're skinny or you're lean, you know, you must be on something. It's like I've been that way all my life. I mean, I don't take that much credit for it. I sort of, as I tell people, it's your parents, not you.

And you're also the Hawaii. And yeah, you're the course records for Hawaii Ironman or what, the 55-59s?

Yeah, well, no, not 55-59s. It's the 50 to 54.

Gotcha. So anyway, yeah, I know I just.

Throw a little comment about Kona itself is, you know, the thing about Kona is really not the competition, it's the course. I mean, you know, it's you against the course. If you focus on your competition, you're going to get beat every time. You know, you just have to go out there and race the course. I mean, you know, I had a one, I had the sanction against me and I also of course had. I had a torn Achilles that's sort of gradually getting better. But I'm glad I wasn't in Kona this year. It was brutal.

Yeah, I was out there and there were. There are definitely slower times in a lot of categories. So just a couple other quick questions for you. What about using things that aren't testosterone, that aren't injections, that aren't creams, that are kind of like herbal formulas like Tribulus for testosterone or D aspartic acid or a lot of these supplements that aren't necessarily synthetic testosterone? Is that something that they test for or something that is illegal or have you looked into that at all?

I have not looked into it. I mean, you know, there's a very specific.

The reason I ask is I know there's a lot of people out there using like, you know, Optimail and Herbamail, you know, everything else under the sun.

Yeah. I mean, does that stop. I mean, is there, let's put it this way, is there scientific evidence that it actually does boost testosterone levels? I mean, to me, a lot of that strikes me as sort of, you know, fish oil type snake oil. You know, I mean, there's no question that, you know, you use synthetic testosterone. You know, your values are 100 and you know, over two to three week period your values will rise up to, you know, three or 400. And you know, using this other. Are there real significant, you know, statistically significant increases? I mean, certainly I would consider that. But again, it's, you know, it's unfortunate, you know, there isn't some threshold or some leeway with respect to testosterone use. But I can also understand the other argument is sort of once you open that door, you know, it's subject to abuse. I mean, you know, and you know, people can hyperdose that stuff. And now the other, the other question.

I wanted to ask you was Lance Armstrong. Obviously they're looking at him for the alleged use of steroids and the blood booster, EPO and blood transfusions. For you as an age grouper, when they come in and they test your blood and your urine, are they just looking at testosterone or do they have this full on panel where they're looking at a lot of this stuff, for example, that has been implicated in the Lance Armstrong doping scandal?

Well, I assume they're looking for. Well, actually, when I got the results back, you know, it said basically, I think, positive for exogenous testosterone and it said negative for epo. So they definitely are looking for EPO.

And probably, I would imagine, maybe looking at steroids and possibly blood transfusions as well.

Yeah, but you know, I get the feeling that at least for the age groupers, you know, there's sort of like preliminary screening. I think they're using the urine for like an EPO and you know, the T ratio because that's fairly inexpensive. I understand. And then if they find something, then they start looking at the blood and, you know, again, I almost feel like, you know, one thing Howard and I should have argued early on, you know, before we went to arbitration, go to WTC and say, hey, look, you've got my blood. Look at my testosterone levels and you'll see that they're consistent with a hormone replacement therapy, not as a performance enhancing level. I don't know how extensive the initial screen is, but I'm sure that they get a positive. Well, but see, in my case, they never looked at blood. I mean, they had six vials of my blood. They never looked at that. They just totally focused on the urine. But yeah, I would think, you know, there, I would think EPO is the big thing they're looking for because clearly for an endurance event, EPO would be the most endurance. And then the blood, the blood transfusions, you know, I mean, I think, I'm sure we've all. You've read Tyler Hamilton's book as well. And my understanding is what they're now doing, the level of sophistication is even if they don't, you know, supposedly the guys were injecting EPO directly into their veins, you know, and all of that. But now what they do is they analyze somebody's blood to see the percentage of sort of fresh blood cells. And if they, even if they don't find epo, they say, oh, well, you know, your percentage of new blood versus old is, you know, X percent. And that's basically a marker for, you know, for EPO use. I don't know if that also matters for transfusions. If it works, you know, if then you get, I don't know. But yeah, they certainly, they certainly gather enough and they, and you know, it's sort of subcontracted out. It's, I forget who the tech there. You know, it's like the results go to some lab in Salt Lake City, Adam AD anti doping AM or something like that. So probably whatever. So, yeah, they're looking at all this stuff.

Well, I'm sure that we have some listeners who are also somewhat knowledgeable on these issues. And if you're listening in and you've got questions, you've got comments, you've got feedback, if you want to share your thoughts about age group testing, about doping and triathlon or other sports, or about Kevin Moats story in particular, go to the Show Notes for this episode. They'll be up over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com I'll make sure that I put a link to the therapeutic use exemption form from USADA and also a couple of other pretty interesting resources in the same category. There was a very interesting interview with Victor Conte on the Joe Rogan show that some of you may want to listen into. And last year, my friend Roman Mica over at Every Man Try interviewed the author of Don't Burn Next Door, Andrew Tillen, and also put a link that in there to a lot of the things that people use these days for kind of natural testosterone enhancement and some of the idea behind those things as well. So, Kevin, you've been very generous with your time today, and I wanted to thank you for coming on the call.

Well, I appreciate for, you know, being able to, how should we say, air my side of the story because again, you know, people just see a doping offense and, you know, assume I'm a doper, et cetera. And they don't, they don't actually read the decision to see that. Basically, the panel found no significant guilt on my part or fault on my part. They don't see that there was confusion in the rules and, you know, all of that. But and also that the panel greatly reduced my sanction. So I, so I definitely appreciate you allowing me to speak out. Thank you, Ben.

Thanks for coming on, Kevin. And until next time, folks, this is Kevin And Ben from BenGreenfieldFitness.com signing out.