BenGreenfield-Music.mp3

Foreign. Hey, it's Ben Greenfield. Welcome to today's special episode. In just a couple days, the usual episode with Brock and myself will be released. But in the meantime, today you're going to get a special interview with abel James from fatburningman.com and Abel and I are going to talk about music and how it affects your mood and your performance. Just this Morning over at BenGreenfieldFitness.com, i published a post that goes along with this audio episode and that really delves into a bunch of resources for you on the way that workout music can affect your performance and how music in general and even sounds can affect not just your performance, but also your mood, your sleep, your focus, and all sorts of other physical variables. The other thing that I wanted to mention to you is that towards the end of this podcast, and actually as the intro to the beginning of this podcast, I'm playing some special music by a friend of mine named Johnny K. And I'll be sure to link to more of Johnny's music in the show. Notes to this episode. The last thing that I want is free from you, and what I want to hear from you is what your favorite workout songs and your favorite type of workout music actually is. I tell you what mine is. Over on Today's post@BenGreenfieldFitness.com you might laugh, but I give you a free link to it anyways, so check that out. And let's jump right into today's podcast interview with Abel James. Hey folks, it's Ben Greenfield. Kind of geeking out on sound right now and how sound and how music can improve human performance. And I've got a guy on the call today who happens to be a musician, but also somebody who performs and is into fitness and fat loss himself. I've got Abel James on the call today, and Abel actually has a podcast on itunes called the Fat Burning man show and a website over@fatburningman.com and besides being a fat loss coach and a health crusader, and he is a musician and he lives in Austin, Texas, which is a great area for being a musician from what I understand. And he also wrote a book called the Musical Brain, which I've had the pleasure of reading. And it's kind of a book that explores biology and kind of how musical training and musical experience affect the brain. And we'll talk a little bit about music today, but we'll also get into sound and everything else. So Abel, thanks for coming on the call.

Hey, you got it. Thanks so much for having me Ben.

So a lot of places that we can start. But, you know, I guess the basic overview, because I think a lot of people may not really understand about, you know, how physiology and biology is affected by sounds.

Yeah.

Can. Can you kind of lay out how sounds and frequencies actually affect our physiology?

Sure. So this is kind of a complex question, because I think the way that most people will probably read into that is they'll go straight to music. But actually, human physiology is affected by a lot more than just music. Everything from random sounds and noise to music itself, which is actually a close corollary to language. And, Ben, you probably already know that. But as far as physiology goes, there's a really interesting thing that happens when we hear a tone or a rhythm. And this has been in tons and tons, historically, tons and tons of examples of this. For example, there's war and chanting, and also drums and drum beats. And then everything kind of across the board, like an airplane going over. You can also have a distinct effect on your physiology. Synchronicity is a big piece of that, and we can kind of get into the specifics later.

Okay, cool. So, you know, when you say something like that, like an airplane going overhead affecting your physiology. You know, let's say I'm. I'm sitting in my office or I'm out on a run or a bike ride or at the gym, and I hear a noise or a frequency like that, what exactly happens? I mean, are we talking about something that's occurring on, like a. Like a cellular level, or is this more of just kind of like hearing something and having a mental reaction to it?

So if you take a step back and you just imagine yourself sitting somewhere, and all of a sudden there's like a helicopter or a plane that goes overhead, and you're not expecting it. Your heartbeat, you're suddenly aroused. Right? Your heartbeat increases, your heart rate increases, and you kind of look around and you feel this distinct feeling of being almost surprised. Right. And so that can kind of happen with any type of sound that's unexpected. Now, you can use that also as a tool to heighten arousal. And we could talk about this a little bit later for, like, performance enhancement purposes.

Okay, gotcha. So what about, you know, in terms of sounds and frequencies? We've got that on one end of the spectrum, but then, you know, music, which you mentioned, in terms of, like, chanting and beats and stuff like that. I had someone who I used to coach who listens to a lot of really heavy death metal when.

Yeah.

When she was in particular running. And it seemed like, she was always injured. So I'm curious and, you know, maybe that's just like complete, complete fabrication on my part in terms of me imagining that that might affect her. But, you know, in your opinion, you know, having written this book about how music kind of affects biology, do you think that, that something like that could be said for music or for, like, you know, the Mozart effect or something like that? And if so, how do you kind of know what music is good and what music is bad when it comes down to choosing, you know, how music is going to affect your physiology?

Okay, so that's an interesting question. First of all, the Mozart effect is something that was hyped up quite a bit a few years ago, and research really doesn't support it. I believe originally it was some sort of paper folding task. And when the media got ahold of that, you know, they increased how rapidly they were able to fold the paper. And so they deduced that, and the media kind of sensationalized that this was some sort of cognitive performance enhancement. And so that hasn't really been proven. But what music does do, and I kind of alluded to this earlier, is that it can heighten arousal, and it can also, in terms of your physiology, it can increase your heart rate, lower your heart rate, make you feel a little bit more psyched up or psyched down. And so I would imagine when you were talking about the person that you coached who was listening to death metal, that reminds me, when I was doing private sector consulting, when I was right out of college, I was paying off my loans, and sometimes I would just need to crank out work really, really quickly. And I would put on Dragon Force, which has just this churning rhythm and these epic melodies and these ridiculous guitar solos. But mostly it has this kind of wall of sound that there's a beat to it that gets your heart racing. And so I found that when I put that on, I could. And I actually measured this, because I measure everything like a freak. But, yeah, it enabled me to get more things done more quickly. And so that's been proven across the board also in terms of athletic performance as well. And you may have noticed that Michael Phelps, for example, he wears earphones and is usually listening to music right before his Olympics starts. And there's a very specific reason for that. I would assume that it works for him. He may or may not know why. And to be perfectly honest, a lot of people don't really know why. But what we do know is that there are measurable effects that tend to improve performance, but that's not always the case. There are also specific effects that can decrease performance in certain cases.

There's a lot of stuff out there these days if you kind of like go on the Internet and you know, look at CDs or even downloadable MP3s of tunes as well as sounds and frequencies that promise to improve your performance or kind of psych you up for an event, you know, compared to music, do you think that there's even a way that something like that, you know, like just listening to not music as much as just like, you know, these sounds or, you know, I guess it's almost like a, you know, like a hum. Have you ever heard of something like that actually affecting someone in terms of improving physical or mental performance?

Yeah, you know, that can work. It's a little bit of an issue though of getting caught up in the hype of that too. Because the effects that we're talking about, it's not like if you run a 10 minute mile or something, you're not going to be running a five minute mile all of a sudden when you listen to this stuff. But when you do, think of, you go and get a massage or something like that, or elevator music. This stuff is designed to, to make you more relaxed and it definitely does that. But like I said, the effects aren't ridiculously pronounced. So I wouldn't get too caught up in buying something that's a product that isn't music because music can do it in most cases just as well as long as you select the right kind. And that's actually pretty easy to do.

So have you used or do you kind of have examples of how the concept of music can be used to enhance like your health for example, or something a little bit more deep than being able to focus a little bit better or say run a little bit faster?

In terms of health, it's been shown to reduce stress. But if you're listening to the right music, specific types of music, do specific things. So people who listen to music, and there have been a few studies that have talked about this, that is relaxing, that can have a positive effect on their mood and emotional state. And that's something that probably everyone has experienced at some point, whether they knew it or not, right? And like I said before, that's the reason that this music is piped into shopping malls and elevators and all these other places, because research shows that muzak and things like that works or at least has a very specific effect. Now in terms of increasing health, there's not a whole lot of research out there that proves A targeted benefit of that. Although music therapy is a field that's expanding and getting a lot of attention right now, and I think it definitely does hold some clout if you have someone who is very experienced in music therapy and psychology and music in general, who comes to someone who wants to achieve a heightened state of arousal or a decreased level of stress or something like that, and they know how to use music in a targeted way, I think that definitely can be beneficial. But, I mean, if you're buying these CDs for like $50 a pop that are supposed to make your cat sleep better at night or something like that, I don't think that that's completely necessary now.

You know, brain hacking seems like it's kind of a sexy topic these days. Folks hooking themselves up and doing, you know, electrical stimulation on their cranium and, you know, using any number of electric devices or technology to improve mental performance. Now, as far as music, specifically, like learning music or playing a musical instrument, how does that compare to things like this? I mean, can that actually make you smarter? And if so, how does it kind of do that?

I talk about this in my book a bit, and I answer a few different questions, which is, where did music come from? It doesn't really make sense as an adaptive mechanism. So that's the first question that I talk about, and the second one is one you just alluded to, and that's, how is the brain of the musician distinct from that of the non musician? And what we know is that there are differences. There are absolutely differences in the way that the brain of the musician works and processes different bits of information. Now, in terms of improving performance, there have been some studies that have shown that musicians have some increased abilities to do certain things, but most of them are very much related to music. But just from taking a step back from a personal standpoint, I know that a lot of the skills that I used as a musician and learning different instruments and especially reading music can be translated to learning other things. It makes learning languages, for example, a lot easier. And it's interesting, when some people listen to my podcast, for example, they're just like, you're a singer, aren't you? Without knowing that I'm a musician. And I get that feedback all the time. And I think that one of the reasons, and I'm totally hypothesizing right now, but I would imagine one of the reasons for that is because the way that I speak is somewhat musical, because I grew up always playing music, always listening to music, and having because of that you have a deep understanding of melody, of rhythm. And I talk about this in the book as well. Language and music are very, very close, especially when you go back to the evolutionary basis of music and language. They co opt each other's neural pathways and engage the brain in very similar ways, whether you're speaking a sentence or you're playing a musical melody on the guitar or something like that.

Nice. So if we go back into history and look at different cultures and folks who have used music or sound for healing or to enhance performance, whether physical or mental, do you have some examples of cultures or people that have used music successfully to kind of get that breakthrough effect?

Yeah. And that kind of hinges on your definition of what is music. Right. Because it's not all the music that we see today with a drum set and synthesizers and. And have those in the popped. Yeah, exactly. But you can go back and look at, you know, like Zulu warriors with thunderous hypnotic drumming and even, you know, riot police beating their batons while marching. And you go back a few hundred years and you think of the drumming and the fifes that always seemed to accompany marching to the battlefield and all these things are used. I remember in college my football buddies would always warm up in a locker room in the Air Tonight, which is just one of those. If you listen to that or Eye of the Tiger, how could you not get totally psyched up? It just has this effect over you. You don't know why. Even if you don't like the song, it does have an effect. So, yeah, we've been using music pretty much forever. As long as we could speak in some form or another to increase performance, whether we knew it or not.

Yeah. Now there are people out there who just really didn't grow up with music or haven't been exposed to music. Like I grew up. I played violin for 13 years and then switched to guitar when violin was no longer considered cool. And you know, I know that there are some folks who just didn't really grow up with music or maybe want to expand that part of their brain that you talk about in your book is associated with, you know, increased awareness of space and language and some. Some improvements in cognitive performance and things of that nature.

Right.

Where would you recommend somebody kind of start if they. If they want to begin to understand music or to learn music or to use music or even sounds to give themselves a physical advantage or a mental advantage?

I would say the first thing that it takes is practice. There's an argument, and this has been covered by all sorts of. It's kind of a hot topic right now, the difference between or the relationship between talent and experience with something. And so are good musicians innately and genetically gifted in some way, or have they just practiced more? And the answer, in my opinion, is that it's somewhere in between. So if you want to achieve, if you want to be able to really harness the power in music, I would say that you need to be some form of a musician. That doesn't mean that you need to be a virtuoso or anything like that, but it does mean that you need extended practice. When you think of it, think of it in terms of learning a different language, like Spanish or something like that. You're not going to learn how to speak Spanish by just mumbling through it once a week for a few minutes or even a couple of hours. You're not going to learn it that way. It's not really going to have an effect on the way that you think. But if anyone's ever learned a language, they know that. All of a sudden you hit this point where you see an apple and you know the English name for that, and you also just out of nowhere kind of pops into your head the name from that other language. So you're no longer, like, translating apple into another language. You look at the apple and it is that other word, right? And so that's kind of the same thing that happens with music. You need to have dedicated. You need to use it in a dedicated way. And that could mean learning an instrument or learning how to even sing. Like, singing is something that's totally undervalued, I think, these days. And it's definitely fallen out of fashion for most males in this society, which is totally unfortunate. But it used to be even, you know, I go to reunions and the guys who went to school a generation ago, all of them sang. You know, they were all in choir, and it was practically a necessity when they were in school. And now it's just like hardly anyone does it. But even if you can't play an instrument, if you learn how to sing, you learn how to sight read and read music. It can have huge effects on all sorts of different parts of your life. And I think almost all of them, and I'm obviously biased here, but I think almost all of them are beneficial.

Yeah, I've found playing guitar and also working with my kids a little bit on piano, that the amount of resources on an iPhone or even like a Kindle or a desktop, as far as being able to learn how to read music or take a certain instrument and learn it. I mean, the information out there is pretty vast in terms of.

That's a really good point.

Online tutorials. Now, some people may, unless they're big fans of the Voice or American Idol, may not care about the music side of things too much. And I certainly know that another topic that's out there is the whole sleep component and using white noise apps. There's another app, and the name of it escapes me, but it plays chimes and kind of notes and sounds that are supposed to lull you into a deep sleep. Have you ever used anything like that or seen evidence that similar to music, something like that can have a significant effect on brain waves, for example, or deep sleep cycles?

Yeah, totally. Dave Asprey is one guy who was just on my podcast, and he's@Bulletproofexec.com and he's a big biohacker. And I know that he has been hacking his sleep and he's gotten something like five hours of sleep for years on end now because he is a young child, not that I would recommend that, but he uses biohacking and electrical signals to lull himself into a deep sleep. Now, you don't need to use electrodes on your brain to do that necessarily, although it can help in some instances. So if there's anything that helps to lull you to sleep, like relaxing music, I would say definitely use it, and it's proven that it works. White noise is another issue, and it's a really interesting one. I've used it for sure, especially when you're in a noisy environment. I've used the app on my iPhone if I'm traveling, for example, and it's a really noisy hotel, for example, if there's vehicle noise outside or something like that, that's kind of constant and won't let up. If you put on white noise, all of a sudden, those car horns and the screeching of tires and things like that become much less noticeable or can disappear altogether. And so that makes it easier to fall asleep. And while you're sleeping, even if you don't wake up, your sleep patterns can be interrupted by these sorts of things. So it's really important to have the quietest environment possible to do that. So, yeah, white noise can work, or putting on a bit of music. One thing that I do actually is it's a fan, and it's also like a room purifier, but I've been using it so long that it's dirty and it doesn't really work to purify the air. But what it does do is it has. Has this kind of low fan sound. It's just kind of like a whooshing sound. And that tends to cover up the street noise outside. So I keep it on all the time, and that seems to help me.

Yeah, I personally sleep with an eye mask and earplugs and white noise app. And my wife.

Yeah, that's a good way to.

And a pillow over my head. And my wife sleeps with. You know, basically she'll sleep in a completely bright room with her head on the pillow. And we're just complete opposites when it comes to that.

But you look way cooler.

I do look like a real sleep hacker anyways, though. You say in your book that music is good for the brain, heart and soul. And when you use especially like the words brain and heart, I know that there's a good connection between the brain and the heart. You take something like the Heart Math Institute that's done a lot of study, you know, kind of on how your brain waves affect your heart or vice versa. Have you ever seen anything. And I don't remember seeing anything in your book, but in terms of, like, how music may affect heartbeats or heart rhythms or heart rate variability or anything.

Of that nature, definitely the heart rate. And that mostly hinges on how it affects your arousal, kind of like I was talking about before. And so you can use it, for example, before training for competition or something like that, as a stimulant, and that would up your heart rate. Or you could use it also as a sedative to kind of calm down your anxious feelings. So before a speech or before an athletic event, you can pipe this music into your ears and it can regulate your arousal in very distinct ways.

Now, do you personally find that some folks respond differently to certain types of music based on what they were, what they were raised on, or their cultural perspective? Yeah, you know, like, I personally get totally amped up on. On techno like Tiesto and Moby and Paul Oakenfold and things like that before I go and do you know, triathlon is my sport of choice. But do you find that it tends to vary among individuals in terms of the type of music that's optimal?

Yeah, absolutely. There are some similarities, but there's a huge emotional component to music when you. A personal example of this for me is Coldplay. Right. I don't even like this band, but for some reason, when I hear it, when someone plays it in a car or something like that, I just get these good feelings, these memories, because I think when it was played for Me, when I was with someone else or something like that, it triggers these positive associations. And the one that does that, in the most part, is the Garden State soundtrack, which I think is actually a pretty good soundtrack. But, yeah, so when. When you do have these emotional associations with music, it can. It can color your own experience in a different way than someone else who, you know was having Chinese water torture, for example, while listening to Coldplay or something like that. So you can definitely have. There are differences. And I think a good example of that is also when you think about stimulants or sedatives. Drugs work this way. Some people can take a stimulant and pass out, or other people take sedatives and their heart starts racing and they go crazy. And it's something that's just unpredictable. And some people are different than others. But there are definitely similarities in terms of the types of music that tend to psych you up are the ones with the higher rates of beats. And when you think of music, um, your heart and your stride, like if you're running, for example, will try to synchronize with whatever you're listening to. So if you want your stride rate to be like 120aminute or something like that, or not a minute, but if you want your heartbeats to be 120, then if you listen to music with 120 beats per minute, then you can actually start to synchronize. And this has been used by a few different athletes in the past to increase their performance. And that's actually been measured. Yeah. And I can't remember off the top of my head what the improvement is, but I want to say it's like 7 or 8%, because when you do synchronize, and obviously you need to do some planning to make sure that you're listening and synchronizing to the right amount of beats. But when you do, I think it increases performance by like, 8% in what I saw. So that can be a huge improvement. When you're talking about milliseconds off your time, for example.

Yeah. And you're not correlating, like, your foot strike. You're actually listening to music that is correlated to, for example, like, heart rate that you're targeting.

It could be that it could also be your target stride rate. I remember one example. There's this rhythmical pop song called Scatman. And I can't remember the guy's name, but he was an Ethiopian distance runner, and he selected the song because the tempo perfectly matched his target stride rate. And so that's really important for a distance runner when you want to have a steady and efficient cadence.

Nice. Cool. Well, obviously music is a pretty deep field and you kind of geek out in your book. Especially for you musicians out there, I'd recommend that you check out Abel's book in which he talks more about the musical brain and how music affects you neurally and kind of how we're wired up when it comes to music. So also, just while I've got you on the line, Abel, you've got this site. Is it fatburningman.com or thefatburningman?

Yeah, fatburningman.com.

Cool. What exactly are you trying to accomplish with that side? Or what's new over there in the world of Fat Burning Man?

It started off fairly. It wasn't too long ago, it's only about six months old. But I've been writing about health and especially evolutionary health for a long time. And it's really interesting now because I just put this book out on the musical brain. But I actually wrote a lot of the research quite a while back. But I've always been interested in evolutionary biology and also ancestral health. And so these things actually start to cross paths a little bit. And so what I do with fatburningman.com is it started off as a blog, and then I launched a podcast about two months ago now. And I realized pretty quickly that the podcast was getting a lot more traction than just some other blog out there on increasing your performance to some degree. And who needs another health and fitness blog? There's so many. But I think the podcast, it's been totally awesome because people started listening and actually I saw your get fit guy up there in the podcast charts, so it always seems to be pretty close. We're trying to beat out Jillian Michaels on the charts.

Gotta love Jillian. I don't think I've actually ever listened to her podcast, but I've noticed she's always kind of up there on itunes.

Yeah, I beat her in the UK like a couple of weeks ago, but I'm still trying to get I get to number two in the US but I'm still trying to knock her out of her seat. But anyway, yeah, so I mostly talk about issues in evolutionary health, so a lot of the Paleo primal people will all have them on. And it's mostly interview based. But since I geek out so much on biohacking and the brain and things like that, it's not just talking about running barefoot and eating lots of steak, there are lots of other issues that we delve into. It's been a heck of a lot of fun and the support has been awesome.

Cool. Well, for those of you listening in, I'll put a link to Abel's site in the show notes for this podcast episode, and also a link to his book, the Musical Brain, so you can read up a little bit more on that. And if you have your own questions or comments or feedback about music, your own tips to add when it comes to sounds and frequencies and music, then feel free to leave them in the show notes over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com so, Abel, thanks so much for your time today.

Right on. Thanks so much, Ben.

Well, folks, that wraps up today's episode. Be sure to head over to BenGreenfieldFitness.com where, as I promised, I've got a post jam packed with even more information, including a photo of me when I used to personally be in a rock band, a link to a bunch of cool workout music and some extra songs for you, and just a ton of things that you're going to find incredibly helpful if you dig music, sound and how it can affect your body. So check that out. And while you're over there, don't forget to let me know what your favorite type of workout music or your favorite workout song is, and maybe I'll end up creating a little Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast Listener music compilation. All right, have a great week. And this is Ben Greenfield signing out.

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