Ben's New Dietary Protocol, Vegetables Vs. Viruses, Whether Viruses Really Exist & Much More With Dr. Thomas Cowan.

On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast.

I don't think it's blind faith or trust. I think it's appropriate understanding that you don't know as much as what you're hearing.

We know that the virus that's being blamed for the sickness doesn't exist. And therefore the very best thing that we can do right now is just take better care of ourselves.

Fluid of any sick person. You are simply misinformed because that's not how they do it.

My guest on today's show, gosh, he's. He's joined me for quite a few episodes in the past on somewhat, somewhat controversial topics. Sometimes, like, we did a podcast about how the war on cancer has failed and we discussed, like, mistletoe and NAD and deuterium depleted water and melatonin and garrison therapy. I thought it was one of the most informed kinds of, like, alternative medical approaches to cancer podcasts I'd ever done. And then he joined me to talk about why we are all misinformed about the true way that the heart works from almost like a biomechanical standpoint, and how the heart really isn't as much of a pump as we all like to think that it is. We did a whole podcast on vaccinations and whether or not you or your kids should get vaccinated. And this was even before the whole COVID vaccine discussion came up. This was just way back when we were talking about appropriate vaccine schedules for children and what those would actually look like, some of the. Some of the alternatives and thought considerations behind that. And then I think it was the first show that we did. We talked about vegetables and why a plant is like an upside down human and this whole concept of Rudolf Steiner and his approach to medicine and these little known superfood plants. And so if you haven't yet guessed who my podcast guest is, because perhaps you haven't been a longtime podcast listener, you fool. It's Dr. Thomas Cowan and he's a well known alternative medicine doctor and he's an author and he's a speaker with a really, really great common sense, holistic approach to health and wellness. I think I met you, Tom, in person at the Wesley Price conference. Yeah.

Yup. It was a few years ago.

Yeah, we were probably eating like ghee and lard and sauerkraut with Sally Fallon out there. He also co authored a great book with on the Nourishing Traditions Book of Baby and Childcare. Anybody who has kids or knows kids or plans to have kids, definitely to add that one. But then Thomas is also a prolific author and has written several other books, including did the book that you wrote during COVID Because I thought I heard about this. It was called the Contagion Myth, right?

Yep. And then there's another one which is more of a booklet called Breaking the Spell.

Yeah, I read both of those, but I thought I heard one of them, like, got banned or got pulled from Amazon or something like that. Is that true?

That is true. And the interesting part of this story is. So it was put on Amazon by the publisher was Skyhorse, and then Amazon took it down. But I know for a fact that nobody at Amazon actually read the book. The publisher said they actually didn't send them either an electronic or a hard copy of the book. They were planning to, so they basically banned it because of the title.

That's funny, because it was called the Contagion Myth. But did you change the title and just put it back?

Yeah. Then Skyhorse changed the title to the Truth About Contagion, and then it's back on Amazon. Okay.

Yeah. And that book, it was really good. It was all about viruses, but almost. And correct me if I'm wrong, kind of the big takeaway message for me from that one, because I was lucky enough to get my hands on a copy before it got pulled off Amazon. So I think. I think I've got one of the limited edition super valuable ones that still says the Contagion Myth. It was about how our bodies are almost like an environment that have been disrupted by electromagnetic pollution and atmospheric issues that have dictated that we're more susceptible to these. These. I think you call them viruses, but I don't even remember. Was that book saying that the viruses don't exist or that the viruses aren't problematic, it's our internal biology that's problematic?

Yeah. There's no such thing as a pathogenic virus. That is a.

As a pathogenic virus. That's a good clarification, though, because I've talked to some people, like, there's no such thing as a virus. I'm like, yeah, there is.

No, actually. Actually, Ben, I would say there isn't. Not in any formal sense of the word. And I can flesh that out if you want. Yeah.

You know what? I guess I had planned on talking more about the other V stuff, the vegetables. But you know what? Just while we're on this, I can't just leave that behind, that big question mark behind. So you say there's just a thing as a pathogenic virus. What do you mean?

It all has to do with Definitions here. So the first thing I would say is a virus, which is Latin for poison. And, you know, it's interesting because I know how smart you are, Ben, and I know what a good interview. And so I think it would be best for us to really engage and not like. So I'm going to say things like. Does this sound right to you? So the first thing about a virus is it's a particle, which means it's a thing. And the reason I say it like that is because we're not talking about, like, a feeling or a thought or an idea or something that exists in a computer. We're talking about a physical particle that has a piece of genetic material, either RNA or DNA, and it's surrounded by a protein. That's what we mean by a virus.

But it's not a life form.

That's a whole different question. And I wouldn't go there right now. Okay. I would only say that's what we mean. And then we. Then we say viral theory is this particle, which is its own entity. Whether it's living or not is a whole different question. It lives in the environment or it exists in the environment. It comes into living beings, animals and humans. It reproduces itself inside the tissues or cells of that host, makes hundreds, thousands, millions of copies of itself in that process. It causes disease, and then it gets spewed out into the environment and finds the next host, and the whole thing continues. That's what we mean by a virus.

So what you just said, when you say that's what we mean by a virus, you would agree that that thing that you've just described does exist on our planet?

No, that thing that I just described does not exist.

Oh, really?

Yes, very. And it's very easy to see. Okay, Want me to explain it?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Again, because if we go on and talk about heirloom carrots right now, we're just going to leave everybody hang. So keep going.

Okay, so that's the theory, right? It's called viral theory. So now we get into, is that theory true? Right? Because, you know, it could be true. Any theory could be true or not. So the first thing I would say is when some people say, well, of course viruses are pathogens and do all this that I just described. The reason I know that is because, like, people get chicken pox and one person after another gets sick, and that proves it's a virus. Or they'll say, you get bit by a dog and then the dog has rabies, and then you get rabies, and that proves It's a virus. Or they'll say, my Uncle Harry went to church and somebody tested positive and that proves it's a virus. And you hear all these kind of stories, right? Now, the fact of the matter is those are epidemiological observations. And the role of epidemiology in medicine is to generate hypothesis or theories which then can be proven. And I would submit that none of those proves that there is in existence any virus. For example, if you think being bitten by a rabid dog proves there's a virus, that means you must think that the only thing in the saliva of a dog is a virus, which is obviously ludicrous. If you think that just because a lot of people get sick in the same place proves it's a virus, then you must think that Hiroshima was a virus. If you think that because disease, the same symptoms spread from one person to another, then you must think that Chernobyl was a virus. Now, obviously nobody thinks those things, right?

At least a virus in the sense that we tend to use the word in science because obviously we talk about, I don't know, like a viral video, right? So the word has expanded in terms of its use. But you're saying as far as a virus being an infectious agent that would allow for the spread of these diseases, that that is not the case.

I'm saying that none of those things I just said prove that there's anything called a virus that exists or causes disease.

Now, what about when you see, you know, like the coronavirus, for example, you know, you see all these little like 3D images with the spike protein and a thousand little things lined up.

I'll get to that in a second. Let me say the next thing here, which I want you to be. Listen to this really carefully and I'll tell you why I know this for sure. Then you may not agree or you may think it sounds weird, and I hope that we give. You challenged me on this, but after two years of looking into this, because I didn't necessarily think this. I've been thinking about this for 30 years, but I didn't know the details until about two and a half years ago. It is absolutely true that there is not one published scientific paper that has demonstrated the existence of any virus in any biological fluid of any sick human or animal. Let me say that again. If you take like a chicken pox lesion, you cannot find anything that you could call a chickenpox virus. If you take the saliva of a rabbit dog, you will not find this particle called a rabies virus. And the Same with a coronavirus. There is no published paper showing anything that could be called SARS COV2. That's the Coronavirus in any bronchial fluid or snot or blood or any other tissue of any human being. Here are the people who agree with what I just said. Number one, 150 different health institutes like the CDC and the NIH and the Canadian Health Ministry and the Robert Koch Institute and the Louis Pasteur, having asked them, is this true in writing, they said yes. Now here's another one. We were on a call with prominent anti vax lawyers and activists and doctors, researchers, and they were very unhappy with what I was saying about this. And so they invited a guy to join the call who they introduced me to him as 20 year senior virologist at the Wuhan Institute of virology, and then 20 years lab director at Yale University Virology Lab, 40 years expert in laboratory virology. And I said this to him, is there one paper of any pathogenic virus, SARS CoV2, chickenpox, measles, mumps, Ebola, HIV? And he said, no, there is not one paper. And I said, why not? And he said, because there's not enough virus to see see in any fluid of any sick person. Now let's think about this for a minute. So there's not enough virus to see in your lung. That's weird because how is it making you sick? But then I asked him, or actually a friend of mine who was with me, what about if you mixed the bronchial fluid of 10 people together, is there enough fluid to find one SARS CoV2 virus? He said, no. Hundred people? No. 1000 people? No. 10,000 people. You mix their snot together, would you be able to find one SARS CoV2? And he said no. And then he wouldn't answer anymore. Ben, the point is, if you think, not you, but anybody out there listening, that you can find this virus in any fluid of any sick person, you are simply misinformed because that's not how they do it.

Now, a quick, quick question for clarification for me, because like, you know, when I interviewed, I think it was Zach Bush. When I interviewed Zach Bush, he talked about how, you know, the billions and billions of viruses that are essentially like genetic packages of information that kind of like update the genetics of the planet and humans on a regular basis and almost act as signaling molecules. I think the term that he used was the virome, kind of like the microbiome, the virome, to describe this idea that viruses are all over the freaking planet and all over inside our bodies. Are you saying that what he is calling a virus is not really a virus? And how is he misinformed? Can you explain?

I can, but it would be better for me to finish this before I tell you exactly why he thinks that and how it's misinformed. Okay, okay. I don't mean to be, like, so pedantic about it.

No, I'm all ears. And by the way, just so the audience knows, I didn't plan on having this discussion. So I didn't come in having looked at a lot of studies beforehand. So whenever I get into a discussion like this, I. At the back of my mind I'm like, oh, now I gotta go look for this paper or this paper, but let's do this anyway. Despite me coming into this discussion a little bit less informed than I probably should be.

Right? But I know how good you are at this, Ben, so I'm going to keep going because I know you can follow it here, having said that. So you can say, well, everybody agrees that you can't find the virus in any fluid or any tissue or any organ of any sick person. But the problem is there are, let me take a guess here, 10,000 papers with the title the isolation of Such and Such a virus, including SARS CoV2 from the bronchial fluid of a Person with COVID or a patient with measles or chicken pox or rabies or some. I don't know if it's 10,000, but I probably read 500 of them myself. So it's a lot of papers. So the question is, Tom, what the hell are they talking about? You just said you never found the virus. So let me tell you exactly how they did that and what they mean by isolation. But before I do that, Ben, I want to give you an analogy here so you really, you and your listeners really understand what I'm talking about. Imagine you have a house, and the bottom of the wood is rotting in your house. And you say, I wonder why the wood is rotting. I wonder if they're termites. And you look and you don't find any termites. And you call 150 different expert termite companies, right? And they all come and look and they have magnifying glasses and microscopes, et cetera, et cetera. They're experts in finding termites. And none of. They all say, there are no termites here. And then one of them says, I know a way to see, to prove that there are termites. Now, I think all of us would be suspicious because they already said there's no termites. But they said, what I'm going to do, Ben, is I'm going to take a piece of your wood and I'm going to grind it up and I'm going to put it in a big vat and I'm going to put termite eggs in there. And then I'm going to put some termite growth powder and egg hatching powder, and then I'm going to wait five days and I'm going to see if there are termites. And if there are, that proves they were eating your house. Now, most of us, upon hearing that, would say, excuse my French here, but that's crazy. Like the. And the diff. And so let me describe how they isolate a virus, okay? They take bronchial fluid. They don't purify it. So it's got bacteria, it's got fungus, it's got dead cells, it's got poisons, it's got all kinds of stuff in it. They inoculate that onto monkey kidney cells, which has its own genetic material and has little particles in it. Then they add fetal calf serum, and then they take away the nutrients of the culture. So they starve it and then they poison it with antibiotics, gentamicin and amphotericin, which, interestingly, are kidney poisons. And the culture they use are monkey green kidney cells.

Okay, this sounds like my morning smoothie, by the way.

Yeah. Then they. The culture of the cells breaks down into a million pieces, right? Because it's dead and dying, because you've starved it and poisoned it with the snot and with antibiotics. And they say that cytopathic effect, cell killing effect, that proves there was a virus in your snot. And they call that isolation of the virus.

That's how they are proving, if we want to use that term, that the exposure to something like Covid is causing an illness is by creating this biochemical soup, so to speak, and exposing it to, I'm assuming, animals and then saying that.

Not animals, animal tissue.

Animal tissue. So, I mean, animals, animals tissue, huh?

Culture, where they take away the nutrients and they specifically put in toxins that break down the tissue.

By the way, this is a little bit reminiscent for me of the China Study, the deal where they claim that I think it was something like a casein protein causes cancer. But what they did was they gave, I believe, a rodent model cancer and then gave it a bunch of casein and observed the cancer to grow, and then dictated that casein causes cancer when in fact, it amplified tumor cell growth in an already pre existing cancerous condition.

Exactly. Now, here's the interesting thing. These particles that you mentioned that they can see, so they do see particles because those are breaking down dead and dying cells. Now, the history of this is once they invented an electron microscope and they could see these particles, they realized they couldn't find these particles in any sick tissue or fluid. And so then a guy named John Enders invented this process which I just described, which he said was the viral culture. And that's the only way you can find the viruses. Now, here's what's interesting about it. When he did his original paper, and he did it with measles, he took some measles, snot, mixed it with monkey kidney cells, antibiotics, horse serum, fetal calf serum, horse embryo style stuff, the thing broke down. And he said, that proves it's a virus. And then he repeated the study and he did all the steps, except he didn't add anything from measles. And you know what happened? The same thing. And he says in that paper, the results are, quote, indistinguishable. Now, most of us hearing that would say, well, that proves that you just starved and poisoned a cell culture. And it broke down into these little pieces of particles which are erroneously called viruses.

And what was the name of this researcher again?

John Enders.

John Enders. Okay.

Now, interestingly, that study was not repeated until me and Andy Kaufman and Stefan Lenke decided to do it again. And so what we did was we, you know, they did it.

We.

I was like the cheerleader and the fundraiser. So I'm not like, trying to take credit for something I didn't actually do. But what we did in this study was we took tissue culture the same way they do it all the virology studies, all of them. This is how they say they find the virus. We grew it and it grew fine. That was step one. Step two was we added a little bit of fetal calf serum and it grew fine. Step three was we took away the nutrients, we added amphotericin and gentamicin, two antibiotics, same concentration that they used in all the studies. And the tissue broke down, proving there was a virus. But we never added anything from any virus to the sample, proving that it's the process of culturing that caused the breakdown. Now, in the final step, we added yeast rna, and then we were able to find the genome of SARS CoV2. Even though there was no genome of any virus or any snot or any sick person anywhere near that experiment at Any time proving that that genome was a manufactured, fabricated illusion that you can make out of just adding yeast RNA to a sample. So. So when I say the virus has not been shown to exist, there's three ways that a virologist. This is like a stool with three legs. The first leg is we did a viral culture and it broke down. Now, let me just say one thing about this. If viral theory is correct, right? And what we're told is you breathe in this virus, it, quote, infects your lungs, makes a million copies of itself. Why isn't your lung a viral culture? Why can't you find it in the lung? Why does everybody agree you cannot find this particle in anybody's lung? So that's step one. Step two is, oh, it breaks down, you see these little particles? That proves it's a virus. That's the question you asked earlier. It turns out that those exact particles have been found since 1970 in kidney biopsies in lung cancer. They are nothing more than artifactual staining, breakdown of the tissue. Here, Ben, let me give you another analogy. Imagine you have this theory that you go around, you say I look at all the houses on my block and I say, I have a theory that there's little bits of paper, and the little bits of paper get into the house, reproduce themselves, create thousands of copies of themselves and blow up my house. And then you see thousands of little bits of paper all scattered all over the lawn, right? Now what you see is you don't see any little bits of paper. And then later you see thousands of bits of paper. That means Dostoevsky blew up your house. Well, turns out Dostoevsky didn't blow up your house. Somebody put some dynamite in there, they blew up the house. There was, you know, Dostoevsky novels in Mad magazine and New York Times or whatever, and that's what we call the viruses. They're just garbage from a blown up house.

Okay?

So has misinterpreted little pieces of genetic material, all of which came from the inside. And he has called that a virus, which is a complete misconception, I'm sorry to say it because I like the guy and all. It makes a good story, but it's just not true.

Okay? So I want to see if I understand based on my notes here, that I'm piecing all this together as you go along. So first of all, what I heard you say was a virologist, when they're studying in a lab and looking at cells dying and interpreting that as viral, that first of all, they're basically unintentionally starving and poisoning cells and killing cells in a laboratory condition. But it is the experimental condition that they have created in the laboratory healthy cells that are causing these cells to die and not necessarily a virus itself. It's an experimental condition that's been created in a fabricated laboratory environment.

Yeah. The only thing I would correct is these tissue cultures that they use, mostly they're called vero cells. They're not necessarily healthy tissue. They're inbred. Like foreskin and fetal embryo tissue going back 20, 30 years, they're inbred, and they're programmed to die in this way. But otherwise. You got it exactly right.

Okay. And then so secondarily, if a virologist needs to actually, like, identify what they might be calling a virus, they're using like a. Like a genetically, or to my understanding, even like a computationally generated genetic strand and not necessarily a real strand that we actually find in the real world. So these fabricated, you know, if you want to call them, viral genetic material strands that they're testing and identifying as, like HIV or Ebola or measles or Sarcov 2, those are sequences from animals or bacteria or plants or humans or fabricated. But they're basically never actual sequences that we're finding in real world conditions, only in laboratory conditions. Is that correct?

Correct. Let me flesh that out, because you're very good at this. That's why I love talking to you, Ben. So, number one, there is nothing that you could call a whole genome found in any biological fluid of any person. That is a fact. They all agree with that. Now imagine this, and here's how they found the first SARS CoV2 genome. They took 56 million little bits of RNA and they essentially put them together to make a complete genome that they said was the same as a similarly made SARS CoV1 genome in 2003. And the way to think of this is imagine I gave you 56 million pieces of a puzzle, right? And I said, ben, make the correct picture. Now, what would you do?

I would be able to generate some kind of, like, a picture. I mean, like, don't they.

I want the correct picture.

I don't think I'd be able to.

Make it necessarily right, because there is no picture.

So if we're looking at electron microscope images of these supposed viruses, are you saying that a virologist has never actually isolated or biochemically characterized or obtained this supposed genetic material from viruses that they're photographing using an electron microscopic image?

You know, they've never Taken that picture and shown a, that it's actually a virus and not breakdown of your own tissue.

Yeah.

And they've never taken that, that structure, isolated it and taken the genetic material. Only out of that. Now, let me read you an article from a NIH journal. Here's what they said about those. I just happen to have it here. These pictures, these electron microscope pictures that are called SARS COV2, right, that's what they're calling them, do not demonstrate coronaviruses. Rather, the structures described as virus are clathrin coated vesicles, normal subcellular organelles involved in intracellular transport. And I have 50 papers that say these things they're calling viruses have been found since the 70s. They are protein coated debris from your kidneys, from your lungs, from your spleen. They are not exogenous viruses. They are garbage. Just like you would find little bits of paper if you blew up your house. These are garbage. Now, even that little garbage, there is no paper where they just purified the garbage, right? The little bits and then sequenced that. Not one paper. If you find one and prove me wrong, I will publicly say that I was wrong about this, but I know I'm not. All they do is they take this soup of 56 million pieces and without having a puzzle picture, they construct a picture. And you can't do that, but then they have a consensus and they say, well, this must be the picture. Once they have that picture, that becomes the blueprint for making all the future puzzles. And every time they do it, they get a slightly different answer. And so that's why we have currently 7 million variants, because every time they try to make the new picture, they make it slightly different because the genetic sequences that you have are different from a pig and different from a bat and different from the next person. And there is no actual puzzle.

So, so there, there's, you're saying like there's no actual logical, like biochemical characterization of what they're calling a virus. Like if I'm understanding you correctly, a virologist is mixing like monkey cells with human cells, with fluids, stepping back and observing what's happening in that mixture like under a microscope in a virology lab. But in terms of the actual isolation of small particles that we might actually call viruses, there's actually no isolation of these particles. They're just like a soup where I would imagine there's like exosomes and, you know, and just thinking back to my chemistry days, like you know, microvilli and micelles and these things coming off the cells but basically there's no actual virus that has been isolated, correct?

100% correct.

I didn't know that.

And Ben, I'm staking my entire career on this because I have spent with, you know, a bunch of friends. I will admit we're all looking for any single paper. And I presented this in front of I don't know how many people. Now, nobody has a paper. They all say, well, you cannot find the virus except if you do this culture. And you say, yeah, but I just showed you that the culture breaks down without any virus. That's the end of the. And I show you these same pictures that you referenced earlier. I show you 50 studies saying, yeah, we can't tell whether those are clathrin. It's a protein coated debris. Just to top it off, one of the most famous SARS cov2 papers. The guy did the culture and he said, we found these pictures of the coronavirus. Then he said, and I can almost memorize it because I've said it so many times, but initially they didn't look like a coronavirus. We added trypsin, which is a protein digesting enzyme, and then it dissolved the coating. And look, it looks like a corona. I thought, you've got to be kidding. That's like I go out to my barn and I see a bunch of kittens and I say, I'd rather have a chicken. So I put some feathers on it and look, it's a chicken.

You know, when we're looking at the alleged genome sequence of SARS COV2 that's never actually been sequenced, but is instead like a computer based, like a software mathematical model of what this theoretically looks like without it ever having been actually isolated.

Exactly right. And by the way, here are Christian Drost and I don't have the paper in front of me. He made the original PCR primers which are. That is the model for all the PCR tests that have been used since then. That was the first in the original paper. He says, this was a challenging. Again, I'm paraphrasing here because I don't have the paper in front of me. This was a challenging adventure because we didn't actually have a copy of the virus. We only had an in silico, meaning in the computer sequence, which the computer generated out of 56 million reads. And we actually had no idea where these reads as a little pieces. And then he said, oh, well, these sequences must be unique to the virus. And then we did a blast search and we found that those sequences are in 93 different parts of the human genome, and 93 different microbes have that same sequence. Now, let me just finish. So why does somebody say we have 10 to the 40 millionth or whatever, 46 power viruses in our quote Virome? All of those are different genetic pieces, and they are not particles called a virus. And so they have redefined a particle as a piece of genetic material, which is only coming because when you're sick, or not sick even, you break down, you make these little pieces and they call those viruses. They say that's why you got sick with no evidence of any particle or that there's any relation to any sickness.

So if we can't, then we haven't sequenced viral genomes and we've just been puzzling them together using computational models, and we haven't isolated these particles that we're saying are a virus, nor have we found them in any form of infected tissue. I guess the question for me is, like, what is it that's causing the symptoms that people are running around with, complaining about the dry cough and. And the damage to the lung tissue and all the issues that made what we've experienced the past couple of years a seemingly problematic sickness, whatever's causing it.

So let me say something about that because A, it's a good question, and B, it's also not a good question. The reason it's not a good question is in some ways, if I had to do over these last two years, in some ways, I might have stopped there where I said. Because all I can tell you for sure is there is no evidence that this virus exists. And since there's no evidence that exists, it cannot possibly cause any disease. Therefore, there's no reason to mask or inject people with stuff or social distance or quarantine or any of that stuff. Makes no sense. Now the next question. Same with chickenpox. So the question is, so why do people get sick? So one thing I could say is I don't know. I mean, all I know is it's not a virus. And one of the reasons. Turns out I do know, or at least I think I have an idea of that. But I would say the first and most important thing is you don't have to know the answer to know that it's not that. Like, if somebody says the reason for rain is there's elephants pissing up there in the heavens and you look and you don't find any, you can say, I don't think that's right. And I don't really know why there's rain but it turns out that, you know, if you look at a simpler illness like chickenpox, number one, we cannot find it in the vesicles. So here's how I think about this. First of all, we have misinterpreted disease. We say that you're sick with chickenpox, when actually what's happening is something happened to you, interestingly, like a viral culture. And this is where your great work has come in. The reason you break down a viral culture is you starve and poison it. So how do you make a child stick? You starve and poison it. How can you starve it? By not eating Ben Greenfield cookbook food. Then you're starving, then you break down, and then you excrete toxins through your skin and through your snot and you get feverish to help break down your tissue. And all of that, which we call disease, is simply a cleansing process.

What I'm asking you, and maybe you're getting to this, is why that cleansing process seems to have been significantly amplified the past two and a half years or so.

Right? We'll get to that in a second. Now, the next step is we know if somebody says, yeah, but it gets communicated from one person to another, which to a certain extent may be true, but it also may be an illusion. If you put rat poison out and then you see one rat dying after another, is that because they communicated something or they just got poisoned and started dying? For 100 years they thought they saw sailors on ships, their teeth fell out and they went into heart failure and died. And they said, quarantine them, they have some communicable disease. And then somebody ate a lemon or a lime and the whole thing went away because they had scurvy. Same thing with pellagra and beriberi. And we've had a lot of experience of the.

I don't know, man. It's possible there's an invisible particle on that chip circulating around that removed people's appetite and preference to eat citrus fruits. There's always that possibility, right?

Exactly. You can make up all kinds of things, but, you know, and even women communicate their menstrual cycle. Right? You put 20, 20 year old girls or women.

Yeah, I've heard that.

And so isn't it possible since trees communicate, you know, there's beetles here, you should protect yourself. Isn't it possible that children say, you know what? There's some. There, there's some problem here, you know, like there's some toxin in the environment or some universal thought that's making us sick. Let's all do chickenpox together. And so there's some sort of electromagnetic field communication, and that's how things look like they're passed from one to another. Now to get into your question, it's very simple. So if in fact, you know, so first thing, has there really been more disease? You know, you look at, there's a town in Germany, I don't remember the name of it, that keeps very careful statistics of how many people died. And they did May, and I don't have the exact numbers, but May 2019. So before the pandemic, 7490, I think May 2020, height of the pandemic, 7300 people died. May 21, after 70% of the people were injected. Now we have 8600 people died. So this whole thing of, well, a lot more people died doesn't look like it from that number. If there are people getting sick, it's the same reason as the chickenpox and the cell cultures and measles and hiv. Just like you've said all along, you're being starved or poisoned or I would say deluded is the third reason.

Well, you know, I got to ask you this because I think I've seen this particularly related to you pop up before, that perhaps something else happened on the planet during that time that might have caused us to become less healthy. Like that book, I think it's called the Electric Rainbow, that gets into how every time some big new electrical contraption, like a whole bunch of cell phone towers or 5G rollouts or things like that have occurred, that there seems to be like a significant kind of like dip in global human health? It's a very interesting and like almost disturbing book if it's, if it's true. Is that the book, the Electric Rainbow?

It's called the Invisible Rainbow.

The Invisible Rainbow, yeah. So do you think it could be something like that, like a global shift in the use of some type of technology or something like that that could have caused us to become less healthy in general?

Yes, that's possible. I would say, first of all, there's a lot in that book that's interesting and there's a lot that I actually don't agree with. But the problem here, Ben, is everything I said about viruses I can substantiate with literally scores of peer reviewed published papers. But when you get into, so why do people get chickenpox except viruses, why do people get symptoms of dry cough and low oxygen? Nobody studies it. There's almost no papers. Now, I do have papers Showing that millimeter waves cause an interference of the availability of oxygen in the air. They also poison your mitochondria which uses the oxygen making you have a metabolic disease relating to hypoxia. I've seen that. And then you get breakdown in the tissues and even the production of little particles from breaking down your tissues that are confused with so called coronaviruses. Now is that proof? No. But my only point is, because we already know that there is no SARS CoV2, that viruses are not pathogenic, that it's about time that somebody in our world actually looks into why we're getting sick. And you know, that's the kind of, the interesting thing for me is, you know, I mean, you're really, you've been pioneering this like folks, you've got to keep yourself fit, you've got to eat good food. You, you write down exactly what good food is, right? And you even give people recipes. It was a brilliant book you wrote.

I know I should have called it in retrospect. Now I'm talking to you. We should have called it the COVID Cookbook.

Right?

That would have.

Don't starve yourself and don't starve yourself of love or spirituality, or have stupid thoughts, or suck up your cell phone under your pillow. Lots of things. These are common sense. And it wouldn't hurt to actually study because when we do study it, well, it turns out if you don't eat good food, you don't do as well. I mean, who would have thought, you.

Know, I know that if people's heads are spinning right now, they probably need a quick summary. And then I've got a couple more questions for you. I don't even know if we're going to get to talk much about vegetables today, but perhaps this is where God has brought us this discussion. So we'll roll with it. So basically I want to walk through this. You just interrupt me and correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. Because I have to summarize it one more time for people just to make sure people really get this. So basically, in order to prove that a virus exists, you gotta isolate it or purify it, right? And then like get a picture. Yes, essentially in very simplistic terms what.

You mean by isolation. Because mixing it with a vat of stuff is not right.

And I would agree with you on that point. I totally would. And so what a virologist would do if they did want to isolate and characterize and demonstrate the existence of a virus or a new thing like SARS cov2 they would take a bunch of samples from infected people, like blood or sputum or I don't know what else. You might collect some type of bodily secretion from people who are demonstrating symptoms of what we suspect might be a virus. And those symptoms are, you know, unique and specific enough to where we can say, okay, all these people are showing signs of something that shows that they have something that we suspect might be something. And then basically what they then do is they take those samples and ideally they would not mix them with anything else that has any other genetic material. And then they would do what they do in a lab, you know, filter it and macerate it and centrifuge it and purify this specimen. And that would be a common virology technique that I understand that virologists have done for quite some time to isolate like bacteriophages and so called viruses. And if they did that, that would allow them to demonstrate within, typically like an electron microscopy tool, a whole bunch of different particles that they would then be able to say are the isolated and purified virus. Then they could go and check those with microscopic techniques to determine the purity and to further characterize the particle examining like the structure or the chemical composition or what we call the morphology. And then you'd have to extract the genetic material from that, right, from these purified particles. And then that would be done using like a genetic sequencing technique. That's old technology, it's been around for decades. And then you would analyze whether those particles are outside the cell, what we call like exogenous, meaning that they were something that originated from somewhere outside the human body. And they weren't like the normal breakdown products of dead or dying tissue in the body. And if you've done all of that, you would have fully isolated and characterized and genetically sequenced this particle that you would then want to call a virus. And then if you successfully did that, you'd then have to go out and show that it's actually causally related to a disease. So you'd have to expose a bunch of like healthy subjects, you know, preferably these days, they would be cute little animals and you'd expose them to this isolated purified thing that you suspect is a virus in the manner in which you thought that virus might be transmitted, like whatever, saliva or coffin or, I don't know, blood transfusion or whatever. And then if those animals got sick with the same disease as the original ones you were studying, if you were to confirm that with some type of clinical finding or Autopsy, finding. Then you would have the bodies in the streets, and you would say, okay, we've isolated something we're going to call the virus. It actually causes a disease, and we've demonstrated infectivity and transmission in addition to the existence of such a virus. That's what you would ideally do, right?

That is not ideally. That's the only way to. To do this in any rational way. Ben, you got it exactly right. The only thing I would add is all of these things you're talking about, as you said, are standard virology techniques that go back to the 30s. Okay, if somebody says to you, oh, well, you can't find this purified virus in 1940, there's pictures of bacteriophages, which are identical shape and morphology as viruses, essentially, and they easily found that. And the only other thing I would say is when you do that, you should find something that's millions of copies of identical particles. Not like one is this size and one is that size. Right.

You'd be looking for some type of uniformity.

Yes, exactly. That's the virus.

Okay, got it. And so then, to finish my thought here is what you're saying, that instead, instead of what I've just described as being like the ideal scenario, that what virologists. Okay, yeah. The only rational way, really, it's just scientific method. Right. So you're saying that instead, what's going on is a virologist will take an unpurified sample from, like, an animal or a human model that's displaying these symptoms, and then they would process that and take an unpurified sample, take tissue culture that contains a whole bunch of other material, much of that material potentially containing the identical genetic material as what they're thinking is the virus. And then they starve it, they poison it, it disintegrates into all these different particles, some of which would contain genetic material. And then once they have that brew that contains these fragments of genetic material from all these different sources, they then analyze that to create this computer simulation process that shows the suspected sequence of the suspected virus in what you called an in silico. It's like the computer chip, I suppose, what comes to mind, like an in silico, like a computer programmed genome. But at no time is in that entire sequence an actual isolated viral particle confirmed by electron microscopy, nor is it extracted and sequenced from an actual virus. This is all like blue sky theoretical science.

Correct?

If you want to call it that. If you want to call it science. Huh?

It's not science. It's Anti science.

Wow, this is interesting. Wow.

Got it exactly right. And I knew you would because we've been through this before.

Geez, I just went to school. I did. I should have. I didn't have any coffee this morning. I should had a cup of coffee this morning. Okay. But man, this is just. It's kind of like one of those discussions where it's like, I don't really know what question to ask you next because it's. It's kind of clear, like you've laid it out. It's like we know that there's probably a whole bunch of unhealthy things that people are doing that are causing them to become sick. We know that the virus that's being blamed for the sickness doesn't exist or at least has never been proven to exist. And therefore the very best thing that we can do right now is just take better care of ourselves. Is that basically.

Absolutely. You got it exactly right.

Okay.

Isn't that surprising, right? We've been through this before.

Okay, so tough question.

You can get into all kinds of discussion. Well, you got to think about what you eat. You have to think about how you see life, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And so tough question, because what will happen is people are going to hear this. I'm going to go Google Thomas Cowan. And I know that if you google you right now, you look you up, there's. There's like a story about who you surrendered your medical license. And obviously I don't want to get all negative, but I'm gonna ask because people are gonna ask anyway, so. So why did you. Why did you surrender. Why did you have to surrender your medical license?

So, I mean, it's. So I was investigated. This is.

By the way, this is saving us from having to do this in the comments section once the post comes out. So.

So the first investigation of me by the California Medical Board came because a cancer patient called me up. She had exhausted all other treatments, and I said, here, do this. And it helped her. But she got scared that it wasn't officially sanctioned. Somebody must have told her, well, they don't use mistletoe. And regular associate calls the California medical board and says, this guy is treating me with. What's the word? Unsanctioned things. Treatments for cancer. Unbeknownst to me, California has a law, and as they say, ignorance is no defense. But California has a law saying that medical doctors are not allowed to treat cancer patients with anything but radiation, chemotherapy, or surgery. By definition, I had broken the law. Medical license. Interestingly, she actually was doing Better. And then called the medical board and said, well, never mind. But already by then, the investigation was going on. And so then we ended up with a sort of plea bargain. And they put me on probation, which they, you know, they make you take classes and.

Do you still live in California?

No.

Did you move somewhere else where you could practice your license, or did you have to surrender in, like, all the states?

I'll get to that. So that's what happened. And I knew that my time was. My time was limited. Right. Because once you're on the radar, then there's a lot. And so then nothing happened. The probation was more or less fine. Then Covid started, and I started explaining similar to what I just explained to you. Right. In interviews and webinars. And so then they start investigating me for putting out on. I'm not sure the wording here, but because there's legal terms, but unsanctioned story on or advice or information about COVID So of course, I asked them, do.

You mean information similar to what we just got done discussing?

Yeah. Okay. More or less. I know more now than I did then, but close. I said, can you tell me what. Anything that I said that was actually incorrect because I'll be happy to change it. Well, we didn't listen to what you said. We just know that you can't say that. I said, well, who decides whether you can say. Whether I can say it or not? They didn't know. So this kind of went on. And then I realized that this was not going to work. By then, I had already decided I was moving from California and I didn't want to practice medicine anymore. I cannot then be part of that system. I just couldn't do it. And, you know, I mean, in some ways, I'm a lucky guy because our businesses are doing well, our powder. And so I had some way to make a living. I mean, I'm not rich by a long shot, but I didn't need to do that anymore. And I knew it wasn't going to work well. And so I said, let me just turn in my license and we're good. And then they said, no, you can't just turn in. You have to surrender. But I didn't like that word. But so I.

You could spin it in a positive light, you know, like. Like books, like surrender. The process of letting go and, you know, the idea of releasing all attachments in life. Right, right.

So, you know, I mean, I've done this for 38 years. I just felt like that's not where my destiny lies. At this point.

Yeah.

And so I didn't need to do it anymore, so I quit. Where do you live?

Where'd you move to?

I don't say that.

Oh, okay.

All right. Well, I say that you're my children, so I could see my.

I was just curious, just in case you happen to be up in my neck of the woods. I didn't know.

I Eastern us.

Yeah. I'm in the process of paying close attention to everything from, you know, mandates to some of the tomfoolery from a legal and restrictive standpoint point here in the state of Washington. And I can tell you right now that the discussion at the family dinner table is occurring quite frequently about whether or not we've got about 12 acres over on the Idaho side and we're considering maybe slipping away into the backwoods a little bit deeper over that direction and just living at the base of the beautiful mountains near Moscow with access to a whole lot of elk. But that's a discussion for another day. The thing that I wanted to bring up, because I would be remiss because I mentioned them earlier in the podcast and they do really relate to this idea of eating healthier. People ask me all the time about my bastardization of the carnivore diet. Because my diet, it's essentially all these little cold water fish, salmon and sardines and herring and mackerel and anchovy, and then a ton of liver and heart and kidney and marrow and broth, and about 80% just nose to tail meats and fish. And then I use a bunch of oils, meaning there's this guy named Andreas who was on my show and he does these things called Andreas seed oils. So I use a bunch of his oils and then I use a bunch of your powders. And aside from. And this is where I get really nerdy, I also occasionally take shots of these ketone esters and then essential amino acids to keep my scientifically generated levels of my blood pools of amino acids and my available sources of ketones elevated. And dude, I feel like I've never read this. This is just like what Ben made up, but I feel so good. Basically, no satell organ meats, really, really safely extracted oils from Andreas, all of your vegetable powders that I just dump on everything, and then ketones and amino acids, and that's how I eat now. And dude, like, I feel absolutely amazing. I think a big part of it are your vegetable powders, though. We did a whole podcast on them and I'll link to it in the show notes. But I Got like your ashitaba, your burdock root powder, your turmeric powder. I love the low oxalate greens powder. I put that on, like, my wife made ribs last night and I must have put like four heaping tablespoons of the low oxalate greens powder on that. And then she makes a big old kale salad and stuff. I don't eat the salad. I literally just put the powders and stick with that. And what got me down this road was I was having issues with like, with sibo and with a little bit of gut inflammation and salad seeds, nuts, you know, like crunchy foods, raw fiber, etc. Just didn't agree with my stomach. But eating just carnivore was kind of boring. And I felt like just when I stepped back and looked at things through a nutritionist lens, I realized that I could probably achieve even greater nutrient density and higher levels of health by taking a carnivore diet. And I said, bastardizing it, but really upgrading it with these really great oils and really great powder. So what do you think, man? That's how I'm eating these days. Do I get the thumbs up approval from the doctor? Am I going to grow a third eye here in the next month?

Two thumbs up. Can you see my thumbs?

Okay, I see your thumbs. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, totally.

I mean, you know, I'm not necessarily saying that's everybody should eat like that, like, but, you know, for what you described and, you know, there's so many things about this, you know, choice of me not being a doctor. And one of them was I stopped believing in what we call diseases and more, I started seeing it. Everybody had their story, right? You have your story and what you've done is figure out, okay, what do I need to do to make my story into the story that I want? Right? Here's how I want to live. I want to be this strong and this clear and, you know, and, you know, you worked with it and figured it out and more power to you. Yeah, Sounds absolutely fabulous to me.

Yeah, well, you know, I get these crazy ideas now. I know we're getting long in the tooth and we got to go pretty soon. I get these crazy ideas. I, you know, a lot of people these days, they go off and they do like, ayahuasca and iboga and plant medicine journeys and come back with all their downloads and stuff. And I actually, I got down that road, like, I tried every freaking plant medicine known to man and just journeyed deep and gotten the whole psychonaut thing and was just pretty Much turning to those type of things for my big personal and business and relationship breakthroughs. And then I had this moment about, oh, gosh, I think it was almost two years ago. I thought, I'm a Christian and I'm going to Mother Earth and asking questions of all these plants. And I'm not actually really sitting and asking the same questions of God. And so I began to get up really early in the morning and I just sit for anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes in my basement, just talking with God and listening with God and with a journal open in front of me and a pen or a pencil. And I just ask about certain things. Diet, relationships, business plans, an article I'm working on, questions to ask on a podcast, whatever. And every single morning I just let my hand move as God speaks to me and I just write down all my insights. And so even when it comes to simple things like how should I be eating today? It's the concept of intuitive eating. It's kind of like upgrading that and doing intuitive eating, but throwing God's wisdom into the mix. And man, I come up with ideas now just sitting in the basement every morning at about 4:30am and listening to the voice of God. And I realize that sounds kind of woo woo to a lot of people, but that's how I'm getting the majority of my wisdom and making the majority of my life's decisions these days.

You know, Ben, it sounds absolutely wonderful to me and I only have one thing to say about that because I do something actually very similar. But here is what I found and I'd love to hear your opinion on this. The key is so I often think so. I mean, this may sound weird, but I refer to it as my angel. So I talk to my angel who I think then communicates to God. And if I was an angel, and I don't mean to be presumptuous here, and somebody said, okay, can you help me find a, like a viral, somebody who can help me learn about the viral genome. And then the next day I get an email from somebody who's an expert and wants to help me. But my point here is if I'm going to ask, and then what I get is a message is, oh, you should eat liver. And then I say, I don't like eating liver. I'm not going to eat liver. If I was your angel, I would stop talking to you because the guy doesn't listen to me. The key of that is, oh, wait a minute, you mean I have to eat liver? And it turns out actually you do. Well, at least you got to try it and see how it feels. I think the problem is people think they can do that, but they're only willing to actually implement the things that they think they agree with. And that's not how it works.

That is the definition of trust, my friend. That's the one piece that people miss is if you go to God for the answers, but your subconscious is saying, I'm going to roll with that answer as long as I like it and it agrees with me. Well, here's the deal. The answer is the answer and you would be shocked at what happens. Honestly, I think that's where most people miss the magic of manifestation. Going to God, praying, listening to the internal voice that ideally is not necessarily your selfish little egotistically driven internal voice, but if your relationship is right with the higher powers, the voice of God, well, it's one thing to seek that voice and it's another thing to only act on it when it doesn't make you a little poopy faced or upset. But the magic happens is when with blind faith and trust, you do what it is that you've been inspired or told to do, just trusting that everything's going to work out okay. And I guarantee I have yet to meet one person who has not acted out of blind trust and faith in God, who has been sorry that they did in the end.

I couldn't agree more. The only thing is, I would actually change. I don't think it's blind faith or trust. I think it's appropriate understanding that you don't know as much as what you're hearing and that you're willing to do this as an experiment in what is possible for you.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I think that's a perfect place to end because we're kind of out of time anyways. And even though we didn't get the chance to talk about vegetables as much as I wanted to, because what happened was I was doing all these vegetables, I thought I just got to go talk to Tom because I'm so excited to share my new diet with people because it's really cool. But what I'll do is for everybody listening, if you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com drcowan like drcowan D R C O W A N We actually had a really great podcast about vegetables and vegetable powders and I'm gonna link to that one in the show notes and I'm also gonna link to Thomas's wonderful. It's a beautiful webpage with all these wonderful heirloom vegetables that he powders and ships out in these miron glass jars. I just, I love them. It's like Christmas when these things arrive and I get to figure out what goes well with what. And I have little. It's like when my vinegars arrive and my oils arrive, I do little tastings. I spread them out on the table. I take a little bit of this, a little bit of that. So try out the powders if you haven't yet. And of course I realized that after listening to this podcast that was a little bit of a pattern interrupt. Hopefully that you may have your own questions or comments or feedback. So I would encourage you, if you have your own thoughts to add. Go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com drcowan BenGreenfieldFitness.com D R C O W A N Leave your thoughts there. I read them all. I love to hear what you guys think of these discussions and my goal is to just open up your minds to new possibilities and teach you new things and help you to savor God's creation just a little bit more. And Dr. Thomas Cowan, thanks so much for joining us today.

Thanks, Ben. It's always a real pleasure to talk to you.

Awesome. All right, folks, well, I'm Ben along with Dr. Cowan signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have an amazing week. In compliance with the FTC guidelines, please assume the following about links and posts on this site. Most of the links go into products are often affiliate links, of which I receive a small commission from sales of certain items. But the price is the same for you, and sometimes I even get to share a unique and somewhat significant discount with you. In some cases, I might also be an investor in a company I mention. I'm the founder, for example, of Kion llc, the makers of Kion branded supplements and products, which I talk about quite a bit. Regardless of the relationship, if I post or talk about an affiliate link link to a product, it is indeed something I personally use, support and with full authenticity and transparency recommend. In good conscience, I personally vet each and every product that I talk about. My first priority is providing valuable information and resources to you that help you positively optimize your mind, body and spirit. And I'll only ever link to products or resources, affiliate or otherwise, that fit within this purpose. So there's your fancy legal disclaimer.