Bodybuilding, Biohacking, Biometrics Testing, Children As Mini-Adults, What Ben's Reading & More With Roger Snipes.

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast, that, honestly, is not enough motivation to keep you on the straight and narrow path. Making the right choices, obeying God's law, etc. What it instead comes down to is a deep, deep love for your creator. And a love. And then just like, savor all of God's blessings at the end of the day, lining up in a row, Putting a square peg in a square hole. A round peg in a round hole. Learning at the same pace of the rest of the classroom, getting exposed to peer pressure and bullying. So, Keon, it was kind of funny because I, I actually, I don't know if I've told this story before in a podcast. I may have. Faith, family, fitness, health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the show. It's always difficult to start a podcast when technically you're interviewing me, but I brought the equipment, so. So I don't. I don't know who gets first dibs on the introduction, Roger. But I must say, for anybody who is listening in, we're walking through a park right now in London with a portable microphone. So if you hear, you know, a bird get run over by a tractor, that's why. So, anyways, all right, I'll shut up now.

Awesome traffic, that's for sure. But look, it's a great pleasure to meet you in person. I was actually thinking that it was going to be via Zoom, but to see you in person, it's great, man.

Oh, it's so much. It's so much better. We get. We get to absorb each other's electromagnetic frequencies and. Yeah, and it's always a different conversation when you're face to face or at least walking side by side than zoom. I'm 6 foot 2 inches.

Six, two.

Yeah, 6 foot 2. And I weigh about 175. But I gotta tell you, and I'm only gonna tell you this because I know you're, you know, you have a history of bodybuilding at least a little bit. A little tiny bit.

Just a tiny.

When I was in college, I was 6 foot 2 and I was bodybuilding and I was 215, so. So I was 40 pounds heavier than I am right now.

So your, your training has obviously changed since then. What's. What's your sort of training regimen at the moment?

Oh, well, it's very simple, actually. I am at the stage of my life where I'm trying to prioritize a lot of time with my sons. They're 14 years old. So they're kind of in those formative years when I think they really need a father around leading them through a lot of things. So I've kind of steered the direction of my workouts to be inclusive of a couple of teenage boys taking along with me. So it's pretty much like four things. The foundation of my training, kettlebells, sauna, ice and breath work. Okay, so kettlebell, sauna, ice and breathwork. So I've taken the Russian kettlebell certification and the strong first certification. I do a lot of kettlebell snatches, kettlebell cleans, kettlebell swings, kettlebell deadlifts, goblet squats, etc. I'm in the sauna four to five times a week in a deep sweat for 30. I'm in the cold plunge every day, typically after the sauna, sometimes a couple times a day, two to four minute cold plunges, and then typically anywhere from 15 minute breathwork session three times a week, all the way up to five times a week with an occasional long 60 to 90 minute, more Holotropic type of breathwork session in which interestingly covers a lot of your bases from a cardiovascular standpoint as well. And then I walk a ton. You know, when I travel, I probably walk 20 to 30,000 steps a day. When I'm at home, it's closer to like 12 to 20,000 steps. So a lot of walking when I'm talking on the phone, when I'm having chats with guys like you. And so the only thing kind of missing from what I just presented to you in terms of kettlebells, ice, heat and breath work is that as a guy who's known to be like a biohacker, people send me a lot of like biohacking equipment like blood flow restriction bands and a Vasper MA and these like the ARX single set to failure machine. And I sprinkle that stuff in, you know, kind of like for fun. Throughout the week, I'll throw in a few sessions here and there, but typically I'm doing something hard for a half hour a day and then everything else is just low level physical activity spread throughout the entire day. So my kettlebell workouts are half hour, my saunas are a half hour, my breath work sessions range, you know, if I'm using these biohacking modalities, typically a half hour, I find that that's just kind of like the sweet spot for me, which is great compared to three hours a day in the G. I was bodybuilding, see, you know, split body split training.

Oh man, the precision in training, sometimes it just takes too much time. As you know, when I sent you the message, I was in the gym for a bit, trying to. Trying to get it all in. And then I went back a bit later to do some Muay Thai. And I'll tell you what, the Muay Thai, that was so much more conditioning work. Oh, yeah, I was exhausted.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I. I roll with my sons every once in a while, and I used to do a lot of striking. And yeah, those are those rounds where, you know, you got like, you know, sometimes, you know, the coach would have us do like 2 minute rounds, 30 seconds off and 10 rounds of that, and you're just smoked by the end. You know, jiu jitsu, sometimes longer, four or five minutes. So, yeah, it's great. Great conditioning. Absolutely. So when I was a bodybuilder, though, I did almost all, you know, I joked about body split training. I didn't do a lot of that, you know, because I was a lean gainer, you know, skinny, hard gainer. And so for me, I found a lot of success with about four times a week, full body. Full body, like heavy. So, you know, squats, cleans, deadlifts, push press. And then on the weekends, I'd do a little bit of vanity work, you know, like biceps, calves, and things like that. But that worked really well for me and actually kind of cut down the amount of time I had to spend in the gym.

What's your current body fat? Because you're looking super shredded in your pictures.

Yeah, it's. So Since I was 14 years old, it's always been 4 to 8%. I eat like a horse. I can eat like 4,000 calories a day. My metabolism is screaming high. My parents are lean. All my siblings are lean. My wife is even leaner than me, Like a lean, skinny Montana rancher kind of girl. So, yeah, they're just, despite us, loving our butter and lard and ghee and fatty ribeye steaks and salmon skin and everything else at the house. Like, we Greenfields don't seem to be able to pack on weight very well.

So talking about that with all the meat and stuff, do you have a farm at home? Because I know you do some. Some hunting as well. So what's. What's your whole protocol there when it comes to meat?

Yeah, so my diet is largely kind of like a nose to tail, carnivorous type of diet. I do a lot of bone broth, bone marrow, steaks, rumps, roasts, chops, liver, heart, kidney, a lot of the organ meats. And then I dress that up with, from a very ancestral standpoint for carbohydrates, a lot of cellular living carbohydrates versus acellular processed carbohydrates. So what I mean by that is purple potato, taro, sweet potato, yam, parsnip, beet, carrot, underground root vegetables, things like that, right. For the, for the primary carbohydrate source. And then the other things that I kind of throw in, there is a little bit of raw honey, some dark, dark berries, like low glycemic index berries. I do a little bit. You know, people ask what about the fiber when you're eating all the meat? And I get a lot of, a lot of fiber from foods that fill me up that are very satiating but are low in calories. So I do a lot of like the Japanese yam noodles, I'll do a lot of the pumpkin mash, sea moss gel, chia seed slurries. And the nice part about eating a lot of these foods, you know, eating bone broth, of course, like the gelatinous bone broth, a lot of these foods that are higher in gelatin or thick or clumpy or in a gel like format, they're actually, they're better able to hydrate the body and carry water through the body. Because if you look at Dr. Gerald Pollack's research at University of Washington on the fourth phase of water and water able to be in like this gel like structure which actually is in our cells. If you're getting a lot of your hydration from these water rich foods that are carrying water and kind of nourishing the gut, I find that to be very satiating. And that's kind of how I get my fiber. And so that's generally my diet. The only thing I throw in is from a product standpoint, there's one company in the US called Tom Cowan's Vegetable Powders. And so he basically takes organic heirloom vegetables and powders them and you got turmeric extract and broccoli and high protein leaf powder and root powder, all these wonderful powders. So I'll sprinkle that a lot of times in the same way one might salt their food. And then I also use for oils, the only seed or plant based oils that I touch are aside from extra virgin olive oil or avocado oil from a company called Andrea Seed Oils. And for those, these are like very, very high quality cold pressed, never been exposed to oxidity or rancidity or temperature or pressure, but they're like chia seed, flaxseed, sunflower seed. But these aren't like rancid bastardized plant oils. They're super duper high quality. And a lot of times I'm drizzling stuff like that over the meat. And then most of the meat is either stuff I bow hunt. We've got goats and chickens at home, so we do a lot of goat milk, goat yogurt, eggs, things like that. And then I do a lot of ordering from US Wellness Meats. That's one company in the US that ships out a lot of these non standard cuts and strange cuts of meat and free shipping if you, if you do a big enough order. So I just keep my freezer stocked with that, the meat that I've hunted. And then there's another company, I don't know what it's like in the uk if they have these companies, they'll ship food to you. Like not boxes quite the same. Okay. But there's another one called Seatopia and they ship like sashimi grade fish to my house each month. So that's where I get a lot of the seafood like kampachi and salmon collars and you know, really nice cuts of trout and scallops and the like. So, so yeah, it's pretty, pretty, pretty varied. But you know, I'd say 80% of it is kind of like meat and seafood.

Awesome. How do you make your decisions like with your variety of food? Is it through, I don't know, different sorts of tests? Have you done like a microbiome test to check? Okay, these are the sort of foods I should be eating?

Sure. Yeah. I think that, you know, and this is why I've never really written a diet book because there is no one perfect diet for all of humankind. Right. It's gonna widely vary based on your individual biochemistry. Everything from the size of your stomach or your spleen or your pancreas or your liver to your vitamin D excretion rates or your uric acid excretion rates or your needs from an activity level, your genetic predisposition, maybe you have familial hypercholesteremia and poor gallbladder and liver function. So the ketogenic diet might not be the best choice for you based on just a couple simple parameters like that. From a testing standpoint, what I do and what I have a lot of the, like the clients who I might work with doing nutrition plans for, I do a, I do a stool test. It's like a three day stool test by doctor's Data and that one allows me to look at parasites, yeast, fungus, bacterial markers, microbial imbalances, things like that. And then I do a, like a basic blood panel, you know, your comprehensive metabolic panel and your lipid count, thyroid, you know, just all the, all the basic parameters you get from a blood. And then I do a more micronutrient and toxin based blood test called the Nutrival. And that one looks at a lot of smaller fungal markers, amino acids, fatty acid balances, omega indexes, etc. And then for food allergy, a really, really good gold standard panel that doesn't result in a lot of false positives is called a Cyrex. So I'll do a Cyrex panel for food allergies. And then for the hormones, urine is best because it gives you a really good like running 24 hour view of the hormones rather than blood, which will give you a one time snapshot. Yeah. So the best test for that is called the Dutch, the dried urine test. And that'll also give you some information about neurotransmitter balances, melatonin, you know, upstream and downstream cortisol metabolites, what's testosterone getting converted into, what are the estrogen pathways look like, et cetera. And then the last one would be just like a salivary genetic analysis to see not only what you might be prime tea from an ancestral standpoint, because there is something to that, you know, like what your ancestors ate is something that you might be more accustomed to be able to tolerate. And the other thing you find out from these genetic tests, you know, let's say like the dirty genes test by Dr. Ben lynch called Strategene, it's a fantastic example. You can find out what do your nitric oxide pathways look like, what do your sulfur metabolism pathways look like, what do your histamine tolerance or intolerance pathways look like. So you can kind of see if there's certain things that you might want to do from a genetic standpoint to clean things up or add in.

That's awesome. I mean that's a lot. So how would that work with your family? You know, not every, you've all got slightly different microbiomes or maybe it's quite similar because you eat the same.

Yeah, exactly. There is something to your local environment influencing your biome characteristics. The people that you're around, you share bacteria with them, how long you've lived in a certain area and the type of food you've grown accustomed to in that area. So if you look at my family, we eat somewhat similarly, probably a few differences would be when carbohydrates come out to the table, I'm very low carb. I have a little bit more sensitivity when it comes to blood glucose fluctuations and I'm always highly cognizant of that. So my family will do a lot more of the, like the rice or the sourdough bread or the sweet potato or something like that. I'm usually kind of low on that. I'm usually heavier on the meat. A lot of times my wife will make a lovely salad, but I don't do a lot of raw vegetables. So I might have a very tiny, tiny bit of the salad, but then I'll have extra meat. But every night at our house, you know, there's options for veg, there's options for starch, there's options for meat. And really it's more of like macronutrient considerations because all the food is super healthy. And occasionally there's something like I mentioned the Cyrex food allergy test. Like one of the few foods I truly have an intolerance to from an autoimmune standpoint is green beans, right? So maybe, you know, there will be a dish with green beans, but I'll pick around the green beans, you know, and so it's pretty simple, you know. And I could see there being a more problematic scenario where perhaps someone who can't tolerate fats at all is married to someone with Alzheimer's and dementia who needs to be very, very careful because that's almost like a diabetes type 3 type of disease. It's very responsive to sugars. And so in a scenario like that, you know, you have someone who's, who might be a ketogenically appropriate person living with somebody who might need, you know, a few more carbohydrates. And so it's, you know, it can really vary quite a bit. But at our house, it seems to work out pretty well.

That's awesome. What about your boys when they were a lot younger? Because you have a lot of people who have children and they struggle to give them a healthy diet because all they want is sugar. How did you get around that?

Well, you know, and there's, there's actually a couple of research studies that have came out in the past couple of years about food likes and dislikes later on in age or in adolescence being highly correlated to the type of foods a child is exposed to early on. So, for example, if you take a child and you accustom their palate to sweet cereals and sugar infused baby foods, or even artificially sweetened foods. Or he could even apply this to technology. Heavy exposure to screens, et cetera. Those children grow up being a little bit more inclined to have a preference towards those type of foods. Whereas if you're introducing your child at a very early age to foods with complex flavors, umami flavors, bitter flavors, you're giving them things like, like cabbage and sauerkraut and sardines and avocados and little bits of liver and things that really accustomed their palate early on. The child winds up growing up a little bit more inclined to eat those type of foods. And that's exactly what we did with our sons at an early age. We would go buy organic vegetables and organic fruits and blend them all up and then flash freeze them to have these little purees. And then we'd add things like olive oil and avocado oil and you know, mash up salmon and puree liver and do all these things that basically set up a scenario to where our sons were basically eating a lot of the same foods that we ate, just sometimes pureed, mashed, steamed, boiled, et cetera. And then as soon as a child is able to chew effectively, and this is based on a lot of the research by Dr. Mew, for example, even Weston A. Price's research on this kind of alludes to the fact that a child should be chewing and exercising the jaw. And so that'll directly influence the shape of the teeth and the mouth, the dental health later on in life. And so as soon as a kid is able to start chewing the food, you want them to chew straight away. Because we actually have a society where sleep apnea is a big issue, teeth crowding is a big issue, poor dental alignment is a big issue. And part of that is the high, high amounts of soft, soft foods that a child grows up with. Ultra processed foods that are easy to chew and easy to get through the, through the jaw. And then when you pair that with a relative lack of a lot of these natural fat soluble vitamins, you know, we live in kind of a fat phobic era still. So the kids aren't getting a lot of vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin E, vitamin K, the things that help with bony structure and teeth formation. And so those two factors together are not doing kids or adults any favors from like a stature, jaw alignment, you know, sleep quality type of standpoint. So, you know, so even when we go out to restaurants right from a, from a very, very early age, you know, you look at the kids menu at restaurants and what is it? It's you know, it's chicken nuggets and, and you know, or like white chicken skewers, or like hamburgers and french fries or the macaroni and cheese, you know, highly processed, heavily palatable foods that children, theoretically based on the restaurant's ideas, would and should enjoy. And with our kids. And this hasn't been great for my pocketbook because obviously my kids now order like the expensive entrees off the restaurant menu, but we usually send the kids menus back. We just let the kids eat off of our plates early on and then they order their own meals off the adult menu at the restaurant. Just because the kids menu is just total crap. It's hard to find something healthy on that. So we, in a nutshell, kind of treat the kids like miniature adults when it comes to food selection. You know, of course, under the premise that the adults are actually eating good, healthy quality food with a wide variety of tastes and flavors, textures.

What's your approach in reducing inflammation in the body? Is it like remaining homeostasis or more ormetic stress? I'm sure there's loads of different.

Well, I mean, you know, as you know, you don't want to reduce inflammation. I mean, in the bodybuilding industry, arachidonic acid is one thing. You know, consume post workout to amp up inflammation, increase hypertrophy, you know, satellite cell proliferation, mitochondrial density that all responds to a somewhat inflamed scenario. It's like send your, send your body to World War II and back. If it doesn't die, it comes back stronger. But of course, chronic low level inflammation, such as we would experience with, or an improper diet or heavy, heavy exposure to dirty electricity and emf, or not enough time spent in sunlight or earthing or grounding, or a diet that's very low in flavanols and polyphenols and antioxidants, paired with a lot of, you know, heavy training, which is of course inflammatory, and just general stress, which is inflammatory, dictates that for the average person, you're going to want to be doing something, as you just alluded to, to manage the chronic inflammation there. There's a lot of ways to do it. I think that that cold thermogenesis, you know, which I briefly mentioned earlier. Yeah, I think that a regular cold thermogenesis practice is fantastic for inflammation. In a post workout scenario, you got to wait a little while for like the intense cold because it can shut down some of those adaptive responses that you want to exercise. And so, you know, if you're doing a hard training session in the morning, for example, you might save your like a longer ice bath or something like that for later on in the day. Although a quick cold shower, quick cold plunge should just decrease, increase the body's core temperature so you're not sweating at work or whatever is fine. Another one would be a lot of these dark purples, dark oranges, yellows, blues, even some of the reds and purples. Basically. Eating a diet that's very much like the rainbow gives you a lot of anti inflammatory compounds in the diet with turmeric probably and curcumin probably being two of the do the better ones that are out there in my opinion. Some people think that they're damaging to the gut or they can affect testosterone, but you have to have a pretty high amount for something like that to happen in a very concentrated form. The, the other things would be just the basics, you know, adequate sleep, sunlight exposure. I'm a big fan of infrared light. This concept of photobiomodulation can have an anti inflammatory effect.

How often, how often would you use the infrared light?

Yeah, so infrared light, it depends if it's on the head or the neck or the face area. The general rule is anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes spaced by 48 hours. So there's devices like the Vielight for example, Vie light. And that one is like a head worn device that triggers the mitochondria in the neural tissue to produce more ATP. But the neural tissue is a little bit more sensitive to red light, near infrared light, far infrared light. So these are, these are spaced a little bit farther apart. It's a fantastic device though for anybody who kind of wants like a cup of coffee for their, for their brain in the morning. The full body red light treatments gold standard is 10 to 20 minutes as long as the device is sufficiently powerful, usually about six inches from the, from the bulbs that you're shining on your body. So 10 to 20 minutes every day, once you accept the reason you want to exceed that is you can actually get excess production of reactive oxygen species. You know, back to the concept of some inflammation being good, too much not. And so too much red light therapy in the same way that too much sunlight can cause burning or radiative damage to the skin is something that you'd want to avoid. But 10 to 20 minutes every single day you can do, you can do red light.

What about intracellularly? If you got too much of that.

Intracellularly, Too much red light?

Yeah.

You mean from, from like a tissue heating type of DNA damage standpoint? Yeah, like I, I don't think the tissue's heated enough in red light for that to occur, you'd have to get to a pretty hefty form of radiation, like a microwave radiation or possibly like, you know, an ultrasound to cause tissue damage. I don't think red light is, is of a strong enough intensity to cause that.

Okay. Is there any particular supplementation which you reckon would be good to reduce inflammation?

Well, a lot of these supplements that are anti inflammatory, they do include like the turmeric or curcuminoids I talked about earlier. There's also an extract of turmeric that's water soluble called turmerosaccharides that can be very, very effective and even easier on the stomach than straight up turmeric for inflammation. And then in addition to that high EPA DHA fish oil, that can be a good, good practice. A lot of the research for heart health says 1 to 2 grams. A lot of the athletes who I work with are people who I'm looking at. I want to help with inflammation. It's closer to 4 to 8 grams of fish oil. It's not super duper high dose, but two to three times the normal recommended dose of fish oil. And then one that flies under the radar that I think is really effective is proteolytic enzymes. Serrapeptase, trypsin, chymotrypsin, papain, bromelain. A lot of these enzymes that would normally be considered enzymes that you might take to digest food. They can also help to digest proteins in the body. They can help to quell inflammation, and those can also be really useful. And then one of the things that's been highly not recommended for athletes post training is high doses of vitamin C and high doses of vitamin E because they're some of the most potent anti inflammatory compounds that you can consume. And so doing something like regularly scheduled vitamin C iv, getting adequate vitamin E that's got a good vitamin E is it's important that you get a mix of tocopherols and tocotrienols and a lot of vitamin E products. They just have the mixed tocopherols. There's companies like Designs for Health, for example. I interviewed a vitamin E researcher from their organization named Dr. Barry Tan. And we got into this idea of certain natural compounds like the annatto plant, for example, being very, very high in these mixes of tocopherols and tocotrienols when it comes to vitamin E. So those are some of the things to think about when it comes to supplementation.

Would you say you're religious or spiritual or both?

Oh, yeah, both, Both, both, both, yeah.

So what got you into, I don't know, this journey of God.

I was born into a Christian family. My parents became Christians when they were adults and they raised us children as Christians. I really think that it wasn't until I was around 30, though, where I really understood what it meant to be able to dialogue with God, where I really understood how to just be silent and listen to the voice of God, to direct your thoughts and direct your actions. You know, it wasn't until later in life that I discovered the importance of the spiritual disciplines like meditation and silence and solitude and fasting and prayer and worship and even things like breath work, for example, that you can use to kind of enhance a spiritual experience. And it really took a long time for me to go from being like, the Christian who's like, yeah, I go to Sunday school and I believe in God and I sing the nice songs and Jesus loves me, you know, game over. And to become a person who feels as though, like, I can be in daily dialogue with God, I can cast all my burdens on a higher power. I can believe in the hope that there's a greater story written for my life. And all I need to do is wake up each day and do the very best job I can with whatever God has put upon my plate for the day. It's, you know, been a daily process of growing closer to God and understanding what it truly means to walk with God. Understand that, you know, because a lot of, like, Christians, for example, it's like, oh, I'm a Christian, so I don't go to hell. I'm afraid of going to hell. Well, that, honestly, is not enough motivation to keep you on the straight and narrow path, making the right choices, obeying God's law, etc. What it instead comes down to is a deep, deep love for your creator and a love for your ability to be able to wake up, work hard, and then just, like, savor all of God's blessings at the end of the day. And so when your heart is full of love, not just love for God, but love for all of your fellow human beings, every last cell in your body, all it craves to do is obey God's law. Like, follow the golden rules, follow the ten commandments, don't lie, don't covet, don't steal, don't sleep with your neighbor's wife. You know, all these things that normally if you're just not doing that stuff because you're like, I don't want to go to hell, that really doesn't enable you or equip you or empower you to be able to, to really be the type of person that God has called you to be. Instead, it's, oh my gosh, I love God so much. I love my creator so much. I'm waking up every day so grateful for this breath of air that I get to take and the next breath and the next breath and the food that I don't deserve, but I've got it anyways, and a job and money. And so when your heart is just full of gratefulness for what you've gotten, even though you didn't deserve it, and your heart is full of love for the Creator that generated your very existence, then all you want to do all day is basically be that person who ideally is impactful and helping out a lot of other people in the world because you're following God's law. And really the entire Bible comes down to two things. Love God and love other people. If you love God and love other people every day, then, you know, life becomes very, very magical, in my opinion. By the way, do you know what this is? So this is nettle. These seeds, these seeds, these nettle seeds. My apologies to anybody listening to the audio. They can't see it. But these nettle seeds, they sell for a bunch of money, you know, in stores. The testosterone enhancing supplement. And nettle is just the highest protein, highest nutrient density plant you can find. Like, you could literally pick this stuff and you could survive as if you were eating meat for a relatively long period of time just on nettle. It's an incredible plant. Oh, wow. Yeah, we do a lot of plant foraging at our house and I like to look at all the, all the indigenous plants when I'm walking around a new place.

That's awesome. That's awesome. Would you. Do you reckon that all religions can lead to a similar thing? Like.

Well, yeah, finding God. All religions can lead to, to finding God. The question is who that God is and whether the basis of that religion is founded upon you being able to do all the work to be a good person versus you saying, I can't do this on my own. I'm a fallen human being. I need the help of my Creator to be able to be who it is that the Creator has called me to be. And so when you ask that question and you step back and you look at, for example, a lot of the, the Abrahamic religions like Islam or Christianity, yeah, they certainly have the belief in one God. The difference with those religions is, of course, the presence or Absence of the Jesus component. Right. So this idea that, oh, a deity came down from heaven, became an actual creature, sacrificed himself so that we would be able to be saved, because there's no way we can be saved on our own. Whereas Buddhism might say, well, there's a fourfold path to enlightenment, and all you need to do is identify your attachments in life, release those attachments, and then eventually be reincarnated and become better and better and better and better with each new life cycle that you might go through. I realize it's a little bit of a bastardization, quick explanation of Buddhism, but the idea is, yeah, that's you doing it and it's your power and you're eventually becoming God, rather than just like casting all your cares on God and accepting that there's no way you can do it without being, as Christianity says, washed by the blood of Jesus. So I think that there are many paths to living a good life, and many religions lead to that path of good life. I think that the only way to eternal life, to eternal life, to actually being in heaven and existing for all eternity with God, which I think is just a wonderful existence. I think the only way to that is actually through Jesus Christ. And so it depends if you're asking, can you be a good person without necessarily being a Christian, yeah, you can. Can you gain eternal life? I actually don't think you can. Just because as a guy who goes to the handbook for my particular origin of the Bible, all I know is it says the only way to heaven is through Jesus. And so I can't say that I believe little bits of the Bible, but I don't believe other little bits. I just have to believe the whole thing is inspired by God.

That's really interesting because you have. You do have a lot of people that are trying to do great things, you know, like, I don't know, humanitarianism or whatever, different spiritual practices, but not necessarily.

Yeah, but they're not Christians. Yeah, right, exactly. And at the same time, like a lot of Christians, look at the Crusades, look at the, you know, the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. You know, there's a lot of failures of many religions, and Christianity certainly is not an exception. The idea of having some type of law, some type of moral order, some type of absolute morality is where you see a lot of benefits of many of these religions that have playbooks or guidebooks or rule books. Because I just, you know, I think about the worst thing is to say, hey, you. You believe what you want to believe, bro. Speak your truth. Which is very common these days. You don't want to offend people. We don't want to rub them the wrong way. But the problem with that approach is that if everybody speaks their truth, if everybody believes in what it is that they want to believe in, Well, I might say, you know, Roger, right now, what would really make me most happy is to, like, you know, grab you and hold a knife to your head and, like, shove your face in that pond and try to drown you. And you'd be like, no, no, no, that doesn't make me happy. And we'd stand there trying to figure out whose morals are absolutely correct. And certainly we have certain things that bring disgust up or that we might think, oh, I'd never, like, you know, stomp on a baby's head or whatever. But then if you actually look at human beings left to their own volition and human beings who kind of make whatever decisions that they think are right in the moment. Well, I mean, look at Nazi Germany, right? I mean, like, when left to their own volition, human beings are capable of not making the right choices in the absence of some type of a God or playbook or handbook that dictates here. Here is exactly what is right. Here's exactly what is wrong. Don't lie. Don't kill people. You know, don't covet. Like. And so I think that that's a really, really important part of religion, is it does provide you with a guidebook, you know, some. Some sense of absolute morality in terms of what is right, what is wrong with. Makes.

Makes sense. I need to read the Bible more. I used to go to church, but, yeah, that's. That's another subject.

Yeah.

So talking of books you read, I'm assuming you read quite a lot of books.

I do read a lot of books. All right, well, so I usually have a stack of books I'm working on. The. The upstairs bedroom is typically, like, nonfiction fun books, fiction books. Like right now, it's puzzler by A.J. jacobs, right. Where it's just like, a book about sudoku and crossword and Rubik's cubes, and it's got little puzzles at the end of each chapter. It's great for putting you to sleep because your brain's kind of like, oh, I can't do this anymore. And then you just kind of fall asleep. So up in the bedroom, it's all the fun books that kind of feel like a waste of time, but that you're able to read when you're just laying there getting ready for bed. And then I Typically have a handful of books I'm going through for people in. I'm going to interview for a podcast. I never took a speed reading course. You know, I have a certain method of getting through the books. I scan the table of comments. I, I scan the back of the book, the front of the book. I flip through to see how the chapters are structured. And then I start in and I just basically trace with my finger. But, and I've just taught myself kind of like when you listen to an audiobook at one and a half times speed, then you get pretty good at 1.8 and then 2, and eventually, before you know it, you're absorbing information at 3x speed. Right? And so, so reading is kind of like that. It's a muscle. And so the other thing that I do is I'll listen to a lot of audiobooks again, typically at like two and a half, three times speed. I rarely listen to music when I'm working out. It's almost always audiobooks when I'm working out, unless it's just a gut wrenching, difficult workout. So, yeah, I'll listen to audio books a lot. I'm reading a book a lot. I'll use the Kindle Whisper Sync a lot where when I stop reading on the Kindle, say on the airplane as I'm walking through, through the airport, I can continue listening where I left off. And then when I get back on the next plane, keep reading on the Kindle. And so huge, huge amount of book consumption only for me, but for my family. My sons know that basically if they ever ask for a book, there's not many things I'll just buy for them, hands down. But if they ever want a book, I just, I buy it for them. You know, I assign them a book every week for which they need to write a book report. So I'm teaching them how to read a lot of books at an early age, how to, how to write something about that book and demonstrate that they've learned something from it. And I think that's also important is, you know, whenever I'm reading a book, I take all the notes. And at the very, very end, whether it's a Kindle book with the highlights or whether it's a regular book where I've circled stuff, folded over pages, et cetera, I do one last review of the whole book so that there's any major takeaways, steps of action, like, oh, I actually need to set up an appointment with this person I read about in the book, or this is a product that I actually want to buy and try, try. Then by the time I've made it through the book, I'll then review and take any action steps that I've highlighted that I need to take in the book. And then there's one other interesting thing. There's a lot of these services that will give you book summaries and I love them like Blinkist or Thinker or Philosopher's Notes. I use a lot of those services because there's certain books that I am interested in, but not so interested in that I want to read the whole thing. So I'll do the quick 20 minute PDF or audio digestion of the book, but the interesting one is called Readwise. And Readwise will sync with all your Kindle highlights and then send you an email each week or each day with a few your highlights from the Kindle books that you've read recently or that have been your favorites. And so it kind of allows you to revisit the books and automates the process of you being reminded of important things that you found in the books.

That's so awesome. I love that.

Yeah, it's a cool little app.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's that blink thing?

So the ones that I use, I would say that the top ones that I use for book summaries would be Philosopher's Notes run by a guy named Brian Johnson. That's got about 500 books on it. Really good short PDF summary and audio summary of each book, Thinker, which is an app. Those books tend to be largely kind of like more political and a lot of times more conservative and libertarian leaning books. It's kind of like my political leaning anyways. And so I like Thinker for some of my political and economics based book summaries. Then a couple others are Blinkist, which does really, really great book summaries. There's two people who I follow online, one guy named Derek Sivers and one guy named James Clear. And both Derek and James do really, really good book summaries on their websites, which again helps me decide if I am or am not going to read a book. And so those are a few of like the book Digest book, book summary type of resources that I use.

That's awesome. What would you say are your five, five top books that you'd recommend on subjects like mental agility. Emotional. Emotional intelligence.

Yeah.

Finance.

Oh gosh.

Spirituality. Just like, you know, a diversity of books, I think.

You know, I've got a lot of bookshelves in my home and those bookshelves are all labeled. I actually had a librarian come through and you know, spirituality, health, fitness, anatomy, you know, science, religion, et cetera. And then they're all organized by authors last name. So, you know, I literally have hundreds and hundreds of books, probably thousands at this point in my personal library. And I don't even know how many on Kindle, but the one shelf in my office is books I want to return to, like books I want to read again. And inevitably one or two extra books get added to that shelf each year. But there's probably about 30 books on that shelf and a few ones of note that I think are super beneficial. Charlie Munger's Poor Charlie's Almanac for understanding human cognitive biases and mental models. For understanding why humans might attribute a greater degree of credibility to someone in a position of authority than is really the case in terms of the existence of that credibility or why certain human beings will assume themselves to be far more efficient or proficient or intelligent around any given activity than they actually are. Or the reason that humans will see price anchoring such as something very expensive anchored next to something very cheap. And all of a sudden it will make the, the less expensive things seem even less expensive. You know, just all these little mental models and cognitive biases. So Poor Charlie's Almanac is fantastic for understanding people. There's another one that I would say comes to mind. Stillness is the Key by Ryan Holiday for having a more stoic and a more peaceful existence and peaceful approach to life. You know, I really like some of Ryan Holiday's work. He's probably better known for books like Obstacles the Way. But Stillness is the Key I think is one of his best works for introducing more peace and stillness into one's life. I think that a couple other good ones in some of the sectors. You talked about Ray Dalio's Principles as a business based book. Both his book Principles and then a similar book called Rocket Fuel which allows a CEO like me to better interact with the members of my organization and understand how to, how to implement my vision. I would say both Rocket Fuel and Principles have been really, really good in the, in the business side of things. I would say for financial, there's a book called what Would the Rockefellers Do? And that's an amazing book because, you know, for. I'm a big believer in legacy, right? I'm not raising my children, I'm raising my children's children and my children's children's children. And we have a Greenfield family playbook and Greenfield family family values and a Greenfield family crest and you know, a logo and family T shirts and hats and hoodies and this deep, deep sense of belonging and pride and legacy in terms of what it means to be a greenfield. But as a part of that, we also have a family trust, we have a family constitution, we have a family bank in place. So generational wealth is distributed in the proper way amongst subsequent generations. And again, it's like a guidebook for the family. And all of this are habits that you think of like great families. I'm just going to use us examples. But if you look at like, I don't know, the, the Bush family or the Rockefeller family or the Clinton family, you know, a lot of these families, how that family become like so great, so powerful, so wealthy, so impactful. Well, in many cases this is how they set up their families. A real, real legacy based approach to, to building a family. And so that's another one. And then I would say say if I could name one more, I think that, you know, one of the early nutrition books that I read that I think really helped me wrap my head around something we talked about earlier, the dangers of seed oils, the subtle nuances between fats, the importance of fat, and just generally gave me a real, real good nutritional philosophy. It was early on in my nutrition studies, but it made a real, real impact on me was Deep Nutrition by Kate Shanahan. Really, really good, kind of ancestrally based nutrition book. So I'd say deep nutrition. And that was my problem when I wrote my book Boundless. Like if you read that book carefully, you wind up buying like 30 other books. Because I read so much and I say throughout the book, oh well, go read this book, go read this book. Oh, this book talks more about this. This book talks. So I consider one of my jobs to be just like reading books and based on what I've read, telling other people what they should read.

I got Boundless and I just, I got lost. At the same time I felt like I was going to fall in depression. I was like, this book is deep.

That's one that you need a book summary for. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm working on another one right now called Boundless Parenting where I'm interviewing all these amazing parents from around the world and getting all their advice on parenting and legacy and family and some of the concepts we were just talking about all the way down to kids nutrition and fitness, to building legacy and right now, you know, because for me it's usually about a three year process to write a book. So that one's at about 1400 pages right now of material and eventually, you know, when I get all the information closer to 2,000 pages, then I cut all that down, I edit it, I decide which babies I'm gonna kiss goodbye to, and eventually, you know, put it into a book. But I do like to write big comprehensive books when I can, much to the chagrin of my publisher.

I love the idea of the kids one. I did get one by Robert T. Kiyosaki, although he does one on, you know, he does it on finances.

Yeah, Rich Dad, Poor dad.

Yes. Yeah, correct.

Yeah.

He also has one for children. So, yeah, I think, like, if you can, if people do more for children, I think that would, it would just start off the world in a better place.

That's, that's the foundation of everything. By the way, Rich Dad, Poor dad also has the Cash Flow game, which is a great. We play a lot of board games with big family dinners each night. And a lot of the games that I'll choose are games that I want to use to teach my kids important life principles. Like there's a fold out game called Rhetoric where you learn how to give impromptu speeches or persuade people. Or there's games like Boggle or Scrabble that teach a child how to spell and how to build up their vocabulary. Or there's other games like exploding kittens or unstable unicorns that teach kids logic and if this, then that type of stuff, sequential thinking. And so we're a big fan of games. That Cash Flow game is one that's fantastic for finances, you know, that and playing Monopoly intentionally and mindfully and understanding what it means to mortgage and what it means to be in debt and what it means to have assets, you know, big fan of that stuff. But the question about the children, you know, not only is the way that we, the way that we affect change in society always starts from the ground up, right? It always starts with the kids. And so if you've got a bunch of kids, you know, such as, I don't know, in the case of America's educational system, you know, lining up in a row, putting a square peg in a square hole, a round peg in a round hole, learning at the same pace of the rest of the classroom, getting exposed to peer pressure and bullying, eventually being taught things, you know, about like being ashamed of your, your skin color or hating the country that you live in because of certain things that's done. You have kids that grow up, in my opinion, just basically really wired up the wrong way. They're not like, at least in America, I'm noticing the upcoming generation, they're not creative, free thinking, resilient people with patriotic pride and pride about who they are and their own identity, whether socially or racially or politically. Kids are just basically, they're not marching to the beat of their own drum. They're instead just swallowing hook, line and sinker what they're taught in a modern education system. And then you look at kids who are homeschooled or unschooled and they're engaging a lot of creative free thinking and problem solving and experiential based learning and hands on education. And I'm just more impressed with that group of kids painting with a broad brush from the children that I've hung around with. And so as parents, we must realize that if we're going to complain about the way the society is going, we're going to complain about politics, we're going to complain about the way things are, we have to think very long term, we have to think, okay, how do I change this? Yeah, I can go and vote, I can go and lobby, I can go and protest, I can go and affect change socially. But the number one thing you can do is train the next generation not to make the same mistakes that you made. Train the next generation to be better people, train the next generations to be subscribed subsequently better and better and better. And you know, for me personally, I've realized that no matter what I do from a business standpoint, no matter what cool places I go to and travel or amazing people I get to talk to or money that's made or anything like that, it's very, very hard for me to be happy unless everything is just amazing at home. I pour a lot of energy into making sure my wife and I are always on the same page. There's radical transparency and radical honesty. And I eye gaze with my sons and spend both time with them one on one. And then also together we have big family dinners. I pour a ton of energy into making sure I have a really strong, stable, happy nuclear family unit. Because everything else in life, very similar to the idea of how loving God and loving others does, this becomes a lot more magical when you realize the importance of family as a foundation and the great responsibility and the honor that comes with raising up the next generation to not make the same mistakes.

That's powerful. So that is amazing. I love that. I love that. Yeah. You know, sometimes I do question why relationships break, break so soon. You got people who have a pattern of relationship break that like their relationship lasts for like a year or two years.

And I'm thinking, yeah, well, I can tell you why, why that primarily is. I mean, it started to be an issue when humans began like serial dating, right? Like I'm date this person, I'm going to dump him if I don't like him and try this person on for size, maybe see what it's like to have sex with that person. See what it's like to have sex with this person. And so what happens is that conditions you to almost have an unfamiliarity with what it means to be happy and stable with one person, person, just because you spend your entire teenage years engaged in a serial dating type of, type of existence. Whereas, you know, in, in, I think a more appropriate turn on the other side in a more appropriate scenario, basically, you know, you'd see like, like a man would, would, would court a woman for a long period of time and be with her family and get to know her sometimes for years. And there's eventually marry and maybe they hadn't had 20 or 30 partners before they got married. My wife had no partners before we got married. I had had maybe five or six girlfriends. But then you introduced Tinder and swiping and online dating apps and the ability to be able to move, move, move through people and swipe, swipe, swipe through multiple people and then pornography, where you can engage in a sexual relationship with sometimes up to, you know, 100 women within 20 minutes. And we create a scenario in which human beings are kind of conditioned to be in serial relationships, polygamous relationships, polyamorous relationships versus embracing the stability and happiness and societal order that can be derived from monogamy, from being happy with one person, from learning how to love someone no matter what, learning how to sacrifice yourself for someone no matter what. Understanding that a relationship is not just about how good the sex is with that person, but how good the friendship and love and relationship and spiritual sacred connection to that person is. And once you start to look at your fellow human beings back to loving God and loving other people fully as sacred souls, it's very, very difficult to like, you know, for a guy to go to a bar, get drunk, pick up a girl who's also drunk, go home, sleep with her, and then just like say goodbye the next day. Because it basically objectifies a person as a carnal, fleshly object that's purely there for pleasuring versus a person who's a sacred soul who you're going to go on to live with for all of eternity. How would you treat that person if you actually knew that was going to be the case? And how would you act differently around people if you really did recognize them as sacred souls that you will live with for eternity.

Wow, that's super powerful. You know, that made me think about a post I've done one time, and I asked people, what's your thoughts on unconditional love? Is there anyone that you love unconditionally? And then when I started to think about it myself, I thought, there seems to be a lot of conditions on why we love people. And it made me question, does anyone love anyone unconditionally? I mean, you mentioned about Jesus, and he's the only person I know who actually does.

It's impossible. Yeah, it's impossible unless you're perfect, to love anyone unconditionally. And that's kind of back to what I was explaining before. If you try to love someone unconditionally, you can't do it of your own power. You're just a fallen human being, a broken human being. It's impossible to truly purely love someone unconditionally in the same way that's impossible to go through your entire life without missing the mark, without sinning in some way. But when you rely upon the grace of God, and you say, I can't do this, but you're on your knees every morning praying, hey, Jesus, give me the power to, you know. And that's part like, I say a prayer in the morning when I'm swimming in my pool. I say, our Father art in heaven, please turn me into the Father and husband who you would have for me to be, into a man who will fulfill your great commission and remove from me all judgments of others. Grab me your heavenly wisdom, remove from my worldly temptations, teach me how to listen to your spill, small voice in the silence, and fill me with your peace, your love, and your joy. Amen. So I say that prayer every morning, but a part of it is, remove from me all judgments of others, because I tend to be a judgmental person, especially coming from a fitness background. I'm fitter than you, I look better than you with my shirt off. I can play better sports than you. I could kick your butt, you know, if we were. If we were in some kind of a foot race. And so, you know, you tend to start to size up people, you know, especially when you're in fitness and you're in health and, oh, look at that person. They're eating Cheetos. No good. They don't even know they're stupid. But once you're on your knees every day asking for help, to be able to love people no matter what it does become a lot easier. You're never going to be able to do it fully, unconditionally until, I mean, once you die and you go to heaven and you're perfect, I'm sure. But, yeah, it should be a goal and it should be something that you actually beg God to give you the ability to do each day. Because obviously, if you're going to live your life by the mantra of loving God and loving others, then you should be loving God unconditionally, right? Whether rain or sunshine, whether your house burns down or you lose your partner or what. And you should be loving people unconditionally, whether they treat you shitty or whether they're not the same type of person as you with the same political beliefs or the same tendencies. Doesn't matter. You love people unconditionally. But you're right, it's very difficult to actually pull that off.

How did you come up with Kion? Like, where did the vision start? To where it is right now.

So, Keon, it was kind of funny because I actually. I don't know if I've told this story before in a podcast. I may have, but there was one year in Kauai that I kind of took a heroic dose of psilocybin on the beach, and I was with some other people, and they were all just kind of. They were talking with each other and laughing and joking. I was like, this is. Is not the context I want to be in. So I wandered down the beach and just spent like four hours sitting on a log and I was thinking and I was journaling and I was writing and I was just looking at the sky and kind of in deep introspection in a state that's sometimes more difficult to get into without the help of some type of plant that shifts your ego in a different direction, you know? And I don't think you should use plant medicines as like an oracle, you know, and say, like, oh, the only way I'm going to know what God is telling me is to take a bunch of magic mushrooms. But no, to instead to just kind of shift your thinking a different way. The same way you might have a cup of coffee before you go do some deep work in writing. And so, you know, I got to thinking while I was. While I was there about how I had really been craving to create something that was bigger than just me, to create something that could help people whether or not they knew who Ben Greenfield was or whether they read my books or anything like that. Like, I wanted to create something, you know, I think that God as a creator made us in his image. And we human beings, we crave to create something, whether it's a story or a piece of art or an invention or maybe Elon Musk, it's a tunnel under LA or a Tesla or you know, in my case it was like, it was like, I want to create something like nourishing and healthy and some type of a supplement. And so at the time I had been, I'd been partnering with a lot of different supplement companies as like an affiliate, you know, representing their product. I was an athlete, I was racing all over the world and kind of pimping other people's products, so to speak. And I decided, you know, I'm just going to make my own stuff. I make my own stuff. And so, you know, met up with a wonderful friend and the CEO of Keon now, my co founder, Angelo Keeley. He's a fantastic guy and we just get along so well. And we just decided we wanted to start a company where every single ingredient was sourced as high quality as possible. Even if that meant that we had limited supply of some of the stuff that we wanted to produce. Nothing, nothing in any product that doesn't have human clinical research behind it in terms of efficacy and the exact amounts necessary. No fairy dusting, no proprietary formulas. We wanted to target the things people really need. We didn't want some fringe, like, I don't know, intra workout booster. We wanted like immune system, gut recovery, stress sleep, you know. And then of course we do like a bar, we do a coffee. But you know, my, what I love about that company is I can, you know, I'm always reading the books, talking to the people, finding interesting people, learning about new ingredients and then I get to sit down and say, okay, this would be cool to actually put together a product. And Angelo and I will have these phone calls where we're spitting back and forth in ingredients and setting stuff up and you know, we just launched a new sleep product that most of this stuff is for me to scratch my, my own itch. Like I struggle with sleep and the Kion sleep just all of a sudden just crushed sleep for me, you know, Or I really wanted a clean energy bar that didn't freeze when I was in the mountains or milked when I was on a bike ride. So I developed the Kion clean energy bar. I love coffee, but I want a really clean coffee. So we have like this, you know, organic decaf and regular coffee. It's, it's fantastic tasting coffee, like a healthy coffee that tastes good and so, so yeah, it's just, it's just been a progression over the years. But it started with me literally like being on the beach and thinking, gosh, I need to do something that's not just about me.

Right, right. That's phenomenal. I mean, I use all the Kion products myself. I noticed that the serum, the skin serum has been removed.

Oh yeah, the skin serum. That's actually something that is now run under the name Greenfield Botanics. It's my aunt's company. So we, we just decided to shift the serum production over to her. So yeah, you can still get it from Greenfield Botanics but it's not under Kion anymore. So she does like a serum and a facial spray as well now.

I'll go check that out. So what's the future of Kion then?

You'd say, oh, Kion, we're going to continue to develop a lot of cool new products, but we're really looking at now like functional foods. Like how could we do like a gelatin based bone broth, good tasting energy bar or how could we create something that gives you the nostalgic flavor of like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and some type of like a, like a smoothie or a powder, you know. We're continuing to refine our aminos, which is probably our top selling supplements like the Swiss army knife for recovery, for fasting, for muscle building, for sleep. The aminos are fantastic. Like one little scoop is like eating half a steak. And so yeah, we're just continuing to develop and refine and also going after probably in the near future some more kind of like comfort food esque type of foods.

I like that. Yeah, I like that. I could ask a ton more questions, but I think we covered a lot already.

We did, we did go through a lot and gosh, we got, we got our step count in too, huh?

Yeah. I don't normally walk this much, to be honest with you.

Oh yeah. Even as a bodybuilder you do a lot of like the aerobic cardio like when you're cutting.

You mentioned kettlebells. I do some kettlebells and battle rope and swing some power bags around. But actual steps itself, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't really mount up.

Yeah, it's funny, I didn't do a lot of walking around as bodybuilding, but I was a spin instructor. Right. So like three or four times a week. I was like hardcore in the bike high intensity interval training which is actually great for the quad development as well. So that was, that was what I did was spinning, but yeah, so I've got. I guess I got. I gotta literally run back to my hotel from here and get on an airplane and head back to the States. But that was pretty fun.

Oh, awesome, man. Now, thank you very much. When are you next in uk, do you know?

I don't know. I made a lot of fantastic connections when I was here on this trip in all sorts of biohacking facilities like London Cryo and Belasel and H2MN and a lot of amazing people. Tim Gray, the guy who put on this Health Optimization summit, he's just doing a really great job. So I think hopefully I'll definitely be here for next year's Health Optimization summit, but we'll see from there. It's. It's not too long of a flight, but it's enough to have to have a really good excuse to come over, you know.

You've also been interviewed by Jack Chimmer.

Yeah, yeah. JAG runs the, like, the superhuman biohacking type of centers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Good friend of mine, yeah, he and Chris Gethin and I did a tour of India where we did a bunch of biohacking workshops and stuff across India. So, yeah, he's a great guy too.

So, yeah, happy. Have you been to the Superhuman?

Not yet, but I am gonna try and help JAG develop, like, some of his IV and cocktail, like, infusion menus for that. So we're talking. We're talking. So. All right, well, let me see. I should probably press off on the microphone so I can pull up my locations and start jogging, but anything else you want to say while the mic's hot?

I think I'm good.

All right.

I'm good. Thanks a lot, Ben. Really appreciate your time, man. Yeah, definitely want to get a training session in. Next time you're here, we'll do it.

I'll crush you, man. I'll crush you. We'll do. We'll do ARM Day. More than ever these days. People like you and me need a fresh, entertaining, well informed, and often outside the box approach to discovering the health and happiness and hope that we all crave. So I hope I've been able to do that for you on this episode today. And if you liked it or if you love what I'm up to, then please leave me a review on your preferred podcast listening channel, wherever that might be, and just find the Ben Greenfield Life episode. Say something nice. Thanks so much. Means a lot.