Constipation, Fecal Transplants, Fiber Myths, Resistant Starch, Probiotics & More With Konstantin Monastyrsky.

Hello, this is Ben Greenfield, and in today's podcast episode, we're going to talk all about poop and fiber and some very controversial topics regarding the skin of your vegetables. In this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Show.

Colonic bacteria, I mean the true one, innate one, human ones, they reside in the mucosal membrane of the large intestine. They do not reside inside the lumen, meaning the cavity of the large intestine. And so they draw all their nutrients that they need from mucus. A fiber would even reach them if it would be there. When I look at it as a forensic nutritionist, I ask myself a question. In what way? A substance that is completely indigestible, that is technically a cellulose, essentially the same substance as toilet paper, in what way it can prevent heart attack? Or in what way it can make a person more predisposed to heart attack? No, it can't.

He's an expert in human performance and nutrition, voted America's top personal trainer and one of the globe's most influential people in health and fitness. His show provides you with you need to optimize physical and mental performance. He is Ben Greenfield.

Power, speed, mobility, balance, whatever it is for you, that's the natural movement. Get out there. When you look at all the studies done, studies that have shown the greatest efficacy.

All the information you need in one place right here, right now on the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast.

Hey, folks, it's Ben Greenfield. And several podcast episodes ago, we tackled a really tricky and pretty confusing topic with a doctor who has a somewhat long name that I'm going to try not to butcher here, Dr. Konstantin Monastirsky. And in that episode with Konstantin, which was called how much fiber to eat, where to get your fiber, and is fiber really killing your insides? Konstantin and I covered several topics including why it is that doctors tell us to eat plenty of fiber and the things that doctors don't really know or realize about fiber intake. When it gets too high, we talked about how much fiber is too much and how that varies from person to person. We talked about the difference between using lots of fruits and vegetables versus just say, a high fiber cleansing supplement. We talked about the truth behind dangerous laxatives and also what someone with constipation can do if high fiber intake and laxatives aren't the solution. And a lot more. Now, if you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com FiberMyth that's BenGreenfieldFitness.com fibermyth I'll link to that original podcast episode that I did with Konstantin. But that particular episode generated so many dozens and dozens of questions and comments that I decided in today's episode to bring Konstantin back. And in this episode, we're gonna delve into all of the nitty gritty questions that came up during that episode about, you know, why it is that we talk about reducing fiber intake and how much fruits and vegetables and insoluble fiber you really need. And then we're going to also talk about resistant starch, constipation, fecal transplants, more about fiber myth, probiotics, and a whole lot more. So if you're interested even remotely in the gut fiber, fruits, vegetables, probiotics, things along those lines, then you're definitely going to want to keep listening. Now, who is Konstantin? Well, he graduated in 1977 from Medical University with a pharmacy degree. He's a certified nutrition consultant. He's an expert in forensic nutrition, which is a field of science that looks at the connection between health foods and nutrition related disorders like diabetes and obesity and gut issues like constipation. Now, he actually emigrated originally from Ukraine to the United States and has worked as a programmer. He's worked at some different Wall street firms. Now he runs the website Fiber Myths, which we'll link to in the show notes. He's got a book also called the Fiber Menace. And he certainly done a lot of investigation and research into everything from nutritional interventions to extremely unorthodox thinking when it comes to how to tackle issues like constipation or irritable bowel syndrome or anything that has to do with the gut. So, Konstantin, welcome back to the show.

Ben, thank you so much for such a wonderful introduction. Your rate of speech and everything that you do is just absolutely stunning. I am a great student of yours.

I'm all about the super long introductions we have to establish the credibility.

I do appreciate it.

So anyways, let's start here. You have an article and I'm going to link to it in the show notes over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com FiberMyth. The article is called Is Fiber Bad for your? And in that article and also in the podcast that you did with me earlier, you discussed how you don't endorse eating the skins of vegetables and fruits. You even talk about how you will remove the skin from vegetables and fruits prior to eating them. Now, we received plenty of comments from folks who asked about the insoluble fiber that you could be missing out on. And also a lot of the other benefits that people will say are in the skin of Fruits and vegetables, for example. Many people who I know do indeed peel fruits and vegetables before eating them. But some folks will say that you miss out on the pigments in the skin, which are a potentially beneficial source of phytochemicals. And of course, you miss out on the insoluble fiber. You miss out, for example, if you peel an apple on the pectin, which is not an insoluble fiber, but a soluble fiber that you know can help, for example, control blood sugar. You miss out on some of the antioxidants. With a potato, I know things like iron and potassium and B vitamins can be found in the skin. And so when you remove the skin, I do know that you miss out on quite a few things. And then there's also the idea behind the fact that there's even a hormetic effect with some of these foods, like the skin of, you know, something like a potato that contains some alkaloids which are potential, you know, slight digestive irritants may, via this hormetic effect, somehow make the digestive tract even stronger. So when it comes to all these things that folks might miss out on if they don't eat this skin, what's your take on that?

Well, let's start from the very beginning. What is the skin of a vegetable or what is the skin of a fruit? It is essentially a cellulose. And what is its function? Let's look at potatoes. The function of the skin of a potato is to protect potato while it is in ground from pests. So that's why so many pesticides are used while growing our vegetables. And one of the particular, very unpleasant property of potatoes is their incredible toxicity. I mean, you know, well, when potatoes begin to. What's it called? When they start to. In storage, there is a little growth of. I mean, they become very toxic. And so. And why? Well, the reason for all this toxicity is to protect the potato while it's in the ground. And it is well known that among all the fruits and vegetables, there are two the most allergenic, hyper hyper allergenic vegetables and hypoallergenic fruits. The most hypoallergenic vegetable is potatoes. And the most hypoallergenic fruit is. Or actually it's a berry. Well, fruit is orange. And there is also a berry, strawberries. So if we know that potatoes are so allergenic, if we know that the surface of potatoes with a greenish cast is toxic, if we know that the bush of potato, if you just broil it, boil it and eat it, it's A poisonous toxic as anything else that you can get there, and it can get you killed. Why would, in a sound mind, we would consume something that is specifically intended by nature to protect the core of the potato from pests? I mean, I think it's insane. And if you look at cultures that have culinary cultures, you look at Italy, you look at France in some way, you look at the UK you look at Russia, you look at Eastern Europe. Potatoes were never consumed with skin. Skins were always thrown away. At best, they were used as a feed for livestock, cows, but not for people.

Gotcha.

But when it comes to something like.

That, isn't there kind of this idea that the dose makes the poison? I mean, when you look at the glycoalkaloids in potato skin, I mean, they're undoubtedly toxic at high doses. I would agree with you that they have been shown to cause many harmful effects in animals and humans, and especially in people who are sensitive to nightshades. But if you look at studies in, for example, animals that eat potatoes, you don't see, in moderated amounts a huge amount of damage in terms of gut inflammation when it comes to potato intake and the skin of potato intake in normal, sane amounts. Isn't there an idea here that it would be potato or potato skins in high amounts that would be an issue and not say, for example, you know, let's say if you were going to eat like a sweet potato, eating the skin of a single sweet potato.

Well, if you're healthy, no, there will be no damage. But we are primarily, when we talk about nutrition, we talk for two reasons. One is to protect disease. And the second one is for people who are having problems with digestion in general and all colorectal disorders. And the problem is, especially here in the United States, is that people always say, well, there is no such a thing as, you know, too little of a good thing. So when somebody hears that potato skins are good for health because they contain fiber or phytochemicals or antioxidants, they start to double up, triple up, quadruple up. But they already have problems. So when they start on that pass, it does become toxic, and that's what the problem is.

Okay, gotcha. Yeah. And I do know that there's one research study that they did that showed that glycoalkaloids that you'd find in potato skins aggravate inflammatory bowel disease. Granted, this study was done in mice that were genetically predisposed to inflammatory bowel disease. But it sounds like what it comes down to is that if you Are someone who's listening right now, who has gut issues, and you're eating something like a potato or a nightshade, like, let's say, an eggplant or a tomato, it would be prudent to not eat the skin to peel those now. But what about the insoluble fiber? For example, even this morning with my breakfast, I had a few blueberries. When I eat an apple, I eat the skin, for example, to get the pectin and to get the insoluble fiber. Why is it that? Well, let me ask the question this way. Aren't people missing out on insoluble fiber that can be beneficial for the digestive tract if they're not eating the skin of a fruit or vegetable?

Not really. Because again, if we will look at evolution of nutrition or evolutionary nutrition, people in general were not consuming fruits and vegetables because they were available only in a very, very short season. They were not tasty because they were not cultivated. They were not as sweet as they are today, and they had a very limited storage capacity. So even if, at best, let's say, gatherers would consume fruits and vegetables, primarily fruits, because it was very hard to dig or preserve them, it was a very, very short period of time when they were available. And so that's the reason why mammals have alimentary canal, meaning from mouse to the anus, very different from the elementary canal of, let's say, herbivorous animals such as cows and goats and so forth and so on. Their digestion is built on fermentation. Our digestion is built first. And the very first digestive organs that we have, following the mouse and esophagus, is a stomach. And the stomach is an organ which only produces gastric acid and proteolytic enzymes. And they cannot deal with fiber soluble or insoluble. They can only deal with proteins. The stomach doesn't even deal with fat. The stomach doesn't absorb water. The stomach does nothing but prepares, performs several functions, sterilizes foods, warms them up, stores them if they're in excess, and digests proteins and everything else then takes place in the small intestine. And so if you consume something like soluble fiber, I'm sorry, insoluble fiber, which is insoluble, meaning it's a cellulose, meaning it will go from your mouth to your anus to your toilet bowl intact, just like a piece of paper.

But isn't the idea behind that insoluble fiber passing through your digestive system intact is that it can, for example, decrease the glycemic response to food or lower the blood sugar response to food or assist with digestion or even, for example, allow for a certain amount of fermentation, which would allow like good bacteria to be able to eat it and multiply it or to increase stool bulk, for example. I mean, aren't there some benefits? I mean, I even know, for example, that there's some evidence that shows that insoluble fiber may promote, for example, like the peristaltic action in the gut so that it could help you to eliminate your stool. I mean, are you saying that there's absolutely no benefit to insoluble fiber or that too much insoluble fiber may cause issues?

Well, there isn't any benefit, period. And the only issue assumptions that you mentioned that was correct is that in insoluble fiber will stimulate colonic bacteria. But this is not good also for many reasons, because colonic bacterias, I mean the true one, innate one, human ones, they reside in the mucosal membrane of the large intestine. They do not reside inside the lumen, meaning the cavity of the large intestine. And so they draw all their nutrients that they need from mucus. A fiber wouldn't even reach them if it would be there. And so when we keep adding fiber to the large intestine, all we accomplish is appendicitis, inflammatory bowel disease, irritable bowel syndrome, bulking of the stools. Because of the bulking of the stools, we start to strain. Because we start to strain, we develop the narrowing of anal canal. Because we develop the narrowing of anal canal, we develop enlarged hemorrhoids. And then because we develop enlarged hemorrhoids, we develop anal fissures.

Now, is there evidence? I mean, so what you'll generally see in nutrition is the recommendation for somewhere in the range of 20 to 40 grams of fiber from a variety of sources each day, like vegetables or fruits or legumes or grains. Are you saying that these type of deleterious effects would occur with that amount of fiber intake or with an amount of fiber intake that exceeds 40 grams? And the reason I ask this is because I haven't seen a lot of research that shows the development of things like appendicitis or diverticulitis with, with what I would consider to be like a normal sane amount of fruit and vegetable intake.

It's generally accepted, accepted that American, on average western diet involves about 15 to 20 grams of fiber, soluble and insoluble.

Right?

And when I wrote my book, the very first phrase, the very first paragraph says there is absolutely no problem with consuming normal diet in moderation, because our body is perfectly equipped to deal with that. But now we have medical bodies that promote fiber as a laxative, which is actually against the law. Back in 2001, FDA, the FDA prohibited to promote fiber as a laxative. That's why if you go into a drugstore, you will see that it's sold for. To reduce cholesterol, which is also a lie. It doesn't do it. But anyways, that's how they do it. So fiber will have absolutely no effect, positive effect on peristalsis. It will not have a positive effect on digestion. It will not have a positive effect on assimilation. It will not have a positive effect on blocking, reducing a glycemic index of what you consume. It can't. The processes, physiological processes are going in the gut, in the small intestine, particularly when it comes to diabetes. They are governed by the use of enzymes and everything is taking place on a cellular level. So when medical authorities fraudulently imply that fiber can reduce a glycemic index of any particular food or any particular diet, this assumption is based on the fact that excessive fiber, not regular, not normal amount, excessive amount, will cause enteritis, the inflammation of the small intestine. And when your small intestine is inflamed, what's the next thing is happening? Nothing. Foods don't get digestion.

And what would you consider to be an amount of fiber that would cause that type of inflammation in the gut? Like an amount that exceeds 40 grams?

It depends on the person, it depends on the type of the fiber.

And when you say it depends on the type of the fiber, are you saying it depends on whether the fiber is soluble versus insoluble?

That is correct. Paradoxically, soluble fiber, because it's allergenic and because also it's hydrophobic and because it has some other side effects, and because also it is such a great feat for pathogenic as well as good bacteria, it's actually far more toxic and far more inflammatory for the small and large intestines than insoluble fiber, which is more or less inert, not completely.

Okay. And soluble fiber would be what we would get from like a very high amount of like pectins from apple skin or. I know that guar gum is something that you'll find as an additive and that irritates people a lot of the time. Psyllium seed, that's soluble, correct?

Exactly. Yes.

And that's something that I personally have tried laxatives that have psyllium seed in them and have found for myself and for many folks I've talked to, that that in high amounts can be very irritable to the digestive tract. So you're saying that soluble fiber would be something to be careful with, especially in high amounts, whereas insoluble fiber. And can you give me an example of a few good sources of insoluble fiber?

There are really no good sources. I mean, insoluble fiber is just unsellable fiber. So bran is like the most prominent, meaning insoluble. I mean, what makes the seed whole? And so. So bran is a prototypical example of. Of insoluble fiber, which I would suggest to stay away from in any skins. But okay, really, in small amounts, it does nothing. It simply just passes through.

And it would be like what you'd find in grains and brans and wheats and things like that. The insoluble fiber.

Yep. Apes, whatever.

Yeah, gotcha. Okay, so as far as the soluble versus insoluble fiber, basically at this point, what we've come to the conclusion of is that excessive intake of that basically the idea that you simply can't do too much of, like vegetables and brans and legumes and grains and fruits, is a fruit flawed idea. We've established that for some people, especially people who have irritable bowel issues or digestive issues, eating too many potatoes or tomatoes or nightshades is going to be an issue. The skin of those eating too much insoluble fiber and especially too much soluble fiber could certainly be an issue. And this is a perfect lead in to a recent study. There was a study, and I'll link to it in the show notes, entitled Stopping or reducing Dietary fiber intake Reduces constipation and constipation's Associated symptoms. And this study went into the fact that lower fiber intake, to back up what you're saying, in many cases may actually be helpful. Now, my question for you is, and I know that lower fiber intake is often recommended for acute irritable bowel disorder, and for many cases of. For example, there's another issue called small intestine bacterial overgrowth, or sibo, in which people are often given the recommendation to reduce their intake of things like resistant starches and high amounts of fiber from fruits and vegetables. But if someone has a healthy GI tract and doesn't actually have any issues with constipation or with SIBO or with ibd, wouldn't they be able to tolerate a higher fiber intake?

They may. They may not. But why? To experiment. I mean, if you are healthy, if everything works like a clockwork, don't experiment. There is really no point. I mean, can a healthy person tolerate 4 liters of water a day? Absolutely. She or he can. Does it make sense? Because everybody's saying you have to drink more water. No, it doesn't. Because, I mean, drinking too much water will also lead to certain side effects. Same thing with fiber. It's the same thing with alcohol. Same thing with sugar. So the key takeaway from my work is moderation. If everything is a moderation, you can have everything you want. You can have nightshades, you can drink alcohol for as long as, or you can have fiber for as long as in moderation. But really, I mean, people who are healthy don't come across my site. They don't search the Internet, they don't buy my book. So my work is limited to people with very serious disorders. And unfortunately, athletes are the ones who are the most vulnerable to digestive disorders and particularly colorectal disorders.

Yeah, and I actually had a fascinating podcast with a guy named Dr. Michael Ruscio in which we talked about how athletes do indeed experience things like a higher amount of leaky gut syndrome and a higher amount of open junctions in the cell lining of the gut due to the combination of high, high calorie intake and then low blood flow to the gut because they're exercising and a lot of times exercising while their body is trying to digest food. And so, yeah, I'd certainly agree with you on that. And by the way, I'll put that study in the show notes for folks who want to read that study about how if you have constipation or if you have, like, irritable bowel syndrome, there's actually some benefit in reducing fiber intake. Now, I want to shift focus here and talk a little bit about heart disease and diabetes. You've said, and I believe this quote is on your website, fiber intake has been linked with metabolic syndrome, a constellation of factors that increases the chances of developing heart disease and diabetes. And you quote a study when you say that. And I went and checked out that study, and basically that study does say fiber intake has been linked with metabolic syndrome, a constellation of factors that increases the chances of developing heart disease and diabetes. And these factors include high blood pressure, high insulin levels, excess weight, high levels of triglycerides, the body's main fat carrying particle, and low levels of hdl, or good cholesterol. But that same study goes on to say that several studies suggest that higher intake of cereal fiber and higher intake of whole grains may actually ward off that metabolic syndrome. So how would you respond to that idea that in that study it does suggest that fiber in whole grains may actually assist with lowering the chance of developing things like heart disease and diabetes?

Well, let's be realistic. First, you know that there is a great deal of information is coming up in all sources on social media and medical media saying that practically 95% of all the studies conducted over the last couple of generations are false. Meaning that there were studies that were developed specifically to feed to fit the agenda of the entity that was essentially providing the grant to conduct the study. So can we rely on all the studies done on mice, that mice do very well with increased amount of rats, or even monkeys with increased amount, or rabbits? They do very well on fiber, but they are herbivorous animals. That's all they consume. Can we transfer that to people? Absolutely not. But the connection between fiber consumption and heart disease is very simple. I mean, it can't be more simple. If I'll ask you this question, would you confirm a statement that consuming 3 to 400 grams of 10 to 12 ounces of consumable carbohydrates, glucose, fructose, galactose a day will increase a person's chances of developing type 2 diabetes, heart disease, elevated triglycerides? Profoundly. Will you confirm that fact?

That confirm the fact that eating a high amount of grains could increase that risk?

High amount of carbohydrates, regardless of their nature?

Yeah, I think that eating a high amount of carbohydrates could definitely increase risk for diabetes and heart disease.

Absolutely unquestionable. Now, people are urged to consume 30 to 40 grams of fiber a day. And they're not urged to consume this fiber from supplements or laxatives. They're urged to consume this fiber from natural foods, natural fruits, natural vegetables, natural grains, natural cereals. However, the ratio of digestible carbohydrates to undigestible to get that much fiber is anywhere 1 to 5 to 1 to 10. So if you will set up your mind on consuming 30 to 40 grams of natural fiber, you will end up consuming at least from 2 to 400 grams of digestible carbohydrates. That's your connection.

Gotcha.

It's not a subject the studies is just the common sense.

Gotcha. So what you're saying is that the potential benefit that cereal fiber and that whole grain intake could give you when it comes to warding off metabolic syndrome is overshadowed by the effect that these foods are so potent at increasing the Blood sugar.

That is correct.

Okay, gotcha. So do you think that. I mean, obviously, and I'm sure that there are some folks wanting to jump through the podcast episode and scream at us right now about this fact. Obviously, it's gonna differ from person to person, right? And we've talked about this before on podcasts, how, how certain people will produce higher levels of salivary amylase, or certain people will have a genetic predisposition to not have as high of an insulin response to certain foods. And some people do better with slightly higher amounts of carbohydrates. And some people need to follow a low carbohydrate diet. I'm a perfect example. I actually have done 23andMe genetic testing. I've exported those 23andMe genetic testing results to a website like Prometheus, and I've found that I personally have nearly a 30% higher than normal risk for type 2 diabetes. So I'm pretty careful with my carbohydrate intake, but some people don't have those same type of issues. So I would say that, you know, it's going to depend on the person. And I'm not sure if you would agree with me on this, Constantin, but I'm curious to hear your opinion on this. Do you think that it would be helpful for people who are eating things like cereal fibers or who are eating things like whole grains to actually use something like a blood glucose monitor to see how that food is affecting their blood glucose after they eat it?

No, not really, because it's not indicative of anything. Blood glucose monitors, they were designed for people with type 1 diabetes originally who were on insulin. And the whole intent of using the monitor wasn't to monitor high blood sugar, but low blood sugar to prevent hypoglycemic episode, which for them was very dangerous. And then when this whole medicalization of type 2 diabetes came about, they started to use blood sugar monitors to monitor elevated blood sugar and then prescribe drugs based on the readings of the blood. Blood glucose monitor. But it's really meaningless for many reasons. For example, if you consume, let's say, a steak along with lots and lots of mashed potatoes, a source of carbohydrates, and then you finish up. This was a nice piece of cake, but you know, this blood sugar will not enter into your body until six to eight hours later, because that's how long a gastric digestion takes in an absolutely healthy person.

So you have to be monitoring your blood glucose six to eight hours after eating a meal like that.

That is correct. Exactly. And also it's not going to be quite meaningful anyway because you will be monitoring what is called endogenous glucose. And the delay between the reading for endogenous glucose and exogenous input of carbohydrates is quite delay even more. So. The only way to actually get any value from this kind of information is that you have to monitor it in real time, meaning 24,7. But the reading of endogenous glucose is really completely meaningless because it also depends on a lot of other factors. Your level of physical activity, your level of intellectual activity, time of day, your rate of breathing, your rate of metabolism, your stress level, and so on and so forth and so on. And some people who are hyperinsulinemic, it will be blunted just by elevated level of insulin. So you actually may be in the late stage diabetes, but your blood sugars may be actually normal when you use this kind of spot monitor.

Okay, gotcha. Now, I've got one other question before I want to kind of switch focus here and talk a little bit about some other topics in the realm of nutrition, like fecal transplants and resistant starch and stuff like that. There was a study done called vegetable, fruit and cereal fiber intake and risk of coronary heart disease among men. And that study obviously looked into the relationship between dietary fiber and the risk of coronary heart disease. And they took, I believe, nearly 45,000 men from 40 to 75 years old, and they followed them for six years and looked at their incidence of coronary disease. And they found that a 10 gram increase in total dietary fiber corresponded to a significantly lower risk of coronary heart disease. And their conclusions, they say in the conclusions for the study, our results suggest an inverse association between fiber intake and MI, MI standing for myocardial infarction or heart attack. And they then go on to say these results support current national dietary guidelines to increase dietary fiber intake and suggest that fiber is an important dietary component for the prevention of coronary disease. When we look at that type of link and the claims made by those researchers as well as by other researchers when it comes to total dietary fiber intake and a reduction in the risk of for coronary disease, what would you say about that? Would you disagree that fiber decreases the risk of coronary disease? Or do you think that something else is going on in these studies? Or what would you have to say?

Well, the study is an utter nonsense. First of all, it's an observation study. It's essentially a review of questionnaires mailed to some class of people over, let's say, five to 10 to 20 years. There is absolutely no way by reviewing 20 questionnaires, 20,000 or 200,000 questionnaires sent specifically to a certain class of people, let's say like nurses, to determine if there is a connection between a person's diet and myocardial function, or strokes or anything else. Because these diseases are very delayed, they occur later in life when people are in their 60s and 70s. They do occur in younger people, but not as often. And you know, and the class of people, I mean, you have 22 year old kids who are dropping dead with a cardiac arrest. So we cannot make those connections. But this study makes a very good reading and very good pr. And so if you don't read the study point by point and determine in what way it was composed, who paid for it, how it was done, what was the intent of the researchers, you really cannot make those determination. So technically speaking, my take on it, this is a fraud. Because when I look at it as a forensic nutritionist, I ask myself a question. In what way a substance that is completely indigestible, that is technically a cellulose, essentially the same substance as toilet paper, in what way it can prevent heart attack? Or in what way it can make a person more predisposed to heart attack? No, it can't. I mean, it's a complete utter nonsense. Because the only issues that if we look at heart attacks, there are two types of heart attacks. There are ischemic, meaning there is an occlusion somewhere and there is no blood supply, or hemorrhagic, meaning there is a blood vessel rupture. And the same thing with strokes. Most heart attacks are ischemic. In what way fiber can prevent information of the clot somewhere in the lower extremity. And in what way a fiber can prevent atherosclerosis that makes blood vessels so thin that blood can no longer flow. It can't. It's an undigestible substance, it's a cellulose, it's the same thing as paper. Why are the studies paid for? Why are the studies are designed, why they're made, why they're publicized? Well, because there is a huge lobby of agricultural producers who are making enormous amount of money by marketing fortified products of wheat fortified products and marketing also laxatives. That's where it's coming from. It is not from a bonafide real research that has any value or meaning to people. It's essentially like saying, you know, men. I always make this analogy by saying if we look at men and a rate of prostate Cancer, we can make a conclusion that men who wear black underpants, they're much less likely to develop a prostate cancer. And it is true.

Well, my take on a study like this, when I look at it, is that when you look at the guys who came into the study, they were eating, even the guys eating the high amount of fiber, they were up at about. They were still less than 30 grams a day. And the people eating a low amount of fiber, they were down around, I believe, 12 grams a day in that study. And so even if we look at that study, we still aren't seeing folks who are eating an extremely, extremely high amount of fiber intake, like more than 40 grams a day, which would be an amount, if I understand you and your book correctly, would be an amount that would cause things like irritable bowel syndrome or a lot of the deleterious effects that you say that fiber can cause. So even if these folks were experiencing a reduction in coronary heart disease from their fiber intake, they still weren't really at the level of fiber intake that you're suggesting on your website and in your book to actually be harmful. And so I would say that when I look at this, it kind of returns to what you had mentioned before, and that is that moderation is key. That someone who's trying to reduce coronary heart disease, if they're eating like two bags of kale and three apples and a copious amount of plant matter per day, and then they're experiencing constipation or irritable bowel or a lot of these other issues, you know, they're definitely doing too much of a good thing. Now, I know we could talk a long time about that particular study and some of these issues with coronary heart disease, but I have so many other things I wanted to ask you about. So I'm curious, would you be game to delve into a few kind of popular issues here in the nutrition industry that I want to ask you about?

Oh, absolutely. And I just. Before we go on, and I would appreciate if you can make a link from your site to my site to the article which is entitled Dietary A Heart Savior from Heaven or a Death Wish From Hell. And it's a very lengthy.

I love your titles. Okay, cool. I'll link to that. So, folks, go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com fibermyth I'm gonna link to some of these studies too, that Konstantin and I are talking about. Okay. So, Konstantin, I wanna ask you about resistant starch. There are a lot of companies now making resistant starch supplements. There are entire diets built up around this resistant starch. And the idea that when you eat this form of fiber that is resistant to digestion, that it can do things like completely reinvent the bacteria in your gut in a good way or that it can vastly lower blood sugar. And I'm curious, what is your take on resistant starch and resistant starch diets? And also, if you could, in your explanation, can you kind of make a little differentiation between resistant starch and these other forms of fiber we've been talking about?

Okay, well, resistant starch is a code word for essentially fiber. It's just a fancy term made up to just sell something. Made it more scientific, made it more. Let's look at definition. I'm reading. It's not from my memory. Resistant starch is a starch and starch degradation products that escape from digestion in the small intestine of healthy individuals. So what it really means is that essentially resistant starch are carbohydrates or oligosaccharides that will not be subject to amylases, meaning those enzymes that work on starches and make them absorbable, and they will reach the large intestine intact, and there they will become a food for bacteria in the large intestine, inside the large intestine. Now, let me ask you this. You're familiar with it. Have you ever did a compost pile?

Oh, yeah. My wife has taken a composting class. And there are giant composting piles up by our garden bed as we speak.

And so what's a compost pile? Lots of carbohydrates mixed with aerobic bacteria. Right. And anaerobic. What happens in your gut when you mix a lot of fiber with anaerobic bacteria?

The issue that a lot of people complain about with resistant starch, which is copious amounts of very smelly gas.

Exactly. So you turn your large intestine in, compost pile. I mean, and so what else is happening when you ferment fiber? Well, alcohols, not just ethanol that makes you drunk, but also toxic alcohol, such as methanol and then high. That's why people who have this compost pile sitting right inside their gut, they feel miserable, they suffer from fatigue, they're irritable, irritated, and so forth and so on. And what else is happening in the gut when we get so many so much gases, it bloats up. And that's how diverticular disease forms. Meaning those bulges. I mean, usually. I mean, if you take a party balloon and you start to blow it up, at one point it will break. Well, the gut will not break, but it will, you know, some diverticulus will pop up. That's when you run into the problems for the rest of your life. And what else is happening when in a compost pile, Elevated acidity, very high amount of acids. But you know, our gut was not designed to deal with acids in such a profuse profound amounts and acids caused inflammation.

Can you explain really quickly for people listening in why it is that, for example, a gorilla would be able to handle these high amounts of resistance starch while a human may not?

Well, first, we don't know if gorilla can or can't. I mean, if you look at African children in very poor villages and you look at monkeys, they have always, I mean they feature all the same thing, a bloated abdomen. So they eat what they can.

But doesn't a gorilla have a larger colon and thus they're able to actually ferment and digest and convert into short chain fatty acids. So higher amounts of fiber than say a human who has a smaller colon but a larger brain?

Well, it may, it may consume, I mean gorillas do consume plants, I mean, leaves and so forth and so on. So yes, they can. Their evolutionary difference between you and I and a gorilla is far more than the difference between you and I. Probably difference between the two of us is 0.1% genetic difference. But the difference between us and gorillas is probably like in the range of 2 to 3%. And so they are evolutionary adapted. The entire digestive system, their entire enzymatic system, of course adapted to dealing with carbohydrates in a much better way than where. And also there is a big difference between you and I and a gorilla. When gorilla needs to move bowels, it does it immediately on demand. It doesn't, you know, it has no embarrassment factor. It doesn't need to go and seek the bathroom. And we don't live in those environments.

Yeah, we have to suppress the gas. And I know that that's actually a serious issue in many cases is because is people will suppress the gas and experience a lot of digestive issues like cramping and bloating simply because it's. Well, we don't want to fart when we're sitting at the office and it's an hour after we've had our giant lunchtime salad. So yeah, I know that certainly can be an issue. Some people will say, however, that the gas eventually goes away when they're eating a high resistant starch diet. Do you know why that might be Absolutely.

I mean, the gas refluxes back from the large intestine, where it forms into the small intestine. And the function of the small intestine is to absorb gases because small intestine produces copious amounts of gases. And those gases absorbed into the blood and leave your body through the stomach.

Okay, interesting. And so you get the gases absorbed into the bloodstream.

That is correct. But again, I mean, the gases reflect themselves back into the small intestines through what is called ileocecal valve.

Is there any deleterious effect of gases being absorbed into the bloodstream from the small intestine?

From a small intestine? None. But if those gases are coming from the large intestines, then you usually get this bad breath. It's not halitosis, but it's essentially a smell of stool in somebody's breast.

Okay. So theoretically, if you're on a resistant starch diet and you produce a bunch of gas and it winds up back up in the small intestine and gets absorbed into the bloodstream, then you've gotten rid of the gas without any bad effect.

There are no bad effects, really, other than just discomfort. And especially for women, especially before and during menstruation, when the uterus is enlarged. And so when you have this abdominal cavity is fairly tightly packed. So when you have an enlarged, enlarged uterus and also enlarged gut, they really pressurize each other and cause pain. So it may lead to hernia. And very common among men.

Okay. So if you have small intestine bacterial overgrowth, or if you have irritable bowel syndrome, then this resistant starch issue or this resistant starch diet may be something that you'd want to avoid in the same way that you would want to avoid exceeding, say, 40 grams of fiber per day, especially if that fiber is from insoluble fiber sources.

Absolutely. And also, as you will know, you heard the term the low food map diet, Diet developed specifically to deal with those conditions we just mentioned. Specifically eliminate the fermentation that is going on inside the gut. So your gut is no longer a veritable compost bile.

Yeah. And I've certainly gone through periods of time in my life where I've experienced more gas and more bloating. And I've posted that low FODMAP diet chart on the refrigerator to help my wife and I out, to help her out with grocery shopping and to help me out with making sure I choose the right foods. And within just a couple of days, it will eliminate almost all that gas and bloating and constipation. And it does mean that I got to be careful with things like high amounts of onion intake and apple intake and especially things like wheat and bread intake. But it makes a tremendous difference. And I personally have tried these banana starch powders and resistant starches. I don't feel well on them. I haven't given them the full dietary protocol test of 30 days. But I would definitely say that folks who have gut issues should be careful with this. Now, I want to ask you about how one would fix Constantin, a colon that has lack of bacteria. Like, let's say you've been on an antibiotic protocol or maybe you've done some type of, like a colonic cleanse or a colonic flush that may have affected the bacteria in your gut to fix a large intestine or a colon that needs more bacteria. Because I know this can be an issue and a lot of people have irritable bowel syndrome or, or colonic issues or who have taken antibiotics. Can you just take a probiotic to fix a colon that has a lack of bacteria or do you need to use some other type of approach? And the reason that I ask this is I know some people who will do things like. And I've experimented with this just to see if there's any effect because I love to use myself as a guinea pig. So at the risk of people cringing as they listen to, I've tried doing things like breaking open probiotic capsules, mixing them with butyrate capsules, and doing like, enemas to increase the bacteria content of the colon, for example. I'm curious how you would go about addressing bacterial issues, especially when it comes to the colon and the large intestine.

Well, I need to disappoint you. Mixing bacteria, especially with a high fiber diet, is essentially, again, especially high quality bacteria is essentially turning your stomach. I mean, turning your gut, turning your large intestine into the compost pile. It doesn't work. Innate bacteria, which we mentioned in the beginning of the podcast, resides in the mucosal membrane. It does not reside inside the stool or inside the cavity of the large intestine. So it does really. I mean, it does have some effect and some of it may be beneficial, but not really all of the effect attributed to it. And when a lot of people saying, I'm taking probiotics and they're helping me and I'm taking high fiber diet and probiotics are helping me, what really is happening is that those probiotics are completely ineffective and they never survive. The trip from the mouse to the large intestine. And so they don't even ferment the fiber that is present there. And they simply get better. Because in most cases, when we get some problems, we usually get better because as we simply becoming more careful, the only real way to restore your innate flora damaged by antibiotics is by means of fecal implant. And now this procedure is approved by the FDA only in the case of C. Difficile infection. But in general, I mean, if you have any serious issues and you are concerned, fecal implant is the only way to go.

Okay, so you do a fecal transplant. That's the only way to actually, truly, effectively change the bacteria in the large intestine. You can't do it by using like a probiotic enema or a butyric acid enema or something along those lines.

That is correct. Also, I mean, if you look at probiotics primarily, you know, a few strains, 7, 8, maybe 10, 12 strains at best, and the strains originally were cultivated for livestock, for essentially cows, to improve their digestion of fiber. Cultivated for human.

Got it. So the main issue with probiotics is that they simply don't even come close the amount of bacteria you'd get if you were to do, say, a fecal transplant.

And not just bacteria. There is much more to fecal transplants. There are some immunofactors there, there are some factors. So it's really. I mean, it's being studied intensively. But people don't really, even scientists who are involved in this, they don't really understand the whole scope of why it is working. So it's not just bacteria.

Okay, so you have. There's one supplement, because I know that you design supplements. You have one that. And I'll link to it if you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com fibermyth you can take a look at Konsensen's book and some of the supplements that he's designed. You have one that I believe is targeted for colonic health. You have this colorectal recovery program, and one of them is designed, correct me if I'm wrong, to actually influence the bacteria of the large intestine, isn't it?

Yes, it's a very minor component of this program. And essentially, before we go into the supplements, let me explain to our listeners. This is the thing. I am not a fiber fighter. If you're healthy and if you eat fiber and nothing wrong with you, you don't even need to listen to this. But I stumbled through my own ordeals and through working for 18 years in this field with a lot of clients into a field of colorectal disorders, meaning your hemorrhoids, your diverticular disease, chronic constipation. And numbers are staggering. 40 million Americans have this chronic constipation, 50 million with irritable bowel syndrome, every second person after 50 with enlarged hemorrhoids, every second person after 60 with diverticular disease. By 80, I mean, you cannot even find anyone in America with a healthy gut. And so this is a huge field, huge business. And all those colorectal disorders are very unpleasant. I mean, you know, if you eye vision goes down as you get older, you just buy yourself eyeglasses or you delay sick. But if you suffer from constipation or IBS, or inflammatory bowel disease of Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis, it's a bitch. I mean, it's really hard. And so I found for myself originally the solution, and then the solution kind of propagated into my work with clients and became this program. It is not intended as a preventative. It is intended for people with serious colorectal disorders. And so, yes, I did develop a series of supplements. Essentially they're called colorectal recovery program. And they work well only in combination with low fiber diet. I mean, if you are on a high fiber diet or even moderate fiber diets, they will not work because essentially you're using a supplement to fix the problems that were created with this paradoxical diet. And then, you know, you're adding more fiber. So you kind of, you know, you neutralize the effectiveness of the supplements.

Interesting. So. So if I could jump in real, real quick, whenever someone's taking like, like some type of a supplement to help out with their gut health, like a probiotic or like, let's say digestive enzymes or, you know, you see colostrum, things like that. If they are taking those in conjunction with fiber intake that exceeds, let's say 40 grams of fiber per day, they're actually not going to notice very good results.

Assuming that probiotic works. Okay, Probiotics don't.

Okay, go ahead.

Because they're getting killed in the stomach. When you ingest a probiotic, your stomach always has a natural acidity. And so they simply don't describe the trip or the original quality.

Okay, go ahead with what you were explaining about supplementation, intake and fixing the gut.

So essentially, when my program in the United States of America, if you come to a physician and you complain about constipation, the very first question a physician will ask you, how long didn't you haven't have stool? And if you said, if you say oh doctor, I'm having stool every day, but it's really hard and it's painful and I have to strain and sometimes I see small amounts of blood and I have enlarged hemorrhoids. And the doctor will turn to you and say, oh, you don't have constipation, you're perfectly okay. I mean, yes, I realize you have problems, so take more fiber and just, you know, don't, don't even waste my time. So constipation becomes constipation only if you didn't have, you haven't had stools for three days.

Okay, gotcha.

That's technically what it is. And even if you look in, let's say Zemerk Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy and read about this issue, it's written there, black and white. People who complain about not having stools less than once in every three days is psychotics. They're obsessed with their stools. They're in your office to complain to bitch about stools, but they're not constipated. Just tell them to take more fiber. And so when people come to their doctors, that's what the doctors recommend, more fiber. And so let's look at constipation. What exactly is constipation? Why it is happening. Constipation is essentially, or let's use a more proper term, castivity, describes the symptoms of not having a comfortable bubble movement. Technically speaking, like do you think gorilla, when he or she or gorilla wants to move bubbles, she sits in the corner and like saying, making those noises and straining her abdomen and you know, and it takes, the whole thing takes 30, 40 minutes. No gorilla sits down for her. For gorilla, defecation takes as much effort and pleasure as urination. I mean unnoticeable. So when we were children, when you were a child, urination and moving bubbles were kind of non events. You just eaten out. But as we get older, moving bubbles become a big event. I mean it becomes a problem because it's painful, because it hurts, because you need to strain, because you can get a stroke from just straining yourself so hard or even heart attacks, which are very common in toilets. And the reason why it is happening is because our large intestine, our colon, the colon, I mean the large intestine was designed for small stools. But because we don't move bowels often enough and because our diet is so fiber heavy stools and lunch. And that's why fiber is called the bulking factor, it bulks your stools. But unfortunately when you do all those things, your anal canal, it doesn't become any smaller. I mean, and it's very small. It's an anal canal. A full natural opening, pain free, is no larger than a quarter. But people have, if you look at your, I mean some people look, especially people who consume a lot of fiber and they look at your stools in the toilet, it's much larger than a quarter. That's where the pain comes from. You have to push that out of your body to get it into the toilet. And so my first recommendation to people who come to my site, and I get a lot of people, I mean almost like 200,000amonth nowadays, I'm probably helping more people in a year, you know, in a month. And all of the, than most of the gastroenterologists throughout their entire career. And they only come and search the Internet for those problems with constipation and with IBS and with enlarged hemorrhoid and diverticular disease because they couldn't find that kind of help from their doctors. I mean, if I would be, let's say a layperson, not getting involved in what I'm doing right now and I would find the side of Konstantin Monastursky talking about those issues. Fiber is no good, Large tools are no good. This is no good, no good. And I would say this guy is nuts. I mean, everything that he says is a complete opposite of what everybody else is saying. But unfortunately they already, those people who find my site finally on the Internet they heard everybody saying what they're saying. They tried everything what they're saying and nothing works to them. And so they say, well, he's not, or not, I don't know, I need to try it because I'm desperate. And so the very first advice on the site, cut off the fiber. In most cases you don't even need my supplements because just cutting out fiber will reduce amount of stool quite enough to actually improve your condition. Unfortunately, there is also a class of people for whom this problem went too far and they can no longer attain regular bowel movements unassisted. So they must depend on some kind of a laxative. And all laxative, as we know, are either toxic or addictive or have unpleasant side effects. So I kind of developed this program program for myself in the first place because I am myself a victim of many years of being vegetarian and consuming extremely high fiber diet, believing it was this, you know, there is no such a thing as too little of a good thing. And it's and it's. And it works. We did a survey. We hired actual firm, independent firm to do a survey. And 82% of our clients said that, you know, that either they're very happy with our program or happy with the program. Only 18% said that, you know, it didn't help them, which is normal.

And that's when people are taking this. So you've got basically what's called a colonic moisturizer, which is kind of like a vitamin C blend. You've got a probiotic acidophilus that passes through the acidic nature of the stomach and doesn't get degraded. And then there's some other things in there, like a few specific vitamins and minerals to restore colonic health that one would take in conjunction with, with limited fiber intake. That would basically be the big picture for people who want to, want to take care of gut issues and who have constipation but don't want to take or maybe have issues like I do with these laxatives or these cleansing supplements or for example, just eating a bunch of kale smoothies.

That is correct. So essentially I developed an organic approach to managing chronic or sporadic colorectal disorders.

Okay, cool.

That's what it is.

I'll link to this in the show notes over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com fibermyth but I can't let you go, Konstantin, without asking you one last million dollar question here. And that is, do you use a squatty potty or are you familiar with one?

I'm familiar with? You can imagine how many emails I get. And this question is often asked. And fortunately, a sqvari party is a myth. You know, really? It is a myth. Yes. It really works for little children. But let's take my average client, let's say a 45 year old male who is overweight and who would consider the idea of essentially moving bubbles in a squatting position. He doesn't even have muscle strength to do that, so he needs to bring his legs up, which is what really is an extension to a toilet. And you just elevate your legs. Now, for people who are perfectly healthy, it may maybe improve the, you know, enhance moving bubbles, but most likely not. And why people who are having problems to move bubbles, they have not. This has nothing to do with position. I mean, technically speaking, a healthy person can move bubbles upside down. You know, the stool will go up. Why? Because it's happening due to peristalsis of the rectum and of the anal muscles and of the large intestine. It has nothing to do with the stool, does not move on its own. Only gravitation doesn't really work. It's peristalsis. So when people use squatipati. Now, for those who are healthy, it may help. For children, it may help. But if you do have problems, squatty putty actually enhances people to strain and they may cause even more harm with gamma roids or with anal fissures. How do I know that they don't work? I mean, obviously everything that I'm saying, just take it very critically, say, well, this guy's a full of crap. I may be, but I'm on the receiving end every day. 20, 30 emails from clients, and this is going on for the last 10 years saying, oh, I am using squatty putty. It doesn't help. Will your program help? And so my take on this is not based on research or studies or knowledge, but it's based on feedback from thousands and thousands of customers who said, we tried that, it didn't help us. But I can explain why. I understand the physiology. I understand the anatomy of a bubble movement. And so the reason why, let's say people who are in space, there is no gravitation in space, they do move bubbles regularly quite well. They don't use clarity, but it's there. So if you're healthy, it may help. But if you are having problem, no, it's pointless. Not only pointless, it may be also damaging because it may encourage you to stay on the stool longer and strain, and that's what causes hemorrhoids.

My personal experience with the squatty potty is that if I use it the right way or like, if I squat on it and I'm like down in an actual squatting position and not using it as a comfortable way to rest on the toilet, it helps in the same way that, like taking a dump in the woods isn't comfortable because you are often in kind of like a deep squatting position. But man, compared to playing Scrabble on your Kindle while sitting rested on the toilet, stuff comes out a lot more quickly. So I think the, I think the issue personally with the squatty potty is it all depends on how you use it. And if you use it correctly, for me it helps. I've got one in three different bathrooms in my house, but I've found that you can use it kind of like a lazy boy for the toilet. And if you do it that way, it doesn't seem to work that well. But if you get into like a really good squat position on it, it seems to work okay. But you are right, A lot of people, they don't even have the muscles to do that because they don't squat and they don't do functional exercise, so. Exactly. Well, there are.

And the reason squatting works because we were designed that way. We're naturally. People were moving bubbles in the squatting position.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. There's a lot of things that I could talk to you about, man, I know we're running out of time, but we've probably raised more questions than we've answered, too, just like the last podcast that we did. But for anybody listening in, here's what I'm going to do. I've got the show notes up@bengreenfieldfitness.com fibermyth that's bengreenfieldfitness.com Fibermyth I'll link to Konstantin's website. I'll link to a lot of the studies that we talked about. I'll link to his program. It's called the Colorectal recovery Program. If you scroll down to the end of the show notes there, I'll put a link to that there, as well as to his book, the Fiber Menace.

Now for free of charge on the site. Full text.

Yeah, you can actually get the book for free on the site. That's right. That's actually how I originally discovered Konstantin was reading this book. And then finally, if you have questions or comments, of course, pipe in. That's a big part of these podcasts is there's ongoing conversation that always occurs afterwards. And Konstantin and I can both help you in the comments section there again, over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com FiberMyth so, that being said, Konstantin, thanks for coming on the show today.

Ben, thank you so much. It was a great pleasure. And thank you to everybody who will listen or listening to this podcast. I really appreciate you giving me an opportunity to express us paradoxical views and points of views. Thank you so much.

We're all about paradoxical views. All right, folks. Well, this is Ben Greenfield and Dr. Konstantin Monastirski signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have a healthy week.

You've been listening to the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast. Go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness and performance advice.

Sam.