DEFY the Odds: SURPRISING Cancer Treatment BREAKTHROUGHS that Leverage Exercise & Oxygen Therapy with Dr. Thomas Incledon!

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life.

Podcast, I saw a lot of different medical conditions, from neurological conditions to autoimmune conditions to cancer, that people were responding. And so I was hired by a company to investigate, like, how is this working? And so I said, well, you know, one possible mechanism is through the immune system. So I really focused on running a lot of tests over different protocols. And we came up with a couple of findings that I didn't see anywhere on the Internet. I didn't see anywhere in a classic research that everybody talks about the stepwise progression therapy from some of the older textbooks on anaerobic threshold training and stuff like that. And basically what I saw is that if we got people breathing oxygen, once they got between 500 and 1,000 calories, their tumors started to shrink with time. The exercise with oxygen therapy increases the magnitude of the response, so more cells going out, killing, but also increases the precision. They're not just killing anything, they're killing.

Cancer, fitness, nutrition, biohacking, longevity, life optimization, spirituality, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Ben Greenfield Life Show. Are you ready to hack your life? Let's do this. So I've known about this guy for years, an OG in I don't know if you'd call it medicine or health or fitness or perhaps all three. His name is Dr. Thomas Incledon, and I've read some of the things he's written. I've listened to some of his interviews, and again, I've known about him for a while, but really have never had the chance to interview Tom until now. And, Tom, you're probably best equipped to explain to people what your background is and what exactly it is that you do here. We're sitting here at Causenta in Scottsdale. C A U S E N T A if you want the show notes, if you want to check this place out, I'll link to everything Tom and I Talk about@BenGreenfieldLife.com Causenta Again, C A U S E N T A But, Tom, tell me a little bit about what this place is, what you do, and how you got into this.

So. So this place has become sort of like this constantly expanding giant collection of technology from around the world.

Sounds like my basement.

Yeah. So the difference, though is, keep in mind, is like, we actually could put catheters in people's arms and we could collect data pre and post. So I know more about a lot of gadgets than the people that actually make the gadgets. So they'll tell me stuff like oh, my God. Machine gets more nutrients in a cell. I'm like, no, it doesn't. Like, how do you know? Well, because I've actually measured over a thousand people doing it. Because the people come here, basically, they're curious. They want to know, is this helping me or not? So we basically focus on measuring molecules that everybody needs to know about, but most people, like, it's not attractive enough to them, or they don't understand how to interpret it, or it's just not something in their normal wheelhouse. Like, we're in a world where, you know, instant gratification. I want to use it. I want results yesterday, right?

Yeah.

And so, I mean, I still operate on that myself, but then at a certain point, you're like, hey, how do I notice it's helping me? Giving it time or money or whatever effort you're putting into it. You want to know, like, is it not conflicting what something else you're doing? So basically what we started doing is we started giving people the opportunity to come in here and think of it as they could do their own, like, and of one study. So whether someone wants to just lift weights and I can draw their blood and measure all this stuff around a workout, or whether someone wants to run or. It doesn't really matter what you want to do. We could just basically measure anything you want before, immediately after, and then multiple time points later. And then. So from that, I've been able to discover things like no one else in the world has been ever to discover. So, for example, I first learned about exercise with oxygen therapy around 2015. Other guys were already talking about it before then, but I looked at every single guy, was like, just reposting the same thing everybody else was posting. I'm like, who did you measure? Well, no one. So you're saying these things happen, but you never put a catheter in a guy's arm, drew his blood and see.

What happens besides maybe a pulse ox, fingertip measurement?

So I started doing entire, like, lymphocyte panels and started measuring cytotoxic T lymphocytes, natural killer cells, and then every hormone that could be measured and all these antioxidants and, like, you know, thousands of molecules or different cell lines. And then we started seeing some things and like, whoa, you know, how do we reproduce that? So in other words, let's say I measure you and you're at 100. Let's say we measure me. I'm at a 10 and I want to get to 100. Now, what do I have to do to get my 10 to your 100, right? And that's when you say, wait a minute, I'm low in K2. And then does K2 have a relationship between immune responses? You know, and the reality is we know every cell in our body needs every single, you know, a molecule like oxygen, water, vitamins, minerals, essentially.

Vitamins, minerals, fatty acids, amino acids.

So if you're low something, there's a penalty somewhere, whether you realize it or not. Right. And so if I happen to be low in something and not know it, I'm not going to get the best possible results from all the other stuff. So I always encourage people make sure you know your basics right, because you're not going to get the best result from like creatine or testosterone or, you know, whatever other supplement if you're missing like this foundational stuff. And it's surprising. Every human I've tested over 200,000 people. The number of people that actually notice basic stuff, you know, before they get here is less than I could count on one hand.

I have to ask, since you brought it up, and I do it like two or three times a week, does exercises, oxygen therapy work?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, without a doubt. So, well, I guess we'll define how you mean work though. Like, so.

Right.

So first let me just reframe the question a little bit. Yeah, So I primarily see people that have very serious health issues right now.

I still work and that's important because I think a lot of people would look at, you know, if you watch the video version, jerseys on the wall and the professional athletes, this is not just like a high end performance facility. You're treating people who are diseased.

Yeah. So, okay, so to connect some of these sort of abstract concepts, I worked with, you know, NFL, super bowl winning teams and World Series winning basketball, I mean baseball players and always like, let's say high level athletes. And then these guys had family members and they got sick. And then you see all of a sudden they're in this like other world and the quality care sucked. It was just terrible. Like, you know, think of it this way. You're a football player, you go down on the field, they're M.R.I. ing you, like right on the sidelines or going in a tunnel and they have results instantly. Practically now you got cancer and you gotta wait three weeks to get a scan. You know what I mean?

So it's a different world, right?

Exactly. So it's a whole. And I'm like, this doesn't make any sense. And then the care team that's supposed to be working together to help this person beat this terrible illness. Daryl, you know, who's on vacation, who's not getting back till next week. And so it was very discombobulated, and I started seeing there's all this stuff that just wasn't done. And so that kind of led to me getting this reputation for helping all these athletes, family members, a lot of guys, you know, well, think of it.

I was kind of wondering how you went from performance to disease.

That's interesting. And then it just swells. Like, you know, one guy's like, hey, my dad's got this. Hey, my mom's got this. My cousin, my brother, whatever. And then just to be. You know, when I was nine, my babysitter died from a brain tumor. And just, you know, just to kind of put things in perspective when I was nine. So I'm 57 now, but let's say roughly 50 years ago, no one knew what cancer was. Today I say cancer. No one ever asked me, what is that? Everyone either has had it or knows someone. It's had it. It's not like a scary new word. It's a scary word, but it's not new. Everybody's. It's in their vocabulary now. So in 50 years, we went from not knowing anything to everybody knows it. And so, you know, just because the relationships, all these people, and then seeing all the results to family members, it really took off. Now, we always work with people with cancer, but it's kind of like this. You see, you know, Ray Lewis, Bill Romanowski, but like the studs of the past walking out. People know who they are because they're on tv. So that name gets out there. You see some guy that's never been on TV with cancer walking out. No one says, oh, look who that is. They don't know who he is. Right? And so some of them. That's just like media bias and just entertainment bias. And so getting back to the ewod, like, does it work? So what I've seen is that if I saw a lot of different medical conditions, from neurological conditions to autoimmune conditions to cancer, that people were responding. And so I was hired by a company to investigate, like, how is this working? And so I said, well, you know, one possible mechanism is through the immune system. So I really focused on running a lot of tests over different protocols. And we came up with a couple of findings that I didn't see anywhere on the Internet. I didn't see anywhere. In a classic research that everybody talks about the stepwise progression Therapy from some of the older textbooks on anaerobic threshold training and stuff like that. And basically what I saw is that if we got people breathing oxygen, once they got between 500 and 1,000 calories, their tumor started to shrink. That's without any treatments, like, any.

Can you say 500 to 1000 calories? 500 to a thousand calories, Meaning that's what they were metabolizing during an exercise session.

So, so on there say, like to the ellipticals. We have here are Cybex ARC trainers. I'm not promoting the brand or anything, but just that, you know, we're doing. So we program it so the resistance to the load is £400. And that's the standardized for everyone. And then we have the incline at 10 degrees, you know, incline. And then we have it start somewhere around 30%, but let's just say 30. Then I just pedal till they hit 500 calories on the screen. Okay. You know, and then when they're, you know, when they get more fit to a thousand, and then somewhere in that zone of 500 to 1,000 total calories for that session, they just see cancer disappear.

Is that because cancer thrives in an anaerobic environment and you're creating an aerobic environment?

Well, you're doing a lot of things. So first, like, so to. To kind of focus on the immune system aspects. First, we see an increase in cytotoxic T lymphocytes and natural killer cells in a range of 27 million to 27 billion for one person.

Wow.

So in 15 minutes, they're immune. Like, here's their immune system, and it's saying normal, nothing wrong with it. But now after 15 minutes, they're like way up here. So you have dramatic increase in the immune cells leaving the spleen, going down to circulation. So they're basically. With time, the exercise with oxygen therapy increases the magnitude of the response. So more cells going out and killing, but also increases the precision. They're not just killing anything, they're killing cancer. Like, they're real precise now. So there's that advantage that you wouldn't get from laying in the bed doing nothing.

Yeah.

You know, plus now you also have increased circulation. You're getting more oxygen into the tumor. So metal lung tumor or something. You're getting. You basically getting reversal of the dysfunction of blood flow. So normally it's kind of like when someone has cancer, you get blood going where you don't want it so it can grow and not enough blood going where you do want it to fight it. And Exercise kind of reverses that. And we're starting to see now evidence from other groups that, hey, exercise volume may be important. Like, this has been known for a hundred years. Just look around. People that exercise have a lower incidence of cancer in general. So it's not like exercise keeps you from ever getting it because there's too many chemicals in the environment to damage DNA for that right now. But it definitely prevents it from kicking in sooner.

And if somebody couldn't exercise due to joint limitation or maybe they're just sick, could you get a somewhat similar effect from, like, intermittent hypoxic training, like using, like, a cell gym or one of these units where you sit next to it and breathe oxygen? That's alternating back and forth between hypoxia and hyperoxia.

So I would say, in general, not the same response, you know, So I guess. So think of it this way. Let's say I have a guy hit by a car. And this guy, hypothetical guy, he can't move for, let's say, spinal cord injury. And he also has cancer. So the way I would approach that is look at some of the classical research that was done. And you'd say, what can he move? Let's say he can move one hand or if we can move a finger. But something I would focus on, I would maybe whether it's a rubber band or a ball, but something that could provide loading or tension for what can be moved, moved while he breathes in oxygen. And I would basically, you know, whether it's a single finger or hand or toe or foot, whatever it is, I would figure out a way to create a movement pattern that he's his resistance and effort and then train the hell out of them.

Yeah.

To get that stimulation.

What about hyperbaric?

So the limitation with hyperbaric is you can't move in hyperbaric. That's where usually you're laying down and then what happens is you don't get many setups. Well, you know, so here's what happens is once you get to a certain pressure and the oxygen is starting to dissolve in the plasma, movement can induce oxygen toxicosis. And so what happens is, if you compare immune responses, hyperbaric is now weird. It's not even on the same, you know, galaxy. It's way down here versus Ewot. So I'm talking to guys that are far more knowledgeable about hyperbaric than I am. I mean, they live 100 days or more, more below, way below underwater. So it's like the true hyperbaric stuff. And talking to those guys and learning from them, like, some of the limitations. It's hard to move a lot when there's that much pressure with oxygen, so. Because then you run into other issues. But in theory, my speculation would be if I could take people and move them and then find the right pressure, maybe I don't need 4 atmospheres or 3 atmospheres. Maybe I can get away one in half, you know, but there should be, in theory, some crossover where the right concentration with the right movement pattern, with the right pressure, we could maybe get oxygen in the tissue faster. Now, having said that, hyperbaric oxygen therapy systems, you know, there's a price point. Not many people can afford them. And I can get oxygen in the tissue with a gas mixture or with, you know, just exercise really fast. So now, if you look at back to, like what, like comparative physiology, what am I getting for what I'm spending? You wind up coming back to exercise with oxygen therapy. Now, keep in mind, I don't sell any systems. I'm not a salesman here.

Yeah, no, I got you.

And we're gonna get a chance to.

Show people some of this stuff shortly. Tom's gonna take me a little tour of Consetta and show you guys some of the cool stuff here. But you've got a team here. Because when I walked in, first person, agreement, the front desk was a naturopathic physician. There's you. Obviously, I'm the dumbest guy who like medical staff.

Yeah. We got a lot more people than just. It's not a one man show. And, you know, so like, even our. Every patient here is a strength coach. Strength coach has two degrees, including a master of Science degree. So it's not your typical.

You say every patient's a strength coach.

Yeah. Yeah. So you can't get stronger if you don't have a guy that knows how to get strong. Right. Just think about that. So you go to. Go to MD Anderson, go to Mayo Clinic, Sloan Kettering, go to any cancer treatment center. And they'll say stupid stuff like, oh, we're going to get you stronger. And you go, well, show me your strength coach. They look at you like you're a crazy person. Yeah, but imagine.

You mean every employee is a strength coach? Not every patient.

Every patient that we have here has a strength coach.

Okay, I got you. I got you.

Yeah, so maybe I misspoke. But basically the point is, you can't help people if you don't have someone who knows what they're doing in that area.

Right.

And so one of the things exercise is Medicine, right? Yeah, it absolutely is. Well, especially you have people coming in in a wheelchair, and then they're walking in three hours, and then they're throwing out the wheelchair.

Wow.

You would think when they go back to the center that they came from that other professionals go without some. It's a miracle. We should do this. And you see it's not done because. Sure. It doesn't cover it, and they can't monetize it.

Yeah.

And that's when you see right away there's a lot of stuff in healthcare that's upside down.

Yeah. Can't monetize movement. Not your tagline.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, you want to take me on a tour and show folks what this is all about? Yeah, let's do it. All right. And again, if you're watching and you want to access the research, the resources, et cetera, go to BenGreenfieldLife.com cause Anta, there'll be plenty more about Tom and what he does there. All right, we are officially here. This is where the magic happens. This is Tom's facility at Causanta, as you can see, chock full of all of the geekiest equipment. And Tom's going to show you some of the cool stuff here.

All right, thanks, man. All right, so this kind of section over here, this is what we call our exercise with oxygen therapy equipment. And so basically took a bunch of the bags and hooked up in series. So that way, if I have, like, a beast that's breathing in a lot of oxygen, they're going to draw from.

Like, you're going to empty all the bags. Yeah, that's why I got to go out to my gym and turn on the bag early before I go out. I don't have big bags like you, but.

Yeah, so basically we have is we have a bunch of concentrators that take room air, concentrate the oxygen, fill up the bags. These bags are roughly 900 to 1,000 liters. So to bet, you know, collectively, we're putting out anywhere from 30 to 90 liters of oxygen a minute. So we fill up a bag, and essentially we have a lot of different cardio pieces of equipment. But when I was testing people, I tested people on a stationary bike. I tested people on a recumbent bike, I tested people on a treadmill. And I found the best immune responses from an elliptical device. Kind of makes sense. More muscle group, arm, leg movement. And then when I tested different ellipticals, what I found is that a lot of people with joint issues and more people could do the Cybex arc Trainer. And keep in mind my data. I'm talking about this. This is stuff I collected like five years ago. So could there be better exercise equipment now? Probably, but just at that point, this is the best we could find. And what I liked is I get some patients that can't stand, so they're gonna be at zero and have some guys that are like, you know, well, borns on the planet, they're at £400. Right.

So they're gonna be real bad NFL football players. Yeah.

Right. So I need, like, in one footprint of space, I need something that can accommodate a wide range of resistance. Now, basically, we start everyone at. We use £400 of resistance for everyone. And then we just lower the percentages that we're using for each person, but we max them out, see where their fitness is. Most people starting in a 25 to 30% of the 400 pound range, and then basically they're breathing in oxygen while they exercise. And then depending on where they are, their first workout, it might be 75 calories, 150 calories, 500 calories, whatever. And then, and while they're doing that, we then will introduce. This is a company called Collagen Techs and they make. They call this the RX3. They call this RX1. Basically, it's very, very powerful light.

Oh, wow. This is like red light therapy that you're using.

Yeah.

While they're exercising. Yeah. Now keep in mind, this is 10 wavelengths. So it's not just red light. So it's basically it's polychromatic light. So think of it, super high energy, much more than you could find normally. And it goes to a quartz crystal that functions like a prism. So, you know, like the prism makes like a rainbow and you can see different wavelengths or colors. So this will break it down to 10. So kind of think of it this way. Company A says, you know, my wavelength is better. Company B says, no, my wavelength is better. We're doing 10, so it won't matter. And what you could see is like, you could literally see, see people sweating like crazy.

So if someone wanted to replicate this at home, if they had a red light panel, it's not going to do as much of this as far as wavelengths are concerned. But they could, like set up a red light panel next to a bicycle or elliptical trainer. And if they have exercises, oxygen therapy, they could, they could do that at the same time.

Yeah.

The main concern you have so like, is distance. Right. So, you know, the energy is inversely proportional to the distance or the radius square so if it's too far back, then you run into question, like, is it meaningful?

You need a pretty powerful device or have as close as possible.

Yeah. So like if you're doing this at home, I would say like, you know, skimpy shorts, right?

Yeah.

No shirt, working out, ideally.

Even like. Actually I should ask you this. Like a lot of companies now, like Lumaflex or Kineon, they're making like wraparound red light devices that you could theoretically like, you know, wear on your legs, around your arms or strap around your back and get like a baby effect of what you're doing here.

Yeah. So I think that's the right direction. I mean ultimately we think of it as, okay, so we'll jump ahead a little bit, but kind of along the lines of what you're just saying. So this is a company called Neuro20. These are basically electrodes and basically think of it like whole body, normal body.

This is like a pull on EMS suit.

Exactly, yeah. So now the difference is that when you see like EMs in the market, what you want to know is, okay, what are the patterns that they're using? Like what's the basis for those patterns? What these guys, guys did very clever. They recorded the electrical firing patterns from top athletes. So the best sprinters, best jumpers, best lifters, and now they got that in here. So basically what's it called again? It's a Neuro 20.

Neuro 20.

Wow. And so basically you, you put on the suit. Now I could stimulate any combination of major muscle groups I want.

I can do this wireless or wired?

No, wireless. You wear the suit and I got like a controller pad.

Okay.

And so you wear this. I could have you on that. And let's just say we want to just rehab the right leg. I could turn everything off and just stimulate the right leg.

Wow.

Or if you say, you know what, I want to do more lower body, like, so I work with a lot of people with spinal cord injury or hip issues. I'd have trouble standing up. So I could literally just do the lower body only. Or if I have a beast like you, I'm going to stimulate every muscle group in your body and you can make it just one.

I've worn that. Have you heard of the catalyst?

Yes.

Before I've worn that. It's. It's hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're using all these little muscles that you wouldn't normally recruit afterwards, side by side.

Most of the guys would say they found this was way more intense. But also, here's the cool part. We got, they have, the company has a patents on all the firing frequency patterns. So we could use it for rehab. And it's like already approved. Like they could show that they could demonstrate like guys come back from rehearsals, rehab faster. They could use it for just strength training. So think of it. Now I have frail patients that were told, don't lift weights, you're going to get hurt. Now they come in here, what am I doing? I'm doing cardio, electrically stimulating them. We're discharging. These are men with terminal conditions and now have no evidence of disease. And they're leaving with 100 pound dumbbell ropes. That's how it should be. That's the model of health.

But you're getting them to that point by using electrical muscle stimulation.

So basically we're helping the brain connect to the body, right, Using electricity. But now imagine you're wearing this while you're doing that stuff. So think of it in 15 minutes. We could stimulate multiple physiological systems at a very high level. So for the guys, like, so you see some clients, like, they're very successful, they're always traveling and they don't have a lot of time. Well, it's nice to have all the gadgets, but. But now you still have to use them, right? And where do you find that time? And so what I figured out is how to stack all these therapies. So I could do stuff in 15 to 30 minutes that very few guys have ever seen done before. And then I could show people like within days getting physically stronger or physically faster. And then we do a lot of fun stuff. So like talk about elite athletes, talk about some of the patients. I've literally had NHL hockey player here training with a woman with pancreatic cancer, terminal pancreatic cancer. And they're working out together and everybody's like, what the hell? And because what people forget is success sets the stage for success. And now what happens is the athlete has an injured ankle, he's rehabbing, the woman's trying to beat pancreatic cancer. They're both training at appropriate fitness levels, getting stronger, and next thing you know, the hockey player staying on the sled telling the older woman, pancreatic cancer, come on old woman, push. So now I love that she gets stronger and she's laughing, having fun and she gets to tell all her friends, I just push NHL hockey player, you know?

Yeah.

So we're leveraging our community.

Are you coming in here at the same time and also drawing bloods, getting biomarkers, some of those things you were talking about when you were in your office.

So we can. So it depends on where they are in their face. So, like, so right at the beginning, we're measuring a lot of stuff Because I basically think of it biochemically speaking. I have no idea what's going on inside of them. So measuring all this stuff objectively, and then as we start seeing, okay, they're improving, they're responding, there may not be as much of a need, you know, so typically you're more concerned, like, when someone's not responding or you have unknowns, Then there's gonna be a lot more effort, if you will, into measuring stuff. But once people are doing fantastic, then typically they're like, hey, let's just ride this wave as far as we can until we need to do something else.

You know, a lot of clinics will use, specifically for patients who are on chemotherapy, something that would. The cytotoxicity of chemo, like ozone for increased oxygenation or hyperthermia. Have you ever had somebody come in who's on chemo and combine, like, an oxygen treatment with that?

Yeah, we would. So what I would say. So first we do very specific tests to look at the genetics of the cancer. We compare that to their germline genetics, so genes they were born with, and we look at the protein pathways that are driving the cancer to spread. And then we're simultaneously looking at the micronutrient status and the environmental chemicals and the pathogens. And so then the tools we would use to enhance the effectiveness of chemo, we depend upon a number of those variables. But I would say, in principle, if someone comes to the door and they never did chemo, whether they're stage zero or stage four, my goal is to get rid of the cancer so they never need chemo or surgery, you know, so that way, because nobody says, hey, let me go on to something I don't need, you know, so what I usually try to do is get them to know evidence of disease in two or three weeks if they've never been treated. Now, if they've already been treated by other centers, then sometimes it's gonna take closer to eight weeks, Because I haven't met any patients yet that have ever been exposed to this level of testing or precision. You know, most of the time, when I see what's been done, there may have been something missed. And then you're not leveraging things the best. So, for example, like, some people have a NRF2 mutation, and if it's not taken into account, you may push cancer one way or another. Or like A lot of times people come in and go, well, I'm gonna go ketogenic. Because carbohydrates feed cancer. And you might say, in theory, there's a lot of evidence to support, but now when we test the cancer in their body, we find that they have a crass mutation and protein and fat drives that cancer. Interesting, right? So now it's kind of like, it'd be kind of like if I said, hey, look, man, I want you to put this oil in your car and you go, dude, I have an E car.

Which mutation is that?

Crass.

Crass mutation. So that would indicate that something like a ketogenic approach would not be.

May not be the best approach. Yeah, you gotta look at it. Like, keep in mind there's like a lot of genes, right?

Yeah.

And so you can't just cherry pick one and say, what? If you gotta look at it in a context, it's no different than in your car. You check the air pressure on all the tires before you decide what you're fixing or filling up with air. So think of it that way. I'm measuring all the genes and then decide what am I doing. I'm not just going to measure like 2 or 3. So just on that science alone, it's like when with breast cancer, ER positive, PR positive, HER2. Well, why are you measuring three when there's like 22,000? That doesn't sound very thorough, you know, and so what we try to do is be a little bit more thorough and precise.

And you must have to use software, though, to dig through 22,000 genes.

Well, so it's collaborations everywhere. The group. So think of it as, I'm kind of like, you know, the nerd that knows a lot of these things. But I'm not data mining every single gene.

Right.

So each lab has their own AI platform and then where the gap is connecting the platforms.

Right.

So like one guy does germline genetics, the other guy does oncogenetics, but there ain't one guy doing both. So I got to sometimes have to take this data, take that data, talk to a few more PhDs or a few more MDs, reconcile like, what makes the most sense, and then we're taking some action.

Okay. Speaking of air, you know, I've seen some people use this type of training in conjunction with hypoxic training, which supposedly flushes the cells with oxygen when you induce a state of hypoxia and then hit hyperoxia. Are you doing that also, like flipping back and forth between hypoxia hyperoxia.

That's so the reason I'm keeping mind, I'm dealing with people that already have poor oxygen delivery. And you also have to keep in mind that. So more than 70% of the clients have comorbidities. So they may be high risk for stroke, high risk for heart disease, some other pre existing conditions.

So you don't want like that vasoconstrictive hypoxic effect in someone like that.

Not initially. Okay, so that's. So the initial goal was let's get him to a thousand. Right. If I get him to a thousand calories then. And the cancer's gone, you know, now I'm dealing with a different person than they started. So if, let's say, if I had, let's say, let's say a non athlete, I'm sorry, rather an athlete with no evidence of cancer. We're assessing them and then we're looking at what's the best way to bring them up. And so they may be maybe like hypoxic training combined with hyperoxic training might just be simple breath holding. Hold as long as you can and then start breathing. While I got this oxygen flooding in. Right now we're looking at some interesting things like so we have blood flow restriction training, weight training. And so think of it. So essentially here's the catch that you won't hear a lot of guys tell you. What makes muscle grow faster, low oxygen. What makes the immune system respond better, high oxygen. So now basically what do you want everybody to do? You want anybody to do both. But now given that, how do I do it safely for each person, you know, and then keep in mind like your background, you have a lot more fitness stuff, whereas more like strongman stuff where it's just like more 1 RMs, you know. So there might be stuff you could get away with, given your history. But I try that. I'm breaking down.

Right.

So I got to figure out where people are and then kind of get them where they are to where it could be safer for them and then we could go crazy and do whatever.

Would you ever use blood flow restriction combined with this stuff?

Oh yeah, all the time. Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean that's similar to like that. Have you seen the Vasper machine before? It's like cold blood flow restriction grounding and then a lot of people will use oxygen with something like that.

Yeah. So we're sort of the way that we would sort of integrate stuff here. We would definitely. So the poor man's approach, we just buy Velcro Cinch straps from Amazon. Just buy them. Six bucks, twelve bucks. Put them on top of thighs, top of arms. Just pull that puppy as hard as you can, take it and then cinch it. You can't control tension, but it's like you could feel the blood building up in your legs. You know it's working.

Yeah. And then you just don't get great venous return compared to like those fancy Katsu bands.

No, definitely don't. But here's the thing is they're so inexpensive. You break, no one cries.

Yeah, no, that's. That was my workout this morning. Cheap. Cheap BFR bands from Amazon. I go for a walk and I do push ups. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, they're great tools and they're easy to travel with. You don't have to worry about, you know, oh, should I forgot something or I don't have a battery or power adapter or something. And then if I get people like, if I have like a pro athlete and I need something a little bit more like, remember, if I got guys that could barely stand, I don't need a lot.

Right.

To get some mileage. If I have a guy that's, you know, like a John Welborne or some other beast, then I need something that's maybe a little bit more high tech that could be more precise for those guys.

Yeah, yeah. Anything else interesting that you're doing in here? I mean, obviously this is the main full meal deal. You got the weights over here. I see PMF back here.

Yeah. So different things. So essentially, think of it. Well, basically what we did is we put the thing of the hospital is in the gym. Think of it like that. And so now whether I need like loading with a dumbbell or loading with a cable, we'll play with different ways of transmitting load or force through the body. Body. Because remember, I'm dealing with a lot of people with different issues. So we'll do a lot of things like. Okay, so one strategy might be lifting with a carbon polymer bar like the Tsunami bars and things like that.

I don't know what that is. Carbon polymer bar.

I'll show you over here. So basically think like bamboo training. So let's see, where did I put it? So lot of Cabo spooky gadgets. I like those guys and their stuff.

It looks like they make good stuff. Yep.

So, okay, so the bar is made from a carbon polymer. So under load. So like right now it doesn't bend much, right?

Yeah.

But under load it flexes and bow and bows more. Right, interesting. So now what happens is, think about it. So, like, say if you're benching. Right, Right. And you come down. So you would do like, maybe like this would be better for like pressing movements. So you come down and when the load hits you with a standard bar, it's like a chromosteel alloy type of property. The loading is borne by the joints at end range, either extreme. And now with something like this, you come down, the bar bends away from you so you don't feel that hard impact in your joint. So guys with arthritis, they love this stuff because they could train hard and your joints don't ache afterwards.

Yeah.

So whether you're fully extending or fully, you know, coming like at the end range of motion of a bench press, the bar bends away with you, so absorbs a lot of energy. So as you then come back, the return is working with you.

Yeah. What's this one called?

Tsunami.

Tsunami, yeah.

So this one, I think it tells you don't lift more than 170 pounds per side.

Yeah.

So now, is that because of my damaged bore? So now. Yeah, I'll just throw it back in here. And then we got a lot of different. So think of like. So whether it's Spain, Czech Republic, Russia, Japan, we have gadgets from all over the world that we could put on people. So as an example, you've seen. You heard of Emsculpt, right?

Yeah, Emsculpt, like the electrical muscle stimulation for incontinence.

No, no, but that's not. So Emcella.

Yeah, that's when you sit on.

So we got M Sculpt. Same company, BTL makes one. Basically, the M Sculpt got attention for like, you put on your abs and your glutes, right?

Yeah, I've tried it.

So when we got that, I saw immediately I could help athletes jump higher. And so we had guys using to increase their bench press and jump higher. And then company comes in and goes, it's not supposed to be used that way. I'm like, who said I own it now? I can do whatever the hell I want. Cause it's in my building. Right. And you just basically, if you have. If you're curious, you could play around with a lot of these gadgets and develop new applications for them that, you know, just. Most guys aren't thinking when they're selling it because they don't have time. They gotta get the next sale done and stuff like that. And so just.

You were telling me you do something interesting. Red light combined with pemf.

Is that right?

Yeah. So let Me see. All right, so basically. So this is a device. It's called Hercules laser. And this part's called a multi lumen. So basically, each pad is 80 watts of power. So I could run, you know, 80 to 160 watts of power around a joint. So think of it as the light comes out, goes so far, then I take the pulse, and you know, they have a lot of different attachments, but let's say the red light is going on my hand. Right. So lights coming down into it.

Yeah.

I could tend to pulse, put it over it, and I use the magnetic energy to drive it.

So now people using the magnetic energy from the PMF to drive the red light. With the PMF stacked on top of the red light.

Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah. And if I try. So I'll have guys try one or try the other. And I'm like, I don't know, maybe it helped, maybe didn't.

Yeah.

I combine the two to like. Holy, that stuff works.

That's interesting because I. I actually have one of these soft, flexible red light beds that have been laying on top of my PEMF mat that's just like this. And you feel incredible when you get up from it. Yes.

So what I've done here. So we have a light bed there. And then what I can do is take one of the attachments. The light's coming this way and the magnetic energy is coming that way. So it's not quite the same. You really want them in the same direction. Coming through. Problem is, I love the pulse, but it's a very powerful tool, and it could blow other gadgets easily. Like sometimes if it's too close, the energy here will blow a circuit board.

I've done that before.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's an expensive learning process.

I can't run my sauna and my hyperbaric and my PEMF at the same time without somebody not being able to cook a meal upstairs. Yeah.

So this guy here, whatever the hell Gene is, the owner of that company, whatever he really did, I could blow this soul through it and doesn't damage it at all. So Gene's an older guy. He's pretty rough. He's like, that's cause you're buying cheap shit. I was like, gene, it's not cheap shit. This is expensive stuff. It works real well, but everybody else is not thinking about. No one builds something, worried about another device interfering with it. Right. It's just not part of the process. However, redesigned it, it's like impervious.

Yeah.

You know.

Wow.

So basically, all I'M doing right now is getting you a little warmed up. Just get a little sweat going. The sweat's going to act as a conduction.

Okay.

For the electrodes that are inside the system.

Gotcha.

And then once you're a little sweaty.

It'S like a toaster in a bathtub.

That's good to do. They're going to have some fun today. Now, I think old cowboy movies where they're shooting the guy's feet saying dance, you know, that's what I'm kind of thinking.

Oh, geez. It's all right. All I got to do is go sit on plane after this, Tom.

That's right. That's right. Well, you're going to love me. You hate me after this, Right? There's no way between.

I usually hate people after ams.

Gotta admit, I want to do next, I'm going to turn on some light just so you get a visual of how the light would.

Would work. Okay.

So give me one moment.

Light that would penetrate clothing. Yeah.

You could have a fur coat and jeans, and it'll go through it. Wow.

Is that based on the power of the red light?

The power to different wavelengths. So maybe you got 10. And some go pretty deep. And what I've also done, I've tested this. We have a chair version, and I've tested the chair version, and I can verify it raises hormone levels in men. So, like, there's a lot of ways we could leverage this stuff. So I'm going to do now I was going to go, like, lower back area, and you'll feel like it's getting hotter around that area pretty soon.

No, I know what. It wasn't getting harder. I was choosing the incline instead of the resistance.

It's like another two minutes, and you.

Should be pretty good. Yep. Yeah. I can feel the heat from that light. That's powerful.

Yeah. And it's not even a minute, right? It's like 30 seconds.

Yeah. You can feel almost instantly, honestly.

And I could even get it close.

Like sunlight.

Yeah. Like music. Guys. Like, dude, it's like staring into the sun. Don't stare at it.

Yeah.

While you're doing that, I was going to try to get this going. Maybe slow down just a smidgen because I got to plug this in. Okay, cool.

You're able to control this suit?

Yeah. So basically, that's providing power to the suit and it's the receiver. So then I have an app on an iPad, and I connect to that guy. So I'm going to start. You know, basically, let's See here. All right, so we're going to. Basically we'll just say strength.

Okay. You got.

You got like, hundreds of options. We're going to just pick something simple. I just say 10 minutes. Just because you got to travel.

Yep. Gives me time to get to the airport.

Yep.

Without throwing a blood plot in the plane.

All right, so I'm going to start. So first thing I'm going to do is going to turn on all the muscles. I'm going to go up slow. If it feels like pins and needles, then you're basically not sweating.

Sweat. Yeah, I can tell. I don't have too much sweat yet.

Okay. Let me know if you start feeling any tingling.

I can feel a little bit.

So is it a pinch and needle? Does it feel a little bit more like.

It's so light. I can't even feel that much.

Okay.

Yeah, it's a little pin needly slightly.

All right. I'm gonna wait another minute or two to get a little sweaty, and then I'll just keep increasing it.

Okay.

So I'm at like three right now.

So it's pretty low. Yeah.

But the idea is. So once they're sweat.

Sweat.

Then the electrode makes more contact surface.

Spray it down the water. You could.

So would I.

Like, that's what I've done with the catalyst suit before.

Yeah. So what I'll do is a couple of options. One, I just jump in the shower.

Wet the whole suit. Right.

And that saves me time.

Yeah.

But. Or if. If I don't want to get that wet for whatever reason. I just like five minutes, maybe ten, you know?

Yeah.

Then it's sweaty enough.

You probably sweat faster than I do.

All right, try it a little bit more.

Let me know.

How's it feeling?

Feel a little more. Yeah. Still not a ton of sweat, but I can. I can feel some of the muscles contracting a little bit.

All right, I'm gonna start now. Increasing a little bit. Let me know if it gets too strong in any muscle.

I will.

Now your. Some of like the abs in the back if it's not pushed up.

Yeah. It's not super snug. So I probably won't feel that much.

Yeah.

If it's not enough to at least give folks a little demo of what it looks like.

Yep. So what we would do is so sometimes some of the athletes have a big chest waist differential.

Yeah.

So we put a band around like a velcro band around the waist.

Gotcha. So it touches. That makes sense.

Yep. Yeah.

I got a very wide shoulder to waist ratio.

Yeah. So then what we'll do is I'm just going to turn it up just a little bit. Get a. Let me know when your quads are feeling it.

It's pretty cool how you can adjust arms and legs separately.

Yeah. So I can go left, right and left or you know, independently.

Yeah, I like that.

Well, what's kind of interesting, so a lot of people have had like a head injury or brain injury or something, or fall even.

Yeah.

They'll say my right side is great. My left side not feeling it, so I can bias it and put more stimulation on the side. Not getting it. And then you'll see workout after workout that all of a sudden it starts catching up. So I'm going to now make it a little bit stronger in the legs.

Yeah, now I'm starting to feel the legs. Yep.

So we're about four and a half minutes in, huh? And then now. So I didn't have you breathing the oxygen because we're talking, right. And obviously it would interfere, but yeah, like if you were like training for real, I'd have you breathing in, oxygen mask on.

Yeah, yeah.

And then giving your background, there's a lot of like latitude. So we could explore like sprint intervals. Yeah, we explore different things.

Yeah.

And then, you know, to joke, like. So we teach a lot of the patients here, you know, how do you make anything feel easier or lighter? Just do something harder.

It's all relative.

Yeah, it is. So do a hard spray now try 30%. And it feels like nothing's there, you know?

Yep.

All right, so coming down. You got four minutes to go. You want to ride it out.

Strength kind of goes back and forth, huh.

So in terms of like, what do you mean back?

Like it'll like contract and then relax.

Right, Exactly. So what I did for you, I just put a 60 second contraction and a one second relaxation.

I was gonna say the relaxation period seemed to go by pretty quickly.

That's right.

Yeah.

Like you shouldn't even working.

Cackling like a torture chamber master.

Well, I was, I did want you to be like, you know, I saw Tom's place. I didn't get any results.

You know, you turned the legs a little bit then.

Okay.

Okay.

I want you to go back home and say, I'm not sure if that guy's all there, but I definitely got results.

Fond remembrance of Tom Inkland.

That's right. I'm never going back, but at least my quads are bigger.

You tell me when it's about right there.

Okay. It's pretty good. A little Bit more. We're at Neanderthal level, so you're almost there, man.

Oh, there's that one second relaxation kick in.

Yeah.

Like you. I blinked. Relaxation's over.

Yeah.

So. So when I do this, I put basically no relaxation, Right?

Yeah.

So it's like contract.

Just consistent reset.

Yeah, well, because it does give you.

A lot of results in a short period of time. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

So, like, this part of me, like, if I was competing, I would do what it takes, like, terms of training. But where I am right now, I have a lot of responsibility for other people's lives.

Yeah.

So I'm kind of like, okay, in 15 minutes or less.

Yep.

How could I get some results? And then.

Right.

I'll try to do it maybe like a free. I get better results from frequency than I do from volume right now, particularly because I have a lot of neural issues and Arthritis. Arthritis issues.

So, yeah.

Shorter times, I'm not. I don't beat myself up too much, you know? So you get about three and a half minutes to go.

Okay.

Maybe like, every 30 seconds, turn up a slight notch. Let's see if I can.

Yeah.

Power it out.

Okay.

Can do anything for three minutes.

Sure. So you got nine seconds, and I'll crank it up.

Okay.

All right. Ready? Here we go. How's that?

A little more.

Yeah, I just went up, like, two units.

Yep. Just maybe keep doing that like, every 30 seconds.

Sure. I'll just keep doing it till I see you cry. All right.

Yeah.

Once you see me squirming, you'll know, like.

What kind of dance move is that? I haven't seen it before.

Yeah, the. What they call the electric dance exercise.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Electric boogie. Yeah, I can tell. This would be probably, like, slightly easier with oxygen, huh?

Well, definitely for the muscles, you know, Definitely for, like, the brain. Like, you're not gonna. Definitely not get as fatigue. But the idea behind the oxygen is to create a temporary environment where you could train maybe way harder than normal. I could take people in 12 days, get them results I haven't had in years.

Wow. Yeah.

And the reason is we keep pushing and pushing, but safely.

Right.

Yeah. Honestly, I think it's just as impressive, the results you're getting with disease.

Well, it's. I mean, everybody, wherever they are, whatever they're dealing with, like, no matter what you're dealing with, when you come in, you want to be better. Right. Regardless of the diagnosis, you're pretty good, man. You're almost at 60. That's. That's probably the highest I've Ever done.

Oh, really?

Yeah. So we're. Right now there's no data on this point, right?

Oh, yeah.

Venturing to Mars, you're like, what happens is there, we just don't know. Right.

Then loses his tacos that he had for lunch. Wait, everything feels good except that left leg.

Yeah.

Which is honestly where I've had some knee issues in the past. That left leg, you can feel it's a little bit weaker.

So is the sigma weaker or the. The contraction weaker?

The strength of that left leg. Like, I'm getting way more drive with my right leg.

So then without. So what I would do is I.

Would play a minute and 20.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So right now push through. So right now 62.

Yeah.

Do I just leave it there to the end. Oh, you want to go up?

How much time do I have?

You got just about. Just over a minute.

Just over a minute. Let's go 65 for this last minute. Let's see how that goes.

Here we go. I'm starting to like you more and more, man.

Not quite a walk in the park, so. All right.

If you feel really good tomorrow. It was my idea. If you really saw it, it was your idea.

Yeah. I can tell if I'll feel a little bit, but yeah, between that and my BFR training this morning.

Yeah, that's right. This is like a double header for you.

The BFR doesn't. Doesn't beat you up too much. It's a great setup, though.

Yeah.

You're giving people plenty of ideas here.

Sure.

It's gonna be a bunch of gyms that want to add something like this to their facility.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Especially well the neuro 22.

What's so cool?

This guy.

Yeah.

Like, you don't have, like, the. The level of dysfunction a lot of people I have work with. But imagine if you have trouble walking, they actually have a program to help.

You walk like a normal person.

Wow. Yeah, I'm using that right now.

Like a gay retraining type of program.

Exactly, exactly.

So it's just a bunch of. Of different settings on that thing.

Yep.

Wow.

All right, man. You did it.

All right. Yeah, done.

I just turned it off. Hopefully you don't feel anything now. Still going.

Won't shut off.

It's stuck. That's the permanent. So you go over 60, it stays on permanently.

Yeah.

Wow.

It's a penalty of wow.

Well, for folks watching, I mean, obviously, it's a pretty incredible thing setup. And, you know, there's a lot of information on Tom's website at Causenta along with other interviews that he's done. But I really wanted to get you guys thinking about ways that we can go beyond just, you know, pumping iron, going on a walk, riding a bicycle, all that's great. But when you introduce a little bit of better science like this, you know, oxygen, light, electromagnetism into your fitness protocol or your disease management protocol, your performance protocol, you know, I've known about what Tom's doing for quite some time. It's very cool to see what he's put together here at the facility. So definitely recommend you check him out. I'm gonna put all the show notes@bengreenfieldlife.com causent if you like Tom, let me know. We'll do another interview at some point, come to Scottsdale and Phoenix quite a bit. So if you guys want to take a deeper dive in the meantime, visit his website. Tom, thanks so much, man. I think.

Thank you.

But I'll tell you for sure if I thank you in the morning. Thanks for watching you guys.

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