Dirty Secrets Of The Supplement Industry, Lucid Dreaming, Smart Drugs, Hurricane Training & More: The Ryan Munsey Podcast.

In this episode of the Ben Greenfield.

Fitness Show, Mark Sisson said it best. You know you're not going to lose your fitness in three days if you have to travel, if you have to miss a few workouts, you're just not going to lose your fitness. So I use the same kind of philosophy with nutrition and with fitness. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to not suck. Anytime insulin's present, whether we're talking about the morning fasted state or post workout or dinner, anytime we have insulin present cannot oxidize stored body fat for fuel.

He's an expert in human performance and nutrition, voted America's top personal trainer and one of the globe's most influential people in health and fitness. His show provides you with everything you need to optimize physical and mental performance. He is Ben Greenfield.

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Hey folks, it's Ben Graham Greenfield. And when it comes to a wide variety of topics, including smart drugs, lucid dreaming, unconventional strength training or cardiovascular training techniques, and even dirty secrets in the supplements industry, my guest today is the guy who's got the inside scoop on all this and a lot more. His name is Ryan Muncie and Ryan and I have had a chance to hang out at a few different health and fitness events. He is a former fitness model, which means that he's way more good looking than I am and can probably build muscle a lot faster. He's also a gym owner turned author, speaker, and self professed biohacker, like most of us are these days, I think. And he has a degree. He has a degree in food science and human nutrition from Clemson University. He's a mental and physical performance coach and he's also the chief optimizer, whatever that means, at a company called Natural Stacks. I've actually been on their podcast before and in the show notes to this episode, I'll put a link to that podcast if you want to go listen to it. Ryan has his own podcast through Natural Stacks. It's called the Optimal Performance Podcast. So you can check all that out and everything else that Ryan and I are going to wax about today. If you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com Ryan and that's spelled the way that normal people spell Ryan, R, y a n BenGreenfieldFitness. So Ryan, welcome To the show, man.

Ben, thanks for having me. Can't wait to dig in and like you said, wax about all of these cool topics.

That's right. And we might as well start with the most important thing of the entire day. And that would be breakfast. I guess that'd be a great way for people to get to know you. I have heard rumor on the street that you think breakfast is the most important meal of the day to skip. Not the most important meal of the day, as most people would say and as most nutritionists would say. So let's start here. Ryan, why the heck don't you eat breakfast, dude?

You know, I think it's interesting the way you kind of intro that I would say that breakfast is the most important meal of the day because you have the opportunity to capitalize or completely screw up what you're trying to accomplish. So I think one of the things that I want to make sure people understand about my stance on anything is that I think you always have to ask yourself, why are you doing this? What are you trying to accomplish? What is your goal? So, you know, if I'm a 16 year old high school athlete, I'm probably not going to be skipping breakfast because body composition is most likely not my number one priority.

Assuming you're not a gymnast or a cross country runner.

Right, Right. So for most of the rest of us, where, I mean, let's face it, we live in America where 60 to 70% of the population is overweight or borderline obese, depending on which study you look at. So, you know, obviously we're doing something that doesn't fit with our biology. And if body composition is your main priority, meaning fat loss, if you are trying to optimize brain function, whether that's for entrepreneurship or you just want to feel good at work, there are things that we can do in the morning that allow us to burn more body fat for fuel and keep our minds clear, sharp and focused for a hugely productive day. A lot of this stems from the hormonal environment that we wake up to. So if our hormones are functioning properly, cortisol peaks when we wake up. And it's this cortisol peak that actually helps us wake up and get out of bed. And this is. You may have discussed this on previous episodes of your show where you've talked about hormones and the importance of cortisol and how it impacts sleep, because I know you're big on sleep. I've seen your Snapchat where you talk to people about how to hack the hotel room and everything. So I'm sure that that's something that you've covered. If it's not, then we can go into that.

Oh, no, no. I'm flattered that you actually stalked me on Snapchat. And, yeah, we definitely are obsessed with sleep on this show. And so, yeah, I have mentioned before that cortisol peaks in the morning when you awake, as you're alluding to. But what does this have to do with breakfast?

So one of the worst things that you can do when cortisol is at its peak is introduce insulin. At the same time, cortisol is the stress hormone. And, like, we've just kind of set the stage that peaks in the morning and it helps you up, regulate blood pressure so that you don't pass out when you stand up. And it kind of gives you that energy to get going and start your day and get out of bed. Which is why, you know, side note, if people have issues falling asleep or have issues waking up, that's a clear sign that, you know, there's a disruption in your cortisol rhythms. So when you wake up, cortisol peaks. The hormonal cascade that follows is one that you know as cortisol peaks. Then we have these other hormones that enable us to burn body fat for fuel. So I like to kind of consider this the perfect storm, very much like. Like the movie the Perfect Storm. So you have these hormones that absolutely set the stage to burn body fat for fuel. So cortisol peaks, and then as it does, glucagon is. Is released and it stimulates the release of glycogen from. If you have glycogen stored in your muscles, then you could burn stored glycogen. Or if you don't, then your body would be burning body fat for fuel. Especially if you're a fat adapted person, like a Mark Sisson or Ben Greenfield. A lot of the things that we talk about in, you know, you and I have very similar ways that we talk about eating, very similar protocols and stuff. So when, if you think about the average breakfast, whether it's oatmeal or even the bull, like corn flakes and orange juice and things like that, no matter how good the carbohydrate, it is always broken down into glucose. That is the usable energy substrate. That's the usable form. So. So whether you eat oatmeal or corn flakes, if you eat a carbohydrate in the morning, it is broken down into glucose. When glucose hits your bloodstream, insulin will be released. When insulin and cortisol are both present. You are never going to burn fat for fuel. That's best case scenario. Worst case scenario, you are actually triggering your body to store body fat. So anytime insulin is present, fat oxidation does not occur.

And just to jump in here, you mentioned corn flakes and other obviously carbohydrate containing foods, but protein is insulinogenic too, is it not?

It is. It is, absolutely. Which is why, and we can get into this, there's like, there are different variations of bulletproof coffee. Some people put collagen or other types of protein in their coffee in the morning. I don't do that. I actually do not have any protein until later in the day. So you're absolutely right. Protein can be insulinogenic. You want to introduce nothing into your system that will produce that insulin spike. So that is a very good point. If this is what you're trying to follow. Again, you know, it's goal dependent. This may not be for everybody, but I think it is something that works for most people.

Okay, so basically where we're at right now, just to kind of catch the listeners up in case everyone's head is spinning with the biochemistry, is what you're saying, Ryan, is that when you wake up, you have a natural spike in cortisol. And if you pair that natural spike in cortisol with an increase in your insulin levels from, say, eating lots of glucose or carbohydrates or protein for that matter, that you would potentially shut down your body's natural ability to burn fat in the morning by instead pairing the increase in insulin with the increase in blood glucose that cortisol is already going to cause. Based off the fact that cortisol kind of mobilizes storage glycogen into the bloodstream.

Yeah, So, I mean, because cortisol is a catabolic hormone, that means that it's, it's used to break things down so bigger things into smaller things for usable forms of energy. That could either be glycogen into glucose, which is a process called gluconeogenesis, or if you're fat adapted, then it's going to oxidize, you know, stored adipose tissue or fat that's, you know, in your body that it can use.

Okay, okay, so. So I get what, what you're saying is if we introduce some kind of like exogenous of glucose, for example, into the body, that the free fatty acids that get released by cortisol wouldn't necessarily get burnt and that the sugar would get burnt instead.

Well, that's. Yeah. So anytime insulin's present, whether we're talking about the morning fasted state or post workout or dinner. Anytime we have insulin present, we cannot oxidize stored body fat for fuel. And this is on a bigger picture, what we want to look at with like, let's say you followed. So I know one of the things that, that we've talked about before was, you know, kind of my overall view on how to eat. And I guess maybe it'll help out to help now to kind of zoom out. I always like to tell people if the, if the bulletproof diet and carb backloading had a child, it would be the Muncie method. And that's how I eat. So a lot of the science that we're going over and we're talking about right now is science that helped form the template that is the bulletproof diet and the template that is carb backloading. Both of those diets are built on the premise that we are managing and manipulating insulin and other hormones to elicit the response that we want. And that's really all. I mean, that is the premise of biohacking, right? It's taking control of your body and doing things in a certain way to get the adaptation or the response that we want so that we can perform, feel, look, however we want.

Okay, got it. So basically what you're saying is if we look at something like the bulletproof diet, which is encouraging you to be in a state of ketosis and to primarily consume for the most part fats and caffeine. When you wake up with this concept of carb backloading, which would mean you save all your carbohydrates till the end of the day, when in a post workout state, your insulin sensitivity is going to be high and you're going to shove carbohydrates into muscle tissue or into liver tissue, that your approach to breakfast is kind of based around that, that you don't want to get insulinogenic in the morning, you don't want to introduce a lot of carbohydrates in the morning, you don't even want to introduce a lot of protein in the morning. So at the risk of destroying everybody's infatuation with bacon and eggs or big green smoothies upon waking, what would you have for breakfast? Would you just not have anything at all and just completely fast until lunch?

So I practice a form of intermittent fasting. What works best for me is bulletproof coffee in the morning. And then I have usually one large meal a day somewhere between 12 and 4pm it just depends on the day. I don't get caught up in exactly what have that meal. Lately, I have been experimenting with ketosis. So I'm not having any carbs. I'm playing with a few different exogenous ketones. You've just had a huge ketone ketosis podcast. We're going to do something similar on our show, but before we recorded it, I wanted to play with a few different types. So I only mentioned that because the last few months, I've been taking in exogenous ketones first thing in the morning to see, you know, what effect that has. But, you know, I don't eat breakfast. So I wake up, I do bulletproof coffee or the ketones, and then later in the day, I have one large meal. If I were to eat breakfast, it would be a low carb breakfast.

Low carb and low protein. Based off what you've just described, I.

Would say low to moderate protein. So, like, my favorite breakfast. And for a lot of the people that I work with, the best breakfast that I've seen is something like three to five whole eggs, depending on the person, because you get anywhere from 20 to 30 grams of protein and a decent amount of fat. Add to that, either you could do a greens shake or some type of greens. I'm a big fan of doing sauerkraut at that meal because it helps with digestion. And that meal tends to actually be pretty light in my stomach. And for a lot of other people. I know that kind of sounds counterintuitive if you think about eggs and sauerkraut as being a light meal, but it is, and it gives you enough fuel to kind of get going. And it's not incredibly insulinogenic.

Got it. Okay, cool. So, you know, a big part of this, I guess, comes down to waking up and being in that state where you're not necessarily starved, you're not doing a huge hard workout, and you're just basically having fats like a fatty cup of coffee for breakfast. That's your strategy?

That's my strategy. Right. And I think whether people do a meal or intermittent fasting or bulletproof fasting or whatever it is, I think the takeaway here is don't eat carbohydrates early in the day.

Yeah, yeah.

You save them. If you're ketogenic, obviously you're not eating carbohydrates at all. And if you are eating carbohydrates, again, like, look at either the bulletproof diet or carb backloading. They're putting the carbs later in the day because we know that our body actually responds to them better later in the day as opposed to early in the morning, which is kind of what that bro science has always been. Or for the last 10 years it was like, hey, wake up and eat a bowl of oatmeal. Which we know from looking at the hormonal profile in our body that that's not optimal.

Yeah. And I don't necessarily personally follow any hard and fast rule. What I mean by that is most days, and I've talked about this before on podcasts, I really don't eat for two to three hours. When I get up, I'll have a cup of coffee and that's it. I don't even put anything in the coffee aside from occasional like turmeric or vanilla or something like that. But I don't put calories at all in my coffee. And then 10am or so in the mid morning I put a bunch of vegetables in a blender with some coconut milk and some nut butter and I have a green smoothie with a bunch of fat. But there are some days where, let's say I am traveling and I'm going to a conference and I know that I might be go, go, go and not have a chance to eat for a long time. Sometimes I will have something substantial for breakfast, or sometimes I'll be in a social situation where there's a nice brunch at the hotel and I'm with my family and we want to go out for brunch at the hotel and we'll just go punish everything at brunch from the Japanese miso soup in one corner of the brunch to the bacon and eggs in another. So I think it kind of depends. We don't necessarily, and I don't want to bore you, the listener thinking that we're a couple of orthorexic guys who never get laid and who just sit here fretting over what we're going to have for breakfast or not have for breakfast each morning. But it's interesting to get that perspective because I know you've written an article about this, Ryan, and I will link to that article because you delve into growth hormone release that occurs when you don't eat breakfast and some other kind of fascinating things. So for those of you who want more of Ryan's thoughts on breakfast and dieting, I will link to that article. But before I move into what I wanted to ask you about Ryan, it sounds like you were going to throw something in.

I do, because you mentioned we talked about corn flakes and one of the reasons that I Always use that as the example. And it's funny that you mentioned that we're not dorks who don't get laid. Cornflakes were invented. So cornflakes are made, manufactured by Kellogg. And this is an interesting thing that you can link to in the show notes if you want, and maybe your listeners may find this really fascinating.

I think I know what you're going to talk about.

So, so the original Kellogg's place was a, it was a sanitarium and the, the brother of the guy who started the cereal company was, you know, ran the sanitarium. But the, the cereal, Kellogg's Cornflakes were actually invented as a way to reduce testosterone so that it would prevent masturbation.

Really? With the idea being that the carbohydrates from the cornflakes would reduce testosterone and thus lower your sex drive.

Yes, that is the origin of cornflakes. And today, if you go to the Kellogg office, they still have in their lobby like a shrine to the original sanitarium.

Good old Mr. Kellogg. All right, well, there you have it. If you yourself want to go on your own anti masturbation crusade, eschew having cereal for breakfast. But Ryan, and hopefully this is not considered to be a segue from masturbation. But I also want to talk about lucid dreaming, because I know you're into lucid dreaming. You study. You've got an interesting article on lucid dreaming. Tell me about why you're into lucid dreaming and what you personally do to hack yourself into having lucid dream dreams at night.

So I think this is another area where you and I, we're kind of kindred spirits. We find these topics that we find interesting. And it's not enough to just read about it or learn about it. We want to experience it. And I actually had a guy named Ryan Hurd on our podcast and he is a sleep expert and he talked a lot about lucid dreaming. And when he started to talk about it and I started to research it before that podcast, and one of my questions to him was, you know, this sounds a lot like the movie Inception. And you know, is this what it is? And he said, yeah, as a matter of fact, whoever directed or wrote that movie was, was spot on. They were fascinated by it. And that's a really accurate depiction of what lucid dreaming is.

Where and what is Inception coming from a guy who doesn't, doesn't really watch movies.

So it was a movie with Leonardo DiCaprio and basically they were trying to plant the seeds of an idea in someone's head, and they had to, you know, go into his dream and, you know, do it that way. So, you know, maybe you can't control other people's dreams with lucid dreaming, but the idea of lucid dreaming is that you can control your own dreams. And I just thought that was cool. I've never thought about trying to control my own dreams and see, you know, what happens and where they go. So, you know, I was trying to press Ryan when he was on our show to give me some and our listeners some ideas on, you know, how we can do this. And, you know, obviously there's a couple of supplements that you can take that help. But the number one thing that he suggested was to simply put a notebook next to your bed, a pen and paper. Don't use your cell phone and the note, because that's too much blue light in the middle of the night. But if you do find yourself dreaming, to just start to be aware of it. And that's the first step, to be aware that you are dreaming.

Yeah, but you're asleep, Right?

Right. It's a very weird thing to start to work on. And that's why the first step has to be to kind of become aware of it. And once you can do that, you know, then you start journaling, you start writing down your dreams. So if you wake up or in the morning, if you don't wake up at night, and when you do wake up, to write down what you do remember. And it's a process. Nobody's an expert at it the first time they do it. So you kind of have to expect and anticipate that you're going to struggle with this and that you'll have to work at it. But you can really start to have very vivid dreams. You can start to remember them, and then the next phase of that is to actually start to be able to kind of control them. I have not gotten to that point yet, so I'm far from a lucid dreaming expert. I just know that that is something that you can do. I've actually stopped.

So you're just keeping a notepad beside the bed, and you are trying to remember to wake up out of your dream and write on that notepad what it is that you're dreaming.

Not necessarily trying to wake up, but if you do, and when you do wake up, to try to recall and write it down before you forget. So that's kind of like for some people, that might take a week. For other people, that might take six weeks to master. And whenever you master that, then you move on to the next phase, which would be, you know, when you are dreaming, to be aware of it and then to start trying to manipulate your dream.

What about like. Like things that you can consume prior to bed. Like, I've heard people talk, for example, about the use of this resistant starch that some people use as a diet, prebiotics like green banana starch to help feed the probiotics in your gut. From what I've heard, consumption of those type of things prior to bed can also cause lucid dreaming. Is that true or are there other things that you found that you could eat or consume before bed to induce lucid dreaming?

Yeah, so we actually at Natural Stacks, one of our products is prebiotic, and it's a resistant starch complex in. It really, really has a profound positive impact on sleep quality. So it's definitely one of those things where, you know, some people have reported much more vivid dreams. Other people just say, you know, hey, I slept like a rock.

Could you just eat a green banana, like an unripe banana?

You would not get the, you know, all of the resistant starch that you want. No.

Okay, what about. What about, like, pills? Like, are there specific. I've heard people talk about, for example, alpha brain from Onnit being able cause lucid dreaming. Are there specific components in that or things like it that are actually causing lucid dreaming or increasing the chances that you're going to lucid dream?

You know, it's interesting. Choline is a big part of alpha brain. Alpha GPC is what's in there. So choline can. Because it increases mental processing speed, it can provide a little bit more of a vivid dream. There's probably. That's a complex. So there's probably some other things in there that impact your dream state. The big supplement for lucid dreaming is actually galantamine or galantamine. And that's one that I think if somebody wanted to really experiment with lucid dreaming, that's the one that I would suggest looking into.

And galantamine is. Sorry to interrupt. That's an interesting one because I know that it's a prescription. Like, it's used as a prescription for dementia, but you can also just like buy that, like on Amazon, for example, correct?

Yeah, yeah. And it's actually called the lucid dreaming pill.

Really?

Yeah.

Do you know anything about dosage or anything along those lines?

I know that Ryan talked a little bit about it on our show. It's been quite a few episodes. But it's interesting. It does work on that acetylcholine pathway. So again, that could be why something like Alpha brain has been used by some other people. You know, here's the thing I found with the trying to be a lucid dreamer. I felt like I wasn't waking up, rested. I felt like I was too active in my sleep. And I was either not sleeping or if I was sleeping, I wasn't getting well rested because I was too worried about, you know, dreaming and controlling the dream. So that experiment was kind of short lived for me.

Yeah. Have you ever experimented with CBD or THC analogs for inducing lucid dreaming or strange dreams?

I've taken CBD oil and I didn't notice anything in terms of the dreams. I did notice that it would help me unwind and relax and actually get to sleep, maybe after a stressful day. But on the dream part, no.

Yeah. One thing that I found for those of you listening and who happen to be in places where this is legal because it's a little bit different than CBD oil or cannabidiol oil, which is derived from industrial hemp. This stuff is from marijuana and so it has a lot of traces of THC in it. Is this Rick Simpson oil? And it was originally designed for controlling pain, controlling some of the more unpleasant aspects of cancer and chemotherapy, et cetera. But it's an extremely potent. Usually you get it as an oil, it's called Rick Simpson oil. And I've put tiny drops of that on my fingertip before and just kind of. You almost like lick it off and let it dissolve sublingually. I have had some extremely crazy fun nights of dreaming on that stuff. And also it causes you to fall asleep for a very, very long period of time. Caution, you'll have a 10 or 11 hour night of sleep with that stuff. But it's called Rick Simpson Oil. You'll also wake up with a bit of a sleepy hangover. The same as if you had taken too much melatonin or something like that. But that's an interesting one. I'll put a link in the show notes for those of you who want to kind of study up on CBD oil versus Rick Simpson oil. But that's something I've found to definitely affect lucid dreaming states. And I'll put a link to the podcast that Ryan did on lucid dreaming as well. Ryan, as an ex fitness model, you're obviously into training and I know that one of the things that you've talked about is the use of resistance bands to get strength breakthroughs or to increase muscle, etc. Can you Go into how you use resistance bands.

Yeah, absolutely. So nothing that I'll talk about here is my invention or my creation. There are a lot of really, really great strength coaches out there. You know, I think Louis Simmons was probably one of the first to make the bands popular. A lot of what I learned came from Dave Tate, John Meadows. But, you know, there was when I was doing the fitness modeling and then got into being a strength coach. You know, like you mentioned in the intro, I owned my own gym from 2012 until just this last year when I sold it. And the resistance bands are really, really cool because you can use them in two ways. You can use them against the bar, or you can use them with the bar. And either way they match the strength curve because we're all stronger, closer to lockout. So if you think about a squat, you're stronger in the top quarter of the squat than you are in the bottom of the squat, right.

You just, you have like a biomechanical advantage based off the length of your leverage at that point.

Right. And same thing for bench press, stronger at lockout than we are at the chest. So if you use the bands, like I said, they match the strength curve. If you use them against the barbell, they, they will force you to use less weight on the bar. And this is what they were. That's kind of the original application. That's what Louis Simmons. And if people are familiar with the west side method or conjugate method, it's what's referred to as dynamic effort training. And you perform the way they do it is they have two upper body, two lower body days a week. One is dynamic effort, the other is max effort. And in those dynamic effort days, you're using about 40 to 60% of your one rep max on the bar plus bands. And, and the bands that you use correspond to, you know, your, your absolute strength, whatever.

So you're attaching these to the bar.

So what you would do is if, if you're using the bands against the bar, you would actually, for a bench press, it gets doubled over the bar and then both of the loose ends come down towards the ground. If you're in a power rack, you can put them on a peg. So a lot of times if you see power racks now, they're made with pegs for bands. Or if you're just on a bench press, like a, at the gym, just a regular bench press, you can put like 100 pound dumbbells on either side and just use that as the anchor. So you actually have them doubled over and you're pressing up against the bands or squatting up against the bands or deadlifting up against. They make short bands for deadlifts, but the dynamic effort method there you're going to do. If it's a deadlift, you're usually doing sets of one. On the squat, they usually prescribe sets of two. On the bench press, it's usually sets of two or three. And you're performing higher sets. So more sets with the lower reps. And the intent there is to move the bar as fast as you can. The bands force you to accelerate because the farther the band stretches, the more resistance it provides. And this really teaches rate of force production. So in the strength world, this is our ROFD rate of force production. So that's, that's a. It's a quality or an aspect of strength. So it's not just how much force can you produce, but how fast can you produce it. And this really helps elevate your absolute strength, whether you're a power lifter or it can help you develop, you know, power if you're an athlete. So it has applications to anybody who lifts. And then there's another way to use resistance bands where it's actually called the reverse band method. And again, it matches your strength curve. Because on this method, what you do is you attach the bands to the top of a power rack, so you choke them around the top, and then you're left with the band hanging down. You can either put a barbell in there and do squats, deadlifts, again, bench press, and on this one, you still get the band gives you more help in the bottom. The band in this case, instead of being against you, is actually helping you. So you get more help out of the bottom of the lift and then less help at the top so the weight is heavier. You have more of the weight at the top of the lift, less of it at the bottom. So this way you can actually use more weight so you can overload your body. You know, all your cells, the Golgi bodies and, you know, tendons and ligaments, get used to handling heavier weight, which. Those are things that don't really adapt as quickly as muscle tissue. So a lot of times, if you see big strength increases, or maybe your body is. Our body is smarter than we realize, and it won't allow us to, you know, handle heavier and heavier weights if it's not ready to. So it's almost like it's kind of like tricking your body into taking off the emergency break. So you're. You're allowing your body to feel this overload and it can adapt. So like I think maybe the, the post that you found and, and that you, you're going to link to, there's a four week cycle that we can use and let's say, say we wanted to do bench press, right? And the bar weight would stay the same for all four weeks. All right. In the first week of this cycle we would use the heaviest band, so maybe call it a strong band. And you would perform your sets and reps with let's say, let's say you put 225 on the bar and you have, you know, the help of a strong band. You do five sets of five and then in week two you do the same five sets of five with the same 225 on the bar. And instead of using a strong band, you use an average band. And then in week three, you do 225, same bar weight, same sets and reps, five sets of five. You use a moderate band or something that has less help than the previous week and, or maybe that would be a light band. And then in week four, if your recovery has been on point, if all your training's been on point, your food's been on point, then hopefully we could get five sets of five straight bar and no help from the bands. That would be best case scenario. Most people are not going to make that much progress unless, you know, maybe you were getting one or two reps with 225 before you started that cycle. But that's, that's in theory, that's kind of the what you do with that cycle. So, okay, so with, with reverse band, you're able to overload the body, overload the muscles. You get help in the stretched position. So the bottom of the squat, the bottom of the bench press, where you're kind of the most suscep joint injuries or muscle tears, you're getting help. So those are two different ways to use the bands to really kind of stimulate your muscles and your body in a different way and keep those adaptations moving forward.

And you can use bands, if I'm not mistaken, you can attach them to like barbell handles, you can attach them to kettlebells. Like you can use these bands in a big variety of ways, right?

Yep.

Now, do you like the bands that I have are the Monster Fitness bands by Rogue. Do you have a specific like brand of resistance band that you use or do you just kind of go with whatever the thickest is that you can find?

I was introduced to bands by elitefts.com that's Dave Tate's company. So I'm kind of partial to them because that's where I learned about them. I'm sure that Westside and Louis Simmons has his own version. I know a friend of mine, James Smith has. They have their bands. I'm not even sure what they're called, but he's at Diesel Strength. Rogue has bands. Sorin X makes bands. I think at this point in the fitness world, I think everybody makes their own.

Gotcha.

Sells their own.

Gotcha. Okay, cool. Now another fitness technique. And by the way, for those of you listening in who were scratching your head trying to visualize what Ryan was describing as far as like how those bands would attach when you're doing a bench press or when you're doing a squat or when you're doing a deadlift. I'll link over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Ryan to the article that he wrote on that. But you also, from a cardiovascular standpoint, Ryan, I noticed that you are into this concept of hurricane training for very efficiently improving one's cardiovascular fitness. Can you describe how one would do a hurricane workout?

Yeah, absolutely. So hurricane training is the name actually came from Martin Rooney. He is the guy behind Training for Warriors and he's a really, really great strength coach. Smart guy. Originally, you know, the way it was explained to me was that it was designed to help condition fighters or even athletes, anybody who needs to be able to perform in a fatigued state. It can also have applications for fat loss because there is such a metabolic disruption in the way that it's set up. But basically what you do is 30 seconds of an all out. You can do a 10 second sprint, you can do 30 seconds of kettlebell swings, but some sort of metabolic disruption for 10 to 30 seconds. Okay, so what we're looking at here is. I'm sorry, I probably should have started with this. But it's a circuit of three moves. So like 1 ABC or 2 ABC and that a movement is 30 seconds of metabolic disruption. Whether it's mountain climbers, burpees, bike sprints, hill sprints, stadium sprints, you're only limited by your imagination there. And then you follow it up with two strength movements and they're usually done for sets of 8 to 12. Right. So and you go through this, you can do. The number of times that you complete that circuit is up to you. And it depends on what the entire workout looks like. So I think in the article that we're going to link to, the example I listed has three different circuits. So each circuit was performed three times. If you wanted to cut it down to two circuits, you could do each circuit five times. So let's say you set a. You did hill sprints, right? And then you go to a park, and this park has a hill or stadium, and you can do chin ups and then dips or push ups. Right? That would be a beautiful version of hurricane training where you sprint up the hill. Say it takes you 10 or 15 seconds to get to the top of the hill or the top of the stadium, come back down, immediately, bang out 8 to 12 chin ups, 8 to 12 dips, and then you're right back on it. And you know, this is. It's great for cardio, it's great for fat loss, it's great for muscle building, and it's great for conditioning, especially if you're, you know, a fighter or an athlete. So it's a really, really cool concept. You know, it kind of fits in with, with what we talk about with biohacking, where you're trying to. You're getting maximum benefit in minimum time, right? So any, any training methodology. Methodology or modality where we can reap multiple benefits from the same, you know, input or investment of time and energy. It's just a great thing.

Okay, so the hurricane workout, an example would be, you would do, the original hurricane workout would be you'd get on a treadmill, you'd go as hard as you freaking can, up an incline at as maximum speed as you can for about 30 seconds. Then you'd get off and you'd do two different body weight or two different exercises like a pull up and a push up. And then you get back on the treadmill and you do that again and you'd continue for multiple sets. That's treadmill to back to back body weight exercises.

Yeah, exactly.

And your version of that is instead of using a treadmill, you could sprint in place or you could do mountain climbers in place or something like that for the maximum 30 second effort. And then use whatever kettlebell swings or rows or V ups or whatever for your bodyweight exercises.

Yeah. So in the article, at the time I wrote the article was early on in promoting my gym. We didn't have treadmills at my gym when I first learned it. I was a trainer at a big box gym where we had treadmills. So you take the. The idea here is that, you know, I want your listeners to understand the template and then once you understand the template, go hard for 30 seconds and then do two strength moves. You can Sub in an infinite number of variations or possibilities.

Yeah. And if I, if I could throw in here real quick. When I was competing in triathlon, I was actually reading because I like to kind of delve into all sorts of different ways that one could engage in cross training for something like Ironman. And I remember I read a book by author Martin Rooney and it was a book on cardio training, specifically cardio training for fighters. And he had these hurricane workouts in there. And I actually, prior to, to the half Ironman or it was actually called the long course World Championships in Triathlon, I started implementing these hurricane workouts twice a week. And I was doing them as he wrote them in the book. You get on the treadmill and you do. I think I wound up doing 10 sets of 30 seconds on the treadmill. The book, by the way, was called warrior cardio 10 sets on the Treadmill. And this was a key running workout for me. And each set on the treadmill, treadmill would be interspersed with those two back to back bodyweight exercises. And I remember at that particular long course triathlon I actually won gold medal for the US based on my run because I cranked out something like a 114 or 115 half marathon off the bike just using that type of overspeed sprint strategy. Now granted, I've had my genetics tested and I'm a power responder, right. So I respond really, really well to short, fast efforts for especially run training. But it's an incredibly efficient way to train, like your turnover and your run power and a ton of run parameters all at once. And then also just blast the body with lactic acid with those body weight exercises in between.

Yeah, it's a beautiful training protocol for many different applications, whether you're triathlon, fighter, even basketball, football, any type of athlete.

Now you also have talked a little bit on your website about what you do when you can't work out or when you don't have access to a formal workout at the gym. Can you go into some of your strategies that you do when you're having difficulty actually squeezing a workout in?

Yeah. So this is something that has kind of been an evolution for me, you know, in the days of being a fitness model living in New York City, you know, there were, it was definitely a time in my life where, you know, I, I had these elaborate spreadsheets for my diet. I weighed everything I ate, I measured everything, you know, workouts had to be, you know, exactly this, at exactly this time of day. And that's just no way to live your Life especially, you know, now that I'm no longer a fitness model. So for me, what I do in the way I approach fitness is that it has to enhance the rest of my life. It can't rule or dominate or dictate the rest of my life. So, you know, my stance on fitness is a lot more relaxed than it ever was. And, you know, like I said, that's kind of been an evolution and a growth process for me. Mark Sisson said it best. You know, you're not going to lose your fitness in three days. You know, if you. If you have to travel, if you have to miss a few workouts, you're just not going to lose your fitness. So I use the same kind of philosophy with. With nutrition and with fitness. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to not suck. So, you know, if you travel and you don't eat exactly the way you did at home, you know, it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to not suck. Meaning you don't go, you know, off the rails and eat at Burger King and, you know, stuff your face with Pop Tarts and, you know, Pringles. Right. Same thing with. With your workouts. There are so many ways to be active and move that don't require going to a formal gym, whether it's a CrossFit gym or. Or a Gold's Gym or. Or anything like that. You know, you can simply wake up, walk outside and walk. If there's a pool, get in the pool and move. You can go in your hotel room and you can do mobility drills. You can pack. If you drive. It's really easy to throw a kettlebell in your car. There's a really cool fitness. I don't know if you want to call him an expert or guru or coach, whatever. I think his name's Ben Greenfield. He just. He just drove across the country. And every. What was it, every 50 miles, he stopped.

We did the 50. 50, 50, 50. I posted this to Snapchat. But every 50 miles, you stop me.

See, I do stalk you. Yeah.

50 burpees and 50 kettlebell swings. Great way to give yourself a blood clot during a road trip. But in terms of what you do when you can't get your workout in, it sounds to me, and it looks to me like kind of like going over your article here, that not only are you into things like that, like bodyweight exercises or the use of a suspension trainer or these resistance bands that you talked about, but you eat as freaking clean as can be when you know you're not going to be able to exercise.

Yeah. So you definitely have to account for the fact that you're not blowing through as many calories and as much food. Your food needs will decrease if you go through, you know, three or four days of, of significantly, you know, increased sedentary lifestyle. Right. So you and I are both really active people. Most of our listeners are really active people, you know, so. So if you significantly reduce your activity for a few days, then your caloric demand, your nutrient demand is going to be a little bit lower, you know, so you definitely do want to eat a little bit cleaner and, and just be aware that, you know, hey, I'm not doing seal Fit style workouts or Train to Hunt style workouts, so my needs aren't what they normally are. Yeah, definitely take that into account.

That's very similar to my approach when I travel. When I've got international travel or I'm hopping across the pond or whatever. One of the things that I'll do is a. I'll eat far less than I normally would. And in many cases I'll even use like, you know, we had talked about ketosis, for example. I don't do a lot of strict ketosis because I like food too much. I like sweet potato fries and I like, you know, I like my starchy vegetables and, you know, I like my wife's cooking. But when I travel, I do tend to air more towards this whole idea of like, strict ketosis, not only because you beat brain fog and you shut down a lot of like the, the oxidation that can occur when you're, when you're flying at altitude, et cetera, but also because when you can't work out and you want to stay lean. It is one of the better strategies, in my opinion, that you can use as you just travel with ketones you travel with. I like a lot of these companies coming out with instant packets. Now, I don't know if you've seen these, but they'll have your coconut oil powdered or MCT oil powdered with some kind of like a butter or a creamer, and it's all in a little packet. And I can walk up to Starbucks, mix that with coffee, and kind of be in that very low calorie, yet energized state while I'm traveling. I think Bulletproof's version is called Insta Coffee. Insta Mix, Instamix. That's right. And do you guys at Natural Stacks do anything like that? Am I insulting you by bringing up a competitor or.

No, not at all. I Mean, Bulletproof has always been a great partner for us. Lucky enough to kind of launch our nootropic Siltep and Smart Caffeine on Dave's podcast. We've always had a booth at the Bulletproof conference. So, you know, they are a partner of ours.

Okay.

A lot of we. Actually, Siltep is the only non bulletproof product that Dave sells on his website, but kind of to answer your question, I think you said something that was really interesting. You know, we, when we travel, especially you and I, we're usually doing it for business and we want to be at our best. And for us, that stems from eating very clean. We want our brains and our bodies to be performing at that high level. So you want premium fuel to go in so that your brain is clear and functioning properly. But also you alluded to the environmental toxins, you know, that you're exposed to, whether it's on an airplane or in a hotel. You know, so I think the more we get out of our routine, it's almost more important to be very conscious and aware of what goes into your body because, you know, it's in those instances where you, you know, you have a higher need to perform and be at your best, but you're also maybe a little bit more susceptible to, you know, factors.

Yeah, totally makes sense. Now, speaking of natural stacks, I'm curious. You know, obviously one of the things that you guys are, are known for is you make smart drugs or nootropics like, like Siltep, for example, I know, is something that was popularized by Tim Ferriss and is something that your, your founder, Abelard Lindsay developed for you. Personally, though, Ryan, do you have a daily protocol in terms of nootropics or smart drug stacks that you've found to work really well? I know that you're pretty intimately involved with studying up on smart drugs and nootropics, so this would be cheating our listeners if I didn't actually ask you what your own personal protocol is on that.

Yeah, so I mean, full transparency. I work for natural Stacks, so I mean, I'm going to be partial to the Natural Stacks product, product line. You know, Siltep is a beautiful nootropic that is non stimulant and it doesn't work on the neurotransmitter pathways that most nootropics do. So Siltep is unique in that sense. And I think that's one of the reasons that, you know, it was.

Sorry, Sorry to interrupt. Can. Can you expound on that when you say that it works On a different pathway than other nootropics would.

So there's four basic neurotransmitters. There are a lot of other ones, but there are four that are commonly manipulated in the smart drug world. They are dopamine, serotonin, acetylcholine, and gaba. So we already kind of alluded to acetylcholine, or we talked about it a little bit earlier, but acetylcholine is responsible for mental processing speed, the ability to connect thoughts, think laterally. This kind of creativity and oneness, you know. So Dave Asprey has choline force on it, makes alpha brain. Those are all on the choline pathway. And like I said, that's one of the four neurotransmitters. Quickly, there is gaba, which is kind of like social bumper car, you know, like if everybody has felt significantly looser in a social setting after having one or two alcoholic beverages. And that's because, you know, it's working on that GABA pathway kind of, you know, like I said, social bumper cars. Right. Dopamine is your. It's your brain's replay button. That's what Michael Merzenich was on our podcast. He's the neuroplasticity guy and founder at Brain hq, you know, and that's. That was the way he described dopamine. So when you do something and you get a positive feedback or positive result, then your brain secretes dopamine to say, hey, that was good, we got a good result. We should do more of that. And then serotonin is responsible for mood, anxiety and fear. And, you know, that's kind of. It can help you, you know, feelings of calm and relaxation. Right. So that's kind of a really quick overview, enough to give people kind of a basic understanding to say that ciltep does not work on any of those neurotransmitter pathways. Ciltep has two main ingredients, artichoke extract and forskolin. And they act as an inhibitor for an enzyme called PDE4. And this enzyme down regulates cyclic amp. So, you know, maybe you've done some podcasts where you talked about biochemistry and cyclic amp, but when cyclic amp is elevated, it can potentiate long term memory. So that finding was part of the thread and the discussion on longevity, which is, you know, the famous anti aging and biohacking website and forum.

Yes, that I avoid. So I don't get sucked into lengthy forum discussions. But I'll link to it in the show notes. For those of you who wanted to go down that rabbit hole, I Can.

I can actually send you the link to the original Siltep thread. But that's where the product Siltep was actually created. It was created on that forum. Abelard and a whole bunch of other people were going through different iterations of it. He came up with the final formulation and that's how Tim Ferriss knew about it. That's, that's how Dave Asprey knew about it. And from there he got with our founders Ben and Roy, who you've met at some of these other conferences. And that's how Natural Stacks, the company was started. And then Abelard went on Dave's podcast and launched Siltep and Natural Stacks. So back to kind of the way Siltep works. When people take and use Siltep, it's very subtle and what you notice is that you have this increased engagement, this increased focus or desire to learn to read, to kind of go down these rabbit holes and stay almost impervious to distraction. But also because it potentiates long term memory, you are better able to store and recall the information consumed when you're on Siltep. So we've got, we've got everybody from rocket scientists to Hollywood actors and celebrities memorizing lines, Olympic athletes. The gamut of people using and benefiting from Siltep is amazing.

Yeah. And I've used it, you know, I like to experiment with all sorts of different smart drugs. And for example, I found different things work for different, different situations when I have to go all day long and just need boundless energy because whatever, I'm at a, let's say a conference that I know is going to start in the morning, go all day and then have parties afterwards. I'll use some of the racetams like Aniracetam or Piracetam or some of those things combined with Choline and some of those other things you mentioned earlier that kind of just increase the overdrive function in the brain. And when I need, for example, access to word recall, like if I'm talking on stage, for example, I'll use something like Alpha Brain by Onnit. I found to work well for something like that. But for memory and for learning, the CELTAP seems to work quite well for just reading a book and trying to retain as much as possible in that book. It's very interesting when it comes to learning and memory processes. My kids are in a, in Peter Pan summer theater this entire week memorizing their lines for a play at the end of the week. So I may try and break up in a capsule and slip a little bit into their morning scrambled egg mess.

There you go.

I'm not sure if it's approved for children, but it does work quite well for memory.

That's what I was going to say. It's all natural. There's no stimulants, so I don't see why you couldn't give it to a kid. But that would be a personal choice on behalf of natural stacks. I'm not saying that.

Well, I will link to your guys's website in the show notes. And I know that you had mentioned prior to us recording that you wanted to give folks a discount code if they wanted to try Siltep or, you know, we really didn't even scratch the surface on the other stuff that you guys have, like dopamine brain food and all those other little things. But I do have an article that I'll link to in the show notes where I've talked about smart drugs and some of my favorite stacks. And you can read a little bit more. But I know you've got that prebiotic starch for lucid dreaming. You've got that Siltep and some other things there. So discount for folks listening in. Can you go into that?

Absolutely, yeah. 15% off and the code will be BEN15B E N1 5 use all capitals on BEN. And just like you said, we didn't even scratch the surface on nootropics. But I do want to reiterate that because Ciltep doesn't work on those neurotransmitter pathways, it stacks extremely well with nootropics that do work on those pathways. And that was the original. That's part of the intent and the design. So the company Natural Stacks, we want people, you know, that's kind of our method is, you know, most products are designed to be able to work either as a standalone or in combination with others for that synergistic effect. So, so, you know, we have the dopamine brain food. If you need the extra motivation and you take that with Ciltep, or if you need kind of de stress with focus, then you can take serotonin brain food with Ciltep. So that's the, you know, just to give people some stacks and some applications there.

Got it. Okay. So speaking of supplements, because I know I promised this to folks, the dirty secrets of the supplement industry. You've looked into this. I'm curious now. Some of this stuff people know, like, people know that some folks will use, like, cheap and inferior ingredients to, for example, save money. I don't Think that's any secret out there. But I have a few specific questions I want to ask you because this is stuff I see all the time. First of all, when you turn over the label on a supplement and it says proprietary, one of the words that I really despise. I know it's required in many cases so that, that you can have your, whatever, your little patented blends that you don't want to let the other competitors in the industry know the exact amounts you're using. Tell me about why we need to be careful when we see the word proprietary.

Well, so let me back up, and I don't want to say correct you on that, but I guess challenge somebody who would use proprietary because it's patented. If your blend is protected by a patent, why do you need to hide it?

Yeah, that's. Well, what if, I mean, I know in many cases these blends are not patented, however.

Right, right. So for people listening, that's what proprietary means. Basically, it allows supplement companies to hide the amount of each ingredient. So it's like, we all know that when you bake a cake, there are ingredients that go into baking that cake. If we just said like, hey, here's Betty Crocker cake mix and it's got a proprietary blend. You don't know how much of that dry mix is wheat flour, how much is salt, how much is baking soda. And that's very much the case with a lot of supplements where if you say, hey, I have this proprietary blend of creatine, Rhino Blast, pre workout, and a serving is 1,000 milligrams, and it's my special proprietary blend, I could have 999 milligrams of sand and, you know, 1 milligram of creatine. And there's my thousand milligrams and it's protected under my proprietary blend. And you think as a consumer that you're getting a thousand milligrams of, you know, the good. But in reality, you don't know that. Now, just because somebody says proprietary blend doesn't mean they're, they're using, you know, 99%. But it does mean that they're not telling you. And if somebody, look, we live in the world that we live in right now. If somebody's using organic and grass fed, you know, beef or protein powder, that's the first thing they tell you about their product.

Right.

They can't wait to tell you that. So if somebody's using a proprietary blend right now, you can almost be assured that they're hiding something. Because if they Weren't they would be bragging about the quality of what is in there and they would be very forthright and almost trying to use that as a positive and a selling point.

Yeah, well, one of the examples that you have on your website is like branched chain amino acids, right? Where it says there's 3.7 grams of an amino acid proprietary blend on there. And when it says there's 3.7 grams of that amino acid proprietary blend, you make a good point that they list all these amino acids. But there could be like three point whatever, six grams of one thing listed there, like the cheapest one, and then bare trace amounts of everything else. But because it says proprietary and they're not required to list the actual amount in each or of each ingredient, you have no clue if you're actually getting any amount of most of the, perhaps the expensive stuff that you're actually looking to put into your body.

Right. And so, so here's the thing, like with that, do you know the. There are three branch chains, right? The BCAAs, there are three branch chain amino acids, right. You know what they are?

Leucine, isoleucine and valine. I didn't even take celtap, so yeah.

Okay.

Just pulled that right out of my head.

So then if I'm buying a BCAA product and you know, in their 3.7 grams of that proprietary blend, it also consists of proline, glycine, lysine, you know, threonine, arginine, alanine, all these other things. Those aren't BCAAs. So I'm really not getting 3.7 grams of BCAAs. I'm getting 3.7 grams of amino acids. So, you know, it really, it allows people to mislead and kind of misdirect consumers. And you really, as a consumer, you cannot be too careful. You know, I always tell people, don't read the front of the package because it's designed to sell. You always turn it over and read the supplement facts and ingredient label. My original, you know, you mentioned this in the intro. My degree is food science and human nutrition. So I would be an rd, a registered dietitian if I pursued that internship after college. But my original major was, was actually packaging science. So I learned all these laws about, you know, like what you're allowed to say on packaging and all this stuff. And yeah, so that was kind of, it was interesting and it's crazy how it now is actually knowledge that I am able to use in what I do. But the front of the package is designed to sell. That's it.

Yeah. Yeah. And your article is quite shocking when you go into the fact that for example, one shake product, one protein shake product contained 12.2 grams of protein when the label said that it claimed 25 grams of protein or that the FDA discovered this one supplement that had 1,814% more sugar in it than what they actually claimed was in that protein powder. So yeah, the products not meeting labeling claims to these issues with proprietary blends. You go into two a lot of it in your article. And so it's called the supplement industry's top 10 hidden secrets. I'll link to this article in the show Notes for those of you who want to read about these top 10 hidden secrets. Dirty Secrets of the Supplement Industry along with everything else that Ryan and I have talked about in today's show. I wish we had more time opening the kimono on podcast recordings. I personally have another recording that I am 10 minutes late for now and so I have to cut our discussion on dirty secrets of the supplement industry slightly short. But I will link to that article in the show Notes for those of you who want to listen in@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Ryan and also listen link to everything else we talked about the Longestity forum and Galantamine and the strange and shocking history of why corn flakes were invented and and much more. Ryan. Oh and also the discount code that you guys can use to make yourself smart little cookies with silTEP discount code. Ben15 on anything from natural Stacks. Ryan, thanks for coming on the show, man.

Hey Ben, thanks for having me. This has been a blast. I appreciate the opportunity and I do just want to say one other thing with Natural stacks and this supplement industry thing is we want to disrupt the supplement industry. We want to change the fact that these things that we just talked about in this last segment are the industry norm. You know, that makes us sick. It makes you sick. You know, our, our followers, your followers. People are tired of this and you know, we're trying to expose it and change it. So we just want people to know that that's what we're up to and we want to raise the bar.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I love what you guys are doing over there and love some of the, the unique formulations that you are inventing. So again, show notes over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Ryan if you want to learn more about Ryan or any of the other wide variety of things we talked about today. And Ryan, thanks so much for coming on the show, man.

Ben My pleasure. Thanks for having me, man. All right, folks.

Well, this is Ben Greenfield and Ryan Munsey from Natural Stacks signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have a healthy week.

You've been listening to the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast. Go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness and performance advice.

Sam.