"Drunken" Banter, Unplugging From Wearables, Ketogenic Mistakes In Exercisers & Athletes, Carb Refeeds, Alcohol Hacks & Much More!

On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast, you maybe modify that ketogenic diet in the way that I did after the test, which would be to not restrict carbohydrates to the extent to where you're getting some physiological blowback. And so for Ironman, like there was a certain point where I'd switch to just like full on sugar. So we have this rift in society, right? We have the healthy people hanging out with healthy people and the unhealthy or fat people hanging out with fat people. What then needs to occur? You have to start inviting your unhealthy friends or your overweight friends to these same type of events, but just make sure they're always outnumbered. Health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show. So I guess we're recording.

Yeah, we're recording.

Okay, this is gonna be interesting because you just gave me this skin food. This is your product, Brian, this nose to tail stuff. So the ingredients. I've been out in the sun doing a photo shoot all day because I'm a hot fitness model and so my skin's probably a little bit dry or at least UVA and UVB'd. So I'm just gonna put some of this in my face. Grass fed tallow. Avocado. I thought you told me this was all nose to tail.

You're bastard.

It's got plants in it. Saladino would be going to kill me. Bergamot, Frankincense. That's a psychedelic cedarwood. All right, well, I'll smear this on my face. I actually like, I used to use extra virgin olive oil. Do you do this podcast as a video also?

Yeah, this is. We got it.

Getting a video. I used to do extra virgin olive oil on my face just because it was easy to walk into the pantry and do it. And I figured if I was buying olive oil anyway, it works really well. And then I, I realized because I, I had some like beef tallow. You could do beef tallow. I've experimented with ghee. Ghee doesn't work because it has like that butyric acid smell. It's kind of like farty smelling. Coconut oil isn't bad.

Coconut oil is good.

Beef, beef towel is like. So this is good.

So this is whipped too, you know, it's like a whipped texture and so it's just. And some essential oils.

I just put it on my skin and the ultimate put on my skin. I, I thought this was like a food product that you gave me. So now I don't feel quite as dumb. No, no, it is.

You're supposed to put it on your. Your skin.

It's food for your skin fed. That's like the metric for a healthy. What do you call it? A beauty suitable cosmeceutical.

If you can eat it.

I forget what you call it. If you can eat it.

Yeah, no, that's what we're doing. It's grass fed, grass finished suet.

And yeah, probably still tastes like, but you could eat it.

Well, my dog might start licking you, but.

And then what else? We've got this plant based tonic. You haven't had this before, Brian. But Khalil, my friend at Sunlife Organic this morning. Well, no, last night I had a dinner and he gave me a shot of this stuff. It's called, called Feel Free. I'm not sponsored by them or anything. I'm not. This is an employee. It's called Feel Free. And it's basically kava, which is like kind of the relaxing thing which you know all about because you're from Hawaii. But then it's got kratom in it, which is kind of interesting. Kava and kratom. Because kratom's like a non opioid based painkiller. That's why most people use that. And sometimes for sleep or sometimes for energy, depending on the strain. And then kava is basically just like.

It'S muscle relaxing relaxer.

It's like a euphoric muscle relaxant. So I asked Khalil, I'm like, how do you feel if you take this? And he said, you feel euphoric. And then I went to their website and it said, you feel euphoric. Maybe that's why they call it Feel Free. And so I had a shot last night before dinner and I also had a cocktail, admittedly, but I felt like I'd had like four or five cocktails. But not like clumsy. I was lucid, but relaxed. And so you and I are drinking this right now on ice. I just did a shot yesterday, but it took like 20 or 30 minutes for me to kind of like feel it.

I'm already feeling it.

Yeah. This whole shit might go south in like 20 minutes.

We'll see what happens. Maybe we'll get really mellow. My tongue is numb and I'm feeling good. Well, let's kick this off. You mentioned alcohol, so.

Oh.

It may or may not have been my birthday last night and I may or may not have drinking alcohol.

Really? His birthday last night? Yeah. Happy birthday.

Thank you.

How old are you?

I'm 38.

Oh, I got you by a year.

See? Yeah, that's. My goal is to. To look young. I feel like we're doing a good job of it. Yeah. Staying in shape.

You look pretty well preserved.

I'm trying.

This makes you sound like a mummy, so.

Yeah, I mean. Okay. You're kind of like a biohacking guy. I'm trying to coin the phrase ancestral hacking.

All right. Ancestral hacking instead of bio syllables than biohacking.

It is.

It's not.

It doesn't roll off your tongues. Yeah, but it's like what biohacking does kind of mimics our ancestral environment. Right. That's what I think it should do.

Some of it, yeah. Like the red lights mimic infrared from the sun, or the grounding mats and the grounding shoes mimic earthing or grounding or, you know, a cryotherapy chamber mimics cold water. Or a sauna might mimic like a hot afternoon day. But then there's some things. Like a hyperbaric chamber. Is that better? Yeah, I've done this only a couple times before. Like a hyperbaric chamber. It's kind of like. Well, what does that simulate? Like how. How often was like 30ft? No, like 30ft underwater. High oxygen or. Or. Yeah, same thing. Like altitude training. Like. Like the hypoxic training devices, the. The live O2. That would be an example of a biohack or like, like a fitness biohack, like a vasper where you have your arms and legs occluded and you're exercising and you have cold. And so I think that there's a sector of biohacking that's mimicking natural living or what our ancestors might have done and allowing us to more efficiently do that sometimes in a shorter period of time. In a post industrial era in which we are kind of fighting an uphill battle where we might have to work indoors. So we need red light panels indoors or we aren't sleeping in a cave. So we need a grounding mat on our bed. Or there's glass and needles and syringes on the dirty Austin street. So you need to wear big built up rubber soled shoes. And so you put grounding straps on your shoes. And those would all, I think, fall under the category of mimicking in a post industrial era, using smart science, what our ancestors would have gotten through natural means, or what we can and should also get through natural means that we top off with those biohacks. But I do think there's some other biohacks, like some of the stuff I mentioned like the hypoxic training devices or the vasper or hyperbaric chamber or stem cell injections, some of that stuff. Yeah, that's modern science. Stuff our ancestors wouldn't have done.

Well, I appreciate that stuff. So I'm just more into the ancestral hacks. I'm trying to do that. It's like a more natural version. Instead of getting all these gadgets like sleep rings and this and that. I'm trying to just do it more naturally. But yes, there is a next level that I appreciate. And that's what you are more of an expert in.

Well, nature threw me a big fat clue that maybe I'm not supposed to be using a wearable yesterday because I went swimming in Barton Springs. And you know, when you swim, you're Your appendages kind of shrink a little bit. There's shrinkage. Not just crotchet shrinkage, but shrinkage of the digits and the toes. And I got like 20 minutes into my swim and my aura ring is now at the bottom of Barton Springs. So It's a size 13, like $400 stealth black aura ring for any of you Austinites who want to go underwater metal detecting like Gollum from Lord of the Rings and come up with my precious. So, yeah, so I lost my Oura ring yesterday. But I like the idea of unplugging to a certain extent, like you've just talked about Brian Mackenzie. And I think it was Kelly Starrett was his co author. I think it was Kelly Starrett and I think it was Brian McKenzie. And I could be wrong, but they wrote a book called Unplugged a few years ago about all the uses of heart rate variability monitors and power meters and stride rate metrics and muscle force meters used in fitness and how sometimes, sometimes we can lose touch with the signals that our own body is telling us in that type of scenario. Kind of like the classic, I woke up, I feel great. I had a wonderful night of sleep. I look at my wearable, it tells me my sleep was shitty and it was really six hours and I'm supposed to be tired today. And so suddenly I have a crappy workout because my ring or my watch told me I was supposed to have a crappy workout. And I certainly think that we risk that. When I was racing Ironman Triathlon, I raced for Team Timex. And Timex, of course, hooked us up with the thousand dollar supercomputers the size of a pager that we'd wear on our wrists and the electric bike meters for power and the things we wore in our shoes for stride length and even pretty advanced stuff like stride rate, push off power, everything for running, and metrics for swimming, even the swim goggles that display your stroke rate and stuff to you, like on the back of the goggle screen as you're swimming. And I got like two years in the racing with them and I just burnt out on all that stuff. I was like, I just want to go back to my cheap ass $15 timex and just like, kind of pay attention to how I feel when I'm running and pay attention how I feel when I cycling. Not because I think those other training metrics and training technologies are bad or not useful, but I got to the point where I just kind of burnt out on all that stuff. And now I'm very selective about what I wear and what I track. And especially for me, like, the biggest one is when I'm exercising. I just don't like to be wearing a lot when I'm exercising. Like, I wear the ring and I don't, you know, I used to just like track HRV and recovery and every weight I'd lifted and all my sets and all my reps and, you know, the Strava distance and all that stuff. I just like to move now and unplug and it feels really refreshing. If I was a pro athlete or if I was coaching a pro athlete, I'd have a different approach. But if you're just trying to live healthy and be natural, you know, you don't need all that stuff, really.

Well, you know what? I think it's good to start off with something like that. Like, you know, like levels gave me a CGM for. To try out for free. Right. And it was great. So for two weeks, or actually I worked for a month.

Glucose monitor. Yeah.

So for a month I tried it and I tried different foods and I learned a lot.

Right.

And. And I tried, like, if I ate sourdough bread, it was slow fermented, it was the right kind of bread. It spiked way more than potatoes.

It spiked more the potatoes. Although theoretically the sourdough bread should have a lower glycemic index. Right.

So I don't know. Wow, this drink's hitting me, actually.

Is it? Yeah.

But for me, I mean, I know it's variable per the person, but I just think. But it's like the bread is more refined food, I think.

Yeah. And yeah, it can be. But a couple things to think about that especially for, like our listeners who are using a continuous glucose monitor, and this is really interesting is, let's Say that on paper, slow fermented sourdough bread has a lower glycemic index than like Wonder bread or regular bread and a lower glycemic index on paper than a potato. Assuming you're not talking about a potato that's been cooked and cooled and taken out to form resistant starch, which is a cool way to kind of like pack a potato or rice. But, but. And let's say that's the case on paper. But the interesting thing is where's the wheat from? Is there glyphosate herbicide pesticide exposure that would be causing a sympathetic nervous system response that would actually cause your liver to start mobilizing blood glucose as a stress response. Do you have a food allergy or food intolerance to gluten or gliadin or other wheat proteins that you don't have to potatoes that would produce a similar effect. For example, Tim Ferriss is super into the slow carb diet and legumes would be considered a slow carb food and green beans would be considered one of those legumes. And I was consuming green beans as not a staple in my diet, but I would probably have green beans once or twice a week. And I got one of those continuous blood glucose monitors and I started tracking and my blood sugar would spike over and over again when I'd have these green beans, which are supposed to be a slow carb food that wouldn't spike your blood sugar. And then I did one of these food allergy tests called a Cyrex panel, which is a pretty good, like a gold standard food allergy test. Yeah, they test via the blood, the white blood cell reaction to both the raw and the cooked version of the protein. And then they have a special testing protocol where they'll do like back to back tests. And it's really gold standard. It doesn't result in like a laundry list of false positives for your food allergies. And the only thing I was pretty clean across the board, but the only thing that I flagged really high for was green beans. And so now I'm like, oh, well, it's not just the glycemic index of a food that dictates how it's going to affect your blood glucose. It's not just the bacterial profile in your stomach or in your gut, which we also know will affect your blood glucose response to foods based on the day two studies in, in Israel. But it's also whatever your sympathetic nervous system is doing in response to that food, which gets super wild if it's like, well, maybe you're, I don't know, let's just say, like, you're divorced and you have a really un. You had a really unpleasant divorce and your partner had like a certain food like chicken that they cooked for you. And now you're like, your blood glucose spikes in response to chicken. So there could even be like a psychosomatic component. So that's why I think sometimes testing can tell you a lot of stuff that you really, really wouldn't realize just intuitively from books or whatever that's interesting.

Or even if people eat on the go and they're driving and they're like, that's like you're stressed out, your body's in a stressed state and you handle foods differently.

I think it is so underemphasized the importance of eating in a parasympathetic state. Now, of course, I'm very much a proponent of chewing your food 25 to 40 times, saying grace or doing breath work, or both prior to a meal, sitting down rather than standing when you eat, not commuting when you eat. But I've become so cognizant of the change in my bowel function, the gas, the bloating, the undigested food particles I can see in my stool, and all the things that happen if I've consumed a meal when I'm on the go. When you combine that with the fact that I don't even really enjoy meals that I consume, if I make myself an amazing smoothie and I drink it while I'm headed to a doctor's appointment versus drinking it while I'm sitting at home, like reading some cool news, which is like. Because if I'm eating by myself, which I do sometimes at home and not with my family, I'll choose activities that are more passive while I'm eating, like reading the paper, thumbing through a magazine, reading a cool blog post, that type of thing. And I am highly cognizant now, and I think a lot of people really should be about whether or not I'm in a sympathetic or a parasympathetic state when I'm consuming food. And of course, back to the metrics tracking. You could use something like a heart rate variability monitor and just until you really, really know. Only don't eat until you figured out how to get your heart rate variability high before you eat. With of course, the only exception being people who are ultra endurance athletes who have to eat while they're exercising. The worst my gut's ever been in my life was when I was racing triathlon and had to eat while I was exercising. And not only that, but the increased gut permeability that occurs when you're exercising becomes even greater when you're exercising in the heat. And so I would be mowing down power bars while riding my bike at 90 degrees. And yeah, I needed those calories, theoretically. I mean, even if you're ketogenic fat burnout.

That's what I was going to ask.

Whatever you still need. I mean, you're still burning appreciable amounts of glycogen. A lot of people like, oh, you're just riding your bike for endurance, bro. I'm like, no, if I got to tackle a hill and I'm pushing out 500 watts on a hill or during a race, I've got 20 seconds to pass somebody, which is the allotted time to do so. At least it was when I was racing Ironman. I'm burning huge amounts of glucose and therefore you need a throughput of glucose in addition to ketones and fatty acids. Now when I was racing ketogenically, I still used about a quarter of of the amount of carbohydrate that my competitors were using because I use more ketones and amino acids. But you still need that glycogen throughput. And that amount of eating is just so hard on the gut because you're eating in that sympathetic state. So when someone's commuting in their car and eating picture, that is the same state as a triathlete hammering a power bar while they're biking down the highway 90 degrees. You're creating the same gut gut permeability scenario or at least something that's somewhat synonymous.

That's. Yeah. Did you, how many years did you do each? Like, did you do like fat adapted training?

I did traditional like Gatorade Sports Science Institute recommended 60% to 85% carbohydrates, up to a 95% carbohydrate intake on race week to load, which I was accustomed to because prior to that I was a bodybuilder. And the best way to get super swole on stage is after you've done your morning weigh ins during which you're fully cramping because you're dehydrated and glycogen depleted. And I weigh in at £180 that morning and do my posing and stuff where all the judges are. But then typically with bodybuilding it's in the evening when you do your full on pose off with all the people in the audience cheering. And between the 8am pose and the 6pm show, I would go and punish waffles, potatoes, ice cream, all the carbohydrates I hadn't been eating for weeks on end. I would gain easily in a day, 10 to 15 pounds of water and glycogen weight. My muscles would just be popping through my skin. I'd look super swole on stage. And so I was accustomed, when I got to Ironman, of this concept of deplete carbs somewhat. And by deplete carbs, what I mean is when I was following the standard recommendations like eat 60% carbohydrate intake, but then get up to 85, 90% carbohydrate intake by the time that the day of the race was. And so I did that for like six or seven years and had like really bad gas and really bad bloating. And even though I didn't test for it at the time, probably had sibo, which a ton of endurance athletes especially have, who are following those basic carbohydrate recommendations. Fluctuating blood glucose levels, fluctuating it like all of this led to me writing my first book, Beyond Training, because I was trying to hack these issues and figure out what was going on. So I got into the world of self quantification and testing and I performed really well on carbs because there's a saying sugar is a sometimes drug and it can be a super, super effective performance enhancing aid, especially if you've been low carb and then you introduce carbs in the equation, you feel like you're on steroids. But the problem, of course, was all the metabolic and longevity side effects of that amount of carbohydrate throughput. So then I started to experiment with low carbohydrate intake with ketosis. I kind of had an extrinsic motivator because Dr. Jeff Voluck asked me to be part of the faster study at University of Connecticut.

Zach Bitter was part of it too, right?

Yes, Zach was a part of it. And I was one of the, the selected ketogenic athletes. So for 12 months, I followed a strict ketogenic diet, 90%, like fat, like, like, like a traditional, like a traditional. Which I think for athletes, a lot of times there's a mistake made because we're told ketogenic diet is 30 to 40 grams, when in fact the research to date shows that endurance athletes stay in ketosis at a carbohydrate intake of up to 300 grams per day. But for this particular study, I was closer to like probably about 50, maybe 60 grams. I remember that when I went in for that study, the pre, the pre run, the pre three hour treadmill run meal that they gave me was like two strawberries in like 6 ounces of heavy cream, which for me the fat profile was accurate, but that was not enough calories. It was just nothing. So anyways, I did that study. And of course during that study I was still racing and everything and applying a lot of what I was learning in my training, using everything from exogenous gas ketones to amino acids to higher intake of electrolytes, just because your electrolytes get more stripped when you're stripping glycogen from your body. And it kind of got to the point where I figured out how to feel really good on that fueling approach. Although after the study I shifted into more of a cyclic ketotic approach with evening carbohydrate refeeds. The reason being that a, my performance was better. Although with the evening carbohydrate refeeds I was able to be in ketosis and be burning fatty acids for most of the day, briefly foray out of it. And by the next morning I was at like 3 millimolar ketones because I was so fat adapted. And the other reason that I made that modification was because during those 12 months of preparing for Jeff Volek study, my TSH went through the roof. My free T3 and T4 and total both plummeted. My testosterone went to a state of hypogonadism and a lot of that was because I had enough calories. I wasn't energy restricted, but I did not have enough glucose to go around at all.

Did you have enough protein?

Yeah, I think I did some of those keto diets. Not only did I have a decent amount of protein, I was probably at about 0.6 to 0.8 grams per pound of body weight, which I think was enough protein. And I was supplementing pretty heavily with amino acids at the time due to advice that Peter Attia gave me when I bonked during one of my races, I called him up on the phone and we had a chat because he was kind of experimenting with a lot of this stuff at the same time that I was. And he had been kind of using branched chain amino acids. So I started to use the biosteel branched chain amino acids that he recommended during a lot of my training sessions. And because I was training so much. That's a lot of amino acids that you're taking in if you're training like two hours a day. And then I also met Another guy named Dr. David Minkoff, who was more of a proponent of, instead of using the branched chain amino acids leucine and isoleucine and valine, he instead was getting better results for both health and performance with his clients and his athletes doing all nine amino acids, like the nine essential amino acids. So I started doing that instead. And I got so into the effects, like the multitude of effects that the essential amino acids had that wound up being one of my flagship products at Kion was I was just using them so much. That's the way I formulate a lot of my supplements. I'll scratch my own itch and then figure out how to tweak it and refine it and, and turn it into a product. And so yeah, from a protein standpoint, I think I was getting enough and I was using a hefty amount of essential amino acids too. Interesting.

Then what was the results of the study? Like, what did the faster study show? I don't really remember the. Do you remember the big takeaways?

The big takeaways were, oh man. And it was such an interesting study because I showed up to the Yukon lab the day prior to the three hour treadmill run, which was kind of like the big part of the test obviously for endurance, because this was a study specifically on the effects of a ketogenic diet on endurance performance in ultra endurance athletes, primarily ultra marathoners and ironman athletes. And the day before were muscle biopsies. And so they were looking at the composition of the muscle itself, which involves a guillotine like needle plunged into the quadriceps and the hamstrings to extract muscle. So you're very bruised the next day while you're doing that three hour. Every time my foot would strike the treadmill, there'd be a little grimace. And then they did basically every 15 minutes during the treadmill run, blood draws to analyze what the blood metrics were doing. And that would include blood glucose, fatty acids, et cetera. They did a VO2 max test, maximum oxygen utilization to exhaustion test the evening prior. And then they, they did a stool like, like a microbiome test. The. There were, there was nothing that earth shattering about most of the results, you know, from, from like a microbiome standpoint or many of the blood standpoint, aside from the fact that both groups were pretty equivalent as far as the VO2 Max was concerned.

Another group was a traditional high carb.

What's that?

Was the other group a traditional high carb?

Well, they would just say a traditional, not a traditional high carb, but yeah, traditional, by the way, that you and I would judge, things would certainly be high carb. But what they found was that the ketogenic diet did not offer any, any substantial improvements in performance versus the traditional diet. But there was also no average decrement in performance either. So it was a wash. But that's from a performance standpoint. And I would argue that it's not a wash from a metabolic health standpoint, provided that you maybe modify that ketogenic diet in the way that I did after the test, which would be to not restrict carbohydrates to the extent to where you're getting some physiological blowback. They also found, and I think this would be advantageous also for the ketogenic diet that the endurance athletes who were following the ketogenic diet had. And this was based on the muscle biopsy, better glycogen conservation mechanisms. We actually developed the ability to be able to hold on to carbohydrates better in muscle. They didn't analyze liver because a liver biopsy would have been super painful, but they analyzed the muscle and we were storing our carbohydrates more efficiently, or at least not burning through our carbohydrate stores quite as as much, which makes intuitive sense because we were burning fatty acids and ketones more readily. I don't recall what the microbiome effects were. I mean, I would imagine there'd be a shift just because there always is when you're consuming carbs versus fat in the microbiome profile. But the main thing was it doesn't help you performance wise, but also doesn't hurt you.

I mean, that's big because people just think, they assume you have to have carbs to do these type of events.

Right. And if they would have repeated that test on a highly glycolytic audience, let's say. And by highly glycolytic, I don't mean like a powerlifter or a volleyball player or a tennis player, but more like a crossfitter or someone who is engaged in efforts that are repeated and that are longer than about 30 seconds in duration, which is the point at which you begin to burn an appreciable amount of carbs. So let's say like people who are doing like 30 second to two minute hard efforts as part of their sport, they probably would have seen, because studies since then have shown this to be the case, that a ketogenic diet does not allow for as good of a performance if you're engaged in a highly glycolytic sport like that, simply because you're burning a lot of carbohydrates. But what I would like to see, and I don't know if this has been done, would be okay, well what if you go maybe not full on traditional ketogenic, but like low carb versus traditional. So maybe you're having like 200 grams or even 300, which this would shock a lot of ketogenic, but 300 is still considered low carb. And, and I would imagine that if you just kind of shift ketogenic to be slightly higher carb, you wouldn't see any performance decrements and crossfitters and stuff either. And that, you know, when I've done like Spartan racing, which is kind of like crossfit, I've certainly found that to be the case. Like, because when I did four years of Spartan racing, I was low carb the whole time just doing like evening carbohydrate refeeds. And I was fine from a glider glycolytic standpoint.

And then on race day, would you use carbs.

On these for the Spartan race days? Yes, but similar to my Ironman approach, just less like way less of what would normally be recommended with a super easily digested carbohydrate. And for me, rather than the traditional approach of using a gel that's typically fructose and maltodextrin, two highly fermentable carbohydrates, which aren't good for people who have gut issues or, or using like the sweeter like glucose based blends or you know, something like even something like the UCAN Superstarch, which a lot of ketogenic athletes use, but which is also highly fermentable. And so you get a lot of gas and bloating after your event that I just couldn't handle. What I found worked best was a potato based starch. So I would use brands, for example, like Vitar Cargo or Glycofuse, which allows for like a high glycemic index but easily digestible carbohydrate to be consumed during exercise. But I would use like a quarter of what they recommended per hour, which I think came out to like around 100 calories or so of carbohydrates per hour. And then I would have like a shot of ketone esters or ketone salts and about 5 to 10 grams of amino acids and electrolytes. So I was essentially filling in the carbohydrate gap with ketones, amino acids and electrolytes instead of carbohydrates with a trace amount of carbohydrates and that worked really well. And the only modification to that was that for something like an Ironman triathlon, using that fueling approach, I still found that towards the very end of the race when you're about to go at about the 13 mile mark of an Ironman, you really put your pedal or put your foot to the pedal, like pedal to the metal. And just like everything you have left for the next, you know, anywhere from, you know, 70 to 90 minute span, how fast you're running that, that last 13.2 miles, I would be going very fast and going to the brink of exhaustion at that point. And all I did at that point was, you know, quit drinking the ketones and the amino acids and everything and I would just drink Coca Cola. All the aid stations had Coke. It was the perfect. It's like caffeine, sugar, cold. And so for like the last slightly more than an hour of the race, it would just be like pure sugar. But at that point it just hits you really, really well because you've not been using that up until that point. And so for Ironman, there was a certain point where I'd switch to just like full on sugar at the very, very end.

I did a pentathlon in the, in the masters championships. So without even eating, I did fasted. I don't even know why I did it. I just did it as a goof, I guess.

Yeah.

But I'm gonna train for another one, the decathlon. Do all 10 events in two days.

Oh, wow.

So I used to be a pole vaulter. So I was like, wow, if I can pole vault, that's the hardest event and I can. Yeah. So I just did it fasted. But I think I'll kind of do that approach like using carbs next time on the day. But train pretty fat.

But isn't, isn't the decathlon pretty, I guess what you would call phosphogenic, meaning most of the efforts are like 10 to 30 seconds.

They are, they're very short.

Yeah, yeah.

And then, well, they do have a 1500. So it's basically.

Oh, there's a 1500.

Yeah, but there's 100, 1500, there's hurdles, there's javelin, shot put, discus, long jump, they have all kinds of stuff. I don't think it was optimum the way I did it, but I don't know, I just kind of was messing around.

Well, you know, for something like that, I would certainly supplement with creatine for sure. You know, and you get creatine from muscle meat. But like just using a good like 5 to even 10 grams. If you haven't been using at this point, I wouldn't, I wouldn't use it now but you know, in future events you're loading with creatine. Could not loading with it, but using it consistently like every morning, five grams. And then you could use some like your race or your event morning fuel could be something like some sweet potato or something like that to top off the energy stores just a little bit. But a couple of ideas a I picked this up from a guy named Steve. I forget his last name. He worked for Hammer Nutrition. Basically his argument was that prior to an event if you eat a meal that's higher in carbohydrates based on the equation, I forget you might know this. What's the metabolic theory that the body will shift into substrate utilization based on the predominant substrate you are consuming. Like if you consume carbohydrates you're going to burn more carbs in the acute phase afterwards. If you eat more fats, you'll burn more fats in the acute phase afterwards. I did a whole podcast way back when with a gal about this and she had a whole article about it. Now I'm forgetting the name of the equation. Anyways, it's not even that important but aside from the fact that it sound really smart, if I could remember what it was, but it's that damn kava or kratom.

Oh, my head's a little floating.

Is it?

Yeah.

Okay. So yeah, I feel like I've had maybe like three cocktails right now, so hopefully this isn't too shitty of a podcast for people. But anyways, what his theory was that if you eat a high carbohydrate meal prior to an event, then you risk shifting yourself towards a state of carbohydrate utilization so effectively that you almost get a post meal hypoglycemic drop due to the insulinogenic response to the carbohydrates and that therefore what you should do if you are going to consume carbohydrates during is for your pre event meal have something that's higher in fat. And this is actually what I started doing for Ironman, such as for me it was just like a fatty coffee, right? With, with you know, a butter or coconut oil and you know, and some cinnamon and salt. You know, it's like a traditional fatty coffee type of approach. I'd say the actual B word for the, the actual coffee. But I don't want to cease and desist order for us using that without the trademark. So we'll just go with B. With B. Coffee.

Fatty coffee.

Actually, I think I can go with this because it's not trademarked. Dave Asprey's wonderful, remarkable recipe for coffee. And so when I would use that, basically I would be able to keep myself in fat burning mode. And then once the event began and the hypoglycemic issue was not as much of an issue because you become a lot more insulin sensitive and don't need as much insulin released once you're actually exercising. That's, that's the approach that worked really well for me. So it was like, don't have any carbohydrates until the event actually begins and then start having your carbohydrates. And that works pretty well. So, yeah, that'd be something to think about too.

Yeah, I'm interested in just longevity, I guess. I think everyone's kind of interested in that. And so you're talking about the carb refeed at night. This is kind of what I landed on as the best way to do a diet, I think. And I want to get your take. Okay, so it's like you're fat adapted. You maybe get fat adapted for a period of time, but then add in the carbs back in at night. And I just think you kind of get the best of both worlds. What do you think?

Well, yeah, I mean, not only do you get the best of both worlds for the reasons that I dictated earlier, meaning that you top off your carbohydrate levels, yet still are in a relative state of fatty acid utilization the majority of the 24 hour cycle. With a brief foray out of ketosis and fat burning due to that evening carbohydrate refeed. You can ensure that you more rapidly return to a state of fatty acid utilization by engaging in or consuming something that would be a glucose disposal agent or, or that would cause you to be more insulin sensitive prior to that evening carbohydrate refeed. And for that, the best thing is prior to your dinner that's going to include carbohydrates, you would do either a weight training session or a high intensity interval training session or cold thermogenesis and. Or you would consume a glucose disposal agent like berberine or bitter melon, or even like if you were out at a restaurant, you go up to the bar and just order a bunch of bitters on ice. That's also a good half if you don't have anything on you. Ceylon cinnamon apple cider vinegar, any of these traditional GDAs probably the best one right now being dihydroberine, which is a form of berberine that seems to work very well. Or tooting my own horn. The product I developed is the Kion Lean. That's why I use Kion Lean, which is bitter melon extract, chromium and vanadium and anything like that prior to that evening carbohydrate refeed is going to make you able to return to your state of fatty acid utilization much better. Plus, the carbohydrates that you consume with dinner allow for greater serotonin response to the carbohydrates, thus resulting in better sleep due to the melatonin upregulation that occurs from the carbohydrate feed. And then, as if that weren't enough advantages of this. The other cool thing is when you, when you have carbohydrates for your evening meal, you tend to allow yourself to be more social, right? Because what's the most social meal of the day? Typically the one where you might be going out to dinner or having a meal with the family where there's four different food groups on the table, some of which contain carbohydrates. What's the meal that might be the least, I guess, in your control if you are going out to a restaurant or to someone's house for dinner? Well, it's dinner. So why not hack your day or engineer your your day such that dinner would be the most macronutrient, flexible meal for you. Because if you're one of those people, like a lot of people are, who has total control of and less social effects on your breakfast and your lunch. And for me, my breakfast and my lunch every day is the same thing. Breakfast is kind of like a ketogenic superfood smoothie and lunch is like a salad with some fish or nuts or whatever. Then by saving all your carbohydrates for dinner, you're making yourself just a funner person to be around socially and not feeling like you got to go to a steakhouse and just order a stick of butter and some steak.

Well, this is great because this is the best of all worlds. Yeah, this is what I've been trying to think about forever. And it's like you have a longevity Mode for say 21 hours a day. I call it longevity mode. And then growth mode for say three hours a day. So I do do my workout. So I'm in growth mode. I'm doing my workout, right? I'm doing like brief, intense exercise. I sprint, I do weights, I do weighted body Weight like dips and pull ups with like £40. And then I eat, you know, a steak with some carbs and I feel like that. Yeah, just the best of all worlds.

Perfect example. Last night I went to, to Arlo Gray at my hotel, Paul Saladino and Luke Story and Stefano Sifondos and I had dinner. I love to have dinner with people. All three of those guys have been on my podcast. Yeah, and it's fun because what winds up happening, you know, opening the kimono for our listeners is like when people who have podcasts together get together. It's almost like the podcast just keeps going and we keep talking about all this crazy at dinner. And so I, I was working during the afternoon, I know I had dinner. I took a peek at the menu as I'm prone to do, just to see, you know, what, what is going to be available to order. And I saw some things that, like sweet corn and carrots, Texas tomato salad with sourdough bread, like a watermelon gazpacho, like some elements of the menu that dictated that I was like, oh, okay, so there's some decent carbohydrate option and they're not Twinkies and donuts, so I'll have carbs tonight for sure. And prior to that dinner, I dropped into the gym, I did a 5 by 10 deadlift, I took a cold shower, I grabbed my lean and I went to dinner and I ordered a bitters forward cocktail with dinner. And so all of those things just shifted me into a state where I could punish a bunch of sourdough bread and stuff. And I'm not wearing my continuous glucose monitor on this trip. I wear it for about a week out of every month or so. But I guarantee that by doing all that stuff before dinner. I'm super carb sensitive and it's not as though you're people are probably thinking, oh my gosh, you just turned dinner into an hour and a half long preparatory affair by the time I exercise and do my cold shot. But what I'll do is I'll just say, okay, well part of my workout today, I'll just shorten the morning workout and make the evening workout a little bit longer or something like that. So as long as you think ahead and you plan ahead, I think the carbohydrates refeed strategy works really well.

I think it's, it's the best way to live. Two, I did two meals a day. I just like to eat a lot in two meals instead of three. But man, okay, so I was, I was Gonna bring up alcohol. So I. So if people do. Oh, yeah, yeah, we got a long time ago.

So.

So for alcohol, if you're gonna drink, I think, I mean, I like to drink socially, right. It's like, I know some people in the health community. They're just like, I don't drink at all. I'm so healthy. I'm like, I appreciate that. But I do like to be social and have a drink on the weekends. And I'll do tequila and soda water is my go to. But so if. Do you have any other, like, tips for people who, if they do drink, how to. What to do before or after?

Yeah, for sure. Hide your car keys? No. Well, when you say drink, because let me. Let me say this. What I don't want to do. And I sometimes question if I should have done this. In my book Boundless, I have like two pages that's like the party protocol or the Vegas protocol, whatever you want to call it, where it's. It's basically like, okay, so you're going to go Taiwan on and you're going to like, have a lot to drink. Here's what to do. And it's everything from like the charcoal tortillas in the morning to the glycine and the activated charcoal and everything by the. By the bedside and the electrolytes and a glass of water for every glass of elk alcohol that you consume. And ideas for the cleanest burning stuff like tequila or vodka or gin or organic wine versus, like a margarita mix or a super sugary protocol. Like, it's. It's all in there, right? We can fill up like an hour with. With those couple of pages in the book. But the reason that I sometimes question that is I'm just. I just don't endorse drunkenness. You know, I. I value sobriety. And. And part of that is because, well, it's multifold. A. I'm a Christian, and the Bible has told me to be sober and to not be in a state of drunkenness. And I think that's wise just because we don't want a bunch of people out, like, beating their spouses and poisoning their livers.

We don't want drugs. But, like, have a couple drinks.

Yeah, like having a couple drinks. And by the way, I should note that because I have a big article coming out about this on my website tomorrow. Actually, when I say that I value sobriety, some people like, okay, but you've done ayahuasca and you've journeyed with psilocybin and you've used plant Medicines and that's being drunk. I don't think that you can. I think if you take a ceremonial plant medicine in the proper set and setting and it's highly controlled and for a specific intention and it's not some crazy party where you're going into the K hole or something like that. I don't equate that to drunkenness and I think that the spirit of any wisdom given in the Bible or elsewhere about valuing sobriety is dictating that because you don't want a bunch of drunk, irresponsible people wandering the streets. I think doing ketamine in a doctor's office under close supervision or doing a psilocybin facilitated psilocybin journey in a highly controlled set and setting, I don't think that's drunkenness. But anyways, rabbit hole. But back to, you know, you're having a couple drinks. So first of all I think that of course the clean burning alcohols are super, super important. So that that means if you're a beer person, you make sure you're drinking, you know, organic non GMO based grains. There are even some wheat free versions of beer that you can have. You know, some of the gluten free stuff tastes kind of crappy. But go as organic as you can with selected ingredients on beer. For wine, go with something very similar to the dry farm wines approach where it is low irrigated crops that have not been subjected to as much water and grown in a traditional European biodynamic type of style. Old world wines, because they don't get as much water, they have lower amounts of sugar, slightly lower amounts of alcohol. The grape is more concentrated in antioxidants. So like an organic biodynamic wine. And if you're out drinking and you don't know and organic and biodynamic isn't on the menu then Italy, France and New Zealand are the three countries that tend to still use primarily organic and biodynamic methods and shout out to dry farm wines because that's the majority of the wine that we drink at our house. And I just get a case of that sent to my house.

I had some of it last night.

Yeah, yeah. And then aside from that, tequila, vodka and gin are all pretty clean. They burn pretty clean. They're not like, you know, stay far away from mixes like Margaret or seltzers or like any of these pre made cheerleader drinks as my wife calls them, that are just super duper sugary. Oh yeah, you just lost all your cheerleaders by the way. And then I if I'm having more than a couple of drinks than something that will mop up some of the, like the acetaldehyde and ethanol and that would be activated charcoal or chlorella. Glycine can also work pretty well for both vegetable oils and for alcohol as like, like a hack, like 2 to 4 grams of glycine. Which is nice also because glycine will lower your body's core temperature prior to sleep. And so that can also help with sleep. And then there is an extract that is remarkable at that post drinking morning haze that just cleans out your system. And it acts very similar to what I would have recommended in the past, which would be like N acetylcysteine or glutathione for helping your liver to detox the alcohol. You can take that the night of or the morning after or both. But there is another supplement that Sean Wells turned me onto and I'll find it because I just started using it this past month. Let me look up the name of this. It's like a raisin extract. Dr. William Seeds, who I interviewed on my podcast about peptides, he had developed something called a chill pill which was kind of similar to the ingredients in this one, but it's called dihydromyrisitin. Dihydromyrisin. I could only find one company that makes it called Super Smart, but about three capsules of that in the morning, like just beats the pants off. Glutathione and acetylcysteine. Anything else I've tried in that respect. So you know that and just hydration. The other thing that I always travel to bars with in my fanny pack actually, unless your dog just ate them because I don't have them any longer, is some type of really good tasty electrolyte blend. Rob Wolf has his company Element. I've been using this one made by a guy interviewed on my podcast a couple months ago, a Navy SEAL named Nick Norris. He developed this really tasty electrolyte blend that has lemon and raspberry called Protect. And then in a pinch, I guess pun intended, I'll also just sometimes have a little Ziploc bag with a really good, good salt. And so I'll typically order in between my drinks, sparkling water on ice. And I'll add electrolytes to it and or salt. And then the other thing that I add to it is hydrogen tablets which are a really good anti inflammatory and antioxidant. So typically I'll have like, let's say I'm gonna have Three cocktails because, and, and for me that, that's a party baby. Like I'm, I'm, I'm going off the rails. I'm having three cocktails and so I'll have a cocktail like a really good bitters, forward vodka, gin, tequila, whatever. And then have electrolytes with a hydrogen tablet, then have a cocktail, then I've electrolytes with a hydrogen tablet, then a cocktail, then electrolytes with a hydrogen tablet. Get back to the hotel or the room or wherever, pop some charcoal or some chlorella and some glutathione or that dihydromericitone I just talked about the next morning. Same thing, glutathione, dihydromyrcetin. And that's a basic protocol.

That's good, helpful. And I heard vitamin E is a good hack. If you're going to eat at a restaurant there might be seed oils and that type of thing that if you have a vitamin E in your pocket it'll help kind of protect.

Yeah, vitamin E is a pretty good solution for everything from controlling the formation of non alcoholic fatty liver disease in response to high fructose or high alcohol consumption to. Sorry, I just blanked that darn kava kratom. Feel free. What was the compound we were just talking about? It was not glycine. You just named it. What we're talking about, I don't know.

Vitamin E. Vitamin E. Vitamin E. Okay.

We'Re back. We should leave this in there just so the listeners can chuckle. This isn't quite to the level of Tim Ferriss when he drunk dials his listeners. I'm hoping we're still giving lucid advice here. So anyways, vitamin E can help with that. It's a pretty good antioxidant too. High doses post exercise you want to avoid because it can blunt some of the mitochondrial and hormetic response to exercise. But in the scenario of a toxin like alcohol or a high intake of.

Fructose, or specifically seed oils too, or.

Seed oils, it could be helpful probably. I would say if you're going to take vitamin E, get a good blend of both the tocopherols and the tocotrienols. Like a lot of vitamin E, it's just like one or two of the tocopherols, one plant based compound called Annatto and the company Designs for Health has a pretty good version of this. Their Annatto is like all four tocopherols and all four tocotrienol animals. I think that Thorne's vitamin E product is similar in that respect. So Basically, what I'm saying is not all vitamin E is created equal. Make sure you get a good one. So, yeah, vitamin E for that or for vegetable oil exposure. And then Dr. James Nicolantonio had a research paper that came out a couple of years ago in which he showed that spirulina and also glycine, which I mentioned earlier, are both very effective at controlling some of the oxidative and cell membrane damage that occurs in response to vegetable oil consumption. So let's say you're eating that. Granted, it's cold expeller pressed canola oil, non gmo, a little bit better than your average canola oil at Whole Foods, and you're at the whole food salad bar and you're dishing up your plate and everything, then just swing through the supplement section and grab some glycine and. Or some spirulina and you can have that after you've had the canola oil. And it's going to control and kind of like mop up some of the damage image.

Okay, I like this. So I'm making the film we were talking about Food Lies. I'm trying to. Yeah, like, put everything you've ever learned, I've ever learned, we've all ever learned into one film. What do you think are the biggest problems? Like, I'm always interested in, like, how did we get in this mess? Right. Why is 88% of Americans, you know, metabolically unwell? And so how. What would you. What message would you put in a film? Like, what are the. I was telling you what I was gonna do. What? We're saying meat is a health food, and we're saying, avoid the processed, refined grains, sugars and seed oils. Like, do you think that that's it? Like, how do you. How do you. How do you boil it down? You know, there's so much going on, there's so many theories. Like, what do you think it is?

We could dish out theories till the cows come home, even though I don't know what that means, because I'm not a farmer or a rancher, and I've never quite understood that analogy or metaphor or saying. And we could kind of do the whole echo chamber thing that every other podcast on the face of the planet is doing. Eat real food, don't have vegetable oils, be careful with excess sugar, yada, yada, yada. Like, we know. Thank you. But here's where I feel that the disconnect lies. Because I have children, there's still a prevailing. Almost like this. This prevailing fault or philosophy, especially in parenting, where you don't want your kid to be weird and you want your kid to grow up, like, having the life that a lot of other kids have. Like, you grew up in America. Like, you gotta have a. You gotta have had a Big Mac and you gotta have gone to In N Out Burger and like, what, you've never had a Twinkie. That's like a classic American food. And oh my gosh, there'd be nothing better than after this 4th of July party than to do our traditional greasy pizza. Because that's what our dad did and that's what our grandpa did, and that's just like our tradition. And I feel like there's almost like this approach, especially amongst parents, because I see this a lot is all the other kids are having cake, so it's okay to have cake too. Even though all the parents, when you talk to them at the party, they're like, yeah, I'm gluten free and I'm super healthy, but let the kids be kids. Like, let them have their. Let them grow up like, you know, enjoying all of our American comfort foods or enjoying whatever up here in Canada. Like, you got to have poutine. And so the problem is that I think we still have a lot of societal pressure to not be weird, to not deprive our children of having a normal upbringing. And so they should be able to have these foods to like. Like, it's going to be hard for us to say, okay, you're going to throw a birthday party, but at the birthday party we're going to have like coconut ice cream and, and, you know, root beer floats made with like real sarsaparilla and, you know, and wonderful, like more of the good stuff versus the junk food. Because junk food is. Is woven into culture as such a, like a tradition and a go to that. It's uncomfortable in many social scenarios to extricate that. And so I think really where it starts is parents educating their children to be themselves and do what they know is right and be educated about the consequences, including the metabolic food consequences of the decisions that they make and to not be who the world expects them to be and to be okay with being weird and defying social norms and when all like, being actually like dad. And when you go to a birthday party where there's going to be cupcakes and stuff, you've got like a really good, like raw cacao dark chocolate bar slipped into your backpack and you're going to have that while everybody else is having cupcakes. And this sounds trite, but in many Cases. Shifting. Shifting a habit that's deleterious to a culture starts with parenting. It starts with the kids. And so if every parent were to just start to educate their children better and also tell their kids, look, it's okay if you don't have cake, some of the other kids might think that's weird, but dad's going to take you out to ice cream tomorrow night, and here's a dark chocolate bar you can take to the party. And I think that that would make a bigger dent than a lot of people realize if we were to just get a lot of this junk food out of tradition, out of vernacular, out of expectations of what a child should be able to have the joy of experiencing through childhood. Because what happens is they finally turn, like 25 and start to have some metabolic issues and start to look into healthy eating and healthy food and realize that what they've been doing for the past couple of decades was just swallowing hook, line, and sinker what everybody else in society. Society was doing because they needed to be cool or not be a social outcast from a food and drink standpoint. And if. If we can. If we can get kids to the point where rather than making a bunch of crappy mistakes and like, fixing them later in life when it's finally time to lose weight because you're. Or whatever, or you fix yourself because you're suffering metabolically. If you just never went through that phase, right? If you just grew up eating healthy food because that's what people do, then I think. I think that that would make a huge difference. Like, it should be weird to have a Big Mac. Like, if you're having a Big Mac, people's be like, why would you do that? Yeah, like, that's weird. Like, that's like you're eating dog shit. And we have to get to that point in society.

That's the goal. I. Yeah, but it's like, how do we get there? You got to teach people also. So I just came from beach volleyball. I'm getting sand all over my couch.

That's okay. I got a wrap pretty soon. Yeah, I have to check out of my hotel soon. That's.

That's true. So. Well, I was gonna say. So I talk to these people. They're like the normal people, right? So I'm hanging out with these beach volleyball people. I'm trying to tell them all the stuff, the health. You know, I'm sure you get into all these conversations and you're trying to download people on all this information, and they're just like, my Thing is that you can give them all the information, but actually doing it is another thing. So this is what you're talking about. It's like how to actually live lifestyle if you can know everything, but actually doing it is the hard part. And also I think changing your community, you're talking about like changing parenting. But if you, if your community of people around you do it, then you're not weird. So that's what I was trying to say. So now I'm in Austin, you know, I'm hanging with people that are like minded. And now I am not the weird person because we go, we have a barbecue and everyone just shows up with healthy food, right? And so, yeah, I don't know how to get there too.

Healthy food, comma, that is tasty and that's really good. And I think that when we hear this idea, and this has been shown in research, that I don't want to fat shame. But like fat people, a lot of times are fat because a lot of their friends are fat or unhealthy people are unhealthy because the people they hang out with are also unhealthy. And then the healthy people hang out with the healthy people. So we have this rift in society, right? We have the healthy people hanging out with healthy people and the unhealthy or fat people hang out with fat people. And what then needs to occur is you have to start inviting your unhealthy friends or your overweight friends to these same type of events, but just make sure they're always outnumbered. And that's what I love about the dinner parties that I throw at my house is, you know, I'll have somebody at the party who is not accustomed to eating healthy food that's actually tasty. They think they're, they're, they're accustomed to like what's the bodybuilding meal? Broccoli and chicken. What they call brick, right? They're accustomed to brick and being healthy. Like giving my lean chicken breast with no oil and no salt on it and some unflavored broccoli that's steamed and maybe a little bit of white rice on the side. And they'll show up to my house and it's like a coffee and cacao rubbed fatty ribeye steak and a glass of organic wine and some type of amazing natural gluten free carrot cake and some baked sweet potato fries along with the meat. And people eat that and they're like, how do you not gain weight on this food? How is this healthy? And I'm like, because this Is like God actually made some really great, like, ingredients. And when prepared properly, like you can, you can eat really, really well. And yeah, you still need a certain amount of self control. Let's face it, at the end of the day, like calories in, calories out, like, there's a lot to be said for that equation. And you can get fat on ribeye.

Steak just the same if you eat like 10 pieces of that carrot cake.

Right? Yeah, right, exactly. But that's kind of the idea too is you want to do what you're doing, Brian, but then bring people who are unhealthy or who aren't accustomed to that into, into the crowd, into the circle. And then they go out to their friends and we just start to spread the word.

Well, that's how to make it sustainable. I always try to spread this message of I'm so lucky that I found this and get to eat this food.

Right.

It's like every meal to me is amazing treats. And if people knew that they could have an amazing treat as a healthy meal, then maybe they'd actually do it. Right. It's like the.

Yeah. That's why I just wrote a cookbook. Did you?

I'm writing a cookbook too.

I promise that's my last shameless plug. Yeah. So, yeah, I think that education is a big part of it. But education with love, not with shaming. Yeah. And acting on it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I have another plug. I gave you this biltong. You can take it on the plane.

Thank you.

So my nose to tail company makes this biltong.

I'll hold it up for your camera. Grass fed beef. And then biltong is. It's kind of like jerky, but it's more like dense and moist, right?

Well, yeah, it's slow air dried instead of like baked at a high temperature to dehydrate like jerky so it's softer.

Wow, this looks really good. And I'm going to totally punish this on the plane. Go for it.

Yeah, I know you got to go, but next time we could play some volleyball. I didn't know you. You played volleyball back in the day.

I did. I played middle for University of Idaho. So I was a short middle at 6 2, but back then I had hops until I got into endurance sports and converted a lot of my fast switch into slow twitch. But I, I still, I like me some twos or threes on the beach for sure. So I'm in next next time. I'm gonna be back in Austin in October for my friend Joe DiStefano's Runga event and I'll hang out for a few days and we'll definitely get some beach volleyball in. As long as you promise to go to a little cold swim at Barton Springs with me.

I'll do that. That's great to jump in after. Good stuff, man. Good meeting you. At Paul's. We we crush some cornhole. I think we won 15 0.

We we beat Paul Saladino and his girlfriend 15 0. So they probably should have had more plants prior to that game. And yeah, I guess the last thing is we should title this podcast like Drunken Banter or something like that. So again, my apologies to folks if I lost track there a few times during the show. I'm going to blame it on this feel free plant based tonic, but honestly.

It'S not bad if you don't want to drink. We talked about alcohol. This is a pretty good alternative to alcohol. Call. I feel like I'm bust.

Yeah, like I feel like I'm buzzed too. I. I'd actually liked. I think Khalil told me he was going to ship me a box of this stuff, so I'm gonna. What I like to do is sometimes find out what my. What my ceiling dose is. So I may try two or three of these. But I tell you what, it's a little bit different taking it and having a microphone in front of your face because you get kind of self conscious and you're like, do I sound drunk right now? Versus if you just drinking it at a dinner party and just chatting with a bunch of people. But. But yeah, shout out to these folks. Botanic Tonics. Feel free. Maybe I'll see if I can hunt down a like a deal or something from them. I'll send it over to you if I do. So. Thanks for having me on, man.

All right, man, I guess let's just wrap it up.

All right, that's a wrap. Boom. Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the show notes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful Ben Recommends page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormones, sleep digestion, fat loss, performance, and plenty more. Please also know that all the links, all the promo codes that I mentioned, mentioned during this and every episode help to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. So when you listen in, be sure to use the links in the show notes use the promo codes that I generate because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week. SA.