Forsaking A Relentless Pursuit Of A Better Body: How To Find More Purpose & Meaning In "Fitnessing" & Make A Bigger Difference In The World.

Hey, it's Ben Greenfield. I'm gonna get a little bit serious and life changing with you today. I'm not gonna talk about poop and enemas and stem cells and fringe injections.

Or anything like that.

I'm gonna talk about bigger picture matters. See, I have a purpose that I have very clearly outlined for my life, and that is to empower people, people just like you, to live a more adventurous and joyful and fulfilling life. But even more importantly than that, I have a filter that I use to make important decisions in life. A filter that I filter everything through. And it's not just that core purpose that I just described to you to empower people to live a more adventurous and joyful and fulfilling life. But it is whether or not when I make a decision in life, if it is satisfying that particular purpose, but also whether or not it's loving others. Whether or not it's loving others. And I always choose the option that allows me to love others the most, that allows me to make a difference in the lives of others the most. So if I have the option to say, empower you to live a more adventurous life by going out and, and doing, let's say, some crazy adventure race versus me leading a group of people who want to learn how to do that adventure race on a quest there at the race itself to bring you through it and help you, I'll choose the latter because it more meaningfully loves others.

Now.

He'S an expert in human performance and nutrition, voted America's top personal trainer and one of the globe's most influential people in health and fitness. His show provides, provides you with everything you need to optimize physical and mental performance. He is Ben Greenfield.

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Hey, folks, it's Ben Greenfield. And I think it was about, gosh, like three years ago that I read these two, what I consider to be life changing books. These books that I read, one was called Unfinished and the other one was called Hole in the Gospel. And I'll link to these in the show notes, which I'll give to you guys here briefly. These books were written by a man named Rich Stearns. And Rich is the president of this company called World Vision. And World Vision is a global humanitarian organization that partners with kids and families and communities to tackle things like poverty and injustice. And within just a few weeks after reading those books, I changed a lot of things in my life. I started to work on creating the gratitude journal that I'm sure many of you are aware of by now, that I wrote to be able to help and serve others and write down who I was going to help and serve each day. My children and I, through World Vision. Well, my children, my wife can't leave her out. And we adopted a little girl from Ethiopia, meaning we send her little gifts and financial support each month and letters back and forth so that we can connect with someone in another country who needs our help. We began volunteering more in our local community. Like now I deliver food to 50 kids at a local poverty stricken elementary school who would normally not be able to even eat a meal on the weekend. And I outlined a lot of this in an article that I wrote after I read Rich's book. Like, the importance of things like not just purpose and passion in life, and not just love and relationships, and not just belief in a higher power, which I personally have a strong belief in, but also the importance of giving to others. And not just like exercising for the sake of exercising, but kind of going above and beyond just caring about your own body and brain and spirit and helping to bring others to the next level, so to speak. And that's why I'm incredibly stoked about getting the guy who worked with World Vision to design this initiative on the podcast today. So his name is Chris Shore and Chris is the Chief Development officer of the entire THRIVE Economic Empowerment program we're going to talk about today. You're going to learn a lot today about what happens in third world countries when it comes to soil and farming and water and issues that really should be near and dear to your heart, considering that you live in a country that, that actually doesn't take very good care of its own soil and crops. And so we're going to delve into that a little bit. But Chris is basically in charge of this entire initiative. He works with and for World Vision. And I'm very, very excited to kind of make the next move so that you and I can help all of these hardworking families in other countries break the cycle of extreme poverty for good. So, Chris, thanks for coming on the show, man.

Absolutely. Glad to be here, Ben.

Yeah. And I have heard through the grapevine you are a bit of a cyclist. Tell me a little bit about that.

Well, I took up cycling when my knees kind of gave out on me from too much running. And so I'm a road biker Here in Southern California, I like to get the wheels moving and like to try and get in some distances as well. I like to run or ride the occasional century ride. So, yeah, I. I like the road bike. I've tried. I've become a spectacularly crashing mountain biker, too. So the. The geometry is a little different. I've learned.

The geometry is way different, dude. Like, one of the. One of the best things I did to my mountain bike was I installed one of those seats that's like a. It's almost a hydraulic seat where you've got a. You've got lever up on your handlebars, and you can press that and automatically make the seat go up and down, whether you're descending or ascending. That was the best investment I ever made in my mountain bike to address the whole geometry issue.

I think that's a good idea. I think I gotta take you up on that one, Ben.

Yeah, check it out. And by the way, when it comes to cycling, have you seen this new. This new Netflix documentary? And I'm not a big documentary guy, but this is. I watched it, and it blew my mind. It's called Icarus. It's about the. Not just. Not just doping and cycling, but the entire Russian doping scandal. This guy busted wide open.

Yeah, definitely not the kind of thing that we want to be encouraging, that's for sure.

Yeah, yeah. You got to check out this documentary. And for those of you listening. And by the way, I'll link to that in the. In the show notes for today's show. And you can access the show notes if you just go to BenGreenfieldFitness.comWorldville that's BenGreenfieldFitness.com WorldVision and of course, we're not here to talk about the Russian doping scandal today, Chris. We're here to talk about World Vision, what this whole economic empowerment program is and why I want to support it so, so badly. So before we jump into the actual program, how did you kind of. Kind of get involved with World Vision in the first place?

Well, it was a bit of a surprise. I hadn't actually planned on working in development. My background is in finance and in business. And many years ago now, when the Berlin Wall fell, found myself as a consultant looking for a different gig. The company I was working for had just entered bankruptcy, and that's when I got a call to get involved in something called economic development and joined initially a group called the Mennonite Economic Development Associates that had started.

That's a mouthful.

Yeah, Mita. It's smaller Cheaper, faster, to call it Mida. So Mida was one of the pioneers in something called microfinance back in the 70s, making small loans to people to help them build their own small business. And they asked me to go to the Soviet Union, which quickly became the former Soviet Union, and help in that part of the world. And that's interesting.

See, I knew this was all going to come back to Russia.

Yeah. Not just doping, and got involved in economic development and helping people start small businesses and move themselves economically. And then ran into World Vision, and they asked us to give them a hand. And so I joined World Vision 20 years ago now, and I've had the privilege of helping people all over the world improve their own lives through different economic development aspects.

Yeah. So I go hiking sometimes with a guy who comes through Spokane from World Vision, because you guys are. I know one of your headquarters in Seattle. So Randy comes through every once in a while. He's like my contact at World Vision, and we go on hikes. And we were on this hike, and he was telling me about this concept that just for some reason it attracted me so much, probably because I'm into nutrition and I'm into soil and agriculture and organic farming and a lot of these things that help us to take care of. Of God's good Earth. And he started to tell me about this concept of you guys teaching farmers how to farm and teaching people in third world countries how to grow food, which for me was incredibly unique because all I'm familiar with is, you know, I send, you know, money and gifts and letters to a little girl in Ethiopia, and I help to support World Vision each month. And typically, what I'll designate is just like, give. Give the money to whatever it's needed for most. Right. But I hadn't been aware that you guys were actually starting to help people take care of themselves. And one of the things that I think he was telling me about, that I'd love to hear you explaining in greater detail because you could probably do a better job of it than me, is this concept of generational poverty that occurs in these other countries outside of, you know, the. You know, a lot of our listeners are Australia and UK and the US And Canada. But explain to me what's going on with generational poverty in a lot of these other countries.

Okay, well, let me explain poverty just in general a little bit. The world has been trying to get rid of poverty now for quite some time. It was part of a big effort that the United nations led called the Millennium Development Goals, and the World has been really, really successful, actually, in reducing and even eliminating extreme poverty. We've gone from about 35% of the world's population living in extreme poverty in 1990 to under 10% today. So 35% to 10% in the last. What is that, 35 years or so? Huge improvement. Huge improvement. But the people who are still living in poverty right now are largely smallholder farmers, people who farm small amounts of land. And for generations, these people have only known extreme poverty. They've never grown their farming business, if you will, from being anything more than a way to feed themselves. And they've always been right at the edge of if there was any kind of shock, like somebody got sick or it didn't rain, or it rained too much, that they would lose basically everything and have to start all over again.

So these are these farmers who are just like, growing food for themselves, or are these farmers who are growing food for other people in their community or their tribe or their country?

Most of the time, Ben, they're growing food mostly for themselves. So it's what we would call a subsistence farmer. They're growing enough to subsist on, but not enough to make it what we would call a commercial operation. They would barter some of it in order to get enough to buy clothing, for example, and fuel, but largely just enough to survive and to give themselves an income that keeps them locked in poverty. But it's not just the economics that keep them in poverty. It's also a mindset, a worldview that has said, you know, here in Africa, I cannot move myself out of poverty because the spirits are keeping me in poverty. Or if I begin to move myself out of extreme poverty, then somebody is going to bewitch me, and the witch doctors will cast a spell on me and I'm going to be cursed or that. Yeah, it's an amazing situation that in.

Today'S world, what countries are we talking about this happening? What's an examp of a country or farming community where you've seen this kind of stuff happening?

Oh, Tanzania, Kenya, Zambia, Rwanda. Just keep going. Mozambique, all across Africa, frankly.

Have you ever been to any of these farms?

Oh, yes, many times. I've spent a lot of time in Africa and have talked to people about this, and we began to really see this as a problem when we would have what we knew were the types of things that people, if they just did it, they would move out of poverty when we saw people hesitating to do it, and when we probed deeper, we found out there's a big Worldview issue that we have to start at if we want people to really move forward economically, at least in those places in Africa.

So basically they've got this worldview that's like, rooted in powerlessness and self worth and. And your lack of self worth, I guess it would be. And that's like a vicious cycle. So their kids grow up that way and their kids. Kids grow up that way, and you just continue to have these people who. Any flood, any market fluctuation, any emergency, it just cripples their business. They can't open a bank account, they can't get a loan. So they just continue to live in extreme poverty with their farm just on the. On the threat of getting ruined.

Absolutely, that's exactly right. It's the two things together. It's the actual farm or business of farming that is keeping them at a subsistence level. But it's the mindset. It's that worldview that traps them there and then traps their children in the same place and the like, because they've been in. They themselves are not the first generation to be. To be in that situation. This is a multigenerational problem.

How often do you go to Africa?

I was just there. I'm there probably three, four times a year. And that's a real slowdown. I was usually there, oh, eight to ten times a year.

Oh, wow. Soso, do you. Do you yourself, like, struggle when you're over there with things like sickness or I guess what they call Montezuma's revenge when you go to Mexico or a lot of these issues people get when they go to Africa. I mean, it seems like I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, but I know a lot of these third world countries. I mean, there's a lot of disease. How do you take care of yourself?

Oh, you know, an experienced traveler learns to wash your hands frequently. Some of these things we learn in kindergarten actually makes sense. Wash your hands frequently. Don't eat at places where you don't know how the food's been cooked. If there are waterborne diseases around then don't eat salads and other things that have got a lot of water going on.

I learned that lesson in Jamaica. Don't eat the tomatoes in Jamaica.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

So have you actually been to, like, spent time on any of these farms? I'm just curious what it's like.

I have a lot of time, Ben. They're small. I mean, the average size of them is 1 to 2 acres. So relatively small, very poor. Most of the houses before people start Working with us are made out of mud and sticks for the walls with a thatch roof. There's usually no lighting. There's a lot of indoor smoke from cooking fires. The children may or may not be going to school in Africa. In many parts of the world, while education is technically free, if you don't have a uniform or if you haven't paid the special fees for books and materials, you can't go so often on the farm, the kids aren't going to school. Dietary diversity, the variety of foods that people would be eating is usually pretty bad. Usually eating one to two meals a day, not more. So it's poor. It's really poor. Often having to walk for water long distances. Often having to walk long distances to try and get fuel wood and the like. It's a tough life. It's a really hard life. It's not. Not pleasant. This is not. This is not idyllic, that's for sure.

So. So when you show up on one of these farms, you know, I know that the Economic Empowerment Program in general, that is. That's run. It's all under thrive. Is that correct? Like, World Vision has Thrive, and Thrive runs the Economic Empowerment Program.

That's correct. And thrive. Thrive is a word. We like the word thrive, and it stands for transformed Household Resilience in Vulnerable environments.

But we call it Thrive, Transform, Transforming Household Resilience in Vulnerable environments.

Yep, that's it.

So you're basically trying to make these households more resilient in a vulnerable environment.

Yeah, absolutely. And what we've learned is there are two things that we want to do. These people are really, really poor. They're living in extreme poverty. They're right at the edge of, you know, frankly, of survival. And so we want their incomes to go up massively. You know, we really want them out of extreme poverty, and we want that to happen in a way so that it's not that they get out, that they have a really good year one year, and the next year they're back crashing back down. We want it to be an improvement that lasts. Right.

You're trying to get rid of the generational issue.

Absolutely. Right.

Yeah.

We want them out of extreme poverty for good.

So, you know, return to this idea of, like, you know, teaching somebody how to fish rather than giving them a fish. What I want to dive into are some of the things that you specifically do, like, you know, boots on the ground when you show up at a farm or when, you know, somebody from World Vision shows up at a farm to help these people. What are the main things that you're doing, especially from a farming standpoint, as far as teaching them how to get out of this vicious cycle.

Okay, well, we go at it by addressing four big things. One we have to address, we've learned, and we just were talking about it, we have to address the mindset or the world worldview. So that's something that we explicitly address. A second is realizing that the farm is a business. It is not self actualization or anything like that. This is a way to make money. And so we have to think of the farm as a business. A second thing, however, is that while we're working on all those business issues, we also have to think about the farm as an ecosystem that sits inside of a bigger one. So it's a mini ecosystem. It's got dirt, it's got soil, I should say, it's got uses water, it's got plants and animals on it. How does that work? And how do you make that resilient? How do you make that farm produce all the time? And the third thing is that the farmer is not just running a business and not just managing an ecosystem, but they're actually needing to manage risk and investment. Their farm is their biggest investment. So how do they do that? How do they get the information they need to manage that? I would start, Ben, by saying one of the things that we do is we realize it's kind of a three dimensional look at the farm and realizing that we have to begin all of this with what we call an empowered worldview.

Okay, so when you talk about empowered worldview, rather than first coming in and telling people how to farm, how to take care of their soil, which I want to get into how you guys are doing that, you're actually first saying, okay, you got to have more of like a, like a world, like a spirit of abundance, or you got to like break the cycle of poverty and have a worldview that allows you to do that.

Yeah, we actually take people through about a five day seminar and we work with local faith leaders. They could be Christian ministers or pastors, could be Islamic imams or the like. But we work with the community to understand that you are, you as an individual have got capacity, you are creative, you are productive, you are responsible and you can do these things you've got.

So they just like show up in a classroom and you guys teach them these concepts. Almost like. It almost sounds like a mini Tony Robbins seminar in Africa.

Yeah. But the thing that we've learned is the action. Learning is the critical piece. So it's not just those things, it's okay, well, then, if you are capable and responsible and alike, let's think about your community a little bit. And often, no matter how poor people are, there are always people in their community that are even poorer. So one of the action learnings is, hey, if there's some orphans in your community and they're not going to school, how about you start something that can help them get their school fees so they can go back to school. And so people will think about little things that they can do. Like, hey, if you grow five chickens, I'll grow five chickens. And we'll put the eggs together and we'll sell them, and that'll produce enough money for us to get these kids back to school. And so people start learning that they can do things, they start taking these action steps. And the biggest action step that we've learned ties right into the economics of the farm. So the biggest thing that we do is we encourage absolutely everybody to get involved in what we call a savings group, where they learn how to save money together.

Interesting. So basically, are you starting an actual bank or are they just putting all this money into a central collection storage?

It's like their own little bank. And what they do is, and this is a real well scripted, standardized methodology. Not only World Vision uses it, but all kinds of other big organizations are using it and have worked together on it. So a group of people will get together and there'll be somebody that'll help train them and lay out all the different responsibilities. Because you have to have a treasurer. You have to have a kind of a person who's going to lead the meeting. You've got somebody that's doing all the recording. You got three people who each have a key. And without all three of them, they can't open up the cash box and they can't open up the records for the group. But the heart of it is real simple. They all save money. Every week, they agree how much money they're going to save. Every week they save that money. At the end of their little savings time, you got a pile of money sitting in the box. And then individuals from that group are gonna then lend that money, and they're gonna lend that money to other members of the group. So I'll put in a couple of dollars, and then I'll say, by the way, I need a $5 loan because I want to buy a cow. Or I want. No, maybe not a cow for $5. I want to buy a couple of chickens. And so I borrow money from the Group. And so I'm as a group member, I am saving money. I may be borrowing, but if somebody else borrows, they're going to pay the group interest. And so at the end of the year I've got all that money I've been saving, plus all the interest that we've made by charging each other interest. And we're all learning three big things.

Why don't they do this? Sorry to interrupt for a second, but why don't they do this already? Why? You would think that someone would have thought of the concept of group storage or a group bank before you guys came in and taught them this.

You know what, sometimes good ideas aren't well known. And then you think afterwards, well, why didn't we do this before?

Right?

How many times have we done that? Right. I never thought of that. That's a good idea. So it's not. It is something that is in most societies, Ben. But in this really well structured approach, we're finding that this really, really works well. And the reason it works really well one is it's getting people, they're obviously saving money. So they're creating what we call financial capital. They're also getting what we call human capital because they're learning how does finance work, how does interest work, how does a loan work? Because they're going to need that if they're going to want to improve their farm. And the third thing is they're learning to trust each other and work as a group on economic issues. It's those three things together as they're part of the savings group that really makes it really powerful. That's the action. Learning the empowered worldview leads directly into action. And that action of getting in the savings group is the core DNA of everything that we do in this Thrive program.

Okay, got you. So the first thing you do is you empower people to actually realize, realize that they can have this spirit of abundance and break the cycle of poverty. And then you move straight into brass tacks. Like here's how we actually create a central financial institution, basically a bank more or less where you guys can all work together, you organize them to work together. And in terms of like I noticed one word thrown around your website was the agricultural value chain. So not just ensuring they have access to financial services and supporting them in market access, but what's that mean to improve their agriculture agricultural value chain.

Okay, so let me take you into a real life example. A lot of time some of the people that we're working with are going to grow like corn. They call it maize but it's corn that they'll not sweet corn like we would have fresh right off the cob. It's corn that they would grow and then dry and they grind it up and make, you know, make, we would call it polenta I think, but maize meal and it's their staple crop. But you know what, if you farm that, you probably are not using good quality seeds. In fact, I've met a lot of people who thought in Africa who've thought it makes a lot of sense to use the same seeds my grandfather used. Well, an agriculturalist will tell you no, you know what, you want fresh seeds because after time, after many, many cycles of using that seed, it's going to get cross pollinated with other varieties of corn that aren't very good. And so if you want to be more productive, you probably want to be using high quality seeds in the time before. It's going to take time to improve. And we'll talk about this in a second. The soil. So one of the things that you're going to need to do before you get your soil quality up using natural organic mil methods, you're probably going to need a little shot of fertilizer to help that corn grow really well. So the agricultural value chain analysis takes you into thinking about every crop that the farmers are growing or might grow and what's the problem or opportunity in that set of activities and what do we need to do differently, what do we need to fix so that the farmer can make a lot more money in farming so that it's a real, it's a real simple idea. We use fancy language to describe it.

And you touched on soil. I've interviewed this guy, a guy in the US actually who I really like. His name is Joel Salatin. He wrote a great book called the Pigness of Pigs where he talks about how it annoys him so much when he'll go to church potlucks and people are eating Twinkies and GMO corn from the bag and all these things that kind of strip our planet of resources. But then he also really gets into this idea of, of soil that is, it is void of like nutrients and minerals and vitamins and how soil turnover in the US because of all these, I think, I think he calls them just basically like annual crops that we grow along with you know, CAFO farming and, and all the other horrible farming and agricultural practices that happen in the US basically deplete our soil lead, lead to poor soil and we aren't able to grow crops quite as well or they're not as rich in nutrients, et cetera. And there really isn't much natural resource management going on, even in the US With a lot of farmers over here. Now, what really kind of like, made my ears perk up when I was talking with Randy was he mentioned how another thing you guys teach, in addition to just like, this awareness of the spirit of abundance and then also the financial savvy to be able to create, like, local community bank, is this idea of natural resource management, like, treating the farm as an ecosystem that sits within a broader ecosystem. Can you. Can you touch on what you're actually teaching these farmers and. And give me examples of how you've changed, like how they manage their soil or their vegetation or, you know, their water?

Yeah, absolutely, Ben. Well, you know, if you're going to be a farmer and grow crops, you know, grow plants, you've got to think of your soil as that's your engine of growth. And if you don't take care of your soil, you will wear it out. Soil is something you need to invest in. A lot of people that do gardening here in the States or in Canada or in Australia will know that you should probably create some compost to enrich your soil.

Oh, yeah, we're always hauling poo around here. We've got goats and chickens. We even built up our barn in a way that. And actually speaking of Joel Salatin, and by the way, for those of you listening, and go to BenGreenfieldFitness.comWorldVision because I'll link to a lot of these resources in the show notes. But we actually built our little barn here for the goats and chickens to collect the poop from the animals in a very efficient way that allows us to then move the compost out into the garden, you know, where we have these eight raised garden beds right next to the poop. So, you know, there's a composting bin in between the barn and the garden. And, you know, my wife does a lot more of it than I do because I'm more on a keyboard than I am with my hands buried in poop. But she, yeah, she makes this. This compost and all, you know, over just three years, the garden has. Has transformed into almost like a jungle.

Yeah, yeah, that. Exactly right. So what you're doing is exactly what farmers everywhere really need to do with their soil. You need to invest in it. So one of the things that unfortunately happens in Africa is, for example, after the harvest, the farmers let the animals come in and eat everything that had been, like, the stalks from the corn and everything else. If you want to manage your soil, what you want to do is you want to get nutrients back in the soil and you want to keep water in your soil. And so it's a practice that you can, that we call conservation agriculture that says, okay, if you're going to do, if you want to build your soil quality, you should really try to do three things. One, keep your soil covered all the time. So if you, if you're gonna, if you're, if you're, if you've just harvested or between your planting cycles, keep your stocks and your leaf litter and organic matter on top of the soil so that it's covered. If you haven't got a cover crop, so keep it cool, keep it covered. And that's going to do two things. One, it's going to allow the bacteria and the nutrients to grow in the soil and it's going to keep the water in your soil. The second thing that you're going to want to try and do is don't till the soil very much. In fact, go to no till or a very low till approach. Because when you break up your soil, you're letting all the, you're letting a lot of the nutrients out. And you don't want to do that. You want to keep, you want to disturb your soil as little as you can. And the third thing you want to do is rotate your crops. So if you're growing corn all the time, anybody that grows corn a lot knows it's really tough on the soil. It takes a lot of nutrients to grow corn. So rotate that and put like beans or legumes and rotate those through your cropping cycle. Because they fix nitrogen out of the atmosphere into the soil. And as nitrogen, that's the natural fertilizer that's most fertilizer includes a lot of nitrogen. So there are lots of natural ways to manage your soil.

Yeah, and that's a good point. You know, growing the same crop in the same place for a lot of years in a row, there's actually a name for that. It's called monoculture. And it depletes the soil of a lot of nutrients. And you're right. When you, when you rotate crops, whether you're in your own garden or small farm or whatever, it not only mitigates the buildup of all these pathogens and pests that happen when one species gets continuously cropped, but you get a ton more soil fertility and soil structure because, and this was really interesting, I forget the name of the book that I read about this but when you introduce all these different root structures, because every crop has a different root structure into the soil. Soil, you get all this different biomass underneath the soil. And so that, you know when, when you just grow the same crop over and over again. Like I drive from, from my house here in Spokane down to Moscow, through the rolling wheat fields of the Palouse, and I do that, you know, usually about once a month because grandma lives down in Moscow, Idaho, on, on both sides. We bring the family down there and I see the same crop grown over and over. And I mean, literally I've been making that dry for like 15 years. And I just wonder like, how frickin, how frickin much more poor each year is the wheat that comes off of that particular field because it's just wheat, the next year wheat, the next year wheat. There's, there's absolutely no crop rotation at all.

Yeah, exactly. You, you, you want to, whenever you can, use the types of practices that are going to build soil fertility and soil moisture, you got, you just have to do that. So the conservation agriculture I was describing, the thing that you're seeing about monoculture. Yeah, you have to change that. You have to break that. And in fact, one of the things we do and promote, Ben, in certain parts of Africa is farming with trees. And so going to kind of an evergreen agriculture approach because there are certain trees in Africa, like one called Phydherbea albida, and it actually, its leaves are very high in nitrogen, so that's like fertilizer. And they drop their leaves during the growing season. So it's like it would be like here or in Spokane when in springtime it drops its leaves. It's like, no, that's when trees grow their leaves. Well, this is called a reverse phenology tree. It drops its leaves in the spring, puts them out in the fall, and it allows you to grow and keep more moisture in the soil because it's a little bit cooler because it's under the trees and get all the benefits of the nitrogen fixing roots, plus the nitrogen in the, in the leaves. So there are all kinds of things that we're trying to do to work with nature.

When you talk on, on your, your, you have a whole page and a whole video that goes into this. And again, for those of you listening, I'll link to that@BenGreenfieldFitness.com WorldVision but that when you talk about rehabilitating forests, is that what you're referring to, actually building up the forest around the farm?

Well, that's the Second one, that is, that is also very important. So you can build, you can get tree. More trees into itself. But also, if you cut down all the trees in your neighborhood, the water is just going to hit the soil and keep going. It's going to not stick around. You want trees in your neighborhood, you want trees on the hills because the trees are going to slow the rain down when it comes, allow the rain to trickle down into the ground, recharge the aquifer, recharge wells, recharge your springs. And all of a sudden you've got a place for birds that you're going to eat your bugs, you've got a place for bees that are going to pollinate your crops. And you've got a way to manage your watershed, your hills, for water, because all agriculture needs water. And so you want water at the root system of the plants, which is why we use conservation agriculture. It keeps water in the soil and we want water coming through the streams and everything else. And so we have to manage the hills for trees, we have to rehabilitate the forests, we have to manage the grasslands for exactly those reasons.

What about. And I know this is all about farming and agriculture, but when you're building up the forest like that. I'm personally a bowhunter, we haven't talked much about this, you know, but I hunt whitetail and turkey and, you know, I've. I've even now got a. To do this week to look into whether or not all of these squirrels and the chipmunks that I'm seeing around our property are indeed edible. Because I, I'm actually a fan of, you know, of the whole hunting part of things too. When you build up a forest like this around a farm, are many of these folks doing any, any hunting or collecting of animals, or are they primarily sick and collected with agriculture?

Well, their ancestors used to do a lot of hunting. Many of them were hunter gatherers. Some of them do and some of them will. And in fact, what you're getting to, is an interesting point I think, Ben, is that as you rehabilitate the forest, the animals start coming back. And we've seen that. In fact, we have a number of communities in Ethiopia where that was. One of the things that they're starting to see is there are so many animals that have come back that people are coming to see the animals in their community. They've got a lot more monkeys, they've got a leopard or two in the community. And this is because they've been rehabilitating the forest, which gives a place for the animals to live. So yeah, there are people that use the forest to collect food for themselves and do some hunting as well.

Amazing. Very cool. Okay, so we've got the, we've got the empowerment in terms of just like getting the psyche right. We've got the financial part of things. We've got the natural resource management. And then from what I understand, you guys also do a lot of like, you know, like, like you mentioned, you know, at the drop of a hat, these folks farm can get knocked out by emergencies that happen around them or animal or plant disease or whatever. So how are, how are you developing more emergency and situational awareness?

Well, it's something that is critical for anybody that's managing an investment. If you've got an investment in the stock market, probably you're going to pay attention and find out what is the stock market doing. You don't need to go to New York City or Chicago to find out. You can actually use the radio or the Internet or the newspapers to get information. Farmers do the same thing. They got big investments and what they do. And many people here in the US or in Canada or in Australia, if you're in a farming community, will turn the radio on in the morning and get something like the farm report. And the farm report's going to tell you, is it going to rain? If not, when is it going to rain? What's the longer term forecast? They're going to find out what the price of their, their crop is, what's the price of milk, what's the price of soybeans, on the Chicago Board of Trade, what's going on with animal or plant diseases. And they'll get it from the radio. Now a lot of people can get a lot of that information from the Internet as well. But in many parts of the world where we work, that information just doesn't exist. And so we're working with, we work with the communities to first of all help them understand what are all the things that can change. Like, well, obviously if it doesn't rain, that's a problem. What are the other things that can happen that you need to be aware of, like animal or plant diseases? And we help them first understand what are the risks that they face as farmers. And then we work with them and governments and other people to begin getting that information to them in a way that they can use it. A lot of them do not have smartphones. Some of them have the old flip phones or feature phones. We send them text messages. But we're also going back to using radio A lot because while not everybody yet has a smartphone, everybody's got access to radio and we're beginning to use radio a lot to get them that kind of information so that they can know, hey, should I harvest today or is it going to rain? Is it going to be too windy? Is it going to be, is it going to have, are we going to have enough wind if I want wind when I'm harvesting and the like. So that's, that's what we do. We get them the information they need to manage their farm, to manage the risks, to manage what's, what's coming at them. Like you mentioned, animal or plant diseases they have to worry about.

Interesting. So at this point they've got, they know how to turn over their soil, build up their forest. Emergency and situational awareness. What about water, by the way? Do you guys do any work on, on, on, you know, building water sheds or figuring out a, you know. And by the way, for those of you listening in a watershed is just an area of land where all the water that falls in it and drains off goes to like a common outlet that can be used for, for watering crops, for example. But what are you guys doing as far as water is concerned?

Well, a couple of things like I mentioned, water is actually at the heart of everything we're doing on the natural resource management. It's either water in the, so coming off the hills, but we also work on irrigation issues. And so we've helped a number of places, community that may have a year round stream to be able to create a little like a dam that can then channel that water into irrigation canals so that they can use that for irrigation. We're helping people in dry communities dig farm ponds, or sometimes we call them water pans so that they can capture the water and use it, channel the water that's going past their farm into these ponds and then use it in the dry season to grow high value crops like tomatoes or onions when nobody else has got water because it's not raining. We work with others to use simple pumps to move water, you know, two or three yards or two or three meters up from shallow wells and onto their farms. There are a whole bunch of things that we're doing in that regard, Ben. So not only the management of the water in the soil or the management of the water in the hills and the watersheds, but also how to use water, running water when you've got it, or live water when you've got it, available either in a pond or in a stream or a canal, or when you need to go find it some other way.

I love it. So what's happening as a result of this? What have you actually seen occurring in the community of any examples or things you've personally witnessed when you've been over there?

I can tell you, Ben, when people start moving forward and embracing the Thrive program, we see incomes absolutely exploding. We see people going from living on less than a dollar a day to, you know, five or ten dollars a day income. We see them feeding their kids more and better food and children, women and children's health getting better. We see kids going to school. We see people tearing down those mud and stick houses with the thatched roof and building brick houses with metal roofs where there's not nearly as much disease. We see them buying solar lanterns and having light all the time. We see them. Buying better stoves, improved stoves so that they can cook better. We see them embracing life. We see all kinds of transformation happen. It's really, really exciting to see.

Amazing. So when you're going into these farms after you've made all these differences and they're able to build their houses that are made of brook with a metal roof instead of mud and sticks and straw and reinvest in their business and cover bills for health care, when you're going into the community, are there other things that this economic empowerment program does in addition to are you guys doing anything on work with, for example, health care or education or any other aspects that go beyond farming?

Oh, that's when the rest of World Vision comes to play too. So World Vision does all kinds of work. And so I have got colleagues on health issues. And World Vision then is able to really accelerate the improvements in health. One of the biggest drivers of poor health is often nutrition, but it's not the only one. And so with more income in the family and with more income in the community, they're very easily able to make big strides on healthcare. And that's where World Vision's health and nutrition focus, which is largely focused on maternal and child health. We focus on the first thousand days of life because we want. Because that's the most, most critical time for children is that first thousand days, including the nine months when they're in their mother's body. It's up until the age of about two, two and a half. That's the most critical phase. If they get enough food, they won't be stunted. If they don't get enough food, their bodies and their minds are stunted. If their moms don't get the right nutrition, then that that's a critical issue. So that's one. Another big thing that we work on as well is access to clean water. World Vision, most people don't know this. World Vision is actually the biggest NGO in the world providing clean water. We get clean water to somebody every 10 seconds. It's grown that big. And we're actively working to end the world's water crisis. On education, the big focus is on how to make sure that once kids are in school, that the schooling is delivering high quality results. So these are all things that World Vision does in the rest of its programming. And so Thrive becomes one of these enablers for the rest of the transformation to go on. We worry mostly about the economic transformation and the mindset transformation that needs to take place. And then all these other things can accelerate the development in the communities and help them move definitively out of not only the economics of poverty, but into what we would call the fullness of life.

Wow, you guys are doing so much. I like that it's kind of like this comprehensive approach because like I mentioned, I have been basically contributing to World Vision for the past several years since I read Rich's books and you know, supporting this little girl, Mayhadinat, I believe how you pronounce her name, although I always struggle with it in Ethiopia and then also contributing to the water and the food that you guys send around the world. But I love this concept. And again, like for me, I'm not a big fan of handouts, right? Like I'm that guy when I pull up next to the stoplight and the person with the cardboard sign is asking for, you know, whatever, money for food or money for who knows what else, beer that I would rather teach them how to get a job. I would rather ask them if they want to come over to my house and help out in the garden. I remember when I was growing up, there was this guy named, we called him Bill Bill that my parents had hired. He was just like this homeless guy who came asking for money. They put him to work around the house and just taught him how to, to start a job. And then the neighbors hired him and soon he became like the handyman of the local community and had like a full time job and was able to buy a house, an apartment. And like that's the kind of approach that I like, is not just giving somebody a handout but actually teaching them how to take care of themselves. And I really like that you guys are doing this from a full on generational standpoint. I mean, not just teaching the farmers but then taking care of their children so their children are then able to farm. And it's, I mean it's, it's such a cool model. So that's, that's one of the reasons that I really wanted to not only get you on the show, Chris, but also tell those you listening in that, you know, this is something that I want to do more than just support myself. I want to give you the ability to support it as well by basically taking part of the proceeds of sales. Like when you come to my company for fitness gear or supplements or any of the other things you can find on our new website@getkeon.com basically, rather than taking all that money and putting it into employees bank accounts and into my bank account or into reinvesting it in the business, I want to freaking make the world a better place. And so this Thrive economic empowerment program that you just learned about and that'll put a whole bunch more information about in the show notes over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com WorldVision is a great way to do that. And Chris, I wanted to also ask you, like, let's say people want to go above and beyond just like taking a portion of the proceeds of things they buy from my company going to support this program. And instead they want to, they want to give more. You know, people want to, let's say, have some kind of a charity terrible donation or they've got a check they want to write to help with the program. What's the best way to get involved? I guess.

Well, Ben, get involved on. We can go to the website if somebody wants to send a check to World Vision. They could make it out to World Vision and then in the memo line write thrive. But I'd encourage them to support what you're doing. I think it's great. And Ben, I want to get you to Africa to come see the work too.

How would that work? Because not just for me, but if anybody else listening in wanted to go to Africa to see it.

Ben, I think you and I could organize a special trip that would take fitness fanatics and go to Africa to see the world. Maybe do a little biking or some hiking around Kilimanjaro. Maybe we do a climb, Kilimanjaro and something like that.

So dude, I would love to put something like that together. Actually, you know what, if you're listening in because Chris and I haven't talked about this much, but I'm totally game. You know, we're recording this, this particular episode in 2017. Chris, not often people listen to things for 10 years after they come out. So this may have already occurred if you're listening to this recording long after it's come out. But nonetheless, leave a comment over@bengreenfieldfitness.com WorldVision if you would be interested in doing something like that. And Chris, what I'm thinking is, you know, 2000, maybe. Maybe like, you know, fall, winter of 2018. When's a good time of year to go over there? Or does it matter?

Well, you can if you don't mind climbing in the snow anytime works.

We've got a bunch of people who follow this guy named Wim Hof who climbs Mount Kilimanjaro barefoot. So I'll bet a lot of them could. Could handle it just fine barefoot in shorts with no shirt.

Okay, well, I'll take my shirt.

Well, what I'll do is I'll talk to you, you know, after we. After we finish our recording today and everything. I would love to put something like that together, frankly. I'd love to take my little boys. You know, they'd be 10 years old at that time, because I think this is something that would be amazing for a child get involved with, or at least a young man or young woman to get involved with to be able to kind of see the impact they could make in a community. I wish my parents had done that with me, frankly. Granted, they did do a good job having me do meals and wheels delivery on the weekends and volunteer at the fair to push people around in the wheelchair, help out this homeless guy that I talked about. But I also love the idea of seeing the international scene, right. And how things happen on the international scene. And man, I would love to make it over there. So let's plan on putting something together. And again, for those of you listening in, if you want to be a part of this, just as soon as this podcast comes out, go leave a comment@BenGreenfieldFitness.com WorldVision say, Heck yeah, Ben, I'd be into to join up with, like a fitness group going over to Africa to help and to see in a little bit more of a boots on the ground way what's going on and how this Thrive Economic Empowerment program is actually working.

I want to highlight for you how financial donations can make a huge impact. Like, you now know my company Kion, donates to this Thrive Economic Empowerment Program. And I would encourage you to also donate to the Thrive Economic Empowerment Program.

Because I truly, truly believe that while interacting with your local community is really important, volunteering in your local Community is really important. I think that if each one of us were able to make a small dent in the worldwide scene as well in the global scene, that we're able to make an even bigger change even faster in the world. And hey, let's face it, you're listening to a podcast. You do better living through science. You've got access to resources. You live a pretty amazing life. Life, most likely, if you're listening in. And sometimes it's really nice to just step outside of taking care of your own body and brain, like I mentioned earlier, and think about giving back a.

Little bit to others.

So, Chris, thanks for coming on the show and sharing all this stuff with us, man. I just love what you're doing and I'm so glad I was able to hook up with World Vision.

Absolutely. Ben, it's been a pleasure. Look forward to buying some of this stuff off the website and look forward to getting you to Africa, showing it to you person.

Then the only thing I would recommend, dude, is start hanging out a lot outside in your in your bare feet and your board shorts because we're gonna go climb Mount Kilimanjaro half naked. I'm gonna hold you to it. I'm pretty sure you agree to do it. All right, cool folks. Again, all the resources for today's show are at BenGreenfield Fitness.comWorldVision.

Now if you want a couple of good books to go along with today's show, the two that you need to read must read books. My children are even reading these books right now. One's called Hole in the Gospel. The other one's called Unfinished Business. So read whole in the Gospel, read Unfinished Business. Add those to your reading list for sure because they, they will really amp up your understanding of and you your awareness of the importance of us being there for people in the world who need love that they're not getting and who need the care and the support and the empowerment you're going to learn about in today's show.

So thanks for listening in and have an amazing week.

You've been listening to the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast. Go to ben green greenfieldfitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness and performance advice.