How To Become A Billionaire, The Brilliance Of "The Flywheel", The Future Of Self-Quantification & Anti-Aging & Much More With Naveen Jain.

On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast.

If you're going to live on the moon, how are you going to grow the food on the moon? That is how people ask. And I say that's a dumb question because the right question to ask is why do we eat food? The difference between the people engineers and the people who are operator. Forget how. Just focus on does this need to happen? Does this make sense?

I always for a long time thought that kind of stuff was just like silly. Now I've realized that that's really what legacies are built health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show. Well, well, well. Hello. Hello. I'm talking White Galma Fudd. So I've been up since 4am hunting, not hunting wabbits. I've been hunting deer with my twin boys. I'm taking them out on their first deer hunt this year and thus I'm a little loopy. So I apologize not only for being loopy but also for having just lost all of my plant based audience. I apologize. Yes, we are hunting venison to eat this fall. Make some amazing stews and steaks and everything else. And today's podcast episode is a fun one. It is with my friend Nave Jane and we had a wonderful discussion. He's been on podcast before. He flew out to my house to record this one and we went into a whole bunch of little corners and rabbit holes, so to speak. Check, check, 1, 2, 3. Mic check, 1, 2, 3.

Check, check, 1, 2', 3. Mic check, 1, two, three.

Sound amazing. Naveen, you sound absolutely amazing. How can you not sound amazing? Should we just give, give the audience right now our whole audio check. We're just gonna let you guys start listening now. So if we do anything super embarrassing. This is, this is the pre show recording where we're checking our audio levels. Can you give me a check check one more time, Naveen?

Well, the brother. The way it works is I just love talking.

So here's what's going to happen. I was going to wind you up to let you go, baby.

No, you're going to just have. We're going to have fun together. We're going to talk about life and universe and everything else in between.

That's right. Well we just got done talking for like an hour about that. We just went on a long walk, you guys and we talked about the nature of the universe. We talked about absolute versus relative morality. We talked about vaccinations. We talked about God. We talked about all of the things that we won't be talking about. We can't talk about the podcast because we live in an era of censorship. We have to be so careful now. But anyways, Naveen, you came out here to my house. You flew on your jet out here and landed at the airstrip. It's like 10 minutes from my home, which of course is super convenient. And it's pretty been like two years since I've interviewed you and we have so many things to catch up on and talk about because for those of you who didn't hear my initial interview with Naveen, this guy is just chock full of an amazing amount of information and he's super, super knowledgeable. He is a billionaire. He's the author of the book Moon. Is it Moon Shots or Moonshot Shots? Name of your book. Moon Sh. And as a matter of fact, I call him the Moonshot Man. So everything we talk about today is going to be in the show notes@bengreenfieldfitness.com moonshotman and you guys, really, if you want to hear Naveen's whole backstory, go listen to my first episode with him, which is called Age Reversing via the Gut, the ultimate anti anxiety pill, customized probiotics and more with billionaire entrepreneur and founder of Naveen Jain. So you guys gotta go back and hear that episode because I went to your home turf, Naveen. I went to Seattle and we recorded a mansion out in the lake out there, which is just beautiful. But now that you've come out here to the Greenfield compound on the east side of the state, on the redneck side of the state, what kind of takeaways have you gotten so far from Spokane or from being here?

So first of all, I actually wanted to thank you and I think I have obviously met you many, many times in different settings and obviously just love your outlook on life. And, and I think to me the biggest takeaway I would say would be the way you live with your family. And I think I'm just so impressed, you know, with your wife and your twin kids. I mean, just unbelievably well behaved kids. What a loving family you have.

Thanks man.

And I wish now, now I thought.

You were gonna say me having you strip off all your clothes and stand sandwiched in between two giant red light this panels or this morning with a laser light attached to your head while I made you sip cayenne pepper, chaga and cacao out of a mug.

Yeah. So having said that, let's continue. The thing that really to me was really just Amazing. You, as a D, obviously are a role model from millions of people out there who see you this, an absolute fit guy, knowledgeable, know all about fitness. Right. And I see you as this amazing dad playing the song for your kid before they went to sleep. And I wish I, I mean, I did record that, and I wish you would play that for the audience. And if we could do that.

Did you record that?

I sure did.

Where'd you put on Instagram or you.

Said I would not.

I mean, send them. I'll put it in the show notes for people.

I would love for people to see that literally who you really are, a loving dad, a loving husband, and what you essentially as a family you have created. And you love for nature and your love for God. I mean, you know, to me, the, you know, all the things I can tell you about how brilliant you are and how great businessman you are and how much you care about people getting fit and stuff, all that goes without saying. But the side of you that really surprised me here was that how caring family you have.

Well, I'm neither brilliant nor a good businessman, but what I do know how to do is surround myself with amazing people who make me look good or help me out a lot. But I can tell you from a parenting standpoint, probably the biggest light bulb moment for me, or one of the big light bulb moments for me was when I realized that I'm not raising my children, I'm raising my grandchildren. Meaning that everything from playing music at night before we go to bed, to whether or not you have your cell phone out at the dinner table or whether you're fully present and engaged in conversation, to the structuring of the week so that the children have something to rely on. And they know that Sundays are the special day where we go on a hike and we sing songs before dinner, and Wednesdays are the night where we might have a little dance party before dinner. All of these are traditions that will go on generations to come. And you can either build good traditions in your home that make your children feel like they're in a trusting and safe environment, and that also give children, because it's really important for kids to have tradition and something to rely upon consistently. That makes a child feel very safe and it gives them a very good childhood. But those are the same kind of things that they're going to go on and do with their children and their children's children will go on and do that with their children. And so it's very interesting because every decision that you make when you're raising a child or the way with which you spend time with your child, how present you are, how unpresent you are, what activities you choose to engage in, what kind of traditions you build in the home. These go on, if you think about it, potentially for thousands of years.

But here's the thing, Ben. I saw you three years ago, you were a different man. And I tell you, in three years, you're not only that outlook on family had changed, but the fact is you're changing the tradition. You obviously couldn't have grown up like that because I didn't see you like that. So you change. So you're starting a new tradition than what you grandfather or father did, Right?

Exactly. And I don't know about you, but I didn't even grow up with that much tradition in my house.

That's my point.

Even Christmas, it was like, well, you know, a week before Christmas. What should we have for dinner on Christmas? You know, whereas at our house, like, we just know, like, you know, you have the Christmas turkey and all the staple foods and the kids are doing the little chocolates for, for Advent, you know, for 20 plus days leading into Christmas. And there's all these. And that's thanks to my wife. My wife's family was very much based around tradition. And this is the month that we go to the coast and get the little house on the coast. And this is what we do for Thanksgiving and for Easter and for Christmas. And I always, for a long time thought that kind of stuff was just like silly and old school. And now I've realized that that's really what legacies are built on, is traditional. And it's also something that children just find so meaningful.

So, Ben, so you're starting a new tradition for your family. So going forward, you are going to be that grandfather who started these traditions. Right. So they're going to go back and look at my great, great grandfather started this. Yeah, yeah.

I mean that. And really a big part of that, you know. And I know that you and I today, we're going to talk a little bit about, like, the science of aging and longevity, because you've got a real love for science, which I absolutely love. You were commenting on our long walk this morning how you're not a biologist. You're not like, that's not your formal training. Right. You're engineering and programming. But what I really love. And we'll also tackle this, how you learn new things. But I love that you've really dug into the science and you've turned yourself into a real Expert on things like biology and anti aging and longevity. And one of the things we were talking about at the dinner table last night was this idea of our elders and their role in society and how can we. It almost seems paradoxical. And I realize we're going to flirt with the board borders of controversy talking about this.

No, we not.

But it's so odd that we live in a society in which elders aren't given much of a matriarchal or a patriarchal role. They're not placed in a position where they are put on a pedestal of being the wise storytellers who we rely upon to advise the younger generations and to pass on the wisdom so that the younger generations don't make the same mistakes as their elders. And we instead relegate our elders to hospice nursing home and put them in positions more of shame than of honor. Rarely do we have our parents or our grandparents come and live with us in their old age. We instead find a place to hide them away. And then something like the COVID pandemic strikes, and we all of a sudden start saying, oh, we gotta save the elders. We need to, you know, everyone, you know, put your masks on. And we don't want the old people to die. But I find it almost a little bit hypocritical that we say that. And yet in our actions outside of something like a pandemic, it seem that we don't really respect our elders as much.

Well, so that's not a controversial subject to me. I mean, I'm not going to talk about COVID for a second here, but, you know, to me, it is really important that the wisdom that we learn, the wisdom that our parents and grandparents have, if we can't give those wisdom to our grandchildren or their grandchildren, then we have really lost so much wisdom. When, you know, you and I grow up, we don't lose everything we have learned. I mean, we dedicated our lives to learning. I mean, we are intellectually curious human beings. And we all. I mean, the last 10 years, we learned. Think about the next 50 or 70 or 100 years, how much we're going to learn. And if all that gets simply put into some hospice or some nursing care without passing that on, knowledge, the values and the things that we care about, how we should look at that world. To me, that's one thing that I find very fascinating is in. In eastern culture, you would be outcasted. If somebody could find someone knew that your parents are actually in not living with you, you in fact have, you know, moved them out to A nursing care. The society will outcast you. They say, we don't want you to be around my son. We don't want you to be around anyone know someone, that guy left his parents in a nursing care, what kind of a son he is. We don't want that kind of influence in any family. Right? That is to me is really the society we should live in. We talk about taking care of each other. If we can't even take care of someone who dedicated their life to making you grow, to make you become who you are. And I don't care what kind of childhood you had, someone cleaned your poop. Someone dedicated their life, Someone had sleepless.

Nights like my parents changed my diaper for so long. I'm willing to give my parents a bath and change their diaper. And that's the way that it should be. And we now find that we find that inconvenient. And we find that to be something that because much of society doesn't do that anymore is strange or awkward and it shouldn't be. And I think my interview with her, her will possibly have come out prior to this interview. But I was speaking with Marissa Peer yesterday who wrote the book you can be younger. It's about the biology of belief and thinking yourself into youth. And we were talking about the grandmother hypothesis. And it's very interesting because in a post menopausal state, women actually do begin to show signs of aging very quickly. And it's based on this evolutionary or ancestral concept that once you can't make babies anymore, maybe nature doesn't want you to stick around. And yet we see in these societies where mothers and grandmothers are given a role of being the caretakers and the storytellers and the people who passed on wisdom to future generations, you see that post menopausal women live much longer than in societies where they aren't given this matriarchal role. And so there is a little bit to be said for even the longevity and the anti aging component of this is the quality of life. And the purpose in life that the elder generation is given influences how long they're going to live just as much as perhaps filling them chock full of NAD and sirtuins and stem cell injections. Its purpose is a big problem.

We're going to talk about all the sertuents and NAD and all that good stuff in a second here. But to me it is not just about the grandmother and menopausal women. It is about giving the love. If you can give that love to your children, your Family and you know, to be an and to fellow humans. My point is we get so caught up in our world that we forget we live in this ecosystem, in this bigger ecosystem. We all are connected as you were talking about. We are literally. I mean we look like a solid person, like human beings, but we are really just these waves, right? I mean at the end of the day we are made of atoms and you go down the things and you down to quarks and basically we are just waves. And everyone in this world world is connected through these waves. We are no longer are separate. What is happening to your body when I'm in proximity of you? It affects me. What affects me. So my point is this love that we have to start to create in a. Whether we are living in any place, we got to share that love. This is one of the things that's in abundance, right? It's not like if I give it to you, I don't have left for someone else.

Right, right, right, exactly. Yeah. The love bucket is a never ending bucket. And sometimes we do hold back too much on that and you know, there's so many places that we could go in terms of the things that I want to talk about. But one of the first questions, as odd as this might seem because it just really stood out to me, I just realized too that I've actually interviewed you twice. I have not interviewed you once in my introduction, I mentioned once. But I've actually interviewed Naveen twice. And so we'll include other interview because I recall now that that I interviewed you at the WeWork space out there in Seattle as well for a second interview.

And you saw my legs? You saw my legs there.

Yeah, we talked about metabolites and some of these upcoming blood tests. You're wearing your shorts and it was a video podcast. I think we were concerned about the angle of the camera ensuring that your balls weren't showing up on the video. I think we were able to sort that. But you know, you talked about your method of gathering knowledge and again, this is something I respect about you is you've been able to turn yourself into an expert on topics that you really want to dive into. And you specifically as a businessman have been able to turn that expertise into some very successful business ventures. But you talked about how you'll follow certain people on Twitter when you want to learn about something. Like you'll create a Twitter feed full of all the leading experts in that.

Field and science journals.

And then the other thing, and you even talked about this a lot in my previous interviews. With you. You'll also use science journals to just turn yourself into an expert on information. I want to get into just a couple of things regarding that. A. When it comes to Twitter, is there anybody you're following right now or any particular feeds that you've aggregated that you're really just tuned into right now as far as people that you're finding really intriguing or topics that are trending that you're just absolutely intrigued with right now?

So, you know, to me, at this point in life, you know, I take the parts of my life and I dedicate to just a particular subject where I just get so deep into it. Today, if you ask me, I'm all over health. And the reason is I look at the stuff and saying, if I'm going to dedicate 5, 10 years of my life to something, can I fundamentally change the trajectory of how humanity is going to live? Can we actually get rid of chronic diseases? And you and I talked about that. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that we as humans should develop any chronic disease. We are not born with them, they are not genetic diseases. Right? So when people focus so much on genes, it to me really surprises me because your genes don't change. When you develop, you know, gain £200, your DNA is exactly the same. That was before you gained 200 pounds, right?

It depends. Depends how much access you have to your own home crispr kit, whether or not your genes are going to change.

In the second year.

For the most part.

For the most part, I mean, know. And we'll come back to this crispr part just as well in a second here. But let's assume the same. Human beings, when they get £200, they get diabetes, they get depression, they get autoimmune diseases and pick any of these chronic diseases, genes don't change. That means fundamentally your genes are not responsible for what really happens. It is the expression of those genes that causes you to.

You're just talking basic epigenetics.

So, yeah, basic epigenetics mean post epigenetics, what things are expressed. And the way I could express to people is like, you know, simply your thought is your genes, right? You can think all the bad thoughts you have. You haven't committed any crime unless you start to express those thoughts, right? That means you may have all kinds of bad thoughts, like bad genes, but if they're not being expressed and you can figure out a mechanism so that they don't express through lifestyle and changes. And I saw you, I mean, all the, the nutrients and the superfoods I ate for breakfast this morning, right, the tea that I drank, the smoothie that you made for me, all those things that I did, fundamentally what are they doing? They're not changing my genes, they're fundamentally changing my gene expression. To me, what really fascinated me, Ben, in this whole topic was can we digitize the human body? And to me, the way I look at this stuff and say we at the end of the day, our body that you know, our organs, our brain doesn't have eyes and ears, the only way it knows what is going on is through these chemicals signals that it gets. And those chemical signals we can control. So what if, and that's how I start. So by the notice the word I use, what if I didn't say how yet. And that to me is the key. When you start anything in life, you just don't worry about how you start to focus on what if that was possible. What if you could actually understand every biochemical activities in your body. And now you say, okay, I got that, let's assume that is possible then. What other biochemical things you can add or delete through nutrition that would change the biochemical activities to be what you want and get rid of the things you don't want. And now at that level, everyone said that actually if that could be done, that'll be pretty cool. Right now the fact is this morning we probably spent and last night hours talking about how when you why are you putting the aswaganda here? Why are you putting this? And you're explaining and say this is going to do this, this is going to do that.

Why we were able to have pizza and cheesecake last night for dinner and actually have it be amazing, superfood based pizza.

My part, the cheesecake was not the cheesecake that people think of. The cheesecake was not made from cheese.

It was raw vegan cashew macadamia nut, lemon blueberry cheesecake. And the pizza that we had was Jess's fermented sourdough with what did we have on it? We had tomatoes and artichoke hearts and the vegan cheese. Yeah, well, we had to do everything. Well, you know, when you were on your way, I said, well, do you and Anu have any dietary restrictions? You said nothing that moves or lives. And so yeah, we normally want to have guests over, we'll grill some rib eyes and, or have some chicken or something.

You and I are so unlike each other.

Kale salad and it was wonderful. As a matter of fact, my sleep was really good last night. I was commenting this morning Because I probably had about three to four times the number of carbohydrates I'd normally consume at night. And of course, even though for me metabolically long term, I think that I would probably have too much glucose fluctuation from that short term, I think I crushed nine hours of sleep last night because I had so much serotonin from all those. Well, the serotonin gets converted into melatonin. So you know, back to what you were getting at though, of course, you know, we could have ordered Domino's pizza and we could have had Cheesecake Factory cheesecake. And the protein expression that is derived from that based on the way that the genes that we are equipped from are actually being expressed into proteins in the body is gonna change based on that meal. And so what I had asked you earlier was what you're excited about or what topics thatthat you're looking at. You start talking about health and then this whole idea of genetic expression. So when it comes to genetic expression and specifically how it might relate to something like anti aging or longevity, what is it exactly that you're getting at?

So basically what I was saying was that today everything is fundamentally based on faith. That or somebody did in a study for these 20 people and something happened and they say, oh, it worked. You are banned. You are not that person who they did a study on. Just because it worked on someone else doesn't mean it's going to work on you because your body is very different from the person that they tested on. And everything today we do, we actually take it on faith. We just, we essentially, if I may say so, join the church of that nutrient. Right, I joined the church that NAD is going to do the anti aging. You have no idea. You could take Nad for 10 years.

Well, I mean, but, but we're living in error self quantification. Like I can do testing and actually know something now.

So that's my point is most people don't. And to me that was the key for me was when we do something, can we measure you? Absolutely. Digitally, right? So what if we could measure your cellular senescence? Right. We could measure your cellular health. What if we could not just measure your mitochondrial health? We can look at mitochondrial biogenesis, we can look at glycosis pathways, you can look at pyrotes, you can look at electronic chain, you can look at your Krebs cycle. Now you're literally looking down everything and you say, here are where your body is and now I'm going to give these nutrients based on what we know today and then we see what happens. And by the way, there's a good chance 60% of the things might just work because we knew. And other 40% we say, wow, that didn't work for Ben. Now guess what, we're going to tweak it and learn and we're going to make it just work for you, not for John, but for Ben. And that was never ever possible because that personalization and precision would never be possible. Because now you were thinking about, now I need a doctor. Hundreds of tens of thousands of dollars of tests, these pieces of nutrition and then measure and then say, oh, that would have been out of reach. And what is really.

Well, that is something that a lot of people do, but it's not super scalable, you know, but what you're describing, you know that that's what I've personally done for like you six years. I do my urine test, my blood test, my stool test.

You also got a million dollar worth of stuff sitting in the basement here. My point is not everyone can do that or afford it. And what I was trying to say was this is the first time in the human history where the technology is now becoming easily accessible and affordable to everyone. And that is what fascinated me. Before I started Wyoming, I kept thinking, why me and why not? I mean those are the two questions you have to ask anytime you start something. Why now? What is it that exists today that didn't exist five years ago? Right. That means what is this going to exist in five years that doesn't exist today that I want to take advantage of. So that's why now. And when you start to see the confluence of now, the cost of digitizing the human body, which is cost of sequence sequencing, has come down significantly. So you're not talking tens of thousands of dollars, you're talking about tens of dollars, right? Cost of analyzing these petabytes of data, this massive data that's coming out of the sequencing you requires massive computing power. You couldn't use a supercomputer to do that. Now you can fire thousand cores on AWS and boom, you can compute it. Artificial intelligence to be able to understand the meaning of all that, it's possible today. Couldn't have been 10 years ago. So you say why now, right? And then you say why me? And that is really interesting is that anytime you start a business, you have to ask yourself couple of questions. One of them is what is it that I believe that most people disagree? And in other words, what question that I am asking that is different from what everyone else has been asking because as an entrepreneur, it's not my job necessarily to have the right answer. Am I asking the right question? Because point is, what problem are you trying to solve? That's the main thing. Then you say, how do you solve that? But if you're asking the wrong question, that means if you're fundamentally solving the wrong problem, it doesn't matter who helps you solve it. You're still solving the wrong problem. And that is the key. So when I started healthcare and saying what I believe in is what matters is going to be what is going on inside the body. Body, not what is your DNA, what organisms are in your gut, who is doing it? Because those are all the names that we as humans gave. It didn't matter. So my thought process was, what if we can understand the biochemical activities? What if we can understand everything that's going on? And what if you can take the food or supplements or nutrients as a way to modulate that? And that is, you know, it took me about four, five years after that, which I started biome. And you and I have talked about the whole thing about the gut. So I'm not going to focus on that. The reason for that was there is 40 trillion of these guys sitting in our body generating these chemicals that we completely ignore because we are focused on the human DNA and these 40 trillion organisms.

What you're referring right now is specifically the gut microbiome. And, well, I mean, to a certain extent, obviously there's also the skin microbiome and the oral microbiome. But you're talking specifically about the metabolites being produced by not the bacteria themselves, but what metabolites are those bacteria producing?

So micro basically is called micro poops. Right? So the microbiomes are pooping in your place and by the poops are actually signaling the human body. What to do? Right. So cells inside your gut lining, they don't know when to produce serotonin. So 90% of all serotonin is produced in your gut.

Right.

They don't know when to produce serotonin until they see the signal from the microbiome. So microbiome releases the metabolite signaling molecule. That literally tells epithelial cells start producing serotonin right now.

Right. And so to clarify, the serotonin is not produced by the bacteria. The serotonin is produced by your own epithelial cells, but they're waiting on the signaling from the bacteria that are present in your body. And if that signal is received correctly, then you produce serotonin, then that serotonin would then act via what we know about the gut brain axis to affect mood, affect sleep, etc.

That's right. So now imagine that. So now we were all used to focus on what organism is in my gut. It doesn't matter because that organism may not be sending the signal because you're not feeling it.

So the question is not what organism is in my gut, it's what is the organism in my gut doing? What is it producing? What is the metabolite?

And then you go into the other side of the wall. Now all that happens. My next question was how do we know what is changing inside the human body based on what just has happening in the gut? So literally, if you look at your body, there is a tube going through it. There is a gateway to the gut. We call that the mouth. The mouth is amazing to me. This is another thing you and I never talked about. Here's my surprise. There are more species, more types of microorganisms in your mouth than in the mouth gut. Nobody ever, I mean, I would have, I did not know really, the more types of microorganisms in your mouth than in the gut. The quantity is 100th. Less than 1% are in your mouth in terms of quantity. But the types.

Okay, so, so the, the count in the mouth is lower, but the diversity is higher.

Diversity substantially higher.

Interesting.

And, but they are. But in terms of total is less than 1%.

Right.

But here is very interesting thing you and I heard our mom. Stay, Dallas. Chew, chew, chew, chew your food. What was going on? That is literally where the first time the food starts to get metabolized.

Metabolized, Exposed to amylase. Well, you know, arguably also that that is giving a chance for cholecystokinin to be produced in the gut. So you have better satiety. We know that when you chew a lot, you get more of the parasympathetic activation. Yeah, there's, there's a variety of benefits, but yeah, that, that's where the digestion begins. And as a matter of fact, and I don't want to take you too far off track, but there was a reason this morning that I made your smoothie so thick that you ate it with a spoon. Because I found that anytime I'm drinking a smoothie or a superfood mix, I'm less satiated. And I feel the effects of that from an energetic standpoint, less than if I savor every bite. And it makes it super thick. You saw how long I had to run that blender for like three minutes. But then I spoon it with the spatula into the bowl. Then I put all the super foods on top of it. And you eat your smoothie with a spoon and your mouth goes to work. As you move that smoothie around through the mouth, the amylase is working.

It starts to send signals to the gut what is about to come down. So the whole body is prepared for that food. When you drink your stuff, body doesn't know. It's like boom, it's there, right?

When you drink, drink it. Or if you have a super nutritious food or meal that you would normally chew, if you simply chew inadequately. And I think that the whole chewing issue goes far beyond that. I think it's related to jaw strength. I think it's related to tooth crowding. We know that lack of chewing and eating in a rushed state, or drinking all of our foods, or even feeding our children super soft food for too long a period of time. There are just so many downstream issues from a symmetrical standpoint and from a metabolic standpoint.

And so I was. So my point I was trying to make was that. So you have to look at what is going on in your amount, right?

Okay. So oral biome, we have oral biomes. Lower count, higher diversity. And here's why is that important.

So the couple of things interesting to happen those microbiome, just like we heard of the term leaky gut, imagine leaky gum. What happens is now when your gums get weak because the bacteria, these parasites are eating away this gut, you know, the gum lining, just like they eat away the gut lining lining. Now they start to get to work because now they run our blood, right? They can now starting to look like a causing whole bunch of havoc. So now we have shown, some of the research is showing that even the things like Alzheimer may be actually caused by the periodontal disease. That actually the bacteria leaking through the blood, making the blood brain barrier permeable and going up to the brain periodontal inflammation, periodontal inflammation. And but here's what. So what happened causing the brain inflammation. And then our gilial cells, which is like immune system releasing the amyloid beta to trying to corral and clean up these organisms from there. So essentially they react to the infection. And when the system cannot clean them up, then they start to get tangled up, right? So now they're starting to believe that most of the neurodegenerative diseases are in fact infectious diseases. And there are two schools of thought. Either they're coming from the gut microbiome through the epithelial cell or they're going through the oral microbiome, going through the leaky gut.

Now this begs the question because we know that a leaky gut can be brought on by everything from excess stress to glyphosate exposure, to high consumption of things that might aggravate the gut like a large intake of plant based anti nutrients, et cetera. When it comes to the gums or the mouth or periodontitis or you know, leaky mouth, leaky gums, do we know what might actually cause an issue like that?

So same thing. So it is the opportunistic bacteria, just like in the gut. So ecosystem in general works well. Right now for example, what happens is when we are eating food and this, that, that food gets stuck in our between the gum line. Now these bacterias are eating that food and they start to make right. So the trick really is it is not about brushing that matters, it's about, about cleaning the mouth up. Right. So when you're eating the food, people used to, in olden days would take the root and chew the root. Guess what's doing that was doing the flossing for you, right?

Oh yeah, yeah. That, that, that's actually, I mean I know that your, your ancestors are of Indian origin and I actually.

My ancestors are same as your ancestors.

Yes. And, and, and most of my oral biome health practices are borrowed from Ayurveda. Meaning that when I wake I do coconut oil pulling and I actually make my own coconut oil pulling cubes. I didn't show you these in my refrigerator, but I use little molds. I'll melt down the coconut oil and I put peppermint and oregano and sometimes some rosemary or some cinnamon essential oils in with the melted coconut oil. Then I pour that into a mold and just like the little chocolate molds that you normally make chocolates with, put that in the freezer for about not.

The mold of the oil is a.

Mold that, like an actual mold that will shape it. And then I keep these in the refrigerator. I pop one in my mouth when I wake up and I swish it around my mouth for about 20 minutes. I have a copper tongue scraper up in my bathroom and I scrape my tongue from back to front. And then it's interesting because I have not adopted this practice. But the sticks or the twigs that come from trees like pear or apple or neem. Tree or neem, yes. These are used as almost, almost like flossing tools, you know. And, and I think that between brushing, coconut oil, pulling, tongue scraping and the occasional kind of Flossing with a stick or whatever else. You know, a lot of these are ayurvedic practices.

And water pick, dude, what is the. I mean, when you see coconut pulling, that's literally water pick, right?

Yeah, it is. Some people actually are on the other side of the fence and they say, well, coconut is antibacterial, so is oregano, so is peppermint. Therefore you're just nuking your entire biome in your mouth. But, but it really, you're not going to kill off a bunch of good bacteria. Most of these opportunistic gut. Yeah, they're going to take out the opportunistic pathogenic bacteria. You're not going to have a sterile mouth, you're going to have a well balanced mouth from a bacterial standpoint. And so what you're saying is that this periodontitis is basically going to affect signaling to such an extent where you're going to have increased risk of chronic disease with poor oral, oral hygiene.

In fact, the research that I sent you last night, I don't know if you probably got a chance to read it or not. It literally shows when you have the inflammation in your mouth, not only these bacteria end up going to the gut themselves causing inflammation, but here was surprising, was the inflammatory, the T cells, the TH17 cells themselves moved from the mouth all the way to the gut causing the inflammation. Right.

And that's significant because While we need TH17 cells as killer cells, as immune system, you know, soldiers, so to speak, they are going to call inflammation to any area in which they are concentrated. And so what you're saying is that in an area in which you have poor oral microbiome, you get TH17 movement into the digestive tract.

That's right. And so my point is now this. We, we have the gut brain axis, we have gut skin axis, we have the, you know, gut liver axis. You know, all the things we talked about, how do you get the non alco fatty liver disease? And now we have the mouth gut axis that is going through here. Right. So my point is our whole body is really is interconnected and we have all been looking at these isolated part. So that was the whole idea was what if we can actually look at the integrative approach. So we say, okay, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day. How do we start to understand what is going on and learn as we go along? And to learn something you have to create a foundation and then you build on that foundation. Right. So I, you know, four years ago you and I talked about, I Started this gut intelligence test to see what can we actually understand what is going on inside the gut. And it's great. Now we got that right. I want to now go to the next part which is how does it impact the human body, the human cells, the mitochondria? And we're going to talk about the anti aging here because it's really, really interesting things I've been learning. And so we launched and again, I'm not trying to talk about the promotion of anything, but to me the fundamental difference was we started this thing called health intelligence. And the idea was can we now understand how the human cells are connect, are interchanged or impacted by what is happening inside the gut? Right. And can we actually look at them at a cellular level? Right. Everyone has been talking about, you know, today you do a black test, blood test. You, what you're doing is really at a high level. You're looking at some of the minerals, you're looking at some of the vitamins, and you're looking at the, you know, things like, you know, LDL and hdl. And somehow the, you know, medical world has made us believe that when you have high LDL and low HDL and the ratio is bad, somehow you can have heart disease. And there's never been proven, by the way, there's never been shown that if you synthetically, synthetically not organize clinically, they.

They are, they need to be present in order, thank you, something like cardiovascular risk disease to be a factor. But, but they're not sufficient in and of themselves. However, those blood tests, you know, to, to the defense of, of allopathic medicine, for example. I think the reason the blood tests are relied upon so heavily is that they are scalable. You know, they, they, they are very scalable at this point and affordable to, to, you know, to, to run a lipid panel on someone.

And that's my point. So now what, what if you can do the same blood test and make it similar price point someday to be able to look at them at a cellular level. Right. I mean that's my whole idea right. Now today it may cost a hundred dollars, but guess what? Two years from now it'll be $50. Five years from now it'll be $10. Right. And someday it'll be a dollar. So to me, these things, eventually just like a cell phone, this price will come down. So even the fact it is $100 today, not $10,000 is already affordable to many people, not all people, but when it comes down to $10, it becomes affordable to billion people. When it comes down to a dollar, it becomes affordable to 5 billion people. Right. But the point here is that was my whole idea was can we do that? So we literally decided that can we do a finger prick blood and can we actually analyze them at that level? And now that is something we succeeded at. And I think you and I talked about you're going to be doing a test right on Monday, you're going to get the kit and you're.

So this one that you're talking about is called Health Intelligence. And what you're looking at then from a drop of blood are what are you looking at?

So we're basically looking at every single gene expression in your blood.

Okay, so you're returning back to what we were discussing earlier. The actual metabolites being produced or the actual proteins, all the pathways.

Well, no.

So it's a proteomics test.

No, no, no. It is a RNA test. RNA means a gene expression. But here's what happens happens. DNA gets converted into rna, rna. Now looking at what gene expression in the pathways are actually over expressed or under expressed, now you can see what amino acids, what peptides and polypeptides and literally these amino acids then go make the protein, right? But if you can look at them before they make protein, you know, all the enzymes now that are being produced. So based on that, now you can say, hey, am I going to be actually inducing ampk, right? That AMPK is going to, what is going to do is going to significantly increase the production of PGC1 Alpha. What is PGC1 Alpha is going to do? That's a master regulator for mitochondrial biogenesis. Now a lot of people take the stuff, PGC, that induces the PGC 1 alpha over thing and people thinking, oh, you know what's a great pgca1 alpha inducer is nad.

I was gonna say the hour and a half long fasted walk we went on this morning. That's a pretty good pga.

But exercise. Oh it is. Exercising is one of the great ones. And here's what exercising basically induces AMPK, that literally goes to PGC1 Alpha that actually does mitochondrial biogenesis.

The point is, and to an even greater extent, fasted exercise, because ketone bodies are generated by the switch.

So that's a slightly different path. That's called cellular stress. So when you fast, you put your cells under stress and when there is cellular stress, it induces the PGC1 alpha to say, hey, things are not going well, start producing more of that, right? And that's literally. So what happens is it starts to produce more ATP. So mitochondrial biology, which is why we.

Also see a lot of these, these xenohormetic compounds from everything like French roux, which is now more largely known as the pharmaceutical metformin, or when we look at berberine or many of these other plant based compounds, they are inducing a xenohormetic stress which, this sounds like a trendy catch all term, but it is true. These are almost like exercise in a bottle. You're literally consuming things that via PGC1 Alpha pathways actually activate mitochondrial biogenes. And I would in no way argue that you can chew on some berberine and get what you'd get out of a hard bike ride. But yet introducing a lot of these variables that would increase PGC1 Alpha is a generally smart strategy. And what you're saying is in a case like this blood test, you're measuring the RNA that is indicating whether or not DNA is being expressed, expressed into proteins that would cause this PG1 alpha activation.

But that's only one part of it. Then you need to decide is that actually good or bad? So for example, you're taking nmn, right? The nadp, NAD plus precursor in some. And you know, most people think it's anti aging, but it actually would harm you if you have inflammation, right?

That's what a lot of people don't realize about. Well, nad, nr, nmn, all of them, any of them in a state of.

Present cellular information and cellular senescence. Yes, you do not want. So my point is this is literally, I think now you are getting a.

Sense people, but close the loop on that because this is important people know I don't want to gloss over this. Cellular senescence is this state in which smaller number of senescent cells, especially in youth can be assist. They can assist with anabolism, their pro growth. But, but these so called zombie cells, these senescent cells as they accumulate with age can result in excess aging or increased risk of chronic disease and inflammation, massive inflammation and inflammation and, and arguably sometimes the chicken comes before the egg and inflammation causes cellular senescence and cellular senescence causes inflammation. But regardless if you have inflammation, present presence or a high amount of cellular senescence, consumption of nad nr, NMN can aggravate that cellular senescence. And so if you are consuming vegetable oils, if you're over training, if you're under sleeping, if you're on airplanes all the time and not mitigating exposure to non native emf, et cetera, and all you're doing is nad, NR or nmn, you're actually Increasing your risk of inflammation or cellular senescence. And this is actually why, and I think I was telling you this, Naveen, some of the smarter docs I know now who administer NAD or use that in their practice, they're also recommending or utilizing antiseinescent cell compounds along with that, particularly things like quercetin, which is very, very good when combined with nad, however, and oleopyrin, but it's quelicitin.

But you do not want that if you have high hydrogen sulfide production in your, your gut because it binds to sulfide and then you don't want to take that anyway with vitamin C. Right. So my point I'm trying to make is that all these complications, most people somehow want simple life. Oh, I just, just tell me to take NAD and my life will be good. Unfortunately, the human body is lot more complex and that's the reason you don't.

Open the the hood of a Ferrari and see two red buttons, one that says Go and one that says stop.

It probably does, but what do I.

Know, Cylinders, you got valves, you got injectors, you know, now with Teslas you have an entire, you know, series of chips like a motherboard. And so what you're saying then is that by testing multiple pathways and predicting multiple expressions of proteins, you would then be able to make more educated decisions about not only which supplements or nutrients or to take. Excuse me, or diets to consume, but also the amount or the quantity of said nutrients.

Yeah. For example, quercete. Go back to quercetin. Right. If you're taking a quercetin and you also end up taking glutathione. Right. What's happening is quercetin produces thiol and you take the glucophin. Now you can have a thiol toxicity. So point we try to do is to look at things like cellular senescence. We look at all the things that causing inflammatory activity and you have to know what, what is causing these cytokines or these immune system cells. Remember, I'm assuming everyone listening to this probably understand cytokines. Cytokines are really the immune system cells. Some of them are anti inflammatory, some of them are pro inflammatory. And you have to look at them, all these cytokines, what they are doing and then you need to know what pathways are activating the inflammation. So for example, I mean you and I intuitively know the inflammation may come because we have some infection, right. It may come from histamine pathway. And what's a histamine pathway? When you have some type of ascent, you know Allergies, Right? So food allergies or environment allergies. So now you need to know, is it coming from histamine pathway inflammation or the inflammation is coming from cellular stress, xenotoxic stress. So once you understand not just you have inflammation, what pathways are activated to cause that inflammation? Now you can be much more precise to say, ok, hey, you can still take NAD because the inflammation that is high is because of histamine pathways, but take that with antihistamine. Right? So my point is, otherwise you would never know. And that to me is really the key to the human body is understanding everything. So we now look at immune activation. So your immune system health, your mitochondrial health, your cellular health, cellular senescence. We are also looking at structure stress response, which is oxidative stress, xenotoxic stress, in every environmental stress to see what is actually going on. And based on that, now we can say you need to take resveratrol, but don't take berberine.

And this is primarily via blood analysis. But are you, would you then want to pair that with something like oral biome or gut biome? Because you're still missing, missing out on some of the patients.

But we don't, we pair them. So the health intelligence does two things right now. Your gut microbiome test and the blood test combines them together. And the next thing coming up is called whole body intelligence. That does saliva, stool and the blood. So we literally go from the top of the tube, bottom of the tube, other side of the tube, and we combine all the things together, right? And that's whole body intelligence. That's not long launched yet. So we started with gut intelligence, health intelligence, whole body intelligence. Right. And that is the whole idea is, can you do that? In that case, the world becomes not just personalized because the personalized has been a term that you and I know has been so misused, right? People say, oh, I'm doing a personalization based on what? Well, you're a man, you're a woman. Well, you're 50 plus. I'm 50 under, right? You're black, you're white, I mean, all type. Those are not, those are categorization. Those are not personalization. The personalization is when I actually look at the molecular level. And that to me, the reason we change the term is we call them precision. So it's called precision supplements, precision nutrients, precision. What. So we precisely look at what's going on. And now here was the next part. And this is still in the vision state. We have not launched yet. What if you can make those nutrients made to order for each individual after you analyze. I mean to me, I mean you have to agree despite any business or not, that would be awesome. Something you would want, wouldn't you?

Right? Well, you're talking about like custom delivery of the nutrients or the supplements based.

On the actual blood, based on the actual molecular platform. If you can make those capsules on demand, right? And that people said that's going to cost. You can't scale that. It's going to be very expensive. And what we figured out is what if we can use robotics, right? What if you can actually use AI and robotics robotics to actually deliver that? Because there's no reason the cost of making customs should be any more than making a cost of making categorized things. Right. And that to me was a brilliance of what I think how we look at life is. There's no reason that if you can buy that capsule for 10 cents, maybe it will cost 11 cents. But can't go farther than that because at the end of the day it's all robotics is a one time capital expense. So what if you have less assassin 500 ingredients sitting in my idea, a bins. 500 bins. Computer says you need 11 milligram of lycopene, you need 12 milligrams of butyrate, you need 13 milligram of that. And literally the powder gets weighed and comes down and it starts to go down into powder, gets shaken up and it starts to get put in the capsules and they put them in a sachet and deliver to you on that day. Why should that cost any more than somebody doing the same thing but making millions of the same. Same thing.

Yeah, right.

Point is, and that's really where I think the world is headed, is that our medicines, whether we take a statin or any, whether it's nutrients or it's medicine, is going to be made personalized for each individual.

What are your thoughts on supplementation versus whole food? Meaning, you know, lycopene, for example, from a tomato. And the reason I ask this is. And again, this will flirt with the borders of controversy.

Oh, I'm not going to.

One thing that people get concerned about with Bill Gates, for example, who of course is a very controversial subject right now because people are concerned that whatever he's trying to profit from his investment, who and vaccinated, all of that aside, I was having a conversation with somebody the other day and they're like, well, yeah, Bill just looks at everybody as basically like a computer. And how can you program them like a computer? You know, zeros and ones and you know, just basically, you know, if you can, if you can treat people like a computer, they're obviously fixable, they're hackable. And then you, you have the people who will instead say, no, you can't just treat a person like a computer and fill them full of zeros and ones and get a predictable logical response. Response. And so for you, when you're looking at, okay, well we're going to design like, you know, these 50 supplements at these exact milligram amounts based on this little drop of blood in the saliva and the stool that you gave and just like fix everything and eliminate chronic disease. How do you think of whole foods versus supplementation with that regards? Like why wouldn't you say just like change your diet, go out in the sunshine, you know, get outside barefoot, you know, have dinner with your family, that type of thing.

And answers, I didn't see that. I'm simply saying that by definition they call supplement. What's the meaning of supplement? They supplement, they don't. They are not alternative to food. That means you have to still eat the good natural food. In fact, in the health intelligence we tell you what foods you should eat and why, what foods you should avoid and why. And then we say here are the additional nutrients, nutrients and here's very interesting thing you're going to find. For example, strawberry may be in your complete avoid list. And we may still take the extract that is useful, the flavonoid, like fisetin, and we can actually give you the fisetin. The reason is because strawberry also has lot of histamine producing stuff.

That's a good point. You can come out from the other direction and say, yeah, the whole food is good. But also, you know, if you go with the whole food version, you're consuming something that your body technically isn't able to handle. So let's hack this. Let's take just the extract from that whole food that you might be able to actually handle and put that in. That's an interesting perspective.

So my point is sometime we would say eat the food and when we say, look, this food has a great compound, but it also for you is going to be also producing histamine. So let's just take a fisetin and give it to you and make the food on the avoid list, right? And sometimes the superfoods, the blueberry may also be on your, your supplement side. So remember, supplements are always supplement. Ideally, what I would love for people to do would be eat the right food, avoid the bad food. And take the supplements to essentially because what foods you have to eat 20 pounds of blueberries to get the same thing that you can get in a 12 milligram. It's concentrated. So my point is sometimes you supplement the nutrients on top of the food. But it's not what I would say alternative to the.

The full. Right, right. Well that's an interesting idea. I'm curious to see how it goes with the full rollout. When did, when did you guys actually start doing this?

So we did it last time.

So here's very interesting.

We launched this product month ago. And here's very interesting 3/4 of people who are going up by buying this whole product now. Yeah, it's mind boggling to me how we, how valid is resonating with people.

Yeah, it is interesting. I mean and it is smart from a business standpoint. You're actually explaining something to me yesterday because you know, we do have, we do have a lot of people listening in who I think, I think are probably also interested in just like you know, how you think about things from a business standpoint. And I think you, the way you described it was something like a flywheel. Like when you have a business technically the customer should be getting an improved experience each time. Can you. You'll do a better job explaining any.

Business business that you create. If your thousand customer is getting exactly the same product that your first customer got, you have not created a flywheel. And the second part of that concept is if someone is doing the thing your first time versus 10th time, if they're getting exactly the same value, then you have not done it. You're not created a flywheel. And the flywheel concept is every single person who is actually part of that ecosystem is making every single everyone after them better and everyone before them better. Because now the data that you're learning from is making the artificial intelligence better and better and better. And now even if a new company to come along and they may have a 10x better technology, but the fact is you learn from the million people already what is going to work and not going to work. The technology itself cannot solve the problem of learning.

Give an example of a flywheel concept in a business with perhaps a business as people might already be familiar with.

Very, very, very simple. So today when you look at the gym, you go to a gym, it doesn't matter you are the first customer or you're a thousandth customer, you're going to get the same treadmill, same thing, everything the same. Because they're not looking at to saying hey, Ben, we know what type of a person you are. We've done all the analysis and based on all the thousand people, here is what we want you to do. Here is what you should do, right? So unless you're collecting the data and analyzing the data, when someone comes along and so you literally, you fit here and this is what most likely to benefit and the second time, when you do the test a third time. Now we're going to continue personalizing for you, but we already know you're going to fit here.

Right? So. So if someone were running a gym based on the concept of a flywheel, when a member joins the gym, the they would get, for example, VO2 max test, a body fat test.

Let's assume 10 tests, right?

Wait, okay, so functional movement analysis, et cetera. They would have a program, preferably from a scalability standpoint, that's delivered via artificial intelligence or an analysis of those results. That program would then get printed out, it would get handed to them. And every month they would repeat this battery of tests. And every month the artificial intelligence would get better and better at recognizing, recognizing the exact direction that person is headed. So that that person, basically just from a pure business standpoint, is going to, for each month they're a member of that gym, get greater and greater amount of value delivered because that gym is learning more and more about their body and able to steer them with greater precision towards their goal. And what you're saying is that a successful business should always be stepping back and looking at this is hopefully helpful for any of you out there there who are running a business or who are trying to make your business more unique or more valuable to people. Is what you're looking at is how am I making this customer a better person by collecting data about them so that their experience can be tweaked and customized with each successive month or week.

And even the first time. So while you're saying is that, hey, that works for that person, but point is, having done millions people, I'm already ahead to know you going to be most likely here. Do we get you a better start and then make you better? Right, Right. So that is the key is that if you're selling something that's a product, right? And everyone, it doesn't matter, the first customer bought, they got the same bag of coffee. But now if I can figure out, based on your analysis and say your coffee could be coated before I send it to you with all the nutrients, I would spray those nutrients and coat that coffee bean flour for you. Because I know based on your health intelligence test all the nutrients you need. And now let's assume you're a coffee drinker. Can I quote my coffee with all the nutrients before I send it to you?

Right? Or I mean, you know, there are many directions you could take this. But, but let's say, you know, at Kion, for example, and we saw a lot of coffee and we've got energy bars. Even if someone were to do something like fill out a profile of mood state score each month, you know, quick 10 minute survey and we, and we see, oh, your energy levels were lower this month. You reported on your sleep being lower quality. But we also noted that you ordered double the amount of coffee. We've recognized that you're probably overstimulating yourself. Therefore we're going to recommend that you get L theanine and one of our adaptogenic blends or something like that this month too. Because we're noting perceptions that you consuming too caffeine, something like that. So you're, you're collecting information about the customer, then customizing their experience and collecting data about them that you can then go back and look at patterning on to be able to make a better decision for that.

And my point is, and making that AI so much better, it becomes such a great experience, they can't switch anymore because they just don't know why. But every time they get their coffee they say, oh my God, I just feel better.

It's yeah, right.

And they just don't know why. And, but you're constantly improving on it by, you know, coating it with different nutrients, doing the different things, adding things to it. And there's no reason you can create a custom coffee for them. Right? People somehow think the coffee beans are coffee beans. But what if coffee beans, what are the actual nutrients that you give them? Because it's just a delivery. So remember, these things are delivery mechanism. Bars are delivery mechanism. What if they're bar essentially you can incorporate all the nutrients that you're talking about into the bar itself and just think of a bar as a delivery mechanism.

Yeah, right. Yeah. And see folks, just so you know, because you know, I've talked to a lot of successful people, you know, just having the blessing of being able to run this podcast, talk to people a lot, a lot smarter, a lot more successful than me. I see this pattern over and over again outside the box thinking, right? And what you would refer to as moonshot thinking, you know, this, what if thinking this idea that you described, you know, why now? Why me? And this whole idea, you know, even Even you know, Tim, Tim Ferriss, I think the way that he does it is he sits down and kind of like paints out the worst case scenario of a decision like what could go wrong if I took this drastic decision list all the things that could go wrong and what you might do if those things went wrong. And this idea, thinking big, thinking outside your comfort zone or creating scenarios that might seem like silly what ifs. Like even as you're describing this to me right now Davine, I'm like well no, I can't take a fine single origin coffee from Guatemala and bastardize it by changing the ingredient profile or the roasting profile, the nutrient profile of it or pre grinding it and packaging it with this stuff because you'll decrease the shelf life. But yet it's a thought exercise that might lead me to a solution where I could say well now know I could still give people wonderful tasting organic, antioxidant rich coffee but then as they're in their shopping cart getting their coffee from Kion, I can say here are the other products that we're recommending to you that you bundle with your coffee. Right. So the coffee is the same but it's what they might be co ingesting with the coffee.

Oh by the way, to make it a customized experience for you, take all those supplements that you're talking about powder and say hey here's a coffee, when you brew, brew it, throw this in the coffee itself and brew it with that. Right, right. So my point is you can deliver.

I mean those are alluthero, rishi ashwagandha, you know those type of things.

Those are delivery mechanism and my again when you are looking at these concepts, don't focus on how. And that's really the difference between the people engineers and the people who are operator. Every time you give them a concept thinking so how am I going to do that? Well that's not going to work. That's not going to work. Forget how, just focus on does this need to happen? Does this make sense? Is this what you want to do? And then you figure out how to do that. Right. If you think the coffee beans really need to not be grounded, that's okay. Can you now have a powder? So you can essentially just say hey, sprinkle this in the coffee or pour this in the coffee or if you're brewing it, put this in there. Right. Whatever it is, those are all thousand different ways of delivering. If you're delivering water, can I change the cap? The cap has all the nutrients so when I open the cap it Delivers all the nutrients because you don't want to be mixing it because it might get, you know, different flavor.

Right? Yeah, it's interesting, actually. I had water once. This. This company sent me this brilliant water concept where you literally had like all of your multivitamins, vitamins and your nutrients, they were in powdered form in the cap of the water bottle. And you just depressed a button on the top of the water bottle and all of the minerals and the vitamins went pouring into the water bottle. Then he drank the water bottle. But stepping back, big picture, I just want you guys to know, this is how successful people think. This is how billionaires like Naveen think. You think outside the box. You don't limit yourself with the logistics of the scenario. You instead create the ideal scenario. And then after that, you figure out whether or not you can make it work or how to make it work. And again, like, I think you'll probably admit this, Naveen, you don't know how to do a lot of things yet. What I've noted that you do is you then create a team. Like, you then surround yourself with the people who, for all the logistics surrounding the what if? Can solve the logistics, right? Your job is to. Is to immerse yourself in the books, the research, follow the people on Twitter, Twitter and come up with the ideas that seem really weird or really outside the box. Then you find the people and you say, make this work. Or even is this possible? If it's remotely possible.

I never do that. I never ask is this possible? Because that shows that there is a possibility it may not work.

You say, make this possible.

Make it possible. How should we do that? So that's actually another concept I think you like. When you do something, the question you have to ask, ask is what problems will need to be solved for it to work? So let's assume someone says it can. It is not possible today. Got it? What problems will need to be solved for it to become possible? And then you say, oh, I can solve that problem this way, I can solve that problem this way, I can solve that problem this way now. Or this problem need to work on and solve that one, and then we are done, right? My point is that Little literally breaks it down and it's about going back to the things we were talking about asking the right question, right? And that's another thought of an entrepreneurship. And I don't know how many the people who are listening to it actually care about entrepreneurship, but in my mind, everyone is an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur is someone who solves a problem right? So that means even if you are working for a company, you are an entrepreneur. When you just don't think about the problem, you don't think about the solution, you actually go out and do it, Then you are an entrepreneur. So my point is not, not just about starting a company. It's about how you solve the problem. And it doesn't matter what you're doing in your personal life, there are problems every day. How do you solve them makes you an entrepreneur. To give an example, as you know, my other company other than Wyoming, that right now. And how do I only say wyom? It's not wyom. It is V. Right? Indians can't pronounce the word V as in Victor. Right? V, I, O M. Right. And I, I started the name of the company that I can't pronounce. Pronounce. Indians cannot pronounce the word we. I don't know how.

Yeah, you say we. Oh, huh. Yeah, I just realized that. Yeah, you created a company you can't pronounce.

Yeah, there you go.

Yeah.

But the reason is because we is life and omics is science of life. Right. That's why I did it. I love the name. Right. Somebody else can pronounce it. But coming back to it. Right. My other company is Moon Express. Right. And the reason I mentioned that is when we were saying we can go live on the moon, you know what the people said? If you're going to live on the moon, how are you going to grow the food on the moon? That is how people ask. And I said, that's a dumb question. Because the right question to ask is, why do we eat food? Because once you simply change this question, how to grow the food, the only solution is to grow the food. But if you ask the question, why do we eat food? You say, oh, that dumb. Okay. We eat food because we need energy and we eat food because we need nutrition. And we say, oh, energy. Plants get energy from photosynthesis. What if we could do that? Bacteria get energy from radiation. What if we could do that? What if you were talking about crispr, we have bacteria who grow on radioactive nuclear waste. They have figured out how to protect their DNA from the radiation and how to use radiation for energy. Now, if you take that genes from those bacteria use CRISPR to modify our own genes, could we thrive on just radiation? Honey, do you want to go out and get some radiation?

It sounds more fun to have a ribeye and maybe some, some lemon blueberry vegan cheesecake. But I get that idea. I get that idea. Why do we eat? And then you solve that problem. Yeah, it's, it's, it's super interesting. Now, one thing I did want to ask you about, about the moon, because I know you want to travel to the moon. Moon. In our last podcast, we talked about the rocks that you had harvested from the moon. I know that you find the moon intriguing, but a lot of people say, why are we spending all this money exploring space and going to the moon when we have this vast quantity of, for example, thought province in the ocean, right? Why wouldn't we go and explore this vast immeasurable quantity of depth that we've barely even tapped into on our own planet before we, you know, go burning carbon and, and sending people to the moon or exploring the moon?

Well, let me give you two separate answers to that. First is this idea of do this or do this, right? Is a mindset of scarcity that if I do this, I can't do that. So idea is yes, do this and do that, right? So that to me is a mindset saying, why do I have to limit to just doing this? Why can't I just do this and that, right? So that's first concept. Second, second is we as all humanity is living on a single spacecraft. We call that a spacecraft or planet Earth. What if our spacecraft gets damaged because we got hit by an asteroid? All 8 billion or 9 billion of us are going to get wiped out just like dinosaurs, right? So do you want to be a species that get completely wiped out? Right, because we didn't back up, we didn't go to the moon, we didn't go to the Mars, we didn't go to the Pluto, we didn't go go to a different galaxy altogether. So we could literally be out of this galaxy now somehow we have this idea this is the planet and we are somehow very unique. I mean, imagine our galaxies in our solar system is somewhere. The thing is our solar system in our galaxy sitting on the side. We are nowhere to be found in our own solar system. I mean, we're literally a pack of dust in our own solar system. System. Our solar system is a speck of dust in our galaxy. Our galaxy is a speck of dust in this universe. And our universe may be a speck of dust in this multiverse, right? So my point is there all these things out there and we are now took the holy species and saying this is the speck of dust. You can live. Because now and this speck of dust get wiped out. Everyone is gone. So thing that I find really fascinating is I hear people say, I am really worried about our planet. Really. Let me just tell you something. This planet would do just fine. Worry about the human species, right when the, when the asteroid hit the planet Earth, guess what happened? Asteroids were substantially bigger than us. They died. Planet in fact did just fine. So much so that it created humans. So my point is, human species may die out if we don't go become a multi planetary society, but planet would just go on and probably create a super intelligent human species for all we know.

Yeah, yeah, that, that's where I have the advantage of being a Christian. I can just say God, God made the planet and he's not gonna let it go away because he works really hard on it. But we already had our hour long discussion about that.

God also created the universe. God wants you to live on all its creation.

Yeah, yeah, that is true. And that's something. I recently wrote an essay about this on my website called Our Father's World. And it's about this idea that everything, if you read in the Bible there's a verse about this, says everything was made by God and everything is good. And therefore who are we to say that the thorn of a rose is bad and to be cursed? Who are we to say that, that whatever, you know, psilocybin or cannabis are completely off limits or the living on.

The Mars is not possible?

That the moon isn't worthy of exploration just as much of the ocean? And I realize this is kind of more esoteric, woo thinking. But I was just curious. That's a good answer. That spirit of abundance would dictate that it's not that we should explore the ocean to the detriment of moon research or moon exploration, why not do both? I'm very curious. With as much research as you do and how much of a voracious lifelong learner that you are, if there are specific scientific journals or books or websites or podcasts or resources, you could give your top three, your top five, your top two. But if people want to explore some of the things that you found to be particularly intriguing or help helpful, either things that you think are interesting right now, or things that you've found to be really foundational for your own education, or both, what are the top resources that you would give to people?

So again, that depends on topic to topic, right? So when I was learning about microbiome, there were 30 or 40 journals that I followed on microbiome. When I'm looking at understanding the cellular health, then I go read the 40 journals that actually just on biology paper or Online, all online. And then what I also do is I read lots of books. And here is, by the way, the trick that I think most people don't understand. When you read one book on that subject, the author's view becomes your view. When you read 10 books on that subject, you have now not only 10 different views, you end up creating the 11th view that is your own based on everything that you have seen. Because now you're able to connect the dots that no one else has done and you create a unique view and which is what gives you the tremendous advantage.

I like that. And I'll pay you back on that to comment that the more books that you read on a specific topic, the more that you realize that just because something is on paper or written on the Internet does not mean that it's true.

That's right.

And this is something that, where people fail a lot, they assume that because something was able to be published, it is therefore true. And the more that you immerse yourself from kind of like a horizontal standpoint across a wide variety of books, even if it's in a single sector, the more you realize that there are some areas of disagreement and there are some areas of discontinuity and there are some areas where people, people disagree with each other or conflict with information.

That's where you can add value.

That's where you really begin to develop a well rounded view. And you realize, oh wow, I can read. But just because it's written down doesn't mean it's true. So yeah, don't just read one book on longevity. You know, read, read 10. So that being said, what are some specific resources?

Yeah, I'm going to come. So I'm just going to continue on that thought. I'm going to come right back to answering your question specifically. Right. So that, that's one part of reading the books. Other thing is you also want to read the thing that are maybe tangential or even not related to the subject that you are currently interested in. And the reason for that, I say, is that more often than not the solution to the problems that you're trying to solve may lie in completely different industry. Right. And so let's, for example, health is a great thing. You don't want to be reading lot of the current thinking on human biology or how the medical system gives drugs, because a solution may lie in a big data problem that is being solved in totally different industry. It may lie in the nanotechnology that is being done in somewhere else. It may lie into the AI that is being Developed for some other problem. Right? So the thing you also want to do is develop the horizontal knowledge that we were talking about, the foundational knowledge of many different industries. And that is the key because you want to learn the vocabulary, the basic vocabulary of different industries. And the way I did that was first of all, I watched a lot of TED talks. I go through Singularity University, that S I N G U L Singularity, Singularity University. And there you learn about the nanotechnology, the neuroscience and a whole bunch of subjects. And once you get the basic foundational knowledge and when you read a book, then you say, oh, I now understand what that means. And sometime here's the part that I think, you know, we have to be humble enough. When I read the first book, there's almost 70% of the stuff I don't understand because the first book I read and then I go back and sometime I watch the Khan Academy videos trying to understand, you know, Khan Academy guys. I mean, I'm not kidding you, honestly, like I was talking to Ali and then she's telling me about all this stuff that we're doing in the mitochondrial health. And she said, you know, this glycosis, glycolysis is happening from how carbon sugar get glycolized. And then you go look at the, the pyrote pathways and then we look at these crab cycle and you know, and then we go look at the electronic transport chain. I'm thinking, what is the thing here? Took a deep breath and I said, okay, I'm going to Khan Academy and I'm tapping electronic transport chain. And I've now gone through every single way how mitochondrial work. And I'm looking at the end of endoplasmic reticulum, how actually the things mitochondria produces, how it goes up the thing into plasma, how it's going to get converted into protein. But the reason I'm see that is it is okay. Now when I read the second time, the same thing that she was, I said, now I get it. Now I have clear understanding of why it is important and what is going on. Guess what? Now I can read second book and third book and a fourth book. And now every time I find a new concept, I go back and learn that concept. Right?

You will, you will like this tip. Because I know that you like to, to walk. You and your wife like to walk a lot. I. When I want to. For example, I don't subscribe to a great deal of podcasts, but I listen to a lot of podcasts and audiobooks because I like to walk, I like to hike. And I'll just view life as a constant series of education through my ears. And I have discovered one particularly helpful app. It's called Castbox. It's not the only podcast podcast consuming an audiobook consuming app that will do this, but it has a search engine in it that searches not only the title and the keywords and the description of a podcast or an audiobook, but the audio itself or the audio itself. And so if I have anything that I want to learn about in preparation for an interview, for example, let's say that you and I wanted to spend an entire interview talking about moon rocks. I don't know very much about moon rocks, but, but I can go to Castbox and I can do a use, set up a search term for moon rocks and I can download like 15 different podcasts that are a deep dive into that topic. And sometimes when I'm preparing for an interview or wanting to learn a specific thing, I will use a keyword search term on audio. And then I will just crush as much audio as I can for a whole month listening and listening.

So what did you do to prepare for this one, dude?

Well, to prepare for this one, fortunately. I know you're just this hack from Seattle, but I still have yet to read your book Moonshots, which I want to read. I just haven't gotten my hands on it yet. But you and I have talked enough back and forth to where I pretty much knew a lot. But what I did do was I read a few papers on transcriptomics. I read a few papers that are on the research section of your Health Intelligence website to better wrap my head around, around the testing of the proteins via RNA expression versus via, you know, just, just looking at the genes themselves, the genetics themselves.

That's good.

I normally, if I would have been super prepared, I would have finished doing this health Intelligence kit and you were.

Going to be doing that on next week.

You're an. Because you didn't let me do the test yet. So I'm, I think, I think I'm good to go on Monday and I'll let you guys know what the results are like on that. If you go to BenGreenfulFitness.com Moonshot Man, I'll link to that test and then I'll also probably put my results up for you guys. And so, so yeah, are you going to be surprised?

I'm going to ask you. So this is something you take so pride in the fact that you take great care of your body. You take all These superfoods, you take all these smoothies and all these tea, you have to tell me what that teeth contained. That the tea that I drank, that.

Tea, that was chocolate, chaga, cacao nibs, cacao shells, cayenne pepper, sea salt, monk fruit and a little bit of Eleuthero, ashwagandha and Rishi so that the energy was more stable and didn't result in a big rise and crash.

So here's the thing. So you're going to do the health intelligence test and here is what you're going to get. You're going to get the top six things. First of all, you're going to get your gut health score, you're going to get your mitochondrial health score, you're going to get your cellular stress, immune system health and you're going to get your stress response health. And under each one of them is going to show you like your cellular senescence score, your stress response score. You're going to get everything underneath it. And by the way, you get, you get your biological age. So question for you is, you get that stuff, you're going to look at that and let's assume your biological age is actually higher than your chronological age. Are you going to tell me my test sucks or that you think that you've been doing just really don't work?

That's a tough call, man. It's a tough call. The way that I think is, is I would first go and look more into the research on your website on the actual data, the big data behind the test itself. Because I'll first look for any holes that I could punch in it that I could say, oh, that says this, but it must be wrong. But then a lot of times I will try what I'm recommended to try. And if I note changes in heart rate variability and sleep and inflammation, anything else, then that's pretty good verification to me that's the case. For example, I think it was even when I did your viome test that I was found to have a very high count of, I believe it was actually the hydrogen sulfide based bacteria that you referred to earlier. And I decreased my intake of cruciferous vegetables of glutathione and a lot of stinky sulfurous foods like eggs and broccoli and sprouts, broccoli, asparagus, cauliflower, flour didn't completely stop those, but. And then I lowered the amount of garlic that I was consuming and I noted less of like a rotten egg odor in my stool. And so for me that's a simple Test, right? It's like, oh, okay, well, apparently I'm feeding those hydrogen sulfide producing bacteria a little bit too much. I should back off on this stuff.

But the same thing happens.

I'll just always experiment with those.

So this is interestingly, you also show your immune system health. We look at every single cytokines, we show you literally how your immune system is doing. So now that's the trick is that you do the test, you follow the things and you do the retest and you say, holy shit. Not only I feel better, my scores are getting better.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to doing the test for sure. And I know we're getting a little bit short on time. And again, I'm going to link to everything we Talk about@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Moonshotman but if there's one other thing that I want to, to ask the moonshot man here while I have him a captive audience with everything that you have learned, whether developing the health intelligence test, traveling the globe, you know, hanging out with a lot of health influencers, what do you think is the most remarkable thing that you've done for your own health in the past year?

Okay, so first of all, I mean, I feel that I have been inspired to learn more the more I have met some of the brilliant people. And again, I'm not just trying to, you know, give you compliment. You are, you are literally are top of your game. I mean, when it comes to fitness, you are on top of the game. There's no two ways about it. And having learned from you and many others, I have changed my own lifestyle. And not only I've lost £20. I mean, I am now 61 and I am better off now than I was when I was 40.

You have veins in your bice.

I mean, I'm not kidding you. I mean, you know, look at, I mean that you didn't see me that three years ago, right. I mean, I point is I look better, I feel better, I have. Not that I need more energy in my life. I am more energetic now at 60 than I was at 40.

And what would you say is that is the, is the top thing that you've done in the past year?

So first of all, changed my diet significantly and based on what I learned from the gut test and the health intelligence test and some of the basic things that I would have never thought, I mean, I ate almonds. I mean, I would have never cut that out until I realized they were causing me grief. Right. I mean, it was my Told my grandfather, my dad told me, that is the superfood. You eat almond because you want a better memory. I mean, I mean, I was told that if I didn't eat that, I'm going to lose my memory.

I have a client who did a Cyrex food allergy panel, and I got the results in yesterday. And one of his top, top staple food is almonds. And he's lit up like a Christmas tree. Off the charts for an autoimmune reaction to almonds. Not an oxalate sensitivity, which is a completely different issue. But, yeah, a lot of people don't realize these staple superfoods that you might be chomping on all day long.

Spinach, by the way, another was surprised to me.

Yeah. So for you, it was oxalates.

Yeah. And that was, I mean, my point was I would have never, ever thought that I'm gonna, you know, spinach and kale and almonds were bad for me. Right. And those were the surprises that were like, my God, what was I thinking? That means, it turns out there's no such thing as universal healthy food. Right. It really depends on each individual. The other thing was really starting to think about these nutrients because I realized that even though the foods give you a lot of nutrients we talked about, but sometimes you just have to supplement because you can't get enough of them in the food itself. And sometimes, as we talked about the fisetin versus strawberries, sometimes you just can't eat the food. So you have to still get the nutrient that you need. So other part that I really find, to me is every day, and I think you and I talked about on our walk, this was really interesting. I think it'd be good to bring it out. Every day you do something really interesting everyday morning routine that you talked about, the gratitude and to be able to feel that you learning something new every day. And I, you know, I was telling you that for me, I do do the same thing. I ask myself, am I intellectually better today than I was yesterday? Am I emotionally better today than I was yesterday? Am I spiritually better today than I was yesterday? Right. How am I growing into all these three dimensions? To me, I feel the day you stop growing, the day you stop learning is the day you have actually died. You become a zombie if you're not learning. So to me, the intellectual curiosity, capacity and learning is what makes us who we are, drives us forward and drives the humanity forward. If we're not the people like, who constantly learn and constantly were intellectually curious, we as humanity will never make any progress. Progress depends on people like us who constantly are curious. Why not what what if? Right? Why not what if? Imagine, I mean, these are the world that we use all the time. Imagine a world where illness is optional. What if that was possible? Why can't it be done right? These are the word that we and that. Those are the explorers I admire. Right. Richard Branson. I mean, who would. I mean, explore and how many industries he changes. Simply exploring the ways. And you and I, we know obviously you're not going to go have a trip and then we're going to go meet with them again. But the point is, these are the people who just constantly change the way people live and experience their lives.

Yeah. Yeah. And a few closing thoughts of my own based on what you've just said. A. I 100% agree on learning. And just so you guys know, learning hurts. Learning makes smoke come out your ears. Learning is almost a hormetic stressor in and of itself. And it's not supposed to feel comfortable. It's supposed to feel kind of tricky when you're trying to figure out that new fit. Fingering on the Ukulele song youg Want to Learn. Or you picked up that book full of 10 different words that when you're reading on the Kindle, you don't know what it means, so you got to press the little learn word button on the Kindle and go discover. Which is one great thing about learning. New books on a Kindle or on technology. And learning is supposed to take you outside your comfort zone. It's supposed to involve immersing yourself in topics with which you might be unfamiliar. And that I am convinced, is one of the best ways to keep the brain young, young. Especially if you associate that learning with actual physical implementation. And what I mean by that is, I think the very best is walk while you're listening to an intellectually challenging audiobook or go to the gym and learn something that makes you fall in your ass the first five times that you do it. Or brush your teeth with your left hand while you're standing on your right foot. I mean, the list goes on and on, but learning is supposed to be a little bit uncomfortable, comfortable. Second, yeah, I'm totally game to go to British Virgin island, but brother, you.

Didn'T talk about gratitude. I want you to talk about that thing, journaling. Journaling practice.

We'll get to gratitude also. But yeah, I, I actually want to interview Richard Branson. He's on, he's on my list of guys. So I'll have to go to it. So tell Richard I'm coming for him and if he, if, if, if I can't make it to British Virgin Islands, he's, he's got to come here and, and we'll throw him in the cold pool. And then, and then the, the last part is yes, I'm working on a. Actually the second to last part is yes, I'm working on a rewrite of my gratitude journal, changing the name into the Spiritual Disciplines journal. And it's going to involve four different practices. A, in the morning, you write down what you are grateful for. And you also write down one person who you can help or serve that day. And then in the evening, evening, you engage in a process of self examination in which you write down what good have I done this day? And what could I have done better on this day? And in addition to that self examination set of questions, you say, how did I best live out my life's purpose on this day? And so the journal encompasses multiple variants of practices of self spiritual discipline, particularly gratitude. Gratitude, service, self examination and purpose. And purpose. And there's, there's an inspirational quote or verse on the top of each page. And it's something I've been wanting to do for a while. So during this pandemic I, you know, the first 70 days I wrote a cookbook and for the, for the next 20 days thus far I've been working on the complete rewriting of the journaling. And that's something I've been, you know, anything I do, I practice. And so I've been doing that form of journaling I've just described. What am I grateful for? Who can I help or serve in the morning? And then what good have I done this day? What could I have done better? And how did I live out my life's purpose in the evening? So I should have that book done in a couple of months. And out to people. And then finally, you west side Seattle guy, are you ready to go into downtown Spokane now and see how the east side has developed? And how long has it been since you've been to the east side?

I've never been to east side. I just thought it's just nothing but farmland.

I just read and people with pickup trucks and gun racks. But I'll bring you downtown, we'll go to a nice juice bar, we'll go, go check out the waterfall and who knows, maybe you'll fall in love with Spokane and like it better than Bellevue.

Well, I tell this, falling in love is something we always do. You have to first fall. The day you fall in love with yourself is the day you can fall in love with the world, right? So there you are. So I first of all, I'm just so grateful for you, for your hospitality. You have been an amazing host and I just want you to know that you have an amazing family. You know, your wife is just so sweet and your kids are just marvelous. I mean, I'm just so impressed with you and your family that I hope I get to host you at our place next soon.

Amen man. Amen. All right folks. BenGreenfieldFitness.com Moonshot Man I'm going to link to Naveen's book. I'm going to link to my other two interviews with him. I'll link to this health and ticket intelligence testing that we talked about. I'll link to some interesting research articles based on the oral biome and a few of the other things that we discussed. And also, that is where you can go BenGreenfieldFitness.com Moonshotman to leave your questions, your comments, your thoughts, your feedback, I read them all. I love to hear your guys thoughts. So if you think Naveen's a complete asshole and I should never have him on again, you can let me know and I'll be sure to pass that on to him. But Naveen, in the meantime, congratulations on your third episode, third recording, third interview, and thank you everybody for listening. Until next time, I'm Ben Greenfield, along with the great billionaire and entrepreneur Naveen Jain signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have an amazing week. Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the shots, the show notes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful Ben Recommends page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormones, sleep digestion, fat loss, performance, and plenty more. Please also know that all the links, all the promo codes that I mentioned mentioned during this and every episode help to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. So when you listen in, be sure to use the links in the show notes. Use the promo codes that I generate because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.