How To Do Wim Hof Breathing "The Right Way", Making Your Own DMT, Inhaling Pure Carbon Dioxide, Cold Showers, MDMA & Much More - The Keys to Human Resilience.

On this episode of the Ben Greenfield.

Fitness Podcast, what literally happened for me is I envisioned a wedge pushing that space between the stimulus of the ice water and the reaction that my body had. It's scary when two guys face off against each other. This is usually not about cooperation and love or anything, right? This is about, I'm gonna murder you with this weapon in my hand. And all of a sudden, this confrontational, sort of dangerous exercise turns from danger.

To D. Health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. I've been getting crazy people on the show, and today's journalist is no exception to the that rule. His name is Scott Carney. He just wrote a really, really great book. Been reading a lot of good books lately. You may have heard my podcast last week with James Nestor on his new book, Breathe. And this book, I would say, falls into the same category as a thrilling read for anybody who wants to learn a little bit more about how the body ticks from a physical and mental optimization standpoint. It's. It's. I'm going to shut up because you just got to hear the interview. Well, as you guys know, I love to interview immersive journalists. You know, sometimes I like to think of myself as a little bit of an immersive journalist, but I come nowhere near some of the folks who I've interviewed who have gone out and done crazy expeditions and adventures, come back and written really thrilling and inspirational titles based on what they learned. One of my favorite guys who does this, his name Scott Carney. And Scott was on my podcast episode a couple years ago. He wrote book called what doesn't kill us, why your body needs freezing water, extreme altitude, and environmental conditioning. And we jammed on a lot of stuff about, like, getting, you know, what hypoxia and getting way high up in the mountains does for you and what super cold conditions do for you. And essentially, as the book implies, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And we just really, really geeked out on hormesis. And so if you didn't get a chance to listen to that episode, I do highly recommend it. And I will link to that episode I did with Scott if you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com the Wedge. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com The Wedge. W E D G E. Why the Wedge? Because Scott just came out with a new book that I think was just as good as what doesn't kill us. And the name of that book is called the Wedge. You're going to find what the Wedge is during this show. But essentially it's a book chock full of what Scott calls the keys to human resilience. And I am all about making yourself harder to kill, not for your own ego, but so that you can better equip yourself to make as big an impact on this planet as you can during the time that you are walking the face of this earth. And I think that being resilient and hard to kill, whatever that means for you, is a good skill to have. So Scott wrote this book and I was able to get my hands on it. I read it, I had a lot of pages folded over, so I wanted to get into everything he talks about, from the subtle language of how your body responds to your environment, to some of the stuff that he did at this cutting edge neuroscience laboratory at Stanford, to kettlebell tossing, to some updates on Wim Hof breathing, to plant medicine, CO2 inhalation. A lot of stuff in there. So, Scott, welcome back, man.

Hey, man, this is so fun to be back here. And I am. What a great intro, man. It's like awesome to have somebody who's actually read my book interviewing me, which is, you know, it's an honor.

Well, you know, you know what? When books sent to me by publishers, they inevitably come with the 8 1/2 by 11 piece of paper that says, here's what this book's about, here's all the questions to ask the author. And that thing gets crumpled up and thrown in the trash right away. I don't even want it in front of me because I don't want my thought pattern interrupted by the questions that you would expect me to ask. I instead like to come up with my own questions based on shocker. Having actually read the book.

That's great. This is going to be a fun conversation.

Yeah. And my rule is always, if I get through the first two chapters or if it's a Kindle, if I get to the preview and there's. There's nothing compelling to me and I don't fold over a single page or I don't chuckle or I don't highlight, then I don't continue. And maybe I miss the meat of a lot of good books with that rule, but I find that that tends to be a pretty good rule. Like, if it's not turning your head within the first couple of chapters, it's. It's a tosser. So your book, though, your book got. Got some pages folded over right off the bat, so. And really you know, one of the first things that I came across was this term I wasn't really familiar with called the wedge. The Wedge, which is of course the title of the book as well. So can you get into what the Wedge is?

Yeah. So, you know, at first, you know, this is in a way a continuation of my book, what Doesn't Kill Us. Because in that book I was hanging out with Wim Hof in Poland. I was actually the first journalist who had really ever written about him in a sort of serious way. And you know, for those of you who don't know the training, and we're not really going to go into it too much here, but it's essentially hyperventilating, exhaling and holding your breath until you can hold your breath for really long periods of time. You know, for me it's like three minutes on a stretch.

On an exhale or on an inhale?

On an exhale, yeah. On an inhale I can hold it a little longer. And then the other part of the Wim Hof method is jumping into ice water and sitting there and then controlling your response to that sort of freezing, clenching stimulus. And then over time, you do these two things. You get pretty resilient. You find that not only are you really good at handling ice water and holding your breath, who cares? You find that you have a lot of less anxiety. You have autoimmune changes. And that book is really great. What doesn't kill us? Dive in.

If I could interrupt you, I want to throw in two quick things regarding Wim Hof and I think we'll talk more about breathworks. You have some new, some really cool new shit on breathwork in this book. But a, you mentioned getting into the ice and I should clarify because a lot of people get confused about this. You don't get into the ice bath while you're holding your breath. Usually you use the. You use the breath holds as a breathe up to prepare your body with that kind of inner fire type of breathing to get into the water. So anybody listening in, don't get into water with your breath held. It's a bad idea. And then the other thing that is kind of cool, just relevant to this discussion is I just finished during quarantine. I figured, what the heck, I might as well equip my children's immune system with something other than, than vitamin C and vitamin D and zinc. And so we did four weeks of daily Wim Hof breathwork and ice baths. I have this thing called the Morozco Forge right outside my office. You got to really, like, plunge through the ice, get in. And my. My little boys just went through four weeks. We did almost like a gong, you know, like. Like, it was about 48 consecutive days of. Of ice baths and Wim Hof. So it's fresh on my mind right now because there's no way I was going to make my kids do it without doing it myself. So. So, yes, I've been deeply immersed in that practice of late.

That's great. And, yeah, the forge is actually a really cool thing because it keeps the water cold all the time. And if you have some trouble having access to cold water, that's a good solution. Although a little pricey, I will say, but, yeah. Anyway, so the question was, what is the wedge? Right? So imagine you're jumping into that ice water, right? And your body's natural response is to clench up, right? It's to like, oh, no, I'm fighting this. And you're releasing adrenaline, cortisol, all, you know, great stress hormones that let you sort of fight through that situation. What you do in the Wim HOF method, though, is you relax. You're trying to will yourself into a different state. And when I first did this with Wim, you know, this was in 2011. I'm in Poland, I'm in some sort of icy lake with him, and he looks at me and says, you must relax. And what literally happened for me is like, I saw this vision in my head of like. Or I envisioned like a wedge, like this thing pushing that space between the stimulus of the ice water and the reaction that my body had. And I was just pushing that space. And by doing that, I created time before my body naturally did that. And then I gained control over that bodily response. So what the wedge is the easiest way to think about it is separating stimulus from response. And I know there's other techniques out there that also have the same definition. Mindfulness has this in there as well. But we're really trying to dig deep into the body, put our ourselves in stressful situations, and then change the way that we respond and react. And that creates biological responses in our body. Let us do all sorts of things that we didn't expect at the end of what doesn't kill us. I'm climbing up Mount Kilimanjaro. It's negative 30 degrees outside. I've gotten up there really fast, and I'm in my underwear on the mountain, which, I mean, was very cold. But I managed to do this. And it was because I'm playing with the sensations that I Feel in order to modulate my body. You know, I know that Ben, you are a huge Persona and really, really smart about all the world of supplements, about the world of sort of like getting into the individual structures of biology. But for me, the object that I work on is sensation because I know that sensation is that key between sort of experience and biology. So I'm really looking and trying to modulate our reactions to sensation to get physical outputs that are maybe different than what we would expect was possible.

Okay, so if I understand this correctly, and by the way, the, the extent to which the suffering occurs when you're climbing a mountain in your underwear depends on your definition of underwear, because some pretty badass long wooly underwear that, that one could climb a mountain quite easily. And so like a bathing suit, right?

A little tiny, like a modern bathing suit. Not like, not like a 1920s full body one.

If I ever do it. I'm going with the Mankini root anyways though, so. So the wedge, basically what you're des that the stimulus that arise from, let's say, a stressful signal to the body that travels to the brain and then elicits a physiological response, such as a rise in blood pressure or an increase in heart rate or an increase in breath rate. What you're doing is essentially hacking that response via specific mechanisms that you've learned to. Instead of engaging in a stressful physiological response with something like Wim Hof breathwork and cold being a perfect example, instead, almost like a relaxatory response or at least an inhibition of the stressor response.

Yeah, well, you can go either way. You can also activate your stress response if you want, because the stimulus could also be a very relaxing stimulus that you want to find a different way to modulate. But in general. Yeah, that's exactly right. Is that when our body senses anything, like if you think about the brain as like sitting in a float tank in your skull, right. The only way it knows what's going on in the world is through your sensory channels, right through the signals coming from your eyes, your ears, your nose, your skin. And that gets translated to chemical and electrical signals that sort of have to enter up through your spine, get to your brain. And then your brain has reactions which are automatic and has responses which are like sort of things you choose. And what I'm doing is making things more responsatory. I made that word up too. You can now you have it too. But you make these things responses instead of reactions. And you know, you said, you know, you get into the ice water and Then your blood pressure changes. Well, yeah, it can, but you could also sort of intervene in the sensation of the ice water so that when it comes up there, it doesn't trigger panic. And that's by literally focusing on the sensations. Like what is the sensation of ice water? Do I think of it as a threat when it comes in? Because it's just a signal, it's just electrical and chemical signals, or do I think about that as something that I can welcome into my body and allow to be there? And that's the magic, right? It's the magic of trying to react reidentify signals so that your body responds in different ways. And you know, admittedly in some cases this can be dangerous. Like, you don't want to like, you know, realign fire, right? You don't want to put your hand in fire and be like, no, no, that fire is just totally fine. I can deal with this. Because then you're damaging your body.

Unless you're at a Tony Robbins conference.

Actually, the Tony Robbins thing is really quite interesting, you know. So those of you who don't know Tony Robbins is his big self help guru. A lot of people love him. One of the things he does is has crowds of people walk over hot coals, right? So they're literally walking over and you feel a great sense of accomplishment when you do it. And occasionally people get burned while doing that, but most people don't. But you know, the people who get burned, you know who they are? They're the people who are the most confident that they're gonna be okay in getting across. Because the people who admittedly when you're looking at fire and you're like, like your butt's puckering and you're like, oh my God, fire is going to burn me, you actually release just a little bit of perspiration on the bottom of your feet. Not very much, but just a little. So that when you go across and it only takes like a second to get across the hole, that that provides enough thermodynamic insulation that it allows you to survive. But the person who's super confident and is like, yeah, man, I got this. I know I am the best. I'm not even giving any rise. Well, they're actually using the wedge to do that, but they're using it in the wrong way because when they step on that coal, the heat transference is instantaneous and then they get all burned.

So a good foot sweater would do well at a Tony Robbins conference. All you need to do is train your feet to perspirate now, before I actually ask you about a really interesting example of the wedge that you present early in the book and how it relates to this idea of creating neural symbology, which was kind of a new concept that I'd come across. Probably one of the simplest examples you gave in the book was public speaking, which is of course something many people are afraid of. That and death, which is why that old joke goes. You wouldn't want to give your own eulogy at. What is it? Giving a eulogy at your own funeral is probably the biggest fear anyone might have. But what you talk about is if you have an aversion to public speaking and you focus on the nervousness as the speaking event draws near, you're more likely going to panic when you get up there to give the talk. But if you focus on some fun or rewarding aspect of the experience, then you attach a totally different emotional value to it. You created like a different, what you call a neural symbol for public speaking. But you, of course, as part of this book, did not necessarily engage in a public speaking course. However, one of the things that you did regarding neural symbology was a rather novel use of kettlebells. I'm curious to hear about how you did that and how that kind of helps to explain the connection between physiology and sensation.

Well, let me actually dig down on neural symbols because it's a little bit of a complex concept, but it is super important to how we experience the world. So here's what it is. Like aren again, your brain is floating around in a float tank inside your skull. How does it get information about the world? And this is a thing, you know, this goes right back to birth. Like you're born, you're plopped out into the world and you have no experience of anything, right? And, and every time you feel something, right, this is going to create an archive of information that, wherein your body learns about the world. And the fundamental process is what I'm calling, yeah, neural symbols. And so let's look at, let's take the example of jumping into ice water. Even if you don't do ice water, you can imagine what that feels like, right? Just think about yourself, ice on your body and you're going to want to clench a little bit that that's natural. Now let's put our hero into that ice plunge. And this is the first time they've ever experienced ice in their life. We're putting at the very beginning of their ice plunge life, they fall into the ice and then their skin, all of those neurons go, holy crap. And they send this signal. It goes through their peripheral nerves. It goes into their central channel in the spinal column, and it's basically chemicals, electricity, and there's a volume to it, but there's no character, right? It doesn't mean anything. It rockets into the brain, the lowest areas of brainstem, which is the limbic system. And for this example, I like to think of the limbic system as something like a library. And there's a librarian in this library, and she gets this signal and it comes in. She's like, whoa, this is really loud. But I have no idea what it means because she's looked at all of the books in her library, and she says, nope, no ice bathroom there. So what she does is she kicks this over to the paralympic system, which is like a centimeter away, maybe even less than a centimeter. It kicks over there, and the paralympic system is something like a book binder. And he gets this message from the librarian, says, hey, I don't know what this means. Can you identify it for me? And he says, sure. He takes the signal of the ice water, looks at it and says, huh, this is the current emotional state that I'm feeling right now. That's what ice water means. And ice water, because there are actually some innate responses to cold that actually are even before of this, the experience of ice water is unmitigated terror and horror, right? That you're there. So he's like, okay, ice water, unmitigated terror and horror. Binds those two things together. Kicks it down to the librarian. She's like, cool, I know what to do with ice water now. It's unmitigated horror and terror. She files it into her library, and you go on having the experience of ice water. However that proceeds for you now, and this is the most important thing here, is that the next time you experience, you jump into that ice bath. That signal rockets through your peripheral nerves as just signal. It comes up your central channel as just signal. It gets to the limbic librarian, and she's like, cool, I felt this before. It's unmitigated horror and terror. Because I have the book on the shelf, and she goes off, and she never sends it back to the limbic librarian. Which means that no matter what, what you're experiencing in life, you are living in your emotional past. And neural symbols are like. If you think of the body as like a computer, right? These are like the bits and the bytes, the ones and the zeros that make up consciousness. Because it's not just ice water that gets filed like this, it's. Every single experience you have since birth has to come in through those channels, gets filed in these, in these libraries, and that's how you experience the world. So what we're doing in the wedge oftentimes is trying to fill up that library to have more and more neural symbols there so that you don't just live in your emotional past. Because the thing that you can do is you can actually hack the way you experience something because that, you know, because you're actually. It's not just a one time thing or it's not you just like get one symbol for ice water. It's every time it comes in, you do have another opportunity to create a new symbol. And if you were having an entirely different emotional bent, when that comes in, you have the chance for that book binder to create a new emotional attachment to that signal. And then you get a larger library of books. So that's like the, that's like the 101.

By the way, this is exactly what. Actually a fellow who you spent some time with in researching this book, and I think he listens to this podcast, we'll say hello to him. Andrew Hubert down at Stanford. He does a ton of neuroscience research. We had a chance to punish a bunch of meat at Bel Campo in LA a few months ago. And Andrew's a great guy. I randomly ran into him swinging kettlebells actually at Gold's Gym the next morning. And he's also a beast of a man. So wonderful researcher, very smart guy. Off to have him on the podcast at some point. But if anybody wants to check out Andrew Huberman's research lab at Stanford, he's doing a lot of things in this respect regarding neural symbology and kind of reprogramming the brain with stress. You're doing things like virtual deep dives with the great white sharks and all sorts of crazy stuff. But how does this relate this idea of neural symbology to something interesting that you got into in writing this book, this idea of throwing kettlebells at one another.

Yeah. So yeah, I was at Andrew's lab, right? Andrew Huberman's lab, and he was like making me swim with virtual sharks. And the idea was to get into a place which is really scary and then control your responses to that scary stimulus. And that was like sort of the one basic concept of how the wedge techniques can operate. The problem was, is swimming with virtual sharks is just not scary unless you're scared of sharks, which I happen to not be. So I was like, this is sort of lame. Even though he's got great explanations for how we wire our brains together. It wasn't actually that useful. I was looking for a technique that I could could use. So I was leaving Huberman's lab and I get a message from a friend of mine, Tony Floriel. And he says, scott, you gotta go meet my friend Michael Castro Giovanni, because he'll throw kettlebells at you to put you into an instantaneous flow state. And I got this message and I was like, that's possibly the douchiest text message I've ever gotten in my whole life. What does it mean? And my association with kettlebells at that point was basically overly large Russian dudes swinging things around. And I wasn't sure why. Now I know they're more interesting than that now, but this is my association. But I was like, you know, I got some time. Why don't I go swing by and see what this Michael dude's all about. So we meet in San Francisco, and Michael is a gorilla. Like, think about a gorilla. And that is Michael. He is large. His biceps are as big as my thighs. He's sort of hunched over.

If you have a picture of him in the book with a kettlebell flying through the air like six feet above his head, it looks like about a. Maybe like a two pooed, 70 pound ket. Literally, like way up above his head. The big bearded man standing in a field.

Yeah. And like legitimately a dangerous guy looking guy. And he's not. He's really nice, but looks dangerous. And so we're standing across from each other and I'm looking at him and he's holding this kettlebell and I know he's gonna throw it at me. And I'm, you know, a little bit freaked out because it's scary when two guys face off against each other. This is usually not about cooperation and love or anything, right? This is about, I'm gonna murder you with this weapon in my hand. So I'm looking at him and there's this ritual to kettlebell throwing. And you know, everyone who's thinking, wait, he throws kettlebells? Probably at some point in your mind already you've thought to yourself, oh, he's gonna break his foot, right? That came into your mind? He's gonna fucking break his foot. And at this point I was thinking, I'm gonna fucking break my foot. It's gonna happen. And so he swings it. And this is the ritual. Like, you first you look at each other's eyes, right? And then he does one swing and then another swing. So You've been looking at each other's eyes. On the second swing, you're supposed to switch your attention from each other's eyes getting connected to each other to the threat that's going to definitely land on my foot, the kettlebell. And so we switch our, we switch our gaze. And on the third swing, he lets it go and it flips through the air and my butt puckers tight enough to like crunch a diamond probably. And yet it lands in my hand because I am laser, like, focused on this thing that's about to kill me. I grab it, it goes between my legs, and I just fling it back. And all of a sudden, this potentially confrontational, sort of dangerous exercise turns from danger to dancing. I am literally dancing with a gorilla. And the exercise is not really about getting fit, although you certainly can get fit doing this. It's about connection, it's about empathy. It's about the fact that I don't want to hurt him and he doesn't want to hurt me. And we find that we have this whole language now that is created by the situation we made because the danger of the kettlebell is always real and it demands your attention. And because we're both focused on it, on that danger, our movements coordinate automatically. This is a flow state. This is, this is two people communicating and operating as sort of like one mind when we're doing it. And this was like a magical eye opening experience for me.

You know, I should throw in, by the way, that the idea of kettlebells and, you know, kettlebell tossing, kettlebell throwing, body awareness in the presence of fear and relaxation, in the presence of the fear of something like a kettlebell landing on your foot is not something I think, to a kettlebell tossing course to experience. Because I just got done with my Russian kettlebell cert a few weeks ago, and now I'm training for Russian kettlebell cert too. And many of the poses do involve the necessity to relax, to do deep nasal breathing and to. With a. With a relatively large, unwieldy object often locked out over your head, engage in movement patterns that you are learning. I am truly convinced and I actually use kettlebells a lot with the clients I train to. I'm convinced that kettlebells are one of the best ways to train not just cardiovascular function and overall strength, but also relaxation when in a metabolically demanding situation.

Totally. And they're so simple. Right. It's just a weight with a handle on it. And yet you can get involved in so many different types of exercise. People get really fit with kettlebells, which is awesome like that. But for me that's like weirdly the side effect because it's that relaxation you're talking about under stress, which is what is re for me. And I love seeing two people do it together. Although I also will juggle kettlebells. Like juggling sounds like you've got three or four. I'm really just talking about one. I'm sort of throwing it up and catching it and that sort of thing. But you know, here's the really cool thing. It's like you're training empathy. You go from fear to trust. And one of the most amazing ways to get into kettlebell throwing is to do it with a partner. Like your partner, like your wife or your partner or your spouse or whatever. Because what usually happens is at first kettlebell throwing is really difficult for couples. Like they throw terribly at first because every relationship has these little islands that we don't want to go to. Right. Like the island of, you know, I don't want to talk about your mother because she makes me angry. And so you don't really go to that island very often. And it's okay that these islands don't exist. That exist. You can still have a fine relationship. But you start seeing those trust barriers show up in kettlebell partner passing because it's things that you don't talk about. And then over time when you start doing it more and more often, you realize that you're both putting yourself in vulnerable positions. Right. You're both can have your foot smashed by that kettlebell. So you have to be very, very careful. And presumably you love your partner. Right? Presumably what actually ends up coming out are all the positive emotions. And so there's a way to do all almost therapy with kettlebells in a way that you don't have to go through the actual talking which can create its own barrier at times.

Right, right. Well, you might contribute to some domestic violence reports from kettlebells being smashed into partners heads. With the release of this book and I'm hoping people go about this the right way, what I'll do is I'll also link to Michael's website in the show notes@bengreenfieldfitness.com theweb wedge if people want to look into kind of learning how to do kettlebell tossing, my wife I think is probably not going to be on board. Although I haven't, haven't breached this topic with her yet. I think she's probably going to want to stick to our relatively friendly tennis death matches. But the the kettlebell thing I did find intriguing, and it's a good way to illustrate this idea of neural symbology. Another thing that you get into quite a bit in the book. And, you know, forgive me, because I know you talk about a lot more in the book than this, but I have of late, for the reasons I dictated earlier, found breathwork to be just absolutely fascinating. And you talk about two things in the book that I'd like to spend a little time on if you're game, and that's breath work and also plant medicine, because those were two pretty interesting parts of this book and a big part of it. So the first is this idea of carbon dioxide, right? Often vilified as this acidic gas that you would not want an excess in your body, yet a very helpful molecule. Now, I've mentioned in the past this idea of CO2 retention and in doing so cited the work of folks like Patrick McCown, who wrote the Oxygen Advantage, who gets into things like the long lived livid potential of, say, like the naked mole rat or the bowhead whale, and how part of that is tied to their very high CO2 tolerance, their simultaneous maintenance of high levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide. And, you know, for me as a physiologist, the idea of this Bohr effect, right, the idea that when you have high levels of carbon dioxide, oxygen more readily dissociates into tissue issue. It's. I've always found that to just really make sense that you wouldn't want to necessarily blow off all your CO2 unless you were in fact trying to induce some type of sympathetic acidic, you know, something like Wim Hof breathing, for example, which, which could be used to. To kind of get you into a very sympathetic state. And part of that breathwork practice is you're breathing off a lot of CO2, but that doesn't mean CO2 is bad. And you took a deep dive into CO2. Tell me about carbon dioxide and how you played around with it and your experience with carbon dioxide.

Well, you know, the first thing to note is that breathwork is the ultimate wedge, right? Breathing at one moment, you can just take over this process, right? You can breathe right now, take it as deep a breath as you can, and you have total control. And even yet, at the same time, if you stop paying attention, it is a completely automatic process, right, where it just sort of occurs without you thinking about it at all. And this is why, going back to any esoteric tradition, breathwork really lies at the heart of everything. One of the first meditations the Buddha ever taught was focus on your breathing. And he had a couple different types. The yogis had pranayama, which was a. Which is various types of breathing patterns to induce different states. And I have two chapters on breathwork in the book. One of them is, like, me messing around with breath work in order to induce sort of a psychedelic state. And in this, I am hanging out with a WIM HOF method instructor in a sort of a large group setting. And I'd just given a lecture and I was like, I'm gonna stay for the breath work and the WIM HOF breathing. You know, you start breathing really rapidly. In the really long sessions where you're doing like an hour or even two hours of WIM HOF breathing, your breath holds get really, really long. And, you know, I can. In that sort of setting, I can hold my breath for five, seven minutes because you really start getting deep into your sensations.

On the. Sorry to clarify again. On the inhale or on the exhale.

On the breath out. Exhale.

Okay, so that's pretty impressive.

Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. And I can't just do it right now. You can't say, scott, hold your breath for seven minutes? No, I have to be, like, doing it for a while to get to that moment. There's this trick, and I'm not going to detail how to do it on your podcast because I think it can be dangerous for people. But it's like 10% different than a normal WIM HOF session. Like, there's just a little thing you do which is just slightly different that kind of can. That. That, that. That alters the experience. Because normally when I'm doing the breathing, I'll have like, these visions in my mind. And, you know, you can say that this is chemical neurons firing. You could say it's talking to God. You could say whatever the hell you want it. All I know is that I see patterns and faces and things when I'm doing this could be, well, be my subconscious.

Look, man, you. You. You might not want to describe it, but. But I can, because this is also something that I wove in with the course that I brought through my boys and. Or with my boys. And it's essentially very similar to Wim Hof breathwork, but with an extremely intense, long, full breath in with a. With squeezing every single muscle from your toe all the way up to the top of your head as hard as you can, especially your pelvic muscles, and basically holding that push all the way up, shooting light out the top of your head, and often Doing that for multiple rounds and essentially what you're doing is, is just hypercharging your pineal gland to produce DMT. Like my, my 12 year old boys have literally been steeped in DMT like at least two or three times a week with this protocol. And of course we're very careful in the first few times you're lying down and then because I think your chakras align better when you're in a cross legged position. We've been shifting to do it in a cross legged position but that's essentially what it is. If anyone's driving now, please pull over if you're attempting to try this. But I mean, look, look Scott, I'm looking at it right now have, and I'm not a huge fan of this, I think it can actually kind of, kind of up your, your ego and some of your, some of your neural patterning, the, the smoking of the chemical dmt. But I actually have a dmt. I have a DMT vape pen and very seldomly I've, I've hit it because I actually don't really enjoy it. I don't enjoy the intensity of it. What I enjoy is the initiation of DMT via my own breath. It feels far more natural and far less potentially damaging to brain chemistry when I'm achieving it via breathwork. But that push, that hold, that squeeze, which is also a tactic often used in Kundalini, it is very intense. And one other anecdote, and I don't know if you experience this, but I have found that my orgasm during sex have absolutely, just, just increased by leaps and bounds in terms of their length, their intensity and the overall experience of sex after. Really, really sticking with this DMT style breathwork multiple times per week.

Do you do it during sex or do you do it just. You keep that in your practice?

No, I'm just saying by doing this DMT practice and we've been doing it about three times a week, week usually before dinner in the sauna, finishing up with an ice bath. But then, and my wife isn't even with us when we're doing this, just me and my boys. But then later on that evening if I have sex, it's just a complete next level.

Yeah, you're in. My life sounds like remarkably similar. Other than that I don't have kids, I have two cats and they don't participate in any of this shit. But our lives sound actually remarkably similar. And I would say that yeah, this stuff goes deep, it rewires you, you, it clears things out and makes You a lot more aware of possibility in your body and I have very similar results to what you're describing here as well. To continue the story, I did this DMT breathing in Eli's class and I basically turned purple because you're holding your breath when you're doing it and you're doing this at the end of a long breath hold you, your autonomic breathing responses are off, like you've sort of subsumed them and they'll only regain until you consciously start it up again, which is hard to do since you're blasting down this tunnel of light or if you pass out and then it will restart automatically there. So you have a fail safe. But Eli sort of like sort of grabbing me on the shoulder and it's like, scott, Scott, don't die in my class. Because honestly, it looks really scary from the outside. This is really about internal sensations. It will not look good on TV, it will not look good on your YouTube channel. It's about really digging in deep. And also it's important to point out that we do not know what the medical benefits are of this or if it's dangerous. It's like this is something that we can do, that we can induce and this is on the bleeding and edge of any science that will ever get done on this because I don't think anyone's going to research it for real. But I do find it really interesting and I actually do. When I'm doing the Wim Hof breathing, I will do short versions of this on the recovery breath. Between repetitions, I'll do a minor DMT push and it does push my practice a lot further down. When I do that, I always do this lying down. I don't recommend in general sitting up because I've seen enough people pass out and hit their heads on the, the ground while doing it. Sitting up.

Yeah, the way, the way that we do it is we sit cross legged with our backs against the wall of the sauna and we all have a folded up towel in front of us and so we can always kind of like go head down if we need to. And interestingly, something, something you might find fascinating, there is, there is a plant extract called Blue Lotus. And Blue Lotus is something that actually enhances any type of DMT experience. And, and while it can be, you can actually smoke Blue Lotus or in some cases take it orally, what we do is we just put a little bit on the upper lip. I have this company called Essential Oil Wizardry that we get the Blue Lotus from and that Amplifies the experience even more. And then the other interesting thing that I found when I was looking into DMT is that calcification of the pineal gland actually really reduces the ability to be able to produce dmt. And in many people who may not have a good response, sometimes it's related to pineal gland calcification. And two things I've come across that can contribute to that are high amounts of fluoride consumption like drinking fluoridated water. And then the other is very high exposure to lots of like EMF, Wi Fi, you know, 5G, Bluetooth signals, etc. So lack of heavy amounts of emergency IMF and then also attention paid to like your, your personal care products to ensure you're not consuming a lot of fluoride or you know, getting a good water filter without fluoride, that seems to help. And then the, the other thing is there is this, there's this thing in the longevity and anti aging sectors that comes out of Russian research. This guy named Dr. Kavinson did a bunch of research on this. It's called a peptide and upon injection it has been shown to reduce all cause risk of mortality. It's one of the best telomere lengthening longevity compounds that exists. But a side effect of it is decalcification of the pineal gland. That one's called epitalon and most folks using it do about a 10 to 20 day injection one time a year. And it's wonderful for the pineal gland. So there's all sorts of kind of cool ways you can hack a DMT experience.

Well, and also one interesting thing about the pineal gland, right, Is that so in addition to, to dmt, it's the source of melatonin in your body, right? And that's the sleep chemical. But what is so fascinating about the connection between breath work and DMT is that DMT is only one carbon dioxide molecule off of melatonin. So that sort of shows you why there's this connection between those two things like DMT and melatonin. You add the CO2 to melatonin, boom, you have have DMT. It needs to be done in very specific ways in certain organs and whatnot to make it work. But this is why there's that connection with breath work is because we're actually using the CO2. I mean maybe in the squeeze, and here I'm going way off book. Maybe in the squeeze you're pushing CO2 into the pineal gland. I don't know. Interesting, interesting thought but you asked about the other thing that. The other sort of breath work that I was doing. And you also very presciently noted Patrick McKeown's book, the Oxygen Advantage. So with the WIM Hof method, you're blowing off CO2 in general. And then at the end of the long breath hold, you've sort of supercharged your CO2, right? Because you blow off, you hyperventilate, and then you hold your breath for really long periods of time. That means that your CO2 levels are now filling up your lungs through respiration. Is it through respiration? I forget the word for it. But because you're not breathing, your body's just dumping CO2 into your lungs until you breathe out. Out. Now, with the Buteyko method, which is essentially trying to slow down your breathing. And there's various ways of doing it. Nasal breathing, just breathing slower. There's several ways to get into this, that what you do is you build up that tolerance to CO2. And most Americans are. And actually most people in the Western world are chronic mouth breathers, right? We. We just have our mouths slack jog. And I am guilty of this, too. Like, I am not the. You know, I like mouth breathing. I do it all the time. It's super easy. Air moves in and out. I get it. But the problem with this is because the movement of gas is so much, so much less restricted through the mouth that we just end up breathing a lot faster. And if you look to indigenous groups, and McEwen mentions this, but Brian McKenzie, who's actually the guy I actually talked to specifically I've. About breathing in the book.

Yeah, he's been on the show before.

Brian's fantastic. Love the guy. He says that in indigenous groups around the world, we look at some sort of old text together. In the book, they were very serious about breathing only through the nose. They would even do the equivalent of taping their mouths shut, even though they didn't have tape. They'd use other ways to do it, keeping their mouth shut throughout the night. So they would learn to build up this, effectively CO2 tolerance, even though I'm sure they didn't think of it that way. And the reason why you'll do this is because if you're really tolerant to CO2 and you're always breathing through restricted pathways, when you switch over to the open mouth breathing, you can actually get a lot more oxygen. So you can actually blow off the roof and have much more intense exertion because you're so used to CO2 in your body. So in. So it's like restricted mouth, restricted breathing, sort of builds up the floor of your tolerance and then letting it go, doing the hyperventilation sort of blows off the roof. So you can sort of, by manipulating those two methods, you can actually get some really cool events. But the other thing that's super interesting about CO2 is that it correlates with anxiety. And you know, if you and every creature on earth going at least to fruit flies we know know is it gets anxious around CO2. So if you have like a CO2 heavy room or like a volcanic eruption, fruit flies are going to run away from it. And everyone else evolved down that chain is evolved to that. Because the body doesn't actually detect oxygen, we detect CO2 levels in our body. And that's just sort of a quirk of evolution. But too much CO2 in the ambient environment could be deadly in the ancient history. And so that's why we're all wired like this. And when you have too much CO2, if you look at somebody who does cognitive behavioral therapy, which is the, you know, it's the gold standard of therapy out there right now. And you can think of CBT as like exposure therapy. And if somebody has panic attacks and the pan and the thought of panic attacks makes them more anxious, which it often does, what a CBT therapist will do is will put them in a very safe environment. You know, their office on a couch, you know, gentle sort of good vibes setting, and then give them a dose of a 32% mixture of CO2 to induce a panic attack. It's just like a reflexive answer in your body and you'll have a panic attack, but it'll be in a safe setting. And the thought behind this is that you'll realize that the panic attack is just this physiological response. It's not like the end of the world. So that's a CBT method. Right. And in general, if you become more tolerant to CO2, you're going to be a less anxious human in general, less emotionally reactive. Now, at one point in this book, it's actually not in the breathing chapter, it's in the float tank chapter. But I'm with this researcher in Oklahoma who says, oh, you've been doing a lot of breath work. I sort of dabble in CO2 studies on the side.

Was that the Feinstein guy?

Justin Feinstein, Yes, Justin Feinstein at the Laureate Institute for Brain Research. And what he said was he'd been studying the effects of CO2 on people who have damaged amygdala. Now the amygdala is the fear center in the brain, and that's where fear starts in most of us. And he said, these people are generally biologically immune to fear. They just don't do it. It's like, you know, think about that guy free soloing up El K. You know, he looks down, he just doesn't have the fear responses that you and I have because of the innate biology. And actually, I don't know if Alex Hanold, the guy who did El Cap, actually does have this damage, but it's this idea. There's a center that's damaged. He doses them with CO2 and they will actually still have the panic attack because it's even a much more primal kickstarter for anxiety and panic. So he said, scott, you've been doing Wim Hof method for a while. Let me dose you with CO2. And I was like, yeah, I'd love to. You know, I do stupid stuff. So that's what I did. I sat down and he gives me this bag and I'm sitting down, I have that mask on, and he says, here's how it works. Over the next 30 minutes, I want you to press the button that releases the CO2 mixture into your mask three times. And I just want to see how you respond and, you know, and you can rate your anxiety. And there's like a way to rate, rate it. And so I'm sitting there and I'm like, oh, man, here I am. This dude has been doing breathwork for a while. I'm going to totally embarrass myself. I'm going to rip this mask off, I'm going to run out of the room. And I do not like what I've gotten myself into. But I press the button and then I have this sort of the acidic CO2 comes to my mouth and it tastes a little like an orange in a way. It goes into my body. And then instantaneously, I'm transported to the sensations that I have have at the end of a Wim Hof breath hold. And I'm like, wow, this is amazing. I'm charging down that tunnel of light again. Wow. And the doctor's looking at me is like, wait, what's happening? And I'm like, no, this is great. I love it. This is joy. This is fun. And over the next 30 minutes, actually, he cuts the test off early because over the next 15 minutes, I press that button like 11 times because I'm so interested in the sensations that I'm getting getting with CO2. And he's like, Wow. I need to study you more because you have obviously changed the way that your body responds to CO2. And the way I look at it is I've created neural Symbols to the CO2 to the stress of CO2 that has identified it differently in my brain matter somehow. And he says that this is theoretically, this could be a great way just to alter anxiety responses and alter humans.

Yeah. I wonder if, if this is something that is, is just as easily achievable via like some of these CO2. Are you familiar with like the CO2 retention tables that like a free diver will use or spear fishermen to train for breath holds? Yeah, the CO2 retention apnea tables. I'm wondering how close you could get to that level of CO2 just using something like a CO2 retention table.

Totally. I think that, I mean they're. Honestly, these are just two sides of the same thing, Wim Hof is you breathe off all your CO2 but then you're holding your breath for a long time. So then you build up CO2 tolerance. Free diving tables. There's a great thing called apnea trainer. If you want to just do some techniques, it's on your iPhone or whatever. Yeah. That will also build up CO2. It's just a different method to get to ultimately the same result. Although, and I'm going to point this out again because you did point this out earlier in the top of the episode. Never, never, never mix Wim Hof breathing with diving because you will die. Nine people have died doing this. It doesn't work for diving, but it does for anxiety. So.

Yeah, but I mean like for, for, for sitting or laying down like these CO2 tables. You know, I actually have, in chapter three of my book Boundless, I've got, I've got an oxygen retention table and a CO2 retention table and the CO2 retention table. All you're doing is, is 2 minutes of breathing and then a 2 minute breath hold, then a minute and 45 rest, then a 2 minute breath hold, Then a minute 30 rest and a 2 minute breath hold. So you're essentially just like decreasing your recovery times in between each breath hold. And an oxygen table is just kind of the opposite. If people want. I'll link in the show notes to the free diving website. The UK has a freediving website that has these retention tables that you can print. So if anybody wants to mess around with this stuff. What I found most interesting though was the idea that you actually went to a laboratory and inhaled CO2 and that A. That's something that can be used to train yourself for CO2 tolerance. And B, you experience something that shocked the researcher just based on the fact that you'd already done this much breathwork going in. So obviously, you know, you had trained your physiology without using, you know, some type of fancy laboratory equipment. And so you show, at least from an anecdotal standpoint, that you're definitely increasing your CO2 tolerance in a pretty profound way with some of these breathwork experiences. Again, and we should clarify, because I know this gets confusing for folks like the DMT stuff we talked about, the Wim HOF stuff we talked about, that's all not carbon dioxide retention. You're blowing off carbon dioxide. That's respiratory alkalosis. So blood carbon dioxide is decreasing, increasing. But then other forms of breath work, such as what Patrick McCown talks about, or Anders Olson is another guy who has a wonderful book called the Power of Breath. I think most of what they teach is CO2 retention. And I'm a firm believer that training yourself how to do both forms, one for more of a sympathetic arousal, inner fire type of approach, or a DMT release, and then the other for more relaxation and tolerance to stress, is kind of a good approach.

Approach, yeah, exactly.

Okay, so I want to get into just a couple of other things. You had an experience with what you call the truth serum, and I believe that you experienced this with your wife. And so tell me about what the truth serum is and what your experience is with that or was with that.

Sure. So what we're doing in the wedge is I'm trying to find different environments in which to inhabit that then I can control my stimulus in that. And, you know, a lot of this is external environments, like a flotation tank or the fear of catching a kettlebell. These are all things coming in from the outside. But remember, the way we experience the world comes through the synapses, right? Comes through the peripheral nerves and gets into the brain. So there's another place you can put the wedge, which is with pharmaceuticals, with psychedelics and what they call empathogens that literally alter the way you feel the world and then you respond to it that way. And so what I did is I got very interested in mdma, which is essentially the street drug Ecstasy. And maybe you've heard about the MAPS program or these psychedelic studies that are going on right now to look at the way MDMA can be used in therapy. So I was like, cool, let's jump in and see how I can use this. And what I did is my wife, who was Actually the real hero of the book, like, you know, you hear me talking, but my wife is like, partner with me in almost all the crazy stuff that I did. And the miracle of the book is that our relationship survived is even stronger now because of it. But what we did is we found two, two therapists in my local area who had never seen MDMA used before, but they're couples therapists and we took MDMA in their presence and there's a whole protocol with how we did it and how we found the drugs, it was sketchy, and how we tested the drugs, it was less sketchy. And then we're sitting there and what MDMA does in a therapeutic setting is that makes you non reactive. It makes everything that you hear or feel come in, in the most positive possible way. And it's just the way the chemical works. Now again, results do vary. It's a chemical and people can have a variety of interactions. But in general, this is what happens on mdma. And what we were able to do is talk about very difficult things in our relationship. Relationship, but no reactivity. And to give an example, and this is not something that we said necessarily, but was, I could say to my, my wife, I hate your mother. And she would be like, instead of usually, you know, I hate your mother, right? And you get in a fight, she'd be like, oh, I understand, tell me why. And then you'd have a long discussion about that. And the therapist who saw us doing, you know, it takes about three hours to do this, they were like, it was like watching, watching like six or eight months of couples therapy take place in just three hours because you were just hearing each other, you're really feeling each other, you're totally empathetic to each other and then you're looking for solutions. And those solutions then stuck afterwards. I think that MDMA therapy is going to be a revolution once we finally clear the FDA protocols, which honestly, it looks like it's doing it right now.

Well, I mean, a big thing we need is for, for ravers, you know, who are largely using this as, you know, Ecstasy, Molly or Mandy, to, to kind of back off and, and for people to begin to realize, you know, just like, I mean, honestly, I feel the same about cannabis, ayahuasca, dmt, anything else, the therapeutic use and potential of this. And you know, just to clarify, like, like I'm a born again Christian, right? Like, I'm, I'm not the kind of guy would expect to respect or to utilize these type of drugs, but I think everything was created for A noble purpose for a good purpose. And that can be bastardized or used incorrectly. I feel the same way about mdma. And, you know, I've personally had, you know, four separate times with my wife when we've used it or variants of it and had very similar experience to you in terms of the trust, the connectiveness, and most importantly, the sticking of the integration, like the sticking of what my wife and I call the magic. It's just like we don't fight anymore. We don't argue. We have a very, you know, a trusting relationship with each other and our house is just like steeped in love. And, you know, I'm not convinced that a drug or a chemical is the only thing that can do that. And I think that integration is important and I think that there's a lot of other deep spiritual work that needs to be done to really ensure a relationship is as rock solid as possible. But yes, this so called truth serum, as you refer to it in your book, it is some pretty powerful shit when it comes to enhancing the level of a relationship.

Sure. I find it very interesting that you say you're a born again Christian. I didn't know that. But what is very fascinating is at the end of the book, or we do the ayahuasca. Ayahuasca experience. Right. But did you know that in Brazil and Peru and Colombia, ayahuasca is part of the Christian tradition there? Like it is integrated into the rituals and the ceremonies in not all the churches down there, but there's a whole revivalist movement around ayahuasca in South America right now.

Yeah, there's a Native American church up here that utilizes ayahuasca. I haven't visited them or taken part in any of their ceremonies, but apparently part of the Christian sector of the Native American ceremonies up here around Washington state also incorporates some elements of ayahuasca as well. So, you know, I think some of these plants can indeed, and I realize this is very controversial in the Christian sectors, but I think many of them, when used responsibly, can bring you closer to God or put you just like a deep state of meditation into a spiritual state where you really are conversing with God or speaking with God on a much deeper level. I do not think that you need drugs to go to church, you need drugs to pray, or you need drugs to get more out of the Bible. But they can certainly, in a very intriguing way, enhance your spirituality when used properly and also when not dependent on as a crutch. It's not like every Time you get go to church, you got to take shrooms. But it is really, really interesting and I wasn't aware of that with South America and Christianity in South America, but it's quite fascinating.

Yeah, it's interesting. Terence McKenna, who is sort of the guy who founded the idea called psychonauts, like these people who use different psychedelic chemicals to have transcendent experiences, he has a very interesting theory which I find personally very compelling, is that the roots of religion probably come from psychedelic experiences with our Paleolithic ancestors. Right. Because we know that in the climates where humans first emerged, we were hanging around environments where mushrooms would just grow from ruminant poop because that's where psilocybin mushrooms grow. They grow in cow and horse poop. Right. And, and, and he says it is inevitable that humans would have walked around and seen these mushrooms and likely that some of them ate them. And if they ate them, and since we know they had the same biology that we do, they would have had similar experiences as we do. And since most people experience some very powerful hallucinations, right, that are obviously are interestingly similar between people of God, of death, of coming to terms with psychological things, he believes that this is actually the founding of religion. This is the founding of how we started really thinking about things greater than us and maybe connecting to those things. And you take or leave his theory as you like, but I find it very interesting, very compelling. The only problem with it is that it has the worst name in the entire world, world of, of anthropological theories, which is called the Stoned Ape theory, which is, I think, why it went nowhere.

Right? Yeah, yeah, it's a horrible, horrible semantics, but it does, it does make sense. And you know, again, that's a super duper controversial topic amongst Christians because there is, there's some thought that, like when, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden initially and ate of this tree, of the fruit of good and evil, that perhaps that was a mushroom, right, or psilocybin or something, something that opened up their senses so deeply that they had this deep knowledge of good and evil and that's, that's why God didn't want them to consume that. And I, I, I personally don't think that's the case. I think what, you know, whatever, what, what, whatever they, they ate was something that that kind of humankind got banned from for the rest of all time. And you, you know, we give, we get into the weeds on that. But ultimately I think that the takeaway message here is when used responsibly A lot of these compounds, whether synthetic or natural, have some pretty impressive effects, especially on something like relationships. So I just found that part of your book absolutely fascinating. You. First of all, you intrigued me because every time you put out a book, it just seems to be these new dives into really cool areas. And I'm curious if you could perhaps open the kimono for folks and let people know if there are certain other things you're looking into now or little biohacks you've begun to implement or things you're keeping your eye on for a future title or what's next for you.

So the thing about the Wedge is that this book is not the 10 techniques to make you super awesome. This is not a cookbook to say if you just throw kettlebells and take some. Some drugs and do some breath work, you're going to be super awesome. These are all things that have worked for me that I have enjoyed, that I've gotten something out of. And I think that people can try them. But what I'm trying to do is put people, make them aware that when they do any practice. Because the wedge is everywhere, right? It's in the dmv. It's when you're driving a car. It's when you're doing. When you're assaulted soldier in combat, like, you're always pushing yourself against stress. So I'm trying to give people tools in which they can then generalize this journey and make it their own. Because, you know, you don't want to just follow me around like that. No one does. No one wants to be me. But you can find that in your own life. You can use them anywhere. So, you know, I got 10 things I do in this book, but you know where I will go next. I mean, I think that there'd be really something cool to do with sound because I didn't cover sound in the book. And I think that sound can totally. You know, it's this stimulus that is primal. It can make you connected to people. It can modulate your heartbeat. It can go so deep. And I just didn't do that in the book. Maybe that's gonna be a one off that I do next.

Just a second. You're gonna hear my voice get faint. Cause I'm gonna walk around a bookshelf. I want to tell you a book I just read. A sound medicine by Colreat Chowdhury. An md how to use the ancient science of sound to heal the body and the mind. Have you. Have you seen that one?

Never seen it, but Chowdhury great.

Yeah, yeah. It's more didactic. I would love to see a title like this written from a more immersive journalist standpoint because his is more written as a physician would write a book about sound math medicine. But for somebody like you getting out there and just experiencing all this stuff for yourself as the type of writer that you are, I think that would be fascinating. I'd love to see you do something on sound medicine.

Yeah, I mean I think it's in the lineup. Right. So sound I'm interested in. There's something called Shaking Medicine which is interesting. It's like when your nervous system shakes and you sort of go back and forth at the edge of a shiver, but with anxiety. There's some something called shaking medicine in the Native Americans tradition also called. I think it's also called tre something release. And I think there's something there. I don't know what but I will look into this. I'm also interested in sleep. What can we do in dream states to maybe alter the way our habits work? So these are the three that I'm playing with. I do not know if these books will ever get read written but certainly the guideposts are all the things that I'm doing in this book. It's creating sensations, creating stimulus and then trying to chart a course against or with those stimulus to do things. You know, I talk about the wedge as creating space between stimulus and response. And that's really easy to visualize with Wim Hof. Right. You're suppressing your shift. But the other way the wedge can work is actually removing that wedge so that there is no thought, it just happens. And that's a flow state. That's what we're doing with kettlebells where we remove the wedge entirely and then you're just acting automatically. And I think there's just a lot of places that we can insert these wedges to make our lives better and more interesting. And I'm heavily down this road so we'll see where it all goes.

I love it. And I have two last thoughts about what you just said before we part ways. The first is for the shaking piece, I think all you need to do is just get a mini trampoline and that's about it. That's a fast track to the shaking. And you know what? I just in part. But I actually jump up and down my mini trampoline almost every morning now and I feel amazing. And so I think there's something to like the Tai Chi esque full body shaking and the lymph fluid from the rebounding. But. But I am familiar with this idea of traumatic release through shaking. And it's something that I discussed with a previous podcast guest of mine who does this and who also related to the second thing you brought up, has cracked the code on some really intense lucid dreaming principles and is able to control his dreams in a pretty profound way and who has even appeared in my dreams. And when I call him up the next, the next day, he knows he's been there. His name is.

No way.

Yeah, his name is Drew Canoli and I've interviewed him and I'll put a link to my interview with him in the show notes. But if you look at my interview with him, we don't get deep into the lucid dreaming and the shaking, but he would probably be a guy you'd want to go hang out with for a day or two if you write this book. He's in San Diego. Great. Yeah.

Awesome.

Yeah. So, wow. Okay, everybody, first of all, we discuss a lot of stuff. We discuss, discussed all these other books, Scott's book, my previous podcast with him, CO2 retention tables, Epitalon, Blue Lotus Oil. I've just been taking notes this whole time. So anything you guys want to take a deep dive into, go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com the Wedge, that's BenGreenfieldFitness.com The Wedge. And I will put it all there then. Also, you can leave your questions, your comments, and your feedback over there. I'd love to hear what you guys think about discussions with fascinating people like Scott. And Scott, thank you for writing this book and for giving your time and coming back on the show, man.

Great. Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And also I've got a website, Scott Carney.com I'm on all the other places. I'm sure you're going to have links in your show notes to all of those spots too.

So.

Yeah, and I really hope that people dig deep. Right. You know, we've got one life to live. Let's go feed, feel things deeply and see what happens.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Well, Scott, you're doing it and I appreciate you coming on the show. So, folks, until next time, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Scott Carney signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have an amazing week. Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the show notes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful Ben Recommends page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormones, sleep digestion, fat loss, performance, and plenty more. Please also know that all the links, all the promo codes that I mentioned during this and every episode help to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. So when you listen in, be sure to use the links in the show notes. Use the promo codes that I generate because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.