How To Get Into Hunting, Build Hunting Fitness, The Most Challenging Hunts & More!

Let's talk hunting with my buddy, Mark Warnke. Let's do this. In this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Show.

If you eat meat, you're one of two things. You're either the murderer or you're the accomplice. And you have the same responsibility. If you don't choose to participate in acknowledging that inner part of you that wants to hunt, then celebrate. That I do, I guess, is what I ask. Celebrate rather than condemn. Remain curious rather than judgmental. I absolutely believe that the reverence that shows up from that and the confusing display of that reverence, my son's confusion, he didn't know whether to be happy, sad, or glad. And he probably experienced all in 3.2 seconds.

He's an expert in human performance and nutrition, voted America's top personal trainer and one of the globe's most influential people in health and fitness. His show provides you with everything you need to optimize physical and mental performance. He is Ben Greenfield.

Power, speed, mobility, balance, whatever it is for you that the natural movements get out there. When you look at all the studies done, studies that have shown the greatest efficacy.

All the information you need in one place right here, right now on the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast.

Hey, folks, it's Ben Greenfield here. And actually, if you've been paying attention to the Ben Greenfield Instagram page lately over@instagram.com BenGreenfieldFitness, you might have noticed that I just returned from a big Axis deer hunt down in Texas. And before that I was hunting whitetail deer here in my home state of Washington. Before that, I was down in the mountains of Colorado doing an elk hunt down there. And you may also have heard me talk before about this whole Train to Hunt thing, how I spent the summer competing in Train to Hunt, bow hunting and meat packing and obstacle course competing. And now I've got my eyes set on everything from safari hunting in Africa to moose and bear hunting in British Columbia. It's just a passion of mine that I didn't grow up doing, but that I'm very, very interested in. And it's really becoming a part of my life these days. And we had podcast episode called Are Hunters the Fittest People in the World? And in that episode, I interview Train to Hunt founder Kenton Claremont. And then we also had an episode called how to Build Primal Fitness and Endurance by Hunting, an interview with the Bow Hunting Triathlete, in which you learned how an Ironman triathlon competitor combines hunting with training for endurance sports. And I'll link to all these previous podcasts if you just go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com Got hunts? That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com Gothunts but with the growing popularity of sports like train to hunt and bow hunting and even seemingly a growing interest in the ancestral practice of persistence hunting, which we may get a chance to talk about today, I figured it was high time to introduce you to the guy who has not only organized a couple of the hunts that I just mentioned and that I've been on, but also a guy who's one of the world's leading authorities on finding good places to hunt, on building hunting fitness, on creating challenging hunting scenarios and much more. So if you want to tap into the primal practice of challenging your body in the wilderness and hunting and gathering your own tasty meat, even if, even if you're like me and you didn't grow up hunting, this episode is going to be a pretty cool listen for you. My guest is Mark Warnkey. Mark is a friend of mine. He's the owner of Gothunts.com and Outdoors International. He's a hunting consultant. He's a family man. He's an avid bow hunter, a mule deer fanatic, a fly fisherman. He's a best selling author of a few different books that we'll link to in the show notes. And Mark has global hunting experience with outfitters in Canada and Africa and New Zealand all over the world. He understands what makes a quality hunt. He knows how to find challenging hunts. He's competed right beside me in these trained hunt competitions. So he knows how to build hunting fitness and he's a wealth of information when it comes to all things hunting. So Mark, welcome to the show.

So glad to be here. Ben sounds, I'm excited.

Awesome. And you know, you and I just recently got done hanging out down in Texas for about five days down there in Texas hill country, which was quite a blast. And when we got to talking and decided it would be kind of cool to have you on the show and talk about some of this stuff. And one of the first things I want to ask you, Mark, is how you got into all this. Like what's the story of got hunts or is it got hunts or is it Outdoors International? What's the difference between those?

Well, our company name is Outdoors international and our URL, our website is gothunts.com and because it's, you know, kind of a, you know, you need to really pronunciate that clearly for people to get it all spelled. It's got H u n t s. So got hunts kind of like the slogan got melt. But anyway, so that's the URL and, and you know, of course you can find us at, you know, outdoors forward slash international and blah blah, all that stuff too. So you can find us however you want to look for us there. But that's the story behind it. And the, I guess the answer to your question is how did, how did it all start? Honestly, it all started as an eight year old bumbling behind my dad and having him. I still remember walking up the hill and cracking a shot off at a deer which he missed and then being intrigued to see that whole process of him and then taking what he taught me, which was kind of what I would say in a very respectful way with my father, was that he was a not a fair weather hunter, but just a hunter who didn't take it to the next level and being fanatical like it that I did. And I just kind of took what he taught with me and ran with that once I kind of kind of got out underneath that home umbrella and I remember one time my dad said to me, he said, mark, what are you going to do? I mean, he was almost out of disappointment with me in my mid-20s. What are you going to do? And I said, well, I'm planning on making a name for myself someday in the hunting and fishing world. And this is a part of that process. Well, I'd take six months off a year for 15 years and all I did is bow hunt and fly fish the world. And dad's still there tapping his foot on the table saying, you know, when are you going to do something? When you grow up. And now God Hunts Outdoors International is the manifestation of that. So that's kind of the, the roots of it is that I'm just a fanatical hunter. And, and so a quick answer too is also that at a young age, at 22, I got sober. I figured out quicker than most people that drinking didn't work for me and I kind of gave up drinking and I took up hunting to the next level. You know, in some ways you trade addictions and I did that to that whole next level that then taught me what that excellence on all the parameters are, what that top 5% that you have to spend hours and days and weeks and months in the woods to truly figure out that top 5% I figured out during those years and the US wasn't enough. I needed other countries and I used hunting as an excuse to experience other cultures. It's one of the true blessings is you genuinely get to know People across a campfire and hiking in the woods and sweating and, you know, eating mountain house at high elevation. That's how you get to know somebody. Every other way that you kind of experience places in the world is through being a tourist. And yeah, you never genuinely get to know somebody. It's probably like you, I mean, you get to genuinely know cultures because you're, you know, puking your guts out, running alongside a guy from another country and that's exactly.

Yeah, you know what I mean? Swimming through stem stagnant water in Thailand and protracting amoebas that hit you halfway through the marathon in a triathlon and cause you to crap your pants. It's really a good way to experience the world and all it has to offer. Right. So speaking of experiencing the world, Mark, in terms of adventures and all these places you've seen over the years, not just hunting in the United States, but also internationally, what's one of the more thrilling places that you've been to hunt?

You know, I mean, for so many misunderstood reasons. I'll say for so many misunderstood reasons. Africa. And Africa I love for the hunting, but I love more for the culture. It's just an amazing place to go to, to experience in a real way in a sweating, working hard, crawling through the brush, getting bloody, getting dirty, wiping your butt in the woods with a tracker who literally cooks off of charcoal, poops in a hole and has a house with no doors or windows on it. If he has a house who greets you with a genuineness and a service mindedness and a happiness and contentedness with life, that is an example to me of what a weak, sissy schmuck I am and what I complain about.

That's awesome. So how do you even find a place? Like when you say you want to hunt in Africa, what's the process? I mean, how do you actually find a place to hunt over there and make a connection? Like if somebody's listening in and in a minute here, I actually want to ask you about the newbie who maybe just wants to learn how to hunt in their own backyard, but say somebody's listening in and they want to embark upon an adventure like that, how do you actually find a place that you can trust where you know you're not going to die out in the African wilderness?

Okay, so in answer to Africa, Africa is a very, especially South Africa. I describe it as America with roads and shanty towns and people walking down the side of the freeway with big things on top of their head. Right. So it's Africa but it doesn't, it's not like how people imagine kind of the scary or the disorganized part of Africa that you're going to find further north. The other thing is, is that you're out of the malaria, malaria zone being, you know, on the southern tip. And so that's kind of convenient not to have to take the noxious drugs that you have to, to, to be north of there. Now I'm not running down north of there because that's an experience people should have too. It's just I usually like to kind of stick their toe in the pool before I throw them in the water. And their toe in the pool is South Africa. South Africa is extremely affordable. It's most affordable place in the world to hunt right now. And the ratio of the rand to the dollar is currently 16 to 1. So never before, like I've ever seen it is it more affordable than to hunt in South Africa right now. So like you can go down there for a five animal, seven day all inclusive, sneaking around on these huge concessions for like 6,500 bucks. Which that's the price of one single elk hunt in Colorado for the same thing. Right. So and tickets over there right now are dirty cheap. I mean it's like 1200 bucks to get there. So Africa is a really cool place on a cultural level and it's also a very target rich environment which you're going to relate to in Texas. Right. If, if I take a new hunter. And so I'm going to intertwine both your questions with that. If I'm going to take a new hunter and I'm going to try to teach them how to be successful with archery tackle. And I don't advise that new people start off with a bow. I don't. Everybody has kind of this judgment of rifle hunting, which isn't fair. It's still hard. But they have kind of this natural judgment of rifle hunting that makes them think the only ethical way to harvest game is with a bow. And I would tell them it's almost irresponsible to have your first hunt be a bow hunt because who are we talking about here? Who's important? It's not you, it's not me, it's the animal. He deserves an ethical harvest. And they're going to be pooping in their pants with a bow at 20 yards and do stupid things. It's too hard to control emotion. I mean, you saw it. I mean it's on kind of some of those highest orders of exercise and trying to quell Emotion to help you to make good decisions. That fever that shows up in that moment, that fight or flight is very basic human stuff.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we were even doing a lot of blind hunting down there in a couple scenarios. And not Africa, but Texas. A lot of people may not realize this. I didn't realize it until we went down there. But they've been introducing different species since the 1930s into Texas. And there's all these crazy species you never see anywhere else. That Axis deer that I shot, which is widely considered to be one of the tastiest game meats on the face of the planet, I can't wait to get the tenderloins and the back strap and everything else back up here to my house so I can start cooking this winter. But also, you know, for example, a black buck, another really kind of cool looking creature, you know, came about 90 yards from me during that hunt. And it was pretty much every bone in my body holding back to, to take a shot at that with my bow because, you know, I'm not confident that I can hit an animal in the vitals at 90 yards and, and make an ethical shot. So, yeah, it can be tricky when things are kind of few and far between like that. But what you're saying is in Africa it's similar or there are, there's a plethora of animals.

Well, so, so yes, animal density is something that they can kind of be in control of. And I think this is something that your listening audience needs to understand in a way that I think so. 10% of people, less than 10%. It's actually 7. 7% of people in America hunt. Okay. 10%, I believe, will never thumbs up what we do. There's people in, on, on one end or the other, very polarized. We're very biased as a group to what we do. And the top is very biased towards anti hunting. The middle 80% is who I'm interested in having here, a clear message about what a true genuine hunter is. And a true genuine hunter has concern first for the animal. Right. In a lover of animals, and that's what people misunderstand about hunters, is that. And I get it, it's a paradox. How can I be an animal lover that when I sell one of my goats, and I know this is going to sound silly, but when I sell my two goats, Duke and Mooch, my two favorite pack goats, when I sell Duke and Mooch, I'm going to cry because I love them. They're animals that I've grown very, very close to. And And I'll cry when I sell them because they're not the right fit for my string. And it's heartbreaking for me that person that has that level of love for a goat then can go out and jump up and down and yell yahoo. When I kill this beautiful and majestic, amazing, God sent, pure white mountain goat at 9,000ft. I get that that's a paradox. I get that it doesn't make sense for the people that don't understand. And that middle 80%, we need them to understand too, because at least half of those guys are either a hunter or a gatherer. And if they're a gatherer by nature, I believe then they have the same accountability because they now have to know a hunter that's going to bring them meat. And they're just as accountable. Right. It was said so well by that guy on, you know, whatever. There's a reality TV show about sustenance living in Alaska, and he says it so well. He says if you eat meat, you're one of two things. You're either the murderer or you're the accomplice. And you have the same responsibility. And it's true. Yet in today's society, especially here in America, we're at least three generations away. We're only three from. We had to know somebody personally that would kill something for us to survive just three generations ago. And now we're clear to the point where on my Facebook page I will get people who will say ludicrous things like, why don't you go to the store and get meat? Why don't you just go do that and leave those animals alone? Really? No animal got left alone. We are omnivores, and you and I choose to harvest our own meat. So I apologize, I got on a bit of a rant there. But it's so important that the middle 80%, if you don't choose to participate in acknowledging that inner part of you that wants to hunt, then celebrate that I do, I guess, is what I ask. Right. Celebrate rather than condemn. Remain curious rather than judgmental. And those are those aspects that keep us all curious. Me curious about them too. Right. It may make me look at something differently as a result of curiosity rather than judgment. So in answer to the original question is that new hunter, that new hunter needs to experience the harvest of life to the dinner table so they can have a genuine appreciation for even that steak that they order at Sizzler will never be looked at the same way again if they choose to do that. And you are an example of that. Unexpressed hunter that's kind of been percolating for years. And now all of a sudden you're in that right position where you're being essentially in some ways tutored to let that blossom flower.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, totally. And I know there's probably people wanting to jump into the podcast right now screaming about dietary individuality and how some people do thrive on a less omnivorous diet. Right. Like vegans versus meat eaters. And I know you and I had a little bit of a discussion about this when we were driving back from. When we were driving to the Austin airport, back from the hunt in Texas. And one thing I was talking about is, yeah, there can be some people that actually do better on less meat. And that just comes down to genetics. So, for example, you get some people who genetically don't make enough of something called methyl. It's called methyl. And those people have to be very, very careful with a high amount of what's called folate intake from dark leafy greens and vegetables and stuff like that, because they actually don't do well with a high folate diet. It actually can wreak some havoc metabolically. And those people are called undermethylators. You can get that genetically tested. And an under methylator actually feels really, really crappy unless they have meat in their diet, or at least fish. But you're going to have a lot higher levels of methyl donors and methyl groups in like steak and beef and wild game and stuff like that. But then you also do have some people who are what are called overmethylators. They, they thrive on folates because they have a bunch of methyl already in their system. And folate, which you get from like vegetables and stuff like that, it's actually a very powerful demethylating agent, meaning that it helps with all this, this very, very high levels of methyl in the diet. And some of that's, that's a very, very large part of it is genetic based. But what it comes down to is, you know, if you're listening in, yeah, there may be certain people who do better with meat. There may be certain people who don't need as much meat and do better with a high intake of vegetables. And frankly, in America, for example, where we're a big melting pot, it varies quite a bit. But to return to your original point, Mark, Yeah, I think a lot of people who have not tapped into that primal ancestral practice of getting out there and rather than relying upon someone else killing and harvesting meat, for them going out and scratching that primal Itch of getting their own meat. I know when I started doing it, it was a completely different feeling. Everything from the sense of responsibility to a deeper sense of an ethical feeling for the planet. A deeper sense of gratitude for the meal that you were eating. A deeper sense of interest in preparing that meal. Well, when you've actually gone through all of the labor of harvesting that animal yourself. Yeah, it's night, night and day for people who want to get into hunting, Mark. Because some people listening in and they're like, yeah, I'd love to hunt, but I'm whatever. I'm like Ben and I didn't grow up doing it right. My parents didn't hunt, maybe I live in the city, etc. Etc. Where do you recommend people start if they're listening and they just want to get into hunting? Right.

Well, then I'll liken that to my experience with Tucker. Right. So my son that was on the hunt with us in Texas and so I'm going to counsel you to go into what I would call a fairly target rich environment. A heavily dense population of animals with a lot of critters. We're going to talk about your physical ability because these hunts can be everything from a 10 to a 1 on physical condition necessity and at the same time kind of budget and all the other things that are going to go in. And what I'm going to end up doing is matching you up with the right outfitter for the right experience and very often based on budget. Two first really good hunts are elk and deer out west. Because I think it has the physical condition component to it, especially to your listening audience because they're mountainous hunts. It has a cover and country and a real deal feel where you're in expansive areas where free ranging game is. And yet we can still kind of semi control the success rate by putting a rifle in your hands and training you well and having you be in what I would call a target rich environment. Because I don't think people can prepare themselves for the necessity of controlling emotion till you're there. And that happens through rote muscle memory. Right. Through the ability to practice enough to where when you're pooping in your pants and it's time to go, you're still making good decisions. Right. And when I say pooping in your pants, I guess what I mean is that that fight or flight stuff comes up so much. I remember Jacob, my first son, after he harvested his first animal, said to me, he goes, dad, why am I shaking? He had never quivered before in elation, excitement Any of those different things and he had to sit down because he felt unsteady and it was really confusing to his little seven year old brain to understand why that was. Well, it was his first dose of adrenaline.

Yeah. It's a different form of adrenaline though, I think, because I've competed in crazy events and I've crossed the finish line of crazy events and I've done some pretty big adrenaline rush type of activities, especially in the obstacle racing and adventure sports world. And it is a totally different feeling bombing down a slope on your mountain bike versus actually harvesting an animal. I think it hits something more primal when it comes to perhaps there's even like, you know, I don't want to get all woo woo, but almost like a spiritual dimension, right? Where you know, there is kind of like, and I won't deny this, you know, the loss of a life involved with something like hunting and for you to be responsible for or take part in that, it's. It triggers something different.

Oh, there definitely is. I think to disacknowledge energy flow among living things is to be ignorant, right? I mean, it exists. Energy flow among living things definitely exists. And to think that when you're snuffing that life out and that there's not some type of energetic flow and consequence and things to acknowledge in what's going on. I absolutely believe that the reverence that shows up from that and the confusing display of that reverence, right? I mean, my son's confusion, he didn't know whether to be happy, sad or glad. And he probably experienced all in 3.2 seconds. Right? And I can say the same thing of myself. Even though I've harvested, you know, I'm approaching 100, I don't, I don't count. So I'm, I'm just throwing that number out there. It could be 70, it could be 125, I have no idea. But I'm approaching around 100 animals in my life that I've harvested with, with my bow, all of which I've eaten. It is one of those things that is kind of still as scary and as emotional and as everything. So much so that I still make stupid decisions and miss animals because I'm so rattled by it. All right? And it's just that I've trained myself so well with shooting on a daily basis every day that when I'm rattled, I'm still making smart choices, you know, by muscle memory. So to get back to your. What, what do new people do? They call me. Because the cool part is, is with exploration of what their intent is. What's your purpose? Is your purpose to gather meat? Is your purpose to have an adventure while you're gathering meat? Is your purpose to celebrate. And this is one that'll just dig some of your listeners in the guts, but it's real to celebrate your animal by. By putting a memory on the wall which is its skin and its head and its antlers, which has for human beings for centuries and now all of a sudden we think it's wrong in some ways and I don't get it, but I get it. So whatever that goal is for you, I'm going to help you to achieve that goal by matching you up with the right personality with someone in the world or here in the United States. And guys need to know hunts kind of really start out, I guess at pig hunts, which is a hunt that people commonly will go to as a first stab. And I get that. But pigs are loud dyers. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And it's not necessarily something I would want a gentle hearted new hunter to experience their first time is that the animal that they're killing make noise. There's just something that's more shocking about that.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, I mean it's something screams when you stick it. It feels a lot more real and it's a lot more emotional. So I don't know if I'd always pick that as people's first. A deer kind of dies quietly and it runs off and it's a kind of a quieter, serene thing, even though it's just as quote unquote bloodletting and violent as the other. But in the same token, you know, we're going to explore that and we're going to look at what you want and what you're looking for and I'm going to have those options for you both domestically and internationally. And really you need to plan on kind of the cheapest hunt we're going to talk about. It's going to cost about 1000 bucks. The average is going to be probably 4 to 5000 bucks and the sky's the limit. I mean.

Yeah, well, I didn't use it. I didn't use a guide when I learned, I didn't even use a mentor. Right. Like I tell a lot of people, find somebody like a family friend or someone who has experience hunting and just go approach them and talk to them about perhaps accompanying them or them them accompanying you. You know. The way I learned how to do it though was I bought a gun and I watched YouTube videos. That is How I learned. And literally, like the first animal I field dressed was with a video and a knife out in the forest. And if I could go back and do it all over again, I would love to have a human being right there with me and have it be in a little bit more controlled setting and learn a little bit. But some people, I'll be honest, a thousand bucks. Some folks may want to figure out a different way. But what I can tell you is that the way that I did it is not necessarily the way that I would recommend people learn to hunt. Because I fought an uphill battle learning. And since I started kind of hanging out with Mark and go on some of his hunts, it's a lot nicer when you have a guide, somebody who knows the area, somebody who can help teach you the ropes. It's not as though you're sitting back on a couch and somebody is hunting for you. It's just as hard. You just have a lot more knowledge right there to help you out. And by the way, for folks listening in, because I know we're going to get this Mark, and I don't have a financial affiliation. He's just a friend. I don't have an affiliate link for got hunts or anything like that. I'm not trying to get you guys to pay for hunts to put money in my pocket. Mark is just somebody who has been a wealth of knowledge for me personally, and I wanted to get him on the show to talk to you guys a little bit about hunting. And Mark, you are also. You have delved quite a bit into the world of fitness. I think at one point we were at a train to hunt competition. We were having lunch afterwards, and you were saying you spent several years immersed in some pretty hard living when it came to challenging your fitness and sleep deprivation and everything like that. I forget what the actual work was that you were involved with. But can you expound on that a little bit? Like how you became kind of hard as the case may be when it comes to fitness?

Well, so it's all going to root back to kind of my alcoholic ways. Right. So having an addictive personality means that I only really know two points on a pendulum. It's either on or off. It's either 1 or 10. And because I only know 10, for me, when whatever's worth doing is worth doing to an excess, if anything, I've had to temper that stuff. So if I'm not burning, then I'm not doing. And so for me, on a fitness level and on a physical level, my thing was Way back when I was. When I was really getting into hunting at the next level, and I was fresh and I was raw, I was spending six days a week hunting birds. So I was a hardcore chukar hunter. And chukars are a bird that lives in the mountains. And I had multiple dogs. And the reason I had multiple dogs, if they hunted with me every day, I couldn't keep weight on them. They would get too thin. I would get too thin. I mean, I was doing, you know, anywhere from 8 to 15 miles in Chukar country, which is steep, gnarly, rocky stuff six days a week. I only let myself have one day off a week because I was that adamant about learning them to the next level. And, you know, needless to say, my freezer was full of chukar. And I learned in my young twenties what. What I was capable of and how much country I could really see on a daily basis. So that was some of it in. In early stuff, you know, I was a collegiate athlete and played football and baseball, neither of them that great. At the collegiate level. I was Division 3. I was nothing special, but I was there because I had work ethic, I had heart. Right?

That's.

That's what. If you want to know what makes me a successful hunter, it's. It's that I don't give up. I give up later than other people do. Yeah, I. I give up. I don't give up. And so because I'm there when Mother Nature chooses to give me that opportunity instead of the other guy who's given up and gone home, I'm that guy that used to really embrace. In fact, I didn't think I was having fun unless I was getting my kicked out there. If I wasn't burning shoe leather and I wasn't losing weight and I wasn't absolutely flummoxed and uncomfortable and all those other things that we can get into on these massive expanses of public land we have here in Idaho, then I didn't think I was hunting. My kicked. I didn't think I was hunting.

I had to hurt it. That's what I thought too. When it came to physical fitness, I always wanted to do spot and stock elk or chase deer through whitetail country out here. And I realized there's a whole different mental realm to hunting, too. When a couple weeks ago, we were in Texas one day I spent a good eight hours. There were probably almost 40 hours just over those five days just standing still. You know, I had one day where it was just eight hours sitting there, teeth chattering on the frozen tundra with a wind chill of about 19, which adds up when you're not able to move and you're just sitting there staring, staring and looking for the animal for eight hours in a row. You want to talk about moving meditation and transcendental meditation and box breathing and all these things that people do for 30 minutes or 45 minutes or an hour at a time, or these silent meditation retreats. Try hunting either either like tree stand or blind hunting in like a cold, harsh environment. And there, there's a whole different level of mental fitness there too.

There is. It takes us super hardcore. I mean, us western hunters love to throw the tree stand hunters, you know, in the Midwest and the east and you know, under the bus because all they do is sit in a tree holy bucket.

It's hard. I used to do that too. I used to scoff at tree stand hunting until I did it and I realized, wow, you got be mentally alert and aware. Eyes, ears, sight, smell, everything. And you also have to be able to withstand the elements for as long as you're out there. Yeah, it's a whole different ball of wax. Now in terms of when you're out guiding folks, you obviously get a lot of people who come to you for hunts. What are the biggest holes that you see in the fitness of people who show up, who wants to get their first elk or their first deer and they aren't necessarily wanting to stand hunt or blind hunt, but they want to get out there in the hills. What do you see as the biggest weaknesses?

Well, it's multi day capability, right? Everybody can go out and go burn hard for one day. It's the question is what kind of shape are you getting up on day four? Right. Because that's a nutritional, that's a spiritual, that's an emotional, then that's a mental battle. But physically, if you're battling it, physical too, right? I mean, it's hard to stay nourished at high elevation and be burning as many calories as you do per day and getting your ass kicked emotionally because you're failing all kinds of those different things that play in. The one thing that a lot of people that are not from the west don't get is just the simple elevation difference. They understand it, but they don't understand it till they're on the side of a shale slope at 9,000ft, completely out of breath on day two, saying, I don't know if I can do this tomorrow.

Right? Yeah, that's a really good point. It's easy for people to conceptualize maybe getting on a treadmill, walking uphill for a couple hours with their pack on, or going for a long hike with all their equipment. But that was one of the first things I encountered in that Colorado hunt was I can do this all day long, but then you throw the unknown and the day after day in there. We're on day before. I didn't plan on this, but we wound up sleeping under a tarp at 13,000ft because that was where the elk were at, not back at our camp. And that's after a couple miles of hiking at really, really high elevation. And then you got to be ready to open your eyes at 5am, sneak out and spend another four hours on foot, sleep deprived with whatever water and food you might have access to. And you start to throw all those unknown variable into the equation. I think that's what gets most people is not necessarily the fitness, but all the other little things that happen that throw you for a loop and then you throw those in day after day. If you really truly are going out on a multi day hunt.

Yeah, well. And some of the guys that are in the gals in your audience right now that are listening still with really perked up ears are probably the same people that are experiencing that second quarterback through the reality TV show industry right now that seems to really be fascinated with hunters and sustenance liver and those sorts of things and survivalists. What I would say to them is the same thing to you. If you actually pay attention to those people on those shows, they almost all end up crying now.

Why?

They're not sissies. These are tough people who are being injected into an environment and what I tell clients to be ready for and what I tell myself to be ready for. And this is something that I think is worthy of diving in a little bit deeper because I have some questions for you here. I've really gone into this whole fat high fat intake diet and I wanted to ask, ask you earlier how that related to the methylates and all that different stuff. But I have become starved of fat because I eat it all the time now, right? And because I eat it all the time, it seems like my body keeps asking for more, right? And I'm thin and I'm lean and my diastolic and all that other stuff that I probably shouldn't even talk about because I'm not really an authority on it. But both of my levels are below 100. I'm as fit as fiddle, right? At the same time, I eat a ton of fat and a ton of animal fat. And one of the things that I guess I don't want to get off too much on a rabbit hole. But this year's the first year where I ever took and it was because I had the goats with me. I have £300 in goat power now that can haul in good food. Right.

You experience and that you can milk while you're out there. Right, right.

And I'm milking my one goat as well. We get about a half gallon a day, which is, you know, the perfect food. So. So with all that stuff and now being able to experience the backcountry at high elevation, chasing bulls, what I noticed is the same thing that I noticed that it's a fall down for my clients is the same thing for me on all levels, mentally, spiritually, physically, nutritionally. I am becoming more fragile every day I'm there. And when I say I'm fragile, it means I'm fragile to the wanting to give up. I can't take any more part of it. It's less fun than it is fun now. And now it's about goal sets and it's about resiliency and it's about mindfulness of why I'm there and what I'm trying to achieve. Is the only reason I'm still staying there. If I just wanted to have fun and be comfortable, I would have left probably on day two. On most trips there is work to this. It is hard what we do and in the way that I choose to do it on a personal level. But one of the the best ways. Ben, and here's where my question is that I've ever found to be less fragile is that I'm now cooking these big one pot meals. So I do this meals with root vegetables. I always have a complex carb in there, like a rice or a quinoa or something like that. And then root vegetables like potatoes and onions and beets. And then I do a whole cube and when I say a cube, the big giant things that carry gold butter and then a fatty meat and then seasonings and that's my one pot. And we cook up about literally like a two gallon pot of that. And then that's the daily meal. We cook it at about 11. We survive up until then off of some breakfast and some strategies there. But that high fat intake made me less fragile by day six than I've ever been before. And I'm totally curious to ask you why that might be as is it just purely that my body isn't harvesting off of itself? What is it?

It's A couple of things. First of all, yeah, with the basic calorie intake of that, macronutrient considerations aside, right, like how much fat, how much protein, how much carb is in it, you simply are getting more calories. That's one part of it. But when you're shifting towards the higher fat intake, and especially when you're shifting towards not snacking and grazing on a lot of these traditional hunter foods, right, you know, chips and trail mixes and chocolates and sweets and a lot of the stuff that I know a lot of hunters will take out there with them, you're shifting your body into burning those fatty acids and generating ketones, a preferential fuel for your brain, for your liver and your diaphragm and your heart. And some of these muscles that are really involved quite heavily with endurance performance. And you get to the point where your body can go for longer and longer periods of time because you build greater and greater density of what are called mitochondria as you teach your body how to burn ketones. And if you look at, for example, persistence hunting, like going after an animal for four to six hours, and we have a great deal of evidence in African communities, for example, that they would do this with just water. The idea being that an upright human with the ability to sweat via the skin and the ability to carry their own water can eventually outlast an animal over the course of four, five or six hours. Especially on the African plains, where the topography isn't changing too much, you don't have a ton of up and down. The idea is that you can actually train your body to thrive in those type of scenarios. The other thing that's happening is when you're not frequently snacking and when you're not eating a lot of high glycemic index foods that spike your blood sugar really readily, you're not creating as many free radicals which cause joint inflammation, muscle inflammation, blood sugar fluctuations that cause a hypoglycemic drop after you've gotten your energy levels up. So, yeah, there's a lot of really cool things that happen when you become fat adapted, when you become able to go for long periods of time. And this whole idea mark of persistence hunting, I think that it could be the next big thing in the realm of hunting fitness. People going out and going after animals, fit people going after animals, perhaps with a bow. I know it's not legal in most states, but perhaps even with something else like a spear or an Avalon or one of these other tools that are considered a little bit more primal, ancestral Hunting device, but going for long periods of time and actually having it be a little bit more of a fitness competition between you and the animal you're going after, rather than taking it with a compound bow at 60 yards or a rifle at a thousand yards and really turning it into more of a chase. But ultimately, that long answer to your question, and it's a variety of things. The ketone production, the fat adaptation and the mitochondrial density, the lack of carbohydrates that produce that free radical inflammatory response, and then also just the fact that you're getting eating more calories, too.

Hmm. Wow. Well, thank you for answering that question. And I guess I can tell you that at those extra elevations and at that kind of level of energy and effort, you know, normally most seasons, during elk seasons, I'll lose anywhere from 10 to 13 pounds. Kind of seems to be my track. And this year, I actually successfully not only maintained weight, but gained a few pounds during elk season, which for me was crazy. I was blown away with how hard I work out there that I was able to do that. But more importantly, I was still mentally strong. The biggest breakdown for me is that I miss my kids. So on about day four or five is where I start wanting to be back home again.

When you can't Skype because you don't have reception or wi fi.

Yeah. But just the presence of it, the laying next to my wife, the getting up in the morning and having a cup of coffee and see them come out with their rubbing eyes. Because I work at home, I get the luxury of getting to get up with my kids and go to bed with my kids every day. I don't travel a lot for a living. It's hunting season. That takes me away. And that's a need, it's not a want.

Yeah. I just read the biography of Frederick Russell Burnham. It's called the Splendid Savage. And it's about this guy who was a scout for the United States against, like, for example, the Apache Indians. And then he eventually branched out, and he began not only guiding and doing hunts and stuff in Africa, but also fighting in the war in Africa. And then he eventually wound up in Alaska helping with us, like, gold mining and stuff up there. And these guys like this back in the day, so to speak, they would be gone from their families for months at a time. I was telling my wife about this book. She's like, what did his wife do? I'm like, that's just the way that they did it back then. They'd come back home, see their new baby, give Their baby, a kiss, be with it for a few days, then leave until Christmas. And we live in a little bit more coddled environment these days, I think, as fathers and husbands, where we're kind of expected to be at home with the family all the time. But I do think, again, my apologies to the girls listening in. I'm not saying this to be sexist, but I think in a certain way, men seem to be a little bit hardwired to go out and slay dragons and just leave for long periods of time from their wife and their children. And I'm personally getting less guilty about that as I age. I love my wife and my kids, but I also understand that it's okay to be away for long periods of time.

Yeah, no, I. I hear you there. There's actually a book out that I'm intrigued to read that talks that's documented separation couple. You know, the longevity of relationships based on intermittent separations. I don't mean separations like I want to separate, but there is a absence makes the heart grow fonder and a satelliting out from an interdependent relationship that I think is really real and I think it ties in. I mean, I mean, my wife and I struggle to exercise together, yet we're both health and wellness kind of nerds in how we eat and how we exercise. But her modality is so different than mine. She can't understand me and I can't understand her. The only place we come together, and this has been huge for me and Ben, I felt like there's such a disconnect in you and me and when we talk about the acknowledgement of age and I'm really excited for you to get in your mid-40s and for me to be at my age, for us to have that conversation. Right. Because I think there's part of you that doesn't relate to kind of what shows up in your body. And I think you're so fricking smart and you're so diligent. And for those of you guys that think, you know, that are listening, that Ben doesn't live this lifestyle that he preaches 24 7. He absolutely does, even in hunting camp. I think that your brilliance with what you do makes you believe that you're not going to have as many issues that others people do. And I'll acknowledge that you might be right. But I still think you'll experience fragility. And fragility is shocking.

Well, I'm going to take that to the next level and tell you that. And I know we had a pretty long conversation about this called how to hunt until you're 80. And I'll link to that, to that episode because Mark has a podcast and I was on it and we talked about this a little bit and this is something I didn't really talk about, but. But I am already experiencing that. I have discovered that unless when I get up in the morning and I'm 34 years old, when I get up in the morning, unless I spend 10 minutes on the lacrosse ball, the deep tissue massage ball, the foam roller, and then doing traction with these resistance bands that I literally have hanging in my living room, my body hurts during the day. It just does from what I'm doing every day. And I've discovered that type of practice that I never had to even think about doing when I was 20. Now it makes a night and day difference in the way I feel all day long when I get up and do that type of thing. Alcohol is another perfect example. I'm wrecked if I have more than a couple glasses of wine or beer or mixed drinks now. In the evening, I'm the nightly glass of wine kind of guy. But I am completely wrecked now. My body has simply changed. Maybe it's because I eat and live a lot healthier than I did when I was in college, drinking a lot, but at the same time, yeah, I mean, I'm starting to experience some of the stuff that you've talked to me about, hunting camp and that I know that you experience as a fit hunter. But yeah, I'm curious too, to see whether or not my obsession with longevity and anti aging and taking care of the body manifests itself in less aches and pains or if I just get just as wrecked as everybody else when I age.

Well, not only that, I mean, you have a level of commitment to the strategies to get up and do that every morning. I know I need to do that. But the biggest problem with a, I guess I would call myself kind of as an author out there, defined an outlier, right? And it's not because I'm cool or because I think I'm better than or any of that. I just don't know. 1. Remember, we're back to the one or ten thing, right? I'm an outlier because all I know is that 10 and as an outlier, stretching doesn't feel like progress. Yoga doesn't feel like progress. Rolling on a ball doesn't feel like progress. It feels like maintenance. And maintenance sucks. I hate maintenance. But I have to be so mindful of it today. I Mean, that's. So that's what's going to be my point with sue and I is the only place we meet is at maintenance and we need to. And yoga now is a twice a week thing for me, like religion, because it just gets all the stuff that I'm not willing to do a lot of other times. And it's. It's something that. It's one of the workouts I look the most forward to now is yoga. Sounds silly, but I do.

Yeah, I'm. I'm still at the point where it has to be productive for me. So, like, even when I'm doing that stuff I just described in the morning, I am listening to an audiobook or a podcast. I've got my elevation training mask on. I'm doing little sets of burpees and squats in between to keep my heart rate up. So, yeah, I'm still at the point where my yoga. I got to do it super duper hot in the sauna. So I'm getting the heat shock protein production. I'm still trying to maximize productivity with all these things because I agree you get bored when you're just on the roller and you're like, I'm not, not getting fitter doing this.

Yeah, well. So, yes, I'm glad you can liken to that. But that's kind of the mutuality with sue and I is that we meet there. That's where we meet and that's where to your previous conversation is. I still believe in interdependent relationship. And, you know, I don't think you have to be sexist because she's off doing her own thing that society can define whatever it is, while I'm doing my own thing. But then we can kill, still come back, high five, kiss and be a teammate ship and trying to go through the battle of raising children and just the time constraints in this world that we've set ourselves up for.

So, yeah, yeah, my wife. My wife doesn't hunt. She. She fishes steelhead with her dad and her brother. And she. She kills chickens. She. She takes care of the homestead, the goats, the chickens, and she prepares a lot of wild game.

Right?

And she. I remember one time I got home from a vacation. Since we've probably already driven away a lot of our vegan and vegetarian listeners, I guess I can't do any further damage saying this. There was an entire pig with all of its body sections just spread around the garage because she was butchering a pig to make bacon and pork stomach and basically doing the tail, the snout thing. With the pig because she wanted to learn how to do that. But yeah, she's got her own interests, I've got mine, but they tend to complement each other pretty nicely. So I've got a question for you, Mark, because I wanted to be sure to get this in for our listeners, because I know a lot of people who are listening, they do want to challenge themselves. Maybe they're not just getting into hunting, maybe they're already hunters, but they want to take things to the next level. Let's have some fun. Now. If you were to kind of like think of some of the more challenging hunts that people could go on of fit listeners maybe done, like Spartan races and obstacle races, and they're like, all right, I want to take this fitness and tap into something a little bit more primal, a little bit more ancestral. Go harvest my own meat, but really challenge myself doing. So. What are some of the hunts you would recommend?

So let me, let me ask you then. And is the world my oyster?

And the world the world is your frigging oyster. And yeah, throw a few options out there, both budget friendly and then also dream scenario.

Okay. So I think on a challenging physical level, going through the process of getting good enough and committed enough to be able to. To hunt elk with a bow is still one of the coolest hunts in the world for multiple reasons. Because not only is it, you know, the majority of elk that are going to get killed with archery equipment is going to be happening from 8500 to 10.5. It's a September hunt. It's warm, the animals live at high elevation. They're rutting, which means they're on the move all day. And the big component that separates it from the rest in terms of. Of an amazing godlike experiences. To hear a bull bugle in the woods, it's just magic. It's magic. And if you can get to the next level, where you now talk animal, which is my all my favorite hunting turkeys, ducks, geese, elk, anything that I can talk to in their language and it responds to me is magic, right? So to call a bull into close range and have him respond to what I'm trying to communicate, communicate to him, and the years it's taken to figure out how to talk elk is magic. So not only does it have the physical component, it also has that physical chess match component. Because an elk is a fit some and trying to get in front of him, in between his cows, or get at the right elevation strategically to position, you are going to have your ass kicked physically in terms of Trying to cover the terrain that it's going to take, take to harvest that bull and then you take it to the next level in that you can talk as his language. It's just an amazing thing.

Yeah, that's crazy. That's something I'm trying to learn right now is how to call elk. And I'm again going to probably the uphill battle kind of way with YouTube and my elk calls on my diaphragms, but I'm slowly learning. Another good reason to go out with a guide anyways though. Okay, so, so, so an elk hunt like that would be like Colorado or something like that.

Yeah, you know, Colorado. I like Colorado because if for the people wanting to challenge themselves physically, that's a 9-12,000ft equation. Idaho is going to be a little more mild terrain because we have some lower elevation here. Our tallest mountains. 12, 7, there's over the counter tags. You know, I have a couple of more moderate archery hunts out here and just know, I mean these hunts that we're talking about are in some that four to $5,000 category. So they are budgetarily minded but still high level on the, on the, you know, intrigue and, and the part that's important for your listeners to know is that yeah, you can go buy a tag and a license in any western state over the counter and go chase bulls with the general public. You're just going to struggle for years trying to figure it out. And that's okay. That's how I did it. You know, that's how you can do it too. But I think you speed up your process when you take on a mentor or you kind of take on a paid helper. Right. You take on somebody that you're going to learn from. To go through that experience I think is an important component and I can help you guys with that. But the other side of it, if we start talking about one of the hunts that I'll never forget, that's still not crazy priced is a mountain goat hunt. And hunting for mountain goats in British Columbia or Alaska can really be an amazing experience because you are still not only you're dealing with elevation gain and the climbs and the difficulty of that. You're fighting the alders, you know, physically, it's. I don't know if I told you the story that there was a cook in a, there was a cook in a British Columbia camp who had more one liners than anyone I've ever talked to anywhere. This guy could pull out a one liner for everything. And he described the alders In Canada, we were talking about it. And Barrett, for those of you who don't know, this is like this thick tangled web of the thickest and most gnarliest brush that when it's wet, they're super slippery on top of it and they're about 15ft tall. And you're trying to get through literally a half mile of these because there's an alder band in B.C. that you have to penetrate through to get up to the high alpine. And so the only way through them is lots of times avalanche shoots or creek bottoms or whatever. They're almost impenetrable. Anyway, we got into one and couldn't get out. And that happens. And the cook, when debriefing it when we got back said, you know, getting into the alders, you know, you just need to, to know that you're there and you're going to be there and you need to change your attitude because he goes, it's like wiping your ass with a wheel. It's never ending. And I thought that was so funny and so well said. Wiping your ass with the wheel, it's never ending. Yeah, so. So anyway, it's, it's. Mountain goat hunting is amazing because not only do you have that physical climb component, you have this amazing, majestic animal that lives at high elevation and is not very dense. You got to cover a lot of countries to find one. And then the last part is once you get up there, goats. There's a saying in the goat world that mountain goats live or mountain goat hunting stops where, or, sorry, mountain goat hunting starts where sheep hunting stops. And they're right. Mountain goats live in country that you or I, to go after them in, we're risking death. Not, not kinda. Not sorta. I was in a position where I said to myself three different times when I was on that hunt, if I keep going, saying I'm choosing to risk death to keep going. Now your next question may be. Mark, did you decide to move forward? My answer was no.

You mean death from falling?

Death from falling.

Yeah. That's one thing that's hard for me. Like heights where I'm not roped in, just be. And again, like I never used to have this feeling when I was single. And yeah, now that I have kids, even like in triathlons when I'm bombing down a slope, I am more cautious now. I descend more like a grandma because I think of my kids and I've got like, I've got life insurance out the wazoo and I've covered myself and I've made sure My family's gonna be taken care of if I die. But there's like this weird thought that goes into your head when you're in a scenario like that where your kids, faces flash across your head and it's weird like for those of you guys who are, who are gals who don't have kids and your adrenaline seekers, it changes after you've had children. I agree.

It does. Yeah. And that's, I just, I think it's irresponsible to put your life knowingly in jeopardy and being a parent.

Yeah. Unless, unless you're saving your family. Unless you're getting, getting, getting that goat because your kids are starving.

Right. So, so I backed out of three different scenarios that I wasn't willing to continue on. And, and, and we ended up succeeding in the long run. But I made it more difficult by having, you know, so, so there was that component and believe me, I pushed it it. Right. I mean there were other times where I was like, woo, I'm right on the razor edge of this. But that was part of the intrigue and the, you know, the fun and excitement and that country is just unbelievable up there. I mean it's just at those kind of elevations. There's, there's so many times where you're the first one who stood in that bowl before, you know, and there's just that, the cool factor that. So, so I would tell you that mountain goat hunting was an amazing hunt. And I would tell you that elk is an amazing hunt. And down. You know, so there's there. But there's lots of cool stuff too. Red stag and the roar in New Zealand. That's amazing country. That's the adventure capital of the world. The kiwis love Americans. It's a fabulous place to visit. And then there's always dangerous game in Africa. Cape buffalo is pretty hard.

Yeah, dude, that's the. I want to do dangerous game in Africa.

Yeah.

I'm much more prone to do that than I am to, to be elevated at heights without a rope. I don't mind an animal charging at me if I, if I'm armed.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's got that component too. And so I think those are needs to be on people's bucket list. Moose in Alaska. I think brown bears in Alaska are a really amazing critter. And then, you know, we need to think about our conservation piece. I mean if you can go to some of the stand countries and chase around ibex at those kind of countries, those are such desperate, desperately poor countries. Your money goes there and makes a difference in so many hundreds of lives just with, you know, one trip that it's unbelievable. So there's that side of this, too. Don't forget, as traveling hunters, we're blessing a lot of countries that have no other revenue sources, and we're giving an animal a monetary value which keeps the indigenous population from killing them all.

Yeah.

You know, right now in poor old Zimbabwe, you know, you have these mass poisoning of elephants going on right now because of the whole Cecil the lion thing thing that has now pulled hunters out of Africa and made them scared to go there. And now all of a sudden, the indigenous populations are wiping the elephants out because they don't have any monetary value anymore.

Yeah, I heard about that.

It's really a bum deal.

Plus, the lion, the lions are dying now, too, because now that people aren't going in to hunt the lions, the farmers and ranchers are just killing them.

Yeah, yeah. If for any of your listeners who want to prove that to themselves and not trust me or you or anything, go, go, go. There's a TED Talk that's out there and that TED Talk talks about. And if you just Google the Botswana lions and the TED talk, you'll see an advocate talk for 20 minutes on how we need to keep lion hunting there because it's the only way they stay.

I heard about that one and I'm going to to link to that one in the show notes. I've been taking some notes. So for those of you listening in, I'll link to to Mark's website in the show notes. The. The previous hunting podcast we've done, that splendid savage book I mentioned, the podcast I did with Mark. This video, Mark just referenced whole bunch of other stuff. So the URL for that, if you want to check it out, is BenGreenfieldFitness.com got hunts BenGreenfieldFitness.com gothunts and when you go there, you can also leave a comment or a question from me or Mark and we'll hop on and hopefully point you in the right direction. But if you're listening in and you want to go out hunt with a guide, try out one of these hunts that Mark just talked about. I'd highly recommend do it. It's a ton of fun, an awesome new thing to learn, a really cool way to tap into a whole different primal ancestral feeling like we just kind of described in this episode. And Mark, I want to thank you for coming on the show today and sharing all this stuff with us.

Oh, it was my super pleasure. It was my super pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Hey, Ben, one more quick thing. One more quick thing. I think it's important that the listeners understand that the one thing I'm going to ask of all of you is that we all have individual goals, and some of them in this context is kind of exercising our inner predator. In that I would ask you to look beyond yourself and look at the duty to the animal as well. First in not only how we approach the project of you learning that, but that I honestly, we need to be conscientious that we have a duty and a responsibility and a reverence to God's creation that allows us to eat of their flesh and remember that that's what this is about. Can we enjoy the process? Hell yes. That's what it is. But in the same token, we have a duty and a responsibility to the animal of ethical harvest and all those other things while we're going about it.

Yeah, it's totally true. Thanks for including that too, Mark. It's a super important point. So I think that's a perfect place to end this episode. So again, you can go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com GoThunts to get access to a lot of the resources that we just talked about. And Mark, I want to thank you for coming on the show.

Oh, thanks for having me. I appreciate you, Ben.

All right, cool. Well, folks, this is Ben Greenfield and Mark Warnke from Got Huntsman signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have a healthy week. Hey, it's Ben. I hope you stuck around because I got one last thing for you that will help us make this show better. And it's a survey. Don't you just love surveys? So this survey will take about three minutes of your time, plus you get all the instant gratification and the amazing karma that comes with knowing that you helped to support the show. So here's how you can take take this quick, quick, quick. I promise quick that I say quick survey. You go to podcast1.com that's podcast o n e.com and when you go to podcastone.com you'll see right there where you can take a survey that will help me make this show better. So enjoy your surveying.

You've been listening to the Ben Greenfield fitness podcast cast. Go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness and performance advice.

Sa.