How To Use Low Level Light Therapy and Intranasal Light Therapy For Athletic Performance, Cognitive Enhancement & More.

In this episode of the Ben Greenfield.

Fitness show, intranasal light therapy would be part of a fairly wide and big field called photobiomodulation. So when you talk about photobiomodulation, you're using light to stimulate your body, including the brain, to heal itself. When a person is not functioning optimally and you're exposed to low level light or laser therapy, oxygenation actually increases. If you do a PET scan, you can actually see more activity in the brain. And systemically, it stimulates the body to restore homeostasis, which is the internal balance of the body.

He's an expert in human performance and nutrition, voted America's top personal trainer and one of the globe's most influential people in health and fitness. His show provides you with everything you need to optimize physical and mental performance. He is Ben Greenfield. Power, speed, mobility, balance, whatever it is for you, that's the natural movement. Get out there. When you look at all the studies done, studies that have shown the greatest efficacy, all the information you need in one place right here, right now on the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast. Hey folks, Ben Greenfield here. And several weeks ago I actually wrote an article. It was called the ultimate guide to using light to biohack your circadian rhythms, sleep better and beat jet lag forever. I love those long titles. Anyways, in that article I told you about an in earth light phototherapy device called the Human Charger, which I've been experimenting with for everything from jet lag to a burst of pre workout wakefulness. And then directly after that I wrote another article and that article was called Pink makes you docile, orange makes you buy stuff, red makes you mad, how to use color light therapy for mood, cognition, healing and more. And in that article I talked about how to use something called chromotherapy to change your mood, deal with insomnia, or treat a variety of other health issues. But then a few days ago, probably because based off of those articles, it appears I've lately been obsessed with light biohacks. One of my friends mentioned the word photomedicine to me, and the word photo medicine was a new term in my vernacular. But when I looked into it, I found that intranasal light therapy, which is literally light stimulation of blood capillaries in your nasal cavity helps, has actually been used for the past couple decades as this non invasive way to introduce light energy into your body. And there's actually when I dug in a surprising amount of research on this form of non iodizing radiation, or non ionizing radiation rather on biological symptoms like cognitive performance and fighting free radicals and combating Alzheimer's and a lot of other interesting things. So for today's podcast, I hunted down an expert in this form of photomedicine, which is also known as photo biomodulation or also low level light therapy. So this Guy's name is Dr. Lou Lim, and Dr. Lim is the inventor of a wearable intranasal light therapy device designed for home use called the VI Lite. And Dr. Lim is a doctor of naturopathy. He has a graduate engineering diploma and mba. He's also a chartered accountant, for what that's worth, Although I don't know what accounting has to do with intranasal light therapy. Perhaps we'll find out. He's also certified in medical neuroscience, neurobiology and human physiology. He has qualifications from University of California, Duke University, University of Chicago, University of Sheffield in the uk, and he collaborates with Harvard Medical School as well as Boston University in research related to this field, the field of photobiomodulation. So considering the fact that my experience with photobiomodulation and intranasal light therapy has been shoving those little laser light pens up my nose when I was a kid and laughing that it turned one side of my nose red, especially when you do it in the dark with your friends, I think I probably have quite a bit to learn from Dr. Lim, and perhaps things go a little bit more deep than that. Although maybe, again, I was onto something when I was doing that as a kid. So, Dr. Lim, I'm curious how you got into this. Did you also just, like, shove pens up your nose when you were a kid, or did you discover this some other more refined way?

Well, actually, no. I think before I get into this, Ben, you actually touch on wide areas regarding light, the use of light in various therapy. You actually covered a large part of photo medicine. You actually touched on something that's often confused between light therapy that's known to the public and how it's used in medicine. So when you mentioned light therapy to help in your circadian rhythm, your wakefulness, that's been known in the public for a very long time. And a lot of people thought light therapy was all about that. So that has been used for treating winter depression, especially winter, where I'm right now in the north and in the east, where people do undergo depression during winter, when you don't see a lot of the sun. So they have this device that is light blue. You put it up in the morning and. And that.

Yeah, yeah. A light box.

Yeah, a light box. Yeah, so that's, that's not quite in my field. And indeed a more recognized feeling for the medicine. That's the other you mentioned about chromotherapy, which is the belief that when you have different color light, you can actually improve your mood or get you into some kind of healing as well. I'm not that particular familiar, particularly familiar with that. The evidence not quite there, but I think a lot of people benefit from that too. And then you mentioned further medicine that is actually horizontally a pretty big field. And I'd like to enlighten your listeners a little bit about what that covers.

Sure.

So photomedicine covers laser surgery, use of lasers in actually more powerful lasers in a variety of treatments, like laser surgery is used in the treatment of scars in the skin. That's been around for quite a while. That's been used in dentistry as well. And part of it is used to cure wounds and so on in dentistry. And it also covers a field called photodynamic therapy. That's where you combine light with a tracer of photosensitizer, some kind of solution that's been injected into your body and it's been approved by the FDA for treating skin cancer. When you do that, treating tumors, the field is, I think they reach a stage where they've discovering new things, but the benefit is a little bit more marginal. Then you have PDT for antimicrobial treatment and you combine with light and you actually kill bacteria, fungus. I'm actually involved in research with Harvard on finding ways to do that to treat superbugs.

Interesting. So when it comes to intranasal light therapy and using something like photomedicine or photobiomodulation by putting light into your nose, is that something that also has been researched, particularly regarding its use on things like molds and fungus or cancer? Or is that more for stimulating neural receptors or the brain or cognitive performance?

Yeah, I was just going to come to that part. So intranasal light therapy would be part of a fairly wide and big field called photobiomodulation. So when you talk about photobiomodulation, you're using light to stimulate your body, including the brain, to heal itself. And what actually happens biologically is the cells in our body contain mitochondria, except the red blood cells, which doesn't have it. All other cells have mitochondria which receive red and near infrared light at low level. And that's why it's been called low level light therapy for a long time. And then it gets stimulated. If it is not Functioning optimally, it gets stimulated to produce more cellular energy. So there would be some measure of additional energy created. And then it also creates signaling that will stimulate the body to heal. So you guys know this gene transcription and so on, it accelerates wound healing. And systemically, it stimulates the body to restore homeostasis, which is the internal balance of the body.

Now, if I could interrupt you for a moment. A lot of times it seems like in health conversations and, and especially alternative medical conversations, you know, we tend to throw around words like, you know, homeostasis and, you know, restoring function, things along those lines. But what exactly is going on, you know, from a cellular standpoint or a biological standpoint, when a cell, or let's say the tissue in your nose, for example, gets exposed to infrared light, what's actually happening on a cellular level when that happens?

Actually, the cells go through this respiratory chain to produce the energy as part of the process of freeing the flow in the respiratory chain. Very often, nitric oxide has been clogging the respiratory chain when it's not functioning properly. So this process also releases nitric oxide back into the body. And as you might know, nitric oxide actually relaxes your blood vessels and increases the blood circulation.

Yeah, it's like Viagra.

Yeah, Viagra uses nitric oxide as well. And you have interest in fitness and sports. This is really helpful. I can touch into the areas where photobiomodulation is used in sports medicine.

Yeah, I'd certainly be curious about that. But just to clarify, so basically what happens at the cellular level is that when a cell gets exposed to this infrared light, the area that it's actually acting on is the mitochondria. So it's acting on like the respiratory chain in the mitochondria, where we basically absorb and utilize electrons. And somehow when we get exposed, or when the cell particularly gets exposed to infrared light, there is a release of nitric oxide?

Yes.

Okay.

If the cells are functioning optimally, nothing really changes, especially when the amount of energy is low, in which case you keep it low, you don't damage the cells. But if the cells are not functioning optimally, it will respond to this light energy.

Now what happens if the intensity is high? Right. Why do we use low level light therapy? Why not like, I guess like a different wavelength or a higher amount of energy? What happens then?

Yeah, wavelength is not so much the issue. Actually. The issue is going to be the power. So even if it was blue, if it's low level, it doesn't do that much damage. But if you use a High intensity laser. And you can imagine high power lasers we use in surgery. You've seen science fiction movies and spy movies where they use lasers to as weapons. That actually happens. High powered laser actually does the opposite. It is destructive.

Okay. So we're basically firing a Star wars weapon up our nose. If we use something higher energy, you.

Got to know what you're doing.

Okay.

So the property of laser light actually is we call it biphasic and it means that at low level it heals, at higher level it is destructive. Somewhere in between, nothing much happens. So here talking about healing, you got to keep it at low level.

Gotcha. And so when we get an increase in nitric oxide production after a cell has been exposed to the energy in low level infrared light, what exactly is happening? Is the cell just going to increase its oxygen consumption at that point or increase its production of ATP or what is the final effect of that increase in nitric oxide?

Yeah, we actually have led evidence to show that when, like I say, when a person is not functioning optimally and you're exposed to low level light or laser therapy, oxygenation actually increases. If you do an FMRI on the brain or you know, PET scan, you can actually see more activity in the brain or more oxygen in the brain. And you do a thermography of the body, you can actually see more energy and oxygen being created. So that actually happens. And yeah, in sports medicine there is quite a bit of research done now and there is a paper that kind of suggests that low level light therapy, laser therapy that's applied to the body actually it's quite similar to like doping with you know, like blood, new blood infusion. So they're in the area where is this rehab or is there going to be like, you know, doping or what is it? I think they're discussing, they're discussing this particular area.

But, but it's really. Yeah, so, so they're, they're looking at making something like this illegal for, for using during sports because of its effect.

Yeah, you know, there is some discussion, but I say that low level light laser therapy sports has been so far been used in a lot of Olympic teams, mainly for rehabs for quicker recovery from injuries. Especially when you have injuries, it is significant. If you study the papers published, again, are you enhancing performance is arguable, but I think in lab studies at Harvard, they show that mice being exposed to low level light therapy actually they perform much better. They climb up these miniature staircases, quicker rate and endurance is better.

Really. So in a study like that, are they putting little Low level light therapy devices up the noses of the mice or are they using some other way to introduce.

It's a lot easier than that. They just base the mice in red, probably near infrared light.

That's really interesting. So I use an infrared sauna and frankly, once I've gotten my cold shower and my body temperature back down after I've come out of that sauna, I feel amazing. My cognitive performance goes through the roof for the next couple hours. And I'm a productivity machine. However, for use during sports. Right? Like let's say for the, for the triathlete, you know, hammering a bicycle down the highway or you know, somebody pounding down the trails during a trail run. How would you practically use something like low level light therapy in a situation like that?

Well, they actually apply low level light therapy before the event, before your need for performance and find that the performance and the muscular recovery is quicker.

So you do it almost the same way that they've done studies on the use of an ice vest prior to competition, or the same reason that the Tour de France cyclists would sit in an ice bath before they warm up to head out for a time trial. You could use something like low level light therapy prior to your performance.

Yeah, I guess you can. There's no regulation against it. I actually have, you know, feedback from a coach who is also, if I remember a couple of years back, a chiropractor, he was telling me that he had someone that was under him. I'm not sure whether it was rehab or just, you know, a guy who does long distance running. And he said he was improving his time by a minute, a mile. Oh my God. I'm pretty sure that, you know, that can't be sustained. But that was the, in the beginning.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's a lot a minute. I mean, you know, I guess in a non elite athlete, that's certainly doable. That's, that's, that's quite significant though, for, for like an elite athlete sometimes. Well, I'll be honest with you, sometimes I, I question things like that and how much of that is like placebo versus an actual effect when it comes to something like this. But I am curious what you mentioned. Were you saying that, that it's the, the US Anti Doping Agency or the World Anti Doping Agency or something like that that has looked into the possibility of making something like low level light therapy illegal? Or was it a different organization?

This was actually mentioned by one of the leading researchers in this field, a professor from Brazil, and he named it Leo Jr. I think. And yeah, he had some discussion about this. I think there's nothing really serious. I think there's no major complaint that's come up. But this is just, you know, just, Just discussion.

Interesting. It's always, you know, I'm always curious about how decisions are made about what's going to be illegal. Right. Like, is it, is it unfair for a guy like Tiger woods to get Lasik surgery? Right. Or is that just something natural versus Lance Armstrong taking testosterone? And is there a big difference between the two? I'm always curious, especially now that we're in the era of being able to biohack and use devices like this, about where do you draw the line? Because frankly, so far, and I wanna ask you a little bit about this in a moment. From the research I've done on photomedicine, unlike testosterone or something like that, there don't seem to be a lot of dangerous side effects.

No, there's actually no major side effect at all. That makes it actually interesting. But I'm not really an expert in the use of light and laser in sports. I'm a bit more into neurology and the immune system and so on.

Yeah. And that's actually, I want to ask you about that. What happens when you take like an intranasal light therapy device and you put it in your nose? And by the way, for those of you who are curious, what in the heck this would actually look like? If you go to the show notes and the shownotes are at BenGreenfieldFitness.com Noselight that's BenGreenfieldFitness.com noselight if you go there, I'll put a picture and some other resources from what Dr. Lim and I talk about. But when you put it into your nose, what happens? What do you feel like and what occurs from a cognitive or a neurological standpoint?

Yeah. Here's the thing about the nose. The nose has more blood capillaries per square centimeter than virtually anywhere else in the body, believe it or not. You just think about it, you know, here's the scratch test. You scratch anywhere in the body, including the membrane inside your nose, and just ask yourself which will bleed first. And that's. It's most like, you know, we get nosebleed easily. So we know that there's quite a lot of blood capillaries there. Micro ones are very near the membrane. So if you're talking about irradiating the blood, for example, the nose would be a good place. And the other thing is, the nose is about 3 inches from the brain, there is not a lot in between. It's mainly soft tissue and moisture. There's no scalp, no hair. Like, if you try to direct it from the top of your brain, which has been in research for over 10 years, there's a lot more work. You need more power and so on. There's no way that the light energy will reach the bottom part of the brain, which is really important because they're the, you know, the more ancient part of our brain. And that's where also the memory and emotional areas are. So the noise is always a quick, and, you know, a quick way to reach the brain. And once it reaches the brain, brain signaling goes on. I've had some evidence by way of EEG readings from some experts, neurofeedback. And when they do this imaging, you can see that in the 25 minutes in one treatment, you can actually see the brain going through rewiring activity just from one intranasal device.

What's that mean, rewiring?

It goes. Well, neurofeedback people are in the business to help their patients to restore normative functions in the brain. And they looked at different brain waves in their reading and see in each category of brainwave whether it's functioning normally or not. When it's not, they do various things like maybe cognitive behavior or they do some computer simulation to try and achieve that. That takes time. They've gone into various methods, even light and sound, to achieve that. But I got feedback that the near infrared intranasal diode actually produces the restorative activity more quickly than any of this. This is a new field. I'm working with a couple of thought leaders in this field to see how we can get it more adopted in the field of neurofeedback.

Gotcha. Now, one of the things related to neural activity, and actually, my friend who first told me about this intranasal light therapy device that you invented, I believe he knew about it because someone close to him was using it for managing, I believe, Alzheimer's. Now, is that true? Is there some type of research that's been done in particular not for improvement of cognitive performance, but, for example, for. For managing the symptoms of something like Alzheimer's?

Yeah, you've touched in a field where I have a lot of passion in Alzheimer's, it is affecting people today who have no hope of recovery. The best that a drug can do is temporarily restore your neurotransmitter activity for six months to a year. And even in the pipeline, they are talking about slowing down the decline. But not arresting it. So I'm doing the first placebo control study for Alzheimer's patients here in Toronto and Ontario in Canada. We're in the middle of it. I think we'll be publishing it in a few months time. What we have, I think is a breakthrough. It's really. I might be provoking some skepticism here, but. But until we get the study completed, I'm just saying that in this pilot study, all the volunteers who started early have shown recovery and we've measured it. Not just the assessment of the daily living, but also measured in cognitive scale like the mini mental state exam. So there's something really very interesting. My co authors are going to be the professors of neurology at Boston University and a professor at Harvard Medical School. I think there's something to look forward to. I'm really looking forward to it because I think the drugs are not really helping that much, if at all. And we're seeing something really interesting here.

Interesting. I want to ask you about how this works from like a logistical standpoint. Okay. Because it appears to be from the pictures that I've seen and I haven't used a violite at all. I don't own one. I've never used intranasal light therapy. Unless you of course count shoving a laser pointer up my nose. But how does one wear it? Like, what exactly does the unit, what exactly is the unit comprised of in terms of where things go and what you do when you're using it?

Easiest thing in the world, Ben. All you do is this is a little portable device with a nose clip. You clip it to your nose, you press a button, it turns on and shuts off automatically after 25 minutes. I sleep with it because my busy schedule, I have it on my bedside, turn it on when I go to bed and it shuts off automatically.

It doesn't. Well, I want to ask you this because in ear light therapy is something I use for wakefulness. When you put it in your nose, it doesn't keep you awake.

Well, it works a little bit differently. We have people, and actually this is another quite consistent feedback. People with sleep problems, they use it any time of the day and find that they sleep better at night. The reason, there is actually a study done in China and it shows that people who are exposed to low level lung therapy sleep better. And they measure the melatonin level. It seems to help the body to release melatonin. As you know, melatonin helps you to go to sleep, it helps to release it better when it's time to do it. Now, the other light therapy, where it helps with your circadian rhythm. You turn on a bright bluish light in the morning that shuts off melatonin so you don't feel sleepy during the day. And by the time it comes in the evening, you're tired and you get into that rhythm of sleeping at the right time, I guess.

Interesting. Okay, so you put this in. You personally use it. You put it in, you press a button, and it just turns on for 25 minutes and then automatically turns off.

Yep. And it runs on a disposable AA battery. You can get it in any grocery or pharmacy. That's it. You change it. If you use it daily, you change it once every three months.

And the actual device, how far does it go up your nose? It seems like it would be uncomfortable.

Try it. It's not. It is not. You can still breathe freely. And I have people use two different intranasal devices because we have one set of devices with visible red, which doesn't go quite as deep as the near infrared, which means that it gets to your circulatory system and it feeds your body as a whole in general, whereas the near infrared does direct brain stimulation. So when you do them both together, it's kind of holistic, really.

So you combine low level light therapy with infrared.

Yeah, we have the visible red, which doesn't penetrate that deep, which goes into the blood circulation, and the new infrared, which goes right down.

Okay, so it's visible and then infrared. And is that on the same device or do you have to, like, purchase two different devices to kind of combine the two?

Yeah, the different devices. Because, you know, it's often better not to have two different wavelengths coming out of a diode that's close together. There is some interference going on.

Yeah, that makes sense. Could you put, for example, the red one in your left nostril and then the infrared one in your right nostril and do both of the same. Same time?

Yes. We have a growing number of people doing that. I. I don't do it because I just. I feel healthy. I'm not. My annual medical has been perfect. So I use the near infrared to make sure I don't get into a. Dementia or, you know, cognitive impairment?

Yeah, yeah. Do you use this at all prior to efforts for which you need enhanced cognitive performance, such as writing a paper or recording the Ben Greenfield Fitness Show? Do you actually use it to charge your brain up for certain activities? Yeah.

That's interesting. I know the professor at University of Texas, Austin, and last year he Published a paper testing on his university students and found that while he didn't use the intranasal, he directed the light to the front part of the brain and found that the memory retrieval of information improved significantly in terms of lag time and also more accurate. Then this year he published another paper demonstrating using the Wisconsin cut test, demonstrating that the decision making is significantly better and learning improved. So it does. You know, I. I don't notice a lot of difference in myself because I'm kind of, you know, I don't. You're not quite sure what's happening, but I think I'm 60 years old and this year and I feel that my mind is sharper than when I was in my 30s and I actually had my IQ tested as well. So I think it's turned out interesting. You know, but the control studies show that in of terms it seems to be working this way now.

On your website it appears that you have kind of multiple models. For example, you have a red, which I assume is the red light, and then you have an infrared, which I assume is the infrared light. But then there's one called a prime and also one called a pocket miracle. What are those?

Right. I explained briefly that we have one set that is using visible red, that is actually you can see the red light, the near infrared, which is invisible, largely invisible. So the red ones goes more into your circulatory system. The near infrared goes straight direct to the brain. So these are intranasal devices. We have the pocket miracle, which is a portable equivalent of something like what they've been using among the Olympic coaches. They have big, really, you know, equipment is thousands of dollars. So among the visible red, we have the laser version which is the prime, and we have the non laser version which is the led. A lot of people who do research into low level light or laser therapy finds a lot of research material based on equipment using lasers. And this is to me is largely legacy because the first discovery of low level laser therapy literally is using laser. And there have been studies, thousands of studies accumulated over time. But about 15 years ago, researchers recognizing that LED will produce the same outcomes provided you can deliver the similar wavelength and energy to the cells. Now laser has, is more coherent, like, so it penetrates a little bit deeper, but when laser hits the tissue, it scatters anyways. That's the way light works. So the trick is if you are using a non laser, you have to deliver more power. So your target cells, as long as the target cells receive the same energy and the same wavelength, the outcome is the same. So we have both though, because some people don't want to use laser because of safety issues. It's not a big deal in low level energy. So we provide an option to people.

I see. So if you wanted to be as safe as possible, even though it is probably the most expensive of the different intranasal light therapy devices, which appear to range from 300 up to about $500, it looks like this infrared is kind of like the, the safest and probably like the best bang for your buck as far as having a non laser infrared wavelength that kind of penetrates deeper into the tissue, is better absorbed by your central nervous system and kind of gives you most of the benefits with as much safety as possible.

Yeah, the infrared we have is, is non laser led. The reason is we don't want, for safety reasons. We don't want light that's invisible, yet it's laser because you don't even know you're shining laser into your eyes or something. The safety is mainly to do with the eyes. So the infrared, like I said, has a longer wavelength, penetrates deeper. So the LEDs are more expensive and so on. It needs a bit more technology to build that, but the idea is to have deeper penetration and it penetrates directly to the brain. Now, sorry, I was going to touch on Pocket Miracle in the other device.

Well, that's exactly what I wanted to ask you about too is you have this thing called the Pocket Miracle. So you've got the red, you've got the infrared and the prime, and then. And of course, I'll link to all these in the show notes over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com noselight if people want to check them out. Your Pocket Miracle, frankly, it reads like an infomercial. It says the Pocket Miracle is a laser device that combines the science behind hair regrowth, pain reduction and wound regeneration through photobiomodulation. Please do explain.

Okay, here in the field of photo medicine and in aesthetics, you might have come across devices that laser devices that stimulate your hair to grow. You have a full of, a full head of hair, so it probably doesn't apply to you. But if, when your hair is thinning, it is pretty much established that light will stimulate your thinning hair, provided you're not, you know, you're not bald, you still have roots to regrow. And I can speak from personal experience because about 10 years ago my hair was thinning. So it works. And it's becoming a big industry now. For a long time they had it in, you know, in the clinics where they have, you know, you got to sit there, you got to make your appointment, and for weekly or bi weekly treatments now you can buy helmets. That does pretty much the same thing with actually a handheld device is almost like a comb. You do it slowly over your head. Now, the same device, all you need to do is change the adapter and you have a device that you can use for bruises in your body, for joint pain, for muscle injury, for quicker muscular recovery by strapping, and have it in direct contact to the focal area where the problem is. So we've seen it really working. When I have a back problem or eye strains, you know, part of my body, I generally find it find that part of the body recovering much quicker, even backache. A few days ago I woke up from bed and I got in the hotel, this bag and put it on is just almost magically the pain goes away.

Yeah, that makes sense. I've used one of those before, those low level light therapy devices. It's like a wand. I think the one that I had used was made by a company called Knee Can. So. So for the hair regrowth, though, because I. Not that any of our listeners are bald or struggle with hair issues, but I'm just saying, for the, for the hair regrowth thing, would you just move it like a comb over your head repeatedly?

Yeah. You know, all these clinical devices they run, they all apply the same principle, just the right low level laser light to that area of the scalp and it's. It actually stimulates a growth factor that governs the speed of your hair growth.

Interesting.

And there is another case of worry about the wrinkles. We have another adapter that keeps it a certain distance away from the skin and it helps to reduce wrinkle.

Now the pocket miracle, this one that we were just talking about, that is a laser. If one were to theoretically use infrared instead of a laser, would it not have the same effects on something like hair regrowth? Is there something special about the laser frequency spec specifically?

Yeah. It's also a matter of penetration. The near infrared penetrates deeper and now it's been recognized to actually help in deeper muscular pain and even joint pains. But I find a laser, when you put it in direct contact, does do almost the same thing. But for hair, you want to keep it pretty close to the surface. And the laser, I think probably the visible red laser probably works the best.

Okay. All right, gotcha. Well, this is super interesting. I'm going to put all the show notes for this over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com noselight and I'm kind of loving you and hating you right now, Dr. Lim. Loving you because you've opened my eyes to this new area of photo medicine that I wasn't aware of. Hating you because now I need to go buy yet another biohack to add to my library of of things to try. But regardless, it should be interesting. And what I will likely end up doing, I'm guessing, is probably I'll post a picture of myself doing something like in ear light therapy and intral nasal light therapy simultaneously. And of course I'll report on the results as I usually do. So super interesting. A couple other things for those of you listening in. VI Lite actually provided us with a discount code. It's Vielite Vie Lights. You can go to vielight.com the discount code they've given us is a 10% code on any of these and it's called the code is greenfield greenfield over@vielight.com I've also taken some notes while Dr. Lim and I were talking and those you can find@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Noselite that's BenGreenfieldFitness.com Noselight so within several days after this episode being released, I do expect all of my listeners to be walking down the streets of their hometowns with light therapy devices hanging out of their nostrils. So, Dr. Lim, thank you for coming on and sharing this stuff with us. Sure.

Definitely. I'm happy you called me. I think people need some medication on what possibilities are with this technology.

Yeah, I'd only come across it very, very briefly before and now I understand it a little bit more completely. And I'm actually, I'm game to try it, whereas before I thought maybe I would just be shoving something dangerous up my nose. But it sounds like it's actually quite interesting and the benefits to sports performance are actually greater than what I had thought after your explanation of the nitric oxide production and the increase in ATP production. So. So that's exciting too. And thanks for coming on the show, man.

Sure. Yeah, thanks. Thanks very much. I'm going to forward you some information and maybe you can in the next few days. I'm giving an online webinar in early October and I'll give you we're preparing a trailer for that.

Yeah, I'd love to post that in the show notes. And also, by the way, if you have any compelling research studies that you'd like to send over that I can link to in the show notes as well, I always like to include those if you've got some that you find particularly meaningful when it comes to low level light therapy or intranasal light therapy or photo medicine, well, there's a lot of stuff.

But you know, if you're onions or mainly in sports, I can send you the papers that's been published that I talked about briefly during these.

Yeah, that would be great. And that way I can link to that in the show notes for people to check out.

And I will definitely send you the link to my webinar because you will learn in a nutshell all the important things about photobiomodulation.

Perfect. We'll link to that too. So all of that will be over. For those of you listening@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Noselight so until next time, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Dr. Lim signing out from Ben Greenfield Fitness. Have a healthy week.

Thank you for listening.

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