https://www.listennotes.com/e/5bc9ba81eeb343308452bf4b40784220

All right, here we are, people.

Rhett, how are you doing, man?

I am doing good. And I'm super excited to have our guest today.

Dude, our guest today, I am super stoked about is Megan, who I used to know as Megan Nash because her and I studied at Fuller together.

We did.

Giving our MFTs, she saw Me back in the day when I was floundering trying to figure everything out, and Megan was always the smart kid in class. So I'm so- Is that what you remember? I do.

Wow.

And you always had the good snarky comments, which having a good snarky comment is always important to me.

So I'm sure- I think that's deep in my generational family line. snarky comments. Yes.

That's crazy.

We started 15 years ago. I was thinking about that. We're in 2025. We started our program in 2010.

That's awesome. Yeah.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

But we are excited. Megan, we're probably going to chat through a few different things today. I know we're going to talk through restoration coaching, which this is kind of a new thing that's been going on. and you're kind of the ringleader around that. And we'll probably also delve into some exciting stuff around anxiety because can't get enough of that.

Can't get enough of anxiety.

I love anxiety.

He loves you.

Yes, yes.

I wish people would watch the videos, hopefully, because you make all the best facial expressions during. It's like half of the just oomph of the podcast is watching your facial expressions.

Yes. So online, if you're ever bored and you need someone to laugh at, just turn it on.

Tune in.

Yeah. Well, Megan, we're excited you're here today. Why don't we start off quickly in the beginning about kind of your pathway into restoration therapy. And then we always like to hear your favorite part about it. I like to, if you have one good Sharon or Terry story for us, maybe you can loop that in.

Oh, she's got tons of them.

Yeah, we'll see if I can remember. I mean, it started for me, I think it's called Marital Therapy was our class in grad school. I think it was like our second quarter. We are sitting eager, young, blossoming, wannabe therapists and we learned this model. And it's interesting because I was thinking about how when I learned it just in an educational setting, I remember feeling the sense of that this is such an established theory, that this feels like it's been around forever, right? Like it's just the way that it made sense, the way that it worked, And, you know, upon reflection, like Terry was writing the book on it, I think the year we were in grad school, right? I mean, he'd been developing it for the years prior, but I mean, I think a person in our cohort was like, you know, the student editor on it and helping him with that. I mean, it's just crazy to think that he was really pioneering it, but I remember, I mean, I remember sitting in class. I remember hearing about the pain cycle. And this is a thing that everyone says, but it just makes sense. I mean, I think there's something that the brain really likes when something makes sense. It helps us relax a little bit. And I think there was something about seeing the pain cycle on a board and recognizing my own that felt deeply organizing for me. I know we talk about organizing as a therapist. We do it for our clients. But I think for me personally, as somebody who's more of an internal thinker and processor, and I went into grad school in my third, I mean, I think I was 30 when I went into grad school. So I had had adult relationships at that point. I wasn't married yet, but having watched some of my relationships develop and end this, the model just really helped me organize around my own reactivity and my own pain in a way that nothing else did. So that was the start of it. And I'll say one, one Terry story, I will say so. There was, that was the first year we had a live cohort, Lance, you were in that, where people get to literally do live therapy behind the glass wall. Terry's watching, no pressure, right? I mean, you should do a podcast on just that experience, right?

Oh gosh.

You and Corey, I for some reason didn't get in. I think I didn't apply at the right time or for some reason there wasn't enough space, but then I realized I really want to be in this. Like, I really want to learn this. And so I went to Terry and I said, I think someone had to drop out or something. I forget. And I said, can you let me in? Can you let me in? I want to be in. And he said, no. For some reason, he couldn't. There was like, I think he was being fair to the people already in the group, which was so understandable. But instead, he was like, How about I meet with you for 30 minutes every Tuesday and I'll listen to your tape? And I was like, wait, what? You're just going to sit in your office with me and you're going to listen to my therapy and you're going to-- and I will never forget that. He listened-- I mean, I still remember the client he listened to. It was like my second client ever. And he listened to me rough my way through a pain in the P cycle with somebody. I just like the generosity of that, right? Like just the student really wanting this, he has to say no, but he said yes. And that solidified it for me. I mean, just getting to work one-on-one with him was really powerful.

Yeah, the authenticity is just so amazing around them and just the way that they live this, they live and breathe this and yeah, you know, I remember talking to them, I steal this line from them, I always say, like when I retire, I want to do therapy for free. It's like, and I remember hearing Sharon Hargrave say, like when we finish, we just want to supervise people for free. Like that's what we want.

That's totally their heart. Yeah.

Yeah.

But I think, isn't that just a great example of balance and flexibility though? Terry said no, he had a boundary. I think that's totally appropriate, but flexed, like also was giving and loving. I mean, I don't even know if I remember, I'm sure he remembers it, but for me as the student, getting to be one-on-one with him and learning from him is such a gift.

I'm sure he remembers the brilliant therapeutic work in that tape of your second session you were playing.

Oh my gosh.

I actually got a little bit of anxiety thinking about Do you remember your first and I don't mean the one way mirror stuff that we did like on campus, but do you remember your first walk down the hall with a real client, like in your practicum, like just taking that person back to the room for the first time to practice?

100%. Yeah, I remember the client. I mean, I remember this person's name. I remember the feeling thinking, yeah, this poor girl has no idea how green this therapist is. But it was also super exciting. I remember feeling this energy about it. I remember actually sending an email, I think to me young and Terry, probably Jim Furrow right before the session and being like, okay, I'm going in. And they were probably like, oh my gosh, another anxious student. I just remember feeling the bigness of the moment, right? Yeah. Rhet, I totally remember that feeling. The walk is a long walk.

It is. It just feels so heavy, which, you know, I guess coming from an RT model, the idea of like safety, you know, that we can hopefully even in that first session bring to a client that allows us just to kind of settle into the work is really, really important. I have this memory, Megan, and maybe I'm totally wrong. It's like 10 years ago on Pepperdine's campus, me, you, and Sharon went to Marmalade Cafe for lunch when I was doing some of that pastoral ministry anxiety work. Do you remember that?

Yes, I remember you being, I don't remember the lunch, but I remember you being there.

Yeah, that was a long time ago because I missed the opportunity to really know you and Lance because I had already finished grad school. and I had started my mft program, too, when I was 30. It was 2005. So it's cool how we've all circled back.

Yeah, I remember you. I remember you being in the lore of RT and being like, Rhett's anxiety man. And, like, he's so great at talking about. And you would. I think as you spoke, actually, at one of the summits on anxiety, I think that was my first kind of, oh, this is who Rhett is experience.

Well, and that just says a lot about the community, I think, because I really look back at that moment 'cause Terry asked me to speak on anxiety and fear, and it was like the first talk, like in the room to all the people. And I don't really feel like I've had a place being in that position to do that, honestly, but it's another example of like Terry and Sharon and the community people around helping people move into practice and gain experience and to learn things and that we don't have to be experts on stuff, that the way that we become better at something is by putting it into practice. I think that was like 2016. Yeah, I remember that moment, 2017, somewhere around there. So I'm excited to circle back to this time and place. And, Lance, I was thinking we should start off talking about coaching, because this is like the new thing.

Yeah.

Speaking of experts, Megan is the expert on RT coaching.

So can we add the word emerging?

Emerging.

Emerging.

Emerging.

Emerging. Yeah.

That sounds even better.

Emerging.

Tell us, for those who don't know, like explain what RT coaching is. And I'd be curious to hear more of the genesis of it, how this even got started and where it is today and where you'd like to see it go.

Yeah.

So interestingly, if I were to tell someone on the street who doesn't know restoration at all, what I would say restoration coaching is, is very similar to what we would say the restoration therapy model is. We teach people, we through insight, through practice, what it is to live into your peace cycle. We bring people through a process of self-regulation so that they can be their best selves with themselves in work settings, in their home life, but then also like relationally, like how am I? so that doesn't sound very different than the therapy. I think once we get inside the coaching model, it's, it's really how it shakes out that it's a little different. Like, what is the sort of mechanisms around coaching that are a little different than therapy simply by the nature of it being coaching? And I would say now, let me caveat this and say there are just like there are a lot of different therapy models, there are a lot of different coaching models. I mean, there's a lot of different ways people coach. So I I'm speaking about my coaching process, so it's not necessarily this is coaching. I really want to be clear if someone's like, oh, she's telling us about all of coaching. I'm not. I'm telling you about my experience of coaching.

So does your coaching have, like, a name? Like, is there, like, a.

My company, my coaching business is called your Grown Up Voice.

Ooh, yeah.

I named it your Grown Up Voice because at the end of the day, I think when you get to your fourth step, that's where we find your grown up voice. And that's where we find that best self, that regulated self coming forward, whether that's invulnerability, engaging where you would normally withdraw, whatever it might be for your unique cycle. Yeah, I like it. I played around with it, but I was like, I like it.

Well, and we should say, besides you being an LMFT, you know, there are what probably, there's lots of coaching and it's a Wild West, and there are probably two major coaching organizations that seem to have the cloud, which is ICF and then BCC. and you're with the BCC board certified coach and you had encouraged me to do that myself. And so you are a board certified coach and a LMFT.

Correct.

The model you like to practice in coaching is this RT model. Is that fair to say?

Correct.

Yeah.

In red, there's one.

We have our RC model because we take away the word therapy. But yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

You said it well.

I think there's one other too, the IMIU.

Is that a joke? Am I missing something?

I make it up.

Okay, I see this is new.

Coaching.

Is that a real thing? Yeah.

The coaches that are making it up.

There really is, there really is a lot of, I make it up. I mean, a lot of certifications in that I make it up in the coaching world. Yeah, no, I mean, I went through a process of becoming trained as a coach separate from restoration. The restoration model has has been in me for 15 years working it out therapeutically. But yeah, I decided at some point, I want to move into this world of coaching. I can tell you about that if that's of interest. But I actually trained to become an executive coach. I've been working a little bit with businesses teaching the model in more of a psychoeducation format. I thought, oh, this would be really helpful in a business setting. I'd still do that from time to time. My coaching has sort of evolved into actually focusing a lot more on non-clinical anxiety, which is where I get really excited to do a lot of good work. Going back to your question about what the difference is, I think for me, the coaching model that I use is really the program that I set up is really rooted in accountability. So there's still insight, there's still tools that we do, there's still this idea of practice, right? those of us in the RT world know practice is a huge piece of what we do as therapists. But I think what coaching really brings in and I bring in for my clients is accountability because the way my program is set up is you're doing work in the session, but I would say the majority of the work they're doing is outside of the session. It's almost like a physical therapist. You're like, okay, I'm coming for this session and you're gonna make me do exercises, but you gotta go home and do the exercises. Right, so it's, but it's pretty strong accountability. I have people who I'm like voicing with, if you know the Voxer app, it's like a non-video like walkie-talkie app. I do that type of work with my coaching clients of checking in with them, what are you working on? Where are you at with this particular homework? And so it really is in its pure form, it's coaching. It's, I'm keeping you accountable to show up to the work of the restoration model, particularly with anxiety. That makes sense. Yeah.

And I remember you and I have had conversations over the years because I was doing some corporate coaching.

Yeah.

In fact, it's funny how your brain remembers things. I remember on my way to spring break in March of 2018 to Colorado and walking through a McDonald's parking lot having a phone call with you. about some kind of big corporate client you were gonna work with. And so it wasn't McDonald's though.

They're not a pain.

It wasn't McDonald's. It wasn't McDonald's. But this has been in the works, I guess, with you for a long time. It seems like this transition. And I'm curious, was there a moment where you're like, I wanna, I don't know, like I wanna make, move this into coaching. And did you go to the Hargraves or someone have a conversation about a coaching piece or, Was it, I don't know, just more organic, I guess?

So personally for me, the transition to coaching was, I saw an ad on social media that says, Are you a therapist and are you bored? And I was like, yeah, I'm bored. Like literally, it was like this algorithm is, you know, it's connected to me. And I didn't sign up for the particular program that it was in, but everything that this particular coach who was a therapist and became a coach was like speaking to my soul. And I think part of it was, for me, coaching gives me the excuse to kind of pull in my gifts in different ways and organize it. Like, I love teaching. I love, really, at the end of the day, I think I'm probably more of a Coach than I am a therapist. I love keeping people accountable. I love challenging people. I like kind of having an organization around a really strong focus. Like, I think for me, coaching is like an excuse to get hyper focused on some work. And therapy, you know, we can feel like it's all over. It's like, yeah, we can focus and we have a really clear path for change with the RT model, but sometimes it can feel like really wide. And I was really excited. to learn the art of coaching and also learn like, oh, I can, I mean, in the business language, I can create a product that people can come. If it fits with what they're looking for, they can come and I've already got it all figured out in terms of what we're going to do and we're going to tweak it for the individual. They're going to walk through this program with me and in six weeks or 12 weeks, we're going to be done and maybe there's additional work we'll do, but I really liked that idea a lot and coaching was really the avenue for me. sort of the like, are you bored? Yes. I need to figure this out in this way. And then with respect to restoration coaching. So then I went on my journey. I became a coach and I was like, I know I'm gonna use the RT model somehow in this. I was thinking about that for business. I think you and I for sure talked about that. But I wasn't exactly sure how, 'cause it wasn't formalized. And then Sharon and Terry, I mean, they are like at the end of the day, They are inventors. Like, I think about them and they like think of things and they see things and they make them happen. And I think they saw the validity of coaching and how it was emerging, especially in the last five years. And they said, we need to, this seems like a good fit. Whatever's happening in coaching in the world fits very much with the heart of the restoration model, which is not navel gazing, not spending so much time in our pain, but actually getting up and moving. I mean, in some ways, the coaching model, by nature of the culture around coaching, is more suited to restoration than sometimes therapies. So many of us therapists are like, oh yeah, I have to remember to get up. I have to remember to keep my accountability happening with my clients. It's like, this is built into the coaching model. People who sign up for coaching, many of them, especially in the business world, but also just by nature of what you describe to them of what coaching is, they're like, okay, I'm ready to work really hard. And I'm like, oh, I love that. Let's get in there. Let's do this. And so the development was basically we sat in on a restoration therapy training and initially just thought about how do we transform this? What do we have to take away? What do we have to add? to make this something that fits within a non-clinical model. And we've done three trainings so far. I mean, we just were like three in and we're growing and changing and I'm, it's, I believe it's going to get sharper and sharper and better and better. But yeah, it's exciting.

So if someone were to go to a restoration coach, to your restoration coach trainings, two days, right?

It is two days online.

What would they expect to learn versus, like, say, let's say you're, like, level one trained therapist.

Yeah.

Level two. If they were to sign up for restoration coaching, like, I know you had Michael Cox on there the other last, in your last one, a few last week, like, what would, what would they be excited to learn about? Like, what are the different, like, things that I feel like coaching for a lot of people are probably listening. They probably don't understand what it is. I think I really like some of the talking about, like one being coaching is very. There's a regimen to it, right? Here's my 12-week program. I'm gonna take you through it. There is a high level accountability. I'm gonna Vox with you. I'm gonna check in with you. I'm gonna make sure you're doing it. So it's, like, very engaged. But, yeah. What would someone experience if they were going to your coaching training?

So, the gate is wide initially for the initial training. We assume someone doesn't have any restoration knowledge. And I had people in our last training who were in the skills stuff down in San Diego and were very acquainted in leadership in that, so know the model really well. We had people like Michael Cox. Michael Cox was really sitting second chair to me, but needed to go through the training. So I just said, hey, you can be a leader, but also you're gonna sit through the training. People who teach this model all the way over to people who have just gotten connected to Ron Deal's Mindful Marriage, and they're like, I don't know anything about this, but I know I want to learn more. So, like, no theory. So I am, as an instructor, working on the balance of what does it look like to teach the theory? Because we do teach the theory. I think that's really important. The gate is wide, and so we're teaching the theory integrated into that, however, is we try it on really quickly. So one of the things that we really wanted to make unique to the coaching training is we're not just learning the theory, we're jumping in and we're trying it, and it's going to be messy, but within the first half a day, people are in breakout rooms and they're trying on the theory. And specifically for a therapist, you said if someone's gone to a level one, we're really honing the skill of doing this in a non-clinical format. And what does it look like to deal with pain? Emotions come up, pain comes up. If we're asking people about their pain, they're going to talk about their pain. And so what does it look like to do that? What's the skills that we use? to hold this, acknowledge it, name it, make it real, but back off when it's getting too deep. So that's a skill that I would say for RT level 1, level 2 therapists that they would learn. And then we also add to it the different, we do a lot of work on what is the difference between restoration therapy versus restoration coaching. That's sort of sort of baked in. It's like an ingredient that seeps into all the different parts. I will say, the growing edge for me in the training is really thinking more creatively about giving people ideas for how to implement this in a coaching practice in a more formalized way. I think I can tell them about my process. There's just so much time. I mean, when you're teaching the theory, and you're giving people a practice, there's only so much space. And so, but I do think in the future, I think what you said, like, what are you wanting for the future? I would love this trading to also include, like, how do I actually do this in my practice? Because a 12-week thing is my thing, like giving people ideas and even, you know, specific things. Like, for example, as coaches, it's very normal for you to get outside feedback. A 360 is something in the business world that a lot of people who have received coaching get, which is a 360 is asking your peers, the people who work for you, your leaders, what they think of you. Where do you need to grow? And in the therapy world, we're like, you know, obviously, confidentiality, you don't often, even in the therapy room, we work really hard at not saying, oh, let your spouse talk about your coping. We really want the person to connect to what are they doing in the room. In the coaching world, we're like, you're signing up for growth. I have someone in, I have part of my Program is someone, if they're willing, I want you to reach out to three people who you trust and say, look at this list of coping words specific to anxiety. My coping sheet is specific to anxiety. coping in your mind, coping in your body and coping in your behavior. What do you see that I do when I'm stressed?

Oh my gosh. It's intense.

It's intense, but I think it's eye opening. And one of the critical steps that we do is I work with my client and say, okay, just because someone gave you feedback doesn't mean that it's A, true or B, something that you are ready to say, yeah, I want to take accountability for that. So that piece is still really important. But at least we get, you know, people are texting or reaching out or showing the sheet to their husband and their best friend and their sister, and they're sort of hearing the same things. When I get stressed, when I get anxious, this is what I do. I think it's really powerful. I think it's really powerful reflection. And then. So that's an example of something that I, you know, that I want to kind of integrate more into the training as we're going forward. One thing that we just started is I, I'm starting a consultation group for coaches who have gone through the training. So people who have done this training at various levels, they can sign up for a consultation group with me, and it's right now I'm just doing a six week consultation and we'll see how it goes. But it'll be like a small group and we'll kind of work out the principles in the moment.

So, yeah, I love that. I've never thought. I do this intervention with clients. I'll have them go to, like, their, like, four closest friends or, like, including family and the, like. And I'll have them, like, talk to them and ask them, like, who do you think I am working on? Identity work.

Yeah.

And then I'll always get them to ask, like, what's your favorite memory of me?

I love that.

So we get this feedback going like all these like really nice like like such a therapy like type thing. But I love like coaching's like, hey, let's jump in. Tell me all the bad things about me. I love it.

Tell me all this stuff. I mean, we do, I think I actually have something that you created, Lance, the four boxes thing where we have people like I'm forgetting what it is, but we, I have people connect to like, tell me your, tell me your group of people. When you say I'm not alone, who is the core people that you are thinking of when you claim you're not aloneness? And then, like, what activities can you do? Like, there's, there's, like, positive things that I have people go out to. But I think, I think anxiety in particular, people are disconnected to how people experience them because anxiety's job is to protect themselves from the world and from the people around them. So they're not super focused on how they're affecting other people because they're in such a fierce state and they're so myopic. So I think this work really helps them shed light on, oh, yeah, it's not just that my husband's quiet when I'm overly verbally processing. He's overwhelmed or he's feeling, right, there's a cycle there for him.

Yeah.

I love that it just opens up a good dialogue, right?

It does.

No, I was thinking that the guy who, because it's interesting how like RT is kind of baked in you and you start to see everything through the RT lens.

Yeah.

I remember in 2015, Hilton Hotel here, like a local had me come speak to their staff. It was like 35 people to do a two-day workshop.

Yeah.

I taught them the pain and peace cycle. in this corporate setting, which was challenging because you don't talk about emotions too much. So it was really raw and everything. But as I've worked on that, the guy who, Todd Sandell, who really trained me, who was trained at Fuller, who worked at the Hideaway, who is now a full-time coach, he uses a language of like understanding, how do I show up in a room? you know, how am I walking into a room and how are people like perceiving me? And sometimes we don't know unless we get feedback from other people of like, 100%.

Yeah.

And I like the freedom you have there, both of you. It sounds like I don't often think a lot in the therapy room here, the therapy room. Go out and ask these people these questions and come back and let's talk about it. But in coaching, I have no there's no qualms about that.

Like, I get.

Yeah, it's not interesting. People on a 360.

So that's.

I don't know. That's interesting. I don't know if that's a disconnect.

I don't know if. I don't know.

Maybe we can. There's a conversation around how is therapy different? How is coaching different? What are the boundaries? How are they.

Yeah. Or a conversation of what can coaching teach therapists? Honestly, because it's not a. If it's the client doing this in a therapy room, you're not breaking confidentiality. In a coaching setting, I get permission from them to say, I'm gonna send your boss a 360 on you. You're gonna tell me the people you're in charge of telling me the people you want me to connect with you on. And I'm gonna go reach out to them and get the feedback. And then I organize it and present it in summary form. so that it's helpful to them. That's a more formal 360. Within my anxiety program, it's a little bit more like, hey, you pick the people, you go show them this list of coping, and it's a little bit more like that. But to your point, right, when you're in therapy mode, red, we have this culture around therapy that we just like, it has to come from the client, it has to come from them. And I really think we can break that a little bit, I think. I'm seeing Terry break that, you know, over the years when you're like, the truth doesn't have to come just from them. We could suggest a truth and see how, I mean, that's in a different category, but, like, see how that fits. The coping doesn't have to just come from you. We can hold up a mirror. I personally will say, I mean, when I think about my marriage, my husband has been so helpful in helping me. Recognize my coping behaviors. I'm not like I like I'm not going to yell the top of my lungs where that's like really obvious when my coping is more like I'm terse or I'm really harsh, right? It's like that stuff where I'm not feeling or noticing that coping until someone holds up the mirror. I'm like, oh, yeah, there I am.

I love that. That's such a nice invitation for things. And, and, you know, God bless Jason. You know, he's a good guy. But, yeah, I I remember Terry, like, when I was doing practicum with him, he would have us do interventions like that. He would have us. He would, like, he would, like, we would have them do their four steps, and then their four step was, like, to ask for help. So Terry would be like, okay, you're gonna go in the room and you're gonna go. make sure this woman asks someone for help this week. And she's like, I can't do that. I can't do that. Well, that's what your four step is. And I remember this client we were working with. I feel like it's long enough ago. But anyways, changed a few details.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was a guy and very tall, very tall man. Fall man. Yes. And, and, you know, he, we had him, like, ask someone for help carrying stuff, and he found this amazing relief as he started asking people for help. And he's like, wow, this is something I can do. And it's like, from a, like, a place of peace. And he kind of, like, it worked. It was kind of this interesting factor of, like, doing your fourth step. reconize and then being where it highlights your truth more.

Yes.

You know, yes. I can't remember, you know, but, like, it would be like, if I asked someone for help, the person helped me. So now I know I'm not alone.

Yeah, I love that example. And I. It's the embodiment of it, and it's the working out of that fourth step. I am. I think something that I think a lot about is the fourth step. I think probably about the fourth step more than anything else. I think particularly in my coaching because at the end of the day, what are you doing? And yeah, I mean, that is such a good example. In my program, I have people, once we have your truths, I have people go through an exercise with each truth and identify what's an activity, a hobby or an action that really boosts this message for you? And that's exactly what you just mentioned, right? Oh, I can ask for help today. We're really putting experience out in the world, not just in the in the coaching office or in the therapy office. That's so good. Yeah.

And then if they come in, they didn't do it. It's an instant win because you can be like, oh, where were you in your pain cycle?

You know, it's like totally just drop it right in.

Wrap it right around.

Yeah.

Let me frame something up and you two tell me what you think. Cause I've been asking me a lot recently when they reach out to me, coaching versus therapy, right? And I know both licensing organizations say, don't do therapy or don't do coaching based on who licenses you, right? But sometimes I feel like therapy historically, I'm not saying But historically, therapy, there's a sense of we do a lot of digging in the past and we sit with things and feelings and there's tons of insight work, right? And I've people often think of coaching as like we set these goals and we move towards these actions and it's very future oriented. And I guess what I like about RT is we need to spend some time understanding this insight piece. because if we don't, if we don't understand those hidden emotional underlying issues, we're not going to have the ability to actually move into action. Right.

And so for me, RT, it'll be more empty action. Yeah. Yeah.

And we just can't come in here and say, let's do this, do this, do this. Unless we understand what's impeding that potentially, right? In terms of emotional issues or blockage. So I don't know. I guess I have found with RT, There's this, for me, it combines the best in terms of doing the insight heavy lifting work, but then moving us into practice.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, restoration coaching is a gift for the coach who's already practicing coaching and has to deal with emotions of their client, like the emotional dysregulation that happens. when their coachee shows up and their board meeting just blew up because XYZ or you're a parenting coach and yeah, you're helping with the skills of what are the skills in the developmental knowledge I need to help my client parent your four-year-old. But man, it would be really helpful to understand the emotional dysregulation that's happening in the parent that's dislodging them from being that calm, connecting, loving parent. So I think you're hitting the nail on the head and you're sort of speaking of it from that coach is like pure, pure coach perspective. So I, in my executive coaching community that I have, you know, just have made connections with people, this model to them is like, oh, finally, I have a way to talk about emotion and pain without doing therapy. Oh my God, like there is just a feeling of release for them because they didn't have they don't necessarily they might do like assessments on emotional intelligence and they hear emotional intelligence for a leader is hugely indicative of success. But there isn't really to my knowledge a great emotional self-regulation model for coaches out there who are living in that goal setting, let's work space. So I think you're hitting the nail on the head, Rhett. The people who are already in the RT world coming to coaching, there's subtle shifts and they're important shifts and they really are important. But if you have the theory and you have the practice and you have the baseline for it already, we're just nuancing that for the coaching world. And a lot of people, I think, who have come to this training are thinking, oh, maybe I want to formalize into coaching. Maybe I want to get more training in coaching. You know, we don't train people how to be a coach. We're just like basically taking the frustration model and saying, add this to your coaching. So people are doing that kind of in different ways, right? Maybe starting with the model first or coming in already as a coach. So, yeah.

And I think the model a lot I mean, honestly, in my opinion, the model allows you to move fluidly in two worlds where you can operate within the confines of a therapeutic relationship with our team model. And then you can move to a coaching relationship and operate within that coaching relationship and use our T and allows to you to be effective in both worlds and both connect to absolutely feelings, but then also move into new actions and behaviors into that truth. and that's what I love about it. It's. Yeah, there's some flexibility to it that allows you to. To do different things with it. That's why it's so powerful to me.

I I completely agree. I think it's. I mean, we're never going to get rid of restoration therapy. There is such a need for having space to do some deep emotional work and some. healing and be able to do those more intense interventions, right? Like re-parenting. That's really sacred work. But not everyone needs that. Yeah.

I'm really curious because like, that's the part where I'm like, wanna like kind of land for a second. Would that be okay? Yeah, totally. I was thinking about like, so what would that look like if I'm a coach? you talk about like we go into the feelings, but we don't go too deep, right? Which, you know, like that sounds interesting, right? And I think a lot of- and.

Your brain is probably like, what is your brain saying in that moment? Like how do I do, like what does that mean? Yes.

Well, actually I'm a seven on the Enneagram, so I am an expert at being very light.

Yeah, so coaching might be good for you.

I know, I'm like, wow, maybe this is it.

I know Lance and I are getting into conversations about death at the summit. He's like, oh my gosh, can we please stop talking about death? Like, I know. Let's talk about vacations.

Yeah, but it's Lance's work. He is like deep in the feelings.

I know he is.

That's the interesting paradox with you.

Yes. Well, I like to play. So I think sometimes with feelings we can play. and, and I also just keep going.

We sort of interrupted you. You're, you're like, yeah.

How do you go, how do you touch the feeling piece but not go too deep?

Yeah. Yeah.

That's, that was kind of my major thought was like, so, yeah. Train them and, and what is your like, and, yeah. What's, yeah. What are you noticing?

So the major work of our restoration coaches the organizational piece. And when we organize, we're connecting it to an identity, right, our love or a safety message. And so the stuff that you already know to do, many of our RT community know to do, the goal is to extract the emotional experience and put a name on it so that we can start to recognize it in other moments. Once I, so, How do you walk someone through a pain cycle? Right? Well, we all do it in our own way, but the art of it shows up differently based on you as a coach or therapist. But essentially, you know, one of the most basic ways is, you know, when you're in that place, what's the message that you get about yourself? Or what's the message you get about this relationship? And often they're looking at either a sheet of words or they're just thinking and they'll label it. Once they've labeled it, I feel really inadequate. I feel really incapable. When I'm in that assessment place, I will track it a little bit. Sharon does this historically and now Didi with Relate Strong. We can reference the past as a coach. We get to say, I want to check in. Does that feeling have any history for you? Is there a place where you felt that a lot in your life? Or is there a moment in time where you felt that a lot? in your life and people. Well, yeah, I grew up in a home where I was. I was only good if I was getting straight A's, and there's a time where I wasn't getting straight A's or whatever. I'm making this up, but they. They reference a moment. You're like, okay. And the work there is, you don't even have to do that as a Coach. Certainly in certain contexts, I may not even do it. I might say, when did you feel this in your business life? most recently if I'm working with an executive. But the goal of it is I want to reference the past to give it some legs, to give it some grounding. And then I'll do a little bit of like just general human work, which is acknowledging, reflect that, validate that. Okay, this makes so much sense. It's the stuff that we're already doing. I'm doing all of that. But where I stop is when the emotion comes up for them, or I don't say, okay, now that we have that story of, man, you're on that hamster wheel over and over and over again. You had to perform and perform and perform. If you didn't perform, your father withdrew from you. Go back to that little boy. Tell me about him. Do you hear my voice is changing? I'm shifting. I want to get connected to that pain. I want him, that Client, to get connected to that pain. I'm not doing any of that. That's where I stop. I say, oh, you got this message of I'm not enough unless I'm performing. That makes so much sense. Man, that sounds rough. Yeah, it was kind of rough. Okay, but this makes sense in the work in that business meeting now. This makes so much sense. So I'm going to put the word inadequate or incapable up here. And we're going to know there's some legs to this, but we're working on this right now. So, I mean, that's me just dropping into where I could go with that person, especially in the assessment and a therapy setting. I'm wanting to make alive more of that pain so we can do a little bit deeper work in the coaching setting. We're labeling it, we're referencing, I'm acknowledging it, I'm normalizing it, just enough to get them on board with the word. so that there is some validity there.

Because that's coaching versus therapy essentially. Therapy involves that, but coaching keeps us at this level.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What we say is we're not expanding negative emotion in the coaching model. Now, I always like to say like not intentionally expanding negative emotion. I mean, you're the leader in the room, but you're not in charge of someone's emotional experience at every turn. as far as it depends on me, I know when I slow my pace, I change my voice, I direct them towards visualization. We're all upping the emotional intensity of an experience. I'm not doing any of that in coaching.

Am I wrong? I can't remember, because you guys had a lot of different dialogues around this. Do you do body work though as well with it?

I do. I mean, I do more experiential work. When you say body work, I mean, they do postures for sure. I think the thing, the way I delineate it is I'm really trying to expand positive emotion. So when we're like in our truth and in our peace cycle, I'm like, we're gonna do body work related to the positive things. Like, show me your stance when you are capable. yeah, some things like that.

Nice. Cool.

Even like thinking and visualizing how you're going to walk into a room. Like if you're coaching somebody about a specific meeting, maybe that they're anxious, have anxiety about it's, you could get them up, of course, and, but some of it may be some visualization work along the way about how they want to present themselves in, in that, that different place, that truth place for them.

Absolutely. Yeah. And trying it on, I mean, I think, did I hear this from you, Rhett, in another podcast? Someone, I forget where I heard this, where you're, where we really just start doing the fourth step in the room. And you are that person. Like, I am your boss right now. And talk to me about how you want to bring up this desire for a raise or you're scared to ask for that vacation that in the culture where no one takes vacation. Okay, let's try it on. Let's practice. like putting on the fourth step in the moment is really powerful. That's coaching or therapy.

I don't know if that was me, but it sounds good. So I'll take credit.

It sounds good. I think it was. I think it was you.

Here's what.

Red is really big about vacation. Like, yeah, he, he, he, he is always thinking about vacation.

I I actually think Lance's head is. He's thinking about something right now, and here's what I think he's thinking is, how do I land a job as an RT coach with the San Diego Padres?

I can totally see you doing that.

Could you imagine that, Lance?

I would not turn it down. We actually, in my practice here, we have a guy, he's a clinical sports psychologist, and he works with professional sports teams. So I think about that.

Athletes too, right? Yeah. The coaching. a sports therapist, but there's like a coaching piece that's important in a athletic room or athletic team where they're not really doing therapists. They may have therapists already, by the way.

Right.

They're like the coach. And so, I mean, I think about the, I'll have athletes in here and this is interesting. Obviously what happens to you, like the kids are minors, so the parents, I mute the parents first. And they're like, if you can do anything to not like, make this feel like it's counseling, you know? Like it's more just like coaching my kid. But a lot of times with an athlete, you know, we'll have him visualize walking up to the free throw line. And what's the feeling you feel on the free throw line? Oh, I'm feeling like I'm gonna fail. Okay, when you feel like you're gonna fail, what happens? Well, I notice I start dribbling the ball less and I start like hyperventilating.

Right.

And then we'll kind of just visualize, okay, on that free throw line, what do you want to practice like telling yourself just over time? And as you tell yourself that, I want you to imagine letting the ball go. And to me, we're not getting too deep. This high school boy, maybe he's not ready to go too deep with the emotions, but we're just walking him through the four steps.

Yeah.

A sports context. And so, So good. I don't know where I'm going with that. There's lots of applications, I guess, is the point in terms of this coaching.

Yeah. Well, what you just said made me think, I'd love to clarify when I say we don't expand negative emotion, especially in my anxiety program, a lot of what I'm actually helping people to do is when they, anxiety is, we, in the RT world, in the restoration coaching world, we label it as coping. But I know when they start to grow and my clients start to grow, they will start to feel some anxiety, weirdly, because they're giving up some of their old coping mechanisms. And so when I say, like, I don't want people to feel negative emotions or we're not going to expand them in the coaching setting or in my anxiety therapy setting, the more you are living into your peace cycle, you're going to do new things, which means I'm going to feel a little nervous about that or feel some anxiety. And so even letting someone visualize that experience of walking up to the free throw line and standing there, they might feel nervous. That's not a bad thing. We're actually giving them practice. They might feel awkward in the room trying to talk to their boss, that's a good thing. We're pushing them through this experience. I do this with somebody who is having some test anxiety, right? We're gonna visualize the room that you're gonna take this test in. That's a good thing. That's practice. I love that.

Yeah, it's, I, you know, I would say if you, if you line up on the line to run the 100 meter dash, you should be nervous.

Right.

If you're, if you aren't nervous, something's probably wrong. Like the flip side of anxiety is also this like nervous energy we have. We've kind of labeled any emotion that's not happy and joyful as something's wrong with us.

And I've come to, yeah, I often, I totally agree. I often with my anxious clients, once we're through sort of the model of regulation, we start to see if we can add the word excitement.

Right.

I'm on that line, and I'm ready to. I'm ready to run or I'm ready to take off, and I feel some energy. Can I actually. Can I actually label that for, like, I'm actually excited about this, and I don't know how it's gonna go. How do I tolerate that?

I love that.

That's.

Yeah, it's like, that is a very much a truth, like, place versus, like, the. The pain place says, what if I fail?

Right. Absolutely.

Yeah.

I'm going to do my best and I'm excited, right? I think that's such a good, you know, to kind of look at the two different spectrums of it all.

Yeah. And the brain listens to that. I mean, the brain, if you say like, I'm excited, it'll look for excitement. Wait, am I? Yeah, I am. Oh, if I'm getting up to speak, right? I'm like, oh, my peers are listening to me speak. I feel some nervousness, but wait, I actually really enjoy getting up and getting to teach things that I'm learning. Can I like, can I step into that and sort of bounce my way into excitement and tolerate the unknown? The unknown is, you know, we don't know how everything, how is it going to land? We don't know. And that's so much of the work of anxiety is tolerating that unknown.

Yeah, I love, I love, did you guys ever read the book Endure by Alex Hutchinson. I'm sure.

Three times.

Oh, my gosh. I didn't even read this, apparently. Tell me.

I just got his new book that just came out. The Explorers Gene. It's cool. It looks awesome.

What's the guy's name?

Alex Hutchinson.

Well, yeah, actually, yeah.

I posted Instagram something about his new book, and I messaged on his Instagram comment. I said, read the book three times, and he responded. He's like, well, I hope you read my new book at least once. Yeah, that book Endure is awesome. But what were you gonna say about it? Just.

No, but he. There's so much stuff about, like, mindset and, like, when you go into things, like, having a positive mindset makes a huge difference. And even having, like, little talismans of, like. Like, this pen in my hand, when I hold this pen, I know that I can win, so.

And.

And to imbue this pin with the truth of that thing that we have can make a huge difference in how.

We.

Go through things.

I love that. I love that so much. I think, you know, you're talking and it's making me think about maybe the difference between some sense of stress versus anxiety, right? You were saying, when you're standing on the line, you're gonna feel you're gonna feel nervous, right? That means there's some level of like, you care about this. And I really want to push back against this culture that we're supposed to feel, we're supposed to feel nothing all the time, or we're supposed to feel happy all the time, or we're supposed to feel peace all the time. Like that is not a recipe for life. I mean, I think the thing that I get so passionate about working with my anxious clients is they're missing out on their life. Right, because they're trying to make it so safe. So ironically, getting people to do things, to show up, to do those things, it's like, yeah, you're going to feel this, but you're, you're gonna live. That to me is like, gets me out of bed in the morning. That's exciting.

Yeah.

There's a section in the book, which you've read it three times, so you probably have it all dialed.

Right?

Like, oh, that's page 57. Left paragraph.

Obviously, it impacted me, though.

But he talks about these Runners from, is it Kenya and, like, the Rift.

Valley, the high up.

Yeah.

So what they, they, what they would do is they would run as hard as they could every time they ran, and they, they wouldn't be pacing themselves. They wouldn't. be doing anything like that. What they would be doing is they would just push as hard as they could to see how far they could go. And they just keep on, like, testing their bodies. And that's how, like, all these records started falling because, like, we're finding the limits of the human body. And I always think about this, you know, like, that's amazing, like, how they were able to go about it. So to, to, like, playing it safe sometimes. makes it so that we get more of the same and maybe we become board therapists sitting in a room. I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think, man, the artsy community and what we are doing and what we are called to do is, is like, get up, move, push ourselves, like, try, try to create and explore and work. I mean, I'm so sensitive to the people who are like completely overperforming right now and who are like, okay, yeah, I just have to keep working 12-15 hour days and I just have to endure. It's like, that's not necessarily the message for those folks. It's probably more of a message for my makeup who is like, ultimately loves eating and sleeping and hanging out with friends that I have to like put myself in a position to work hard. My work, I'm like, ultimately on reserve unless, unless something happens. So I'm speaking about my own, my own work. Um, but I love that. I think that's, that's a word for me.

Well, I'm, I can see you thinking, Rhett.

No, I'm cognizant of the fact that we're all therapists and we all have like on the half hour hour meetings and we have this, like, I could go another like two hours with Megan right now. Cause now I, I want to talk more about anxiety, but. I think we should have her back on Lance here sooner than later and we can pick up our conversation if that's cool with everybody. But I think in closing, I'm like curious if there's something like you're super excited about right now, Megan, you're like, this gets me up, not lazy, it gets me out of bed, like I'm animated about this thing as it relates to your work, whether it's therapy or coaching or something with the RT model you're playing around with.

Yeah.

This is, I'm gonna go personal here a little bit and thinking about, I'm excited about anxiety and I'm the work that's happening there. And I'm really excited about the coaching and how that's going to be shaped. And I'm excited to make it better and better. Like, that's a really fun feeling to be like, how do. This is already here. It's already good. I think I'm an editor at heart. Like, how do I shape something to get better and better? So I have a lot of energy and excitement for that. I think personally, I am. I think the summit for me, when we were all in Amarillo, jolted me in a way that made me realize, like, I. I really want to be faithful to this. theory. And to do that, I need to change some things about my life. Like, I need to change some things about my practice, my practice life. And so I think the thing that I don't know if I'm excited about it, but I'm praying about it and I'm wondering, like, how do I shape my practice where I can be faithful to show up with the amount of energy it takes to be a restoration therapist and a restoration coach? So I know that's in a Lance and I chatted. I think we were driving to the airport. I was like, I don't know, Lance, I might have to break something in my practice. I have to break something. I don't even know what that means, but I think I'm excited and scared to be totally vulnerable of like, what has to change? And it might be as simple as, I mean, a little example is Megan, you can't see five clients in a row with the level of energy and work that you, some people can, but I think at my state and raising a child and, you know, running around town doing other things, seeing five clients in a row, it's not, it's actually not faithful to the model for me. And so I'm playing with, you know, how do you, what do I need to do to break some of this, these things? Because I'm often of two minds, right? I was like, the mind that's scheduling clients is a different mind than the self who's showing up in the room. I'm like, efficiency, get it done, you know, bring home money for your family, like, there's that Megan who's like scheduling, but then there's the therapist in the room or the coach in the room. And she's not in, they're not collaborating enough. They're not actually connected enough. So not really like a big fancy thing, but I'm, I really honestly, I feel like instead of shaming myself about not pushing myself to work harder, I'm actually want to set up my environment in my work where the best Megan gets to show up. And that's really honoring clients, number one, but honoring the theory, honoring like, yeah, at the end of the day, I want to bring my 9:00 a.m. client the same energy that the one o'clock gets. I want them to feel and get all of me, you know, as best as I can.

Awesome.

Michael Cox.

I know you're a coach. Practice again.

You said your grown up voice.

You're grown up voice.

That's my grown up voice.

That sounds like grown up voice to me.

It totally is, Lance. You're 100% right. That is my grown up voice. Because my pain voice would say, you,'re not enough. You're not strong enough. You're not doing enough. It's like, no, you are uniquely made. And at the end of the day, Megan, you're an introvert with only so much energy. And use the energy you have for what's what you can do. Sorry, I kind of stepped on you, Rhett.

Oh, I, that just, it made me think there's just something in the air around this, because even Michael Cox and I had like a five hour, 10 hour car ride both ways up to the RT summit. And when I left, I, that's, that resonates with me. And I think that that's birthed out of the model in the community, which is we have to do better work. We have to become better therapists. Like it's, if we're not doing our own work and we're not becoming better therapists and bringing that into the room, then what are we doing? And so there's something I think that we've all, we've kind of been birthed out of this model that like permeates, makes us, I don't know, I'm just excited. I love that you said that. Cause I'm like, oh, I'm, I am not alone.

You're not alone. Yeah, and instead of it, I think the shift for me is instead of it being like, oh, I'm challenged, like, I'm not enough. It's like, no, actually, I'm empowered and I'm empowered not just in the room to keep doing the work, but I'm empowered to structure my life in such a way that it works for me. Like, it actually is set up based on my schedule, based on the amount of clients I say yes to. It's hard to say no to a client, especially if the referral is from someone you want to say yes to. It's like, that's hard to say no, but if I'm saying no to this, I'm saying yes to the 15 other people that are on my on my roster, so to speak. So that's what I'm working. I'm working on this. I have not done it yet. I am like, you can check back in with me. This is my, this is my like, okay, God, what are we doing here?

I'm feeling bad now. I'm like going back to last night, we were at Disneyland with my daughter. My daughter was like, I think I'm ready to go home now. And we're like, no, Julia, we must do more. Don't you want to watch this show? This show is amazing.

It's gonna be so great. I love that. I have been there. I have been there at 3 p.m. at Disneyland and my son's like, let's go to the hotel.

What?

Yeah, been there. It's hard.

But like her, she has a grown-up voice right there.

Yeah, it totally does. Absolutely. Hey, I'm tapped out.

I don't have to push. I can call it.

I don't have to push.

Well, what if you and I keep Megan accountable, like good coaches, and we circle back to her in a month or so and find out what kind of things she's broken in her practice? How does that sound?

I can't wait to hear what's broken.

I love that. I love that. That scares me. And I'm excited. Right. I'm on the starting line. I can feel it. It's good.

All right. Well, hey, it's good seeing you two. And we will connect soon. Have a good day.

I love hanging out with you guys. Thank you guys for having me.

Cheers.