https://www.listennotes.com/e/a03f915b394b47819ae3bc7e238cdaf7

What'S up, Lance?

Hey, man. Happy. Happy day. Saturday. Saturday.

Saturday morning. I think people know we record video, too. That's why I have a hat on. Because it's Saturday morning, and I did not feel like doing my hair.

Yeah, it's a. It's a thing, bro.

It's a total thing.

I like have my head like underneath the sink.

Show people your cool San Diego hat.

Yeah guys, baseball season's back. Sure everybody's listens to these first moment they drop and yesterday. Apologies.

It's almost like an aqua, like a teal slash.

They call it mint. Yes, it's it's the City Connect Jersey and yeah, so we it's supposed to be an ode to the city of San Diego and its closest city friend Tijuana.

Yeah.

So that's awesome.

That's a cool hat. Yeah.

Love it.

Also, what do you see here?

Yeah.

Amarillo, baby.

Tanner, I'm drinking out of the mug that you and Jett gave me of Amarillo from the Summit. so.

And I'm drinking all the Seattle mug. I don't know if that means the summit's going to happen there sometime, but all of our Seattle RT therapist.

Yeah, there's some good connections up there. Well, so you and I had a conversation that hopefully everyone is listening to with Ron Deal.

Yeah.

This week on the podcast, and he ended with that metaphor of the scuba divers and emotional regulation versus co-regulation or self-regulation versus co-regulation which led to a little bit of a flurry of emails afterwards too. And I started thinking, let's, I'm like, let's have a conversation about what self-regulation is versus co-regulation because it's significant. Yeah. and as therapists, we're either helping clients move towards probably one direction or the other. There are specific models that favor one over the other.

Right.

Culturally, we see an aspect of regulation all over the place. And so I thought it would be worth unpacking.

Yeah, I think that would be a good goal today is to just you know, and I think it's something that we can play with that metaphor or we could even look at the cultural. I feel like we could probably dive into a little bit of all of them today and just kind of give people a little bit of a. I think it's really important to know that, like, self-regulation when it comes to emotional regulation is like, that's where we're hanging our flag.

Yeah.

And so, and I think you had, you gave a good definition to Ron via email, I'd like. if you don't mind taking a stab at it, will you describe to the audience what emotional regulation is, what self-regulation is versus co-regulation and I'll jump in there. But I think I like the framework and the way that you, I don't know, just talked about how those things differentiate from one another.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, this is the big thing that we're seeing in therapy now. this is, we know in therapy, it's not enough to know about our past, right? We know that's not enough. Like we can't, insight isn't the finish, the finish line. And there's so many people I've spent a ton of money in therapy that haven't gotten better. Because what we've done is we've been there, we've talked to them, but we haven't actually helped them to figure a way out. And the way out is emotional regulation. Emotional regulation, all emotional regulation is being able to have this ability to ratchet down the stuff that's going on inside of you, to be able to slow that down so that you're able to engage. And with emotional regulation, just like. I feel like this is kind of like when you're dealing with, think about, like, different churches, you know, like the Methodist, you know, the. We're the United Methodist. We're the free Methodist, you know. Sorry, that's my background.

No, there's all these branches, right? It's like, every. I always say for every Bible Church in one corner, they were planted because they broke from the other Bible Church just down the street. Yes. Over something. So there's all these branches that come out of this like tree.

Yes. Well, our tree branch is the one of self-regulation. And I feel like it's on that similar, it's on a similar branch and I think it gets misconstrued a lot of times. But the idea behind like self-regulation is that When we are activated by our surroundings, that we need to find a way to help ourselves to be able to engage in our world in a holistic way. And what self-regulation is seeking to do is help you to find a way to help yourself versus what co-regulation is. Co-regulation says when you get triggered or when you're activated, that the way I get out of trouble is I can lean into my secure attachment. That's EFT's kind of thing. Yes, we're talking about EFT today, by the way.

Yeah, so Sue Johnson, the founder of EFT.

Yeah.

One of the ways that you regulate yourself emotions is through co-regulation by connecting to that secure attachment, which is your partner.

Yes.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's very beautiful. I want to say this. I think EFT is such a beautiful model. I got to practice it for a few years with Dr. Sheri May, who I have to say, if you see her in therapy, absolutely. I mean, she's like, she blows Sue Johnson socks off. I mean, the way she is able.

Which is hard to do because if you've ever seen Sue Johnson do therapy, it's pretty unreal.

But they're both South African. Okay. So they both have that way of talking with that. I don't know. The South African voice of that accent is just absolutely amazing in the way that it holds a person, right? And that's the whole mentality around.

The.

Co-Regulation that they're doing is that the idea is that we have a bad attachment to our person, right? We have a bad attachment to our person and we need to have a good attachment with our person. And if we had a good attachment with our person, then we would be better, right?

Yeah.

It's all about all we need is secure attachments. If I'm connected with you right now, Rhett, and I'm making eye contact and I'm really in tune with you, then we are okay. Yeah.

And if I start breaking eye contact with you and not paying attention, then you are not okay.

Yeah.

And then I get anxious, you know, it's kind of like the classic one, anxious or avoidant, like, you know, fine. Or we get fearful, right? Or disorganized and we're like, come here, go away, come here, go away.

Yeah.

That's the classic. And I think there's, elements of that that we see in restoration therapy because we do talk about attachment.

Right, right.

But EFT says the goal is to find secure attachment with your person. And that's where we digress, I would say.

Yeah.

And this conversation, you and I, I mean, I think we wanted to have it because it's gonna be a little bit messy as we kind of talk through some of this. And as the person's listening, I want them to think about their own practice as a therapist or if they're not a therapist, just their own relationships. And what's interesting because I left Fuller Seminary in 2007, that's when I graduated. So I have a Dr. Furrow, Jim Furrow, who I love, who's big EFT guy, right? I mean, he's one of the big, big trainers around the country and the world, you know, basically helping Sue Johnson do stuff. And so at Fuller, when I was there, you're kind of learning EFT going EFT route. And then the other big one was like just basic, I call it basic, but just like CBT.

Yeah.

I feel like those were the two branches in the program. And then if you get out into your practicum, it's kind of a hodgepodge of things. But then you, whatever, you're there when Terry comes along and now it's not just EFT as a main Right. There's now RT and these two theories, which are both beautiful, start to diverge at a specific point. And one of the points, I'm sure there's others, but one of the points that they diverge is restoration therapy, like you said, hangs our hat on the ability to emotionally self-regulate. And EFT hangs its hat on the ability to emotionally co-regulate. Is that fair to say?

I would say that. I would say like it is about being that, just, and being that person. And the reason they, like, we were talking about this in the email about like the, we like Restoration Therapy would say the reason we're in trouble is because I am in my pain cycle, right? And, and if I am in my pain cycle, then I need to take individual responsibility to get myself out of that. EFT would say that we are in the cycle. It's like this, like it, it kind of puts the, it really has, it doesn't have a big responsibility piece in it. And this is why it gets so troubling for when you're in therapy. It's like, it's all the cycle's fault.

Right?

It's the cycle. See, it's the cycle's fault. Which, you know, then we talk about the cycle. You see, I was in my cycle. I was in the cycle, and that's why I was messed up. So it doesn't have a high level of responsibility attached to it because it's all about like learning to connect with one another versus taking responsibility for yourself. So that'll be like another piece I would add in.

Yeah. There's a responsibility piece, individual to manage your own emotions rather than your partner being responsible to manage those for you in some way. Right.

Which this is where Terry gets into the big piece. And this is what I really want people to hear today. That if you are doing co-regulation, you are teaching your clients to parent one another. Okay? You are teaching your parent, your. Your. Your clients to be each other's mother or father. Like, you are coming alongside them and you're carrying for them like a mother or a father.

Right?

That is. That is not what we.

I.

And it's beautiful, right? It's such a wonderful thing to hold. you know, I have my, I have this little stuffed animal here and I can hold you. I see.

For those who are not watching video, Lance is holding a little, what do you call those things?

A stuffy.

Okay, a stuffy.

Stuffed animal.

Yeah.

Or beanie baby, I think is what it actually is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But like, I can hold it and I'm there with you right now. And, you know, it's very like, but it's like a parenting gesture, Right? Versus, and I love that it's, I think it's called anagram. You have to correct me. I'm not, it's parenting versus partnering, right?

Yeah.

And, and I think to become a mature lover in a, in a, in a relationship, to be intimate with one another, this is where we go to that scuba analogy.

It's like, yeah, the analogy, if you haven't heard that Ron used on the last podcast episode, Yeah.

Do you wanna talk about it?

Episode seven with Rondell. Well, let's talk about that first. Let me, before we go there, I wanna ask you a question though. So let's just say I'm listening and I'm practicing EFT and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, Lance, I'm not teaching people to parent one another. Like, what do you mean? Like, I would imagine there'd be some pushback on that. Like, I think that would probably appall some therapists to think, no, I'm not setting up people to parenting one another 'cause they might actually disagree with that themselves if they heard the language of parenting, you know? But what you're saying is that anytime there is a dynamic where one person is responsible for the other person's emotional regulation, it has shifted from a partnering relationship to now I'm having to parent you. I got to make you feel better. I got to help you calm down. I got to help you be non-anxious.

Right.

Which is something we do with our kids. We, yes, I think, yeah, it's proper. And I think, I think of it in terms of like scaffold scaffolding and some of the research out there with parenting, right? In the beginning, as kids are younger, you come alongside them and you parent them in ways to help them learn how to manage their emotions. You might intervene, walk them through a breathing exercise, help them understand how they feel, help calm them down in some ways, like you're, you're just showing a I stuffed the animal, but I might pick up my kid and hug my kid and hold them tight. But as they age, that scaffolding comes off and eventually they have to learn how to emotionally self-regulate. Because imagine this, like a kid's 18, he's off in college, she's off in college. They need to have the ability to emotionally self-regulate. Otherwise, call up mom and dad, I gotta fly out there and calm them down.

Right.

That's parenting.

That is parenting. Yes. And what we're trying to do is we're trying to help our clients to parent themselves.

Yeah.

This is why we do the reparenting technique where we start off with a, it's like a three phase piece where you have your client, you have their pain cycle dialed down. and it's all in front of you and you're taking those feelings and you're going back to a story that's adjacent to having them talk to, you know, someone that would have been a similar age to them when they were in the midst of their struggle. And then you have them go back to that child that was hurt.

Themselves.

And talk to themselves as a child. And then there's that key trick. to have them talk to themselves now in the room. That is self-regulation where you're re-parenting yourself, not having your partner come across and talk to you. Yeah, quick technique too, for those of you that are listening, if you're doing re-parenting on your computers, you can actually have them look like to like, so.

If you're doing a video session.

Yeah, if you're doing a video session online, because I feel like we have to do a lot of online therapy.

We do.

You know, to have them make themselves big in this screen and have them actually look at themselves and say, you know, Lance, you know, you're still called Lance. You were very loved. Lance, it's going to be okay. You know, God is in control to speak to that person.

Can I use another metaphor before? I know we'd mentioned scuba, so it's coming. It's coming, folks. But another metaphor just personally, like, because I've done a lot of therapy, like, been the client in my own life, lots of it. I've had lots of great therapists, but there were many years I don't think I was making progress. And I would describe my marriage early on as I'm gonna stand up here. My wife had to, like, prop me up.

Okay.

Like. Like, if I'm a. If you picture a building, she has to. She has to hold up a wall. Otherwise it falls over. Like, on that wall. Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yes, in my marriage, I depended on my wife to, like, prop me up, to hold me up, as if I'm this.

Building.

So she's using her hands, she's using her power, her energy to hold me up, which leaves nothing for her. Like there's no free hand to take care of herself or to manage her own stuff because she's spending her energy making sure that I feel good, right? That I'm okay, that I'm affirmed enough, that she tells me that I'm good enough, that she's giving me the love language, and she's doing all this stuff. She's holding me up. And that's exhausting to be in a relationship with someone like that. Yeah, it's exhausting. That's a parenting relationship. And I, at this time, I mean, I'm, at this time that I think I have started thinking about this, I was in my early, the mid 30s. And then I go into a session with a therapist, shout out Rick Carson in Dallas, who, Mickey, what's up? Who is one of the most unbelievable, just experiential therapists who trained under some of the greats back in the day.

And.

We're in session and.

I mean.

I've spent years in therapy talking about the death of my mom and we're only a few sessions in with him.

And.

He pulls up the empty chair next to me and I'm like, oh, what's going on here? And basically has me close my eyes and walk into that classroom in fifth grade the first day I went back to school after my mom died. And to feel what that was like to walk into the classroom with like kids eyes on me and sitting down because that's the day I started to stutter when teacher called on me. And so he had me just literally pull up a chair next to the 12 year old version of myself, the 11 year old version of myself and He's like, what do you want to say to him? And I just started crying and I'm like, you,'re going to be okay. You're going to... That's just what came to my mind. You're going to be okay. Like, I just started bawling. And it's like some weight fell off me. I can't even describe it to you. And I walked out of session and I called my wife and I said, My life has been forever changed. Like, I'm like, Something happened in therapy today. And I'm not saying I had it figured out, by the way. I'm not saying I don't have expectations of my wife to still prop me up sometimes. But something shifted where I realized, and this is before I had RT language, really. The irony of it all is that therapy session happened in the same week that I went up to the hideaway and learned the pain and P cycle for the first time. But we weren't even using some of the RT language. This is 2010 and I hadn't been at Fuller to study under Terry. So something shifted and I realized I have to be responsible for myself. And when I'm responsible for myself, that creates space for my wife to come alongside and be her full self in relationship to me. Before there was no space for her. because she's holding me up. And I can't say any better way than that, but like I think about that, you know, that differentiation of self there that created space for her. And again, I don't have this mastered or figured out perfectly. I think I'm getting better, but I have my own challenges over the years where I fall into patterns and habits, but I I realize, like, I have to be responsible for my emotions and who I am, and I have to show up as an adult in the relationship.

That's huge.

Yeah.

I mean, like, when it's. When it's a co-regulation this is a. I have to model, right? I have to do all of these things. I have to hold you up all the time, Rhett. Like, I have to do that.

Right?

Like, that's. That's that Dynamic where we. We fall into the relationship, and this is what happens. so much time with our couples. It's almost reinforced by EFT, but what happens in EFT is it just shows you a nicer way to do it, I feel like, where you can learn how to hold your spouse without, like, the vitriol of, like, I need you to just, you know, it's. You're more attuned to know how to do that for your partner, but it doesn't free you up. I love that idea of like, it doesn't free you up the way that you were free, the way that Heather was freed up there in that place.

Well, in some of the obvious things that we see in therapy or in just our personal and lives of friends and neighbors and stuff is that when we fall into patterns of co-regulation, I'm going to find if my spouse is not meeting that need, right, they're not regularly. I'm going to find it somewhere else. So I might find it in another relationship, in an affair. I might find it in a hobby that affirms me and makes me feel good about myself.

Right?

Yeah.

I may find it in work. Work is affirming me and helping me regulate my emotions. I might find it in a sport team, not the San Diego Padres, but I might find it somewhere.

Padres were good for me last night.

Right.

Do you have any other examples of like how we, when we're not regulating ourselves in a relationship, where we find that?

Oh my gosh. So right now, I don't know if you have this with your clients. We're in California, so I feel like, you know, we're like six years ahead of Texas.

Yeah, it depends on what, man. But you are, you are ahead.

But clients going, this is scary, man. clients going to chat GPT and saying what happened in the argument and asking chat GPT what it is, like what they should do. And no, I've had that.

Yep. Yeah.

Okay, good. I mean, not good, but like, are you kidding me? Chat GPT is going to be your source. And then chat GPT, of course, is going to say, Well, of course you're right.

Yeah. Well, because their model probably is one of co-regulation.

Yeah.

I don't even know what you call AI regulation.

Yeah.

And an AI model who indexes the web and material is probably going to pick up that the way, if you're in a relationship where your partner is not meeting your needs or not co-regulating you, it's not a good relationship.

Yeah, yeah. I would also say that the other one is, and this is the one that happens a lot with people, I think it happened with me and I see it a lot, where the parent pours into the child. So we have these relationships where they're so longing to be loved. They're so longing to be loved. And the easiest place that they can find that love is that little child that they gave birth to. And that little child knows how to love them exactly the way they want them to. So we get these, you know, unhealthy, you know, Oedipus relationships where, and this is why if you look at your client loads, you will notice that there's a ton of clients that come in at the 20 year mark. because that relationship is being severed and they've poured themselves into their, their kids for so long. And that's been.

Yeah, well, that's that transition. A lot of clients where they have a kid about to head off to college.

Right.

And you're about to have that.

I am about to have that. I'm aware. I'm like, my wife and I talk about that, that Dynamic a lot, and. You know, it happened, I don't hear this a lot in therapy, I'll hear a spouse. Now it's more often a wife, I will say, or the female partner. I feel like I have three kids. When she really has two kids, but her husband, she's including her kid.

Right.

So she clearly communicates by saying, I have like, I have three kids, that she feels responsible to parent this adult man.

Right. Which is ridiculous.

Yeah.

And I always say, well, that's ridiculous.

Yeah. So people aren't crazy because this shows up in culture a lot, right? This is the message.

Yes.

That if you just took a second to tune your ears to you'd hear it everywhere. So what are some examples do you think you hear culturally of like, co-parenting your partner is the way to go.

Well, I think, first off, if you turn on, you know, I think last session we were talking about Jerry Maguire, you know, like, I think it, like, you see so many movies and things like this where it's like, you are my everything, right? And there's a big language and culture today talking about compatibility, right? if the clients will come in like, I just don't think we're compatible anymore.

Yeah.

If you're talking compatibility, you're talking about co-regulation, right?

Yeah.

Because you don't have inside of you to do what I need you to do, right? So there's this big conversation about compatibility. I would say, I mean, you gotta love all of our songs, like you're my everything, you know, you know, just.

The.

All the boy bands. Sorry, I'm kind of 90s, early 2000s right now.

Backstreet Boys in sync. 98 degrees.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, and you mentioned Jerry McGuire. So the famous phrase, you complete me.

Yeah.

Right, that is one of co-regulation, a parenting relationship.

Right. Yeah.

Which to me, that puts so much pressure on the person.

Yeah.

And, you know, I remember when I was at Fuller Seminary, they were looking for in. This is a company looking for interns of a new company that started off. And this is 19 when I was on campus there in 2001. It was e. Harmony. The dating.

Right. Yeah.

And they match you up to 27. I think it's 27. It's 27 components of compatibility, right? And I remember looking at the research of it after they had had about a decade or more of tracking it. And some of the research coming out, what they found was that the compatibility piece actually was causing problems long term, right?

Really?

Yeah.

Because What happens- They need to be harmonized. Yeah, because what happens, right? What happens when there's conflict and you feel like you're a person, I thought we were compatible in these areas. Now you're not being compatible with me. You're not doing these things for me. You've made your partner responsible then for your sense of self. And the relationship started to fall apart.

Right. Yeah.

That's so funny. Well, I didn't know that part. That's interesting.

Yeah, I'll pull up some of that data and research, you know, and that's not a knock against online dating or some of these tools are really great. You can use eHarmony or any of the dating apps and go into it with a sense of, yeah, we are compatible in a lot of areas, but I am responsible for managing my emotions, self-regulation.

Well, and I think there's this place where we are compatible, but we don't embrace that we are going to change. and I can't remember, Terry was telling me about this. I think like every seven years, like we change, like we're completely different, right? If you look back at yourself seven years ago, your hobbies, your closest friends, you know, your sports team, maybe not your sports team, that some things are really ingrained, but like you're changing, right?

Yeah.

And that's gonna happen. So yeah, you might have been compatible in that moment, But how are you going to change? Right? What is, what is your future?

Right.

And I think this is where we get so lost. It's like, you know, you get that couple like, yeah, you changed, man. You changed. And like, yeah, yeah, we're supposed to. It's how that matters.

I think they say it's something like the entire lifespan of a cell in the human body is like seven years. I think there's something like that. So from a biological perspective and someone, someone listening will probably make make can like correct me there, but I think that that's a component. We are different people.

Yeah.

What explain the scuba metaphor since we teased it out earlier. This is Ron Deal playing around with a metaphor. He had emailed us and we talked about in the last podcast, but we thought it was a beautiful imagery of co-regulation versus self-regulation.

Right. So and then we'll have to do this together because I'm still figuring it out myself. This is why we're having this podcast is to be more. So I even imagine there's people listening to this right now. I want you to engage with us as we're talking because this is something that we're certainly discovering together. If you have good comments or things, we would love to hear it on the show. But the imagery that he was using that in scuba diving There's that thing that, and do you scoot it up?

My wife and I started to go through the lessons then COVID hit. And so we couldn't do a couple of the components, but yeah, there's the regulator essentially, right? That regulates your breath and oxygen. So you and I aren't as equipped to talk about some of the intricacies of the scuba, but yes, there's the regulating mouthpiece, right? That you control as a scuba diver to regulate your oxygen flow.

Right, so that thing that you need when you're underwater goes in your mouth and you're breathing in and out of it. And when that, I guess there's this thing called the, I'm really butchering this, but when you lose, like if your buddy loses their ability to breathe, like they run out of oxygen or whatever, they can come to you and say, I'm out of air. Right? So they come in, I'm out of air. So then what you do is you share your regulator. You have to hold a breath and then you pass your regulator to your buddy and then they can hold a breath and then it's they're holding it and then but you're having to share the same line for oxygen.

Right?

And which means you have to be very aware of what's going on inside of the other person. also what's going on inside of yourself. And you're using this regulator back and forth, and it can feel, you know, pretty precarious. And he was saying that basically when we're trying to co-regulate, we're trying to figure out how to get oxygen into one another.

But.

We'Re not, but we're getting into this idea that how are we supposed to still enjoy the depths together and we can enjoy the depths together when we're trying to, we just need to get up. We're in a survival mode.

Yeah, and it gets messy. I mean, he talked about even the lines could get tangled up. You know, you are so busy co-railing each other that you miss seeing things around you.

Yeah.

It's not an enjoyable shared experience. He went as far to say that, you know, one of the first rules in scuba diving is not to leave your partner either.

Yeah.

And so- Racing Turtles. yeah, exactly. So the ability to, you know, a good partnership is to stay in relationship with one another.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's cool, man. We are a casual podcast.

Oh, we're cold.

Yeah.

Do I say hi to everybody on the podcast, Julia?

Hi.

Hey, how's it going?

This is my sweet daughter, Julia. Do you want to go ask?

Well, there's Mommy.

She's in the bed.

Go get her.

Okay.

All right.

Can you just do me a favor and feel my head and tell me.

If it's hot or fine? I think you feel okay to me. Do you wanna how about check with Mommy and then I think you're okay though. Maybe drink some water too.

All right.

Can you shut the door? I love you. Parenting.

Dude, as I was just thinking, perfect. I appreciate she walked in.

Yeah.

That'S parenting.

Yeah.

And how old is she?

She is almost seven. So. Um.

And what's the difference if your wife knew, right? Maybe you're on a podcast, right? Or something. She would, I'm just playing this out since it happened, you know, like she would, she'd be okay. She'd like, I'll talk to him when we're done and, you know, things are good and I'm fine, I'll be okay. Unless it was an emergency, right?

If it were an emergency, we had to go right up to the top. and I'd say, yeah, Rhett, well, speaking of emergencies, I gotta get outta here.

Yeah. But that's parenting. She's, the hell is she?

She's almost up, she's six and like, mm-.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, we like to be experiential and that's a good metaphor example right there.

Yeah, well, it makes sense she gotta be a part of the podcast. I think that's really, yeah, my son.

Probably won't walk in because it's only 11 o'clock here and he's probably still sleeping.

Oh, yeah.

You know another example outside of the scuba diving piece too, as I was just thinking.

Oh.

Let'S finish off the thing though.

Yeah, go.

Because I think this is the important part is that when you have your own regulator, and I think this is the beautiful part that I really like, is when we have our own regulator and we have our own oxygen, we can actually explore deep together and enjoy everything together.

Well, you use the word of being a lover, right? A lover is not a parent. A lover is someone that you go deep intimately with sexually and non-sexually. And you can't explore the depths together spiritually, intimacy, like you can't explore the depths together if you're co-regulating.

Yeah, if I need you to fix me constantly, then I get to experience you on that same level. Like I was parenting Julia there. Like it doesn't go to the depths. And I think that's what happens. And I think honestly, what I have noticed and, you know, is that with a lot of my old EFT friends that were doing EFT is they've actually changed models a lot. to trying out internal family systems, right?

Yeah.

And these different models that are more in that reign of regulating or taking care of the self. So I think Terry was right, guys.

Shocker.

Yeah.

This is Terry was right.

This is a trustworthy branch on the tree. Yeah.

And, you know, I think when you look at the field of marriage kind of therapy, it's moving in a couple different directions, right? And I think what we're saying is there's a huge component going towards co-regulation and there's another component going towards self-regulation. And it's okay to explore both of them, but I think your experience in the room, especially with couples, right? And not just couples, individuals, because individuals have to leave your office and go home to a family system will give you good feedback in terms of what's working and what's not working. I'm also a huge fan of, you know, he's passed away several years ago, but David Schnarch and his work around passionate marriage and, but He talks a lot about more, I think, than anybody about differentiation of self and the importance of managing your own anxiety and managing your own emotions. And I just finished the book Shift by Ethan Cross, who runs the lab, the Emotions Lab, up at University of Michigan. Now, he doesn't get in necessarily to language of self-regulation or co-regulation, but I think I would, my bet is if I have a conversation with him, he would be a proponent of self-regulation that we are responsible to shift our emotions and to manage that.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think, yeah, I think that's the way things are moving. Even, I don't know if you got into Inside Out 2 yet, you know, speaking of anxiety. Did you watch that one yet?

I have not watched it yet. I know I should. I know you've talked about Nicole Sosnowski has talked about it and I think written about it a little bit.

Yeah. But the, that, the cool part about that movie is they, they're drawing this beautiful illustration of, like, what happens when our emotions go Haywire.

Right.

And when we, when we allow our emotions to, to run our days, we are constantly burdened to them.

Right.

Versus the cool part of, like, and I'm going to ruin the movie for you.

It's okay. It's been out forever, so ruin it. Yeah.

I'm so sorry, Rhett. But when we have a strong sense of self and who we are and what's going on around us, that is when we can draw up healthy, finding an ability to be in touch with our emotions, but not being run by our emotions, which is so much more powerful.

Mm-.

Like, if I need to grieve, I can grieve from, from a sense of, like, I know I need to grieve right now. If I am, you know, if I do need to be aware of something coming up in the future, I can draw it up from a, from a, from that core sense of self instead of that sense of, like, my, my anxieties tell me I need to take care of something or my anger is telling me I need to take care of something.

Yeah.

And I I'm glad that there are models or images, I guess, stories out there that you're seeing in public too that demonstrate more of that self-regulatory piece because we're so inundated with the other way. And before we hopped on this call, I was talking about even how I love the book, the Five Love Languages. I love Gary Thomas's book. It's been super helpful when my wife and I realized, oh, We speak a different language and we were trying to speak the language that is ours to one another and that wasn't really working.

Yeah.

And so what I tell couples in session is the love language is great, but if you fall apart emotionally because your spouse isn't giving you your love language consistently or that day, that's co-regulation. Yeah. You're making them responsible for your emotional state. because they either are affirming you or not affirming you or giving you quality time or not giving you quality time, right?

I think about physicality. You know that's my love language, baby. You're not giving it to me.

Oh, man. And I think there's a fear.

That.

We'Re missing out on something in a relationship if our partner is not doing certain things. We're missing something. And I think what I want to say to people is, when you emotionally self-regulate and you show up as an adult in your marriage, as a grown-up and your partner is doing that, it creates the space for you both to be able to freely give and receive from one another. I think those, those things that you so deeply desire.

That's the beauty, right? That is the beauty of when we are able to actually have that whole being self-regulated and be able to come in to an experience and be able to actually wholly be a part of it, not just being torn apart in ourselves. So yeah, I think you're absolutely right, brother. Yeah, I.

Think it's snarcs or even Gottman, but they talk about Mary, I think it's snarsh, marriage being a people growing machine. And I think Terry in the humility of marriage talks about marriage relationships teaches us to grow up. And part of being a grown-up is that we take responsibility for our emotions.

Yeah.

And we regulate ourself. And there are times, right, because you care for your wife, I care for my wife. that I may have to, I need to step in, I need to help because there's situations going on. There might be seasons where one of us is helping the other person along because maybe they're struggling through a season of depression or going through a hard time. And we help carry that with one another, which is part of partnering. But if we stay in that position and make them responsible for it, then that's not healthy.

No, no. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think that's.

Yeah.

And I think that's important for us to know is, like, it's okay to seasonally recognize that in the balance of give and take that there might be a season of difficulty. You know, I remember when I went back to school, like, that put a toll on the marriage.

Right.

But there's this idea that in the toll that it's taking on the marriage, that there will be a return on the end where we're able to give back. Yeah, I think you're right. And I think there's this place where that, that, that hope that we have with one another that we will find, like we will grow into that person that we're called to be.

Yeah. Yeah. And.

Yeah, you're just. I don't know. You're just. When you're man, when you, you know, when you're take responsible for your emotions and you back to RT, you know, each other's pain and peace cycle, I'm able to step in, even with my wife and just speak truth into her. And as I speak truth into her also, she can help her emotionally self-regulate Right. I can not coming alongside and and caring that all for her. And so there's a lot of nuance around this, but at the end of the day, it's about being an adult in a relationship and taking responsibility for yourself. And when you do that, man, you can have a really deep and fulfilling and intimate relationship.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah, we're in the conversation. So we had this email conversation a while back and Terry was talking about like that what happens when you allow, when co-regulation is brought into the forefront of as a good solution, what ends up happening is that it really invites laziness in the relationship where you can get into that place where you're just chilling, waiting for the other person to do their thing.

Yeah.

Versus what you're saying there is like, if I have individual responsibility or self responsibility, there's always something I can do to be made whole.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so good.

Yeah.

Laziness. That's a good one.

What?

Let's. Let's turn a corner here and let's talk about both, let's call it faith.

Yeah.

Faith components and maybe non-faith components in terms of where we see the invitation to emotional self-regulation either show up like in, in the Bible or maybe other literature or movies or anything that came to mind. You just mentioned inside out, too, right? As an example of of that, right? And you and I know that there are many people listening to this who come from a faith background who are Christians, who work with Christians and non-Christians and people of all backgrounds in faith. We believe RT is beneficial no matter what background people come from.

Yeah.

But you and I are deep into our faith and Christianity is an important component of that. And so we were just thinking about where that shows up in the Bible, like self-regulation are there any stories or images that pop out to you?

You know, I think about the, the, one of the places I'm thinking about right now is in Galatians, where it talks about, you know, the fruits of the Spirit. Before that, it talks about, you know, the, what happens. What is it called? Like when It's not the fruits of the spirit, but the, it's like his other name for it. But like it just names all the things when we're not, when we're in basically. And I think about this idea of like the fruit of this, it's the fruit of the spirit. And what happens a lot of times in our couples work is like they're trying to mark all the fruits that, see, I'm loving, I'm gentle, I'm faithful, I'm kindness, I have self-control, which is important to have. But it's, it's this marker of where it comes from. It's fruit of the spirit, right? And I think this idea of being self regulated, I've been playing around this idea of being soul regulated. Like, is my, is my soul regulated? Um, and am, am I in this place where the spirit, where I'm allowed, where I'm being led by the spirit, or am I not being led by the Spirit right now? And so yeah, that was one of the... What about you? What are the... CB: well, and it.

Comes off of Galatians 4, which is about the old self and new self, right? So there is our ability to take off the old and put on the new, right? To emotionally regulate in itself, to step into that allows us to move into the fruit of the Spirit.

Right.

There's a flow to the text there. I love that. I was thinking even in just the beginning of scripture in Genesis 1 through 3 in the first opening chapters that, you know, and, you know, you and I have a fondness for an old Fuller Professor, Dr. Ray Anderson, who passed away. And he would, he would, in some of his writings. Yes.

Any book of his right now?

Yeah, there's this book. I got some of his books back here on the Shelf. but in the garden, the, the Hebrew scriptures describe the man as like an earth creature. He's not, he doesn't have form right yet. Not a. And it's when he comes into relationship, right, to the other, to this person that God has taken out of the ribs. When he comes in the ribs, there. There is now man and woman. There's a differentiation of self. And there's this idea we talk about, well, the two will become one. That somehow that means, well, we're just one now in I think a lot of our language, especially in weddings and cultures, because we're one now, that means you're responsible for me. And I don't think that what Scripture is saying there, that that in the beginning there is man and woman, there is differentiation of self. We are put into a relationship, but we don't lose who we are or a sense of uniqueness as being man or woman. We are responsible for ourselves to emotionally self-regulate and to show up as this us or this oneness and to give freely into that relationship. And we could go a lot of different directions with that, but I think a lot about that as the starting point. and I unpack that a lot sometimes in therapy with couples because I have couples coming in who are raised in the church. And the message they always heard growing up is that this person will fix me and do everything for me and be responsible to me. And let's be honest here, that for most of history, and it plays out a lot today, it's the responsibility has fallen on the woman to take responsibility for the other to to fix things.

Well, I mean, the woman is called the Ezher Conegdo there, which is like, which is the suitable helper, which is also like this person, like my, my warrior in time of need, is, is like that word there for the suitable helper. So of course it's her because she's the one that we need.

Right? Yeah.

See how this gets messy? But I love that passage. I love Galatians 4. and five. What else do you kind of think about when you think about self-differentiation and emotional self-regulation and working with that in the therapy room?

Yeah, I was thinking about, you know, presenting yourself as a living sacrifice, you know? Like it is a work that we have to sacrifice ourselves. Like, and once we do that, then Right? I love that. It's your spiritual, present yourself as a living sacrifice, which is your spiritual work of worship. That is worship to sacrifice ourselves. And it says, then you will know how to test and approve what is suitable. I forget the elements.

Yeah, it's Romans 12:1-2.

Right?

So the new international version is, therefore I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God. This is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Yes. Then what's the. How's it finished?

The.

Oh, man. Keep talking. I'm pulling up the verse here.

Well, yeah. I mean, where it says, like, I don't conforming to the patterns of this world. The patterns of this world. I wonder what that pattern is, man. If only I had a paint cycle to look at, then I would know what that pattern is. And I love that it says being renewed in the mind, right?

Yeah. It's so not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. This will be able to test and improve what God's will is, his good, pleasing, and perfect will.

That it's in that place that we make that turn then that we're able to move towards. what God's will is. And I think that it doesn't say, you know, present, you know, make sure your wife or your husband is sacrificing themselves because you know everything that is good, right? No, we have to, like from a biblical perspective, it is so important that.

We.

Get ourselves in the right place. And I love that it starts with this. God's in view of what? God's mercy. God's mercy. It's not in view of God's judgment and hate on you, but it's his mercy. And when I know God's mercy, that's when I can, like, really give myself holy. So anyways, we could probably preach on this for a while. You and I both have that ability.

That's a good one. Another one you brought up, which I I've been thinking about a lot was, I'll read the passage Matthew 7:3 and 5. Or why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's or sister's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your eye?

Right.

How can you say to your brother or sister, let me take the speck out of your eye when all the time there's a plank in your own eye?

Right.

And I, you threw that out there as a, I, as a, an example of emotional self-regulation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that passage goes on to say, take the plank out of your own eye first, then you'll be able to go and help your brother with what's going on inside of them or your sister. That, to me, that is. That's the beauty of self. It doesn't like the co-regulation would say, I am going to get the spec out of your eye. I'm going to get this for you. So it's out of your eye, you know, I got you. Oh, there it is. I got it, Rhett.

No.

Take care of yourself. Come on. Just like even when you're on the air, in the airplane, it doesn't say to put the mask on your child first. It says to do yourself first.

That's so good. And that's just one I, I, you know, that really jumped out to me because there are like little, I don't know. You know, sometimes we're like, I've kind of a lot of times looked for, like, images or characters in the Bible that maybe are modeling that. But I was like, just that teaching of Jesus there in the Parables, like, on the Sermon the Mount is so powerful. Another one I was thinking of is in John 21. There's that scene where they're. They're on the beach. Jesus has appeared, and he reinstates Peter. Like, like follow me. I mean, Peter's betrayed him and he has just, I mean, restored him. And Peter's first concern is, what about him? What's going to happen to John? And Jesus is like, who cares what's happened to John? You follow me. And that may seem like an odd thing, but even we're talking about like friendships, there's this idea like, I'm worried about him. What's he doing? What are they up to? Are they going to be a part of this? And and Jesus commands, no, you follow me, right? You, you, you stand in your own truth. I just reinstated you who you are in relationship to me and you follow me. And I'm concerned about this other thing over here. And if I'm going to be okay or not okay based on what is happening to John.

Yeah, I think that's, it's so important that we get ourselves dialed in. Once we're dialed in, then we can help out our brother, right?

Mm-.

It's not to say, like, it's not important to be, you know, that person that's, you know, bearing the other person's burden. Like, that's still important to care for one another. I think, you know, even in Genesis, you know, it's the first thing they say, it's not good for man to be alone. So, like, or for humans to be alone. Like, it's so important that we do recall, like, the connection is important. But it's being connected from internally that vertical connection place first, because then I can really step into this in a healthy place.

CB: yeah.

And you referenced Galatians, right? Bear one of those burdens, Galatians 6:2. And even the whole book of Boundaries is built kind of on that idea of they even referenced this passage. carry each other's burdens, right? But they referenced two verses later, Paul says, and each one should test their own actions, right? And this idea, depending on the translation is that, you know, each person should carry their own load, right? So we're to both come alongside, but also look at our own actions. There's a symbiotic relationship that can be, you know, we're kind of teasing it out, but the idea starts with us carrying our own load, being responsible for our own actions. And when we're able to do that, it frees us up then to be able to step in also and help other people and care for other people. But if all I do is step in and carry a person's burden for themselves and don't allow them the freedom to, to grow into their own self, I'm doing them a disservice, too. And then I will be crushed under the weight also of carrying people's burdens constantly.

Yeah.

I mean, it does say it in the Bible, you know, it's really important that we do note this because I think people get this wrong. They say, like, whoever is burdened, make sure their spouse takes care of them, right? Like, if you are weary and burdened, you need to take it to your spouse, right? For they will give you peace.

I think that's like some new translation or something. No, that's in the original text.

Yeah, hey, you know, come to me all you who are burdened and weary laden, and I will give you rest. My yoke is light. That is where, and I think this is like, if we can, if we could like really shift this dialogue in the church, around like our spouses are wonderful. Like they're great for that thing that we get out of them as we get to partake with one another and like, you know, co-journeying together. But they're not the ones that are ultimately responsible for ourselves.

Yeah, well, in a lot of the marriage education in the church, the programming and the stuff like, if you look through the material, it's. It's a lot of it. I want to say most, but a lot of it is co-regulation.

Yeah.

His knees.

Yeah.

What.

What's the other one that's people always want to talk to me about?

Well, there's love and respect. Yeah. That if you just give him respect.

Yeah.

Give him respect and give her love, the relationship. we'll be fine.

Right. Right.

That's it.

That.

That he's not responsible for his own sense of self. Right. In his own sense of, you know, truth that, you know, from God, that he's okay, you know, that. That. That he is enough. Right. She has to step in and demonstrate these things to him, and then a marriage will be good.

Yeah.

And for anybody that knows good music, like Aretha needed respect too. So R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

There you go.

Suck it to me.

What do you think about this passage? And I'm going to credit Henry Nowen with it because he talks about a lot of his writings.

But.

Mark 1:9-11, Jesus again baptized in the Jordan. Dove's descending, hears a voice from heaven say, you are my son. whom I love with you, I'm well pleased. And in Mark, for example, he's cast immediately into the desert, right? And Satan tempts him to turn stone into bread and to jump off the temple and make himself ruler over the kingdom. And I think about this sometimes as co-regulation in the sense of when I'm not in my truth, when I'm not managing my own emotions, I'm I'm tempted to be drawn to these other things that will fix me, right?

Yeah.

That I can, that are luring to me, that I can, that feel good to me, that, you know, make myself ruler, you know, have people take care of me, have the angels swoop down and rescue me. And to me, it's a beautiful example of Jesus standing in the truth of who he is and being able to resist to temptation. And, and that, to me, that's like, that's a self-regulatory piece. I know people are like, well, he's God. Of course he knows. Like, but if we believe that Jesus came down the four man, right. And was fully human. We struggled with the same stuff that we struggled with. That's a significant piece.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think, like, I think this idea around Coe has a connection of mutuality to it.

Right.

I help you. You help me in my, you know, broken place. So I think when it is from the godhead on high, that's. That it's not Mutual. It's not Mutual.

Right.

It is totally God feeding into us. You know, that is. That is the flow of the way things are going like it. So I don't even think that's a co-regulation that is a. that is, that is a parent child where it is going one way.

And.

So, yeah, I think, yeah, I think you're right.

So say, so say that again. Like what you're saying is there's the.

Idea behind co-regulation is there's mutuality.

Yep.

There, there is this. commonality on how it comes about. And we're talking regulation. So it's mutuality in. And making each other whole.

Right.

That's. That's that. That's that place that we're coming from. So you're making me whole. I am complete with you.

Right.

Versus self-regulation is saying, I am made whole or.

And.

And I can come into the relationship. and the only place that can actually where does work out proper is in that parent relationship, which I would include.

You know, God in that. Yes.

Father in that as well.

Yeah.

And, you know, we won't get into this today. We, we know that people that wherever they are in their faith or lack of faith, there's issues around God and church and all kinds of stuff. Right. And, and as we work through that, you know, I've heard and I. You can correct me, but I've heard Terry say, you know, that we receive truth, right? From God, spiritual resources, truth from others, true people speak truth into us and truth from ourself.

Yeah.

And that maybe the most important truth is the self. Because if God's communicating truth to us all day long, but we don't actually believe it and step into that, it's not going to go anywhere.

Mm-.

Yeah.

And I would say like it's more it's not that the self is the most important, it's the most powerful.

Okay. Not the most important, the most powerful in terms of embodying that and stepping into it.

Yeah, because I at the end of the day, I, I take, I it's up to me what I take hold of, right?

Yeah.

And if I don't take hold of that, It doesn't matter how important it is coming down. If I'm not receiving it, it don't matter.

Yeah. You know, even again, not time for this today. Interesting discussion, but even the theology around the Trinity and the Godhead that.

They.

Don'T, you know, and I know councils have argued this over the years, right? Oh, yeah. They don't lose. the sense of self and identity, but they're also co-mutual right? There's a mutuality but also a distinction. And, and that, that, and to me, and that's in marriage, right? That we are, there's a mutuality in the relationship that we give and take and receive for one another because we care for one another. But there's a distinction in that I am me, you are you, and we are responsible to be adults to manage our emotions and to show up in the relationship in a healthy way.

Right.

And the important part about the Trinity there is it is mutual. It's not hierarchical.

Yep.

It is. There's a. And what ha, like, if it's hierarchical where one is taking care of the other, that's when we're in trouble. But when we're in the zone together on that same plane, then we're doing okay.

Yeah.

Hey, I'm gonna read you a poem. You tell me what you think of this. It's, I really love him. I never say his name right, but Khalil Gibran, the Lebanese poet. He's got, yeah. I remember reading this in seminary. It's from his book, the Prophet. So he's talking about marriage here. I'm gonna read a part of it. He says, A, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God, but let there be spaces in your togetherness, and let the winds of the heavens dance between you. Love one another, but make not a bond of love. Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls. Fill each other's cup, but drink not from one cup. Give one another of your bread, but eat not from the same loaf. Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone. Even as the strings of the lute are alone, they quiver with the same music. Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping, for only the hand of life can contain your hearts. And stand together yet not too near together, for the pillars of the temple stand apart, and the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.

Wow.

What do you think?

I think you're in the zone there. It's that beautiful mutuality that is not the intertwined, like together this piece. I think that's so great. I love that.

Yeah.

Or one more for you by Rainer Maria Rilke. Real K. Real K. Rilke. I don't know.

These are gonna be on the, you're gonna put these in the substack.

Sure. But he says this, this comes from his famous, which I highly recommend, his book Letters to a Young Poet, which are letters that we have of Rilke responding to this young man who is writing to him. And he says this, the point of marriage is not to create a quick commonality by tearing down all boundaries. On the contrary, a good marriage is one in which each partner appoints the other to be the garden of his solitude, and thus they show each other the greatest possible trust. A merging of two people is an impossibility, and where it seems to exist, it is a hemming in, a mutual consent that robs one party or both parties of their fullest freedom and development. But once the realization is accepted that even between the closest people infinite distances exist, a marvelous living side by side can grow up for them if they succeed in loving the expanse between them, which gives them the possibility of always seeing each other as a whole and before an immense sky.

Wow.

Like I shared those two, because to me they express a differentiation of self, that there's a closeness, but we're not merging into two, that we are responsible Right? And even the language, I might, you know, appoint one, the guardian of their solitude, but I take that as like we, there is in having space between one another and managing our emotions, we protect something that allows the us-ness to grow, right? The we to grow.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, even, you know, you're talking Genesis earlier around two becoming one. like that Oneness that's there. It's about being kin, about being family.

Right.

It's not like this, like one entity that a lot of times we. We use. We usually take it to mean, but it's about being, like, kin, about being together in that place.

Yeah. And so, you know, you and I, I just, you know, we've. We've pastored, we've been therapists for many, many years. There are people out there who have more experience in therapy room than us, some less than us. But I think what you and I are discovering, and we're obviously part of the restoration therapy community, that as we lean into the model, and honor that aspect of self-regulation, we have seen, I think, the biggest transformation in the couples and the people we work with. And we've played around with all kinds of models and there's lots of good things that come from all models. Like, I pull a lot of things from other thinkers and other models and we'll integrate them in different ways as tools into the practice. But as a basis, that RT piece and that emotional self-regulation piece is just so critical. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that's the, the beauty of it. It's, it's pulled in the best.

And.

And I, I say that and I mean it. Like, I think when, when you see a couple that has done the work of, when they're using their four steps regularly and they're self-regulated with one another, it is It is remarkable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The change, the shift, it is absolutely nothing like greater than when, like if you run into them years later and you're like, oh, look at you guys.

Yeah.

Do you remember the first time you did your four steps with Jennifer?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Was there a shift for you though?

Yeah.

Yeah.

When.

The one we always talk about is when she used it for the first time. -huh I feel like I was trying it out a lot. Kind of like what you talk about when you were learning about it.

But.

I still remember, like, the power when I was sitting with Jennifer. and I was really, I messed up because I'm a total doofus. I am Dennis the Menace a lot of times.

And.

I remember sitting there and being like, I feel like a failure. And what I normally do is I perform my way out of it or I get really angry or I just shut down. And I know the truth is I'm still called and I'm loved. I know you love me. and instead of, you know, being performer, I'm just gonna try and be myself right now and be caring. And when I did that, first off, Jennifer looked at me and she smiled in this, like, really loving way of, like, yeah, you are loved and you are still called. And I was able to apologize in a. In a way that felt. so congruent. Like, I was like, yeah, I was being an idiot. I am so sorry, you know? And it felt so authentic, and I wasn't blaming, like, her, like I normally would. Like, I. Well, yeah, what I did wasn't bad. Like, I, you know, or I wasn't blaming the cycle, but I was just able to be wholehearted in my. In my ability to say, I'm sorry, babe.

So.

Yeah, I, you know, I can, I can say from personal experience that, like, restoration therapy, RT has saved my life, my marriage, like, marriage life, family life has been more beautiful now than it's ever been. And I I think it, it, it all started. The key of it is the ability to me to Show up as an adult in the relationship, right? And when I do that, my wife shows up in a beautiful way to freely give because she's not responsible for me. And there's a freedom there, you know? And we're launching a girl, a daughter off to college here in a few months as well. Right? And the scaffolding comes off and my parenting relationship here will move to more partnering.

Yeah.

Right?

And so it's just, it's really cool. Let's, let's you and I close with this because you and I, I'm like, I'm aware of the fact we could post a six hour podcast and people be like, oh, my, what are Lance and Rhett doing? Go deep, right? But if people out there listening, like, I have one exercise I'd like them to do. You might have something, too. I would like people listening for the next couple of weeks have their antanas. tuned up of where you're listening to culture, music, just noticing how they show up in their relationships, their marriages, everything, and see if they can catch.

All.

The messages of either co-regulation or self-regulation. Just simply notice. You don't got to do anything about it. Just kind of take note. Where are all the messages of either co-regulation coming in? or self-regulation or even personally just noticing how many times you are making bids for co-regulation or you notice yourself stepping into self-regulation that would be my, my encouragement to people listening to practice the next couple of weeks. You have any thoughts? Something?

Yeah, I, I lean into that. I would. I would also encourage you to pay attention to deregulation as well, where there's no regulation, you just cut out and you don't engage at all. I think that's a very common thing where I don't need nobody, nothing. And that's not self-regulation, that's deregulation. And Some of the telltale signs of co-regulation is when you hear the if you would just, if they would just, whenever that moment's being pulled up, then that is a very good sign that there is something that you are struggling with that needs to be filled and that space between, like you're trying to grab that loaf you know that piece like what's that? Khalil GabrIle?

Yeah, Lebanese poet Khalil GabrIle.

Yeah, GabrIle. Sorry.

GabrIle.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm trying to reach for that. So yeah, I think that'd be great if we spent time and then we just religiously do our four steps. Terry makes a big deal about this.

About what?

About doing restoration therapy. The best restoration therapist is the one that does their own four steps.

Yeah, yeah.

If you're not doing this work, you're not living it enough. So do your own work.

Yeah, just the love. Give one another of your bread, but eat not from the same loaf.

Yeah.

Man, you know, I just maybe think how much more we. I need to read poetry or we need great poets out there because they can just put stuff into words that, like, you and I have been trying to explain for, like, the last hour.

Yeah.

We're like, just read Khalil. You're good.

Yeah.

We need to get Steven on here. My. What? He's one of my. write him in.

He was Steven Perez.

He was almost a poet laureate.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, he almost went down that road. He's awesome doing poems and sessions with his clients and stuff. So it's cool.

Well, you see Steven every day, so make that happen. Let's do that.

All right.

All right, Lance, now you can go. Parent your daughter.

Yes.

And partner with your wife.

All right. Hey, have a great Saturday, my friend.

Yeah.

Take care, man.

All right.

God bless you.

You too.