https://www.listennotes.com/e/ba1b717e957e45bc895871207000f49a

All right, how's everyone doing this morning?

Good.

Good to be here. It's good to see you, man.

Good to see you.

I feel like it's been forever.

It has.

And we have a special guest, Monica, with us. Monica, I always, you're gonna have to tell me here. I thought I said your last name wrong. Monica de Christina, right?

It's D. Christina. So just like emphasis on the D. Okay. It's a hard one.

We are so glad to have you on. We've known you, you've known us for a little while, but we're kind of ships passing in the night as we've done some restoration therapy training. And you are based out of Atlanta, out of Buckhead. And I was saying earlier, I'm super impressed with your podcast still be coming. So you're gonna have to put up with Lance and I's amateur hour.

Amateur hour.

Amateur hour.

It's great. It's great.

Yeah.

But we're just super glad to have you on today. And we have a lot of things we want to talk about. And we may have to do an episode two because there's just a lot of stuff to unpack.

Sure.

We've got a new book coming out we want to discuss. But I think starting off, we'd love to hear, how did you even come to Restoration Therapy? Like, what was that journey like for you?

Yeah, I mean, what I remember about coming to Restoration Therapy is I learned about it through one of our mutual friends, Katie, right? And she knew this amazing couple, the hard Hargraves. I just kept talking about them and talking about them. And I was just sort of skeptical because I didn't know anything about them. I was like, okay. So I went, I know Katie well enough that I trusted her and went all the way to California to do a training with the Hargraves. And I was hooked. And I think my biggest takeaway from learning about restoration therapy was immense relief as a practitioner that it felt like at times at that point in my career, like I Starting every session from scratch, reinventing the wheel every time. And when I found RT, I felt like, okay, I can organize this. There's, we can, we, we can totally make sense of this. Went off to start over every session. It was such a relief. So that's kind of the short version. Where I was curious, where did you do training at?

Were you at Fuller or Pepperdine or?

I think we're, I think this is when Terry was still at Fuller. Okay.

Yeah.

Mm-. assistant: yeah. So we did training there.

What year would that have been?

I have no idea. I really, I actually don't. I have, I'm terrible with numbers and years. It's been a while, you know, but I really don't know.

I think that's one of the big things that we have had in the podcast is, yeah. All of our, all of our like year, year, like trying to put it together, like what year, what's that?

Yeah.

It all blends together.

Yeah.

But it was, it was a long time ago. I've been, I'll say this. I've been on my own in private practice for seven years, and I did the training maybe three years before that.

Oh, wow.

So, you know, so I may, you know, again, we could, you know, talk to somebody else and be like, that's totally wrong. I mean, that's what I think.

No, but you're like 10 or 11 years deep into it.

I think so.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then did we first meet at the at Windshape at the anxiety training stuff?

I feel like, or did I meet.

You at, at Peachtree Perez at the counseling clinic?

I feel so. I missed you because I was in and out of the clinic when you were there in Atlanta. But I think that, yeah, the first time we actually met in person, although I'd heard about you many times through Katie, through other people, was that, was that one shape at that training?

Okay.

Yeah. Cool. Yeah.

So 10 or 11 years into restoration therapy, what was it? I mean, besides the Hargraves, it sounds like I'm just, I'm always curious about If there's one moment that like just clicks for you and it sounds like there was maybe that kind of makes sense that you're like, this is the model I'm gonna kind of see work through.

Yeah, you know, I think through my own story and then working with clients, I found myself oscillating back and forth between sort of untrue narratives and the truth. I found myself in that language before I found RT. Just like, this is not true, but this is what you've been believing, but this is what's true. But I didn't have a container I didn't have the even the mindfulness piece to make it stick. You know, I had the intuition that I was using that with CBT, with some trauma training, other things, but it was really like a container for something that just made sense in my soul, for lack of better words. It made sense as a as an individual for my own story, but also made sense with what I was seeing in practice. And, and I found it also within with couples, you know, with individuals, it was Life changing with couples, it was such so grounding because the chaos that can come from escalated couples, we really started to be able to calm them down when they understood this is the cycle. This is what's happening to us. You know, that was a huge relief.

When you're also trained in EFT, right?

Yeah.

We focus on couples therapy work for a long time. So yeah, I'm always wondering about the differentiating peace between RC sometimes and EFT.

Yeah.

I wonder what that was for you. Was it the way things were sequenced or.

It's a great question.

I went all the way through the EFT training, all the way up until the videos that I had to send. And I, you know, through all the small group, the train, the enactments, everything. And I loved, I loved the theory. I loved the trainers. I became a better therapist. But what I found, what it is that it was less actionable. I found that it was too overwhelming when you really got into the middle of the water with a couple, that it just, I wasn't feeling like I was effective and really, and really helping them move through their pain out, you know, to somewhere better together as a couple. It would just get kind of, I could take them to the deep waters, but it felt irresponsible because I didn't, I didn't feel my, I would say my limitations as an EFT therapist, I didn't feel like I could bring them through in a way that was really actionable for them. That's where RT was totally different. Like, this is what they can do when they're at home. This is what they can do between sessions.

Yeah, I agree. I found that similar. I got to, I love, I love the theory. And I agree with everything you're saying. Like, yeah, it really makes you grow as a therapist.

Yes.

The empathetic conjecture, the ability to, to hold space, to be able to deal with the madness, to hold a room, you know, that's a power. EFT has that power position as the therapist where you're like, oh, and I see right now that you are really struggling with this, you know, thing that was dealt to you when you were so young. And that's what's happening, the dragons being stirred up. you know, and this dragon is getting you.

And.

And exactly.

I wonder if you could look at your spouse right now and just look at them and tell them about this dragon that gets stirred up.

Yes. Yes. You're really channeling Sue Johnson.

Yeah. Wow.

You're indeed, dude.

Yeah. Yeah.

No, totally.

I love it.

But it makes for those magical moments, but it does. the tough part is the.

I think what I found is that, you know, is what we all know as RT therapists is that magical moments are not change, you know, and so. And magical moments are awesome.

Right.

And, and, and, and they can be, they can be a life changing moment, but they don't turn into a healthier couple, someone who really believes the truth about themselves.

Right.

I mean, and maybe there are EFT therapists. I can pull that off. I'm sure there are. I just was not one of them. you know, and that's where RT felt really much more accessible.

What do you think is like the growing edge for you right now as like an RT therapist? You know, we talk about when we go hang out as a group, there's always things like, at least for me personally, I feel inadequate about watching people work in the room sometimes. And I'm like, I need to go home and work on this more. Is there something that you find yourself working on right now in your own your own practice of RT for sure.

There's two things. One is getting up out of my chair, you know, and when I, when I got home from the RT conference, I was like, here we go. And I really, I did, I had a couple swaying. I had two pieces of paper, the truth and the pain cycle, and, you know, and it's just, I prefer sitting down, you know, I'm just more comfortable. So that is a huge Growing Edge that I'm every time I go to a training or see Terri do anything or any RT therapist, I'm like, okay, gotta get up. And so that's, that's the biggest one. The second is Terri's opening remarks about practicing, right? The four steps. What I find, I don't know about you guys, you know, and your work, and I'd love to hear is that clients want another new truth. Oftentimes they don't want to hear practicing this will help you be free, right? They, they kind of want a new insight. They kind of want something a little bit more exciting. And so it's like, it's in some ways like parenting that, you know, this is the good, hard thing that we have to do next. And it may not sound that great. And I think sort of owning the truth of how practicing is healing for these clients, I think is something that I have to continue to grow in, you know, like this is, let's go back and let's keep practicing this.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think it is hard, like, to be a one-trick pony.

Yeah.

And, and to be that person that come when, when you got that client that comes in the room and they're like, you got anything else?

Yeah.

Like, really? Like, I had one, I had one husband say to me, so I'm supposed to say this stuff to myself. It's like, Yeah, it's a little more complicated than that, but yeah, let's walk through it, you know?

Loud and proud, baby. Sing it out loud.

Yeah.

I think whether it's a new truth, I always kind of think of it, people always want another tool. They think there's a key object, this other tool is gonna fix it. And I think over time I've come back to maybe there's one or two tools, like RT being the primary one and there's another one.

Sure.

Maybe it's a breathing exercise or something. The other tool I use, but more and more, I'm like, I'm trying to get comfortable with just saying, yeah, this is, this is it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I often say to clients, like, you know, I, you know, something shiny may get a lot of Instagram followers, sell a lot of books, but, you know, but the reality is, like, this is, this is how you heal. You practice, you've been practicing something that hurt for years. This is how you heal. You have to practice and, you know, and with, of course, like the grounding exercises, the breathing exercises, all those things, depending on the client.

Yeah.

I'm trying to be careful not to have so much I want to say, but I don't want to talk over Lance either, because I know he's got a lot to say too. He just tends to think a little deeper than me, so he's got the bigger picture.

Whatever.

I would love to hear, and this is a good segue, but you got a book coming out soon.

Mm-.

Or it's out, but you can also- It's pre-order.

Right now it's pre-order. Yeah, it's out May 13th, but you can pre-order it now.

Your pain has a name and.

I.

Guess I would like to kind of use that as a launching point to kind of hear more about your story because obviously a book is personal. It's kind of the entry point into like how we work with clients and So obviously I think we'll hear you talk about it, but RT has been a significant piece in your own ongoing journey of healing. So I'd love to hear more just about that journey if you're willing to share that.

Sure.

Yeah. Yeah.

So the book is called youd Pain Has a Name. And really what it's about is I introduced the concept through my own years, like actual years. assistant< end_header_id >, of living without a name for my pain, which when you don't know what's what you're experiencing, whether it's trauma, anxiety, relational issues, you start to fill that in with narratives about something being wrong with you, right? That I don't feel good. I don't know why nobody knows why. So something must be deeply wrong with me. And that's, that's how I really operated and lived under for years and really tried to get help in different places, especially the church. And, and I couldn't find it. And so the book really, you know, launches from that place, but invites people into this concept of if you don't know the name for your pain, it will name you. And, and I really resonate with RT in the way that, you know, they, you know, Terry and Sharon call it feelings at the, in the pain cycle. But it's really, I, I, I experience it and teach it to clients like, these are beliefs about myself. This is what I feel about my identity or my safety. Um, and so that's where it really, it to merges for me is when I'm helping people find a name for their pain, I'm helping them understand what have you walked around believing for years? Can we name that together? What actually happened? And then what did you conclude? And with that, what do you do when you feel that way? And that's how it all plays into RT.

Yeah, I found your book so compelling. Like, you know, I haven't made it all the way through confession to everybody. So I'm waiting for the, Amazing conclusion.

Yeah.

No, and it's still on my queue of books I'm working my way through, so.

Yeah.

But yeah, I love that part, like where you're like trying to get to the place of like, where you finally sit down with Dr. Barnes.

Yeah, Dr. Barnes.

Yeah.

And you've been through this, like, you know, you've been to pastors and you get the one guy that's got like the door open and, you know, you're sitting. that line. Oh, my gosh. I. I was telling you how earlier, I was, like, ringing my fingers. I'm, like, just imagining you sitting in that parking lot, watching the lights turn off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just another difficult experience. And I think about so many of our clients that walk in the room.

Yeah, absolutely. They walk in the room often having gone to everybody they know to figure out what's wrong. You know, I think, I mean, the last research I read, maybe you guys know more than I do here, is that people tend to go to their place of worship first, you know? And that's a good thing. There's nothing wrong with that. The only problem with that is that sometimes people in places of worship or in their churches are practicing outside of their competency. You know, that someone comes in in pain. Like, so for me, I came in with, you know, ego dystonic intrusive thoughts. I had undiagnosed OCD from early traumas, right? They had no idea, no idea what to do with me, no idea what was wrong with me. And instead of saying, Hey, that sounds so hard. Let's help you find someone who does. I just went on my way alone again, trying to find help. And I think that that's what a lot of our clients have experienced, at least clients I've worked with have experiences. walking into a place of worship desperate, you know, whether it's depression, anxiety, a marital issue, an addiction, and finding sometimes really well-meaning people. But if the well-meaning people don't recognize their own limits, the person continues on without the right help. Does that make sense?

Yeah, totally.

What? Yeah.

Oh, good.

No, no. I mean, I don't know any research numbers, but I mean, I know practically that the majority of people come to my office There's probably a referral from a church or somebody who goes to church.

Which is great.

And often it's, they have nowhere else to go. They don't find the help that they need. So they end up in a stranger's office, which is my office.

Sure.

Trying to help. And I'm with you. I think there are a lot of well-meaning people I think so. But they're practicing out of, like you said, a lack of. A lack of competence, out of their scope of competence. Thankfully, I feel like some of the communities I'm around, they're pretty quick to refer out. They recognize quickly. Yeah. It's changing big time.

This was 20 years ago. My story.

Oh, for sure.

You know, it's changed.

Well, it goes back to that.

You come with anxiety. And the first message you might hear is, well, Paul says, don't be anxious, so don't be anxious.

Right.

Well, that's not really helpful.

No, it's not. Not if you have an anxiety disorder. No, that's really not gonna help.

Yeah.

What were you gonna say, Lance?

Yeah, I was kind of curious. And yeah, I think that we have changed a lot. And I think some of our people that would be listening to this might be in that role, you know, I think.

Sure.

Yeah.

The, you have this section on dismissing versus listening. versus listening.

And.

I think what you experienced with the church was a lot of dismissing or just not holding what you had had.

Right.

And what are you like, if you could really speak to maybe some pastors that might be listening to this or people that may have misheld people's pain.

Yeah.

What would be some of the things that you'd want to coach people when it comes to hearing pain? when it comes to it. Yeah.

Because I think that's, yeah, I love that question so much because I think so often people are well-meaning they don't know what to do. And I think one of the best ways that we can love people, especially in a position of leadership or even just in a friendship, is to say to them, I don't know what this is. I don't know. Because so often we have been fed this idea or trained in this idea that in order to be loving and helpful, we have to have an answer for someone. And the reality is humans and pains are so complex. We know that from our work. It's so complex. So having the humility to say, I don't know, is a way to really love someone and then following that up with, but I'm going to stick with you until we find out what it is.

Right. And.

And then, you know, shoring up your list of people that you trust in your community, you know, that there are churches whose lists I'm on, they vet you. You know, they really vet you. They want to make sure that you know what you're doing. And I really believe in that. I respect that, you know, shoring that list up. Who are the people, the psychiatrists, the OBGYNs, the therapists, the marriage therapists, the addiction specialists that I can call when someone who's hurting stumbles into my office and says, I don't know what's wrong, but I can't do this anymore. And being able to have the humility and then the resource say, I don't know, you know, but I'm with you. I'm not gonna leave you, and we're gonna figure it out.

That's such a good word for therapists, too, right?

Yeah.

I was thinking early on in my practice, feeling the pressure that I need to be able to work with everybody.

Totally.

And if I can't help you, then I'm at least in my own, my own story, like, feeling like I'm telling as a therapist and getting to the place, you know, where you realize quickly, like, oh, I don't. I don't know what's going on here either as a therapist.

And.

Right.

Who is the therapist in the community that I can refer you to? Or even going backwards. Sometimes I'm like, there's a deep spiritual issue here, and I, I know a pastor or a priest, I think you should do about this.

Yeah.

That might do a better job of spiritual Direction than, than I might be able to do with you.

I, I couldn't agree more. I write about that. Maybe Lance read that part in the book about referring out. It's a huge part of my practice over the last two weeks. I just referring someone to a pastor and to a spiritual director. I've referred people to get, you know, testing for autism. I've referred people to eating disorder specialists. I've referred people to get hormone hormone tests. I've had people come down with, come back with autoimmune disorder diagnoses. You know, it's just we can't know everything. And we, and I think one thing that we probably all share with pastors, if they're listening or people in leadership, is we care. and we want to help. And so I think there's really a lot of freedom in saying helping doesn't mean having the answers. Helping means not looking away. Helping means I'm going to show up and I'm going to be a support for you on this journey.

I love that line. Means not looking away.

Yeah.

Such a good.

Yeah.

I feel like we should just have like a list. Maybe we could add this to the RT dialogue.

Like substack page.

Yeah.

Just to say, not like, like, make your own list type thing, but here.

Yeah.

People to think about.

And yeah.

Yeah.

Are you connected? Do you have a dietitian? Do you have.

Right.

You know, do you have, who's, who's the pastor? Who's the priest? You know, who's the hospice? You know, that person has so many clients where they're, you know, their parents are getting really old and.

Yeah.

And they're. trying to figure out, you know, coordinated care.

Yeah.

So I, I think that'd be a really good resource we should add to the list. What do you think, Rhett?

Yeah.

No, I mean, I'm in my brain right now. I'm thinking of all the.

Yeah.

You know, and it's hard, you know, it's hard. I think when you're in private practice, which I think all of us are, you know, like, sometimes you find yourself alone and scrambling for time.

Totally.

To try to help resource people is another, another thing to add on, and so sometimes sometimes, unless you have that already set up those, those systems, it can be really difficult. And in private practice, too, sometimes we're not as connected as people maybe in a community mental health network. I'm envious of you, Lance. You have a pretty big group of people that you practice with, you know, which I think is, is really great. And I don't, I mean, the field is changing a lot. I think there's more specialized areas that we can refer out to.

Yeah.

For sure.

Sometimes I worry, too. I I don't know if you two ever experienced this is when you start listing all the things that they might need to do, you start in your head thinking about maybe the cost of that, whether it's finances or time or energy.

Yes.

And so then I feel like, oh, maybe I can just help them with everything right here in my office. I don't want to have to have them running around.

Yeah.

But then I can't, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

I find that bind sometimes.

Yeah, it's a real bind. And I think it's a really important one that we name, right? Is that sometimes people need help that they can't afford. And so that's got to be a part of the conversation. And that's, yeah, that's really real.

Yeah, man, we got to figure out the economics, man. If we could just help more people in a more efficient way, man, that would be so.

Yeah.

Powerful.

I will say, you know, being in private practice, one thing that does help is I have a network of therapists where we just text, I need a referral for this. I need, I need a male addiction specialist this week. Anybody, no one. I need, you know, and that really helps because, you know, just kind of, and we just fire off this, this person's great. I know this person, you know, that really can help if you just have even two or three other, you know, therapists, you know, or two or three other pastors, you know, that you trust their judgment and you can just, you know, have that and, and really to support each other in that.

Yeah, I think we're all fortunate on this, in this podcast here. I think we all have a pretty good community, but it made me think more about what's gathered, gathered us here is being part of the restoration therapy community.

And.

I'm just, I'm curious, this is for both of you because it's been really important in my own journey after I found myself kind of isolated and alone to come back to this community and, and I don't know, just resonate deeply with people on the work that they do and the different places they're doing it. And I'm curious for both of you, what is it about RT.

The community.

Itself that has been really impactful for both of you that keeps you coming back to it?

That's good. You want to go first, Lance?

Oh, man. I mean, first off, you know, the gift of Terry and Sharon Hargrave, I think, when I was really young, going through all the, you know, process of becoming a therapist, just the, just their authenticity of, you know, being available.

In.

In difficult moments that, you know, and always guiding me back to the model. Like, this isn't a thing that we give to people. This is a thing that we live and we breathe. and, and now, as I've kind of grown in my own, like, practice and, and to where it is, you know, to be that for my teammates has been that gift that, you know, this is something that is true and real. And, and to have someone that can put their arm on your shoulder, you know, and, and hold you there just for a minute and say, Lance, what truth do you need to know right now? Nothing like that will mess me up versus there's one other thing that will mess me up more. And I hate it when they tell me this and my team is really good about this. When I'm really mad about a client, this rarely happens.

Yes.

But when I'm really mad about a client, and, and my, one of my teammates will look at me and they'll be like, I wonder what pain they're in. It's. And I'm like, dang it.

Yeah.

I don't want to have compassion. I just want to be mad.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's that constant return for me to say, you know what? These are humans in front of us, and we get to care for them, we get to love on them, so. Um, and, and to have that accountability structure built in.

Um, so. Good. Yeah.

Yeah.

I would say, I mean, one of the things that keeps me coming back, there's probably, you know, one thing that's sort of personal, one thing that's more clinical. I think the, the, the personal piece is the warmth. You know, it, therapists can be weird. I mean, it can be a, it can be a, just a strange world, you know, sometimes. And I've been, you know, I went to an online trauma. research conference or something, and it was just one of the worst things I've ever seen. I just, I learned nothing. I spent a lot of money and hours and I just learned nothing. And they're just, there's sort of this, this removal of warmth and humanity that I never experienced with RT, you know? And so that's one thing I just feel like you're welcome here. We're all on the same team. There aren't any, there are experts. But they act like humans, you know, and it's just so warm. And I love that. And I think that's how therapy should be. It should feel safe and warm. Of course it should tell the truth, but be inviting and welcoming. And I think the clinical piece is just the focus on emotional regulation. You know, like the older I get in my personal life and in my professional life, I think so much just comes down to emotional regulation. you know, I mean, any difficulty I have with someone that's been hurting me in my life, it's only when they're dysregulated, you know, any difficulty I'm producing in my own life, it's only when I'm dysregulated. And so it's just the, the, the actionable model to help you get back to a place of truth and emotional regulation that I think is just, is really, is not only how you change, but it's how you live a good life, you know, regardless of what happens, if you can get back to a place of peace, and truth and calm, you can make it through a lot of hard stuff.

That reminds me of, I can't remember the guy, it's a study like family, you guys may know, families in faith. I think it's Van Burghstein or something. They tracked families for 35 years and they're looking for what was the key ingredient of the transmission of faith from one generation to the next.

Wow.

And the key factor they came back to was warmth.

Wow. Really?

Yeah.

It's fascinating.

It didn't matter if you had the right doctrine or you had all the rules or the ecclesiology, structure, leadership.

It didn't matter.

Sure. What mattered was that the kid experienced warmth within the home. And so I don't know, I just think that I haven't thought about that word in terms of that word in terms of the RT community, but I think you're right.

It's warm.

Yeah.

And it's displayed from top down. Yes. Very much so, which I think I tried to express at the conference when I was sharing something, which is you never feel like you're a beginner because they always ask you to participate whatever level therapist you are or whatever knowledge you have. And you never had the feeling that Terry and Sharon thought you were in incapable of doing something.

That's right.

So you're, you're, and you're essentially invited to participate. So it's a very participatory Community with maybe warmth as its glue, kind of. And I, I think I've said in my own life, the word restoration, like the model itself, restoration therapy.

Yeah.

Like Terry and Sharon and other people in the community have walked me through my own, my own restoration and my own family and marriage restoration, and so. mm-. Like it is lived out.

Yeah.

In a very tangible way. And maybe that's because I feel like I'm kind of inside because I do a lot of things with the community, but I don't think, I think that's, I think that's true whether you're involved or not. Like if you practice RT and you come be a part of the community, you're going to experience that warmth.

Yeah.

And yeah, as Lance said, like these are things that he practiced, they lived out.

Yeah.

These are the lived out philosophy.

Yeah.

Love that.

You're. You're a living example of restoration, Rhett.

Yeah, I know. Well, I I I receive. I receive that. That's. Yeah, it's. I'm thankful for people in the community who are willing to. like you said, kind of come up, put your arm aside you and say, okay, we're gonna walk through all this together.

Yeah. You know?

And so I think I, with my clients, I try to hold that space for them, you know, that I believe in restoration. And even when you don't right now, like, I'm gonna hold that hope out for you that we can't restore this, and we're gonna use RT to do it.

That's good. So good. So good.

And the work of God in our lives.

Yeah, right, right.

Yes.

Monica, I'd be curious, you made a comment on the substack about the faith piece at the conference being really unexpected in a way, not because it's not something a part of our community, but like it hit you. I'm curious about what that was for you or the season of life you find yourself in where that's really significant.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably like a whole podcast episode, but I'll try to shorten it, you know? Yeah. When I look back on my personal journey, which, you know, I talk about in my book, I prayed for a miracle. I prayed, God, please heal me. Please heal me. And I think a lot of people can resonate with that. Please heal me from my anxiety, from these scary thoughts, from feeling so awful. You know, I got to the point where I was suicidal. And God didn't heal me, quote unquote. You know, the miracle that I expected from my new faith when I became a Christian at 17, it never happened. But God never let go of my hand. And as I sat there in the Restoration Therapy Summit, I thought, here's the miracle. Here it is. Here it is. You know, God did heal me, you know, and walked me through by bringing me into a calling where I not only You know, ran towards and dismantled the own lies in my own life, but but the lies in other people's lives, you know, and it's it's just such a it's so powerful for me personally and professionally, to sit with the idea of God's power and the Jesus I know, and healing in this way and mental health. It's so compelling, and it's so needed. So just as I was sitting there in these different moments, I was just like, Wow, you know, this is the miracle I prayed for all those years ago. Here it is. And I'm helping to act out God's hands and feet. And so are all these people helping people, you know, I just think it's part of God's work that very often, because it can get weird, maybe sometimes we, you know, we kind of keep it separate sometimes, you know, but it's, it's really beautiful.

That'S so awesome. Yeah.

I was like, like, it's kind of like it's been there and God's like, okay, I just want you to notice.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

I've been walking the miracle and, like, yeah, doing the work and, you know, I've been in, like, you know, healed from, like, the extreme things I experienced for years and years now, but it's just so beautiful to see, like, the big Arc of God's story and see how. And see how God is using restoration therapy to heal so many people, you know, it's just. as someone who prayed for healing but didn't get it in the way that maybe the Christian books kind of promised at that time, it's really powerful to see God's healing work through a therapy model that's very actionable and accessible.

That's, that's really well put. I think there is this kind of idea when we look at the scriptures, we have this, like, idea that the healing is instantaneous.

Totally.

Yeah.

And, I mean, when we. I. I feel like, as I've read through the scriptures, like, with a RT lens, I do notice that sometimes it ain't.

No, that's right.

That baby takes a long time to get.

Yeah.

For Isaac to come to. Come to this Earth. You know, it's like 40 years of pain.

Yeah.

Like, yeah.

That'S why I love, like, Terry talks about renewing your mind and that, you know, I think that I really do believe. And I've said before, like, healing is a practice. You know, it's practicing the truth. And, and I think that that's such a refreshing model for people who are just want to feel better and are praying to feel better. And it's not just happening like that, you know, it's not happening after your prayer time. Oh, you got anxious again at lunch, or you're, you're struggling with depression again, you know?

Yeah.

And it's, it's been there the whole time. I mean, I'm, it's always amazes me, you know, because we've talked, we've worked a lot with anxiety that people stop at Philippians 4 6. But, right. In 4 7 Paul talks about these truths. And then in, in the following verses there, eight and nine, he says, meditate on him. And then he says, go out and practice them.

Put them in practice.

Yeah. Yeah.

Hello.

2000 years ago.

Right.

It's just not that exciting though. You know, it's like back to people practicing the four steps. It's like, well, just give me another book. Like, just give me another cool insight, you know? But it's really, I think, how we're designed.

Yeah.

That Eugene Peterson book title from the Nietzsche quote, which is a long obedience in the same direction. It's a mundane Yeah. Often just living out daily practice in the same direction over time is what leads to transformation. You just didn't know you'd have to go to Amarillo to get it.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah.

And I think we're always living in a direction. You know, I think that's one of the things I like about how the model really emphasizes practice. We might be living in the direction of our pain or in the direction of our destructive coping. We're always practicing something directionally. So I love that this helps you continue to go back in the direction of truth.

Yeah.

The path of life versus the path of destruction.

Like, totally. Yes. Choose life.

Yeah.

I love how Terry, like, will grab him, but he'll work with a client and he'll say, okay, now you could continue going down this path and we know where that leads, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

Or I have this one trick pony.

Yeah.

To take you another direction. What would you do?

Yeah. Yeah. It's a good impression.

Yeah.

Too much time with that guy.

Yeah.

But not enough.

Right, right.

Yeah.

You got Sue Johnson down very well, Terry Harkin.

Yeah, yeah.

I miss my calling.

Could do your own stand-up show.

It'd be very niche, but only therapists would get it.

Yeah. Right.

It's the therapy comedy gig.

Yeah.

Can I ask you about the word calling intentionally? Because as I'm sitting here, I'm thinking you two have may read this book. Have you read Parker Palmer's book, Let yout Life Speak?

No, sounds like a nominal book.

I reread it like once a year.

But he.

Looks at the word vocation, right? In the Latin, it's voce for voice. So a vocation is a voice that's like essentially calling you towards something, right? And so when I was on your website, like you use that word specifically, you say it's a calling. And I don't know if many therapists say that. And so I'm curious, that feels very intentional for you. And so I'm wondering about that and how would you communicate that?

Gosh, that's such a great question. And I wasn't aware that other therapists may not use that language because I guess it's just so been part of my life. I think of a calling, I think it's, I can't do anything else. I just can't. I have to, I have to birth this into the world. I have to do this work. It, it's like a magnet that pulls you forward, you know, and, and that has, that's how I have felt about being a therapist and about writing this book is it's a calling because I can't do anything else. You know, it must come to fruition. And, and my heart is that no one would. to help everyone, but that as many people could feel less alone in their pain. You know, that is one of the hardest feelings. It's not just the pain, but being completely alone and having no idea what's going on with you and no one to guide you. And so that, you know, that compels me. It compels me to be that person for someone to put my hand in their hand and say, you know, like we said earlier, I may not have the answers, But I really believe there is one and finding that will help you. So calling is for me, I can't do anything else.

Well, one of the things on your website says, Give your pain the space to speak, right? I was just thinking like, if vocation, which is calling, it's voice, we're giving voice to something and it seems like giving voice to something is very important in the work that you do. and I, I, I just like the language because I, I know we're like all RT therapists, but we don't always use the same language in how we describe. It seems like getting a client to have a voice and speak is at the heart of, of your work.

Yes.

We actually hang out with this for a little bit because I think this is one of the things that I remember when I was starting out as a therapist and I'd watch, you know, the greats do their work.

Yeah.

And I would call it, I would watch them and I would sit with a client, I would struggle, I wouldn't know what to do and I'd be floundering around. And, but then I'd see like, you know, Sharon May walk in the room and she'd ask this like absolutely poignant question that, you know, that finally gets to the heart of the pain or, you know, Terry, when he has that, like, I used to call it the master of the third question.

That's great.

Because I could get the first question most of the time.

Yeah.

Second question, I'd be like the blind squirrel, you know, from what not. But man, that third question of like when you finally hit the pain point where it's like, yeah, that's it.

Yeah.

You know, I think that's part of what I'm picking up from what you're writing a lot, Monica, is like finding that question that thing that really orients around Like naming that pain for exactly what it is.

That's it. Yes. That there's, there's, there's no greater exhale in my experience than someone finally naming it, getting it, that that's it. That's it. That's, that's when we love a book or a group or a movie, it's like, oh, they named it. They named it.

That's what it's like.

That's it. You know, and I think that that is, the first step to freedom, you know, because until you find that name, you don't even know what direction to go, right? Until you know what's hurting, you don't know what to do.

Yeah.

Maybe you could help us like to kind of hear a little bit of your tricks, you know, this is one of my favorite parts of the podcast.

Yeah. Okay.

Like, okay, you're listening to the great Monica, you know, she's got the voice that will, you know, whip you around to like your, your mindfulness meditations, like bring it, bring you to like that core piece. But I'm curious around like, how do you help your clients, like have, like when, when you know you've gotten to that name, what are some of the, yeah. Help them to name it.

Yeah.

I mean, gosh, several things come to mind. I don't know that they're impressive tricks, but, you know, I mean, the first thing is, is what we're all doing is just not being afraid to stay with it, you know, I mean, so often, and maybe it's because I also work with a lot of women. I don't know what, you know, maybe This is women versus men. I don't know. And I don't want to generalize, but so often people dismiss their own story. They've been taught not to listen. They minimize everything. And so there's almost not an amplification, but just allowing the space for we're not going to look away. Like we said earlier, we're not going to look away. That does make sense. Yeah, I would feel that way. That is really hard. Yeah, that doesn't feel okay to me, you know, being a full human back to their humanity and making space for that. And then, then I often, you know, one of the things that a lot of clients seem to resonate with is when we're trying to name maybe the beliefs they have or the feelings, you know, is I, as we talk a lot about like, I'm like the noise machine in the hall and like, let's just be quiet and listen to it. You know, because very often we forget it's there, but that's what these beliefs and these feelings are like all the time. I'm inadequate. Not enough. I'm unlovable. I'm something's wrong with me. They're always there, right? Or, you know, when you drive home from a work meeting or from a dinner party, it's finally quiet. You had a weird conversation. What comes for you? What comes for you? And that, you know, listening to that really helps people I find or whatever's best, you know, specific for their life helps them hear that thing that we can't hear. You know, remember those magic eye posters in the mall kiosks?

Yeah.

I always think about those, you know, and that's why I say a client's lot is like you have to look just right. It's always there, the name for your pain. It's always there, the feelings that you're believing. But you have to just let your eyes relax enough and look in the right way to see it. And then boom, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And then you start to make sense. so I think that's a really big thing I emphasize too, a lot of my work is, is I've never met someone who doesn't make sense. Like what they're doing may be destructive, but they make sense. And I think that that's a relief for people that, okay, I make sense. Those are things that come to mind.

Yeah, I like that. So what I'm hearing from you is number one, like, don't let them move from it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think don't look away.

Yeah, let's hang out there and then like almost stop the moment.

Mm-.

Slow it down and force them to listen.

Yeah.

That's so great.

Mm-.

That's a great metaphor because even in my office right now, they pipe in these white noise.

Yeah.

For the office so that they'll kind of keep the loudness down and It's, that is the soundtrack that's on all day.

Yeah.

Like I've been, I talk about a record, the record of the tape, but depending on how old the client is, the whole thing is not.

Right.

Yeah.

But yeah, it is that noise machine in the hallway that's just on all day. It's, you can't even notice it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Until you stop.

How do you use that?

Yeah. And it's, and it's a relief sometimes people realize like, wow, I am walking around all the time thinking, I'm bad or thinking I'm inadequate. You know, when they really stop to listen, it's like, wow, every time I, you know, volunteer for something or go up for a job promotion, I'm thinking I'm not worthy. You know, they start to hear it, and I think that's so freeing.

Yeah.

And I think this is the other. So I love that. And you kind of differentiate, like, this idea of, like, there's something wrong with me.

Yeah.

Versus this, like, the undercurrent.

Yeah.

How can you, like, any. I think there's a. I can't remember exactly where.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was trying to be a. Do my due diligence.

It's hard. That's the hardest part about having a podcast. I've read so many books. I can't even tell you.

Yeah.

But you talk about this audible sigh, you know, like, of, like, relief of, like, yes, and, yeah. So like a person that's like, I'm naming myself as my pain. Like that.

I'm believing that story that the pain has told me. Yeah.

Yeah.

I think there's two audible sighs, really. There's one that's when you name the pain correctly. Yes, I do feel like that. I do feel like something's wrong with me. That's it. That's it. Someone finally told me what it is. Or, you know, or there's an actual diagnosis. And then I think the second one is like waking up from a bad dream. But that's not true. That's not who you are. That's how you have felt. But that's the, that is not actually the truth of who God made you to be. That is a second sigh. That is like the biggest relief. So validation and naming it. And, and that's the only way you get to the truth is by figuring out what was not true.

So good.

Yeah.

What, what do you think? Cause I'm, I guess, I mean, I don't want to make an assumption here, but you probably work with a lot of people of faith backgrounds.

I do. I work, yeah, I think I see, I wouldn't venture now, I'm not great with numbers, as we know from earlier discussions about years. You know, yes, I do work with a lot of people of faith. A lot of people.

Well, and this doesn't have to apply just to them, but I think one of the, the biggest challenges people can pretty readily, I mean, if we, if you allow them to sit in it, like you said, and not look away, they can name their pain and they can identify how they cope. It is a really hard shift to move into your truth. Yeah, I find as a Christian to actually believe it because we believe a lot of life cliche, like, okay, I know that God loves me. Yeah, I know that I have worth, but it's, it's stuck up here. Really?

Totally.

Yeah.

It's not, and maybe that's the practice piece, just embody it to move it from. head to heart. But I'm wondering if in the room, is there something you come back to time and time again to help them make that shift in their experience?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, one thing that comes to mind is helping them embody it. And what I mean by that is, you know, sure there's embodied things in the room that you can practice, but even more specifically outside of the room, So if you believed you were worthy enough to be friends with that person, wouldn't you text them? So you're so acting out the truth. Yeah, I, you know, I may not feel it and I'm really trying to practice the truth, but the truth is I am worthy. So I'm going to send the text. Something as small as that, you know, that I'm, I'm afraid that I'll lose everyone in my life if I have a boundary. Well, let's try. Let's see what happens, you know, with care, of course, but practicing living out the truth, I think is a way for them to to then physically experience, wow, this is what it's like to believe I'm worthy of this. This is what it feels like. And that can help feed that loop of choosing truth.

Yeah, it's like a reinforcing.

Yes.

And you know, sometimes people will use a phrase like fake it till you make it, you know, or something.

Yes.

The idea that we can take a stance and do something without having to fully embody it yet, or believe.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. It's really embracing it until you feel it. you know, or believing it until you feel it. Yeah, it's good.

That.

That head to heart piece, you know, it's. It's kind of like you're. That zone of, like, when you're sitting there in Amarilla, you know? Oh, yeah. I am healed.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's there.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's awesome.

Was it when Phil came and did worship? Was that the moment that day, or.

Did some other-- no, I think it was just Terry and Sharon talking. I mean, that moment, I cried through his song. I mean, just because, you know, his miscarriage song, for those people that weren't there, and, you know, this beautiful song written by a man, which I think was very poignant about miscarriage, I bawled through that just out of compassion. It just was someone naming pain. that, you know, that's. Of course, that's my lens, right? From the book that I wrote. But that is how I saw it. This is so powerful. He's not fixing it for anyone. He's just naming it out loud. But for me, it was more even just the opening remarks and just sitting through Terry and Sharon and, you know, and then Nicole Sosnowski's breakout, just different moments of seeing, wow, this is God's work, you know?

And.

And this is. It doesn't have to be separate from my faith, even though I know that. intellectually, I just experienced it more.

Yeah. Yeah.

Lance, I feel like I'm watching your video and you got something that's percolating inside your head. So just go where you're gonna go. That's what I'm encouraging you.

I think, you know, the. The beauty of. just what we have as believers. I think I was, I was kind of preparing for today and I was like struggling with, like a client from, from the other night. Just that was kind of, it was, it's so weird. Like it was a case that should, shouldn't bother me, right?

Interesting.

Yeah.

And like it woke me up. and like, I really get woken up by a client, but man, something happened and it was like, I just couldn't shake it. And I was just sitting there struggling last night and I think this comfort, this comfort in trusting in is kind of the, this is what you're seeing in my face, Rhett. I don't know if we'll figure out what we can do with it now.

Yeah. Yeah.

But, you know, like, I think this idea of, like, what we see versus what's really going on, you know, the, I think that miscarriages song, you know, that, you know, we see death.

You.

Know, with, with the loss of a child. And then he poignantly takes this, like, horrible experience for anybody who's been through it. it, and he turns it, and he says, you know, the first light that they saw was the light of Heaven, you know? And, like, there's just, like, how did the warm embrace of, you know, like, it's just such a beautiful thing. And I think it's just. I think sometimes in therapy, there's just things that mess us up, you know, and as therapist and.

This.

This return to call of, like, you know, there is. There is. There is a hope that is eternal.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I think that's what you're seeing in my face right now, red, is, like, returning to the hope that is eternal.

Yeah. When. Yeah.

When I'm struggling with a client or whatever, like, I can return to that hope that is eternal.

That's good.

It's good.

I feel a great comfort in a God that's bigger than, you know, than what I'm seeing. We see, we hear a lot, right? And we see a lot. And I think that that idea that even though this is bleak, there's someone bigger here that can help, right? There is, and there is something, some eternal hope. Yeah, it's good.

Yeah, I know you look like you're in contemplation. And so I think I was just curious, you know, and Lance and I had a professor at Fuller to not, we went to Fuller at different times, but Dr. Ray Anderson and did a lot of like integration work. He was, he was, he was a, he was a theologian, but he was a theologian on staff that would come into counseling classes and try to get us to like, but I was, this goes to the RT community. I was thinking he always would tell that story about the demon possessed man. Jesus heals by sending him off into the the herd of swine.

Yeah.

And there's this phrase, it's in Mark and Luke where they come back the people and it says they find him sitting by Jesus clothed and in his right mind where the passage described him as being naked his whole.

Yeah.

And he used to stress on us that it's not that Jesus was carrying around all these clothes, right? It's like it's that the community probably came out and like clothed him. and, wow, intended to his needs. And I don't know, I was just, I guess I was thinking about that when you're talking about faith, Lance. And then I'm thinking about the RT community, right? It's that it's a community that tries to close people and tend to people's needs and doing so encourage us to do the same with clients and the people we do life with.

It's good.

And it's just an example like, yeah, there's healing right away in that moment, kind of, even though he'd been suffering forever.

Yeah.

But Jesus, it seems like he allows other people to participate in that healing. There's a community that has to get involved. I'm not going anywhere with that. I was just reflecting as you were sharing.

So true. I love the idea of the community helping and the warmth of RT that there's, what I, what I feel very passionate about in mental health is a, I think how to put this, a warmth, a non-pathologizing a, a we're human too approach to it, you know? And I, I love that, you know, that the community came around and when they could have been like, hey, this guy's been naked running around. We're out of here, you know? But instead they, they moved towards him. They moved towards him, which I, I yeah.

You're back to that language again of kind of like not looking away, moving towards people.

Yeah. Yeah.

And warmth.

Yeah.

You can be the best therapist in the world. World. But if people come in your room and don't experience warmth, I don't think they'll be back.

No.

Yeah.

And I don't think they'll heal as deeply as they could with that sense of emotional safety.

What I'm curious, Monica, what you do to, for yourself, maybe to, to be the type of therapist that is able to show up and exude warmth and the ability to be with people, not look away. Like, I'm wondering over the years, if there's any specific practices or things that have been helpful for you that you try to do.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm sure there's several. But what comes to mind first is never forgetting what it's like to be the one in the client chair, never forgetting what it's like to be the one hurting in need, unsure with questions, looking to someone because they're, for better or worse, there can be that sort of power differential, which we have to be really careful with. You're looking to someone for help. And so I think that warmth and just being a genuine, loving, welcoming human, I think is something that goes a long way.

Right?

And so that would be the main thing. That's just never forgetting. They're forgetting what it's like. You know, I think most of us that practice therapy have had our own journey or been to therapy or, you know, had some sort of experience like that, even though it may all be different. to remembering what it's like.

Got to remember.

Yeah, because we can get busy, we can get overly clinical, we can get overly scheduled, you know, we can get burned out, right? It's just normal. And then we can miss the person in front of us and see them more as a project rather person, you know?

Yeah.

I, I'm gonna do a little tie right here. I want to do a weave.

Yeah.

Cause this is so good. I, when you're talking about the, the, the demon act, I was thinking about this whole passage and even your book and, like remembering what it's like, you know, and I love in the passage, it talks about how like they were trying to subdue him, right?

Yeah.

They're trying to take them down. They're like, stop it, stop it, stop it. Nobody can do it, right?

Yeah.

But Jesus asked this question to him. He says, what is your name?

Whoa.

Wow.

I just got chills. Whoa.

Didn't drop my mic right here.

Wow.

That is your name.

Wow.

And once. Once the. Once it is named D, like Legion.

. Yeah.

Right.

You know, then they start like, like they start like begging to Jesus. And I think that's so fascinating that it is fascinating. If we just slow it down instead of fighting it so hard. You know, you talk about holding space.

Yeah.

All of the like, what is your name?

Yeah, that's good.

Wow.

So powerful, Lance.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm going to be thinking about that.

For a while.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, and not to tie it too much, but, you know, before Jesus asked the name of the demons, like, what. What we all saw was, well, this guy is out of his mind. Right. And it turns out that there was a reason. There was a name. There was something happening inside of him, you know, which I think we can extrapolate to the work that we.

So.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, there's. I'll have to sit on it for a while, but there's a lot of importance. It sounds like around, like, speaking and naming things, giving a voice to things.

And clothes.

Yeah, always.

Yeah.

Well, and allowing the client to give voice and to speak and to name and not. we can help them. But in that passage, Jesus asked that he asked specifically for him. Like, what's his name? He didn't come in and say, you are this or you are that. Like, what is right? And there's. There's, like, an empowerment and empowering there, you know, for him to speak as. I don't know, just to voice that. So I'm gonna be thinking about that a lot this week, probably in therapy sessions.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just quit fighting this crazy.

The. The.

The demon. Like, try. Quit trying to subdue that part.

That's good.

To the heart, you know?

And. Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

As soon as we can name it, we slow it down. We have the noise machine or whatever it may be.

Yeah.

In that space, we can call it out and bring in the truth in such a powerful way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's something that we as humans struggle to do for each other because it's uncomfortable, right? It's uncomfortable to slow down when someone's in pain. You want to, you want to relieve it. It's not a bad, it's not a bad urge to want to relieve someone's pain, right? But sometimes we go too fast.

Mm-.

Yeah, it's good.

I'd be curious not to be the bring up the bad news, but as we wind down here, I know all of us are not full-time podcasters. We have to see, we get to see, we get to work with clients. We have the ability to work with clients. In our remaining time together, five or six minutes, I'm wondering, Monica, is there anything you just want to share that's really important? You know, you talked about the audience being, you know, could be us as practitioners or people listening who are clients, some people who might read your book. I'm wondering what you think you want to share with them that has just been on your heart?

Yeah, I mean, you know, what comes to mind first is just that you're not alone. You know, I think that's one of the biggest things that people in pain need to know and people that are helping them, right? Is you're not alone. I think that that can be one of the most painful parts of suffering and what often keeps people stuck and what feeds the narratives that something is wrong with them is that they're alone in their pain. And so that they're not alone, even if they don't know what's going on. And then for practitioners, you know, that you're not alone, right? Which is why I love what you guys are doing with creating so much connection, right? Is that we really need each other, not just to learn, to keep the energy for the really good work that we're doing.

There's this famous quote by C.S. Lewis. He says something like, Friendship is born at the moment that another person says to you, what? You too, I thought I was the only one.

Yes.

Yeah, I love that quote.

Yeah.

The idea of, oh, I am not alone in this.

Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's really good.

Yeah.

I'm just so blessed by you today, Monica. Thank you so much for being with us today and excited to see what happens in the future. And I just, you know, I'm so touched that, you know, there is a person that was able to hear your story.

Yeah.

That now there is a mold like you, you carry that, that calling now.

Yeah.

And now you get to hear other people's stories, and, and you are a liberator for people, so I'm thankful for you.

Thank you. Thank you for saying that. I really appreciate that. And I really resonate with the idea of being a liberator. I'm. That feels like what I want to help people with. And, and it was, you know, Lance has read part of the book. It was a therapist that I was terrified to go to see that he helped me so much. I thought if I can do one thing in this life, it'd be to help people like he did. So that's what we're all doing. I just, I just love our field so much.

Yeah.

And I would love for people, I mean, your book comes out May 13th, but you can is the best place as Amazon, I guess, to pre-order. Yeah, I think on your page.

Yeah, you can pre-order it really anywhere. I mean, even small bookstores have it, Barnes & Noble just So whoever you want to support, you know, as far as book sellers, but yes, preorder and it's your pain has a name and preorders, which, you know, you guys probably already know. I had heard this, but it's really huge for authors. So if you want the book, it's best to just go ahead and preorder it and you won't get it till May. But, but yeah, they can find it there. And then I'm just at monicadchristina.com and same on Instagram, monicadchristina. with no issue.

And your podcast still be coming.

Yeah, still be coming.

Maybe you want to pause a little bit to.

Yeah, I'm gonna take a break. I have a six-part series where I'm walking people through how to name their pain, kind of describing the book a little bit, getting in sort of a casual, fun way. But, yeah, I'm going to take a little pause afterwards to, you know, work on the next book.

Well, and this is a call to all the RT community to.

Yeah.

Order that book.

Thanks.

And then when it becomes live on Amazon, we need to all leave reviews.

Yes.

Thanks for saying that, right?

That's important. We'll make sure we rally the groups, right, Lance?

May 13th, write your review. I'll be in Ireland, but I will write a review for you.

It'll be a really good one from Ireland, I'm sure. That sounds amazing.

Accent and all.

Yeah.

It's a jig.

Yeah.

Perfect. Thanks for coming on.

And Lance, I think we'll do an episode two with her at some point, right? Absolutely. We'll dive deep into some things. Yeah.

I'd love that.

I would love that. Thank you, guys. It was really a pleasure and you're fun to talk to. And I love your synergy together. You know, it's really great.

Well, you know, I actually, I mean, I'll be honest with you, I texted somebody during our podcast and I said, Mom, we're on with Monica. she's got such great energy. I love this. Oh, there's another person in the RT Community.

Yeah.

So it's been a lot of fun. So thank you for coming on. And we'll look forward to connecting soon. Everyone, take care.

Cheers.

Bye. Thank you.

Bye.