https://www.listennotes.com/e/ba8ea193e27747e89e81548d308e791f

Lance, what's up, man?

Rhett, man, I feel like it's been forever.

Since last night. Tell everyone why we do the RT dialogue podcast.

Man, we do this because we are family. We love RT, we love restoration therapy and what it's done in our lives and what it does for our clients. And our big hope is that we would really build that family. And then also at the end of every episode, we really want you to be like, Hey, I'm gonna go use that in therapy today. So we'll wanna give you a little nugget that you can just take home and go use today.

Cool.

And I'm gonna actually let you introduce our guests 'cause you actually just spent time with them this last week. And I really just met Clint for the first time. really in February in Amarillo of all places.

Yeah.

The summit. I knew his name. I. I've followed him online for quite a while, but first time. But you guys just finished up an anxiety training, so I'll let you introduce him, and we'll kind of run from there.

Yeah, man. So today we are super blessed. This guy is really good friends with one of my best friends. my surfing compadre Andrew last, they both studied at Fuller together in 2000. Did y'all finish in 2010?

Yep.

Yeah, finished in 2010.

I didn't know that connection. That's cool.

Yeah.

So I've always heard about him and then I got to meet him and you know, sometimes like you hear about people and you're like, yeah, they don't really like pay off as much. let me tell you about Clint. When I mean, whoa, this guy's real deal. He's got a great passion. He's down in Shreveport, Louisiana, and it was really stoked to talk with him today. He's, he is pretty, you know, he's got a Ted Talk. He's got an awesome podcast over 150 episodes, has a amazing practice. He's got the practice I always dreamed of. He has, he hits heart, mind, body, soul. He has pastoral counselors, he has therapists, he has doctors and physical therapists, right? So guys, we are in for a treat. I want to learn from this guy today. Clint Davis, welcome.

Yeah, thanks for having me guys. Yeah, it's been fun reconnecting with you guys and Lance, especially you just, you know, I think it's always fun when you have somebody that you love like Andrew, you know, he was, Just my best friend at Fuller. I mean, just there through, you know, those two hard years of kind of healing and growing and learning. And then he was in my wedding and, you know, we just kept in touch over the years and such a great guy. And so when you find somebody, like, I knew you guys were really close. And so it's like such an easy transition because it's like, you really love somebody and they love somebody. Then it's like, well, you know, that's, that's easy. So, yeah, man, it was great hanging out with you this last, felt like a week, but it was three days.

I know.

Anxiety and. Yeah, man, it was great to meet you at the summit. And I felt like, you know, just kindred spirits and, you know, the RT world and what we do and, you know, the things, the way in which you carry yourself and talk about things. But like I said, I'm gonna drive over there.

I wish we had more time to talk then.

I.

You.

I think you probably. I was so maxed out conversationally.

Yeah.

Like, I was just worn out. Like, I wanted to talk to more people, but by the end of the day, my brain was, like, fried. I could. I could hardly hold the conversation. I kind of felt bad. I just want to kind of sit in the lobby and stare, you know?

That's okay, man. We got plenty of time.

Yeah, totally. So I. You already kind of hit on it, so walk us through your journey to RT, because it sounds like it came through Fuller around 2010, but. Walk us through like leading up to that, how you got to Fuller and how you got exposed to RT, what that looked like for you.

So for me, I'm from Louisiana, so born and raised here. I joined the military in 2001, the Army National Guard. Our recruiter said, you know, nothing's going on, you can, you know, I didn't make great grades. And so my parents, yeah, really couldn't afford college. And so I was like, well, I'll join the National Guard, they'll pay for my college, and I'll do two weeks a year and one week in a month. So second week of basic training is 9/11.

Oh my god.

Sitting on the rifle range, you know, and they start calling us and they're like, Hey, you gotta go, you know, we gotta go back. We're under attack. We thought it was a drill. And then we get to this like hallway and they turn all these TVs and the towers are, you know, smoking and everything goes crazy. And so for a few months, just really hardcore training there, knowing we're gonna go to war right after. So did that and then came back to Alexandria area. It's really, you know, basic training was really traumatizing for me just because of all of that stuff. And so I was pretty emotionally numb, you know, I made a good soldier, but not really, you know, self-aware person. Plus, like we all know, we have all the baggage we bring into that stuff. And then I did Hurricane Katrina. So I went to the Superdome Hurricane Katrina, which was, oh, I'm sorry. I did Afghanistan. So. a year and a half.

Little spot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to Afghanistan for nine months. I was like, when did. I got confused. So didn't. Did Afghanistan 03? Nine months there as a combat engineer, came back, and I got into just drugs and alcohol and women and just all the things I could do to cope with, you know, you know, the last 20 years of my life. And I eventually had a panic attack. I remember being on my mom's floor at our house, and I was gripping the carpet as this long carpet. I remember just freaking out and calling her, and she came. home and got me into therapy. And it was the first time, like, somebody had said anything about trauma, anything about post-traumatic stress disorder and anything about the Bible together. I'd grown up in the church, but really never heard about addiction or, you know, it's just legalistic kind of Southern Baptist. And, man, that was the trajectory of, like, I started finding some healing in that therapy and just being heard and validated and understood and. and then I went to Katrina, Superdome for Hurricane Katrina. So if people don't know, that's, you know, we had a huge hurricane down south. It was one of the largest hurricanes ever recorded. And the Superdome became a haven for people in those two days. So there's about 30, 000 New Orleans residents and 250 military personnel or police, and we were just trapped in the Dome for five days without water, food. and you can imagine what everybody did to one another. So it was really traumatic. Came back from that about four months later, stayed in therapy, got in therapy, ended up going to get my bachelor's in psychology. And then I was like, man, this is, this is really helpful for me. I want to do this. And so I was reading Rob Bell's book before he became extremely kind of liberal in my theology. But he, he wrote Velvet Elvis. Do you guys remember that book?

Oh, yeah. I remember when that came out, it was huge. Yeah.

And so it was just such a, like, oh, man, wait, legalism is not the gospel. And for my little Southern brain, like, that's all I knew. And so it was really eye-opening and.

So I looked on the back, and.

It said he went to Fuller, and I was like, what is Fuller? And so all I knew was, like, Dallas Theological or New Orleans Baptist. And so it talks about integration and integrating psychology and theology, and I was like, oh, man, that sounds interesting, but I don't have any money, and that's gonna. It's California's might as be, you know, Jupiter. And, but the Lord just really pushed me. And so I packed up and came to Fuller. And so my first class at Fuller was Terry and Sharon's first class.

Oh.

Yep. So that, they moved there the same quarter and, and, you know, class that, that I moved there. And so RT was the first, you know, we were doing EFT with Jim Ferro and, you know, learning all these other theories, but Terry just, you know, walked in and started doing you know, love and trust and pain cycle and four steps. And I was like, oh my gosh, like I'm sold. Like it just changed my life because I was just integrating that into my own stuff and into my own therapy and, and with my, at the time, girlfriend who was living in North Carolina, at least my wife now. And, she came over and moved to Fuller and then Sharon took us, Sharon and Terry took us through, healthy marriages successful ministries is what it was called.

Strong marriages successful ministries.

Yeah, yeah. and now it's marriage strong or really strong. Relate strong.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah, man, that was kind of how I got introduced to RT was doing it, having it done to me, and then it just being kind of the primary way in which I learned how to be a marriage and family therapist. Long, short story.

Yeah. You know, it's just the world's small. And so in 2007, I hosted Rob Bell our college ministry did. We hosted him at UCLA when he wrote the book Sex God about sexuality and stuff. We hosted him on the UCLA campus and it was great actually. He was backstage with the kids hanging out. I just found him actually to be a very quiet, like kind of just a really humble guy. Didn't like too much attention stuff. It was really interesting. it's funny how, like, the world's kind of, like, interweave. But I remember when that book came out, Velvet Elvis. That was huge.

I.

So that was 2008, you said, or 2000. Okay.

2008. Eight.

2008, 2010. You do the MSMFT program, essentially.

What do you do? Practicum at Foothill Family Services.

Okay.

Yeah.

Very, very cool.

Yeah, it was not a great, it was not a great experience. It was hard, man. It was just different learning, you know, like really valuing RT, but then also learning these other people having these other models that they want to be like, no, you have to do this or you should do this. And it, you know, yeah, it wasn't as helpful as RT in my opinion.

So.

Yeah, I didn't learn any model in my practicum. It was just like the Wild, Wild West and my supervisor at my place was, he was trained out of like a psychodynamic model and stuff. And, you left, I left Fuller, like not having a handle, like on any model, really a couple of different ones. So I'm always envious of you who came from Fuller and you're like, okay, this is the model that I love.

This is what we do.

This is what we do. when did you head back to Shreveport or Louisiana? Was that pretty soon?

Yes. So my wife got into. She's a dietitian or was she got into an internship. She applied all over the country, but got into an internship in Shreveport. So I'm not from Shreveport. Had never really been around Shreveport. We. I went to Louisiana Tech, which was in Ruston, which is about an hour and a half east of Shreveport. and so she got into the VA internship here and so we moved to Shreveport in 2000, excuse me, halfway through 2010. Well, she moved back early and I finished my practicum hours and I worked as an in-home counselor doing crisis intervention. I had a pager and the pager could go off anytime and I'd have to drive to wherever these crises were. try to calm it down, take some notes, and then refer them to somewhere local. I did that for a while, which was insane. I did some prison counseling where they'd bring me into the prison and I'd do groups and they'd lock me in. And that was crazy. And then I got a job working as an MST therapist, which is multi-systemic therapy. So I would do in-home counseling with kids who are at risk for out-of-home placement. So they've done all the things and now they're going to remove them from the home. And this is your last shot to kind of get their family together. so you would see those, you would have about five families on your caseload and see them three to four times a week. And you'd go to court, you'd go to their home, you'd go in their home, you'd go to their school, you'd be really involved heavily. And I just found myself the five years I worked for them just being like, this doesn't work. Like it changes behavior temporarily, but as soon as the therapist leaves, like, you know, everybody goes back to what they were doing because there's nothing changing their actual belief system. and at the time, you know, there was no, nobody was doing EMDR. Nobody really understood trauma here in Treeport. Our court systems are, are trafficking issues, like human trafficking issues. Nobody was talking about trauma. And I was coming back with an NFT. There was no mfts either. I mean, everybody here is basically an LPC. And so I'm talking about Family Systems Theory, and they're like, what? You know, I'm like, Bowen and, you know, all these things and. and they just, nobody knew what I was talking about. And so Fuller, I realized real quickly that Fuller just gave me such a great education. And I was using RT to teach conferences and marriage conferences and parenting conferences right out the gate, just because nobody was, no counselors were, it felt like very few were extroverted and were willing to go out and talk. Everybody's kind of in their office trying to do the thing. And for whatever reason, God just kind of opened that door. I ended up running a grant for veterans and that got me out in the community, talking to people, teaching people about trauma and veteran trauma. And I started working with human trafficking. So I did human trafficking. We partnered with the FBI and a nonprofit for some years, helped write some programming with them. And I was working for the Methodist Children's Home doing the MST program and they approached me and said, Hey, we don't really want you doing the rest of this stuff. Like we just want you to see Methodist pastors. and that was 2000, end of 2017-18 maybe. And I was like, well, I'm not going to do that. So I guess I'm quitting. So I talked to some people and quit and speaking of RT, my pain cycle would be, you can't put your name on this because you're going to seem arrogant. So if you call it Clint Davis counseling, that's really arrogant because you need to make things about Jesus. and about other people and not big things about yourself. So I wrestled with like a bunch of names, Wellspring Counseling, you know, just again, not to hate on whatever anybody else does, but like, but all my friends were kind of like, look, people know you in the community. If you name it something else, they're not going to know it's you and they trust you and they trust your work. So just just name it Clint Davis Counseling like that. That sounds like a good name. I'm like, all right, so I do it. and then the reality is that it kind of grew. And my dream was just to have an office with a nice leather chair and do counseling. Yes. And that was 2018.

Is it one of those leather chairs that had like little back thing to it?

Oh yeah, wing back kind of yeah. Yeah, that's right.

And a little stool that you can throw your notes on?

That's right, that's right. Y'all know the therapy dream, the vision. so, yeah, so that happened. And then the practice is just, you know, it's been eight years now and it's kind of turned into what it's turned into. So it's been crazy.

Well, that's the great thing about grad school. You get to grad school and it just seems like it's automatic just to still graduate and open a practice. There's not, there's nothing to it.

Yeah, right. Just seven years of grinding and a decade of, you know, What.

I'm always curious with the people who love RT. Like, was there ever like a specific moment where there's something clicked with you where you're like, okay, this is the model, you know, was there an interaction either with the Hargraves or some component of the painter P cycle or four steps or just something that, you know, stood out to you is like, this is why I want to follow this model, use this model, go down this road.

Probably all of that. I mean, the Hargraves, you all know them. They're incredible. And, you know, when you don't have healthy relationships necessarily with your parents or you've had, you know, trauma there that you've not dealt with, they were just very knowable and approachable. And, you know, what I really loved about it is that they, they shared their story and the stuff they were still working on, and they still do.

Right.

Even this weekend. um, and that was like, for me, very validating because that's kind of how I just approach things. I don't, you know, I like to just be myself and to talk about what God's doing in my life and both of my weaknesses. And I don't like to, but I know I'm called to do that. And so that was just what I knew about therapy was that you could, you know, you self-disclose a little bit, you do it in a healthy way, but, you know, it helps to join with your clients and to teach the model and, and to just be real and to show your pain cycle to help people walk through it. And so for me, that was just what really clicked for me was the authenticity of it. was that a lot of the other classes and models, there was nobody like doing it and embodying the model. And even this weekend, it really clicked for me like, you know, 17 years later, 15 years later, it's like, oh yeah, like it's so theologically rich as well. So when you go, I was telling somebody this morning in a session like you, you can believe in Jesus. But he asked us to follow him, you know, to embody Christ, to be Christ, to turn into Christ in our sanctification journey. And with RT, it's one of the only models where you're, you're challenged to do that, where you're like, okay, yeah, we worked through your trauma. Yeah, we validated you. Yes, we understand. Now, how are you going to live that out in your life? And for me, that was just great because it made me take personal responsibility. You know, it made me look at my life and go, where am I messed up? Where, like, what am I responsible for instead of blaming my mom and dad for everything or my military trauma or my abuse or whatever's gone on. Like, sure, I need validation. I need to be understood, but that doesn't make me change. And acting on the belief that I have about Christ and who he says that I am is where faith comes in. And so I just think it's such a beautiful, for me, it was the, the rich theology underneath it that, that catapulted me and, and loving it and then doing it worked, you know, like, it actually works and it really helps people. And even as I, like, dumb intern who feels like you're just like deer in headlights, you know, a thousand things coming at you. Having, you know, a pain and peace cycle and a model and having my own life that I'd worked through was such an, there's access there. There's the, you know, it's easier. And so that's kind of where, where it all solidified for me.

I love that. It's so good. I think that's, that is the beauty. I mean, I, I find that there's so many models out there that are, They just don't really, there's a lack of being able to say like, this is right, this is wrong. We talk about violations of love and trust. We're not afraid, we recognize how our destructive entitlements and how they flow. So I totally agree with that. And just that we lean on this idea of, I feel like there's so many models that are just like, you just have to deal with it, accept it. That's the way it is. you know, even, you know, it's like, how. How can you just build a little bit more, you know, buffer inside of your heart to deal with it? But, no, I think restoration therapy really is a change model that. That really pushes us towards being better people, being the people that we're called to be, just like Christ calls us to be more like him, you know, that, you know, absolutely. So I do love that as well.

Yeah, it's also, it's harder with RT, I think, for your own per, well, okay, that's the other thing about RT. I was still in my clinicians this morning. I was going through their pain cycles and kind of walking through a couple of stuff. And, and, and I was saying, you know, it's, it's interesting because, with RT, you ha, it, unlike a lot of models, you have to actually embody it and do it yourself. and I would say this for new clinicians who are coming into RT or just people maybe have been into it for a long time. You know, if you're not living the four steps in your own life, if you're not modeling that, if you don't have that centered, like not that you don't have things to learn. I mean, I learned two new words about myself last week that I was like, oh my gosh, this is the problem. But I've known my four unknown, not good enough, unworthy words for 15 years and I've just been, you know, trying to relentlessly attack them. But if you don't know them, then when you're teaching other people to do it, you're asking them to do something that you don't do. And so you can take other models and you can learn the information and you can transfer that information to clients and tell them about it and intellectualize the problem. But you don't ever have to really do the model. And in this model, I think in order to actually be a really good RT therapist, you have to be doing it and living it and embodying it. and I think that I truly believe that comes from the deep theology that's underneath it because we're talking about how God has wired us to be when we're being the Imago Dei, we're walking in his image, we're walking in authenticity of our skills and our resources and our personalities and our temperament. And when all that comes together, like God can use that for his good and his glory and everybody else's. But if we're not doing that, then we're just, you know, playing a game.

Owch. And I know there's probably a lot of us that are probably, you know, we get interested in restoration therapy because it, because we see the way it works, but then there's this amazing shift when we allow it to change our lives. So good.

You know, it's and hard. Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like, I feel like we've probably all had those moments. I know you have too, Rhett.

Yeah, I was just thinking this is the reason. I mean, we were talking about this before we started the importance of community. Like, it's easy. I mean, I didn't. I wasn't. I left Fuller right before Terry and Sharon came, but then I met them in 2010. So I guess the same time Clint was wrapping up, I met them through my work, starting at the Hideaway, doing marriage intensives and.

Oh, yeah.

You know, so I've been pounding away at this for 15 years, too, but there's been many years away in the desert where if you're not around Community and especially people who speak the same language who are wanting to grow, you can get lost. You know, you can kind of find yourself far off, kind of off the, off the road a bit. And so I think this is why I love having conversations with people. It's just a reminder of, like, oh, yeah. I believe in doing the work, but I really need to do the work.

Same. Yeah. We were talking about that before. Like, I, I do the four steps a lot in my head and have over the last 10 years, but, you know, even getting reconnected the last three or four years and just practicing them more in my life and with my kids, and my kids have really helped me to, you know, it's like, well, I don't want to mess them up, so I'm actually gonna have to practice. And so, yeah, it's. It's been really good. And yeah, speaking of community, I mean, going and going to the intensive this week and doing the anxiety intensive and having Lance and the other therapists like help me name that feeling that I couldn't name, that I couldn't come up with is what I do for people every week. But I don't ever have it done for me, you know? And so, so beautiful. I mean, it was such a breakthrough. In two parts, one, it was just very healing for me, but then two, it reminded me why people change in my practice, like why the people that I see grow and it's like I knew it, but my own insecurities kind of stays in the way. And this weekend was a reminder of like, oh, okay, this is what it feels like to have somebody empower you to speak your truth and not your truth and like the generic, everybody's got a truth, but the, you know, the, you're loved, you're valued, God has made you for a purpose and you were beautifully and wonderfully made. and then actually do that, participate in that with some action. So I had to stand up on a table and say that it was okay for me to take up space, which I hated, but it was very good for me.

Dang, I'm bummed I missed that.

So yeah, Clint is a big man too. Like he is, he like when you talk, when you use the word man, he is not only does he have the manly voice, but he is a man. so when he was on top of that table, it was, it was pretty impressive. And I am glad. I am glad that you take up space. I I I'm glad. I'm glad that you do that because you make the world a better place, man.

Yeah, I appreciate it, man. It was good. It was good. Breakthrough for me. And I've been practicing all week, so.

This came up in our conversation, I think, with Michael Pacheco and others. It's this idea, again, of. It's easy, especially in Christian circles, to say, well, yeah, here's my truth. I know that I'm loved or I'm this and that, but it's not embodied. It's not, it's not a posture. It's not, as Terri says, you're not, you're not positioning yourself and taking a stance in, in that place. It's not, you know, it, as what, what, Lance, what'd you say last week? It's kind of like sometimes in psycho-education model, we walk through the steps and we're just like, yeah, this is my truth.

Right.

But it's so different to like, you're talking to a place of, yeah, it's not just I believe it here, but I feel it here. And the only way to get there is repetitive, repetitive practice over and over again, even if you don't believe it, you know?

Yeah. And having someone willing to say, I don't believe you.

Yeah.

Like you have to, like this morning with the client, I'm like, I almost believe that you believe that, but I'm gonna need, like, you know, what, how, can you say that again? What would your body posture look like if you believed? Stand up, you know, like, where would you put your hands if you believe, like, you're beautifully and wonderfully made, you know, that kind of stuff that, that I think is just so fun to do. But it takes risk on both people's part.

Absolutely. Big risk.

What, you know, Clint, you do a lot of just listening to you and like, knowing some of your story, like you're interested in a lot of things, you know, from trauma work, to, you know, sexuality and intimacy issues. You know, I'm curious if there's one thing right now that, you know, kind of has a grip on you that you've been really focused on. It could be as related to, you know, the new book you have coming out to building better bridges. I'm just curious what you find yourself really excited about and passionate about at the moment.

Oh, man. I mean, honestly, just on a personal level, spiritual formation is something that I'm really enjoying. But that kind of encompasses everything. And then, so just how do I help people? And that's where I think RT comes in so beautifully with the new coaching model that's coming out. But just in general, as clinicians that are Christian, is that's what you're doing. You're, you're doing spiritual formation as a therapist. Yes, you're doing therapy. but using RT, I mean, you're helping people identify lies that Satan has spoken over them, that sin has caused in their heart and their mind and their body. And then you're empowering them by the Holy Spirit to, to stand in that truth and have faith in that truth and walk in that truth. And, like, that's discipleship. And so teaching pastors and churches and, and speaking this, getting people to speak the same language and at least my community is, I love doing that. That's, like, my favorite thing, which then led to seeing this big hole in, you know, we, I do a lot of sexual addiction work as a CSAT, but there's not an RT model really there. And so there's some, yeah, there's some, there's some, not yet. We're working on it. There's some, there's some tension in the overly validating and, and, you know, in the way in which sometimes that can happen. And so working in the CSAT world, the sex addiction world, one of the things that I'm super passionate about is helping people get to the root causes. Right. The real violations of love and trust. And so many therapists know the ACEs scores, right? Adverse childhood experiences. There's physical and emotional and sexual abuse, and then there's physical and emotional neglect, mother treated violently, drugs in the house, incarcerated relatives, divorce. Those are kind of the, like the big ones. And as I've been working in trafficking and abuse and addiction, one of the things that I've continued to hear over and over from people is my parents never talked to me about that. or when I was seven, another boy touched my private parts, or I touched another kid's private parts, or I saw pornography when I was seven or eight. I had an adult touch me. I had these things happen to me that I've never talked to anybody about. And that just repetitively happened over and over and over and over. And almost every client that I saw And then once I started asking about it as part of the assessment, it was literally like 90 something percent of people. And so I started doing some research and just with my clients and our clients, just kind of asking those questions and when I travel. So a simple thing of like, I'll be at a conference and be 400 people in the room and we'll be talking about sexuality and development. I'll say, raise your hand if your parent talked to you about masturbation. and I've never had, I've never had more than three people raise their hand in hundreds and hundreds of talks. And so I was like, man, this is crazy because that was my experience. I had never, you know, I'd experienced all of those things before 12 and never had a person talk to me until I was in therapy admitting it and then talking about it, you know? And so the idea of childhood sexual neglect was kind of the term because I was looking at the ACEs scores and there's physical and emotional neglect. But this concept of trauma being something not that just happens to you, but that you didn't get really started pouring over the Holy Spirit just started pouring it over my heart. And so I was approached, I said this on a podcast. And so I got approached by the TED people. They called me, sent me an email and said, Hey, we'd love for you to do a TED Talk on this topic. And I was like, wow, okay. So that was terrifying and like so much work. and I never want to do it again because it was just so much work. I'd rather do a podcast. I can talk all day, but memorizing nine minutes of like an exact speech to say in front of a live audience, it's going to go on YouTube forever is a lot.

And you got to say penis.

Yeah, I said penis a couple times, that's right. But I opened the TED Talk up with basically, you know, I remember a time where my mom walked into the living room and she was shaking her head. and I said, what's up? And she said, Grady, who's my oldest son, he kicked me out of the bathroom. And I said, well, why? And she said, he looked at me and said, you've got to get out. I gotta pee and you can't see my penis. And that's kind of the opening to the TED Talk. But the, the shock on people's faces when I talk about those things in church or in a small group, it's like, why is that so crazy? And it's because we've, we've just never.

Talked about it, and so.

That'S what the book kind of prompted the building better bridges. It was the idea of a bridge is the conversation you have between you and your child that can hold heavy things as they get older. And that many of us have not had those conversations with our parents and those bridges either don't exist or are made out of straw or fractured. And so when we try to put sexuality or conflict or drugs and alcohol or these heavy relational things on those bridges, they just collapse. Um, and so it's kind of a discipleship model, but also a therapeutic model of like, you've got to realize that this thing didn't start with you at six becoming a perv or becoming an addict or being angry, just like within love and trust violations, things happened or didn't happen that started to form your belief system about yourself and that caused pain that, and then you responded with in private. and you never had anybody to talk to about that because your parents already talked to you and said, whether consciously or unconsciously, we don't talk about those things. And the church by not communicating says, we don't talk about these things. We have that Gnosticism in the church where we see the body as bad and sex is bad unless you're married and you can do whatever you want to. Instead of teaching, no, your body is good. God made your body good. Your private parts, your sexuality is amazing. It's a representation of Christ in the church. It's an embodiment of love, but it's been broken and by sin and violated by these love and trust violations. And so trying to teach that, you know, that's kind of the first quarter of the book. And then I go into the, and how is that manifested in our lives and what conversation should we be having at what age and when? And then I go into now, now that you've seen all this, how can you understand where, where this, why this is a problem when it comes to social media and technology and exposure to pornography. And like so many things, I think, you know, we're treating the symptom. We're talking about a lot of things, but we're missing the root causes. That makes sense.

So good.

Makes a ton of sense. I mean, there's so much I want to say, but there's nothing really to say. I mean, it's, it's the truth, like. you know, I, I guess because of the work I do, right? I'm privy to a lot of things that have helped me do some things parenting wise that maybe I wouldn't have done normally.

Yeah, yeah.

But I'm still like pretty blown away the lack of things that we communicate to our kids about. And if we're not the ones communicating it to them, you know, somebody is.

Right.

And way early too.

Yeah, well, it's funny, we're communicating these things way early that they don't need to hear and then not talking about all the things that they're experiencing. So for example, you have, you know, almost 90 something percent of boys through puberty have a nocturnal emission or a wet dream. and a large majority of girls also can have them. But almost 100% of the people that I've interviewed and talked to, their parents did not prepare them for that. And so a normal developmental thing that's going to happen to almost everybody's body happens and you didn't know about it. You don't know what you're supposed to do about it or how you're supposed to feel about it. And so shame and surprise and fear are the first things you experience with a sexual react, you know, orgasm or reaction that's a biological response. That's insane. Yeah. You know, that. That wires immediately the love and trust violation. It's not that somebody sexually abused you, but that you're. You're a child having a normal response of developmental cue that had you known about it and had you know what it was for and had you know what to do about it. you know, would have been a totally normal, shameless thing like going to the bathroom. Yeah. But because we don't know when and how to talk about those things, because we feel ashamed about them, then we just let our kids have these things on their own and then we just, you know, same thing with peer with a, with a menstrual cycle. Lots of women, you know, have had their first period and not been prepared that it was going to happen and been at like a swim party or at a camp or. you know, they don't have a tampon. They don't have, they don't know what a pad is. They don't know what anything is. And they, again, their body is now dirty and broken and gross and, and then no one repairs that. I mean, that's the worst part about it, is that we're all going to experience trauma and neglect. But no one then immediately kind of follows that up and goes, hey, we're so sorry we forgot to tell you about that. Let's talk about that. Let's identify that. Let's, this is not, your body's great. You know, you're, you're private parts are good. You know, we take responsibility for not telling you if you feel shame, come talk to us about it. I mean, that's just a non issue.

So interesting.

Yeah.

Neglect just instantly, I was thinking about neglect, like child, child neglect. Like it creates way more, I guess, and body keeps the score. They talk about that neglect does way more damage than actual, like, physical abuse, like. to neglect somebody, there is like the brain just has so many question marks around it. So when you're talking about this idea around, you know, you're neglecting your child's sexual development, it can, it does do a lot of damage. I still remember, I can't believe we're gonna talk about this, but someone's gonna enjoy this. I remember being a kid and I had a nocturnal emission. And I was so embarrassed. I was at my grandfather's house, like sleeping in the back room. And I thought I like wet my pants and I was so, so embarrassed. I was like grabbing tissues and all these things. I didn't know what to do or what to say. And it was like never taken care of.

That's right.

It's so interesting that you talk about that. I just like, just, I could feel, I can remember the moment. That's how much, like, you know how like in trauma, like you, like remember those things, man.

So this is what happens every time I talk about this, Lance. I mean, when I'm at coffee with a pastor and they're asking me these questions, I'm thinking, okay, we're gonna go here. And almost a hundred percent of the time that light bulb comes on and somebody validates the entire idea by going, oh yeah. I mean, I've had people get up and leave coffee because they're like, oh my God, I was actually abused and I've never even thought about it. you know, and then they've called me later and gotten into therapy and gotten some help. But it's like, that's, I think, the, the problem that I'm, you know, that's, I'm trying to have us address is this kind of hidden root cause to a lot of the issues when it comes to broken sexuality in our culture. And I think restoration therapy treats that really well. If we could treat, show people, hey, you're, and I think I say this in the book, but, like, your love and trust violations and your view of yourself and your pain cycle. keeps you from being able to authentically approach your kids with your actual beliefs about sexuality because you don't even have any. Like you don't even, if I asked you what you believed, you couldn't even tell me what you believe about, you know, those things. So how can you teach your kids what your, what our family motto is, or belief system is, or culture is around these things? Your only solution is just not to talk about it.

Yeah.

Which is wild.

Oh, man.

I know.

I'm thinking about a lot of conversations in the past and conversations I still need to have, too. So, yeah, it's. It's an interesting thing. You're always confronted. This goes back to doing your own work. I find that as a therapist, I'm always confronted. as I'm working with the client, exposing my own issues or struggles or things that I've neglected in my own life or things that I've failed to communicate or do differently. It's like this mirror, you know, that that's both the beauty of being a therapist and the curse sometimes. It's like, oh man, gosh, I have the opportunity to go do something different because a client came in today and exposed me to a reality I wasn't seeing. And then dang it, I gotta go home and do this thing too now.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Or you're telling a client how to love their wife well and you're like, oh my gosh, I need to go home and apologize for whatever nonsense I was saying this morning.

That's such a helpful book, Clint, because I remember with our own kids, as we started to have those early conversations, like really early, just around body and what's appropriate touch and not touch, we had used a book that was recommended. I can't remember the name of it. That was kind of just like a. A companion guide to, like, help us have some conversations, you know, have, like, drawings in it and everything. And I remember that first conversation before my. With my daughter, my. My wife and I were in the kitchen, like, high anxiety, and we're just looking at our little daughter on the couch, like, three years old or whatever, playing, doing her thing, and my wife and I are like, in, like, Panic mode, trying to emotionally self-regulate so we can go have this conversation.

Yeah.

And what is that about? It just, I think we were both, we both come from really great families, but we were raised in a Christian environment where you just didn't talk about stuff, and we didn't have the tools ourselves, you know, to, like, do that. And so we were, took a lot of anxiety to get to a place where we could start having these own conversations with our own kids. And that's why I just, you know, when I looked at your book and I was looking at all the topics you cover, I'm like, oh, this is so good because, you know, sometimes we'll talk about, you know, sexual development, but we may not talk about masturbation.

Right.

Yeah.

Or even like a simple, I mean, I have boys. So it's like just like everything else with discipleship, you have so many opportunities to have those conversations. that if you miss them or you just skip them, they're just great opportunities to build that bridge and to build that trust and to show your kid, I'm the one who's safe. I'm the one you come to to talk to. I know what I'm doing and I'm confident in it and I'm solid in it and we, God is good and God is here and you know, because they're thinking it, you know, they're looking for that attachment, that safety, that love, that security. And when we don't talk about it, they're like, okay, well, I guess I don't deal with that, you know, like, my oldest. And it comes like, it's so funny because it's our kids, that's all they know. And we don't overly talk about it. It's not like every week we're talking about it, but we've talked about it enough to where it's like totally normal in our life to where, you know, my, I was doing something with my son the other day and he's like, he's 10. He's like, man, you know, when your penis gets hard and you like can't pee and you gotta like lean over and hurts and you're like, I'm like, what? He was just talking so normal in the kitchen, you know, he's like, I'm like, what am I gonna do here? He's like, I guess I'm gonna lean this way. And he's like, oh, you know, and I was like, yeah, bud, you know, like, and so we talked about an erection and we talked about the weight and, you know, stop, stop scratching on it more than, you know, you, you, you need to. And, you know, I give him these, like, we're not talking about masturbation yet. You know, he's not developmentally old enough for that conversation, but these little conversations, build to that to where, you know, since he was little, he knows what a direction is. He knows his penis fills up with blood and then he knows to leave it alone and just use it for your penis is for teaching, you know, your, your penis is for peeing. That's the normal conversation over time. You're not talking to your three-year-old about masturbation. You're not explaining all of those things. I I say in the book, you need to be about three months unless anything, you know, crazy happens, but you need to be about three months. to six months ahead of the developmental stage. You need to be having this conversation, say, this is going to come up, this is going to happen, and this is good, and your body is good, and you can come talk to us about it when it happens. It happened to me, it happens to everybody. If anybody tries to talk to you about it that's not us, come talk to us. We're the truth. We're going to give you the answer. We're going to answer your questions. We're not going to be weird. those are the things that I think if we start to implement, then you have kids who are not ashamed, who are not looking weirdly, who feel perfectly confident, confident, and then haven't, you know, split their sexuality and who they are, are not these completely separate tanks in which they live in. Yeah.

Which is really important things, too. Like, you know, I think a lot of times therapists they're like, why would I go speak to people? You know, I think this is like, to build awareness around, like, what's better ways and better habits. I think that's one of the things that really, I mean, one of the many things I really appreciate you about you is that, you know, by putting yourself out there, being willing to get on a stage and talk about these things, to work with groups or, and the like, what you're doing is you're spreading. good information. And as people become more aware, we actually can really become, you know, have better conversations. And we don't have to continue the pattern like that. That generational, like, trauma that has. Has gone from generation to generation. We can actually stop it.

Yeah, absolutely. That's. That's my whole goal is, like, we laughed about this at the conference, though, Lance. I was like, I don't want to be the guy who's known for talking about, you know, sex things, you know? but that's just what it is.

And.

I didn't want to look up when my kids are 18 and say, yeah, I knew about this like 10 years ago, but I was too scared or insecure to like have the conversations. I want to be able to look up on their 18 and say, look, I've been doing everything I can to help pattern a world that you're entering into that's a little better. You know, that our friends and our peers and our church and our, are the people I at least know are not unaware. If they choose to do whatever they want to, that's on them. But how can I support them and walk alongside them in creating a culture that's better? Because the parallel culture, right, as we enter into AI and as we enter into, you know, this kind of just open sexuality of everybody can do whatever they want to and be however they want to and find their truth, and it's all healthy and all good, and there's nothing wrong with anything like that's killing us. and yet the alternative is not talking about it or shaming everybody about it, and that's killing us. And so it's like, man, you know, the gospel is the answer to both of those Solutions. And I think, again, not to just overly RT it, but it's like, that's what I think RT brings. It brings the centrality, this normalizing, this balance of self-responsibility the self-regulation to where it doesn't matter if it's sex or drugs or rock and roll, right? We can talk about all those things in a healthy way because we know what's true and what God has said is true about us and how he's created us and wired us to be. And that is safe for people.

So true. By the way, when it comes to rock and roll, I learned this last weekend that Clint is quite the rocker. I mean, we had this at the Intensive. This is one of the cool things about Intensives. In trainings, you have these weird moments where you get to just chill and be normal human beings, so you're not sitting at your house watching the boob tube and being stupid, but you're actually engaged in a round and we had a really good fun guitar karaoke with Justin Little, who knows every song by year.

That was wild, man. That was so much fun. It couldn't have been more timely. yeah.

What was your favorite song?

You know, I, it's funny because Megan sent the, the list out or whatever of all the songs we sang, but I'd already started making the list in my iTunes. I mean, in my Apple Music, because I was like, oh, I love Desperado. I love these songs so much. And I don't think I, I don't know if I had a favorite. I just think I, I enjoy that so much, just people singing and having fun. I really enjoyed watching everybody's light up when their song that they wanted to come on was. And I enjoyed watching you just be as goofy as you could be next to Justin making faces and really getting into the songs. And that was really. That was fun, man. Such a great time.

That was such a blast. There's just one moment.

I.

The moment that's sealed in my mind is Sharon Hargrave, and she loves Ed Sheeran.

Oh, yeah.

And what. What's the song that. I don't know. Is it perfect or is it the. The way.

Whatever.

It's like this one song that they were just. They. They both got up and they started, like, slow dancing together. I was like, oh, yeah, what's this?

I think it's the one that's, like, dancing in the dark playing my favorite song.

Yeah.

Is that it?

Yeah.

Perfect. I think that's it. I think that's it.

Rhett, do you want to sing it for us?

I don't actually, I don't, I barely know it. I was thinking Lanta's favorite song is Take Me Out to the Ball Game because whenever I see his Instagram stories, with little Andrew.

It's always Andrew.

He does post, he's at the, watching the Padres, seventh inning stretch, singing.

Crucial.

Yeah.

It's important for people to hear how bad my voice is.

Great man. Nobody has a bad voice when they're being authentic.

Amen. It's a beautiful noise.

Hey, I, so I have a question just thinking about this conversation. Cause you know, one of the challenges, and I like the three to six month window kind of development, but one thing I've noticed as my kids, I have a seven, almost 18 year old daughter, almost 15 year old son, Sometimes I might feel a tendency to have the conversation right now or to have like a big conversation. I gotta get it all in right now because I'm gonna miss that window. And so I find myself having to like, emotionally regulate myself enough to look for the right moments to talk. But I guess the beauty of a long bridge over time is that you don't feel the pressure to have to have all the conversations right now, right? And so I'm curious if you have any advice for parents in just checking their own emotional self-regulation of, and let's just say a parent has been doing a good job of having conversations over time and just trying to pay attention of like not piling it on too much because maybe they have some anxiety of like, I gotta get this in right now. And like, if you notice in your own coaching with parents, how to and when to look for opportunities, you know, with your kids.

Yeah, I think one, it does take community. And it, I mean, obviously we're therapists and counselors and pastors, but you have to have those people. So I say run it by somebody first, you know, unless it's like a life or death situation, it could wait a day or two hours. And so call someone and say, hey, I know myself. Okay, so you got to know yourself.

Right?

You have to know whether this, you're making this about you or fear or anxiety or whatever you're making it about. And so you have to, you have to say, okay, what am I feeling? You know, I mean, do the four steps, right? Like, what do I normally do when I do this? What's the truth? And then what am I going to do differently? In my book, I talk about talking to the right brain. and so I, I say, you know, the, so I kind of follow up the four steps with, okay, now you've done that, you're regulated. So now you're connected. Like, you are fully connected that God is good, he loves you, and you're safe in his care. And so I say that, you know, if a kid is upset or emotional or having some kind of, like, maybe they've seen porn or maybe they're dysregulated or maybe they're upset in order to co-regulate right, you have to be connected, and so. the first thing you have to do is you have to show sympathy.

Right?

So the first thing is connection. The second thing is sympathy. You walk in and you go, hey, seems like a really hard situation or a really hard conversation for us. Or, you know, I, I know you saw something that you didn't like or you didn't want to look at, or, hey, I know you stayed out too late last night and, you know, that's, that's going to be difficult. Whatever the thing is. Three is, then you show empathy. Then you say, and I know what that's like. I know what it's like to fail. I know what it's like to look at something I shouldn't have. I know what it's like to be terrified of these things. And you, you show some empathy with them and show them that you're on the same page and you're for them. Step four is that then we offer support. We say, hey, what would you like in this situation? Do you want to have more conversation? Would you like to write it down? Would you like me to write it down for you? And I'll leave it here. Hey, I can, I can video, I can audio record this. this voice. A lot of kids with autism or sensory issues, like they can't take in that much information. So you audio record the conversation and you leave it for them and they can listen to it as they want to. And then when they're done and they feel like they understand or they have some questions, they can come to you and ask those questions. You ask them, what do you want? What do you need? What's your personality and temperament? Knowing you as my kid, I don't want to sit here looking eye to eye and try to have an hour and a half conversation. Do you want to take a drive? like, and we'll just talk and you can sit in the back and I can ask you questions. You wanna throw the football or the baseball? Do you wanna go hike or swim? Like what, what do you wanna cook together tonight? And we'll talk over dinner. And then five, so that's the, that's talking to the right brain. When we, when we're connected and we're empathetic and sympathetic and we show them we're there for them, then their right brain, right? It goes, it calms down. They, their left brain starts to come online so they can actually learn. and this is one of the problems we have is no one, we do this in, and taking the deep breaths right in the, we're trying to get them to regulate the steps help you to talk to the right brain to get your nervous system calm so you can get to the truth. If you're not calm and you're not regulated, you cannot get your left brain online. So you can't learn anything. And I think many parents, they, they start with step five, which is speak truth and teach. as number one because we're not regulated, we're not connected, we've not thought about them, we've not empathized with them or sympathized or figured out what they need. We just go in going, hey, I know your boyfriend broke up with you, but you do realize that like you're going to have other boyfriends, right? And they're just like, you know, they don't care about that because their right brain is like so overstimulated and they're so emotional, you know? And so, and then lastly, it's make a plan. And so what are we going to do about this? How are we going to follow this conversation up? Are we going to have this conversation next week? Am I going to check your computer tomorrow? Are you going to talk to your friend about whatever the thing is? Does that make sense?

So good.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

Love that.

That reminds me of one of my hard breakups I had in high school. I remember my dad, he came in the room, with me and he did all those things. I still remember, like he grabbed his old yearbook. I don't know if it's probably not the best idea, but like, he was like, see this girl I dated her, she broke up with me. See this girl I dated her, she broke up with me. And it was like that empathy, like really meant something to me. I'm like, oh, like things are, like things break, things don't work, relationships don't pan out. And, you know, I think it gave me this window into, like, it made me really interested in my dad and gave me permission to kind of go through what I was going through. So I appreciate that. And I probably was way more able to get over my poor, this old early breakups. They're so hard.

Yep.

That's right, man. I mean, I think, again, you know, our instinct when we're not regulated is to, is to kind of, we, not everybody, but a lot of times we just want to get to the facts. So this is the same thing in marriage, right? So your, your wife's like, you know, when you don't do the dishes, you know, or when you forgot to do that, like, I just feel like you don't respect me. You don't love me. Our instinct is to be like, how could you say that? Like, look at these other 400 things that I've done that proved, you know, right? Like, we just get into logic. and they never stop and go, oh, you know what? You're right. You did do a hundred other things. So this moment right now doesn't matter because of that. That never happens. And we see that in politics, we see that in sports, we see that in all kinds of ways.

It could go so many different directions. Is that those steps you just mentioned are those laid out in the book too?

I break down each one and give examples. Yeah, I think the chapter right before that I end with the love and trust and what Terri and Sharon have come up with and their model. And then I think I enter into the right brain, like supposing that like you would have done all the self-regulating work, you know, because it doesn't necessarily, I mean it does work with couples, but you know, our job is not to co-regulate each other in the way that it is with kids. so I feel like the four steps are, you know, they're, they're brilliant, you know, above everything. But where I feel like the six, the steps that I was suggesting is one, they're not all at once. The four steps are all at once. Right. You're doing those all at once. You may have to just do the four steps 15 times, be connected and show some empathy and empathy, and you don't get to teach until two days later.

Right.

You might not have a teaching conversation until a week later. Your kid might not be regulated or it might not be a good space, you might need to just keep showing kindness and love for a couple days until they're regulated enough to come back in and go, okay, hey, I'm sorry I yell at you. I'm sorry I told you you didn't love me. I'm sorry you, you know, I told you that I felt embarrassed. What did you want to tell me? You know, and then you can teach. But if, if somebody's not regulated and they're in their right brain, they literally just can't learn scientifically. so I tell people, when you're in an argument, imagine there's, like, a big arrow, like, that's outside of, like, a bar, you know, that's lit up. That's just pointing to the right brain and reminding you, like, talk to me. Yeah, talk to me. Like, do not try to be logical and talk to my left brain. I'm not on. I'm turned off. I'm dark. Show me empathy.

Show me sympathy. Help me calm down, and then i'll be able to listen to you. Nice. Well, clint, I mean, this is so exciting. We I think I just, I love you and I love that you, you have, you're offering such great things to the world by what you're doing. You know, one of the things we really do love, I mean, I feel like you already gave us a ton of things to really encourage in our own lives and with our clients. But, you know, I was thinking, you know, there's a few options for us right now. I want, like, when it comes to, like, we have a lot of new therapists that listen to this. podcast. I guess it's required for some classes. Sorry.

That's awesome.

Required class.

But.

Maybe you could tell us, like, what are some of your favorite interventions you're using now? Or I think this other thing for.

You.

About how, how do you like to integrate your faith into therapy? Because I feel like when you're in school, it's like you're, it's like forbidden fruit. Like you're not allowed to do that. So I want to give you either option because I think both would be really helpful for people that are listening. Yeah. And yeah, so whatever you feel led.

Yeah, I'll do it through both. So I'll like give how I do it through an example of working with somebody.

Okay.

So, you know, and with RT, one of the things I love is, I mean, obviously showing the pain and peace cycle. so you. You write, you know, I'm going to use John, which is just a generic name. John feels unloved and unworthy. John copes by withdrawing, hiding, shaming itself. And so I had a client recently, so I love that. I had a client recently who, you know, they. They understood that part. So we went back into the memory. When was the first time that you have ever felt that way?

Right.

This is kind of recall. And him and his wife are sitting on the couch and he said, I remember, you know, I was 10 or 11. My stepdad was doing something and I just knew I was not safe with him. I knew I couldn't go to him. And I said, well, I find that interesting because, you know, you think that's going to be the core memory, but the reality is, is like, that's an automatic response at that point. So he already feels unsafe and unloved by a stepdad. So what happened, you know, so I asked him that. so he said, oh, well, you know, my dad used to spank all of us, you know? And I remember me and my brothers getting laid down on the. On the bed. And I said, well, how old? And he kind of looked down. He was like, like three and a half, probably. And I just sat back. I was like, whoa, you know, like three and a half. I was like, do you know any three and a half year olds? He's like, yeah, I have grandkids, you know? I'm like, okay, I want you to imagine for a second that. that you're laying, you know, that three and a half year old is you, and you're laying over that bed. And I stood up, and I I said, I got a belt, and I'm about to spank this little boy.

And.

And he, like, looked at me, and I was like, well, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna say? And he kind of stood up, and he's like, I have no clue. And I was like, well, okay, well, then I'm gonna spank him. Like, you know, I'm gonna spank this little kid, and he's like, I don't know what to say. Like, I guess I physically stop you. I was like, well, that's an option. I was like, but what would you tell this dad? What would you tell this little boy? And so he told the dad, like, that's not necessary. You need to teach him. I said, but tell him, you know? So he starts telling him and, you know, the light bulb went on. And I said, well, what would you.

Tell this little boy?

And I said, what would you do? And he was like, well, I'd get him off the bed. And I said, okay, get him off the bed. So he kind of pretended to get him off the bed. And then I knelt down on the floor. and he sat down on the couch, and I said, I'm gonna try to stay without crying. He said, I said, I'm here. Like. And I kind of put my head down, and I was, like, scared. And I said, you know, he was like, I'm gonna just tell him. I was like, so you would just talk to him? And he was like, well, no, I'd probably grab him. And I was like, okay. So he grabs me and pull. And his wife's just boohooing, you know, next to him. He pulls me in a hug, and I'm on my knees, and he's patting me and rubbing my back and very much like me and Justin at the retreat.

Yeah.

And and he's just like, it's okay. You know, he goes through this whole thing, and then he gets it, you know, and he's like, oh, that's what I need to be telling myself. So then I went and sat back down. So he went through the, you know, writing this truth down, and really, he embodied it and believed it. But the theological part was I said, you know, Jesus says that if we're not like the little kids and we won't inherit the kingdom of God, and I said, what is it about little kids, you know, that. That Jesus wants us to be like? And he said, well, I, you know, it's that we trust God, and we know that we can go to him and we can be safe with him. And I was like, yeah, you didn't.

Have that, you know?

And you. You see God as what? And he was like, yeah, I feel like God's gonna spank me if I do the wrong things. And I was like, is that true? And he's like, absolutely not. And so I had to, you know, work through that. And so then we put up the truth. And then, you know, what's the healthy coping? And then how do people respond? And I drew a line and I said, here's the trick. Up here, the negative coping, you know, we're feeling something negative, and then we're coping to get a response. We're trying to avoid something or, you know, but we're not getting what we want. But as Christians, we can feel loved, and then we can love others, and.

We might get crucified.

So we're not, we're not. walking in our truth and doing the healthy thing so that we get something or so that someone else changes. We're doing it because we believe it. And sometimes, lots of times when people in our life, it will turn for the good. But the real key is that you're doing it because you believe it and it's the only way that you know to be because Christ is the way and the truth and the life. And so any other option is going to lead to what you don't want. And so that's one of the interventions I really like, you know, that helps a lot, you know, on a different level with different people.

Such a difference from being on your, lying on your back, getting ready to get spanking, to turning into, say, bring the little children to me, that invitation versus that, you know, beat down that they're waiting to receive. yeah, man. That's such a beautiful juxtaposition.

Yeah, but it took risk, you know? Like, I didn't even know what I was doing when I started. But just imagining it. Like, I was just like, once we got to the whole, like, he got him off the bed, i'm like, oh, gosh, what do I do? And i'm like, I guess I gotta be him. So I just knelt down in front of him, and he's a big old tattooed up dude. Like, he. Yeah, like, he's not, you know, not comfortable with that, and, you know, you know. and it's just like the risk there and you just got to trust, that's what I tell new therapists, you just got to do stuff sometimes and just trust where it goes. Let the Holy Spirit guide it and your, you know, your reps guide it.

Well, and that's just, again, not to belabor the point, but if we're not part of an ongoing practicing community of clinicians trying to do the work and specifically from this RT model, It's just really easy to be in your office alone day after day and kind of atrophy maybe of getting up or just get, you know, we're tired. It's been long, long seasons or fears, like fear of like stepping up and not knowing what's going to happen next. And so I think what I enjoy is like whether it was at the summit in February or what you all did this last weekend. you know, like, just watching people work can literally inspire me for months at a time.

100. 100.

Even having a conversation with you guys. I mean, there's a good chance in my sessions that await the day, I'll try something different.

You know.

I think that's. I don't know. That's just, again, for those who listen who are part of the. Or who aren't a part of the community, you know, it's really important to. to find some people. Even if you're in Shreveport or Dallas like me, we don't have an RT clinic like Lance in San Diego. We gotta we gotta gotta find our people.

Yeah, absolutely.

Now, Clint has how many people?

Yeah, he's got a clinic.

There's 20 something, I think. I haven't added them up in a while.

We got to train them all up, though. I feel like we got to get.

Oh, yeah, there. I think Megan's going to come out. in July or August and do for my biblical counselors a coaching training. And then I'm gonna try to get a online mod one just for our. I mean, we have enough to do just a training if somebody will. If I can get somebody to set it up for us so that I can get everybody. What's it called? Not module one, but training.

Level one.

Level one. Yeah. So I'd love to, by the end of the year, get everybody level one trained, and then we could be like an RT Center. I mean, everybody knows it for me talking ad nauseam about it, but I don't make people practice it. I haven't, you know, I'm stepping into that new space where I'm like, okay, this is something like you guys are new, you know, I have some clinicians who have been around a really long time. I find that like people who do good therapy kind of naturally do RT bent like stuff anyway. And so when you teach them, it's like just giving them a structure to put, they go, oh my gosh, this is what I do. I just didn't really know why this feels so good, you know? But like you, Rhett, like I can find myself, if I'm not sticking to what I know is true, you know, you let your pain cycle come up and you go, oh man, I'll just listen to them today and validate and, you know, sit for 50 minutes. And it's not unhelpful. Yeah. But there's these moments where like, it takes energy to get up, it takes risk, it takes like embarrassment, it takes like all of those things. Yeah. And, and not that that's not okay. I mean, it's okay to sit with people. You don't have to make them do something every session.

And there's, there's the beautiful part about therapy I like, too, in that it's an art. And so each client is different and presents different opportunities, and you, you kind of have to, like, discern what does this client need today and how do I need to show up versus just kind of the science model where you just kind of always put them through this conveyor belt.

Right, right. It's perfect.

Yeah.

I was just gonna say, yeah, you also don't want to make RT become this thing that you're forcing everybody into. So yeah, being gentle or taking it over the course of five or six sessions or six months if you have to, I mean, some people are so dysregulated, which is why I love the stop-turn-slow stuff that we're coming up with, is that that's gonna be super helpful with anxiety or dysregulated to kind of give them an off-ramp for a while to go back to the four steps.

Oh, man, dude, this has been so fun connecting with everybody today. I wish we had a little bit more time.

I know you guys gotta go. I gotta go take care of my wife. She's. She's home sick, so they were supposed to go out of town, and then she woke up last night not feeling well, so, yeah, I can pray for that. Yeah.

And we'll have more conversations. You know, we're just getting the ball rolling, and I think there's a lot of, like, Synergy in the community coming off the summit and just kind of seeing what the work that people are doing and. It's just cool to know like, you got Justin and Jason up in the Pacific Northwest doing work and people out in Tennessee and Nicole up in Connecticut and you in Shreveport and San Diego. It's cool to just, you know, I'm looking forward to this next year of, you know, getting together with people, whether it's at a summit or just breaking bread because you're in Dallas for some reason. you know, I think it'll be really cool. We'll put all the notes in the, in the, in the, in the show notes and get that book linked up, you know, for sure. Clint, if people want to check out, I mean, I know you have a website. Is that, like, the best place for people just to go if they want to find resources, information about you and find the TED Talk and everything else?

Yeah.

I mean, they can follow us on Instagram or Facebook as well. Yeah, it's just @ClintDavisCounseling and yeah, they go type that into YouTube and stuff will come up. But yeah, I can send you all the links for all that stuff.

Thanks.

Cool.

All right. Well, hey man, it's good connecting with everybody today.

Good times.

We'll chat later.

Have a good day.

All right. See ya.