https://www.listennotes.com/e/ccdcd140cf21472aafa4caea2a270723

Lance, what's up?

Rhett, oh my goodness. It's been like forever, bro. How are you?

It's been a lot of time together these days.

I know. I'm very thankful for this budding friendship that everybody gets to witness.

Yeah, it's really, yeah. It goes way back, but we won't get into that today.

Right.

Hey, this is the RT dialogue podcast, which We started in really hopes to connect the RT community to create conversation around different things, to hear what everybody's doing, and just see where this goes. And so today we have a special guest on that Lance, I'm going to let you introduce since you two just spent some time together at a training.

So this guy's a total gem. His name is Justin Little. He's coming to us from the Sisters, Oregon, where he runs his own practice of about 5,000 therapists, I believe.

Yeah, it's about 7,500.

Oh, sorry.

Bigger than the town.

Somewhere in there, somewhere in there. Yeah, twice as big as the population of the town we're in. Yes.

But yeah, we love Justin. We literally were just together about a couple of weeks ago in Atlanta. or Rome, Georgia. And Justin brought, like, he brought it. I just want to say this guy's got therapeutic chops that are only bested by his music skill level flow. This guy, you can say, Hey, do you know this song? And he'll go,. and he'll be like, sit there, he'll kind of fiddle around on the guitar a little bit, and then all of a sudden we're all singing and around whatever song it was. I think the best part was when you sung a song, Ed Sheeran's song for the Hargraves amongst others. But yeah, welcome Justin.

Thank you. Thanks guys. Yeah, we , Lance and I are coming, well, I don't know where you're at Lance, but I'm like still coming down the mountain top, I guess from that experience. Um, yeah, it was really lovely to, to be at that turning from anxiety training and to, I got to be in Lance's group. So I, I could say many of the same things about you, just, yeah, bringing, bringing those skills and, you know, helping us work through stuff. And it's like you, It's like you're the therapist one moment and you're role playing and helping somebody else work through something and they're really struggling through it and you're like, you got this. And then, and then now you're the client, right? And now you're the one having to work through it. And I remember that moment in the parking lot where I like had to take a step forward in my like stop, turn slow and my body just like didn't want to do it. Like I froze and like my foot was like hanging in the air. And I think you were like right here. You know, so I took a step and then it was like, okay, I could do this, you know, I can, I can get out of fight or flight right now. That's what I can do. So yeah, thank you. Thanks guys for having me on and yeah.

Yeah.

And you're making- I'm excited to connect.

You're making another big step today, man.

Yeah.

Yeah. Very excited to have you on today and we'll probably get to talk about a lot of fun topics. I know we're gonna try and hit forgiveness therapy in the wild. I know Rhett's gonna have some good musings for us today. I can see it in his eyes.

I just really, I would talk to you guys like four hours. I don't know if anybody would tune in.

I know.

You know what I'm saying?

It's so niche.

We'd be in deep in the weeds.

Yeah.

I'm just jealous he lives in Oregon, honestly.

Yeah.

You should be. It's beautiful here. It's, it's, yeah, lots to be jealous of.

I have a daughter who will be going up to Gonzaga in the fall, so I don't know how- oh, nice. Spokane to needles is, but maybe I will make my way out there.

Yeah, to, from Spokane to sisters where I live. So sisters is, and I can see it out the window here, we have the three sisters mountains right in the middle of Oregon, the Cascade range. And so that's why our little town is named what it is. And from Spokane, we used to live in Vancouver and it was like five or six hours, I think, to Spokane from there. So it's probably a good eight or nine hours, I'm guessing.

Well, I'll be there at some point.

Yeah. Yeah.

But Spokane's beautiful.

My view out the window, but it's a, it's a water tower and a flat golf course, so.

Yeah.

I, I love, I, I did this one epic trick to Bend, where buddy of mine, he's just this crazy, like, you know, outdoorsman. And we got to go, we did like Mount Thielsen, we did Smith Rock, we jumped off a wall, we went golfing, we like floated the, what's the river there?

Des Chutes.

Des Chutes.

Which is French for the Chutes. Pretty sure. Wow.

Yeah.

So a little local knowledge there for anyone who is curious about the meeting.

That's awesome.

So Justin, tell us a little bit about, like, you know, we always like to hear from everybody, like, how did you get to RT? Like, what's that journey like for you?

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, yeah, I was reflecting on that this morning a little bit in anticipation of figuring out how to tell my story and how Sharon's coaching in my mind, which is like, you know, five to seven minutes, practice honing your story, because as you two know, that's a part of the model in turning from anxiety. But yeah, so I was living in Monrovia and was a part of a little church there called Mountainside Communion. and Megan and Daniel Lundgren were a part of our community. And I knew them for a very long time in that context since I started going to that church in like 2006. And they were already there, I believe, at that point.

So, yeah.

And I, I mean, I showed up to that church on the first birthday of this little Nazarene church plant smack dab between Pasadena and Azusa. And it just turned out that there were several folks from Fuller. Warren Brown was a part of our community and his wife, Jan, and so. I was over at their house regularly for things and was there the night Jan passed holding Vigil out front on their lawn. And so we were very close-knit community. And so at some point, Megan and Daniel took me out to dinner and we're like, you should really think about the MFT program at Fuller. We think you'd like it. They'd both done it previously and they'd done it before. the Hargraves had come to Fuller. So Rhett, they may have been there when you were there doing your MFT. Did you do your MFT in Pasadena?

Yeah, 2005 to 2007.

Okay.

My practicum was out in West Covina. So, you know, obviously past Monrovia and area.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Small world.

Yeah.

So they encouraged me to go and. And I. ended up, yeah, looking into it. And I think Megan was like, and, you know, there's Terry and Sharon Hargrave are there and we really, I really think you should go just consider this. I was, it was my wandering in the wilderness phase of my own journey where I was like working at coffee shops and teaching music lessons and running a worship, you know, music ministry at the church just like on a volunteer basis and just trying to figure things out. And so I had already been to Fuller, and realized once I'd gotten into therapy the first time around when I was at Fuller, that I really was a lot. Now I would say I was in my pain cycle, right? Like I was in this place of really feeling like I had to be a missionary. I'd been to Romania twice. I was going to go back to Romania. I'd worked in downtown LA for a year in Skid Row prior to this. Like, just really. I mean, I had lots of really amazing experiences, but. was very much driven by a sense of feeling inadequate. And so I was, a lot of that was me trying to prove myself, I think, looking back on it. There's a lot of really amazing things about that time in my life, too. But once I got into therapy the first time at FPFS, which is Fuller Psychological and Family Services, kind of realized that, like, this person wasn't doing RT. This was in, like, 2008. But it just helped me realize I need to I need to step back and rest and reconsider what I'm gonna do with my life because this is burning me out. So flash forward to 2011, I enrolled in the MFT program and got into therapy with William Whitney at La Vie, like three weeks before I started. And so I think within a couple of weeks of me starting the MFT, program in 2011, William did a re-parenting intervention with me and I encountered my eight-year-old self in an empty chair in one of those tiny little offices at La Vie Counseling. And it just changed everything. It completely changed everything for me. And I started taking that little guy with me to campus, driving around with him. I just would picture my eight-year-old self kind of going with me everywhere. Little Justin, little Justin. And right around that time, I met Terry because he was faculty and I kind of started piecing together that that's what William was doing. He was doing restoration. And I immediately was like, whatever I can do to get trained in this, I mean, this is exactly what I want to do now. A bunch of things just lit up for me and I realized that's that's what I wanted to do with my life. So, you know, pursued it as much as I could. Got into the live mode, training at Lake Avenue with Terry that next year. So that was 2012. Um, so my co-therapist and I, Katina, trained with Terry 2012 to 2013.

Were you in the second group then?

I think so, yeah. I think so.

You're just below us.

Yeah.

Just a little.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, that was it. I met my wife during my time in grad school. She was going to school at APU, doing a master's program there in clinical psych with MFT emphasis. And we ended up getting married right before I graduated and then started our family. We were in Monrovia and realized, and I was working for Megan actually, I went back and ended up working at Megan's practice for a bit at Relationships for Better in Monrovia for just a little while, but it was very difficult to build a caseload. We were feeling the squeeze of living in Southern California financially, and so we ended up actually using, the other thing I should say too is that Kari and I then got to go through Sharon's marriage strong course together at their home. I think the next year after I graduated, we were able to do that. So we learned our pain and peace cycle together as a couple and we got to go out to Pepperdine and do one of those trainings together with Sharon. And it was really meaningful and we continually say that this is why we're still married. The four steps and the problem solving framework, those two things from Relate Strong have just continued to be something we go back to. So we use the problem solving framework around the problem of living in Los Angeles and not being able to afford it anymore. I couldn't find a job, like a therapist. Southern California is like the mecca for MFT. And so we ended up moving out of state and went to Vancouver, Washington, where I started in a little community mental health nonprofit as a child and family therapist. associate unlicensed and was thrilled to be working full time doing therapy, you know, because I'd worked in like the admissions office after I graduated. I worked, I kept teaching music. I was trying to build a caseload down there in LA and it was just really difficult. So, yeah. And then I was, you know, practicing restoration with like everybody I could and nobody knew what I was talking about. Like all of my co-workers, supervisors, every, you know, the Vancouver Washington, like, Yeah, nobody knew what restoration was at all. And that was starting in like 2015, I want to say. So, yeah, I guess that answered your question, Rhett, and I'm getting a little further down the road. But that's really what brought me to it in the first place, was just a lot of things coming together right at the same time.

Yeah, I wasn't timing you this time, by the way, Justin.

Oh, okay. Well, that's. And that's different than, I guess, the story I would share in turning from anxiety, which has a lot more to do with my pain cycle and peace cycle and everything.

Yeah.

But I think it's cool now to hear people's stories, because no, most people don't have. There's not some linear route. You're like, this is what I'm gonna.

Do with my life.

Or even if you think that's what you're gonna do. I was talking to a person the other day who, you know, they're younger and they want to be a therapist, and there's all this pressure to know right now at 22 how it's all going to unfold. And I'm like, I'm 50 and I still don't know how everything is unfolding. So like to hear all the little pieces of all the connections you had and just, it sounds like you were pursuing your curiosity around a lot of things as you did your own work. And it's cool where that led you.

Yeah, I'm so grateful for where it led me because, I mean, I just, sometimes I think about like alternate reality. Like what if I had never, you know, had that experience with William or Bennett Fuller. I mean, sir, I'd be living a really great life, but it just totally altered things for me.

And.

Yeah, how that played out and then meeting Kari and eventually, you know, getting married and having, you know, having kids together and moving together and like building this life together outside of Southern California. I mean, we eventually landed here in Sisters, which is where I grew up. So I ended up graduating high school down the street and then went to LA for college and stayed there and went to Fuller and everything. So it's been a really sweet homecoming for me, but Kari's on this adventure because she grew up in Southern California. So this is all new to her. But yeah, none of that would have, I mean, it just launched launched me on a totally different trajectory where I was able to stop performing so much and rest and deepen into my own work and realize that I have something to offer and give just out of who I am, not just what I can do, which completely changed how I would do therapy in the years to come and how I feel way more settled and like at peace now when I'm working with clients because I'm like, I don't have to fix this. This isn't my job to fix it. Like I just, I keep reminding myself of those, you know, it's like I'm still working out what I learned during that time of my life, you know, as I'm sure you two can relate to or you have those moments that you start.

I don't know what it means to perform at all. I'm just kidding.

Yeah, I mean, I know you have a passion for it. You know what's crazy?

What's crazy for me is like, I once I learned restoration therapy, this is my anti plug for restoration therapy, is I started using my four steps regularly in my life and it was like within like 12 months I had gained 15 pounds. because I carried so much anxiety in my body all the time.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I was finally able to relax. So I may know a little something about anxiety and performing.

Yeah.

Gosh.

Yeah.

And it's not lost on me, too. Like, you just. And if your people are watching on video, there's a guitar behind you. Like, talk about, like, performing.

Yeah.

This all the different. You have a guitar behind you. I have not here, but all, I mean, all the ways that I have performed in my life, you know, out of my, out of my pain. And it's still a struggle in therapy. You know, I'm pretty aware of it at times where I'm having a conversation in my head where I can see myself performing in therapy and feeling the pressure to fix it for people. And that's, that is tough, man. I'm kind of curious. like that experience for you of like settling into your own like therapeutic, therapeutic work and noticing, I don't have to like fix this. Like what's that like for you?

Yeah, I mean, I think, well, so I remember initially the moment I think that it happened was at Lake Avenue when there was this shift where I remember just being so anxious. You know, because and this is where I start answering that question because this is when I started doing therapy, right? Like first three months of like live mode with Terry, I was like, there were nights where I'd just be crying like on the couch in my little fuller apartment before I would go because I was so nervous and anxious about like, I just know I do not know what I'm doing at all. Like, like I just felt so lost of like reading the book like three times and I'm like, but what do I do? What do I do?

Right?

And I learned to rely on Katina and we became a really good team. But like at first, I was just so nervous. And of course, you know, here's Terry Hargrave, like, I think, you know, Lance, you mentioned this in the first episode. He's like, he walks in like a wizard, you know? It's like, that's how I've been describing him for years. I'm like, and then Dumbledore enters the room and people just start crying. Like, he doesn't have to, he just looks at you and you start crying. So, So I was just, the first few months, I was so, yeah, like just terrified. And even like we were just working through this a couple of weeks in Georgia. I think I shared this with the team. Like what Terry represents to me is, you know, this sort of like father, older man, mentor, wise, you know, person. But, you know, and things are so different with my dad now. and this is, I'm not saying any of this to, you know, put him in any less of a place than me at all, but, you know, growing up, he had undiagnosed PTSD from the Vietnam War. So it was very loving, very affectionate. Like he's the guy who will get down on the floor and play with kids, but he also had undiagnosed PTSD from the Vietnam War. And like, it just so he would get really, really explosive. in his anger at times, you know, and it would feel like it was coming out of nowhere. It was just hard to predict. It was just very chaotic, right? So here I am like feeling that same hypervigilance with Terry. Like I just remember thinking like, when's he gonna get mad at me? Like when is the shoe gonna drop and he's gonna tell me how he really feels, right? So that was my own pain cycle, my own anxiety. And of course he wasn't, you know, caretaking me in that at all. He was just giving me feedback and telling me what I needed to be doing better and stuff. And I was like, in my own little pain bubble trying to work this stuff out. And it shifted at about three months where I think I came to this realization that Terry wants me to do well. He's actually rooting for me. His heart is one that is for me. He wants me to grow. And I remember that night we went into the feedback session after everything, and Terry just, I think he looked at me and he was like, what changed? Something shifted for you tonight. He saw it right away that I was just more free. I could just try things because I'm very creative. That's who I am. I'm a very creative person. And I've been that way, Lance, when you're talking about I could just pick up a guitar and play a song. I've been that way since I was three years old. My mom tells stories of me just sitting at the piano and hearing a song and playing it. That's just been a part of my life forever. And so, yeah, so present day, even the last couple of weeks at this retreat, I noticed after the mindful moment, kind of after the first morning there, that I was, that hyper vigilance was coming back in 'cause Terry was in the room. I was like watching his every move. Like I was back into that place, right, where I felt like, oh no, is he mad? Is he gonna be mad? It's nothing to do with him, it's everything to do with my own pain, right? And so I was able to work through that and I shared that with our group. And so I think present day for me, I think it is finding some way to hold on to the truth.

That.

It'S safe enough to trust people, things aren't gonna go the way that my worst fears are telling me, you know? Like, so even with clients, you know, I even recently had a client get really mad at me about something and someone who's like 30 years older than me, male, you know, like classic. Like, I'm like, yeah, here we go. Like, this is my thing. Like, I've got someone in this older position and they're getting mad at me. And I was able to hang with it because this is my client.

Right.

I was able to just go, yeah, that makes sense. He's in his pain. This is what's going on right now. This is what I signed up for. Like this, if I'm getting into working with this client, this is what's gonna happen. His pain cycle is gonna come out towards me, but that's, that's not about me. That's about him. And so I was able to call it out and be like, Hey, are you, you feeling frustrated with me right now? I just like talked to him about it. He's like, yeah. yeah, I am. And he started sharing why. And then within a couple minutes, he was like, oh, yeah, it's just this other stuff. It has nothing to do with you. And he started, you know, sharing and being more open and vulnerable about what was going on for him that this relationship was bringing up, which, to me, was such a win because that was the most vulnerable he'd been in a long time or ever.

Yeah.

Amazing.

When we I think, you know, one of the things we talked about today was to talk about, you know, the Forgiveness model. And, you know, one of the techniques you're using there is a high Insight level move there, you know, on the, with, with the Forgiveness model, we have these two Pathways to choose. I love this. It's kind of like choose your own adventure. Which station to go to today?

And it's the best.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know? I love that there's an option. It's like, do I want to work with the person or do I just want to work with the damage that was left? You know, Terry calls it salvage work when we want to deal with the damage because, you know, we got a broken ship that's lost at sea and we got to put something together. We have to put the pieces together to at least get back to doing work again to be able to live again. Or, you know, do we want to actually do the restoration work? And the good thing is we can do all, both of them, and in each one there's options to do. And one you're talking about is this insight place where, you know, we ask that question, you know, how is the pain that was dealt to me causing me to hurt others or myself in the world today?

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, absolutely. That's, I mean, what that brings up for me is the kind of the beginning of forgiveness for me, which was with Terry. I mean, I was in his office, it's like on the eve of our wedding, you know, like this is all, so much happened in like, all period of time.

I feel like I'm in the movie with you right now.

Yeah, yeah. So it's like, you know, I've been now in the live mode thing for, I don't know, seven or eight months, you know, and so I feel much more comfortable and I'm talking with Terry in his office one day and I was like, yeah, I just kind of ripped my dad a new one yesterday, you know, like I got really mad at him and like right before we're about to get married, it's like right before spring break when we had our wedding planned and everything and of course, you know, as my, my Good friend and pastor from Mountainside, Josh Smith, would say weddings, births and deaths are those three moments in a family where everything comes back to the surface. And so I was like, Yep, here it is, wedding, like my wedding. And I'm like, not even cussing my dad out. Like, I'm so mad at him. Like, it was bad. I was getting to such an angry place, right? And so it was just coming to the surface how mad I was. and he's forgiven me for that email that I wrote him. But things are much better now. But I remember walking into Terry's office and saying, like, this just happened. I have to go see clients now. This is just life, right? This is what's going on right now. And I think Terry said something like, and it had all started with me trying to have a conversation with my dad from my my control, like, because I was like, I need to have a conversation with him. And I, like, even tried to apologize to him for a few things I had done in high school, kind of, you know, and he just kind of wasn't ready to talk about it. Like, it wasn't the right time. And so Terry was like, yeah, what evidence is there that your dad's ready to have that conversation? You know, it was like, well, none, really. None at all. Thanks, Terry, for pointing that one out. You know, I was, like, getting frustrated, and he's like, yeah, so. Are you ready to stop walking out on the freeway in that relationship? Which I'm sure you all probably heard him say something similar, but it's just this thing where I was like, oh yeah, wow, I'm walking out into a really unsafe situation expecting something different. And so that was the beginning of me really starting to think about forgiveness and the forgiveness framework and just for myself and my dad and how if I can get to a place where I'm not trying to control him anymore, If I can get to a place where, and it was a lot of station three, a lot of giving him an opportunity to compensate because I just wanted him to take an interest. I wanted to go deep. I wanted to have conversations, but we weren't there yet in the relationship. This was right around the time he got finally diagnosed and started getting treatment through the VA and started doing a lot better. And it was around the time that I stop trying to get him into treatment and stop trying to get him to get better as I was kind of just grounding myself and treating him like an adult. He started taking better care of himself, like literally within a year. It was pretty phenomenal. But then I had a lot of work to do because I was still really mad and resentful. And so all that to say, Terry kind of helped me figure out how to do some Station 3 stuff with my dad and. and really come at it from a place of, what am I looking for? And what's the tiniest way I can offer that and look to see if that can be reciprocated? And that started years of approaching those conversations differently with my dad and things feeling a lot better and a lot safer to the point where now he lives in our neighborhood now. He and my mom just moved into our neighborhood a couple of years ago. So they're about a minute walk from our door to their door. Our kids are over there all the time. And I mean, 10 years ago, if you had told me that that was the future, I would have laughed hysterically in your face about that. Because it's like, yeah, right. I'm so mad. I'm so resentful. Yeah, right. That's gonna happen. And now it's like my three-year-old goes out and works on the 1934 Ford Coupe with my dad in his garage. You know, like my boy has these memories with his papa. that are just like so sweet. And even the other day, my daughter was like, Nana and Papa are like, really getting along with each other and like, feels so much more calm and peaceful. I was like, yeah, like they do, don't they? Like, I just think they've done a ton of work in their own lives in the past 10 years as soon as I stopped trying to do it for them. Like, that's what, that was my lesson and that's really what, so like when I think about forgiveness and I, like it's very personal for me and with my mom too, but it has completely changed those relationships and we've seen them. I've seen my parents do parenting with me in the past 10 years that I never would have anticipated. Like them actually stepping in and speaking truth to me, them like doing the kind of things that I've really needed, but I learned that, oh, I could do those things for myself. I can regulate. And if this happens, great, but it's not a guarantee, right? But it's just been really beautiful to see that actually, like, things have changed a lot with them.

That's awesome, man. Yeah, I think that the opportunities for compensation place in the restoration realm is such a inviting, like, flow for forgiveness. I think sometimes we have this expectation around forgiveness that you forgive and it's over, right? The empowered step of that giving opportunities for compensation says, no, here, I'm going to create a pathway towards being made right, believing, I think it's really important because there's a lot of people that don't do this part and it just kind of crashes, especially with betrayal work. Believing that you are a good person or you have it inside of you to be a good person. I think that's where we really can grow a lot. And just giving those, I think they're like olive branches to the other person to say, Hey, I'd love to get a coffee with you, or I'd love to do this with you. to, to, and slowly working it back to say, to reframe that relationship in a way where you have an empowered space and that you're not being, you know, overwhelmed anymore by the inappropriate behavior.

Yeah. Yes. Well, then. No, go ahead, Rhett.

I was just thinking there are people probably listening who maybe don't even know what the model is for forgiveness and RT. Like, that's very likely. And so I was just thinking.

Yeah.

Let's just, I was curious if we could do it this way. Let's say you're in session with the client and you want to kind of just have them visualize just to kind of see what the even pathway looks like. Justin, how would you map it out on a board for them just to kind of look at it? Like what are the quadrants? What language would you put up there?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And this is where I feel like I need a lot of assistant because it's like, how does this actually look? I mean, I in the past would have done more of that. I move more now towards like.

Just.

Trying to suss out what station they might be in and using it in their language too. So like, yeah, so presenting it like, you know, hey, first of all, I'm really trying to gauge Where is the client at? So I'll say to them, like, you know, is this something you want to work on with your dad? Like, if I were the client, I'd be like, is it, you know, do you want to not necessarily bring dad in the session, but like, do you want to work on this relationship? Like, is this someone you want to stay connected to?

Right?

Because that's the first piece is like, is it even safe with this person? Or is the person passed away or are they, you know, not able to, contact them anyways, even if they wanted to, et cetera, right? So like helping clients first make that empowered choice, right? Like, do I want to, like what Lance was saying earlier, do I want to just stay focused on salvage?

Right.

Yeah, like insight understanding. Do I just want to understand and stop that? pattern, that intergenerational pattern often of pain in terms of understanding how my pain was given to me by the violation of this person who's the perpetrator of the violation. But when I act out of that pain, I'm just passing it on. I'm creating more pain. So I start there in just trying to do that. And I have used a chart similar to this and just put that up there for them.

Yeah, I was just gonna say real quick, if people are watching on video, Lance has put up this is a chart, Lance, right, that you've made for the forgiveness model.

Yeah, it's an adaptation of Terry's forgiveness model. I think this is basically what he's created on the top part. We'll put it in the notes for everybody today. But on the top part is kind of the under-girding parts, which we probably won't have time to talk about today, but of justice, power, and love that Paul Tillich really creative. But yeah, continue talking.

Yeah, no, and sorry about that. I just want to point that out.

No, no, no, not at all. Yeah, so that's, yeah, so that big oval at the top, that's the first thing you have to really be mindful of, right? Is where, and like what Lance is saying, it's a choose your own adventure. You get to really empower the client because the reality is like, either way, they're going to experience something hopefully helpful for them and to be able to incorporate that into their mindfulness practice. So starting there, so I'm thinking of a client who I jumped into.

Some.

Salvage understanding work in particular and they were not ready for it and they let me know very quick that they were not ready for it. So it's this give and take with clients where sometimes you go on these hunches and go, I think this might be where the client's at in terms of the station. But really starting there. And then from there, it's so interesting because quite often we've already done a lot of the insight work, right? Like I was saying earlier, like I really see pain and peace cycle four steps as just like inherently insight work right there. Cause you're, even if you're not talking about the person who violated love or trust, you're already dealing with the same pain, right? Like we're chasing that pain down. helping them learn how to regulate it. So that's so by the time I'm usually working with clients at this point, often it's station three giving opportunity for compensation that people identify because a lot of times, you know, it's with a parent or yeah, or a spouse or a friend or a sibling and, you know, they don't want to cut off, right? Sharon talks about this a lot. Like, CUT OFF is pretty popular now culturally, and it's being termed as like a good boundary in a lot of, or it's being talked about in that way. But I mean, we know from a restoration perspective, and I did this for a decade, if you cut someone out of your life out of pain, you know, Bowen would say that's, that's the same as, you know, being super enmeshed with them. Like, I mean, like just in terms of differentiation, it's the same level of differentiation. If I'm cutting off out of pain or I'm like, really, really sucked in and enmeshed, either way, I'm in pain. And I think one of our faculty at Fuller was like, all it takes is a phone call to put you back into that place where you feel like you're eight years old. That's how you know you're not differentiated because it's just, I mean, yeah, it might be every three years because you cut them out of your life, but the moment that comes in, you're right back into your pain cycle. But a lot of clients don't want to do that. They feel guilty when they do that. They feel more isolated and they just know that's not what they want to do if it's safe enough to stay engaged with, for lack of a better term, the violator.

Right.

So, so quite often we are doing station three. I just noticed that. I don't know if either of you have noticed that, but that's a lot of what happens at this stage when I'm working with clients who have already kind of done a lot of pain and peace cycle of four step work. But they're like, how do I deal with my mom?

Yeah.

Giving opportunity for compensation.

Yeah.

Which is really fun because then we can get into like, and I, you two may do this differently. What I do is from that station, I go, okay, what is it you're looking for? Let's start there. We'll write it down. We'll like whiteboard it or whatever. It'll be like fairness. You know, I want her to apologize for what she did, you know, like I want her to acknowledge me. I want her to see me, like, you know, just thinking some of the common things that come up. So we start that and we go, okay, Yeah, valid, right? Valid goal. That would be lovely if your mom were to do this, you know, but what's the, and I'll just go, what's the evidence that, you know, that's gonna happen today? It's not, there's not a whole lot of evidence there, but how can I.

Shall we venture on the highway again?

Yeah, maybe they'll stop this time. Yeah, no, they won't stop. Yeah, such a good analogy.

And so, your daughter's gotten really big into Charlie Brown recently. So I always think of Lucy with the, The football. With the football. And it's like, here we go again.

That's totally it.

It's totally it.

Come on Charlie Brown, like you are just setting yourself up. No, really, it'll be different this time, right? No, it's not. So we start there with what is it you're looking for? You want Lucy to keep the ball down on the grass, right? Yeah, that would be fair. Okay. what's the tiniest way that you might be able to show that to her? But in a low risk way, like a postcard version of, like, if you do something for her and she doesn't reciprocate, you're gonna be okay. Like, it's just low risk, right? So we work at that point with clients to go, oh, so if I'm really looking for my dad to just understand me, I'll help them identify what's the tiniest bit of understanding you can offer him, but about the weather or something, like something that just doesn't matter all that much and feels like a shallow end kind of place to start and see if it can be reciprocated. So you're on the phone with your dad and we'll role play it, you know, and be like, hey, what's the weather like where you're at? You know, like, just, like, really that simple.

What's that?

Yeah. Yeah.

No, really?

I feel about that rain.

Yeah, what's that? Cool, cool. I mean, what do you do when it's raining? Really, find a way in to have the client offer that a little bit, but it's not too risky. And so that's what I did with my dad for maybe three or four years in my own story. I just asked him about music, what he was listening to, because he's got a really good taste in music. And it's like, I'll learn a lot this way, and at least we'll have conversations. and then one day a few years into that, after he started getting treatment and things were getting better, he started asking me about my life and my kids and my job for, like, the first time, really, like, for the first time since maybe. I mean, I don't even know when it had happened before that, where it didn't feel maybe like.

Yeah.

So.

And it felt genuine. And I really believe it's because I was less resentful because we. I was able to just. engage in a way that was safe so that I wasn't getting hit on the freeway.

Right.

But I was then way less angry with him. So he was safer because I was not a safe person for him. I was really mad at him, and I was not helping. That was my own side of the street. Right.

So.

So, yeah. So I think that. I think that might answer the question. And then also, yeah, I just want to repeat back. I mean, this is.

I think there's sometimes we live in this place of unsatisfaction with our people not honoring where they actually are. So we are unhappy that they are not there yet and miss out on where they are in their journey of becoming towards. So we have this expectation that you're gonna be able to, you know, climb this crazy mountain or, I don't know what things you guys are into. They're just not at that skill level yet, but there is a place where there is an entry point where they can come in. Okay. So you find that place for you, it was music, you know, for others it might be, oh yeah, you know, baseball, you know, or totally. And it's honoring the relationship for where it is. with this place that it could go somewhere. I think this is really important forgiveness work is recognizing that forgiveness has momentary elements to it. However, forgiveness is way more process oriented. It is a journey of this we must do that we must engage in.

Yes.

It's good.

And it's, I was just gonna say it, I mean, we all inhabit a faith in a Christian world, you know, that is important to us. And like really unpacking the complexities of forgiveness is often really challenging with Christian clients who like, depending on your background and upbringing, this idea, I just gotta forgive and forget or move on, or we just restore without doing any salvage, which is not even really, yeah, frustration work. Yeah. Or I'll get a couple in here sometimes with like, let's just say major violations and like, I forgive you and then like, we just want to go. And I like what you said, Lance. You can experience really beautiful moments in a marriage while still in the process of a long forgiveness of journey. But it can take time. Sometimes it might be in a journey of years. why you pop your head up and look around and also take note that there's been really good opportunities for compensation and good opportunities for moments of forgiveness along the way. And so, yeah, I'm just rambling, but as you're talking, Justin, I'm like, yeah, because I love the model, but it made me think about how just diving more and taking more time in each area, each quadrant. rather than sometimes I have the tendency to put the hole out there. And I'm like, you know, no, maybe we just spend a lot of time in one area specifically, you know, and not even think about the next. Well, I know it's non-linear necessarily, but.

Yeah.

But anyways, I. Yeah, I just love hearing your story of your dad's. You and your dad's Journey.

Yeah.

That image of, like, your. son building the car with him. Talk about restoration.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

Home, like, coming back to where you grew up. It's just so, like, beautiful.

Yeah.

No, really.

And.

And, I mean, as you were talking about that, Rhett, it just reminded me that, like, the whole point of it is that I learned a way to engage, but stay regulated. Like, I. I learned a way to stop. the control in my own pain cycle so much, which leads to anger, which leads to shame. Like those are my, like in that order, those are the dominoes every time. Like clockwork, exactly what I will do when I'm performing. I will then get angry. I will then withdraw to shame myself, like 100% ask my kids. They will tell you, yep, that's what dad does. Yeah, he's micromanaging and then he gets mad and then he's gone, you know, like when he's in pain, right?

So.

And so I I just kind of came to this where I was like, I'm the one, like, causing so much of this pain in my relationship with my dad on my side of the street because, like, I'm so. I'm just trying to control. I'm trying to help and fix and all these things, so the. Finding opportunity for compensation was like a practical grounding tool for me. That's what was so important about it was like, I got it. I was able to just like figure out how to use it. And I started to see that I was less resentful. I was less angry. I was able to just like let go of trying to be in charge and be in control of my family. And meanwhile, I have to do that same work with Kari and with my kids. Like it's the exact same thing. So every time I'm practicing this with my dad, ad, it's the exact same thing I have to practice with my kids. It's my, it's my pain cycle. So that's what I love about the forgiveness models. It just gives you like practical creative things to focus on like actively when you're in a conversation with this person, here's what you're gonna do, right? Like the client, you kind of co-create that with the client, but it's all just a way to help the client be regulated and like move to a place of peace, right? It's just, lots of different stations and opportunities. Yes, that's what I love about it. And I mean, you wanted me to talk a little bit, and I'm just mindful of time, the RT in the wild idea.

Well, I think you, by the way, well, maybe you're the guy who's gonna write a beautiful story into integrating the Forgiveness model for not only our RT community, but other people. I just wanted to throw that out there to you.

Well, yeah, I mean, that's, I've thought about it and a few people have mentioned kind of the same thing. And, and it's just where my brain goes, like, the, the. And so, like, if I were to write a book, I'd probably use this movie, a beautiful day in the neighborhood. I think you all seen a beautiful day in the neighborhood with Tom Hanks. He plays Fred Rogers. Fred Rogers? Yeah. That's my go to if somebody says, what's the forgiveness model? I say, okay, go watch that movie. Read Family Feud and then go watch a beautiful day in the neighborhood. So for the RT in the wild idea, I have lists of movies in different topics of RT. And that's my go to for forgiveness is that movie because all four stations happen. Fred Rogers actually helps this reporter walk through each of the four stations at different points in the film, and it's based on a true story. Like, he just kind of becomes this guy's therapist. Right.

And.

And it's just. It's hilarious, too. It's a really just like a funny movie, and I think they did a really good job portraying Fred's, you know, life and. And what he was really like and. how he would just be sitting at lunch with someone and be like, you know, sometimes I like to just take a moment and stare into someone's eyes in silence for about a minute. Let's do that now. You know, and like, they're just sitting there over lunch and just breathing and looking into each other's eyes, you know? And like, that's like, that's who this guy was. Like, he was practicing mindfulness, right? Like all the time to the consternation of his own crew, like at the beginning of the film when the reporter walks in, you know, because nobody else will take an interview with him except Fred Rogers, and he has a black eye and Tom Hanks and Fred Rogers, he's like, what happened to you? Like before anything else, he's like, you got a black eye. What's going on? You know, and meanwhile, like the crew is back here, like, Fred, we're trying to finish the episode, like, come back, you know? And he just spends like a long time talking to this guy right away. And it just makes the dude more and more frustrated at first, because he's like, this isn't about me, you know, but he had just gotten punched out by his own dad at his sister's wedding, like, a couple days before that. And then he meets Fred Rogers, and Fred Rogers starts helping him do forgiveness with his dad. Like, that's that movie. That's the whole. And it's real. You can read the real article in Esquire that was written about this reporter's experience and how he was taking his pain out on his family and on his. His son and his wife. And it gets into all of that. This movie is like, a master class in the Forgiveness Framework, I think.

So we need to put this on the sub stack. I think you're the, and I challenge everybody that listens to this. If there's a good movie that you have, because I think story and narrative is really helpful. So if you're listening to this and, and you're like, hey, that sounds great. I'm gonna go get a beautiful day in the neighborhood and look through the, the model we need to do this. we need to put this on the, on the sub stack to really create that dialogue we're looking for because we have so many great ideas and.

Well, so then this is the, it sounds like your creativity is in seeing the different things out there in the world, music, movies, whatever. And you have this idea maybe of doing a podcast or something, I think. RT in the Wild. Is that what you are?

RT in the Wild.

Yeah.

That's it. Share that.

Because Lance and I are going to put some lovingly pressure on you to put it out into the wild.

Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, I thought about the Marvel Mindful Minute or something like that. I have all these different ideas because I think Disney and Marvel have, I think they're reading Terry's books, I'm pretty sure, in different points, you know. But yeah, I just, early on, I think I started to see maybe even while I was still at Fuller, I was like, these ideas are not just exclusive to RT. There's stuff happening out there, particularly in really good stories that are being told. And I just, I'm like, I love action films, I love sci-fi, give me all that stuff all the time. I love to not go too deep in my media consumption because I'm a therapist and I'm like, I don't want to feel like I'm working outside of work. So like, I just want to see a dumb, like, Arnold Schwarzenegger action movie from the 90s or something. Like, just like, I, that's sort of what I do when I need to just relax is, I don't know, watch Predator or something. But, but all that to say, I started noticing this and I think the first one that really stood out to me, well, a couple. One, There's an X-Men film from, oh gosh, 2015, 2016, I think, called Days of Future Past. I think I mentioned this to you, Lance, at the retreat, where there's literally a moment. Rhett, have you seen this film? I have not.

No.

Okay. This is the one I'd highlight among all the X-Men films because there's literally a moment where through Wolverine, who traveled into the past, because he's the only one who can make the trip, basically this person sends his consciousness back to like the 1970s. He's still in the future where things are not going well. Like the world's about to end. The last mutants are about to be killed. But one of these mutants can send someone's consciousness into the past. But the only person who can do it is Wolverine because he can self-heal. If she did this to Professor X, he would die, right? Like, but what they need is 1970s Professor X to wake up and start helping because he's basically numbing himself out. He's using this drug to suppress his powers so that he can't connect to all the mutants because even in the 70s, mutants were being persecuted quite a bit. And he just, at a certain point, says, I can't take it anymore. And it's actually connected to the Vietnam War and a lot of mutants who are being sent to Vietnam and being killed. It's a really fascinating look at the US and politics and all this stuff. But anyways, all this to say, There comes a moment where Wolverine is just really frustrated with young Professor X and he's like, you've got to help, you've got to come out of whatever it is that you're in. We need you and I know, 'cause I'm from the future and we're all about to die if you don't wake up and start helping again. And Professor X just won't listen to him. He's like, you don't know my pain. You don't understand me. Like, F off, basically. He's like, that's it. Get out of here. Like, he says that to him. Like, he's so mad. And Wolverine's like, you,'re right. You won't listen to me, but there's someone you will listen to. He couldn't make the trip. I was the only one who could get here. But if you reach into my mind, you'll find him. Because Wolverine's actually in the future in the same room as future Professor X. So past Professor X looks into Wolverine's mind and connects with future Professor X, like 50, 60 years in the future, Professor X, and they have a conversation, right? You see where this is going. Like future Professor X says literally, like, I don't know if I quoted exactly, he says, you, think you're not strong enough to handle the pain, but I know you are. and past Professor X, he's like, it's so, I think he literally says it's so overwhelming. It overwhelms me. It's going to kill me to feel the pain of all the mutants out there in the world right now. And future Professor X is like, no, you have what it takes. You can do this. Like, he's reparenting him. Like, literally a reparenting intervention. Future to past. And that's why it's called X-Men days of future past. Like, the whole plot. hinges on this one reparenting moment. And he speaks directly into his pain. It's specific to his pain because he knows the pain that he was going through in the 70s. Like he knows exactly what was happening. So this whole thing ends. The power comes back on in the facility and Wolverine says, Hey, the power came back on. And Pastor X looks at him and goes, Yes, it did. And then he goes into Cerebro, puts the thing on and starts doing his job. Like, so that was the first time I was like, wait a minute. The power, the powers back on. Right? I was like, who's reading Terry's book over at Marvel? What's going on here? Like, this is literally a reparenting intervention, like straight from that chapter, you know? So that was my first kind of like, wait a minute. This is familiar since then. I mean, there's so many examples. I won't get into all of them right now because I know we have time. I have a whole spreadsheet.

Much you have to create your own on my podcast.

Yeah.

So that's a little, that's a little, I guess, I mean, a little moment that stood out to me. There's so many, though.

Like, do you have any favorite rats? Any, do you have any favorites, Rhett?

Favorite what?

Movies or, like, stories where you just see restoration therapy coming through that you would share?

As, I mean, as Justin was talking, I was like, I need to keep my eyes more open outside of, like, I think I've just been so engrossed in, like, theological literature and Bible stuff that I see it, like, everywhere, you know?

Yeah.

But then I'm, like, thinking about just movies and things, and. And I don't have something that, like, jumps out at me at the moment.

I was watching the Bible. Well, I just. Theology.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I guess, you know, when I'm thinking about, like, you know, as it relates to RT, a lot of the old self, new self work and everything, I mean, I see that pop up everywhere in movies. You know, you can't find a good movie, at least from my opinion, that isn't some type of restoration involved. Like, oh, yeah, we're drawn to characters where there is some process of restoration.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, in healing. And I just, I'll have to, like, think of a specific, which is crazy. I don't have a specific, but I'm just like, those are the movies I love, where the character is taken on a journey and there's a process of restoration involved.

Totally. I I thought of. So I have a little girl. and part of having little girls or little children in general, you get to watch the same movie a thousand times.

Yep.

One of those movies was Moana. Do you guys. Have you guys seen the movie Moana?

I have not.

Here 7, 500 times.

Okay.

Yeah.

See, Rhett, you probably. Yours would probably be. you know, with when your kids were.

At a certain age, but we're watching Severance right now. And I had an ongoing RT discussion about this with a few people on a thread who couldn't handle the first few shows and we're done with it where I'm totally enraptured. All right.

We need to talk. We need to talk about this.

I had a client walk out of a long hallway, like multiple hallways getting out of my office. and they're like, I feel like I'm in Severance about to walk out from my inni to my Audi now. And I was like, yeah. And one of our colleagues used Severance in a therapy session to do an intervention, which totally changed her clients life.

So there.

That's my, that's my current moment of pop culture in RT.

And we will not, that's so true. We will not name those who have not liked Severance as much.

I'll just say this. I think the four inies, at least in the first season, represent a different realm of coping. They all have their own way of coping. And they all, one's a shamer, one's a blamer, one's control, one's escape. And they do it, I mean, Mark's the escaper, right? But they're all doing this, but they all have their own problem. And I think it's all four quadrants of coping. I've watched it twice. I'm analyzing it constantly. I think it's, One of the best shows out there anyways.

Yeah, no, this is why I want to see this podcast up and going number one and then number two I draw it on my notepad Let's just create a separate category within the sub stack that's just all RT in the wild stuff that Justin curates.

Yeah, I'd be happy to. I mean, I If you all, this is the last thing I'll say, because I could talk about this all day, but Mavis Staples, who's one of my favorite singers, gospel singer, has been putting out stuff with like Jeff Tweedy of Wilco and like just her third act has been amazing. And she did this song with Ben Harper. And I think the chorus, which I don't, I'll butcher it, but it's like, do what you can, do what you must. Everyone's just trying to find some love and trust. Like that's the chorus of this Ben Harper, Mavis Staples song. Like they just sing this over and over and over again. But it's not just love, it's love and trust, right? This is where my brain goes. I start listening to like Tom Petty and I'm like, he's talking about this. Like I can't, I have connectivity as one of my strengths in the strengths finder. I can't not see the connections all over the place. And if you talk to any of my supervisees, they, they you know, sometimes they give me the feedback like, okay, we don't need as many, you know, pop culture, music, TV, movie references, Justin. We're good. But, yeah.

It's like Neo in the Matrix when he finally is able to see the Matrix all around him as he's acting in this world.

Yeah.

Restoration therapy. Restoration therapy.

Oh, my gosh. No, it's blessing and curse. Yeah, yeah.

The truth. You need the truth.

Just saying we were watching the Amazing Race last night and I could see in this relationship between this husband and wife, I was like, he's getting pretty controlling. Or I think he's going to get mad by the end of this episode. He's going to get pretty mad at his, and he did. He got very mad at her towards the end. And she was like, you called it. And I was like, that's me. I know that when I'm controlling, I will get mad. That's what happens. I could just see it coming. So yeah, I wish I could just turn it off, I guess, but I can't. It's everywhere. It's everywhere.

So I know we have limited time here. I just want to thank you for coming on today, Justin. I really appreciate you being here.

And.

I kind of want to close with this Moana piece. Would that be okay? Yeah. I like that. I'm asking if it's okay. It's like, it'd be funny if you said no. I've been, like, good boundaries, but I want to encourage all of us therapists, because I feel like we're all Moanas. And at the. At the end of the movie, I'm gonna ruin it for you, Rhett. I'm so sorry.

No, you're good, man. I think it's been out a while. That's my bad.

Yeah, but there's this spoiler alert. Yeah, there's this thing, they call it the Lava Monster that everyone's afraid of.

Takaa. Takaa.

Yeah.

And in this quintessential scene, the whole goal is like they have stolen the heart from Te Fiti and we need to return the heart to Te Fiti, who is like this creator of life and joy all around the world, right? that's the one that makes the islands and everything's dying because the heart has been stolen from Te Fiti by Maui. And Moana has been given this task of returning the heart to Te Fiti. And she's going and running up after this like crazy seamer to cause like throwing these like big bombs at her. And she like climbs this huge mountain and she gets to the top of the mountain. only to see that Te Fiti is gone. But then she turns and she looks and she sees Takaa and she makes this amazing place where she says, it all comes together first. She says, I have crossed the horizon to find you. I know your name. they have stolen the heart from inside of you. But this does not define you. This is not who you are. You know who you really are. And she, like, charges across the ocean as she's saying this thing. And there's this, like, hug moment where she puts their heads.

Together.

And it's like this loving nature. And she grabs the heart and she puts it right back in to cause heart. And then all of a sudden, like life returns and they're able to give life back everywhere.

Yeah.

And I would say as therapists, we are all Moanas that we get to help people find their hearts again. And we get to help them put it back in. They're not really lava monsters. They're not takas. We get to help them figure out their real names and walk wholly into that. RT in the Wild, baby.

RT in the Wild. There it is. That's RT in the Wild.

That is my, I want to be, that's my advertisement. And that is also my application to be a guest on your show. okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

You win. You'll be on the show.

I was like, does Lance have that memorized? That whole scene?

Like I said, I have a little girl.

Yeah.

Like, loves that movie. And there's a bunch of them, but, like, that. That one. I remember I had this client. They're like, you have to watch this movie. You have to watch this.

Yeah, yeah.

I can't. I have to watch it with my daughter. and then I finally watched it and I came in and I was like, I know why you wanted me to watch that. I know exactly.

Yeah, no, Amos, our three-year-old was walking around singing one of those songs this morning, several of them. It was a mashup actually, straight from Moana. He is in his Moana era right now. Like, he's all about it. And yeah, so there you go, RT in the wild. That's it. It's everywhere.

Well, hey, Justin, we appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast today. And, yeah, thanks for having me. When listening, we'll put all the notes in the show notes, and some. I'm gonna track down some videos to post as well. And we look forward to having you back on. You guys have a good day.

Bless you, bro.

Hey.

Bye, guys.

Yeah.