https://www.listennotes.com/e/f0745cd43bc7400a9a9a3998bce2099a

Thanks Tanner.

Lance, what's up man?

Rhett, how stoked are you right now?

I am really excited about our guest tonight on the RT podcast, or RT dialogue podcast.

The guest tonight, we sound like some radio show or something.

Well, we've been thinking a long time about doing an anxiety roundtable and just talking through different components of anxiety. So, I thought I'd start with you, Lance. You want to introduce the guests, even though everyone knows who they are?

Yes. Well, I mean, it's really funny that I'm introducing these amazing people, but I think it is great for us to just, for those of people that might be just getting into restoration therapy, you're in for a treat today because we got some heavy hitters today. I mean, first off, we have you read. I mean, you wrote the book on anxious Christians.

Oh, gosh.

Yeah.

I mean, you gotta start it. A lot of this started because of you, brother.

There's definitely some things in that book that I still stand by and a million things I've learned since then. But there is a tracing of the RT model in there for sure. That has helped me with anxiety. But thanks, Lance. I appreciate that.

Yes. And we have Terry Hargrave. The founder of Restoration Therapy. Say hi, Terry.

Hey, man. It's good to be with y'all.

And then we have Tanner Hargrove, who helped create the Turning from Anxiety Intensives. We're super stoked for you to be here. Say hi. Hello.

Glad to be here.

Tanner, get ready, everybody. It's gonna be awesome. And then we have Miss Megan Eakin, my compatriot, also trainer for the training from anxiety intensives. She has done the leadership series with the Boone Center of the Family, talking through anxiety, and she has her own restoration coaching for anxiety. Say hi, Megan.

Hey, guys. Happy to be here.

And last but not least, we have the The word smith of all wordsmiths, the therapy Thursday collective amazingness of all amazingness. If you ever needed some sea glass, she's got you covered. We have Nicole Zaleski. Say hi.

Hi.

So happy to be here.

Nice. Well, we're here to talk about anxiety, right, Rhett?

Yeah, I think, you know, Let's start a good place, maybe. I have a couple different directions I'd like to go, Lance. You tell me, we can start by defining anxiety.

Yep.

And then I'd like to kind of, not kind of, I'd like to talk to Terry about starting kind of top down how RT looks at anxiety. But let's start with, and Terry, let's just start with you. How would you define anxiety?

Yeah, I definitely think that anxiety is based in, you know, our society tends to look at anxiety and fear as the same thing. The reality about that is that fear is a primary emotion. One way that you can tell secondary emotions from primary emotions is, you know, what is the question after that? You know, for instance, you know, when you say, I'm anxious, people say, well, what are you anxious about? In other words, there's something behind that anxiety that's not an object. It's that, you know, I'm fearful or, you know, afraid of this or afraid of that or something of that nature. So, you know, right off the bat, you know, we have to acknowledge that anxiety is something you do in response to emotional dysregulation. And it's particularly insidious, you know, my definition would be anxiety is ruminating on fear to the point where a person trains their brain to continue ruminating.

That.

Actually injures their identity and sense of safety. In other words, rumination itself is bad because what it does is it takes your fear and starts going over it and over it and over it and over it. And if you continue to doing that, you actually train your brain to become like, that's that's somehow needed in my life, in this person's life. So let's continue to do that. Everything that has the slightest amount of question or fear associated with it, the way we handle this is we kind of have the spinning circle on the computer to say, let's just keep going over it and over it and over it to the point where it just damages it either injures identity or your sense of safety or both of those things at the same time. So, you know, it's much, much more toxic than what most people think. It's not like, well, everybody has anxiety. No, not really. Everybody has fears. That's not the same thing. Not everybody ruminates on their fears to the point where it starts injuring their identity and sense of safety.

Yeah, that's really interesting, Terry. When I was doing research on the, I was like, how do other cultures use this word anxiety? I remember the word anxiety comes from the Latin, which means to narrow one's view. So it's like this very tightening of the focus, which would point to that rumination. The Greek word was, you know this one, Nehemiah or Mayor of Nao. there it is. To have a divided mind, right? Like, your. Your mind is divided.

And.

And the Hebrew, there's like this. There's two words that there's there. One. One talks to the divided mind, but another talks about, like, feeling weighed down with worry. So it's like this. All these things, like, you use this phrase is anxiety is what we do. It's not what we feel.

Yeah.

In that interest.

It's not a primary emotive quality, and it's quite different than fear. Fear is very functional. Fear is our friend in many ways. It keeps us going. It helps us to move away from things that are dangerous to us. It keeps us alert. Anxiety, that kind of ruminating process, runs us into the ground, teaches us that we must be incapable of managing ourselves. But mostly it makes us, it, you know, leads to us seeing the boogeyman in every situation. I mean, it's something's out to get me no matter what. And if there isn't, I create it on my own. That's the process where I'm training my brain to actually do the very thing that's so painful for me.

Terry, as you talk about that, is that at all related? Is there an addictive quality? Is it the same part of our brain that would operate like an addiction? Or is rumination different than that?

So here's the great undiscovered country, Nicole, is that, you know, what I would tell you is not only are anxiety and depression tied together because depression has the same ruminating quality with a little bit different twist around negativity and self deprecation and things of that nature. But rumination, I would say, is at the root of OCD, addiction, eating disorders. You know, it starts, you start finding this kind of quality where you train your brain in such a way that it injures you and takes away your life. That, I think we're gonna find out a lot more about rumination in years to come, but I think what we're onto right now in talking about anxiety not only has absolute direct connection to depression, but it also probably will eventually have direct connection to addictions and OCD.

That's interesting. It makes me think about how when I'm working with someone who is struggling with rumination, there is a hit that they get off of ruminating.

Right.

It does serve them in the immediate to take down the anxiety a beat or two. And there's other things that we can do in anxiety that can sort of serve as the hit, so to speak, if we're thinking about it in terms of addiction and the habit of it. I mean, it really does fall in my mind, the habit, the automaticness of it, and then also It feels good in this moment to think about it. It's completely destructive. It's not helpful and it has long term effects. It feels good in the moment. Sorry, go ahead.

Right, and I also think part of what it does is it creates, I think that's part of what you're saying too, Terry and Megan, is that it creates almost not an alternate reality, but a sort of an alternate reality in which I don't really have to do anything, which is a lot of what we see with the addictive capabilities as well is, thosE addictions become escapes that put them into a place where responsibility isn't having to be taken. And then the anxiety is just doing it in a way that creates this whole other experience that essentially just says, I'm helpless here. I can't do anything about this. I'm stuck. I'm trapped over and over and over again as well. Really an interesting idea. Geez.

Have you been experiencing this in the therapy room, Tanner?

Yeah.

What do you think? I think that's part, I think this is all kind of falling into place for me now as we talk about this as a possible connection on some levels to ideas of like, anxious or, I mean, addictive thoughts on some levels. And I'm thinking about it similarly to anger. I don't know that that's a direct correlation there, but it feels very similar to me on some levels. And I think I've seen it a lot, especially with adolescents and their families. They can take this anxious loop and then it becomes the identity through which they're seeing everything else. And so if it's a healing system, there's this anxiety about what could happen to my kid or what is happening to my kid or how they could end up or not end up. And then as a result, it's causing me to see my kid in a different way, or the kid is taking that on. And then the kid or the adolescent or the emerging adult is even saying, like, there's nothing I can do about this. I'm out of control. Life is just out to get me. The ship is already sailed. There's no way around these kinds of things. And so that as a result, it feels like at times, from my experience as the clinician in the room, you can feel like your hands are tied a little bit because they kind of hit you in every direction you try to go. And that's really when I start noticing like, okay, I think we've got a, we don't necessarily have a behavioral issue. We've got an anxiety issue and we really need to see if we can shift some of those perspectives out of that anxious thought loop ruminating to really start to be able to change some of the behaviors. And I think it's a really, it's a toxic place to be or it.

Can be on some levels.

Yeah.

Why don't we get into maybe, you know, Terry and Rhett, I know the two of y'all like, and even Tanner, like when you said six years ago, Terry, that y'all first started talking about how does restoration therapy kind of deal with this? Like, yeah.

So you all know anxiety has been the last 40 years has just been out the wazoo in terms of increasing. You know, I remember in 1996, A journal article that I read was saying the current normal level of anxiety in 1996 was described the hospitalized population in the mental health hospital in 1956. So in other words, the normal person had the same level of anxiety that a hospitalized person had in 1956. By the time we went to, Sharon and I went to Fuller and Pepperdine, there was this other statistics that at Pepperdine, the number of people going to the University Counseling Center for anxiety was seven times the number that went for anxiety in the year 2000. So 2008 to 2000, from 2000, you have seven times as many people seeking help for anxiety. So this is, and you know, that's not even close to where we are now, 15, 16, 17 years later. So what you have in 2019, came various, you know, and we had Rhett speak on anxiety at one of the initial summits or dialogues or whatever we had back in 2015 or 2016. And we've always kind of been interested in that issue. But in 2019, Sharon and I got a call from the Windshape Foundation and saying, you know, we have a lot of Chick-fil-A restaurant operators that are calling us saying, we need something for the young people that are working for us because they're just overwhelmed by anxiety. So what the vision was is can you create an intensive type model that would address anxiety? And Sharon and I said, well, we're interested in that. We'll get back with you. We talked to Tanner and Rhett, then COVID hit. And so it took us two years to work our way out of COVID But then in 2022, you know, we had some research, we had some ideas. And like most things in our RT, we said the best way to find this out is to try it out. And so we had two pilots intensives set up and we actually- Not four pilots though. Just two pilots initially, right? Yeah, four pilots, four co-pilots, two pilot intensives. And the result was promising, the first one. Second one was even more promising. And then we trained an initial group of therapists. You and Megan were part of that group. Nicole was part of that group also of that initial training to say, this is the protocol. Go out and see if you can replicate this intensive. We had four intensives that came back and said, yeah, this is actually working. And so we've kept training people from there. But the dynamic report the reports that you get from individual therapy or group therapy or intensive format therapy has been, you know, astounding, to say the least. But that's how.

Was there a moment, Terry, this is for Terry Rhett or Tanner, who were at the original pilot, like, working it out, making this stuff up as you're going right with the basis of the Restoration as the foundation. Was there a moment for any of you where you were like, oh, this is gonna work. We got it in some way. Was there any moments where it felt like this is, this is good?

I mean, I can't speak for, oh, go ahead, Terry.

For me, there were, there were two moments. The first moment was, does, do the four steps have anything to say to anxiety? And we that first intension was a lot of embodiment and work around that issue. And I think there was one of those moments also in the second intension of, I'm going to let you go, Tanner.

Well, I mean, I think that.

I.

Don'T know how to say this without sounding pompous, but y'all tell me. I think we knew it was going to work because we knew the demand and we knew the need was so great and growing. that we knew, like we all, and we'll talk about this a little bit later as we get into the conversation together, but we all have been impacted so heavily by RT. And so to see the influx of anxiety in our own practices and in the world in general, we just knew like this is a perfect antidote to what we're seeing rise here. And we knew that with the connections that we all had and the work that we were all doing, that we were going to be able to make it work. And we also knew from the marriage intensive experiences that we had seen positive results there. And that was the research that was feeding into the impact that Intensive based therapies could have. And so we just kind of saw all of those, you know, stars really just kind of aligned that said, like, we feel fairly confident that this is going to be a success and the clients are going to feel an impact by this because we took all of the most powerful dynamics of not only the RT process, but all of the embodiment, all of the experiential pieces and the intensive models. And we tried to move them all into one. And so we just kind of knew, like, let's just take all of these. really positively efficacious experiences and try to get them all in the same place around this specific cultural area of need. And we were like, yeah, we're gonna hit this out of the park.

We got the recipe.

Yeah, the recipe felt like it was gonna work.

Yeah.

And so we've, of course we've tweaked it and it continues to get tweaked as it will, but it just felt like we were onto something.

And I, again, if COVID did anything right, it two years later, I mean, you know, statistics are everywhere, but I know like in 2018, what I read is that on any given moment about what, 18 and a half percent of the adult population is diagnosed with the anxiety disorder. Post COVID, I was seeing numbers that said on average 33% of the adult population is diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. So you're, you almost double it through COVID. There was one moment actually, and this goes to rumination. I remember Terri standing up in the room and saying to a participant, if you have a hundred ruminating thoughts a day, you need to relentlessly 101 times a day, like intervene in that rumination, like radically intervene. And I was like, wow. Like, this is how, I guess, the word serious or how actively we need to participate in, in the way that anxiety works in our lives and not just sit back. And even since then, Terry, like, I've even seen an increase in the, I would say, in the last six months to a year, like, the word rumination is this. it seems like, and I don't know, I'm sure social media plays in a lot to this as well, but just the ruminating thoughts, it just seems to be even more important today than even a couple of years ago.

Yeah, I think that, you know, we're part of the group that is naming it correctly now. The idea that it's not, we're not powerless with this, that we can really make a big effect. It surprises me though. I mean, there are two things that are absolutely evident in the research right now, is that one, anxiety is not fear. Anxiety, increasingly we're getting the idea that anxiety is what you do in the research. The other thing is that the idea of that you have to radically do something to get your brain on the track to stop ruminating. It takes a lot of empowerment and just a will to say, I'm not doing that anymore. I'm going to do this instead. It's mindfulness. But so clearly the research says that it is amazing to me that the therapeutic world has just simply and almost exclusively ignored that. It still believes that the way that you change is understand your client and empathize with them and they'll get better. instead of doing. Also, the idea that anxiety is a feeling. I mean, the number one question in 2019 that people treated anxiety with their clients was, Tell me about your anxiety or what are you anxious about? And so they would go through this laborious explanation through 20 weeks of therapy Yeah, amazing.

It's so wild to me. And I think I would probably, maybe we could spend some time right now just talking around the misconceptions about anxiety that we have. Because I know we all had some thoughts coming into the room. And then maybe, you know, if it makes sense, we could talk about the empowering applications that we have. But I know before we got on, Nicole, you were talking about this whole idea of around the misconceptions. You're like, there's nothing I can do. Could you talk more about that?

Sure. Well, I, my, my writing and speaking has allowed me to swim in some waters where people are very interested in therapeutic concepts. That's the good news. The bad news is I really feel like they're, they're getting bad answers. And, and I was talking with this group about what some of those are, particularly around anxiety, because it is such a and interest among the broader population. But one of them being that anxiety is a feeling and not something that you do. Another one being if I if I just endlessly understand my anxiety and examine it from all sides and the stories that contributed to this, that that I can unlock the secret to anxiety, rather than that being the very I'm not sure what that's called, but it's like a rumination that we're trying to avoid. And then a third main one would be this disempowering language around it, whether that's identifying with it, or, you know, I'm anxious as if it's part of our identity, or that this is just something I have that I can never break free from, which naturally impacts a person's expectations in therapy and, and the work and the agency that they feel like they have in a therapeutic setting to do it differently. And so, One of the things that I've had a lot of fun with because I swim in these waters, but I also get to be with you all and I practice the RT model in my personal life and I obviously practice it as a therapist. And I'm really passionate about bringing that RT language to that broader audience in a way where the language is accessible and I can give it to them in bite-sized pieces. So that's what I've had fun doing therapy Thursday around. But those are, those are the main misconceptions I see. I'm sure they're similar to you all, but I would also be curious, what are some of the things you're seeing in your therapeutic rooms?

Yeah.

What would you add on, Megan?

One of the things that I see a lot is a lot of clients don't even recognize that they're doing anxiety, that there is, they might call themselves anxious if it finally reaches their body. And they'll say, I feel anxious. But anxiety starts so much further back than that. I have clients who come in and say, I got this text and I can't respond to it right now, or I got this email and I have to respond to my boss. and I feel anxious about it. Well, tell me more about that. And they'll say, well, I can't respond right now. And what they would have done is they would have probably done some other behavior to cope with that underlying feeling of probably out of control or overwhelmed or some message of unsafe or unloved, right? But they don't associate any of these other behaviors like people pleasing, or ruminating thoughts. We keep saying ruminating thoughts as an anxious thing. A lot of people don't know that ruminating is, is what they're doing and that they're doing is anxiety. They would just say, I'm thinking a lot. So it's so, it's so powerful. I once gave a sheet, my coping sheet for my anxiety program and my coaching program is specifically to anxiety. And I break down the coping with what happens in your body, what happens in your brain, what happens in your behavior. And I get really specific and I hand this over to my anxious clients and they literally will be like, are you reading my journal? Like, this is all these things, but wait, these are all things that are anxious? Like, these are all my anxious coping?

Yes.

It doesn't just mean you feel that frenetic energy sometimes. It's a lot of, yeah. There's a lot of things like the way you're thinking about something. That's not, the good news is it's not you. It's not, it's not you. It's your anxiety and it's the thing that you're doing. So I get super excited and passionate about helping people recognize what, how and what anxiety is, what they're doing with their anxiety in their life. Um, I think a lot of people don't recognize how much anxiety how many things are anxious coping. The other thing I think is there is for sure, I don't know what it is if it's since 2020 or since we've become really comfortable in the mental health space in a good way, but a lot of people really like to identify as anxious. I'm seeing this a lot in the younger population. people in leadership and churches are talking about my.

My.

My congregation. When they talk about anxiety, they don't talk about it like it's a bad thing. They just almost wear it like a badge. Well, I'm anxious, and there's almost like an ergo. I don't show up to Bible studies or I'm anxious, so I just. I I I am. I'm a map. People can walk over. I'm just a people pleaser. I'm anxious. So I just let people walk all over me and I have no boundaries. But it becomes this thing that they get to identify themselves as. And then that's it.

It's almost like a closure of the identity development process in adolescence. Like we've seen that with some other badges or identities that people can put on, and that's a different conversation, but I'm seeing anxiety as one of those. identity development, foreclosure.

That's a really interesting idea.

Yeah.

Totally.

Yeah.

So that, I mean, there's, we could talk for an hour about what's problematic about that, but I think that's, that's.

An interesting misconception to point out. I appreciate that. I love your kind of playing with the brain, the body and the behavior mainly because it feels like a pastoral sermon where you use all Bs.

I have three points.

And they all start with the letter B. But I will not forget it now. I'll tell you that much. What did you say, Tanner?

I think, were you gonna say something?

Oh, no.

Well, I'll say something.

I was gonna, I wasn't gonna say something, but it's just, that's interesting because I think personally I had a hard time over the years detaching myself from an identity about being an anxious person. You know, because I saw so long as anxiety helpful to me in a lot of ways in terms of facing my fears and working through things. And, you know, early on in like the book that I wrote, and I was a huge, huge fan of Kierkegaard and just kind of like seeing anxiety as this like sense of freedom that it's the alarm going off in your life says, pay attention to me, pay attention to me. so I felt like I saw it as a helpful guy, but almost over time, I didn't know how to live without it. Does that make sense? And like I use the metaphor in therapy, like I don't, it might have been Nicole earlier saying it, like I do think, you know, as a human person, like we will navigate anxiety probably throughout our whole life in varying forms. And that's okay. It's a part of being human, but It's one thing for me to attach my identity to it. It's another thing where it's buckled up in the back seat and I know it's there. It's a part of my life, but it's not driving my life, I guess. I'm not overly identified with it. It doesn't take control of my life.

Yeah.

Can I say something there?

Yeah.

Because I actually, I don't think you would say, Rhett, oh, anger is always going to be a part of my life. Anger is going to just be there. I got to figure out how to be with him. so I actually don't think anxiety has to be a part of your life. I think that gets more into, well, fear is going to be a part of our life. Fear is there to protect me. Fear is there to say, oh, this road is really busy. Look both ways. Make sure I cross on the crosswalk. Like, and I think that might be semantics of how we hold that word. And I can hear that, like, there was a transition for you thinking about anxiety. But I think that's an important distinction because how we, how we have all started thinking about how you define anxiety isn't something that we would say has to be with us. I don't know. You guys, I want other people to speak to that, but I just, let.

Me say one thing. Yeah. I think I was thinking more like Lisa DeMoeur, who I really like, or we talk about Ethan Cross's book shift back here. The idea that good mental health is not the absence of depression or anxiety or having good mental health. health is one's ability to navigate emotions when they come apart through our lives. And so it's not that I think I want to hang on to anxiety in my life, but I want to know that I can still be in good mental health even though I have anxiety. It's what I choose to do with that anxiety, if that makes sense. And I think for a long time, I was just like, yeah, because anyways, that goes down a whole rabbit hole.

But no, I think that does make.

Sense to detach yourself from probably depends on what your pain cycle.

Yeah.

As well, because, like Megan, your, your anger example, we don't talk about it in the same way. And I appreciate your point on that because I think it, it goes back to How easy it is for us to pick that up and identify or speak about it in a disempowering way. And if anger is a part of your pain cycle, we know that our pain cycle doesn't, we don't eradicate it from our lives. We do get better at working with it.

Right.

And if we're diligent about that, which I appreciate as well.

No, I think that's a that helps me that you're articulating the point. better than I did that it's not like my struggle to withdraw and disengage is never going away. Like that. That is always going to be in the back. Unfortunately, like that is going to be with me. But it's. I think to what you're saying is, like, I can choose.

Yeah.

What to do with that anger or with my withdrawal or in this case, I can choose what to do when anxiety does show up. and that's the exciting part.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Did you have more to say about that, Rhett, or were you.

No, no, I think that's good. I think I. I guess it's.

It's.

That's a whole other conversation. You know, I think part of being human is that we struggle in life, and we'll have anxiety and depression at different times, but then that's a whole other thing to attach your identity to it and you just see it. so much more, especially in a lot of the youth culture that I work with, where it's kind of cool to say that you have anxiety. And if you don't, you can be ostracized from your community a little bit on campus. And I didn't see that coming 10 years ago or 15 years ago.

So it, it's really interesting around, like, when I was with the research around, like, where if you say you have a disease, it becomes very trendy and, like, you. You embody that disease.

I felt.

I just listened. I mean, oh, it's Charlie Lance.

Go ahead. No, I. Tanner, go with it.

I know you want to talk. I just. I just listened.

I'm not gonna name the podcast because I don't know if you're allowed to do that, but I just listened to. Can I just say the name of the podcast?

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So there's a podcast called hysterical. And I don't know if you've listened to it or not, but it hits on this very idea, Lance. It's about these girls in upstate New York or somewhere in New York, and they all started to develop tics, like as in Tourette's. And there was only like 16 or 17 of them, and there was no like medical explanation for why this was the case. And they were like, some of them were super violent and some of them, so this whole podcast goes into like the history of hysteria and talks about what it meant. like historically and some of those kinds of ideas. And I think we see something similar with anxiety on some levels. And so in my mind, when I think about some of these misconceptions, I tend to think that I don't, when someone comes in and says that they struggle with anxiety, my first thought is really which might sound not great as a therapist, but I think that on some levels, I think when you've experienced genuine anxiety is one thing versus when you experience common stressors. or when you experience just emotional dysregulation or when you experience just being stressed out. And I don't think we live in a culture kind of like you were saying, Rhett. I don't think we, we don't spend enough time teaching people how to handle their emotions in a healthy way, rather than just being able to throw a label on something that disempowers them to be able to actually learn how to handle their emotions healthily. And so I think one of the misconceptions about anxiety is that all stressful emotion is anxiety. I don't know that that's the case. I don't know that all stress is anxious stress. I don't know that all fear is anxious fear. I don't know that all discomfortable feelings are anxious feelings. And so I think that's kind of become this like bucket that we've just thrown all emotional dysregulation into. And it's like, I don't know that that's the case. And I think that's doing things as far as how we're medicating it. I mean, there's just a whole lot of implications with what we're having and seeing there when it comes to some of those misconceptions.

But.

Come on, Tanner. Tanner's ready to go. And I, you know, while we're at the anxiety, we just did a, a training on our turning from anxiety groups. And while we were there, Terry was talking about how, um, anxiety isn't your friend. Would you mind, I don't know if we, I can't remember if we did it in this. part yet, but would you mind talking about this, Terry?

Yeah, I, we particularly in, in the therapeutic Community, we tend to, to try to be so embracing of any kind of emotion that we, we get way carried away, you know, and so I'm gonna I'm going to rag on internal family systems just a little bit.

Yes.

You know, the, the idea.

Take them down, Terry.

You know, Richard Schwartz has a lot of good ideas. I understand what he was trying to do, but, you know, internal family system is just a, is not systemic. It's basically a reorganized psychoanalytic Theory and, and Freudian psychoanalytic Theory, by the way, and, but. the twist that he tries to make on it. Ian Freud said, you know, the id is one evil dude. It is not, it is messed up. Schwartz comes along and says, yeah, you're firefighters and all parts of your personality are good. They're all meant to try to take care of you. This is this idea that anxiety is somehow your friend. That's the current source of what's going on. I can tell you anxiety is not your friend. It disables you. It tricks your brain into all sorts of issues. It's like saying drinking too much is your friend. These crazy ideas that our emotions are, they can't be bad, they're actually good. this is, you know, a decade and a half from now, people are going to go like, what? It is. It just. It's just a little crazy when you start separating it out. Not all parts of your personality, not all parts of your coping are to your benefit. They are. dangerous things that get you in a lot of trouble. But more importantly, they are actively destroying not only your identity or your sense of safety or both. They get into relationships where you're actively destroying somebody else's identity, sense of safety, or both. That is toxic and it's bad. And so in restoration therapy, I'm very proud to say, I'm saying we're naming things as bad. You know, we're not afraid to say there are some things that are bad for you and you shouldn't do it.

Say something else about getting into relationships. What do you like?

In the discussion?

Well, any, anytime, anytime I'm emotionally dysregulated and start coping. Yeah, I am just, I am by definition, I can tell you, because I'm the guy that wrote the definitions, right? is by definition, I am injuring love and trustworthiness. That is the definition of coping out of my pain. There is nothing good that comes from blaming. There is nothing good from shaming yourself, nothing good from over controlling and destroying relationships by getting out of your lane. There's nothing good about withdrawing. We to try to say otherwise, disrespects the idea of love and trust, which form the basis of all identity and sense of safety. So, yeah, I don't know if you want to hear more.

Well, no, I was just wondering in particular to anxiety as a coping behavior, if you've noticed or any of you have in your work with couples or in relationships, if anxiety takes on a particular dynamic in couples work or in relationships or impacting the relationship. That may have, that may be different than, you know, just thinking about coping behavior being destructive in general. I just, I was just thinking about anxiety in particular.

Anxiety is so toxic. I mean, imagine being hyped up on drugs or not being able to put.

Your.

Computer game down or your iPhone down or something of that nature, anything that starts impeding my access into relationships. This is the same function of what the rumination around anxiety does. I can't be present with you because I'm here. I'm locked in my brain. and I'm catastrophizing 14 different things in my head, including you. And so I can't be present in the relationship and I'm certainly not present to the relationship with myself.

Yeah, I was just thinking it has a, at least in family systems theory, and I was thinking about the work of like Edwin Friedman and stuff, but just we talk about anxiety being like a virus, like contagious a lot, and it has an it. Sometimes when I'm working with couples, it feels different. It's like picked up on in a way that maybe some other coping behaviors aren't in a way that can be hard to unravel and kind of see. It just has a different quality to it that I've just noticed here, I think, a lot more recently. Sorry.

Yeah.

What I see with couples, if there's one partner that's primarily anxious, you see that cycle play out and that their partner becomes the tool for regulation. I mean, we can call that co-regulation but it's essentially I get to use you to help me regulate. So that often looks like I take up most of the air in the relationship. I'm the one whose problems get talked about. full length, 30 minutes of venting. And then there's no space left for me because, well, we've got to get the kids to bed or whatever.

Right.

But the. In the partnership where there's an anxious person, I can see it playing out the way Terry was describing it. Someone's in their head, not present at all, checked out, avoiding gaming or doing something else, or just perpetually planning their life. or they're overly present with their partner and using them up so that I can get my, I'll call it my hit of regulation because thank you, you just, I have to get this out. I, you need to listen to me and make me feel better about myself for five minutes.

Right. And then I'll go right back into that same dialogue again and talk about it.

I will, I will go back to it in my head once you're gone or I'll feel a little better until I go back to work and I'm still dealing with the same anxiety that I deal with. the next day, it's not actually functioning. So you get that dynamic where that person, the other party gets squeezed and they have their own coping, right? They're gonna do that forms the cycle, which we could talk about. But I see anxiety play out a lot in that dynamic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the big thing for me when I was doing the reading for my dissertation and stuff was just recognizing the damage that we've done in therapy. That, like, where we have spent session after session, after session, talking about someone's anxiety and what's going on with their anxiety and going over and over and over again about their anxiety, causing more anxiety and. And not really alleviating the anxiety. I read this once. study that talked about that Bob Newhart was right.

Stop.

He said, stop it.

Stop it.

And we do not. This idea around regression and all this other stuff, like, we're not gonna do that because that'll be the argument that you'd be. I'm sure there's probably people listening to this that are saying, well, if you don't think about it, then they're going to be regressing these thoughts and then things are going to go sideways.

Well.

This, the research is showing that if you stop thinking about the thing that's making you crazy, you become less crazy. And I, I think I would like to move our conversation because I think we could talk about the problem forever. But what we're most excited about is what we're discovering in the therapy room around stop, turn, slow, the use of mindfulness, how the four steps flows into shifting ourselves from this person that's identifying ourselves with our coping behavior to recognizing who we really are. And I just like to be able to allow each person to maybe talk about what they're finding to be powerful in the therapy room as they use restoration therapy to help people that are anxious. who would like to start us?

I think Nicole is looking like she's got something.

I think Nicole too.

I was, yeah.

I mean, one thing that's been amazing to me both personally and, as a therapist is how much getting on your feet and, taking a physical posture against whatever that ruminating thought is. and the tenaciousness and the repetition that you have to have, which we touched on a little bit earlier. I forget who said it, but if you've got a hundred intrusive thoughts or room, you know, entries of rumination, you've got to be tenaciously getting that after that 101 times. And maybe that came up in the last turning from anxiety training, but. I think that would be my biggest takeaway, which would be consistent through the four steps and through stop, turn, slow. It's just we got to get on our feet and take a physical posture.

Yes, stand them up.

Stand them up, even if you don't know what you're going to do.

And Nicole, I can imagine you getting really tenacious with this.

Yeah.

Because I know what it takes for myself. I I if this is not an easy plant to uproot, so, you know, we. I I know what it takes for myself, thank goodness.

And.

And so I want to give that same gift. Give the opportunity for my clients to give themselves that gift. I'll say it that way.

Megan, this thing really wants to talk to you. I can see your face keeps lighting up.

The Zoom has highlighted me. I would say I really think there is a lot of movement when we give our clients the ability to focus. on one thing. And I think the index card intervention that we do at the Turning from Anxiety Retreat, and subsequently I just did one today with a client, is so powerful and there are so many interventions within that intervention. Being able to label on five seven, 10 index cards. Here are the things that I'm anxious about right now. And then the ability, the moment where they get to go and decide what they're not going to work on is almost my favorite part because you can see the prioritization and almost like we can say, oh, we can put this on the shelf. This is, I need to ruminate about this. And they actually have really interesting thoughts about this. You did this, Lance. Two days ago when we were in Georgia, like you're like, yeah.

Every time I do this stupid intervention.

It.

Was pretty intense. But the part before you started crying, the part where you went, you,'re calling.

Me out right now.

I am, yep. The part before that, that I loved was you looking at each one and saying, you know what? This one's gonna be okay. I'm gonna move that one over here. This one, I know what I have to do. I'm gonna work that one out. This one's actually not coming up for a couple, like, whatever it was. And every time I do this with a client, they. They do the same thing, but then they say, this one's rising to the top. I want to work on this one. And I love that so much because anxiety. gets anxious about one thing, but then it has this weird way of getting anxious about everything. I have a coaching client that wants to work on a specific thing. She has a specific goal, but when I go towards it with her, she's like, well, but my kids and my career, and it gets really big. And that's, I think it's anxiety's tricky way of avoidance, weirdly. I'm seeing that as an avoidance. behavior, because if there's so many things to avoid, then I don't really have to deal with anything. So I won't keep going about this, but just the ability to focus on a thing and regulate on that is so exciting to me.

Absolutely. And by the way, Rhett is writing this index card intervention up for the substack. So if you haven't seen seen it, it's going to be on the Substack really soon. It should probably be up before this podcast, I imagine.

Yeah, I used that on Friday, actually, too, in session. And the person said to me, oh, wow, everything looks so small down there on the floor. I'm going to have to do more research. I feel like I picked up some piece of it from this old book. things might go terribly, horribly wrong by Dufresne and Kelly Wilson. They have a lot of, like, anxiety, tangible exercises. And I feel like back in the day when I first used it, there might have been some inference from them about, like, just trying to, like, organize stuff to one thing. But I. I agree with both of you, and I'm not trying to copy both Nicole and Megan, but, like, the having a client focus on one thing for me in the last probably like six months. And then this is where I love Paul, the Apostle Paul, more and more and more, you know, where, and we talk about a lot, 4-6-7-8-9 he's talking about anxiety, but he talks about like meditating on the truth and then gotten practice that he says, like, practicing. So I just trying to get a client to focus on one thing and then to practice it in the room to like walk, to kind of feel it in their body as they're walking through some things. And then I'm pretty prescriptive too. Like, I want you to go out and do it this week. Like, this is what I want you to do this week. I want you to go out and observe yourself and to experiment with change and try some things on around just that one thing. and just simply noticed, which I've, I don't know, I've kind of come back to that. And Terry, it might have been at the summit. I think it was before then, but there was a phrase you used a lot about, taking a stance, a position in your life. And that's just, I think about that a lot. And I use that in the room a lot, like getting a person, like you have the ability to take a position in your life right now to take this stance, whether you believe it or not. and to try something different. And, and I keep going back to maybe I am just a one trick pony and that's all that I need to be like, this is all I got to do to get clients to move.

And.

I don't know, everything else is kind of falling away and just focusing on one thing and getting into practice is where I'm kind of hanging my hat at the moment and where I see the most change in my life and in my people I work with.

So, that's good.

What would you say, Terry or Tanner?

Go ahead.

I think, I think just kind of to reiterate a lot of what people are saying, but there's in, in recently, and as this has all kind of evolved since these anxiety intensifies of, oops, sorry to almost drop my computer, the two things that I keep coming back to are these ideas of mindfulness and the idea of really clarifying and making sure that it's super, super clear around what control they do have. have, right? So playing into the idea of empowerment rather than disempowerment, which I think is the implicit message that comes with a lot of anxious thoughts. And for some reason right now, I'm really stuck on this idea of like swimming and the metaphor of swimming. And I'm using that with a lot of clients. And I've gotten to where I talked to them about how, like, do you know how to swim? And if you know how to swim, you've probably never drowned before. Or if you have, you've at least done enough and something's kind of automatically kicked in. uh, and I talked to them about how there's four different strokes when you swim, right? So there's breast stroke, freestyle, butterfly and back. And so we spend the majority of our time right now developing their four strokes. Um, so what are your four strokes? And I don't care what your strokes are. You get to make a decision about what they are. Is it journaling? Is it mindfulness? Is it breathing? Is it, exercise? Is it moving your butt? Whatever it is, let's come up with your four strokes. Uh, and then let's get really good at practicing your four strokes. because what we want to do is we want to prevent you from drowning. So I kind of just play into that metaphor, but I may give you focus around those four things because I think that's the other thing that we see happening is when people get into these anxious moments, they start wanting to try everything and then end up doing nothing. And I think that that can be a really disempowering, unmotivating, overwhelming experience. And so, and then what ends up happening is once we've kind of gotten those things developed, after doing them in the sessions and they start having conversations, right? Cause they'll try to pull us into talking about their anxiety, those kinds of things. I'll say, boop, you're kind of drowning. I need you to tell me what stroke you want. And then they'll say, okay, fine, a gizzly journal, great. And then I grab their journal and we journal and we like pull it into the moment when it starts happening in the context of the actual session of the actual session. And that seems to be making quite a bit of a difference there. And then the other is the idea of mindfulness. which, I mean, we've all done some research there. We've all kind of studied those kinds of things.

We don't have our doctorate in mindfulness.

Well, I don't either. But a lot of people think that mindfulness is passive. I tend to take the perspective that mindfulness is much more active. It becomes an actual practice that we should be implementing into our lives that sometimes I don't know that people realize. And so we kind of throw that word around, like, you just need to practice. mindfulness. You need to be more mindful or you need to bubble. And I think people, I think that just goes straight over their heads. And so when we do things like pipe cleaners or I've been doing a lot of watercolor lately just because I'm drawn to that medium. When we do even like physical representations, grounding objects using whether it's jewelry or rocks, those kinds of things, that has proven to be a really beneficial thing. Or I'm kind of seeing that be powerful as well because they can actually use the practices rather than just thinking about it as like a state of mind. and I think you combine all of that, like, let me land this plane. You combine all of those things to tap into the truths, right? This is where it connects to the four steps for me is because my whole goal is I want them to be able to know how to Target their anxiety, but I also want them to be more grounded in truth and to be able to live out of that place. And I think that's part of what the intention of any of these interventions, whether it's mindfulness or whatever it is that we're talking about the index cards, our goal is to get them back into that place of truth so that they feel empowered to continue to live out of that place rather than out of place of pain. And so for me, that's how those all kind of work together on some levels is great. Let's do this thing to get us back here so that you can feel your sense of empowerment and that this anxiety no longer has control over your life because it never did. So let's help you get back to that place of being grounded. on a more consistent basis.

It's so good.

So we're like landed the plane at a swimming pool.

It seems like Captain Sully, if you're familiar with some of those things. Yeah, see, it's. It's all just one. One big. One big world.

Yep.

Great.

My butterflies. Not so good, Terry.

You know, if we believe that anxiety is what you do and not what you feel, then here's the corollary to that. That means that anxiety is your choice. You know, you may not have a choice on whether anxiety comes on you, but from there on out, it's your choice what you do with that anxiety. becomes essential. I, you know, and so, you know, what, what I've had a lot of luck with is the stops, turns slow and just teaching my clients to be Relentless and intolerant of their anxiety is saying, this is, this is something that you are ruminating with. You have to It's almost like the language of sobriety. Do what you need to do to resist this framework. But stop, turn, slow really is this technique of slamming the brakes down on it where you call it out, you call out the source, you do some physiological breathing, you identify at least a central idea of the empowered position, Rhett. That's the idea of taking an empowered, authoritative voice on yourself, of your own identity, on a sense of safety, call that out, and then identify a next step and get your tail in gear doing it. You know, that's what that stop-turn-slow mechanism is about. And teaching clients is that you don't have the luxury to entertain your anxiety for 20 minutes or two days or two weeks or whatever it is. And you really, that sets the stage then of being intolerant of your pain cycle. So I think that that's, that's really.

A.

You know, an essential element in getting people to understand how I make a different choice at the point of impact. I think also, this next step idea is really key. Because once you consume the mental space of saying, I'm going, after I notify my brain that I'm going to go another direction, if I identify a next step that I know is an automatic winner for me in terms of dismantling the anxiety, this seems to be really key. I mean, this can be some physiological soothing thing, which I think that journaling does that for a lot of people. I think bilateral stimulation can do that for a lot of people. It can be a physiological thing that we do. It can be an organizing thing we do, like journaling again or thinking through, you know, who do I work with? What do I do? at this point, some repetitive activities are very calming to some people. They don't ruminate once they're doing the repetitive activity. That's much, much better, less damaging than actually doing the repetitive activity. But for me, more and more this keeps showing up is the next step. if I connect it to relationships, if I move them toward relationship, that number one connection and number two, what do I do when I connect? I'm going to say something nurturing.

This.

Relational connection of actually doing the relationship, not thinking about the relationship or explaining what I feel, but instead doing something nurturing, like, you know, sending a text to somebody like, hey, Megan, I, you know, what, what I want you to know is that you're so articulate and so helpful. I love your heart around the way you talk about Brady and, and Jason and, you know, when I, I say, you know, Nicole, this is a, this is a terrific idea that, that you had. And what if it's wonderful and, you know, the assistant. If I call those things out, that's actually nurturing them. And when I'm doing that, that's taking me out of my brain lock, stock and barrel, and into the relationship and using my brain to actually build the relationship. So I think that, you know, the idea of making the choice to say, I'm done with the anxious thoughts. I'm done with that ruminating. That's a really empowering position, but carrying it through to that next step has really been the most successful thing that I've done.

Yeah, I totally agree, Terry. I think this is where my mind was too when we were talking about the whole next step. I think gearing people up. I think Tanner, you're hitting on this as well, but the more that we can get people familiar with that next step, what it's like, how to do it, you know, how to express it, finding your flow, whatever it may be, makes a huge difference. And, you know, just thinking through, you know, if we're talking about anxiety as a coping, and we know that it is being driven by fear or one of those traps that are on the map, whether it's safety from an external or internal source, or if it's a sense of feeling unloved or in your identity from an external or internal source. For me, finding those activities that reinforce one's identity, reinforce one's sense of safety, makes a huge difference. I've been playing around with this thing with clients where I don't know if you guys got into Harry Potter at all.

Who's that now?

Yeah, I know. But in Harry Potter, there's this cool stone called the Sorcerer. It's the Sorcerer's Stone, like the first book, you know? And when you hold it, you can see your beloveds. And there's this quintessential scene where Harry's getting ready to face Voldemort. And before he goes to face Voldemort, he reaches into his pocket because he has the three... I'm going to ruin the book for everybody that's listening to this, sorry. But he has the three Deathly Hallows. He's got the Cloak, that. That hides him. And he has the wand that is all, like, super powerful. And then he's got this little Stone. I'm messing up with the stones called, but that Stone allows him to see those people that are with him, that. That are. That. That care so much about him. And he gets to see his. His. His mother and his father. and the recently departed Tonks and oh gosh, what's Tonks's husband's name? Lupin.

Yes.

And they're all around him and he has this phrase that he says with them. He's like, are you with me? And they look at him and they say, till the end. I love that part because he can see them, he knows they're there, and then he's able to drop the stone in the forest because now he knows. He's going to pick up the stone again. He has to go back to the stone. He knows they're with him. He's able to face his foe. And I think a lot of times when it comes to that sense of fear or worry or sense of unsafety, knowing that we're not alone and there are people that are with us, you know, that, that we so, so care about, you know, they may, they may not be alive, but they're, they're there in that Spirit realm of, you know, whether it's the Holy Spirit, you're, you know, I think of my grandfather sometimes in his laugh and, you know, or just thinking of my dad or even my wife. and just her presence with me as I go forward to deal with my task. All of a sudden, this fearful thing that I'm freaking me out with my anxiety, I'm able to engage.

Thanks for ruining the book. I'm actually reading it right now to my son, and I haven't gotten to that part yet, but that's okay.

Are you kidding me?

I read it in college, but I'm reading it to Brady right now. like, for the first time ever.

Wow.

So.

But no, the story is so good, and it gives me chills thinking about it. It makes me think about one of the things I help my clients with is how do you take your truths and trust that your truths will be true in the future? So we. You can claim the truth right now if you're feeling anxious, but we think working with someone who's fearful about giving birth.

Right?

There's something about that future of, well, who will be there in that moment? And that taking that concept of like, the people who are here for me now, they're gonna be waiting for me in that delivery room. And then we also think about, well, who else is gonna be there? And we bring in, you can think about, well, I'm gonna be there. Well, can you trust the you in the future who will be there? and what she can do, what she's empowered to do in that moment. So I think that just you describing that made me think about, man, that is so helpful in the moment going.

Into.

Your own Voldemort or.

Yeah.

The things that anxiety gives birth to. Whatever is in your future. Yeah. Probably a lot of parents. But just the idea of a future, right? Anxiety likes to think about the future and tell you it's. It's gonna be really bad, and I don't know.

Yes.

Good. Yeah.

So, man, this is such a great discussion. Rhett, what's going on in your. I I. Rhett, I can see in your heart. You're, like, in heaven right now, aren't you?

No, I. Yeah, this is, like, helpful. I was. Messaging Tanner and I was just saying, like, this is the importance of meeting and like being around people in a practicing model and group because it's the only way to like continue to expand the boundaries and push your own edges in terms of your own growth. And I'm sitting here listening to a lot of people talk and I'm like, oh, that's an interesting way to look at anxiety. I haven't thought about that. and I feel like I'm one who talks about anxiety a lot, but there's so many other, like, things that I just don't know about anxiety that is really helpful to, like, hear everybody's perspective. And again, I think it's just why I appreciate this community so much, because, you know, I'm, I'm convicted by the fact that we just, I'm going to speak for myself, but as a group, we just, as a community guy, just be, continue to be better therapists and do better and better work. And the only way to do that, I think, is to be around people. who also want to do that. And it's just so easy to coast the rest of your life as a therapist and not have to really grow or be a part of a community or do anything. And so I know I'm just thankful for all of you. And, you know, Terry, for you teaching us initially that anxiety is something that we do.

Yes.

That's had profound impact on, I know, all of our lives.

So I know Terry is definitely Terry is one of those people I dig in the room with me.

Yeah.

Cause he, he said he, he tells all of us, go be the best therapist in the world. And I, he really means it. He's not even kidding around. He's like, go be the best therapist in the world. Like not, there's no, no challenge. No, you go do that.

Yeah.

Well, Lance, if it's cool with you, I think this is a good place to end for tonight. I think there's a lot of good stuff that we've covered.

Yeah. Before we end, I wanted to name the resources that are, or do you want to just put them in the notes?

Well, we can do both.

Okay. So let's name, let's name the stuff that we have coming up. We have Megan has two things that I know of, right? You have the you have a turning from anxiety happening soon for women of faith.

Yes. And Julian. Yep.

And Julian.

Yeah.

San Diego County. And it's, I think, June 18th, two and a half day for women of faith. And there's still space.

So check that out. I'll be on the turning from anxiety website.

Yep.

And then you also have your restoration coaching where you have a track. for people that are specifically dealing with anxiety. We talked about this in the other one, but it's just good to name it now.

Yeah, it's a six-week or 12-week program, and it's weekly sessions with me and then homework and videos outside of that to really jump in deep and hammer out your anxiety, work on it.

Yes. Nicole, I know you have. I, I find your what if it's wonderful book to be absolutely amazing for helping with anxiety because I feel like you hit a lot of great things, like with awe, it's really powerful. So your savoring technique and there's a, there's a few other things that you hit on. But is there anything else you want us to know about?

No, that would be the main resource. I do have a Bible study.

A new breakout.

Daring Joy related to that, which is an element of anxiety in there. But, yeah. So that's called daring Joy. It's more of a group Workbook experience, but certainly can, can be tackled as an individual as well.

Which of those Bible characters do you think was carrying the most anxiety that you remember?

Probably Sarah.

Sarah.

Yeah.

It goes through six women in the Bible.

That's so cool.

Tanner, anything for you coming up that we should know about?

I don't think so. I'm just teaching classes and working intensives. That's pretty much it.

Okay. Well, you have a bunch of the Hideaway intensives. These are important for people to know about if you're a therapist. One here, Tanner is, what is your title for the Hideaway Foundation?

I think they call me the clinical director.

Clinical director, Tanner Hargrove. Dr. Tanner Hargrove. Not to be confused with Dr. Terry Hargrove.

Correct.

Even though we do share the initial, the same initials. Even the D. Both our initials are.

T-D-H. Oh, even the D. Wow.

Yeah.

Terry, do you have anything that you would like to tell us about that you have coming up?

You know, it's always something, you know, so I think that most of my work is in the thought process, but it does produce fruit every now and again. One of those is the mindful marriage with Ron and Nan Deal, they're the primary authors on that book. Basically, RT in a nutshell, Rhett is currently kind of working his way and feeling his way around the idea of putting down what the RT group has done in terms of anxiety into a book. I think for myself, You know, what I'm concentrating on primarily is.

To.

Refrain from teaching as much as I can on a full-time basis and, you know, spend more time encouraging people like you and your listeners and saying, you, can do this stuff.

So, yeah, by the way, mindful marriage, if you have not read it yet, you need to get it. It is such a great book. It's like, I I mean, I put it like, when it comes to marriage books, I call it the one. Right. I mean, there's, I think there's probably maybe one other one that might be in contention.

Of.

Oh, gosh, what's his name?

The.

We're not even gonna put. We're not gonna talk about him. I prefer Terry's book just because I. I prefer Terry's theology versus the other person's theology. That's on my mind when it comes to gender roles, but that's just me.

Well, I think we. You guys have probably said this on the podcast already, but. this came up at the turning from anxiety training we just did, Lance, people were saying, oh, I finally have a book that I can give to my clients that articulates the pain and peace cycle in a way. Or I finally have a book I can give to my friend.

Right?

Like that. This is that mindful marriage is a.

Book.

That is for everyone and anyone, and it's a great resource for the clinicians out there or coaches out there that are looking for material that people can just immediately apply.

Yes. I like five days to a new self as well. I think that's, that's a good one for, for the individuals. If you have a client that's not married, but, yeah, yeah. Rhett, do we have something coming up? I think we might.

We'Re tossing around the idea of doing an anxiety intensive for pastors.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're gonna be.

They're not anxious. They're fine.

Yeah. Start. Start with. Start from the top down where anxiety sometimes begins.

That's probably so.

Yeah, we'll keep everybody informed of that, but lots of exciting stuff. you know, and we'll put all this information, like, in the show notes, and that's it, man. I really. I really appreciate all of you. You all. You all mean a lot to me. Learn not just a ton from you about anxiety, but just my own personal life. So thanks for taking the time tonight. Thanks, Lance, for directing this craziness, man.

When you're in a room of so many amazing people, this is hard. I mean, I I feel like we could just hang out with any one of them, but to have the conglomeration and collaboration of this whole flow is so great. So I still love all you guys. And thank you so much for being on do that. So, yeah. Cheers, guys.

Everyone have a good night.

Thanks, y'all.

Thank you.

Take care.

Bye.