https://www.listennotes.com/e/f8c7aa306ce44b61be190e7fd66e452f

Lance, what's going on this morning?

Rhett, it's good to see you, my friend. How are we doing?

I'm good, good doing well, and I'm excited about our guest, Bisola. I pronounced that correct, right? Yes, yes, yes. So I thought I would start by, let's just share, I think it's cool, share the story how we got connected even, because people listening, they might be in the same spot and we're trying to meet new people in this community. Sharon, how that happened?

Yeah, so I did my master's at Texas Wesleyan in Fort Worth. My master's in marriage and family therapy. And I graduated in December 2024. So I'm like a new graduate, kind of trying to figure out getting into the career. And I love school. Like I thought I had the best master's program, the best experience. So I kind of just missed my professors and some of my classmates. So I went one of those days, just to visit, just to say hi. And I ran into Dr. Bishop. He actually hooded me during roping and hooding. So yeah, we had a great shout.

Out to Mike Bishop here. Talk about awesome guys.

No, yeah, for sure. So I ran into him. I was not expecting to see him at school that day. And he was like, you need to listen to RC dialogue. Like, like, this is going to help you. You're doing restoration therapy. You should listen to this. And so I said, okay, I listened to it on Apple podcast on the way home and I was like, oh my gosh, like this is great, but why is my supervisor not on this podcast? So during my internship, I interned at chosen counseling and consulting services, chosen counseling and coaching services with Dr. Tasha Cassar and she's an RT therapist and I was just like, I think she's so amazing. I learned so much from her. Like, why do they not know her? So I sent you guys an email and it was crazy. Like that night, I was like looking for all your information. I don't know. I think I emailed the practices because I couldn't find anything else. Yeah. And I nominated my supervisor to be on the podcast and I did not tell her. I just sent the email. And then like a few days later, I was like, well, I kind of did a thing. So, you might hear back. And then when you guys responded, I was so surprised that you all also mentioned that I should probably come on the podcast. I was not even expecting a response. I told her, I don't know, I just did it 'cause I think you're great and you need to be here. That's awesome.

No, yeah, I was, well, when you emailed, even before I thought about your supervisor, I'm like, let's have you on the podcast too. So I'm so glad you connected us to your supervisor. and she'll be on actually recording with her next week.

Yeah, Dr. Tasha coming on. It's gonna be great.

That'd be awesome. And then got you on today. I, you know, tell us a little bit about, because it was through TWU and your supervisor that you came into Restoration Therapy. So share a little bit about that journey. And, you know, I know we talked about this before we started recording a little bit, but, like, It sounds like you were one of the, like RT is what made it kind of click for you in terms of getting into the therapy world. So share kind of how this all happened for you. Yeah, so it'll be a little bit.

Of a backstory, but I'm originally from Nigeria, or rather my parents are from Nigeria. I was born here, but my childhood, I spent time going back and forth. And so if you know anything about West Africans, we are a doctor, lawyer, engineer, like that's just what you're supposed to do. My dad is a physician, so I went to undergrad just thinking I'm also just gonna go to medical school. And I think my last semester, I was like, Dad, I'm not going to medical school. And he was kind of like, what do you mean? Oh, my gosh. But I was a psych major. I was like, I think I could be a therapist. And he didn't know what that meant. And I kind of didn't know what that meant. I was just looking for something to do that was not research because I knew I wanted to work with people. So by the grace of God, I kind of met someone at my, I went to Georgia State University in Atlanta. So I met a professor there who was an LMFT and a professor. And she kind of helped me with like my applications, but I kind of just jumped into it. And I think right before school started, I met a therapist, she was in solution focused narrative therapy with kids. So that was like my first exposure to therapy. I kind of just watched her and I was like, okay, like, Cool, this is different than what I thought therapy was gonna be, but that was, I didn't, I had no background, never had been to a therapist, didn't really know a lot about it. So when I got into school, I think it was Marriage and Family Therapy, that's like the 101 class that you take. Yeah. And in our textbook, there was a section on contextual family therapy, and then under it, it said something about restoration therapy. And I remember, I was kind of the one who liked all the theories 'cause I just didn't know, like I was so new. So I kind of liked everything, but contextual really stuck out to me. It just clicked, I think, being like the child of immigrants and then growing up kind of multicultural. Yeah. I was like, everything is within the context of like where we find ourselves and what information we're receiving about who we are. from the world, from our family. And then under it, I was okay, restoration therapy, pain and peace cycles. That's really cool. And I kind of like packed it away. So when I got to pre-practicum, Dr. Bishop was my pre-pract professor. He was like, yo, y'all have to pick a theory. And so he kind of asked everyone on the spot, like, what's your theory? And I was like, I was like contextual restoration. And I kind of just blurted it out because that one I remembered it so vividly from the 101 Marriage and Family Therapy class. But I kind of just picked it. He was like, you need to pick one and you need to get your book on the theory and start reading it. So I kind of blurted it out. And he kind of looked at me. He was like, you wanna do restoration? I was like, yeah. And he was like, okay, cool. Well, he was like, well, I'll help you. I kind of know Terry Hargrave. I was like, okay, I didn't know he really knows him. He was making it seem like he doesn't really know him.

Like that, but they go back.

Yeah, that he really knows him. And that was kind of it as I started reading. I think it was the first book that was released in 2011 with the Purple.

Yeah, the rest of the series. Yeah.

I read that one first. Now I know that one.

There you go.

First. But I read that one first. And I remember, like, within the first chapter, I started, like, weeping. because I think I started understanding myself from reading that which clicked for me because I was one of those who was kind of anxious, like how am I gonna be a good therapist if I've never gone to therapy? Now I have. If I've never gone to therapy, I'm from a culture where I don't know anything about therapy, like how am I gonna be able to do it? Because I kind of felt like I had a lot of things I needed to work on and reading the book, I started being able to I think do case conceptualization on my own self, in my own family, and then understanding my own pain. And it kind of just clicked. And I was like, I love this. I'm gonna do this. And it kind of just happened.

That's great. I feel like restoration therapy, it's kind of one of those therapies where you can instantly connect yourself to. I think that's one of the things that makes it so amazing. Yeah.

Do you think everybody, everyone recognizes their pain cycle? It's like, oh, now I get it.

Yeah.

I think for me as well, coming from a culture that is not familiar with therapy, and then I have this African dad who's a doctor and he's very clinical. I love that restoration therapy. I felt like it was enough science, but then it was enough theory. and so I remember I like sat down with my dad and I was like, hey, like I picked a model that I'm going to work with my clients and blah, blah, blah. And I kind of just like walked.

Him through the painting piece cycle.

And like, that's so awesome. Like, this is what's going on. And I think like in that class we had to do like a paper on our theory or something. And I like did the most. So my paper was like 10 pages long and it was just excellent. And I like sent it to my dad and I talked to him about it. And I remember he looked at me and he was like, Yeah, yeah, like you're really doing something. And that made me feel very.

I.

Think I have some pains around not being good enough, so it felt nice to feel some validation from him. It was enough science, like my dad was like, yes, yes, very sciencey, but the theory too, so I kind of love that as well. So it kind of just kind of all fell together.

That'S awesome. Did you get into the advances? Did you get to read that one?

I did. I read it all the way through. I'm kind of perusing it again now, actually.

Yeah. I'm curious, like, from a second or. Do you consider first generation or second generation? This is always the.

Born in New York, right? Raised in Alabama, but parents are.

Parents are. Yeah.

And then it's interesting because my older brother was born in Nigeria, but then I wasn't. Oh, so I think I'm like first and a half.

Okay.

As a one and a half generation, did you get to read the section that Meung Hammer wrote?

Yes, I did. Yeah.

How did. Tell, you know, I. I don't. Tell us about, like, how that connected with you and what you noticed around. this idea of like cultural identity and how this identity stuff. I find that very, yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I think like when I read that part, I was like, oh my gosh, yes, like someone gets it. Cause I think that's what I loved about restoration therapy is in terms of like the messages we're receiving from the pain. Yes, like a lot of it is like family of origin, but also like on the bigger context, when you move to a new country, what message are you receiving now about who you are? That's so different from where you are coming from. Or even, like, if we're talking systemically, like, also as a black person, there's, like, on systemic levels, there are a lot of messages that I'm receiving. So I think that's something that stuck out to me, is I felt like I could do restoration therapy with, like, someone from my village, and they would understand I could do it. in my native tongue. Like I could translate it in a way to my native tongue that would make sense to someone anywhere, anywhere in the world. In Africa, I just love that. I felt like it was so simple, simple, complex, but simple enough.

Yeah.

It could fit within the context of so many different backgrounds, the nuances of what shapes a person's life and their experience. So that resonated with me as well. And now in my practice, I work a lot with people like me, children of immigrants, first and second gen. And it's just been amazing to see them, like, just really understand and then being able to, like, even talk about their parents and their experiences in a pain and peace cycle. Like, if your grandma survived a Civil War, she probably has a lot of violations of safety, like, how to translate into the way that she behaves with you and then understanding their intentions and then how can you, knowing that their intention is not necessarily true, right? Or vice versa, whatever it is. How can you then behave in your own agency based on understanding that there are a lot of things that shaped their experiences? So it's been cool.

That's so awesome.

Yeah, it was, I was just, I got chills listening to you talk about it. So I was just thinking too, like, you know, from my context, how, how, It's an assumption taken for granted that people, like the idea of therapy is just what some people do, not everybody, but some people do. I didn't have to translate it to my dad when I was thinking about a profession or communicate that. And so I'm just thinking about you writing this paper and giving it to your dad. And I was wondering, too, Is that, you know, because obviously family of origin stuff comes up in work. And so as he's reading this paper about pain and peace cycle, does that lead to like further discussions between you two about upbringing and everything else? Does that like deepen the relationship in some ways?

I think restoration therapy has in a lot of ways like healed up some things for me. 'Cause obviously when you're in grad school, you have to go to therapy, like at least for some sessions. so I think, like, one, humbling myself to be a client, because sometimes we forget being a client is really hard, like, because, you know, we're the therapist, but it's really hard to be a client, too. So I think in, in my family, the pain and peace cycle, I was able to see, like, okay, I see my dad's pain cycle. I see my mom's pain cycle.

I see my brothers.

And then I think for one, it gave me more compassion towards them, especially like my parents. My brothers and I always have this discussion, like they literally like moved to a new country and like, so we could have a better life. And I think a lot of our experiences of them were based out of like their pains around like that move. But we're over here like they're just so mean and grumpy and they're slick and they're not nice. But I was able to see a lot of their pain and in recognizing their pain, instead of focusing on, okay, what I think my mom should be doing differently, what I think my dad should be doing differently, I had compassion for their pain. I could look at my pain and then self-regulate. So my relationship, I've always had a pretty cool relationship with my parents, but it's gotten so much better having learned restoration therapy. I think practicing it on myself, Dr. Bishop used to say, you should never do anything with your clients that you haven't done on yourself. He would say, you should never do that. So I would be doing my own restoration therapy. Where am I at in my pain cycle? What is going on? What is true? What can I do differently? And it's transformed the way my family interacts for sure.

Wow. You're like an ideal RT therapist.

Yeah, and you're echoing what Terry is really hammering home these days, which is if we are not doing this work personally, what are we doing then? If we're not walking the four steps, practicing the other interventions on our own lives, it's... So I'm glad to hear, I mean, it's really cool to hear you say how much that's deepened not only your to experience, but your family relationships. I love that.

Yeah, it's interesting. I went home for Memorial Day and we were having like a family discussion and we were just talking. And at the end of it, my mom tapped me and she was like, you,'re like really a professional. Wow, like I saw the way you kind of did that. I have two brothers, so I'm a middle child, right? so, you know, in, in every family, well, not every family, but in a lot of families, we have, like, the, the last born. He's a little. So he was kind of having some stuff going on, and we were kind of just talking about it, and I kind of used some RT, not to therapize them, but kind of just pointing out, like, hey, like, yeah, this is some pain. This is what you're doing, but what is true? Oh, my gosh. Like, we love you. We're here for you. And, yeah, my mom, after that, she was like, wow, like, Wow, I can see the fruits of your labor. I can see what you're doing and how that's even changing you. She's like, you've changed a lot, you know, since you learned to be a therapist. Since you've been doing this, you're really different. And I thank God, because I think that is the restoration and the transformation for sure.

Yeah, the restorer, right? That's awesome.

I Lance, I have so many questions, but I see your brain over there ticking away. So go ahead and ask her because I know you're, I know like you've been thinking about a lot of this stuff.

Well, so I do have a few thoughts, like number one, I mean we, we know that you, the dynamics you like to work are the, that mother-daughter dynamic and we've also, you're our first like associate we've had on the.

You.

Know, on the podcast, which to me is really exciting. So I'm debating between these two things. Maybe you could help us. Like, we could talk through kind of, you know, that, that Dynamic around helping, you know, the, the parent, um, child dyad, or we could kind of talk around, you know, any, any big things as an associate that are going on for you, um, that, that you found interesting or. you know, maybe thoughts, you know, I supervise a bunch of therapists over the years and I learned the most from supervising, I feel like, because they asked the best questions and they need to know them right now. But yeah, both too.

Yeah.

But I'll actually, I'm gonna go with, wait, I'm gonna jump in and ask, 'Cause before we're talking about the associate piece, I am really curious. When I first connected with you and then I was looking at your materials online, you're very active online. I've listened to you on some podcasts on Instagram. Your website's really beautiful.

It's really aesthetically... You guys gotta check it out.

Yeah, it's really inviting. I'll put that in the show notes. I think that's just one of the things they don't teach us in grad school is like once you get out and you're out in the world, like you have to run a business and market yourselves and you do all this studying. And so I am wondering like where that came from from you. Did you have good people in your life who helped point that? Is that just something innate inside of you that you're kind of like business-minded and knew what you had to do?

I think it is probably a little bit of both because I'm type a kind of high achiever. Some of that I think is natural. Some of that I think is like, I think it has to do with being an immigrant child. Like there's this whole like, yeah, we need to like make it happen basically. Like we moved here and we need to have something to show for it. But on one hand, I think because by the grace of God, my dad has a good profession, my mom is well, yes, I had the experience of an immigrant child, but I also was privileged in a lot of ways to where just privileged, school was provided for and all the things. So in as much as I have this hustler, I need to do all the things type of mentality, My parents definitely provided like a level of comfort for me to even be able to do that. So I think in grad school, I had the opportunity to just try things out. So the marketing, even Instagram, sometimes I'm like, I don't really like this anymore. But I'm fortunate enough I could just scratch it and stop if I wanted to and do it again. But I think it was partially my personality, some of that growing up, first and a half generation immigrant being encouraged to be that way. But also, I think being Gen Z and kind of seeing like, I think where everyone is all about like, you need to be making six figures at 22 years old, you need to be doing all the things, like everybody's traveling everywhere, like the groups the trips have to make it out of the group chat. So I was like, oh my goodness, I need to be able to make money and how do therapists make money? So I kind of started like just doing research, like I want to help people and I feel like this is more of a ministry anyways, so I don't think we do this because of money but we do need to be able to take care of ourselves. So I did a lot of like researching and reading and then my supervisor Dr. Tasha who you guys will meet she, I remember when I was working at her practice, she was like, you have to do your own billing. And I was like, Dr. Tasha, why? And she was like, because therapists don't know how to ask for their money and you need to learn it now. So she really like taught me, hey, this is how you make like a program if you want to do a group, this is how you make your curriculum, this is how you set this aside so you have more time on your hands and then you get paid for this. So she's like, her mind is amazing. Like she has great business ideas and she taught me a lot of how to to ask for your money as a therapist.

Good for you.

I was, you know, because you've mentioned Gen Z a couple times and I'm Gen X. What are you, Lance?

Gen X. Yeah.

And I know obviously there's differences in the generations and I'm curious from your perspective being in Gen Z, what do you notice about like the world of therapy or what do you think just from your own perspective might be different from where Lance and I sit, being Gen Xers, how we think about therapy and where the people you work with think about therapy.

It's so interesting because I think that right now it's really all about being authentic. Clients don't want to see therapists that are so stuffy and just have their notebook and always looking down, but just really showing up in the fullness of who who you are in the therapy room. But then I think what's interesting, especially being a younger professional, is like, how do you do that? But then also maintain professionalism. I'm trying to build my career and I still want to be taken seriously, even though I do want to show that, like, I'm super girly and I'm super bubbly and that's just kind of who I am. But then how do I maintain professionalism, I think, is is interesting. We're seeing that kind of shift. I remember one time, like, one of my friends was like, my therapist was, like, in the drive-thru while we were, while we were doing session. And I was like, that is not right. But, no, but a lot of times, she, I think some people are also like, well, we need to just keep it real, and we're humans, too. So it's interesting. Like, my colleagues and I are constantly, like, having these conversations, my younger colleagues about like what's appropriate, what's not appropriate, how do we maintain boundaries but still be ourselves. So I think it's a little bit different in that regard. I also think coaching is really popular right now and not that coaching is bad because I listened to Dr. Hargrave, I listened to their episode and he They talked, or I believe Sharon talked a lot about like why people like coaching because they're getting the directive. So, and I think that was a great point. Um, but then I also think we're in this kind of, how do we support clients without necessarily telling them what to do? Because I think Gen Z is very much like, we don't want people to tell us what to do. We want to live and thrive and you guys need to just hold space. But I personally believe that holding space doesn't necessarily help someone change. So we kind of need to do the work. So it's really interesting. It's really interesting having these conversations. Yeah.

I have noticed like a lot of the Gen Z, like, I am not really good with the technology stuff, but like the, you know, people doing online like messages and stuff like that, you know, even Red's put together some, like little, what are they called? Reels. Is it. Is that called a real one? It's short.

Well, now they can be, like, three minutes long, so. Is that a real, like, a video?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

But her stuff looks good. I just kind of put stuff out. Hers is thoughtful and has a good aesthetic to it and is pleasing, and it's. I really like it. But I. This idea you said. holding space doesn't necessarily change. Lance, I was just thinking too that if we go back to RT and Terry, it's this idea that insight alone is not gonna kill people's lives. It's that experiential like practice in people's lives. And that's, I think for Terry has shifted more and more over the years that we have to in the room help people change. And I mean, when you say like, yeah, holding space. What I hear you saying, too, like, that's not enough.

Right.

Do you have a favorite?

I don't know.

Intervention or way that you work in the room, you think, with the pain and peace cycle, the four steps and stuff that you, you've noticed is really helpful with clients, especially with the clients you're working with in Gen Z?

Yeah, I think that I end up doing a lot of re-parenting and then my clients are getting the corrective experience. So actually, there was a session one time where I kind of did.

The.

Pain side, like, I don't know, it was an interesting intervention where I had my client kind of list out the things that she believes about herself, like those nots.

We're talking hypothetically, right?

Yes, hypothetically, right. So they're like, they're her pains, but again, one thing I'm learning too is how do I help my clients chase their pain in a language that makes sense? So sometimes I might have to use like a different word, not necessarily pain, but kind of just like listing out those pains and then what is true or what you want instead. and I think sometimes we'll do that. And I can see the pain, like, kind of like swallowing them up, like, can't even be able to get to the truths. And so kind of, in a sense, like, coaching through that. Like, where are you feeling it in your body? Let's pause. How can we. How can we. I'm trying to find a good way of describing it hypothetically, right? Like, how can. How can we confront this pain in a way that's now productive instead of letting it go? So lots of just reparenting, coaching, and then providing the corrective experiences. I also think that one thing that's helpful is restoration therapy teaches therapists how to like repair rupture and therapeutic relationship. so I'm not, I wouldn't, I'm not like Carl's Roger. I'm very like, I'm kind of like a what you see is what you get. Very, I do the unconditional positive regard, but I'm just very real and authentic. So I think my clients appreciate that because we can kind of have the back and forth, but when that happens, there's rupture that's bound to happen. But I found that the repair has been so helpful for clients where I can say, well, look, this is where I was in my pain cycle. Like, this is how I experienced it. Tell me about your experience. Let me tell you what happened for me, what happened for you, and then being able to, like, work the pain and peace cycle that way. I think they are also able to see my Humanity.

Yeah. So that's been helpful that I. Terry always points that out, you know, it's like, the minute you've caused pain in relationship and the issues between the two of you, you have so much more work that you can do because you're the offender, right? So now we can come alongside one another and use our own pain and peace cycles and make sure we're working together with one another versus some outstanding pain in the room. that is the best thing to nurture, man. Yeah, it's awesome.

Well, and you obviously, you said you're not Carl Rogers, but I would imagine you make your clients feel pretty safe in the room that they can, they trust you to do that work.

Yeah, it's interesting because, and I think this is one thing I miss so much about being in school is just like recording and then having people watch you. and then just talking about that because I think one thing I used to, maybe it wasn't a little bit of an insecurity, but I just always felt like I'm just kind of like I'm a little bit spunky. You know, I'm an African, so we're like, we're a little bit aggressive and, or not, I don't know if aggressive is even the right word, but I definitely bring the like culture, I talk with my hands, I do all of that. so sometimes I, I used to worry about how clients would receive me. And then Dr. Bishop and even Dr. Tasha would be like, well, what is that in your pain cycle? Like, what is going on there? But it's been, it's been nice to, to see how when I just relax and focus on what's true about myself and, and in the fullness of who I am, I build great rapport with my clients, and I think they, like, appreciate that I'm a steward of trustworthiness and that I'm authentic, I'm honest, open, transparent, and still provide, like, and I'm still gonna love you through it, right? Like, I'm still, I'm not gonna reject you, but I'm also not gonna lie. We're also gonna be truthful. So it's been great. And I think that's one of the compliments I've got is that I build rapport very well, which was for me, just based on some of my own pains and. and how I show up sometimes.

Yeah. There's a major difference between being nice and being kind. You know, I think Carl Rogers probably lean too much on being nice. That would be my guess, you know? And I think being kind is to be willing to call something out to say, yeah, you definitely have a big thing in your teeth right now, and you need to clean it out, you know, like, that's. that's being kind. Being nice would be, we're not gonna say anything. I'm holding you. So you're a very kind therapist in appears, Bisola?

I think so, yeah. I will be honest, but kind.

What do you think with RT is maybe right now for you or just in general, the most challenging aspect of it? that you've kind of noticed yourself bumping up against that maybe you would go to your supervisor about or kind of talk through. Cause I know like, you know, I talk to Lance a lot and, you know, for me one of the most challenging things is just trying to be more experiential in the room. I'm always bumping up against that and I bump up against, you know, finding the pain cycle is easy, helping couples get through their truth is hard. So what are you, what are you noticing early on with RT is one of the bigger challenges.

Yeah.

So I I think similarly, I I remember one time I asked Dr. Tasha this question, and even now I'm always thinking about it is, okay, so how do I do the. The peace cycle? Like, I I know how to do the pain, but the truth is, is harder. And in that supervision, she kind of walked me through it, and it was super helpful. So I think now I have a better understanding of how to help my clients. get to the truth. But similarly, I think being more experiential, I really like doing a lot of like guided imagery and those things kind of re-parenting or like almost open chair. And so just doing more of that, especially I think working with immigrant clients or clients from my culture, they're kind of like, I'm supposed to do what? Close my eyes. Like even that is unsafe. so working on how do we create safety in the therapy room so that we can do some of these interventions, because some of them, they're like, no, I can't. Like, I'm not gonna close my eyes and do this imagery with you. So I think it's. It's definitely working on the truth, and I think even, like, the four steps, I think it's also helping clients, like, be faithful, even in doing. , the four steps, like, he's trustworthy in, in completing the four steps. If we do it like once, we're not going to see the change. Can we be faithful in committing to actually like seeing the process through? Um, I think with, which is sometimes hard, because I am, one time my supervisor used this example, like, if this is like a mountain, she's like, you want to get your clients over like the top of the mountain.

Like the peak, right?

But what if your client is just staying like in the little valley? And what if they don't even want to go over that yet? So I think also it's like learning how to like be with my client, but then also work them towards truth and then not getting in my own way when I'm like, I want to make this progress. That part too is hard.

That's super convicting. I was writing it down, helping clients be faithful to the four steps. Just coming back to that over and over again. Even when you feel like as a therapist, it's not working or it's not getting the traction that you hope for.

Yeah, most definitely.

Yeah, I love that response of it's just not, the four steps don't work. I mean, maybe we're not working them right. I think that's how do we get in there and really allow it to speak to the soul and to sing?

I've noticed over the last few days on your Instagram, we're in mental health awareness month, and I also know that you have a class that looks like coming up with the mother, expecting mothers, is that correct? So as Lance was kind of referencing earlier, we're curious about like, it seems like that's a big passion of yours. You even talk in your bio online just about your own relationship with your mom. And so if you're open to sharing more about just that piece of your practice and what, you know, how you're working with that now and what you're really excited about in terms of even using RT in it.

Yeah, I think that especially, like, mother daughters, because I. So I love working with women in particular, but mothers and daughters most, or especially, I think sometimes mothers forget how much of an impact they have on their children, which, which seems like. But they're just so busy. Like, moms have to do a lot, and I'm my mother's only daughter, so I'm the middle and then have an older brother and a little brother. So I think growing up, if you're the first daughter or the only daughter in an African household, there's, like, so much pressure. And then I was now in America. So I think my mom was doing a lot of, like, she just needs to be this, like, perfect Nigerian little girl, like. And when we go home, everyone can see that she knows the culture. And that was really challenging for me, coupled with, like, I think just. cultural things like things like colorism. So like amongst Black family systems or people of color, when like your mom is lighter skin than you and people make comments or your experience is different by way of just having a darker complexion, even though they're the same race. And then with so that happens on the societal level, but then even in the family. So that's what actually got me like curious. And I think one day I'll do a dissertation on kind of colorism and mother-daughter dyads. But that's what got me interested in working with mother-daughters because on one hand, I think mothers are able to provide a lot of protective factors to their daughters, like through nurturing, through loving, but then she's also a woman and we know that women experience a lot of marginalization, oppression, different things, right? And so I think Restoration therapy kind of hit home for me because I was able to see my mom's pain and how that shaped my pain too. And so a lot of this work, I think with expecting mothers is helping them kind of recognize their pain so that when they have their children, they can be almost good stewards of it so that they're not they're not perpetuating that or there's like spillage onto their children. Because I think in my case with my mom and I, and we've talked about this a lot and I've talked about it on podcast and she listens to all of them and she's also.

There was a little bit of, hi, B Solas mom. It's good to hear you.

I think there was a little bit of spillover. And I think if she had the awareness that she has now, obviously things would have been different. So I think it's a lot of calling mother's awareness to your pain is gonna show up in the way that you raise your daughter, your son. And so how can we like get a hold of that so that you can help this young person grow into a productive, amazing, wonderful, loving, kind adult? Because that's something that was a personal struggle for sure. So just working the pain and peace cycle that way.

There's that word, that phrase again you use, being a steward of our pain.

Yeah. There.

Yeah.

I listened to that sermon last night, by the way.

You did, by Frederick Beichner.

Yeah.

I think I need to listen to this again. So good.

That's interesting. Lance and I both have daughters.

And.

Obviously different contexts and everything. But I remember starting to see the world through my daughter's eyes and all the things that I was blind to. I have a son who's younger, but all the stuff that is a woman that she has to deal with in the context that I just was unaware of. You know, and so like it's really exciting to hear from me just to hear the work that you're passionate about doing. You know, I was thinking, man, I can't wait to read that dissertation. That's, that's like some fascinating work there. And what a gift too, to be able to like this ongoing work with your family and your mom. Yeah, I guess a lot of therapists who would not tell their parent like, hey, I'm on this podcast talking about some stuff. so, like, I love. I love that.

Yeah, I think it. I don't know. It's just been such a blessing, honestly. Like, if you had asked me as a little girl, would I be doing this? I would have said no, like. But it's been such a blessing watching the way it's changed, like, my family. And I think also, too, watching my parents, because now my dad, he's like, yeah, be so. She's a. She's a therapist, and she's, like, doing great, and he's just. so excited. Like, I think my parents went to London, like, last month or something, and my mom was like, your dad pulled up your psychology today, and he was just, like, telling everyone.

That's awesome.

And he's also, I think, educating his, his friends, his peers about, like, therapy psychology, because a lot of them just don't have the information. So I think I spend a lot of time with my friends who are also Nigerian or African kind of. explaining, like, what it is that I do, how is this useful? So it's. It's super exciting to see my dad, like, in his 60s, excited about this and telling people. He's even encouraged me, like, you need to, like, tap into something in Nigeria. Like, let's, like, bring this. And that's something I really want to do, is bring this to the continent. Like, how can you educate them on family systems and therapy and how it can be helpful? especially on a continent that suffered a lot of pain, right? Like a lot of pain. We all have, but a lot of pain. And I think there's a lot of amazing places where restoration therapy could be really helpful in that setting. And so, yeah, God's grace one day.

That's exciting.

Yeah.

What, as you think about, like, the work that you're describing and that you're passionate about and not only the personal work, but with your clients, but also with your family. I'm curious about how your faith shows up in that in terms of, you know, you earlier talked about the integration piece. And so I'm just curious if there's any theological principles, biblical stories, passages that you find yourself coming back to time and time again that informs the work that you do.

This is a good question, I think. So, interestingly enough, I grew up Christian, but when I started my Masters, I was, I just turned 22. Like, I, I turned 22, like, a month before, and I had just moved to DFW. So I think that was a trying time in the faith. Like, you're in your early 20s and you're starting a master's program and all the things. So for one, I think at that time, God almost arrested me with RT. Like, I was like, oh my God. Like, he like stopped me in my tracks because I don't think I was pursuing holiness with my whole heart. I don't think I was seeking him with my whole face. But I knew I was gonna be a therapist, I couldn't really do it by myself. So I remember like I would be in class like, oh my goodness, like I need to get in my word today. Like I need to pray like because I can't do this work just on my own. And so now, I think as I learned more about my pain, I also started seeing errors in the way that I learned about like Christ and who God is to me. Like I think I had a very like conditional understanding and one of my pastors always talks about how there's like God the Father, God's Savior, God's Lord. So God is Lord, that's God that convicts us, that helps us with our consecration. God is Savior. That's the easy part, right? When you confess with your mouth and believe it with your heart. But God is Father. I didn't realize that I really had a hard time accepting Him as God as Father, that He loves me, that the God who created the whole universe looks at me and calls me perfect and blessed and wonderful. And I think I didn't understand that. It was when I started learning about restoration therapy and I could kind of see it. Oh, because I don't know how much he loves me. Oh, my identity, it started like there was like revelation there. I think I became even more hungry to know more. So I saw like my devotion improve my participation and attendance of church, improve drastically. And it's just amazing now that I'm in another setting where I get to do more of the Christian counseling. But I think it has been almost just like we're always concerned about what God can do for us versus like who he is. So I think in learning restoration therapy, I've been really learning like he's so loving and he's so faithful. And like, even if that was all he ever offered, that would be enough. I also think that's how restoration therapy could be so impactful on like a continent where there's a lot of suffering, there are just not a lot of resources that we have hope in Jesus Christ that we can still, you know, be, we can still live, we can still have peace, regardless of the circumstance. And I think restoration therapy definitely offers that to our clients.

Such a rich resource. Love you.

It's like a, yeah, I was thinking about like a theological principle that, like a Trinitarian theological principle that a theologian was talking about, and that is in working with clients always keeping the idea that this is someone made in God's image, that this is a person who Jesus has saved. And this is a person who the Holy Spirit is now working their life. And if I can remember those things made in God's image, saved by God and the Holy Spirit at work in their life, really changes how I interact and see someone in the room. And I love I love that insight you have about Father and Lord and would you say savior?

Mm-.

Man, good stuff. Lance, it looks like you were like deep in thought over there. She was talking.

I was, I was, and like there's so much good stuff happening here. I think there's this like, you know, let's think about the the mom dynamic and that was part of the, the, and the as you were talking, I was also connecting with Brendan Manning's Abba's Child. I don't know if you've read that one before.

Heard of it, but not read it.

Yeah, it works really well with restoration therapy, but I was kind of thinking about connecting with God as not just this, I think we have these different views of God as you were talking and I was thinking about the same thing with you. read of like when we know that God is Father, like the Abba Father that is there that's caring for us. But I was also thinking like there's also these like maternal aspects of God that like how God nestles us under their wing and holds us close to their breast. And like I think it's just such a beautiful thing that So I was like, my brain was kind of thinking around like, what does this look like therapeutically in the reparative process? There's my half-baked mind.

Well, and with clients who maybe, depending on their relationship with a father or with a mother, and the role maybe we even play as therapists in the room is just an interesting dynamic.

Totally.

God, what are you most excited about right now, you think, about the work that you're doing? Because I know you have a lot of interests and I love your energy and I'm thinking, Lance, I don't know about you, I'm thinking, man, we need more of her involved in the RT levels doing stuff.

I like the fire, that's for sure. That Nigerian spirit, flow flow.

Oh, I will say that I think I'm very. I have, like, the energy. I think that comes with, like, youth and then just being really excited and then just, like, loving, loving this work. I really see it as Ministry right now. I have a lot of mother daughters, so I love, like, doing that, and I'm excited to just watch how that is going to change generations. and changed the relationships. I've seen how it's changed my relationship with my mom. I used to say, like, I don't want a daughter because I just, and now by the grace of God, I'm like, okay, well one day, like, I'll happily have a daughter. But it was a lot of pain there. So I'm excited for doing that. I think I'm also excited to just, like, tap into more into the restoration therapy community and getting more connected. because Dr. Bishop has always put that in my ear. Like he's like, you should like write an article on how you did this with first generation immigrants. Like he's always been saying that. So I'm looking forward to connecting more with Dr. Tasha. We worked with high achieving black women during restoration therapy and she kind of taught me how to apply the model to this population. So I do some of that now that away from her practice and I'm just excited to see what's in store, where I can support, where I can help and learn more. But I'm just happy to be here. Mostly.

You know, I was thinking about when I was at Fuller, when I went back for my MFT, so this would have been 2005, 2007, and I was doing I was in therapy, a guy named Dr. Ron Hammer there in Pasadena. And my life was, I was married and about to have a baby. And I don't know what he saw, but my life was not in the best place. And he told me to go home and read the book, Things Fall Apart by the Nigerian novelist, Chinua Achebe. How do you say that? Yeah, but you talking about being in a country where the resources maybe aren't there and suffering instantly brought me back to there was something in that book that my therapist thought I needed to read 20 years ago about this man's experience and suffering that connect with me. And I look at that book and that novel as one of the things that changed my life, helped me connect to my own pain. and stuff. And it's just funny, it's just ironic having a conversation with you and from where you're from and just like, oh, man, 25 years ago, 20 years ago, my therapist was like, you need to read this book. It will speak to you from a different cultural context. But all around this idea of like pain and when life just kind of falls apart on us. And thinking about that from a theological perspective, when people come in your room, from no matter what context, there's this, I don't know, inclusive language around.

Our.

Faith and Bible and Jesus and God that is really, I don't know, empowering that we can use with clients.

Wow.

Sorry, I'm preaching now. I don't want to preach, so I just.

What happened to you, Rhett, when you read things fall apart? Like, what was it? What was the part? Like, when you look back now and you think about young Rhett, well, I.

Just think I put things in perspective for me. I mean, it's just, it's a, I say simple tell and, like, this guy's kind of daily Journey through, through life and when things just fall apart in his life. And I, I don't, I don't have to ask my therapist what he actually meant. Maybe he was hoping I would get, but I think for me, it shifted my perspective to be, to have to be grateful for where I was and what I did have and not always be looking around and. also just maybe to connect more with my own pain. But also, I was trained to be a therapist and I think he wanted me to connect with other people's pain. But it's interesting how a little novel, you know, like Brennan Manning's book or things that you read can just shift for us, can help us shift as therapists and as clients. I'm always recommending books, you know, and sometimes books don't land with people because it's your something you like, but there are a handful of books that I'm like, no matter who reads it, I think they will get something from it. And that's one of them.

I haven't read it. I'm gonna throw it on my list.

Yeah. It's pretty good.

Are there any, yeah, are there any books for you right now, Priscilla, that you're like, really have impacted you or that you might recommend to others or clients? resources like that?

So, well, asides all my restoration books, 'cause I love them and I read them, I finished Mindful Marriage like earlier this year. I want to get, Monica's book is in my Amazon shopping cart.

So, oh good.

But I recently read Brene Brown Atlas of the Heart. And that's basically she just lists out a bunch of different emotions or words that to evoke emotion. But I think one thing that is just powerful about Restoration Therapy is helping people put language to the pain. So I think that book alone, like even when I was reading it, I was like, oh my gosh, and I was making the connections. And then there's a doc, she's a doctor and she's a pastor as well, doctor of social work. Anita Phillips. She has a book called the Garden Within. So she basically uses her expertise as a trauma therapist, also as a minister, and pulls out scripture basically talking about how like how you can cultivate the garden within, like using like analogies with plants in scripture, just talking about emotions and how how God designed us perfectly and how we can use his design for our own emotional regulation. So that's been a great book as well on Amazon that I, I think I read earlier this, earlier this year. Right now I have a lot of teens, so I am reading like a kind of just a teens parenting book because I'm not a parent. But when you're working with kids, you do have to do a little bit of parenting coaching, so. Yeah, but I would say those books I mentioned, like, by name, for sure, I recommend. And I.

Yeah. My favorite teenage book is the Teenage Brain by Francis Jensen.

I've heard it that way.

So good.

That's a good book. I. Tell me about this photo. Can you see it?

Yes. Oh, that's a good. story. Yes.

I saw it on your Instagram story and I'm always thinking about how clients use tools in their office and I noticed you post that and it caught my eye. Yes, so and it's laminated so just so people it shame or sorry blame shame control escape chaos with the words. So yeah, is there a story behind that?

Yeah, so when I started pre-practicum like at our school you have to choose mental so one of my mentors, she was practicing restoration therapy. She was like the only one in the whole counseling center. So I was like, will you be my mentor? And she was super artsy, so she had like all the restoration like worksheets and handouts that Dr. Bishop would give us and she laminated everything and she like made me like my own personal stash. So I have a bunch of them in my work bag. and it's just so sweet because I've had that since pre-prac like before I even started my practicum, before I did internship, and I still use it now with my clients and sometimes with myself when I'm just really dysregulated and I'm like, where are you at? Like what do you need to look at? But I keep that in my work that the other side has like a list of all the violations of love and like the violation of trust. Because sometimes my clients I'll have them, like, point to it, especially if it's like a child or a teen who's just having a hard time articulating that. But a lot of times it also just helps me stay organized. But it was really sweet because Dr. Bishop gave us all the materials and she laminated it and made it all fancy and put it on cardboard and did all the things.

Who was that supervisor?

Oh, she was actually a student at the time. She was like, I think she was, like, practicum. when I was in pre-pract so she took me under her wing. Yes.

That's awesome. Is she still practicing RT?

She is, she is, she is. Hopefully, maybe I'll, I need to text her and tell her.

Yeah, you need to send us her name too.

Yeah, what is her name? We'll call her out.

Rachel Hardy.

Rachel Hardy.

She's in the area.

Yeah, 'cause Michael Bishop's gonna join us too here pretty soon as well.

I can't wait to listen.

Let's get this TWU consortium up there involved.

Yeah. The Rams.

Lance, you, so Lance is finishing his last class on Thursday for his doctorate. And he walks, what day do you walk?

The 13th.

He graduates the same day as his first grade daughter.

Oh, right. Yeah.

When you hear this conversation about, like, grad school, like, I'm thinking, Lance, you just went through all that. Just being in those communities and stuff. Are you. Are you gonna miss that, Lance?

The. I mean, I feel like the thing that I won't like. The thing I love about what we have now is we have our community, and I think. It's been really neat. I mean, my cohort that I was a part of, I was the only guy in it and there's only two white people in the whole group. So I think that typical context that I live in is just mostly white people. So I think I'm going to really miss that part of the multicultural aspects, the different passions for the work they do and just the fact that they're all over the US. So yeah, I'm going to certainly miss that. So I'm going to have to figure out some ways to foster that connection of making sure I'm delving into different things. I think the other thing is just the fact that in the program they were always having us read things that I'd never thought to read. I have just books on top of books on top of books that that I've read through and really challenged my heart and my mind. Like, things I'm like, I just read this book last quarter called the Upgrade by Luan Brizendine, which is all about how women, when they go through menopause, like that there's, like, there's this grid stuff that happens inside of menopause as well. I'm like, what? I didn't know this. I thought menopause was, you know, so I think there's been this. deepening and thickening for me a lot for the whole program. So I'm definitely going to be missing that. And I'm so thankful for all my professors at Fuller who poured into me and hopefully we'll figure out some creative way to keep it going.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was just thinking of that and thinking you just finished your. You graduated December, you said. Was it December?

Yep. Yeah.

And I missed. I missed. The opportunity when you're just kind of in between classes to go sit down and have like a deep conversation around something that people just kind of understand because you're a part of that context. And one of the things I love about RT, and I think it's growing, especially in the last year as we've kind of gathered some forces with the summit and some other activities, and there's some big consult groups around the country is that there's an opportunity for all of us to kind of come together and to continue to grow and to learn and to contribute in meaningful ways. And I think one of the things Lance and I were super excited about having you on also is just, like you said, we hadn't had someone yet at the beginning of their practice, really. And there's so much that I feel like we can learn, you know, because it's easy to get stuck sitting in your office day in and day out and kind of just get in that Rut. And so like I'm most excited about connecting with people in the RT community over the years just at conferences or on the phone and just trying to grow and learn in ways that I have not probably been able to in a while. That's why we like hopping on a podcast, just being able to like, you know, you know, it's funny, my son who's my daughter just graduated high school, so she's leaving to college. So I'm in my own transition.

And we're praying for Rhett.

Yeah. I'm excited for her. She's going up to Gonzaga in Spokane, Washington. She's launching, which is what you do, but I'm gonna, it's gonna be a big transition for our household. And then my son's going into high school. But any time I talk about something, he calls me a boomer. And I'm like, I'm not a boomer. I'm a Gen Xer.

Yeah.

You know? Or they'll say, Dad, that's so Gen Z. and I'm not like, I'm not a Gen Z even, you know? They're like, you know, young, young. So, it's so good to catch you coming out of this program and all the stuff and the energy you have for things. Is there anything as we kind of wind down here that you want people listening to know or anything that's just kind of on your heart just to share with anybody? And we'll of course, link up all of your Instagram and your website and ways for people to connect with you?

Yeah, I think like a final or last few words would just be, I think when I moved to Texas and when I started my master's program, I didn't know how life-changing it was going to be really. I kind of took it out on faith, kind of just stepped out try to figure it out. And to God's grace and to his glory, it worked. So I would want people to just know that, well, one, God is still healing, providing restoration, because I really feel like I got that just going to school. Didn't know I was fine. Like, I met some people who are probably going to be my wedding and made the connections, and I feel like in a lot of ways, restoration therapy, like, saved my life. save my family. So I would just tell anyone, whether you're practicing therapy or not, just like you just never know where you're going to find your healing, where you're going to find your restoration, you just never know. And so I would always say just be open to the possibility that it could happen anywhere. Like it's never, you're really not done until you're Done. As long as you have breath, there's still an opportunity to learn, grow, thrive, to receive love, to give it, to be trustworthy, to experience trustworthiness. So yeah, that's kind of what happened for me and I want to... Jeez, that's good.

That line I wrote down earlier, you said, God arrested me with RT.

He did.

He did.

I'm like, there's a book title in there somewhere. Lance, when she said God is still healing, I was looking at you because I think, I, maybe close with this, I'm just, because I feel like you're the integration like expert. I love the stories that you like meditate on the Bible and the way God is still healing. Is there anything recently you've just been really like, when it comes to this idea of God is still healing and still working anything, you've been like thinking through or processing like a story or a passage.

I mean, I guess, you know, last night I'm walking in the neighborhood and just praying, and I turn, I felt kind of led to listen to that stewardship of pain sermon by Dr. Frederick Buchner. And, you know, I'm sitting there listening to it. I'm thinking about, like, what we do with our pain. And, you know, he talks about the story of, like, you know, the, the What's the woman's name and great expectations? Havenshaw or whatever. The person, they like live in their pain. Like they have this, like she was supposed to get married and the wedding didn't work and she's just sitting there with everything's just falling apart and she sits there with that tattered wedding dress and all of that. And I was thinking about my own pain and things I've been through in my own life. And, you know, I had a really close friend of mine , commit suicide about, four years ago. And, you know, I think about like, what am I, how do I deal with that pain? You know, what, what am I doing with it? And, you know, am I a good steward of the pain? Um, and, so I was thinking about that and, you know, just, just the way that, I think in Peter, he says, like, don't be surprised, you know, when, when you expect, don't be surprised when things go out of line and things don't work out for you, right? And I think I fall victim to that too often where I get surprised like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this happened. What? You know, and you know, and I feel like because of that surprise, I really miss out on the opportunity to allow for God's grace to really flow, to allow for you know, like Basila is talking, Basila is talking about there is that, you know, look out, your healing's out there. It's happening. And I think sometimes I lean in on just looking at the victim or the pain or they're just avoiding it altogether. And, you know, I really want to lean into just like Basila is talking about is how can I look for my healing and how can I be a good steward of my pain? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. That's kind of, no, I just, yeah.

And we had called Lance last night just to touch base about our conversation today and I was sharing some personal stuff. And so before I got the call, he's like, I want to pray for you. And I'm like, this is why I love the RT community.

Yeah.

You know, you've got people who are gifted therapists, but also just faithful to showing up in your life, you know, and bring in the presence of God into that.

So totally. Well, yeah. And I hope one thing I want to add is, look, the reason we're having this conversation is because Bisola was listening to the podcast and she emailed us. Okay. Yeah. We are not exclusive people. We don't put, like, we're not looking for the. We are, we are here because. We just want to talk and RT dialogue is just that. We are talking. We're not, we don't see ourselves as the experts. We are so blessed because everybody had something good to give to the RT community.

And we don't know everybody, which is awesome. There are people out there, I have no idea, but you get stuck in your little groups and you think you know everybody, but there is like, and our passion is for RT to continue to grow and to grow, as Terry says, not just grow big, but grow deep, deep roots.

Amen.

And so yeah, we'll be on with your mentor.

Dr. Tasha coming up.

She is so amazing.

And then Bishop and we'll keep this going. So well, thanks for joining us. We really appreciate your time and look forward to connecting with you in person.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Cheers.

Cheers. Bye.