Is Bluetooth Radiation Dangerous?

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Hey folks, welcome to this two part special edition of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast. I get so many questions about whether wearables and Bluetooth technologies and devices like the Fitbit and the Jawbone are actually healthy that I decided to dig a little bit for you. Now the first interview that you're about to hear is with Christian Smith, who is with a company that uses Bluetooth technology and you'll hear more about that during my interview with him. And the second part of this podcast is with Dr. Jack Cruz, a neurosurgeon who specializes, among other things, in EMF and Bluetooth technology and their effects on the human body. Now, just a quick clarification before we jump in. 1. When I interviewed Christian, I hadn't actually planned on doing anything other than releasing my interview with Christian. But because of a Facebook comment that I received from Jack in the days leading up to releasing the podcast with Christian, and you'll hear more about that in the podcast as well, I decided I wanted to give you a different perspective as well in this episode. So listen in to part one and part two and be sure to leave your thoughts, your comments and your feedback in the show show notes@bengreenfieldfitness.com Bluetooth because not only do I have plenty of resources there, but I'm sure you may have some thoughts, some feedback and some insight to bring to the table. And when you leave your comment over there@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Bluetooth, either myself or Jack or Christian will reply. So thanks for listening and enjoy the episode. Hey folks, it's Ben Greenfield. And as a self quantified biohacking nerd, or at least someone who's labeled as that by many folks, I think some people think that I walk around 24 7, constantly hooked up to wearable technologies, self quantifying everything I do from making coffee to walking on the treadmill to hugging my kids, and that is not entirely the truth because there are things that myself and you need to think about when it comes to Bluetooth and I get a lot of questions about electromagnetic frequencies and cell phones and wearables and Bluetooth and it seems like every day there's some new bracelet or piece of technology release that relies upon this technology of transmitting a signal. So in today's podcast, myself and my guest Christian Smith are going to talk a little bit about his perspectives on the health of Bluetooth. As the CEO of a company that relies quite a bit on Bluetooth technology and my perspectives and what I've found in my own search for that ultipal marriage between health, performance and productivity. So a little bit about Christian before I get in and ask him what he's found out so far in terms of what the FCC will allow in Bluetooth and what he's found out about the health of Bluetooth. Christian is the founder at a company called Phone Halo. And I actually first met Christian at a barbecue event down in Santa Barbara where he told me about this special device that he had created that would allow you to find your valuable belongings. A tiny little tracker that you could put on things like cell phones and keys and pretty much anything else that you lose. Or the Kindle that I recently left on an airplane, in which case I really wish that I that I had Christian's tracking device. Anyways, though, what phonehalo does is they publish mobile software that allows you to manage your valuable belongings by putting these, I believe they're GPS tracking devices on the actual objects that you want to track. And Christian has a long history of working in communication and technology and the use of these Bluetooth low energy tags that allow you to tag and track certain objects. So Christian will do a much better job, of course, explaining some of the more subtle nuances of what he does. But Christian, thanks so much for coming on the call, man.

Yeah, thanks so much, Ben, for having me. It's a fun thing to talk about. And like you said, I've misplaced so many things. It was just time to make a really simple app that was able to be there when our brains weren't. So yeah, that scenario of leaving something behind is something we love to help people, especially travelers.

The Lost car key app, right?

Yeah, Lost car keys. We recently just started doing bicycles. So we can attach a little tracker to the bottom of a bicycle seat and if it should get stolen or misplaced, we have a crowd GPS network. So we have about 5 million people that would help you find that lost thing when it's stolen. And all someone has to do is walk within about 100ft of your stolen bike and then you a GPS update of where bike is.

Wow, that's amazing. So in terms of this technology, these tracking devices, they're pretty small, right?

Yeah, it's not much Larger than the size of two quarters, just stacked on top of each other.

Right. And so you could theoretically attach this not only to a bicycle, but also to something like car keys or a cell phone, I suppose, even like a child.

Right? Yeah. We typically recommend that people track things without legs because when you drop them, then it's easy to go back and find them where most things with legs can run off afterwards. And it's a lot harder to really get the benefit. But it's just. It can slip or could slip into a wallet, it's so thin. Or it can just, you know, you can use a little sticker that it comes with to attach it to a computer or the back of a Kindle or a remote control.

What's the strangest thing that you've ever seen one of these used for?

Someone tethered them to their glasses, their reading glasses, because they constantly misplace them.

Well, I have these blue light blocker glasses that I wear that a lot of folks who are probably listening in have heard of before, you know, where you block the blue light and it keeps melatonin from getting suppressed before you go to bed at night. So I wear these blue light blockers. But it seems like once a week I'm wandering around the house shouting downstairs to my wife, where are my glasses? So, yeah, I could actually see that as being a useful use for this thing. So the actual device is called the tracker, right? T R A C, K R. Yes, that's correct.

And site, if people want to check it out, is thetracker.com okay, got it.

So obviously we're talking a little bit more about the health of these things and the health of Bluetooth technology in general in our chat today, and I'm curious for you, as the CEO of a company that relies upon Bluetooth technology as obviously a pretty integral part of its functioning and the use of Bluetooth technology in close proximity to the human body. What kind of things did you have to do and what kind of things did you learn from a health standpoint as a company utilizing Bluetooth technology? Were there regulations? Were people checking up on you to see what the signal that was being transmitted by your technology was releasing in relation to its effects on human health? What kind of things did you discover?

Yeah, so it was a really fascinating process. I mean, my co founder and I started the company in 2009. So we've been at this for quite some time, and we've been able to really do a lot of really great engineering and iterations. And through that whole process, we would come up with a design, have it manufactured in China, and then import it into the US for people to use. So during that process, we got to know a little bit about some of the FCC regulations. The FCC is the governing body of our government, the US Government that makes sure that all of these wireless gadgets are playing nicely with each other. Right? Because it'd be a real tragic thing to have your Bluetooth interfere with your TV and just start having, you know, your WI fi changing the channel when you're not paying attention or maybe interfering with maybe if you're on a call, on a household wireless phone call, to have those two fight each other. Right?

Those two frequencies fight each other. Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

So they do a really great job of governing that. And before you can import product, you have to. A Bluetooth product, you have to qualify that with the fcc. And one thing that the FCC governs is the output power of the devices. Right? They're not going to basically let you import a microwave and then, you know, give it to consumers, right? Something that could. Could damage them. The guidance that the FCC has set is around what's called a specific absorption rate. And they have, you know, it's the units there just to kind of give the audience it's watts per kilogram, the units there. So, you know, it's an amount of power coming through, you know, an amount of weight. And let's see. So it's about 1.6 watts per kilogram is the what, you know, that's the most that, you know, any cell phone or WI FI device can broadcast. And these Bluetooth devices are actually about a thousand times less than, you know, the specific absorption rate for a cell phone or, you know, a WI FI router.

So we're talking about a level of radiation that is. That's far less than a cell phone. I'm curious in terms of the transmission, right? So a cell phone, a cell phone does obviously constantly release a signal. I'm curious if a Bluetooth constantly releases a signal as well.

So the. Let's see. So why a Bluetooth signal is. It's kind of like imagine if, you know, you had a. If we had a tin can, right? Be stretched between our houses, and I'm talking on one side and you're talking on the other. WI FI or cell tower, they have a much higher data rate. You're going to get a much bigger, thicker string to get the clarity between our two tin cans, where Bluetooth is just a very thin string, There isn't much data that needs to be passed back and forth.

Right, got it. Okay. So there's not really a huge amount of data. There's not a huge amount of voice communication. So that frequency is lower in terms of the actual frequency spectrum that's used by Bluetooth.

So the frequency spectrum that's used by Bluetooth is the same as WI fi. So Bluetooth is at 2.4 gigahertz.

Okay.

Which is, it's a very high frequency, which is, you know, it's a, a better, more optimal frequency for the human body rather than having something much lower.

Okay, gotcha. So we've got some amount of radiation getting emitted by Bluetooth devices and to my understanding, they actually classify the radiation that's emitted by Bluetooth into different classes. Are you familiar with or did you come across those classes at all in any of the research that you were doing on Bluetooth?

Sure. So yeah, that's a good point to bring up is to make sure that the radiation that is happening at like a Fukushima or a Chernobyl, that's very different than the radiation that's emitted by an electromagnetic device.

Got it. So, you know, I know there's like the class one and that's like the really powerful high level Bluetooth radiation. And those transmit I believe like a football field or so and have a power of like a hundred milliwatts. And then class two is less powerful. I think that transmits like 10 meters around there. 10 meters? 10 yards. And that's about two and a half milliwatts. And then class three is like less than 10 meters. And I believe that's what a lot of these wearables are. And those are a transmission power of like 1 milliwatt. And I think that, that when you talk about those watts per kilogram, most of the Bluetooth devices that you're wearing like in or around your ear are somewhere in the range of like 0.2, 0.3 watts per kilogram. So there's a, there's a huge variety of actual radiation that's emitted by these things, depending on whether they're, they're class one, class two, or class three. When you were developing the devices that you were developing, did you have to go into anything in terms of like looking at the actual transmission class of say like a tracker versus say a wearable that you, you know, like a, like a tracking bracelet that, that's tracking activity and calories versus a tracking device you'd put on your, your bike or your glasses?

Yeah. There's a big difference between the classes of Bluetooth. So a Bluetooth Class 2 radio would be something that would be for streaming audio or potent. You know, it's the Bluetooth that would be used for primarily audio streaming. I can't think of really any other mass consumer applications that are using that Bluetooth Class 2 radio. But most of the wearables are using that Class 3 radio, that lowest power version. And a lot of times what we saw is that it's really important to have the lowest power on the device side, which makes, it just makes the transmission frequency that you're communicating from the cell phone to the device even less.

Okay, gotcha. Now, have you looked at all into like any studies that have been done on exposure to Bluetooth radiation with regards to health and any standards that are out there, like as far as like FCC standards or anything like that?

Yeah, it's so because the power amount is so low that there really isn't much that scientists have been able to study. There have been some studies on cell phones, but beyond that there really hasn't been much I've seen on Bluetooth.

I was only able to find one that specifically looked at the frequencies that would be similar to what you'd get from even a Bluetooth device that fits around your ear, which I believe is like a Class 3 transmitter. In that case with the Class 3 transmitters, I believe they're releasing like 0.2, 0.3 watts per kilogram. And in this study what they did is they took rats and they subjected rats to several different frequencies. And some of the frequencies were anywhere from 10 to 100 times lower than that, 0.23 watts per kilogram. They were like 0.012 to 0.002 watts per kilogram, like really low frequencies. I know that in that study they did find what's called leakage of the blood brain barrier at those really low frequencies. And that was after about two hours of exposure to the Bluetooth radiation. Obviously these are really tiny animals with really thin skulls, but they did show some, basically some death of brain cells with that, that, with that long term exposure to a level of radiation that was significantly less than cell phones. And a similar level of radiation is what you would find on say like a Bluetooth headset that you might be wearing around all day long. So you know, kind of my say.

The frequency because there's a big difference between power and frequency. Like frequency would just be the time scale at which something's happening, right? And I'll say the gigahertz. Is it like because Bluetooth is in gigahertz spectrum. So are you saying that a lower frequency in maybe megahertz or kilohertz in.

This case they were using. I'm looking at the actual hertz frequency on the study. And by the way, if you're listening in, you want to listen link to study, I'll put it in the show notes. But it's 915 MHz is what they were using as far as the actual frequency. And then the energy absorption rate, which I believe is that watts per kilogram measurement that varied from very, very low levels all the way up to, I believe at the highest, they use like 5 watts per kilogram. So they got kind of high as far as the upper level of that energy absorption rate. And so that was the frequency and the absorption rate that they use. Does that answer your question?

Oh, yeah. So if they're operating on a megahertz band, that's very different than what a Bluetooth radio would be operating on, because a Bluetooth radio would be in gigahertz, so that would be a thousand times. The wavelength is 1,000 times shorter.

So.

So which means, you know, those longer wavelengths, you know, don't. Might not pass as easily through, you.

Know, and a megahertz is a shorter wavelength than a gigahertz wavelength.

Correct? Yeah. So I guess that just that frequency probably has more of an effect on, you know, a cellular structure.

Interesting. So as far as the interpretation of a study like this, if they're using, if they're trying to simulate the biological effects of something like a cell phone or. Well, let's get really specific. Something like a Bluetooth, let's say a headset, and they're using a Transmission frequency of 915. Well, it's MHG. I'm not sure if that's millihertz or megahertz, but regardless, it's a smaller waveform than a gigahertz. Right. Or a tighter waveform.

Yeah, yeah. So that would be, you know, a hundred times longer. So imagine, I mean, if you were, you know, on a cellular level, like if you were taking, you know, a school bus versus a toy school bus, a Hot Wheels car. I mean, that's the kind of scale difference between those wavelengths.

Okay, gotcha. Interesting. So you would say that in a study like this, it would be more appropriate to use a gigahertz base frequency rather than a millihertz or a megahertz base frequency.

Yes. Yeah. If you wanted to say, you know, this is what the effect of, you know, Bluetooth would be. Right. Specifically. But I think that, you know, it, it does show that, yeah. That certain frequencies and exposure levels, I mean, basically, yeah, if you put a rat in a microwave, I think that its brain's gonna have problems.

Right, yeah. Which is why there's a warning label on every cell phone that's sold to keep it a certain distance from your ears. And that's also the reason that when you look at this, you pour through the research talking to you, the CEO of a company that relies upon Bluetooth technology and myself as a guy who's pretty immersed in the research in general, there's very, very little out there in terms of studies on humans with the actual frequencies that are being used on a lot of these devices, these wearables, et cetera. And so it's one of those things where for me personally, I'm simply careful with my level of exposure. And for example, I use a headset, but the headset that I use with my cell phone is an air tube headset. And I know they make these air tube headsets as a, like a, like a Bluetooth enabled that allows the actual Bluetooth part of it to be farther from your head as well as just like a wired cable that comes, you know, straight from your phone all the way up to your ear. And I actually use the wired version and like for my self quantification. I own this spendy health patch that will measure like perspiration and activity and respiration and heart rate variability and heart rate and all of these different variables. But I don't wear it all day long. I wear it for five minutes every morning. I just do like this check in every morning for five minutes and then I turn it off. And my home really doesn't have Bluetooth enabled appliances or anything like that. Just because I'm trying to, to play it safe. That's, that's my perspective at this point.

Yeah. So I guess you think about like, I think that's a really good point to bring up is, you know, it's distance. If you want to, you know, the biggest, one of the biggest driving factors in power, the power equation, which is you, you have your, I think it's kilograms times meters squared divided by seconds cubed. That's a watt. So if you look at that, if you decrease the amount of time, then that's going to have an effect on exposure. If you increase the distance then that also, you know, if you double the distance from, you know, a power source, then you're going to cut the power in by 25% or it will be 25% of the power.

Yeah, that's like a power. It's almost like a power density equation. Right. In terms of measuring radiation. So the higher the density of power, the more of a biological effect you'd expect to see reported. Like the closer that a power source is to the skin or the body or the brain. Yeah.

It's kind of like a balloon. Right. Like if you have very little air in the balloon, then the walls are going to be thicker. But if you blow that balloon up to double the size, then the walls are going to be much, much thinner. Like maybe four times thinner. If you double that.

Yeah. I found an interesting chart and I'll put a link to this chart in the show notes for folks who are listening in. That actually shows that like a power density curve. It shows that at 0.1 for a power density that brain waves are altered when exposed to a cell phone signal. And then if you jump up to like the, the range of like 1 to 2, you actually see a twofold increase in leukemia in adults who are exposed to that amount, that power density. And I think that's close to what you get from like holding your cell phone up to your ear all day long. 10 to 25 changes in the hippocampus of the brain. And then once you get up to 120, you get what's called a pathological change in the blood brain barrier, which is basically like, like neuronal cell death. So it's tough to say which devices. And I know a lot of these higher power densities are primarily coming from like cell phones. And I know WI fi routers are a big culprit as well. It's tough to say which devices are producing what amount of power density. But how easy is that to measure? Christian on like, you know, something like a Bluetooth device.

Sure. So like the power density on a cell phone is going to be about 1 watt. And if you look at like a WI fi router, it's going to be about the same, about around a watt. And then all of these Bluetooth low energy devices are, you know, about a thousand times less than that. Yeah. If you think about, like, if you want to, if you had a little health wearable attached to your body, just like a little measuring your heart rate and your activity, that device is going to have a thousand times less. If you hang out, if you have that on your wrist, then it's going to be an hour or, let's see, I'm trying to think what, how many seconds are in a Day, I think it's 36,000 or how many seconds in a day?

60 times 60 times 24. Right. So 3,600 times 24, I believe that would give you seconds. So it should be like what, 86,400?

Yes. So then, so if you have, you know, one second of, of exposure to a cell phone. Right. It's going to be like, you know, an entire day.

Oh, wow. That's a good, that's a good way to think about it. So one second of exposure or one entire day of exposure to the signal that you're getting from a Bluetooth device is similar to what you get from a single second on a cell phone. Yeah, I think that's like a, that's the power density comparison.

Yeah, that's the. Let's see. Or it'd be 86 seconds. So a minute of a cell phone.

Okay, so that'd be equivalent of a minute. Yeah. Interesting, interesting. So if you were to use this thing all day long, sleep with it, wear with it, you know, wear it around, whatever. It'd be like having a cell phone on your body for a minute. As far as the actual power density.

Exactly.

Interesting. So what do you personally do as far as your use of wearables? Do you wear them? Are you cautious? What's your take on things for wearables?

I find that I do a better job just kind of keeping track of simple routines. I have used FitBits, the Fitbit Zip. So it was great. I loved using that. But I haven't gotten too detailed into the whole quantified self movement. I do use a sleep tracking device.

Which one do you use?

Let's see, it's an app called. There's some really funny.

It's one of the ones that you put on your phone that goes underneath your pillow or underneath your mattress or next to you. Yes. Okay.

Gotcha is the app that I've been using and it does a great job. I mean all you need is the accelerometer on the phone and get some really high quality data.

The one that I generally recommend is called a Beddit and that is a Bluetooth enabled device. You don't wear it on your body, it goes underneath the sheet on your mattress. So there's a little less proximity to the measuring device itself. Plus allows you, if need be, to have your cell phone off in the bedroom. Even though I know a lot of people sleep with it in airplane mode anyways. I like that bedded device though. It seems to give it a pretty, pretty good and accurate amount of data compared to some of the other sleep tracking devices that I've used. That's actually what I have a lot of my clients use is they use this device. And then I've got like an online coaching platform where I can go and download at any given point in Excel spreadsheet that shows me like, sleep latency, sleep time, minutes up during the night, stuff like that. So it's kind of cool for me from a coaching standpoint. But that's pretty much the main form of self quantification you use, huh? Is sleep tracking?

Yes, yeah, sleep tracking and then just keeping a tally of the amount of pushups I do every day.

Right, right, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, the other. The other thing that I'm careful with as far as electronics is concerned, whether it's WI fi routers or computers or phones or Bluetooth or anything like that, is positive ion exposure. Just basically the fact that if you look at. If you look at positive ions or electrically charged atoms that are positive, that a lot of these electrical devices churn out. They can disrupt the actual electrochemical balance in terms of your membrane potential, your cell membrane potential, which is supposed to be at like 70 to 80 millivolts. So one of the things that I try and get exposed to is negative ions. And that's what you would get if you were doing like earthing, grounding, walking in the forest, breathing deeply. Well, next to a waterfall or on the beach near water, that type of thing. So that's another thing that I do quite a bit of is I try and step away from my computer, phone, et cetera, and just get either outside or somewhere where I can breathe in a high amount of negative ions.

Yeah, I think that I do a lot of surfing, so there are lots of ions in the ocean. And I think walking around with bare feet or just running around outside is so key. I usually find that somewhere in my daily path, I'll walk outside and go sit in the hammock and relax or do something like that, which is. It's always good to have those kinds of rituals, right?

Yeah, absolutely. So what I'd be curious about, if you are sitting back listening to Christian and I talk and you've come across research yourself or you're aware of things that we haven't brought to the table. As far as some of the things to consider when it comes to Bluetooth, the power, or what's called the class of the transmission device that you're using, or anything else, when it comes to Bluetooth radiation, whether or not it is dangerous or it isn't dangerous. Leave your comments over on the show notes where you downloaded this particular episode over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com and let us know what you think and what it is that you've personally found. I plan on sticking to my protocol of being very careful with long term exposure and also making sure that if I am going to use something, it's one of these Class 3 transmitters which it turns out that wearables are Christian. Anything else that you wanted to bring to the discussion today?

Yeah, I think it's been really interesting to take a look at and explore some of these, you know, some of the capabilities of these devices. And you know, it's as, you know, we kind of discussed, I think it's really helpful to put everything into kind of the right scale. Especially with all of this kind of engineering data. It's sometimes easy to see some pretty extreme results. Right. Like you mentioned at the, at that like, you know, 25 watts level, you know, that really bad things, you know, are happening to certain things. But it's also, you know, helpful to kind of see, you know, what is the, you know, that some of these effects are just negligible and our bodies are doing a great job dealing with them.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

With these Bluetooth low energy devices, I think that. There really isn't much effect that it has on a human body.

Right. And then the other thing to take into account it sounds to me like is the actual wavelength used in the study, not just the power, but the ability of the wavelength itself to be able to penetrate human tissue. So a gigahertz frequency versus a millihertz or a megahertz frequency because for example, like that study that I brought up that is off cited when it comes to cell phone or Bluetooth radiation, sounds like it's not even using a signal that is similar to what we'd get from a wearable, for example. So I think that's another important thing to consider is look at the study and see if they're using the same type of signals that a device would be using.

And when you look at the higher frequency signals, those, you know, those will be the, you know, the World Health Organization did a study on, you know, exposure levels to these types of electromagnetic fields. And when you're operating in that really high spectrum in the gigahertz, then those, those radio waves are often just absorbed by the skin. And at the, you know, epidemic kind of at the epidermal level, the body. Right. They don't actually really penetrate as much as you know, something that's a lower frequency in the kind of the megahertz level.

Yeah. Interesting. All right, well, cool. And by the way, I've got one. One last question for you. Just kind of a random one off. But as far as phones, do you use with your cell phone, do you use any, like, special cases or headsets or beads attached to the phone or anything like that?

I've got my headphones. I just think that I get better sound and mic quality out of them. So typically use those and then just. I think it's a good practice just being in control of. Of technology rather than having technology control. A user is just put my phone where I want it to be and then only answer it when I need it, rather than keeping it strapped to my body so that I can get excited when it buzzes because someone just sent me a text message. If I can take a little bit of. Put some control the distance that I have to my device, then I'm in control of the technology. It's not controlling my behavior and actions. So that's one philosophy that I try to exhibit.

Yeah, yeah. And I use a similar philosophy. I also use a case I myself and my wife use right now is called a Pong. And it. It increases the signal or strengthens the signal of the phone while blocking some of the actual radiation that comes off the backside of the phone. Even though I never really have my phone in my pocket anyways, I have been putting it in this device. It's just basically, it's called a Pong iPhone case. So supposedly they say it reduces what's called the specific absorption rate of the actual radiation that's transmitted by the phone itself. So off to check that out. Yeah, it is interesting. I had a few sent to me and have just been kind of experimenting with them. And then it doesn't seem to change the bar signal at all, so at least it's not hurting. Cool. So if you're listening in, you can go check out Christian's tracker in the link that I have there in the show notes. If you lose your bike or your glasses or any other objects such as car keys, that's a cool device. And I'll also put a link over to Christian's LinkedIn page if you'd like to connect with him. And, Christian, thanks so much for coming on the call, man.

Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Ben. It's been a great discussion.

Hey, folks, it's Ben Greenfield. And as you know, I occasionally experiment with wearables. Kind of makes it sound Like a crime. It's not. I will use some of these things that do indeed emit Bluetooth signals. You know, like things that track calories, heart rate, steps taken, things of that nature. And recently I posted some of my results of a wearable I was using to Facebook to my Facebook Ben Greenfield page. And one of the comments there, I believe it was, was from Dr. Jack Cruz, who's been a guest on our podcast many times. And I'll link in the show notes for you to some of the previous episodes that we've done with him. But he, he begged to differ about a statement that I made that I had yet to see that Bluetooth technology had been proven dangerous, that these wearables might actually be causing damage to the body. And so I figured, what the heck, why not get Dr. Cruz on to, to hear what his thoughts are on Bluetooth technology and what he's found with respect to that. And of course, while I recommend that you go listen to some of the previous podcasts I've done with Jack, you can also visit his website@jackcruise.com he is a respected neurosurgeon. He's the CEO of Optimized Life, which is a health and wellness company. He has a private practice right now in the, in the Gulf south and his research has been published all over the place in a bunch of different dental and medical journals. I believe he gets close to a quarter million visitors each month to his blog and he's got some really good stuff over there and he's always got an interesting take on these type of things and he's definitely willing to think outside of the box that a lot of physicians think inside. So Dr. Cruz, thanks for coming on, man.

Hey, no problem. Anytime, Ben.

Alright, so let's jump right in. What do you think about Bluetooth technology, specifically its effects on the human body?

Well, with regards to it, especially with the intro when you talked about me thinking outside the box, I'm going to tell you when it comes to Bluetooth, you need to understand a little bit of physics and you need to understand a lot of biophysics and you need to understand some basic concepts. But when we get done, when we're finished here, you'll realize there is no box for Bluetooth because no one really knows the true answers based on the technology as it stands today. Here's what we do know that is firmly published in research and when we get done too, Ben, just to put it out there, I'm going to be sending you a couple of links over Skype So that everything that I say today that someone may construe is controversial. You'll find that it's published, it's in the literature, and it's not controversial at all.

Okay.

Problem is, it's not well known and it's absolutely not connected to what I would call mainstream biologic beliefs as they exist today.

If folks are listening in, I'll be sure to put the show notes along with any resources Jack sends@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Bluetooth. All right, go ahead, Jack.

All right, well, for those of your listeners who don't know my track history, I'm really big into non native electromagnetic signals. When we deal with Bluetooth radiation, what are we dealing with? It's basically a wireless technology that uses very specific pulsed radio frequency signals. So when I say pulsed, that's kind of where this discussion needs to begin. Pulsed radio frequency signals have been very well studied, going all the way back to my favorite doctor that we talked about in our EMF4 podcast we did together, Ben, about optimized performance. Becker is the guy who first showed that we could use pulsed electromagnetic radiation, actually increase bone density and to help bone healing. The problem was in his work that is quite extensive, he told people that he would not recommend it being used because of the specific problems, and they were physics problems around pulse radio frequency signals. Now, I want everybody to know that pulses carried by microwaves are particularly dangerous. That's not a controversial point. Okay. And the reason I say this, it's published in the literature, it's very well known. But there's another side to this story that everybody needs to know. The reason why they're dangerous because they have extremely short wavelengths. And this allows transmission of these pulses with an extreme rapid rise and fall in time and, you know, in times and distance. And it turns out that the rate of change of these fields because of the pulses, rather than the complete total energy that they deliver, does most of the biologic damage. And the problem is in medicine and healthcare, we have not studied this from a biologic perspective well enough. Now there are many, many things that have been studied both on the biophysics side, the chemistry side and things like that. And one of the links that I'm going to give you, there's an article that was written in PubMed that you can find. It's called pulsed microwaves can induce light, sound and electrical discharges to enhance by any biopolymer. And what was the point of this paper? And this, just so you guys know, was published in 1990. So we're talking about 16 years ago. Basically, pulsed microwave allows for a phenomenon that generates an acoustic wave. It also can generate bubbles. It can also cause pulsed luminescence. It can ionize gas, and it can cause electrical discharges. And this is all within biopolymers. Just so we're clear, you and I.

Are just so people know, what's a biopolymer?

Yeah, well, that's what I was just going to say. You and I, Ben, are both biopolymers. We're made of proteins. Proteins are biopolymers. When you string a whole bunch of proteins together, most people think of proteins in that fashion. That, functionally, is what a biopolymer is. The reason I'm being very specific in the words that I use in this podcast is because there is so much misinformation from people who have a monetary gain for both Bluetooth and non native EMF devices because they don't want you to understand the science and they try to obscure the truth so that you can never get to the fundamental issues tied behind it. But why do I have a big problem with pulse microwaves is because pulse microwaves and their radiations generate highly focused energy depositions. And it's been shown for 50 years to basically cause leakiness of any type of cellular barrier. For example, the one that I'm most commonly interested in, the blood brain barrier. What's the one that the ancestral health community keeps talking about like they know something about? How about the gut junction and leaky gut? This is predominantly how you cause a leaky gut. And here's the shocking part of this pulse microwave story. The paper that I'm going to link to you in 1999 showed that most of these technology companies and biotechnology companies were using this to kill microbes and kill eukaryotic cells. Ben, you and I are both eukaryotes. And here you see that the original generation of this research was used to harm living things, not help it be more productive. And when you understand that those things are possible, then you need to start to ask questions. Okay, is the generation of the signals that they were doing in 1999 similar to what the Bluetooth technology is today? And here's where the conundrum comes in. Both with mobile technology and I would even say wearables. The one that I'm sure we're going to talk about is going to be what happened with Google Glass and why all of a sudden it just disappeared from this whole wearable technology. When this iPhone iWatch comes out, this is going to be a huge, huge area, because I predict that young kids like yourself, man, are going to get these really weird diseases and they're not going to know why it happens because they fundamentally don't understand how pulsed microwave interacts. So let's talk about Bluetooth, since that's what you wanted to bring.

Yeah, I definitely. I want to talk about it. One of the things, by the way, Jack, as we talk about it, that I'd like to hear your take on is the difference between, like, the classes of Bluetooth, because, you know, there's another.

That's actually all you need to know, Ben. And that's what I was going to start with.

Okay, all right, go ahead.

The classes are the only thing that most of your podcast listeners in 2015 really need to understand. There's class one transmitters, which is what the market is going to. And that's bad news for us because those transmitters are the most powerful. That means they have strong, strong ranges. They can work all the way up to 100 meters away. For example, the BOSE speaker system that I got rid of several years ago, that I had great sound quality. The reason why it was so great is because it was a Class 1 transmitter, and when I checked its pulse fields, it was off the hook. So I got rid of it. There's many other things out there that are like that. The Class 2 transmitters are kind of where we are right now, and I would say that's probably the bulk of the market. And they're found in a variety of different mobile devices. They have a range anywhere between 10 meters, all the way up to probably about 40 or 50 meters right now. And they have different peak transmission powers. But none of that stuff for probably your podcast listeners are important. The Class 3 transmitters are the ones that were the first generation Bluetooth devices. Those are the ones that were less than 10 meters in terms of their generating power. They have functionally gone from the market. They are already extinct, just about, really.

So. So you don't. So a lot of these were, like, when we're talking about, you know, like. Like Fitbit and stuff like that, they're using a Class two, not a Class three transmitter.

Well, here's the number one thing that I do want to bring to your attention and bring to your listeners attention. You have to realize that Class 1 transmitters, Class 2 and Class 3, are all tied to something called the SAR. And I don't know if you remember when we talked last time what the SAR is. It's called Specific Absorption Rate Values. And there are tables that all cellular Devices, by law, in our country and in most countries, even in Europe, have to give in the package inserts. Here's the problem with Bluetooth, they are not required to give you this information. So if you try to find out what kind of transmitter class is in your Bluetooth device, you're going to be shocked. It's extremely difficult to find, really.

It's nowhere on the label or the packaging.

Some. Some have it, some don't, Ben. And you know, I mean, you're a biohacker. You know, I'm a biohacker and, you know, I pay attention to this. I always look for this data. And I have to tell you, I'd say at least 80% of the devices on the market, you won't find it in their packaging because they're not having to do it by law. But here's the big thing. When you take the extra steps, as I have done, to contact the manufacturers, both by certified letter phone calls, you still don't get the information.

One thing that I used to think was that when you saw the Bluetooth version, because when I first heard about classes like class one, class two, class three, I started looking on the packaging and some of them say version right. Like they say Bluetooth version 2 compliant or Bluetooth version 3. But it's.

That's why they store the truth.

Yeah, but apparently the version doesn't have anything to do with the Bluetooth class.

Yeah, it's all about the software. That's all it is. And I will tell you that my own son got hosed on that specific issue because, you know, say, oh, this one is Bluetooth V version 2.3 compliant. And he's like, dad, what did that mean? And when we found out that it basically has to do with more of the software that the Bluetooth device uses, it's a way for, you know, kids that are in high school and college to get completely, you know, screwed. And that's the real reason why I'm so concerned, why I don't believe there is a box. Because there's no way, Ben, for you, me, most of the people that use Bluetooth to really know what their true risk is, the one thing that we can talk about is we can actually talk about how these devices fundamentally ruin cell membranes, how they interact with calcium and potassium. But you know, as well as I do, when we do podcasts, people don't want to get their heads split open with science. You know, they don't. They don't want to hear this stuff. But unfortunately, my viewpoint is that you need to understand that fundamental issue until the labeling on Bluetooth devices becomes at least as good as mobile devices, which here's an irony. You'll probably never hear me ever say anything positive about a cell phone, but here I am saying it. And that's part of the reason why, when you posted that issue on Facebook, I was hoping that it would be provocative that we would eventually talk about this, because I hate Bluetooth and the pulsed waves are a huge problem. And you know, Becker, in my realm, you know, Becker was an orthopedic surgeon. He was a spine surgeon, as I am. I'm a neurosurgeon who does a lot of spine surgery. He was very, very cognizant that these devices could have some unintended side effects, especially when we didn't know fundamentally what frequency ranges they. They worked in it. And there's a lot of very, very complex science that tells us how these things kind of work. It has to do with amplitudes, whether the frequencies are modulated or not, or actually how the pulse radio waves are designed to work in these devices. And all of this information I think consumers need to have, even though they probably don't understand the science of what happens. Because there's going to be guys like me and scientists out there like me, who then can explain to people, these are the things that you need to be careful with. These are the things that you need to avoid. And ultimately, Ben, you know, when someone's in business and they're selling stuff, they do not want you to have all of the data. And what you have to also be very cognizant of is that this industry is a monster industry. I mean, the wearable market, where it's going to be in two, three, four, five years, is probably going to surpass what the iPhone and ipod were. And I mean, guys like you, you talk about the Fitbit, but wait till this iWatch comes out and Apple's marketing team behind it. It's going to explode, probably in the teenage group, all the way up to guys your age, and especially for the elite athletes. And that's what my concern is. My concern is that this is going to be a technology that is probably taken to you faster than anything else out there, because you're only looking at one side of the equation. And as I've told you many times before when we've talked, the same door opens up heaven and hell. The key is to understanding how it works.

Yeah, and I actually want to ask you about what you mentioned as far as Google Glasses goes, because I Did see that article on CNET about the issue between Google glasses and like, migraines and headaches. But before we jump into that, I have one other question, kind of question on, like, the frequency and the power of Bluetooth, based on a discussion that I had with a guy who, who develops basically this technology that allows you to place a Bluetooth sensor on something you might frequently lose, right? Like your car keys, and then be able to find those car keys should you ever forget where they are because of the signal that they produce. And he was talking about how there are different. There's a difference between, like, the wave signal, right, like this teeny tiny wave signal that could be damaging to human tissue versus the long wave signal and the actual power, like the actual power that a Bluetooth device transmits. Apparently there's a, there's a differentiation between power and frequency. Are you familiar with this at all?

Yeah, there is. It's a huge difference. And that, that gets to the core issue of actually understanding the physics behind how this works. And you have to realize where, where EMF fundamentally affects us biologically is on cell membranes and in water chemistry. And the number one thing that I think the industry insiders and in the biophysics community, excuse me, the biophysics community are beginning to understand is that cell membranes are where we interface, meaning biology interfaces with the environment. You know, and it turns out how you ask the questions in experiments determine the answers you get. And this is why I am so concerned about guys like you talk to, because they understand if they ask the wrong questions, they'll get an answer which is not going to show an effect. And then they're going to turn around and sell these devices to kids in high school and at your competitions. And you're not going to structurally understand why your cell membranes become leaky, why the amplitude, if it's modulated, can completely change the mix. There's a fundamental thing that we do need to talk about with microwave, because people may not know this, Ben, and I want to make this really crystal clear. Microwaves are part of light spectrum. I think everybody needs to know that light is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, just as microwaves are. There's UV radiation, you know, there's a variety of different things in there. So for you to understand, light is probably almost where you need to start this discussion. And here's the point about light. Light has a universal speed limit of 186,000 miles an hour, okay? The only. There's only one way to turn up the power of light. And how do you do that it's actually by altering its frequency. Now, are there ways to carry energy and information by altering amplitude and modulating that amplitude? The answer is yes. And that's kind of how biology controls other organ systems in the body. It's also how Bluetooth devices control other things that they run. And the problem is these changes in frequency and the changes in amplitude modification is what these device manufacturers, in my opinion, need to study. And they need to produce data to show that in the frequency ranges that they decide to use this stuff in, that there's no direct effect. And I want to give you an example. If you just bear with me for a minute, I think this will be very interesting to you and your listeners. I'm going to explain to you just how big a deal this is, every single one of your listeners. And you and I both know a little bit about gps, right? I'm sure you've used GPS in the past. Let me explain to you just how powerful the effect of being a little off is. Okay, I said before that light has a universal speed limit of 186,000 miles an hour. That means that light travels 30 centimeters in one nanosecond. Okay, I told you before that the only way to increase energy is to increase the frequency of the wavelength. So what does this mean? It means if timing is off for, say, distant signals, it turns out that the distances that GPS measures will also be off. So let me explain to you how this works in gps, and maybe you'll understand why Google Glass is in deep trouble and why wearable technology is in deep trouble. I want you to think about this feature I just mentioned. GPS clocks orbit the earth. They must run faster than the clocks on the surface of this planet in order for us to navigate properly. Whether we're using it on, you know, an iPhone in our cars, doesn't matter where. What people don't know is they have to run 38 microseconds faster. So when you consider in 38 microseconds at the speed of light, if this clock difference didn't exist, GPS devices would be off by 10km when we used it. I want you to think about that for a minute, Ben. 38 microseconds will put you off 10 kilometers. What kind of effect would that be in Spokane, Washington? You'd be pretty lost, wouldn't you?

Yeah, I mean, that's pretty significant when it comes to training especially.

Well, guess what? Now imagine you put one of these devices right next to your super cosmetic nucleus in a glass, you know, called a glasses, that has all these cool things. What do you think happens to the brain's mitochondria that are in that area? How about the lens of your eye, the eye itself, where, you know, that light comes in and goes to that suprachosmatic nucleus. When that happens, you get inaccurate timing results. And what does that change? It changes cell membrane function, but it changes the way mitochondria handle electrons and protons. And what.

And I would imagine you're about talking timing as a whole, your circadian rhythm.

Correct. And you know better than most that I have been pounding the table. You know, even at Asprey's recent event, that I said food is not the most important thing. That circadian biology is. Here is proof positive that I might be right. And the reason why we're Getting neurodegeneration, type 2 diabetes, and autoimmunity when these type of things happen is because we are developing inaccurate timing between the cell membrane and our mitochondrial membrane. And remember that mitochondrial information, then it has to go to the nucleus where DNA and RNA are expressed. And here we're back to those protein polymers, those biopolymers. And I told you earlier in this podcast that pulsed microwaves have a direct effect on all types of biopolymers because of its interaction on cell membranes. Well, if you remember, we talked a long time ago. I told you that DHA in cell membranes takes light and turns it into a DC electric current. I want you to think back what I just told you about GPS devices. Well, if you can't do this, how are you ever going to know what season you're in, what foods and how they're going to be handled? I mean, the system goes to molecular chaos. And we have different synonyms, names that your listeners know about molecular chaos. One's called swelling, another one's called inflammation. I call them circadian mismatches. But I need people to fundamentally understand that what a Bluetooth device will do to you, especially when you put it very close to your super cosmetic nucleus, is you will create a ripple effect. And that ripple effect starts right where your main clock timer is, where your main GPS device is. When that GPS device is off, all hell can break loose, and it can have massive effects and effects that some of your listeners would not believe. And I'll explain to you why this is the case. The radiation from these Bluetooth devices or mobile handsets can cause whole body irradiation because it basically conducts electricity, and basically it behaves just like an antenna would in your own house. So you need to realize that cell Membranes are designed by evolutionary biology to absorb radiations from the native signals. And when we absorb non native radiation, this begins to generate eddy currents that most people in biology don't even know exist because we don't measure for them. But guess what? Biophysicists know they exist. And what does that. Why is that point? Even if you don't understand the science, why is that point important for you and your listeners to understand? Because that means those non native electromagnetic currents can then flow beyond the site of applications. So you just think, Ben, it's in your ear, but you're not realizing that all the blood vessels in your body, in your brain, then become electric wires that can send all this information all over parts of your body. And you have to realize that your blood plasma is 93% water. That's got salt in it, which is a great conductor for all of these devices. What functionally happens, everywhere this information goes, is it uncouples calcium from potassium. When that happens, all you need to know is this simple thing. It makes membranes more leaky wherever the effect is. And this is in the range of non thermal, meaning, not the microwave that you're thinking about in your kitchen. We're talking about below that level at an atomic basis. Because most people do not understand how microwaves alter the actions of electrons and protons.

Yeah. Now, I have a question for you, Jack, and I don't know if you know the answer to this or not, but do these wearables, or the headsets themselves for that matter, constantly emit this signal? Or for example, if I were to, obviously when you get a phone call, right, the headset starts emitting a signal, and when you sync it to your phone, a wearable starts emitting a signal. But I'm curious if they're consistently producing this radiation or if we need to be most careful when the Bluetooth is actually being utilized.

Well, here's the funny thing. It's a great question. And the answer is I don't think anybody knows because of what I told you before. From the manufacturing standpoint, no one is being transparent about how their devices functionally work. And I think one of the things that we need from the FCC is we need clarity. Just like they force the cell phone manufacturers to post the stuff about sars, we need to know about how they're using the pulsed microwaves, and we need to know when the device admits it the most, when the information is being sent, say from your Fitbit, your Google glasses or whatever. We're talking about whether it be the iWatch Is it constant? Is it pulsed like the wave is, does it tend to happen during use, before use? Ben, we don't know the answers to that.

Yeah. And by the way, if people are listening, if you're listening to this podcast, I'd be very curious if you happen to have any insider view of this stuff. Because, I mean, heck, go leave your comments@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Bluetooth if you know something about how often these devices transmit or some kind of resource that might show us some of this data that we don't currently have on these devices that are out there.

I just think you're not going to get this data because right now the device manufacturers want to keep people completely in the dark about this. But that's the reason I try to be provocative earlier, because you remember two years ago, especially in your world and in the business technology world that, you know, Asprey works in, you know, with all the biohackers, everybody was so excited about Google Glass and now it's like Google Glass died.

Yeah, you don't, you don't see much about it. And I'll link to this CNET article in the show Notes, by the way, but did you hear anything else past the fact that it gives people headaches and migraines?

Oh, dude. If you actually went on Google's website when they were came out with all this information two years ago, I left a massive comment and dude, it was nuclear. You would have thought. Oh yeah, you would have thought that. You know, I basically just cursed out, you know, Jesus Christ on the forum. And I told them, I made the prediction before anything was published, that this will cause huge spikes in cataracts. It's going to cause huge problems with eye disease. We're going to have huge problems with blood brain barrier. And I even linked the data back to Alan Fry's work that was done 50 years ago in the federal government. I mean, this guy took methylene blue, which you probably know about, Ben, because it actually helps mitochondrial function, but he injected it into animals, into their circulatory system, exposed their head to pulse microwaves, and guess what he found. The methylene blue got in through the blood brain barrier. Just so you know, when you don't have pulse microwaves, it doesn't get in. And then subsequent researchers have then done the same experiment in humans with albumin, meaning the albumin that's made in your liver. They subjected your head to the pulsed microwaves and they found that your own albumin gets through your blood brain barrier. What does it do it opens the pores in the ancestral health community. In your community, my community, we always talk about how the brain gut axis works, dude. And here's the ticket. When your brain blood barrier is open, anything that happens in your gut is going straight to alter the water chemistry and csf. That's when all shit hits the fan. And look, I've been pounding the table for a long time that people need to come to my scale. They need to get off this biochemical scale because people don't understand. These hydrogen bonding networks in CSF in our blood are designed to flicker. And they flicker based on the electromagnetic waves that we choose to put them in. And when you put that device somewhere on your body, you're actually augmenting the effect. And just to give you an example, I really wanted to tell you this just to make the point, you know, that I've been pretty provocative on Facebook probably in the last six months about comparing you and Jimmy more on a variety of different things, because you both set the tone for why you can do some of the things you can and Jimmy can't do some of the things he can. And you know that he embraces technology, probably far more so than you do, because he's really a podcaster. He's talked about these issues that he's had with fertility. Well, here's what I want to bring to you. You've just had a kid. You're not having an issue with that. Just think about Bluetooth on a cell phone. Do you know it's been shown if you use a Bluetooth device and you tether it, most people put Bluetooth device around their belt or their pocket. If you have change in your pocket, do you know that the rates of infertility go up exponentially?

That's crazy. Wow.

Here's what I want to tell you. This is the reason why Ben, the physics is important. What is metal? It's made out of transition metals. What do you need to know about non native microwave pulsed emf? It draws. In other words, it seeks metal. Now, why do I want people to pay attention to what I just said? I want you to pull out a biochemistry book and realize that every mouth of every cytochrome has iron sulfur clusters. Iron is the number one transition metal that non native pulsed microwave. Do you know that the number one transition metal in biology is iron or copper? Okay. That's what Becker found in his.

That returns to that whole, like, nail Penny Lemon experiment that we all used to do back in high school.

Right? Exactly. And you know, it brings back the point back to Becker, because what did Becker find in bone physiology? And this is not even arguable anymore more it's published. He found that two copper ions have to be between the PN junction. What a PN junction is in bone. It's collagen meets appetite. Two copper ions electrostatically have to be there. Guess what knocks them out? Non native emf. Why did all the guys that went up in Mir, why did all the guys that go up in Sputnik, why all the guys in the International Space center get space induced osteoporosis? One reason my friend, they can't keep those two copper ions between their PN junction. And guess what? It's the same reason why people on this surface are getting osteoporosis in my clinic when they use non native EMF kind of the way Jimmy does. As opposed to you. Do people think that I'm a jackass for pointing this out? I'm just using him because he's a good example and a proxy for what many people who are followers of you and me do every single day. Because let's face it, Bluetooth and mobile technology do make us more productive. There is a good side to these things, but the problem is we're not being told how it's destroying the cell architecture and how it can affect our medical problems. So that when you do go to the doctor and the doctor can't figure out why all of a sudden under your Fitbit you've got this allergic reaction or someone who didn't have a leaky gut subsequently develops rip roaring Hashimoto's within a couple of months. Dude, those two examples I gave you I've seen in my own clinic in the last four weeks. It happens. And the problem is you guys can't get mad at doctors. And I'll tell you why. Doctors aren't taught any of this stuff. I wasn't taught any of this stuff in medical school or residency. Because guess what, this is the domain of physics. And that's why it's important to get cross pollination between physics and biology so that people can begin to understand how these non thermal effects will affect the biopolymers in us.

Yeah, wow. Well, it sounds to me like obviously a huge need here is more transparency. Transparency from the people producing these wearables and Bluetooth enabled devices that lets us know not only what class they are and what power that they're transmitting at, but whether they are constantly transmitting or not. And that's something I'm personally very, very curious about. Is if I put a wearable on or if I've got Bluetooth enabled. Is that a consistent signal or is it only going on when I'm using it?

Well, I think what you bring up here is a great point and I want to actually piggyback on this point for you to consider. Again, I'm going to go back to Jimmy and you. Here's something else that I would say to all your listeners. I'm going to say this to you to be provocative. I believe Ben Greenfield can handle a Class one transmitter. I don't believe Jimmy Moore can. And why did I say that? And it's simple. Because Ben's redox potential is far better than most people probably listening to this podcast, including myself. But see, the difference is I realize it. Most other people don't. The point that I want to make to you, that not everyone will be equally affected by this radiation. I know, Ben, you didn't hear my talk at Asprey's event, but I made a comment there that is very apropos here. Is that the reason why biohacking is incredibly important to me and why I really respect guys like you and Dave, because you share your biohacks with people. What we are finding in biophysics is that all of our results will rhyme. They won't be exactly the same. And the reason why is because our mitochondria are designed to be electromagnetic sensors of the environment that we choose. So that means Ben's environment is different than mine. It's different from Dave's and is different from Jimmy's. But why do we need to share this information? Because it will give us insights. In other words, the effects of a Class one in Ben may not be as great as it would be in either me or Jimmy. But that means what Ben can tolerate and what he may talk about may be far different than the listeners there. So you have to realize that your context is critical. Why? Because what did I say in a blog post I wrote? And I'll send a link to you. It's called the EMF Prescription FAQs, meaning the frequently Asked questions. I said there that one of the major effects is that non native emf, especially from Bluetooth devices, affects water chemistry. Well, what happens if you're one of those people that already has a high B1 creatinine ratio and you didn't know it? So that means you're going to be more affected, you're going to be more likely to get an autoimmune disease, you're going to be more likely to get an allergy or electrochemical sensitivity or some other crazy effect. And if you do it for 20, 30, 40 years, which we now have people doing kind of like Jimmy, you're much more at risk for metabolic syndrome, obesity, neurodegeneration. There's even papers now being published on ADHD and autism spectrum disorders. And people in my world think this is kind of the world of craziness because they've never thought about these links. The problem is it's because they don't realize that all these effects are tied to calcium, magnesium and water chemistry. And we are altering our defense mechanisms in our body. And when you alter them to a point, you begin to destroy cell function and cell signaling. When cell signaling goes awry, that's when all these diseases all of a sudden manifest out of the clear blue air. And I would just tell you and your listeners to think about what's happened in the 20th century since we started using these devices. All the diseases I just mentioned have shown up out of thin air in the last 50 years. Well, what else is also shown up in the human condition? We now embrace this technology. I mean, Ben, I'm older than you, and I can tell you that I didn't use a cell phone until I was probably 27, 28, 29 years old. Dude, you've grown up in a world where this is just expected technology. Like you couldn't imagine, you know, growing up in a world I did that gives me a little built in advantage. But the problem is the more of this stuff you use, the more sensitizing effect it's going to have on you. And that's the point that I've tried to make to the ancestral health community because they just focus in on food and they don't understand how these things directly demolish circadian signaling.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I've made a lot of changes just in some based on some of the discussions that you and I have had, Jack. And you know, for anyone listening in, you can go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com Bluetooth and I'll put a link to previous podcasts that we've done with Jack. And I mean, you know, as we're talking, you know, I'm hardwired into. I don't have WI fi in my house, period. There is no WI fi. It annoys people because if they come to my house, they have and they want to use the Internet, they have to get one of the long cables, take it out of the closet, drag it over to the wall, plug it in Plug it into the computer. You know, my. My laptop is grounded. You know, I've got special lighting in my office right here where I'm. I'm standing at my standing desk talking to Jack. It's like, you know, I certainly am into the biohacking scene, but I've gone through great steps and taken a lot of Jack's advice, and my body feels much, much better because of it. Notice a huge difference. So I would first of all encourage you, if you're listening, to go and listen to some of the other stuff that we've done with Jack. And then also be proactive and help me, because I'm going to be reaching out to some of the people who develop some of the technologies that I use and asking them these questions about class power, whether or not there's constant transmission things along those lines. And I would encourage you also to not just use this technology indiscriminately and just because it says health and fitness on it, assume that it is safe. Because I think that we have yet to prove that that's true.

The other thing, too, Ben, that again, the piggyback. You have a lot of people that listen to you for optimal performance, fitness and performance. The point that I want to make, I hope that all of us together, when we get together and share these thoughts and share these electrons, that we can get people to biohack this stuff and actively talk about it on your forum, my forum, Facebook, maybe even at future conferences, so that we can share our insights and our data. And maybe people can begin to realize that these effects are not going to be consistent across the board. Because since our bodies make antennas, each one of our antennas are only as good as the mitochondria it's attached to. And people need to understand that really basic premise about how things work. And when, you know, I think everybody's had the experience when you try to find a station on the radio and it comes in fuzzy, and then all of a sudden it comes in. That's kind of the same thing that I'm talking about when we deal with these kind of biohacks for these wearable devices. Because I have to be honest with you, it's probably one of my biggest concerns for the next three to five years. I do not feel, as you do, that I think these are going to be devices that are going to be great. I think there'll be some that are pretty good, but I'm really concerned there's going to be some really negative things out there about it. And the reason I wanted to highlight the Google Glass thing is because I think everybody listening to this knows two years ago, that's all anybody talked about. Dude, you can't find it anywhere. And this is the reason why. Because when people started using it, the aftermarket data came out and Google said, no, thanks. And I personally believe this is the reason why Google has now moved into the healthcare platform. For those of your listeners who don't know, they are now trying to get into my space. And I think they realize that what they sell directly impacts biology. And I think they want to control the message so that it doesn't affect their bottom line. And this may be a shocking revelation to the people listening to this, but I'm not interested in shocking people. I'm interested in telling people the truth so that they begin to understand. They look under this rock and realize that when they go to the doctor and the labs are screwed up and the doctor can't find an answer, maybe the answer is in the mirror because of the way you use this technology and it's happening completely below your sensory perception. That's really my job on the Internet. It's not to tell people what to see. It's to point them in the direction of what's published in the science and make them understand how it compares. Completely connects to how mitochondria work. And I think everybody listening to this knows that mitochondrial function and anybody who's a eukaryotic mammal is pretty damn important.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, we could go on and on, but I think that that gives our listeners plenty to chew on for now. And again, Jack's gonna send me some of the resources that he talked about. So if you're listening, go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com Bluetooth and leave your thoughts, leave your questions, leave your feedback there. Check out some of the resources that we have there. And Jack, thanks so much for coming on, man.

Hey, no problem. Anytime, Ben.

All right, folks, this is Ben Greenfield and Jack Cruz signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have a great week. Visit BenGreenfieldFitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness, nutrition and performance advice.

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