Is It OK To Be Addicted To Exercise?

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Hey folks, Ben Greenfield here and I have a guy on the call with me whose book I literally just finished reading this month. And it's not a super long book. It's actually available as a Kindle single. And that's kind of a cool deal where you can, you can get almost like, I guess I would describe it as a short story. It's not super duper short, but really, really interesting stories you can find over on the Kindle singles website on Amazon. And the guy with me on the call today is named Mischka Shibaly. And Mishka wrote a book called the Long Run and the Long Run. And we'll kind of be talking a little bit about Miska's story today. But in a nutshell, it's about kind of his personal growth and his discovery running and how it could actually help turn him the way that he describes in the book description from an irreverent young drunk and drug abuser to someone who learned how to tame self destructive tendencies through ultra running. So today we're going to talk about this kind of thing. You know, the whole link between exercise and addiction and addictive personalities and running and the difference between running and something like drugs or alcohol or other positive or negative addictions and just kind of delve into this stuff and explore it in a little bit more detail. And I'll of course put a link over to Mischka's website@mischkashibaly.com so you can check that out. And also to his book the Long Run, which is a good read. But Mishka, thanks for coming on the call today, man.

Thanks man. I'm psyched to finally talk to you and to talk about all this stuff.

Yeah, yeah. This is going to be fun. And obviously you've written an entire book book on your story and so this is going to be kind of a loaded question that I'm going to lead off with. But just tell me a little bit about kind of your history, like what formed the basis of you writing this book about using running to kind of break that cycle of alcohol and drugs.

Yeah, I mean, I think I started, I mean, I don't remember the first drink I ever had. That's how young I was. But I was probably like, you know, 12, 13, 14, where I started to, you know, you know, sneak alcohol and get hammered. And then, you know, by the time I was 16, I think when I was 17, I was taking a bus home after. After class, and I sort of had the epiphany that I was like, I. You know, I think I have a problem with alcohol. I really think that I'm an alcoholic. And then I went on and drank hard for another 15 years before I did anything about it.

So you were how old when you started kind of drinking?

I mean, I was getting drunk regularly by the time I was 14 or 15.

Holy cow. Wow. And then. So for 15 years, you stayed with alcohol like that?

Yeah. And of course, it wasn't just alcohol. When I was a teenager, we would get high off cough syrup. And then inevitably, when I moved to New York City, I started doing coke, because that would wake you up so you could drink more. And then I had back pain, so I started taking Vicodin and Percocet and Oxycontin and sort of all these different, you know, this different spectrum of opiates. And, you know, I mean, just really, like, got to a point where, you know, I would do anything. I would do anything that anybody would give to me. You know, I remember doing drugs that I found on the floor in bars and stuff like that. And, you know, and also, I mean, wasn't a secretive thing. You know, I, you know, I play music, and a lot of times alcohol is sort of part of the currency that you get paid in. Yeah. And I really, you know, I guess I sort of built. I built my life around alcohol and around getting messed up and just, you know, that escape. And that's a pretty hollow and dangerous thing to construct your life around.

So during this time, was that. Was that kind of like your main job was as a musician?

No, no. I mean, I've never made any significant amount of money as a musician. That's my first love. And it's ironic, I'm in the process of making a record right now, but we always played in punk bands and stuff like that and never expected to make a dime and lived up to that expectation. But so in service of playing in bands, I worked, you know, I worked in, like, fast food kitchens and stuff when I was a kid, and then sort of, you know, crappy, like, office temp jobs. And then I worked. I worked in bars, you know, before I got fired and, you know, and Then the last sort of straight job that I had was, you know, doing paperwork at a construction company.

Got it. Okay. So at some point, did you just implode? I mean, did your body just basically, you know, give up? Did you have to go into detox or something like that? Or did you just start running? I mean, where this transition take place, from you abusing drugs and alcohol to becoming a runner and an ultra runner, no less.

Well, what's ironic is that whenever you watch a made for TV movie about addiction or something like that, there's always this moment where the drunk or the drug addict totally melts down, or they have this poignant thing where they look in the mirror at their bloodshot eyes and stuff like that. That's the thing, is there was no one big bad thing that made me think, now I have to stop. It's just that each day my life was getting imperceptibly worse, just a little bit worse, starting at a very low, sort of the minimum wage equivalent of living. And it would just sort of get just worse and worse. And I'd had friends sort of warn me for a while, like, man, you really got to slow down and stuff like that, to the point where they started just sort of turning their backs on me, like, just not calling me or not returning calls and not hanging out because it was, you know, I think it was too ugly to watch. And I, you know, I just. I saw that you can drink really hard for a really long time without killing yourself. And I realized that to continue drinking the way that I was wouldn't necessarily kill me, but I would continue to have a life from which death would be a respite I would have where I wished that I would die. I'd been hanging out with this. I mean, what's ironic is I met her because she was a bartender who breathed fire at this heavy metal bar. But Tracy Helsing had this other secret life as a personal trainer. And, you know, we were hanging out and, you know, I was like, man, you know, I can't believe what dynamite shape you're in. And she was like, yeah, you're not. And, you know, she was like, you know, I'm going to train you. And that sucked. You know, that was just really just horrible. So I, you know, I did, you know, I trained with her like once a week for a little while. And then finally I came home from sort of a disastrous tour of the UK with my band. And then I just stopped drinking. And the way that I started running is actually that I, you know, A couple of months after I had quit drinking, I was working as a night manager at a bar. Ironic occupation to have for somebody who's newly sober.

And were you still doing, like, personal training and stuff with. With her at that point, or was that over?

A little bit. But nothing. Nothing like the kind of training that you do, Ben. Right. And then let's take a minute break.

You're just like, hitting the gym every now and again, that kind of thing?

Yeah, it was like, rehabilitative stuff.

Right.

And then a friend of mine got sucker punched at the bar and he got knocked out, and we had to call the paramedics and stuff, and they took him off in an ambulance. And then I left my bike there at the bar and just took a cab home because I was pretty rattled. And then the next morning I woke up and I was so angry that somebody had sucker punched my friend and that my bike was still in the city. And I was just enraged about it. So I. Without even thinking about it, I put on these ancient indoor soccer shoes that I'd used for pouring concrete in and stuff. And I went outside and I was like, I'm not gonna wait for the bus. I'm going to the city to get my bike. And I just started running, and I ran all the way there, and it sucked. It was horrible. It was just like my body was sort of in a panic. And then when I got there, I was like, wow, I did that. You know, I can't believe that I did that.

And then how far was it that you ran?

It was like four and a half miles.

Yeah. Okay.

And I. Then I got home and I, like, looked it up on Google Maps to see how long it was, and I was like, I. You know, when I was 13, I think I did a five mile road race, and that was the longest, you know, and between 13 and 32, you know, I'd never run that distance. And, you know, and then I guess I sort of approached running at the beginning the same way I approached drinking, where I was like, oh, you know, I. I did a little bit, and that didn't kill me. Let me try doing more, you know, and then I just kept running more and more, and I found that, you know, and I found that it was therapeutic, too. You know, I was so angry when I left my house, and by the time I got to Beauty Bar to pick up my bike, I felt okay.

Right, right. And so at that point, were you still drinking at all, or had you kind of, like, stopped, or was there kind of a transition there?

No, when I stopped, I just stopped. I drank. You know, on the flight back from England, I drank much as I could. And then when we got back to, you know, to America, I was like. I was just. I was done, man. I. You know, it's like I had been thirsty my whole life, and then finally I wasn't thirsty anymore. I just. I didn't have the strength to take another drink.

Interesting. Interesting. So when you started running, did you feel, you know, as. As you started to get into it, did you feel like running had some kind of a comparison from, like a psychological or a stimulant standpoint to what you'd experienced when you were drinking or when you're using drugs?

You know, there's a lot of talk about substitute addictions and runners high and stuff like that. And this is the thing is that for me, running was the complete opposite of alcohol. You know, I never had to be pushed to take a drink. You know, and if anything, it was a process of going through the day of forestalling that first drink, you know, but with running, even now, it's the total opposite, where I have to be like, I look at the clock and I'm like, okay, at 8:32, I'm going to be walking out the door. And then, you know, 8:30, okay, 8:35. All right. 8:40, I'm running, you know, and I still, like, even now, I really, really have to push myself to do it, you know. And then, you know, with drinking, you take that first drink and then you're like, man, you know, you're rolling. And for me, the first, like, you know, four, five, six miles, I'm just like, I hate this. I hate running. I'm old. I'm out of shape. Why do I do this? This sucks. This is the worst. I'm never running again. And then I get through that and I get warm. And then I'm like, okay, now I can go for a little while. And another thing, too, is that. It's like the curve on the graph of pleasure and pain with running and with alcohol are totally opposite. With alcohol, you instantly feel good or feel better, and then the next morning, you feel like absolute hell. And when you're in your 30s, that next morning can last three days. And with running, it's the total opposite for me, man, is that like, you know, the beginning, it's really tough. And, you know, especially to go out and run, you know, a marathon or longer. I mean, there's definitely. There's always like, dark times during that and points where you're like, you know, I hate this. And then afterwards, you know, you feel much better and, you know, you feel good for the next, you know, 18 hours or two days or three days or whatever. And I found too, that, you know, if you're. If you're angry at your, you know, with your wife or angry with a friend or something like that, and you go out and get wasted, you know, maybe you. Maybe you get over it, but more often than not, you wake up the next morning and you're still angry at them. With running, I felt like I could, you know, I could be angry at my sister or angry at my dad or angry at a friend, go out running and let that anger play out in my mind and let it. Let myself be angry while I was running right home. I worked it out, you know, and I forgiven them or I'd figured out what I had done wrong or like, you know, I found a way forward.

So what about, like, like the. The endorphins and the runner's high and all of these, these, you know, kind of chemicals that get released when you're running. Did you ever wonder or did you ever feel like that was replacing some of what you were getting from drinking? Even though I get what you're saying that, like, it's a lot harder to, like, start a run, to like, wake up in the morning and start a run than it is to say, like, grab a glass of wine or whatever in the afternoon or, you know, or break into a drink in the evening. But did you ever kind of. Kind of wonder if running was somehow, like, chemically replacing what you were getting from drinking or from drug use?

I never wondered about it until other people kept bringing it up to me, saying, like, oh, man, you know, you're addicted to running or you're going to blow out your knees or like, look at all the stress you're putting on your heart. And some of those people are just hideously misinformed. I think that sadly, that humanity still has a tendency that when we see someone doing something that we don't understand, we automatically assume that it's bad. You know, if, you know, if you ever watch a performance of people dancing and mute the sound on the TV so you can't hear the music, you're like, what the hell are they doing? And it's just because you're missing an element of it. And I really. I think it's a lot easier for people who don't run and who don't understand how important exercise is to your mental health, for them to look at me, you know, running 40 miles or 50 miles and say, oh, the guy's addicted to running. I think that's an easy way out. And I think the much harder way out is to say our sedentary modern life is unfulfilling. If you have a job where you sit in a cubicle eight hours a day, that's soul deadening and running all day long is good for you. And I think there's another personal thing there too, where, you know, Americans are, in general, they're obese and out of shape. And if. If. If you think that running a mile or running two miles is a good, hard workout, you're. You're not in shape, you know, and I think the bulk of people could stand to exercise a lot more. Sorry for rambling on here. Obviously, I have a lot to say on this subject. The other thing is.

Yes.

On a biological, like a chemical level. Yeah. Pheromones are released, and we feel pleasure when we exercise in the same way that we feel pleasure when we get food or we get shelter or we feel companionship with another human being. We're biologically programmed in that manner to feel pleasure when we get things that are good for us.

Right.

That's something that comes internally. So I have a hard time understanding that as a high when you go out and sit in the sun for five minutes and your skin gets warm, or you play with your dog or. Or you get a hug from your wife, or you're like, man, I just got the best wife huggers high. No, we just describe it as feeling good. And for me, when I get high, I sleep in the street. When I get high, I sleep with one boot on and one boot off. And when I run, I certainly feel good, but it's a kind of good that we're supposed to feel. It's a kind of pleasure that I think we're supposed to seek. I absolutely think that exercise addiction is real, and I absolutely think that some people come out of an addiction and find another one just to transfer too. And I absolutely think that's real, and I don't think that's my situation.

Right, right. So for you, it's more of, like, a path to health and personal fulfillment more than you feeling like it's you replacing. I mean, like, when you run, you know, and for me, you know, I'm the geeky physiologist guy, and, you know, I look at these studies that show that you get, like, literally, like, cannabinoid release when you're running, and you get these endorphins and dopamine and serotonin upregulation and all this. Really a lot of the similar stuff that you see when people are using drugs or getting high or in the early stages, especially of when someone is drinking, you feel more like for you, that it's just like you just want to be healthy or you want to almost kind of escape the, the boredom of day to day life more than it feels like you're trying to replace an addiction.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think too, that there's, you know, I don't have the hard science, you know, the empirical data to support this, and I wish I did because I invest a lot in empirical data. But I think that if you take a bowl of spinach and garbanzo beans, you can break that down to the fiber and the different vitamins and minerals that you're getting from that bowl of food, and you can take in all of those different nutrients in pellet form and swallow them with a glass of water, or you can eat the bowl of spinach and the garbanzo beans, and technically you'd be getting like the same stuff. But eating the spinach and the garbanzo beans is somehow better for you because it's real and it hasn't been distilled or extracted or, you know. I mean, I would like, though the pleasure that we feel from exercise is maybe markedly similar on a chemical basis to what you feel when you're catching a buzz from something else. I would argue that there's a difference from something that comes internally and taking an outside substance in order to hijack that response.

Right.

You know, another thing, too, is that when, you know, when I was getting high, I was all about the fastest, easiest route that, like, I, you know, chopping up a pill seemed laborious, like an extra step. You know, it's just like, why can't I just, you know, pay the guy on my corner money and have the drug instantly in my sinuses? You know, too much effort. And if you're, if you're gonna go out and run 10 miles just to feel good, I would argue that you deserve to feel good because.

Oh, yeah, I mean, it's a huge effort. And, you know, that's a really interesting perspective too, Mischka, that I think that, you know, you bring up a really good viewpoint here, you know, and, and this is why I wanted to get you on the show, really, because you've got this unique perspective where you're not, you know, you're not somebody who's been like, quote, unquote like a health nerd your whole life, right? You've, you've experienced ultra running and I do want to ask you in a second about how you, how you went from the 4 1/2 mile run into a full on ultra run, but you've experienced ultra running and kind of like the, the, the, the training almost like the barrier that you have to overcome to strap on your shoes and head out for a run versus the barrier that you have to overcome to like, you know, snort a line or open a bottle of beer or whatever. And you make a really good point. The barrier to go out and run is way, way bigger. And so perhaps that reward is much, much more justified.

Yeah, yeah. I was talking to Dean Dwyer who actually introduced us and he said, oh, do you have any advice for people? And I was like, well, I try hard not to give advice because I've gotten so much bad advice in my life. But one of the things that I've found that works for me is, is that our lives are, it's sort of a cycle between pleasure and effort or pain. And whenever you have the option, take the pain up front.

What do you mean by that?

Do the hard thing first. Go out and get high and feel good now and feel like hell tomorrow. Go out and you know, do 200 push ups or do 50 burpees or run 10 miles today and feel like hell while you're doing it and then feel better. And that framing things like that has just. Yeah, I don't know, it's just perspective. But perspective makes such a huge difference.

Yeah, that's almost like a philosophy you could take into the day too, though. Take the pain first. I mean, like, for example, for me, and I know that you're a writer too, so you've experienced this. If you don't start the day by overcoming that uncomfortable barrier of whatever, opening your computer or sitting down. I don't think anyone sits down to a typewriter anymore, or opening a notepad and starting into your writing and taking that quote, unquote, pain first. Because honestly, I don't know about, for you, but for me there's kind of a barrier there. Like when you get up in the morning, it takes a little bit. It's kind of like strapping on the shoes to go for a run. But if you do that, the pleasure that comes after, when you finish that chapter before you've been writing emails and posting on Facebook and whatever else, it's, it's a really, really much more efficient and rewarding way to live your life. When you do what you've described as taking the pain first. I think that's a really, almost like something you could use as a daily rule.

Yeah, yeah. And let's look at it in an even more specific form. So you've fallen behind on your blog posts. You're like, man, I have these three great posts that I need to write them up and get them done. So model A, you wake up, log onto Facebook, procrastinate, kick around the house, do everything and anything you can to avoid writing those blog posts. And then like 5:30 rolls around, you haven't gotten them done, and you're like, ah, what a nightmare. So you make a pot of coffee, drink some coffee, you're up all night writing these posts, you finally get them done. It's, it's one in the morning, but you can't sleep because you had that pot of coffee at 5:30. Now the other model is you wake up, make the pot of coffee in the morning, sit down, write the blog posts, get it done at 1pm you're done. So then you can go out and whatever, like take the dog out for a walk for an hour. You have a couple other things you want to knock out. You're going to meet a buddy to play racquetball. You're going to like, you're like, it's a beautiful day. I'm going to go out for a big long bike ride because I have an extra four hours. If you do the worst thing first, then you can reward yourself with the fun stuff that you want to do. Whereas if you put the hard thing off, then it just doesn't work. Man.

Do you think you can get to a point where you take things too far? Because there are, you know, there are entire articles and I think there's even a book on exercise addiction where, you know, you see everything from psychologically diagnosed disorders of exercise bulimia or, you know, exercise anorexia, where people are just, you know, exercising and exercising and exercising for the sake of body image. There are people who are neglecting their family or their job or their relationships to exercise or to say, compete in triathlon. You know, the Wall Street Journal had that article that they did a couple years back called it, you know, a workout broke up my Marriage. I mean, do you think that you can take this concept of a positive, you know, addiction, you know, quote, unquote addiction, and take it too far?

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. This, this is the thing though is I doubt that a workout could break up a marriage if working out to that. If you're in a relationship and you're working out to such a length and such an extreme that you're neglecting your relationship, it's because you're not invested in that relationship. And, you know, I mean, having not read the article and not knowing the story, I mean, it sounds like this person probably, that there was probably problems with their relationship to begin with. And then they were like, I don't want to deal with this. So instead I'm going to go and you know, sink my, you know, invest completely in preparing for whatever triathlon, marathon, ultra marathon, ping pong tournament, I'm sorry, escape into something and not deal with this problem. You know, I mean, I had a, I had a girlfriend. You know, one of the things that she said was, she was like, you know, all you care about is, you know, running and your bands and like, you don't care about spending time with me. And I was like, am I addicted to running? And then I thought about it and I said, no, this relationship just isn't important to me.

Right.

You know, and that's, it's really, that's a really horrible thing to say. I mean, just listening to those words come out of my mouth, I was like, man, what a jerk you are. But human beings don't want to deal with the unpleasant stuff like that of telling someone, listen, I loved you, but I don't anymore.

Right.

You know, and so a lot of we take a coward's path and you can bust out a triathlon or an ironman or a marathon and still be an emotional coward, particularly when it comes to relationships. You know, I, that said, you know, I mean, I definitely have seen, you know, I've met people in, you know, in my day to day life and in my, you know, my running life and then, you know, seeing a couple things on TV and stuff where I absolutely feel that people are obsessed with their body, you know, unhealthily obsessed with their body image or, you know, over training. And I, and I absolutely believe that they're addicted to exercise.

But.

I don't think it's as simple as people, as people make it out to be. You know, we, as a society, I think we suffer from having a lot of, a lot of armchair diagnosticians, people who, you know, read something in Reader's Digest, so suddenly they're, you know, they're an authority on how you eat or how you exercise. I mean, reading your, listening to your podcast and reading some of the stuff on your website and knowing your history. If you told me today I had a spinach deficiency I would probably go out and pick up a bag of spinach because you've done homework and you have a basis for that knowledge.

But.

You know, somebody who's, if you're, if you're competing for the Olympics or if you want to, if you want to dance ballet professionally. To be an elite athlete, regardless of the sport, requires tons and tons and tons of time and commitment and energy. You know, one of my, one of my cousins was like, just badass cross country skier. And then finally he gave it up and I was like, Stefan, like, you know, you were so good. Why did you give up? And he said, because the, the difference between being excellent at something and elite is huge. And he said, I didn't, I didn't have what it took in my mind to go from being excellent to being elite. Being a mathematician was more important to me. So he's doing math now, you know, and he's, he's happy doing that, you know, And I think, you know, to be an Olympic weightlifter, obviously you've got to log a lot of hours in the gym, but if you, you know, if you're, if you work, if you have a 9 to 5 or if you have a 9 to 5 and a relationship that means something to you or children, I think it's incredibly important for people to find balance. Yeah.

And I think you bring up a really interesting perspective because most of the information that's out there on exercise addiction, because let's face it, there are tons and tons of articles on the Internet about basically endorphins, chemicals, exercise addiction, and I haven't read a single one that questions whether or not maybe you just don't have a commitment or interest in whatever it happens to be that you're neglecting when you exercise. And maybe it's that component that needs to be addressed too. And I think that's a really interesting perspective. I mean, I think that's valuable, you know, like, if I were to put that into my situation, you know, if I'm going to go out on a Saturday morning, whatever, three or four hour bike ride in preparation for an Ironman triathlon, and I'm going to leave my kids and skip a soccer game or skip breakfast with the family or something to do that, is it that I'm addicted to exercise, or is it just as much that maybe I'm not as committed to the relationship with my kids, for example, as I should be? I think that's a spin on this that a lot of people don't really even think about.

Yeah. And I mean, and I think the reason that they don't think about it is because it's, you know, it's scary to think about that or difficult to think about that.

Well, it's easy to blame stuff on chemicals versus maybe taking the responsibility and questioning where your priorities lie and whether or not your priorities are where they should be.

It's funny, like, in order for me to get sober and in order for me to stay sober, I feel like I've had to throw away most of the conventional advice about sobriety and getting sober and adopt a lot of things that people think run contrary to what one would imagine would be helpful for somebody in recovery. And Doug Stanhope, this sort of firebrand of an underground comedian, has a lengthy bit about Dr. Drew, the, you know, the recovery expert on TV, where he's just ripping him up one side and down the other. And ironically, Stanhope has, in his bits, has said more to me that speaks to me, that means something to me than Dr. Drew ever could, you know, and one of the things that Stanhope said is, he said, there is no such thing as addiction. There's. All there is is finding something that you enjoy doing more than life. And I was, wow. You described my relationship with alcohol perfectly. It was, you know, and I just. I like drinking more than I like doing anything else. Anything else. It was. Everything came second to that. It was the most. It was like. It was the friend that was always there, the unconditional love, total understanding and just always there for me. One of the reasons why I think I was able to build my mileage up quickly and why I really latched on to running right away is because to become an alcoholic over time, first you're first. Maybe you stop buying music so you have more money for alcohol, and then you stop buying clothes, and then you stop eating in restaurants, and you take a job where you don't have to go to work until 11am at the earliest, preferably like 1 or 2pm and, you know, you don't hang out with people who give you shit about your drinking. And, you know, you would never date a woman who couldn't stand your drinking. And then. And so it's like little by little, your life gets thinned down to just, you know, this strand, which is, you know, like a filthy futon, maybe a tape deck, you know, for your Johnny Cash and, like, Tom Waits tapes and the liquor store. And then when you remove alcohol from that life, there's nothing there. And so I just had an empty, empty life when I stopped drinking, running Is the first thing that I put into that hole that, you know, that sort of gaping chasm. And so, you know, so I was able to, you know, I was like, when I'm, when I'm angry or when I'm depressed, here's something that I can do that will make me feel. It won't make me feel better, it'll make me feel less bad. Here's something that I can put in my life. This is one thing that I do. I have a hobby. For the first time in 15 or 20 years, I have a hobby, you know, and now, ironically, I wrote this book about getting sober and becoming an ultra runner. And now I run so much less than I did before. I wrote don't have Time because I have life. I have, you know, I'm working on my next Kindle single for Amazon. I'm finishing up an old record with an old friend of mine in Virginia. Right now. I'm, you know, you know, shortly I'm going to, I'm flying to England to do some, some readings there. I'm going to a friend's wedding in Ireland. I'm going to my family reunion in northern Canada. I bought a house, which is just blows my mind. I, you know, then I'm going out to California to work on the house with my dad. I, I have, I have friends, like real friends, some of which are the same people who I was friends with when I was drinking, except now we have real friendships instead of just hanging out once, getting blasted once every three months. And I'm friends with all of my family members.

Yeah. And what I think is kind of interesting here is, and this is again, my geeky, nerdy take, my physiologist take on this whole thing is a big, big part of all of these different chemicals that we get, quote, unquote, addicted to. These are the same chemicals that shut down pain or that shut down fatigue. And so when you're experiencing a release of chemicals that are going to attach to the opioid receptors in your brain and shut down pain, or chemicals that are going to processes that are going to upregulate dopamine and help you to feel happier or better, a big, big part of that is probably just like an ancestral adaptation so that when you're out there and you sprain your ankle or when the going gets tough, or when you run out of storage glycogen or whatever else happens that you can keep going to do what you set out to do. And I think that in many cases, sometimes that's painted as A bad thing when you actually. When you like that feeling of almost kind of like having the Mario star around you while you're out there running, having all these chemicals that are keeping you from stopping and kind of shutting down a lot of the pain that might otherwise stop you. And to me, it's kind of a cool human mechanism and not necessarily something to be guilty about as far as the addiction perspective of it goes. So long as maybe you're taking into account some of the stuff that you just got done talking about Mischka, which is like, are you prioritizing some of the other things that are important, like your relationship or in your case, the book that you're writing and your band and some of this other stuff? So I just think, similar to you, that sometimes this stuff gets simplified way, way too much.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was thinking while I was listening to you, too, that you can. If you're in shape, you can go out and run 10 miles and you have to expend some effort, but you get that sort of rosy feeling.

Without.

Going through an emotional gulag. And to do some of the events that we do of, you know, running 50 or 60 miles or doing an Ironman, I don't think. And correct me if I'm wrong, because you would know better than anybody, but I don't think there's any way to do an event that's that sustained for that long without having at least one sustained period there where you're like, I hate this. I'm tired and hurt, and I feel horrible. I mean, am I wrong?

No, no, everybody, you know, I've heard it described as the dark place, you know, as the black hole, as you know. But, yeah, I mean, especially when you're talking about a sprint triathlon. Yeah, maybe not. But, yeah, with an Ironman or even a marathon, in many cases, you do get to a point where it really is just mind over body. Your entire brain wants to shut down your body and your subconscious and your survival mechanisms are beginning to kick in and they're beginning to tell you to stop. I think that in some cases, that's where some of these same chemicals that we just got done talking about, like a lot of these endorphins and opioids and cannabinoids and, you know, dopamine and serotonin and all this stuff, that's what keeps you going in a time like that. And so, yeah, I agree, there. There is no time or there is no Ironman where I don't think anyone has ever just kind of kind of breezed through the whole thing.

Yeah. And, you know, for me, that's why I started running distance, is because the, I drank because I was depressed and because I was in pain. And those are the things that I feared the most, was feeling sad and feeling pain. And alcohol made that better at first to go out and to sign up to run a 50 miler and then go out and do it. Even in the best circumstances, even on my best day, there's a significant portion of that time where I'm in pain and I'm depressed. And that's why I do it, man, is to go out and like, dance a long slow dance with the thing that I fear the most. Because when you can go and do that and just say, you know, there's a monster in the closet. All right, I'm going to go open the closet door, get in the closet with the monster and close the door. Yeah, you can go there and do that. Have seven minutes in heaven with your, with your darkest fear. When you walk out of there, you're a stronger person for it, you know, and, you know, and that's why I do it, and that's why I try to keep doing things that scare me, is because I know that, you know, you can't live your life in fear of fear. Yeah, that's a horrible way to live.

I think it's a great point, though. So you went from four and a half miles and then you did. And I have a picture of you that I'm going to put up here on the show notes for this podcast of you, like, covered in tattoos, running through the forest. You eventually ended up doing an ultra run, right?

Yeah, I actually, I did my. Did a 50k before I did a marathon.

Wow.

That's how I do things.

It's a little backwards. So what'd you end up doing? You just like go from four and a half miles and start training more and find out about ultra running and run or what got you sucked into ultra running?

Well, I, you know, I mean, after I ran four and a half miles, I was like, that's, that's amazing. I deserve a medal for that. Nobody ever did that. And I found out that lots of people do that every day. And so I was like, well, let's see if I can do more, you know, and I went, I looked around for maybe like a seven mile race. You know, there aren't very many seven mile races. So the next thing was a half marathon. So I was like, okay, you know, so I signed up for a half marathon and I trained for it as much as I could. And I went into it feeling like I totally wasn't ready and totally wasn't trained. It was just. And my goal was just to finish. And then once I got to like 10 miles and I was still running, I was like, well, you know, I was like looking at the timers and I was like, well, maybe I can beat two hours. Maybe I can get in at like 1:59. That would be amazing. And I ran it in like 1:47 and I didn't collapse across the finish line. I was still running. And I was like, I could run more. If I'm still running this fast at the end of a half marathon, I could run more. And then I just sort of kept. I just kept stretching my distance and trying to run longer and longer. And then for my birthday on February 17th, I planned to run 16 miles and it took way longer than I thought it was going to take. And then I checked the route when I came back and it was 21 miles. And I was like, well, if I dad, I can do a marathon. So I signed up for the muddy marathon, which is this just ridiculous sort of you're running through a swamp up a mountain. And I was on my feet for like eight hours and got like 18 miles and got like horribly lost. And at one point was walking through mud up to my thighs and finally DNF'd. And I felt horrible. And then the next week, the next weekend I went out and ran my first 50k.

Nice.

And I felt better after I got that in. One thing I do want to say before I forget because I was thinking about this. A friend of mine has one of her Facebook likes is Death before dnf. I think that's so much bullshit.

And.

It makes me angry.

Why is that?

Well, for a lot of that's an addict's mindset.

Yeah, well, it's an addict to the point of damage. Or, you know, let's put it this way. I had thought about this actually a couple weeks ago when I was racing in Japan and the bike course was just nuts and there were athletes, you know, 1500 athletes shoved into a four lap course on a single lane. And it was just white knuckle bike the whole time. And you know, I thought several times during this race, I shouldn't be out here. I've got two five year old boys at home who need me and if I go down, you know, I could die. You know, there was some traffic on the course and stuff and I mean, it's a great race, it was well organized and I think that ultimately nobody really got seriously hurt during the race. But yeah, I think you can get to a point where dropping out of a race versus dying or seriously hurting yourself. There is certainly a point where that addiction can become negative for sure.

I was pacing my friend Luis from the long run during The Florida Keys 100, maybe a month and a half ago. And at mile 80, I did the thing that no pacer is supposed to do. And I said, I said, lou, you've had it, this race is over, you should stop. And you know, ultra runners, you know, would, would. I think a lot of them want to choke me for that because that's the last thing as a pacer that you're supposed to do is because at all costs, you're supposed to keep your runner off beat and moving forward. But here's the thing, man. Like we, it was, it was 8am in the morning. He'd been running for 25 hours. We were at mile 80, another 20 miles to go. It had been way hotter and way harder than either one of us had expected. He, he was just chafing himself to death. And he was at a point where he would walk three or four steps and then have to stop and then walk three or four steps and then stop. And it was going to take six hours or more to do this last 20 miles. I just felt strongly that it wasn't going to prove anything because we know that he can run a hundred miler and that he can run a mountainous 100 miler because he has. And all it was going to do was put our lives in danger the next day when we had an eight hour drive to get home. And you know, as it was, you know, we got back to the hotel room, you know, like at mile 80, I was like, we have to stop. I'm leaving you if you don't stop. And he said, no, I'm not stopping. And he went out and did another two miles that took him an hour to cover two miles. And then he. Yeah, and then, and you know, my heart goes out to the guy because I mean, what a warrior, you know what I mean? To be in that much pain and moving that slowly and still gutted out for another two miles. But then I got, you know, two and a half hours of sleep at the hotel room and then we had to drive eight hours to get home. And during that drive, I was hallucinating. I was openly hallucinating. When I looked at the, like the satellite navigation thing, I saw the screen for Mario Brothers I saw a goldfish tank. Yeah. Like vivid hallucinations just from exhaustion and, you know, he's a father. And for us to continue doing that and get a 36 hour finish and yeah, he finished and you know, good job. And then for us to die in a car accident on the way home, like, man, what a banal, horrifying, stupid, and totally avoidable death, you know, so, yeah, if, you know, if you're feeling sad and you have your feet hurt and it's hot. Yeah, you know, you know, pull your socks up and keep going, you wuss. You know, tough it out. You know, it's hard for a reason. It's challenging because we want a challenge. If, you know, if your itbs is so bad that you can't walk or you can't stand or you're bleeding through your shoes or, you know, I mean, and things are rapidly going downhill, throw in the towel, man. To do Ironmans and to do ultramarathons, we're pushing ourselves to the very limit of human endurance. You're doing something like that. The failure rate is high. It's a part of life. Don't let it ruin you.

Yeah. Well, Mischka, this has been super, super interesting and I really want people to go out and grab your book and read it because you've got more really cool perspectives and just a fun story in there. But what's next for you? What's kind of on your radar aside from writing this new book and apparently from what it sounds like training less. Do you have your eyes set on anything else that you want to achieve from a running standpoint?

Yeah. I mean, Rich Roll and I were talking trash to each other and sort of signed ourselves up to do 100 miler. So I really look forward to doing that with him at some point. It's tough because both of our schedules are pretty, pretty convoluted. But, you know, we said we'll do it and we'll get it done. I'm totally grateful to you for being gracious enough to say that you would give me pointers training for a triathlon. So I definitely, especially the house I got in California is just on some beautiful hills, so I may actually treat myself to a good road bike at some point. And, you know, I got to get that done. Mostly I just, I want to learn to. I want to learn to train smarter. And instead of having concrete goals of, you know, running 100 miler or running a triathlon or running an Ironman or something like that, I would just want to get to a level where I have the energy that I had when I was a kid of, you know, like waking up and riding your bike and skateboarding all day and going swimming and then playing badminton or volleyball or, you know, whatever, Frisbee running around all night long and then waking up the next day and doing it again. I just want to get back to that level of fitness where I can do it. Nice.

Nice. Well, I'm sure that just because of the controversial nature of what we talked about that people are going to have some comments, some questions, some feedback, some thoughts. So if you have your own thoughts on exercise and addiction, whether you think exercise is a positive addiction, whether you think it's something that people with addictive personalities are drawn to, whether you have your any perspective that you have, I'd encourage you to head over to BenGreenfieldFitness.com where you'll find the show notes for this episode and leave your thoughts there for either Mischka or myself. And over there, I'll also put a cool picture of Mischka doing his run and a link to his book, the Long Run as well, which is a hefty, I believe, like $1.99 over on Amazon. So grab that, check that out, too. And Mischka, thanks for coming on the call today, man. This was fun.

Ben, thank you so much for having me, man. It's a real, real honor to do this with you.

All right, folks, until next time, this is Ben Greenfield and Mishka Chabaly signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com visit BenGreenfieldFitness.com for even.

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