Season 1 | Episode 1 | The RT Dialogue with Co-Hosts Lance Ahl & Rhett Smith

What's up, Lance?

Hey, Rhett. It's good to see you again.

Yeah. You want to tell people what's going on and what happened to us?

Yeah, man. You know, I think as we are trying to become the best, we must embrace that sometimes we are not. You know what I mean?

Yes. Yes. Well, you and I got into our pain cycle yesterday, and so this is round two, take two of the RT Dialogue.

We're excited to have everybody here today to talk about Restoration Therapy and how we're applying it to therapy. I think, you know, you kind of came up with this idea we should start connecting with our community a little bit better. And so I'm glad to be here with you to talk about restoration therapy and what it looks like in the room. Yeah, yeah.

And there's a lot of. I mean, we admit there's a lot of podcasts.

Yes.

There's lots of noise online. So I think our hope was, let's create a dialogue, this RT dialogue, to highlight the work that's being done, the RT community, to talk about it, to bring other voices on. You and I are kind of the two people who were talking about this, decided to step up and do it. But I think our hopes long term is that we can lay some groundwork for other people to maybe take on others, what we'd call, like, seasons of the RT Dialogue. And so it's not the Rhett and Lance Show.

Yeah. I mean, thinking about the Rhett and Lance show versus the RT Dialogue, I think there's a clear winner there. I mean. Yeah, like, this would be, I think, delving, learning from all the voices that are out there that are practicing this therapy probably is a little bit more exciting.

Yeah. And tell people, I like the. The name. Tell them why you came up with RT Dialogue as maybe, like, the name of the podcast and the channel that we're going to begin this dialogue. Dialogue on.

There it is. See, it's just so easy. So RT Dialogue is. It comes from one of the big first meetings that we had up in Pepperdine, talking about restoration Therapy and kind of like how we're playing it out, how we're doing it in the room. Kind of the future of Restoration Therapy was called RT Dialogue, which later we're getting ready to celebrate the RT summit. But the RT dialogue was kind of that first meeting, and it was kind of a group of. I think it was 12 to 20 of us. We were all together in a room, and we were dialoguing and just talking about, hey, this is what I'm seeing. In the room. This is what I'm recognizing. How can we do this better? You know, and there's some really historical moments that happened there, which I'm sure we will talk about later on in the podcast. But, yeah, just. That's where RT dialogue comes from. And, you know, the. The hope is that, you know, therapy can feel lonely. I think therapy, we get stuck in a rut. And the more that we dialogue about how we do therapy, and especially the beautiful therapy of restoration therapy is, you know, kind of like, as we talk about it, there's something that allows us to get better.

Yeah. What we're trying to think about this yesterday, what year was RT dialogue that take place? Do you remember?

I. I really want to say it was 2014. That's. That's the number I'm leaning on. But, you know, just like, I could be wrong.

Yeah. And, you know, I'd love to hear. It's interesting. You and I were a part of the same communities for a long time doing some of the same work, but didn't really know each other until, like, the. Really the intersection of restoration Therapy here. So tell people a little bit about, like, what is the work that you're doing, you know, day in and day out, and how did you come into Restoration Therapy? What was your journey to get there, essentially.

Yeah. So right now I run a therapy center. I'm. I'm the director of the Restoration Therapy center here in San Diego. It's where we reign. And we have 13 therapists that are all trained in restoration therapy. So I talk about restoration therapy all day, every day. And yeah, we all. We are of that mind. So, you know, when it comes to talking about our pain and pee cycles, we're always dialoguing and finding that regulation, that. That beautiful thing of self regulation in the moment after a difficult session. But that's. That's where I am today. The way I got there was, you know, for me, I had started out at Fuller, you know, I think outside at fuller in from 2003 to 2007 for my master's of Divinity. When were you there?

I started at Fuller, actually at the extension campus in Phoenix in 98. I was working at Grand Canyon University in the admissions office, and I started doing classes and working on my mat and then decided to do the MDIV. And so in 2001, I moved to the Fuller campus, and I actually lived in an apartment right there that was. They. They've moved it since then. It's a historic building, is where the new library is, lived on campus and completed my MDIV in 2003 and then began my MFT work in 2005, graduate in 2007. So there's definitely overlap of uni's journey there.

Yeah, that's so crazy to think about. Our. We're just right there, I think. You know, you were at Bel Air Press and as the college pastor, and I remember a lot of my friends enjoyed learning from you there. But, yeah, I think so. I had gotten my M. Div. At Fuller, and I had been working as a missions pastor, and I had gotten to travel a lot of places. And I found that the thing that I really love most is working with people in the room. Um, I would have parishioners come in the room. They'd be struggling. They don't. They wouldn't know what to do in their marriage or their lives or they were feeling lost. And I always wanted to help them, but I really struggled. I didn't know how to help them. I wanted to help them, but I just didn't know what to do. So I decided to come back to Fuller to get a marriage family therapy degree so I could help people. And that journey was. I felt kind of weird in. In there because I'd been working and doing things, and it felt like a lot of people were really young. And the kind of classic therapeutic approaches I didn't really connect with until Terry Hargrave walked in the room. And when this guy walked in the room, it just. It just changed everything for me. Right. The way he approaches therapy felt so authentic and real. It didn't feel so, like, reserved and. And back. But there. There was this engagement, and the words he was using wasn't psychobabble anymore. It was. It was things that connected right to my heart, you know, and, you know, from a Christian perspective, I. I was able to see, like, oh, this makes sense, like, about where I get lost my own life. And I could. I love the fact that it was less focused in on, you know, the things that you're doing and more about the things that are. That are underneath the surface. So I was really privileged. Terry offered his first live practicum training, which was basically where you would work with a co therapist, and Terry would watch us do therapy in the room. And so we'd be working with a client and helping them out, and eventually we would reach that point in time where we didn't know what to do anymore as a new thing.

Yeah.

Remember those days?

Yes. You know. You know, like, you know, you're about to. You're going down. Yeah. Things are crashing around you. And you know, there's somebody, hopefully with wisdom behind that one way mirror that is about to come through the door and save the day, which would happen.

And Terry would walk in like a wizard and he would just know exactly what to do, how to hold the person, how to, how to move the room, how to connect. And I just love that about Terry. And I think that's kind of some of the hopes of what we're going to do here is to show the beauty of what restoration therapy actually looks like. It's not just this behavioral model, but it is a. It is a total, total discipleship model that's all about, like coming alongside a person, helping them to walk in the way. So I hope I'm answering the question.

Yeah, no, no, that's great. I just, I think it's important for people to just kind of get a little background on how you came in to this work that you love. And I know the people that we bring on this podcast. We want to hear from other people too. Like, how did they come into rt? I, you know, myself, it's interesting. Even though our journeys were kind of around the same time, I was in a completely different journey. I was, as you said, I was pastoring the college group at Bel Air Presbyterian Church. I had lots of friends in the NFT program. I loved interacting with MFT students when I was an MDiv student there at Fuller and finished my MDiv and I'm pastoring at Bel Air, and I remember a really particular difficult season at Bel Air where a lot of the students were just going through really difficult times. And I wanted to help them, but it was above. I would basically my skill set and my, my scope of competency. And so I would refer them out to therapists in the area. And I just decided at one point, with the encouragement of some other friends like Red, I think you'd really like this MFT program. And I had been a psychology major, undergrad, and didn't really expect to end up in theology, which I love, so decided to go to the MFT program in 05, finished in 07, and we were living in California still, and we're gonna move to Texas. So I took like a. A year off. I didn't do any hours or anything. I was just finishing my pastoral work at Bel Air, and my wife and I moved to the Dallas area in 2008. And I'm talking to my friend Todd Sandell, who at the time was run. Who was a Fuller grad. He's running a clinic in Georgia. And he's like, rhett, I'm doing these marriage intensives in Texas. And he's like, they're unbelievable. And he's like, they're groundbreaking. No one's really doing them. You should come check them out. And so I'm like, well, tell me more about that. So he tells me about this place called the Hideaway up in Paduro Canyon outside Amarillo, and says, you know, I think you should meet the people who are involved there, which is Steve and Rajan Trafton, who are the founders and who oversee that. And then he wanted me to meet Terry and Sharon Hargrave, which I had not met because I graduated no. 7, and Terry had just started coming in after that, so I didn't have him as a professor. So in the fall of 2010, I go up to this marriage intensive and I'm sitting what is third chair. So I'm not one of the two therapists, you know, up on the fireplace there doing the work with the four couples. I'm kind of in the back, which.

Hoping help them to, like, imagine this because there's something magical about the hideaway experience.

Yeah. If you picture this, like ranch sitting up on the Palo Duro Canyons, beautiful canyon there in Texas, second largest canyon in the U.S. i believe. You know, though, the Grand Canyon makes it look small, correct?

Yes.

We're sitting there in this one room, beautiful room with a fireplace up front. You got two therapists who are doing co therapy sitting at the. On the hearth of the fireplace. And you got four couples in the room who don't know each other and are probably scared and anxious to be in this room for four days together doing really intensive marriage work. And that's the scene. And I'm sitting in the background kind of next to a couple, thinking, I'm not going to. I'm just going to watch and observe. I'm not getting involved. I have no clue what's going on. And we are in deep, like those first couple of days, like long days in the room. Eight, eight plus hours. We eat meals together, just great food. But they start asking me questions to participate. Like, the therapists are like, rhett, what do you think about this? Or Rhett, can you work with this couple? So I'm in it. And in that experience, I learn about this thing called the Pain and Peace cycle, which I had never heard of. And I. It just profoundly changed my life. And I remember getting on the plane, flying out of Amarillo. My wife picks me up at Love Field there in Dallas, and we Go to breakfast. And I remember, I remember the breakfast we were eating at Breadwinners Cafe down in Dallas and she just picked me up the airport. I came out for this like, mountaintop experience and we got into a little bit of like, conflict over something simple. And I was like, you know what? I've been with couples for four days. I'm gonna walk through my pain and peace cycle. I'm gonna say my four steps. So I remember telling my wife, this is what I'm feeling right now. This is how I cope. This is my truth, and this is what I'm gonna do differently. And she's looking at me like, what's going on? And it engaged us in this conversation. All of a sudden that this, this conflict that was, was bubbling up, we were able to talk about and actually resolve and, and work through over breakfast. And that would have lasted days and, and that was a moment that RT like really clicked for me. And so I was on staff of the Hideaway for about four years, working with a lot of different therapists and did training and my certification in Level 1 and Level 2 with Terry during that time as well. Flying to the Pasadena campus and having him actually watch me over video screen in my office in Dallas work with couples. That, that was really intimidating. You know, just, I mean, it's great, but, you know, it's like intimidating. And I just, I feel really fortunate to call Terry and Sharon. Close friends and mentors have really helped me grow as a therapist. And I think it was around 2017, maybe Terry asked me to come speak at that, that first RT summit, I guess, on anxiety and fear. And you know, I had some, you know, understanding of, of the, that work at the time. But I look back and I'm just really thankful that he gave me the opportunity to, to do that. And that's one of the things I think I love about the RT community is that it is full participation. If you want to participate, you, you doesn't matter what skill you have or what level you come in. I think Terry and Sharon understand that the way that we grow as therapists is to put people out there. And no matter what level, I think there's a certain level of humility, I think, in the community and coming from Terry and sharing that wants everybody to participate. And so that's what I love and that's how I came to it and that's how I've gotten to know you a lot better over the last few years. Was fortunate enough in the last few years as well to co develop anxiety intensive With Terry and Sharon and Tanner. And then you're working on that currently, I think, in your doctorate, working through, thinking through anxiety intensive. So that's what brings me to rt. And I'm just looking forward to going a lot deeper over these next few years with people who also love this model of therapy.

It has so much to offer, you know, as simple as it is to, to like, to. To explain and to look at, but the. The way that it just. A lot. Since it's a discipleship model, it's. It's kind of a. One that allows for us to really go far and throughout life. Yeah.

Yeah. And I know you and I could say a lot about this and we'll unpack this more with other guests and get into more stories and, And. And hear more about the development and just some of the. Yeah, I mean, I love the stories going back in RT and some of the big shifts, I think that. That have happened. But when you think about the RT dialogue and this podcast, what are some of your hopes? What do you. For those who are listening, what do you think they're gonna find on this podcast? What. What are you hoping?

Yeah, I mean, one is, you know, it's a lonely world out there for a lot of therapists. I mean, not. We're. I feel fortunate that I run a center where we. That are connected, but when I talk to other therapists that are out there, you know, with their practices, they kind of feel a little bit alone. And so I do hope that as people listen, that they'll be able to feel like they're part of the crew, you know, and.

Yeah.

That they're. That there's a chance for them to be able to engage as well. And, you know, I just. I think the beauty of RT is that it has so much interactivity to it where, you know, the, the daring to get up, you know, the, The. The moments to. To hold. And I, I think as we talk about it together that, you know, particularly, you know, the, the nuances that we will probably find ourselves in the therapy room doing much better work. So that's. That's probably my big hope. I mean, obviously we have so many cool RT friends as well that are out there that are going to be joining us. So I just. We. We have a awesome community. So I, I'm excited for them as well. How about you, Rhett? What are you stoked about?

Yeah, you know, I'm envious because one thing I didn't say is I. I'm in private practice, so I'm a. You Know, besides some colleagues that we have, like office suites kind of together, you know, in the same space, we're all in our own practice. And so I'm. I'm alone most of the day, and I've really miss just interacting with other therapists and growing and, you know, RT is a community that doesn't just talk the talk, they walk the walk. You know, I'm on the receiving end of my own journey of restoration that the RT community has participated in and has changed my life. And so I, as someone who does therapy day in and day out, I'm looking forward to connecting more with other therapists and being a part of, I think, expanding the knowledge base and the research and the practices that are part of the RT community. Because we are a young community. Yeah. When you compare it to other models of therapy. Right. And so it just allows us opportunity to do. Do a lot of cool things. And. And I'm excited about bringing on a different guest probably each episode and to lend a voice to rt, to hear people from different backgrounds, different ways of doing therapy. Some have been doing therapy a long time with rt. Some are brand new. So I'm excited to do that. I'm excited. We're recording this on audio, but it's also will be on video. And so as best as we can do, maybe do even some live demonstrations. I know you like to get up and like, experiment in the room, so maybe we'll be watching you on video, actually do some modeling of specific interventions or things, you know, or ways that you're using rt.

Yeah, yeah. I think the live demonstration part is definitely exciting for me. I think if people could listen to the podcast and then say, listen and hear one thing or two things that we talk about and say, I'm going to use that today, I would be so excited.

Yeah, for sure. What is, you know, one thing I was thinking about too, whether a person's new to RT or been here for a while. And again, we'll unpack this over the course of episodes. But how would you like in a nutshell, as best you can. I'm gonna put this on you because you're the. You're the doctoral student. How do you best define what restoration therapy is even?

Yeah, I think, you know, when we look at restoration therapy, it is a evolution of a lot of therapy that has come together. One of the beauty, beautiful things about Terry is he knows all of the greats when it comes to. When it comes to therapy. You know, he. He knows Jay Haley, Chloe Madonnas. He's, you Know, he, Bosermann was, you know, his right hand man who's the writer of Contextual Therapy. So I think that's cool. Parts about Restoration Therapy and what Terry has done with it is he has found a beautiful way to put it all together and packaged a therapy that has these kind of three major things and we'll probably go deeper with all of them as we talk together throughout our dialogue. But you know, one is attachment theory, where that's our. How we understand ourselves and the world around us. Another is emotional regulation, which, you know, is this probably this new big thing that's coming out of learning how to calm ourselves and to when, when that activity is going on, like how do we actually shift it? And then I love the conduit of mindfulness and mindfulness is this, this ability to, to look at ourselves, you know, to understand ourselves from a, from a lens that doesn't have judgment but just, just is able to look at ourselves. And as we put those three things together, that's where we get the wonderful components of Restoration Therapy.

Yeah. And I think for me, like what flows out of all of that is the practice of through that work, identifying your pain and peace cycle and then walking through your four steps like this isn't just a theory, you know, that sounds nice and we can read in books, but there's a real tangible practice piece that I think you and I feel like makes it so unique.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that uniqueness of we all have a different pain and peace cycle, but we all, you know, like, it's. I don't know, it's just, to me it's, it's very humanistic in that way of like it honors every person's story. You know, it doesn't put you in a box, but it's just seeking to understand you and where you're coming from and then call you up to the greatness that's inside of you.

Yeah. And I think one things that you and I have been able to observe as part of this community is there are friends of ours using this model in a lot of different modalities and areas, I guess of therapy. We have good friends using it with adolescents, we have friends using it and around issues of sex therapy, lots of trauma work. Anything else you want to say about that? Anything that you've kind of noticed are kind of cool ways that people are using it currently or about to kind of engage it more fully.

Yeah, I think I really like the cultural elements. I think, I think that's really fascinating the way that we all, like, are coming from different, you know, ethno groups and that, and. But there's still this commonality around that. I also think, you know, from a spirituality lens, that really excites me about. About it, the parenting part and, you know, developmentally and, you know, the forgiveness stuff. I think of all the stuff that's probably rocked me the most, I think Terry's work on forgiveness that came from Paul Tillich's original work on forgiveness. Just, you know, there's just so much to delve into with restoration therapy, so. Yeah. And of course, you know, the couple's work is kind of like the. The, you know, the meat and potatoes.

Yeah. Yeah. I've noticed a lot of my colleagues and other areas have gotten away from couples work. Don't like couples work anymore. Don't do couples. As difficult as it can be, RT has really given me a way to, like, organize and structure my couples therapy in some really powerful ways. That's been really great. And, you know, I work with I. As you do clients who come from a strong faith background and those who do not. And I've been able to use RT effectively with anybody, but I know. And maybe this is from you and I's m. Div. Backgrounds, too, and pastoral backgrounds. I think one things that we hope in this RT dialogue, too, is to engage deeper, even some of the theological integration pieces with restoration therapy.

It's just as ripe, you know, it just has so much like, you know, this. Once I learned about the. The therapy model and I started reading through scripture again, you know, it. It. Things just came to life in a different way.

Yeah.

Whether. Talk about the old self and the new self when it, you know, there's elements of, like, how, you know, where. Where all the stuff comes from that makes us go sideways. Just all of a sudden, things made a lot more sense.

Yeah. I just. Yeah, it's good stuff. I thought, let's close this first episode.

Yes.

With maybe talking about right now. What's. What's one thing you're, like, super excited about when it comes to rt? Maybe something you're, like, doing in the room right now.

Yeah.

Or practicing or thinking about. I know you got a lot of. I know you have a lot of. A lot of irons in the fire, but what sticks out to you?

Okay, so this is. I was thinking about this this morning, and I was thinking about, you know, working with a client in the room, and one of the thoughts I had about was this last week talking through our pain cycles from a musical perspective, you know, and right so if you had, like, a playlist, you know, that would. That would really bring out your pain cycle. Like, where the cry of your heart, you know, the things that you're going through. What would. What would those songs be? You know, we had a. Had a conversation about the song by Cheat Trick. You know I want you to love me.

You know I want you to want me.

Want you to want me.

Yes, there you go. Yes. I use that. I say that a lot in therapy. This idea. We all want to be wanted, and then all of a sudden, people are singing Cheap Trick in the office right now.

Did you know that song is actually written to his father?

I did not.

Isn't that crazy?

Oh, man. Talk about attachment, right? Yeah.

So anyways, I. I think I. I like to encourage my clients, like, after we've written up their pain cycle or pee cycle on the. On the glass, and they're looking at their pain cycle and say, so what song would you attach to this? You know, or what genre would be here? And to have them play around with, thinking to make their own playlist and then send it.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So do you. Well, hold on. I want to. I want to ask about this for a second.

Okay.

So is your hope that some clients will, during the week, maybe have a list that exemplifies, like, their pain cycle that they'll play sometimes, and also, like a playlist for their peace cycle? Like. Yeah. I can't let you off without telling me more about that. I'm just curious.

Yeah. I mean, so if. If you were to put a playlist together, like, for instance, you know, for me, I think I come from the 80s and 90s era.

Yeah.

For my. My growing up. And I would, you know, if I were to put my playlist together, you know, and I'm looking at my pain cycle, I. I would, like, the first, like, pain song for me would be Beck. I'm a loser. You know that.

You know that.

You know, it's kind of this, you know, has this beat to it and, you know, just kind of, like, doesn't care about you, you know? I'm a loser, baby so why don't you kill me? So it's like, I don't need you to. To tell me I'm a loser and that struggle that goes on underneath of him. So I would have them kind of list out a whole bunch of songs.

Yeah.

And we would kind of listen to those songs, and that would give us a little bit of. So now where does this. What does this song remind you of? Does that take you back to. And maybe I might tap into a painful moment from that person's life, and I. And I can help. They'll say, you know, yeah, that dance that my girlfriend didn't come to with me, you know, and that ended our relationship. Like, whoa. So tell me about that kid that was at the dance and his girlfriend chose not to come. And we. We would be able to talk about that moment and. And to say, now if you could go to. Back to that dance and you could be with him in that place where his girlfriend's not coming.

Yeah.

He. He knows the relationship's over in a very hurtful, painful way. You know, what would you want to say to him? You know, we could do some reparenting work or. Yeah, you know, you. Or you can say, what song would you want him to hear? You know, you know, maybe we play a little rem. Everybody hurts sometimes. But anyways, I. I think the power of music is absolutely shifts things.

Yeah.

Particularly if you get people to sing in the room, which is another step of courage. But.

Well, for a moment there, you know, you and I are on video. I was like, I was back in the room with you there for a second, like, thinking about that stuff, so that's cool, man. I mean, this is what. This is what we want to talk about. We want to hear what people are doing and. And how they're practicing. And, you know, that makes me think about. I could. That's. Maybe some things I can do in the room with some clients coming up here.

Yeah.

If we were. If we were a fancy NPR podcast, which we're not, I would have had Beck playing in the background as you were talking.

Oh, the outro.

Yeah. You know, but people will have to be content with our lo fi RT dialogue.

Lo fi for the win. Hey, why don't you tell everyone maybe a little trick that you've been trying out or. You know, I don't like to use the word trick. I think it's right, the song. But, you know, when it comes to, like, delving deeper in your own life or with others in the therapy room, what are some of the things that you're trying to engage in right now?

Yeah, it's something recently in the last couple of weeks, and I think I've been doing this maybe already without a name to it, but I've been thinking about it more in the last couple of weeks. I actually just finished, I think, for the third or fourth time, and I'll put up here on video. You can see it, the. The way of the Heart by Henry Nouwen.

Nice.

Which. Which, by the way, when I was reading Terry and Sharon's book, the Pain and the Five Days to the New Marriage.

Yeah.

Is that. Or the New Self. Yeah. They tell a story about Nouwen, and I'm like, wait, wait. What is. Wait a second. You knew Henry Nolin? Like, I didn't know that. And so I asked Terry about it one time at a workshop, and he's like, yeah. And he was telling me stuff, and I was like, wow. So now in this book talks about solitude, silence, and prayer. And one of the things in prayer, he talks about the importance of, like, essentially kind of short, repetitive prayer has a way of. Kind of calming the mind and centering us versus getting into a prayer where we have to, like, have all these right words and. And language and be thinking about new ways to express stuff. And, you know, he looks at the Desert Fathers and some of the ancient classic prayers. One might be the J. Jesus prayer. You know, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. And how that can help settle us in a sense, almost. He didn't use this word, but emotionally regulate us. It can. He talks about help us move from our head to our hearts. And so I was thinking about. There's a verse I've been meditating on for about 10, 15 years. I use it with clients. It's Psalm 46, 10, be still and know that I'm God. And so I'll have clients in the room, breathe in, like, through their nose. This idea of be still and then exhale, know that I'm God. They're not saying it, they're just. They're thinking it. You know what I'm saying? Just be still and then exhale, know that I'm God. Is that as a way to kind of regulate their bodies and minds? And it's short, right? What is that? Be still. Know that I am God. Like, seven words. So it's concrete, it's simple. And I was like, oh. And I was reading now, and I'm like, this can help people really just move things from their head to their heart, I think. And so I think in the therapy room, as I'm working with clients, I've been really trying to think over the last several weeks of if they're. If they're coming from a faith background, maybe really concrete, simple prayers. If they don't come from a faith background, maybe just a phrase or mantra, and to really encourage them to, over the course of next several months, just say that over and over. Again, pray that over and over again and not be. You know, because I think as. As humans, we're always looking for the next best thing, the next shiny bullet that will solve the problem instead of just focusing on one thing.

Come on.

And so now it just really reminded me of, I think, the importance of just a singular focus on something over time. And RT is that way. I think we. You know, one of the things about the hideaway experience that I learned is people would leave the hideaway, and they would sometimes call or follow up in therapy, and you'd ask them about their four steps and be like, what are you talking about? What four steps? And it was. It's the one thing you're supposed to practice that we don't do. Right. Because I think if it doesn't work right away, we look for something new. And so, I don't know. Reading the Way of the Heart just reminded me the importance of the simplicity of a phrase or prayer or simple steps that repeated over time has a way of moving from our heads to our hearts and transforming us. And we don't even have to believe it at the time. It's almost like we. We think our way into a new way of feeling, if that makes sense, instead of like, well, I don't feel this way, so I don't want to do it. It doesn't matter. It's like engaging. This simple work transforms us inside out. And so I've been thinking about that a lot the last few weeks and just trying to keep it simple with clients, with prayers, phrases, mantras, the four steps, and making sure that we're doing that work. And I know I'm not alone. I'm sure people in the RT community have a lot of ways that they're doing things like that, and that's why we want to bring people on and kind of hear different people's practices and experiences.

Yeah, I think that's just awesome. I think that repetition, too. I think that's one of the big things Terry talks about, is, you know, the more you repeat. The more you repeat these truths over yourself, the.

The.

The more you start stepping into it. So I just love that you're doing that, Rhett. And I think. Yeah, I'd actually love for you to take us into that right now, actually, to just, you know, like, just give us a little bit of feel to. To just invite us all to breathe it in, just to be still and to know. Yeah.

All right. Lance, you are the master of experiential practices.

Can't help it.

Yeah. I think what we'll do is this. We'll. We'll. We'll end the podcast this way. How does that sound for the first RT dialogue?

Let's do it.

We'll just. If you are listening or watching this podcast, I think I would encourage you just to close your eyes for a minute or so. Here. Close your eyes. Maybe feet on the ground, solid. Fill that solid ground below you. Hands on your knees, or maybe hands folded in your lap. And as you're seated, or maybe you're laying down, and as your feet are on the floor or your hands are folded, just want you to notice your body and maybe see if you can identify where there's any tension, anything that feels different or feels off. And I want you just to take a minute to. To notice that. And as I was saying, I've really, over the last 10, maybe longer, 15 years, been drawn to this passage in the Psalms, Psalm 46:10, where the Psalmist says, be still, know that I am God. Be still and know that I am God. And so as you're sitting there or as you're laying down, wherever you find yourself, I want you to take a moment first just to breathe in your nostrils. Breathe in, hold it for a second, and then breathe out. You can probably hear me on the microphone. Do that. So take a minute to breathe in. And as you're breathing in and as you're holding for a second, and as you're breathing out, find that rhythm. And when you're ready, see if you can incorporate that idea of be still, breathing in, breathe in, be still and hold and then exhale that. Know that I am God. And just hear that voice in your head saying, be still. And hear the voice in your head saying, know that I am God. And I'm just going to be silent for 30 seconds. As you're doing that on your own, It. Couple more times, breathe in and breathe out and breathe in. And breathe out. And just for the sake of our time, I'll have you. If you're listening or watching, just open your eyes for a second. Just kind of regroup and something simple. Lance, I think that things like that. I think you and I are hoping we can talk about practice here on this podcast and have people take it into their rooms. Whether it's therapeutic or clients listening, people listening can do it on their own at their homes.

Yeah, man, Rhett, I think I just feel so much relief in my heart and my soul as you took me into that, and I hope that everyone else can feel that, too. I think that being still is that commandment we can give to our bodies. And that sigh of relief of knowing that God is God is such a cool thing to do. And I'm looking forward to being able to connect with all these other therapists as we get to dialogue together. But thank you so much for leading us through that moment.

Yeah, it's been fun. It's going to be exciting. A journey ahead. Thank you everyone for listening to episode one of the RT dialogue, and we will have some exciting guests coming up.

Looking forward to it. God bless you. Cheers. Take care.

Cheers.