Season 1 | Episode 10 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Stephenie Lievense

What's up?

We're on.

Lance. Come on, give.

Hi, Steph.

What's up?

How are you? Good to be here.

So I love the. I love starting off with a bang, you know, and talking about amazing people. We have a legendary person here today. I am really excited. We have Stephanie Levines, who. To me. I think I met her.

Lance, I gotta correct you. I'm sorry, it's Stephanie Levens, but I don't know if we want us, man.

I'm already.

I think it just. You would want me to. I think.

I think I. I think you have to.

I. I think I have a reason.

Lance, I had you introduce her because I thought you knew how to pronounce the last name correctly. And now we're out of the gates, running.

I feel so unknown.

Gosh. I think it's okay.

It's such a hard one. It is such a hard one. Usually we get Levonse Avon.

Say, I still double check when I spell your name a lot. I still, like, double check to make sure I have it correctly. I feel like you and Nicole's is Sazowski.

Yeah. Yeah.

Two names. I'm always. I'm missing one letters.

I know.

I'm learning.

So how many times have I said it wrong? Did I say it wrong regularly, or is this my first time saying it wrong?

I have. I don't know. I'm. I would probably. I would probably not correct you most of the time, but because we're on, you know, live, I thought I'd let.

You know it's really important for everybody. I hate for them to call you incorrectly, like I just did.

It's okay. It's not that big of a deal. It's like Stevens leaving.

Like Stevens.

Yep.

Leaving's like Stevens.

You got it here.

And she is a legend. Even if you can't pronounce her name or you do it incorrectly, which many can't.

Yeah. My son's graduated as, you know, James Lavonce and William Lavendi or something like that. So that's very typical.

But I am excited to have you here. You and I go way back to Fuller with Megan. We just had her on. And I think you and I had the. You had, like, the coolest privilege, I think, at Fuller, to be, like, in the first practicum training, and you and Jeremy had the privilege of sitting next to Terry, watching Terry review video.

I know I. I was thinking about that as I listened to Megan and thinking about you, Lance. Just how stressful it was for those of you in the room doing Therapy in front of Terry and how happy I was to be sitting next to him, just listening to his thoughts and feelings about everybody and. And learning. And learning and learning. And I've continued to sit next to him ever since then. And I can't say enough about the gift that has been in my development as a therapist, but also as a person. You know, Terry's pretty. A pretty awesome guy.

I mean. Yeah. I mean, when it comes to all around, like, amazing people in the world. Terry Hargrave, great guy. Love him.

Yeah.

Just changed my life, you know?

You know, just a little bit of that, huh? Yeah. Did he. Did you know, he did an intervention on me that I think helped me more than 10 years of therapy had. So he did 10 minutes of therapy with me, and I. I was better than I had been after 10 years. So, anyway, yeah, he's amazing. Is amazing. And is Sharon. I mean. Yes. The powerhouse couple, right?

Yes. And Steph, you have a practice.

Yep.

In La Canada. Big fans of your practice. You got such a cool group team there. I love Estelle. She's. She comes to my consultation group a lot, and she's the best. Yeah, you got Tasha and Ben Ledek, and I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of other people, but those are the ones that it's been.

Letic, by the way, man, I'm just gonna mess with you on the names now, Lance.

I. Yeah, I'm just gonna see how bad I feel like I had to pronounce the H and Rhett's name now.

I was gonna say, do you even.

Know how to pronounce my name right?

Smith.

Hopefully this is entertaining for people, probably more for us.

But I only knew about the legend because everyone kept talking about the off ramp back at the RT dialogue, how the moment person in the room came for this idea of needing an off ramp. And that was you, Stephanie. And so I kind of knew about who you were before we actually met in person. So we're excited to unpack a lot of stuff today. And as Lance and I were talking, there's kind of a lot of different. Different directions we could go, but I thought, let's just start with what's been going on in your community the last few months and how you've navigated that.

Yeah, well, I. I think you're referencing the Eaton fires, which are. Yeah, we're. So La Canada is a little kind of suburb, kind of west and north of Pasadena and right next to Altadena, which is where a lot of the Eaton fire destruction happened about 9,000 homes were destroyed and our community was, you know, not very many more than that. That's more than half the homes and I live in Altadena, so that's, that's been a, that's been a really big deal here and definitely a, a place where we are helping our community come back to feeling safe in a world that is so in their face, unpredictable and unfair in, you know, in the now, myself included, my. My whole street burned down except for four houses, one of them being mine. And those only survived because my husband and my son and my brother in law, who. My husband and my brother in law are firefighters. They were able to borrow hose from a neighboring fire station, hook it up to the hydrant outside my house and put the fire out. So that is, it's one of the most unsafe times I've ever experienced. And probably the worst part was leaving my 20 year old son there to help his dad and my, and my brother in law. That was, that was pretty hard to drive away from anyway. So. Yes, and our community's been struggling so my center has been offering free or low priced therapy for folks who are impacted by the Eaton fire. And as you can imagine, a lot of the things that people are coming in to talk about is around safety, around how do I, how do I feel safe when out of nowhere everything that I owned is gone? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, Steph, I mean what a heroic story. I mean just the, just hearing about your, your husband and brother in law and your son, I mean just. I just can only imagine that experience of leaving them and, and all of that. And I mean, and then, I mean obviously your son, he already has like amazing stories to tell for the rest of his life but like now he gets another one.

I know.

And, but just to go through that whole experience.

Yeah.

Just really, you know, hits home. You know, I mean, I mean for lack of.

It was, it was pretty scary. Yeah. He, when I left, he was by himself. My husband and my brother in law hadn't arrived yet and their, the houses across the street were lighting on fire. So. And he said, Mom, I, you know, if we're thinking about predictability, openness and justice, he said to me, I will leave. He had his car running. He said, if it gets any worse, I will drive away. Which he ended up doing. He drove down the street, he drove south because it was getting too scary for him to be there by himself. But that's, that's sort of where we're maybe going to end up is that you can't trust the world. But you can trust people.

Yeah.

And there's safety in that. So I was able to drive away because I trust my son. He's reliable, predictable, dependable, open and fair. And I knew he would take care of himself. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. So there, there was.

I think that's, that's important to name, actually. You know, when we talk about safety and restoration therapy, you know, there's these like three, like big ideas that we talk about and you're naming them, so. And these are these big things that get broken. These are like the three things that are foundational to helping people, which, you know, when it comes to safety, you know, that's where we have trustworthiness. Those are the two big umbrella terms that we talk about in restoration therapy. And you know, the things that, that really help to have trustworthiness. You know, the first we talk about is that balance of give and take where things feel fair or just the second we usually talk about is predictability. And we were talking right before the, the debate on how predictable is we need and predictable or reliable? You know, we just use that term.

80.

Oh, yeah.

Between 80 and 90%.

Right.

You know, when we're talking about reliability and.

Well, that, that humans aren't even 100. Predictable or reliable.

Yeah.

Yeah. So we're going to blow it here and there. It's just important to know. And then finally, this idea around openness, you know, can I be real? Is. Is what I say to you congruent? You know, like, am I able to share that? And, and am I safe to hold a secret?

And am I, am I willing to be open? Am I willing to rely on other people and reach out for help and not isolate myself? That, that piece too.

Absolutely. I think our, you know, even our. Prior to this conversation, Stephanie, you were talking about emotional self regulation versus co regulation. And I'm wondering how that fits into if the world's unsafe. Right. But you also need people who are safe, but people aren't always predictably safe. So like, how do, how do. How are we supposed to navigate that as individuals? Like living in a world that feels unsafe and maybe the people around us at times feel unsafe too. I don't know. I'm curious what that looks like, if you can put some language around that or even.

Really? Yeah, I love that question. I think about that a lot. And maybe the very first thing that people have to do or that I had to do, I don't know if this will relate for the two of you guys, but is accept it's Accepting. Accepting that the world is not. Is not safe. It's not fair. It's not always predictable, Like, really coming to terms with that. That that is true. I mean, it's sort of depressing, but it's true. And. And I think what we see are people who try to micromanage and control every aspect of their world as though they could somehow, if they do the right thing, keep it safe, 100% safe. And that's just. It's just not possible. Fires come and destroy communities. Disease comes and takes people away. That. We love it. And no matter what you do, you can't stop it. So I think the first thing is this acceptance, kind of radical acceptance that the world is not safe and. And that people. That people are not perfect. Right. I think it's important to realize that people are safe. You. We've. We've got to surround ourselves with safe people. Does that make sense? Yeah, but. But that 85 to 90% safety is not. Is not nothing. That is. That's something you can depend on and rely on. And then from there, then from there, we can start looking at the places where we have empowerment, the places where we have choice, we have empowerment, we have connection. That's what makes it possible to take the next best step to move forward in the knowing that the world isn't safe.

Whatever big thing, when you think about.

This is getting too existential.

No, it's actually, you got us, like, thinking a lot about this.

Yeah. Okay.

Like, I mean, I'll let Lance just go headways and share, but, I mean, this is where a lot of anxiety comes from, when we want certainty in a world that's uncertain.

Yeah.

And so your idea of acceptance is, as you said, it's pretty radical. Radical acceptance is a. Is a very difficult thing. What are we gonna say, Lance?

I. I was. I was right there with you, Rhett, around this idea of, like, it. You know, I think sometimes we drive ourselves batty by trying to make our world safe and, you know, realizing and being able to accept, as you're saying, that we're not there. I think this is. When it comes to restoration therapy, this is one of the hard parts when we're doing truth work. Right. Because when we're doing truth work with our clients, one of the popular sayings is, you're safe. And. And we're trying to get them to, like, they want to say that they're safe. And that does not hold water, unfortunately.

Well, yeah. Unless it's connected to some other meaning for the client.

Yeah.

Saying things Like, I'm connected, might be more powerful. Right. I'm not alone. Because what happens is when once the world is unsafe and unpredictable, that you find you end up relying more on humans. You need more of that connecting piece. Because the idea is, no matter what happens, no matter what happens, I know I will be okay. Because I'm connected, meaning open, open, connected to other people. I have empowerment to make choices about what I'm going to do or not do. And I can always take another step. There's always choice. So. But what you're saying. Yeah, I. I'm with you. I'm with you. It's not easy, but I agree that just saying I am safe, you know, unless you've done a lot of work to put some meat behind that, it's sort of an empty statement.

Well, you said this came up a lot, Steph, Stephanie recently. Right. With some students are training. I mean.

Yeah.

Safety. And I know Terry has talked about this a lot.

Yes.

So it seems to be a critical point of.

I mean, it was exactly this question. I just did the level two. I'm training with Terry to be a level two trainer. Lance, I think you're doing that too, right.

Yes.

So, love that. I love training.

And it was hoping to hit level 8 eventually.

Well, I'm gonna go for level 10, so.

Oh, well, Rhett's already level 20.

Maybe we could do it together. That would be fun. Super fun. But that was one of the main questions was, we live in this unsafe world. How do we. How do we help our clients find safety? And Terry talked about predictability, openness and justice. And so. And that, you know, empowerment, the empowerment that comes with recognizing those things helps you take the next step towards keeping yourself safe, if that makes sense. But. Yeah, so how do we. It's acceptance and then tolerating. How do I tolerate that? Even in relationships, I'm only, you know, 80 to 90% safe.

Well, and I was thinking. I'm really thinking about this number. It seems like maybe in certain seasons of life, we have to show up more consistently. Even, like, it's even more critical, you know, Like I'm thinking about my own past, my own history, my own restoration work, where I can be not perfect, but there might be seasons that the people around me need me to be even more predictable or consistent than maybe I historically show up. And does that make sense? Like, totally. Seasons require a certain awareness that I have to show up in a person's life and even more consistent, predictable, absolutely trustworthy ways. Not that I can just coast it the rest of the time. But I might just like your son paying attention to the fire. I have to be like, more aware and diligent about.

Yes.

Showing up in this relationship in the way that this person needs me and that, you know, I wouldn't even. That's not even co. Regulation. It's just my duty to show up as a safe person, I think. And this person is dependent upon that in certain seasons, I guess.

Yep. It makes me think about having little kids.

Yeah.

You're. You. You are so much more required, really. We should be doing it all the time, but it's. It's much more impactful on little people that look at you and think you're. You are the safety. So what are you going to teach them about that?

The weirdest thing, man, to be entrusted with such a little person.

Yeah. And you're like God with skin on to them. Scary until they turn what, I don't know, 13.

You guys know more about that than I do.

Yeah. Rhett and I have. We. We're both sending kids off to college. Right.

I know. Yeah. Yeah. I was telling Lance before you hopped on. It's like this kind of pre. Grieving like you're. We're. We're in a position that we're doing what we set out to do, which was to help launch our daughter out into the world. But there's also. Yeah. This anxiety about it's not a safe world at times, and I can't. I'm not going to be able to be there in all the ways that I have been with her under my roof. And, and how do I. Yeah. Emotionally regulate myself in a, In a. In a situation where, you know, she's in a different state, different part of the country, different time zone. Tough.

I think I, I see that happening for you just now as we're talking about it even.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. They just got home late last night from a trip. And so I think she'll be in the state of Washington. And. Yeah, that's kind of like. I was thinking of scaffolding. You know, the scaffolding comes down as kids age and, and our ability to manage our own anxiety and to regulate is so critical, I think, to not only us, but to the. To their success as well. So she doesn't feel like she has to take care of me or worry about dad and mom. And so it's a. It's a lot of. A lot of work emotionally. And I can tell that the next several months will be a lot of that space.

So do you just Tell yourself I'm safe.

I don't know what I tell myself. I kind of tell myself I think it's. It's going to be okay. Like, we're going to be okay. Like, we've done. Like, I can trust. I can trust in the work, in the relationships that we have and know that everything's going to be okay. And. And that doesn't mean that there won't be difficult times or challenges, but I. There's a deep sense of, like, things will be okay, and I'll have to think on that more. But I was. I was writing. I'm doing well. I don't think she'll listen to this podcast so I can say it. I was. I've keep it a little journal that I'm writing that I'll give to her when she launches off to college and stuff. I've been writing little entries in it. And one of the things I was writing the other day is just encouraging her to trust in her. Her gut and her instincts that have led her this far, you know, and to follow the path that God has her on when it's easy to get distracted and to lean into that truth that I know she already knows about herself. And so just encouraging that. So I don't know. There's. It's. It's. I'm in. I'm in new territory, Stephanie, so.

Oh, that is. That is so lovely, Rhett.

I'm in a new boundary.

What a gift to her. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's really cool.

What's getting you through it, Steph?

Benign neglect. That was my parenting style. But. No, what's getting me through it? Well, you know, we've been through. We've been through a lot more. A lot of things that are. Are even less safe. So I think my skin is pretty thick at this point. And it's exact. It's what you're saying, Rhett, that I. And kind of what we're talking about, I. I have no control. I really don't. I mean, besides, you know, all the. The 18 years that we've put into our children, I. I love the, you know, the empowerment of saying, well, but I could write something to my child, letting them know how valuable they are to me. There's some empowerment there. But in general, I can't control what's going to happen. I have to trust my kid that he's 80 to 90% trustworthy. Sure. Okay. But that. The thing is, what helps me is remembering, well, God's a hundred percent trustworthy. One hundred percent. No. No matter what happens? We will be okay. Truly, no matter what happens, we will be provided for if we, if we stay awake. Right. If we keep in that space of empowerment. So, meaning. Asking for guidance, at least that's what works for me. Right. Saying I, I'm, I'm in an unsafe feeling situation. Lead me, lead me to safety, lead me to the people I need to be in connection with, to the right next step. So I'm not alone. I've got a hundred percent safety in God. And then we also, a hundred percent of the time can reach out to people to help us. Right. So, so I talk to other moms and dads who are sending their kids to college and that helps. But if something terrible were to happen, I know that I have people around me. That, that would support me and help me stay okay to take care of my kid. That will never change. And I guess I'm at a point where that's enough for me. I, I have, I have accepted that I have no control really, over what happens in my, my children's life once they're out of the home. Right. I mean, I have influence. I have influence, but not control. I don't know, I feel like I just talked for a long time.

A lot of work.

Yeah.

For you to beat at this place, I think. Right. Like, yeah, I'm listening to you and I'm like, that's somebody who's done a lot of work to, to come to a place where she can trust that no matter what happens.

Like, well, trial by fire, you know, I mean, I, I don't know if you want to talk about this, but it does come from my, my son's medical challenges.

Yeah.

You know, having to, having to say Goodbye to your 9 year old. Well, he was 10. Say goodbye to your 10 year old as he gets wheeled into an operating room to have his chest broken and his heart taken out. I don't. How do you keep standing and do that? It's probably the most unsafe, unpredictable, unfair situation I've ever been in or maybe any parents in who's dealing with a medical situation with their child. It forces you to confront the reality that we're not promised safety and it's not fair. So then what do, do we fall down and feel sorry for ourselves? And maybe for a little while we.

Do, but you get a little bit, I would imagine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is this podcast. Are we able to talk about God here or.

No, this is too late now.

Already into it.

Yeah.

Let's talk about God.

Well, because I had a real reckoning I mean I did fall down when my, when my son was diagnosed and we were told he has to have a heart transplant. And there's a whole drama story to that including a helicopter flying to children's hospital and you know, him almost dying. But I, I did break down. I was a mess, kind of. I was confronted with this reality that the world is not only unsafe but like completely unsafe. And I still had a, let's see, 11 year old child to take care of and a job. And how was I going to do that in the midst of maybe losing my child? I'm sure so many people could relate to this and my. I, you know, I'm not, I, yeah, anxiety took over. That's what I will say for, for a good amount of time. And I had to have this reckoning. This sounds gonna sound so I, I can't believe. I hope not too many people listen to this. But anyway I had to have this reckoning where I literally was walking through the hallway in my house just consumed with anxiety about what was going to happen. How was I going to get through this? I don't think I can manage the fear in this. And I had to speak out loud my truth. But it wasn't just my truth. To me, it was me and God speaking it out loud. This is going to sound so weird but I really was saying against, against the evil one that was trying to smush me down. Trying to make. Just take everything away so that I don't fight anymore. That I just, I could have just crawled up in a ball and gone to sleep literally and checked out and so together, God. And I said basically, not today Satan. You know, I, I just like, like. But it was talking out loud, it was speaking up about no, you have prepared me for this. I have relationships that will support me. I have family that loves me and is strong. Right. I'm smart, I, I'm resilient. I've been through hard things before. I can do this. I can do this. And it was literally just claiming that truth that even in this horrible situation I still got some stuff. I got some stuff. And most importantly I got the creator of the universe on my side. So we're gonna be okay. And that shifted everything for me that helped me show up. Which is I guess what we do even in an unsafe world, we keep showing up.

I think this really shows like for us as therapists to me like number one, Steph, I mean you, I, I remember watching the like when you would put post up and I love you know, seeing you Know, the, like, being in the trenches and the tough parts, but then, you know, the great news when it would come, and then the powerful stories of you not being alone that I. I mean, that firefighter community that you guys are a part of is absolutely amazing.

But.

I think what you're talking about here, when you look at restoration therapy, when we look at the usage of the four steps, it's not this, like, cute therapy tool that's out there that. That's like. That we teach people. This is a weapon that, like, really helps us to go to task when the whole world is against us, when. When we feel totally locked and we don't know what to do.

It's a weapon. It's our shield, our buckle and our shield.

Yeah. And I have so much respect for the way that you went to task there, you know, and. And to see, I. I can imagine you in that hallway, you know, tearing. Tearing down the evil one in that place to say, no, I'm not alone.

Right.

Hey, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The thing. And what's crazy is that I don't know that I ever would have gotten this piece that I have had I not been through that war, if we want to keep with that theme. So I agree with you. And it makes me think about what Rhett was saying, too, that, you know, in times of conflict or in times of stress, we're. We do have to show up more intentionally and with more power and maybe with a weapon of. But for good. A weapon for good, you know? Yes. Yeah.

How. What goes on inside of you. Right. I can see. I can see all wheels going all out.

Yeah. It's just. It's hard to put into words. You know, I. I had that image because, you know, I'm 50 and I grew up in the age where, you know, Saturday Night Live skit. The guy's talking to the mirror about how he's smart enough and. And good enough, and doggone it, people like them. And that's not what we're talking about. This isn't like selft talk. This is about, as Terry would say, I think taking a stance or a position in your life, you know, like, stepping into a.

Yes.

A place of. I like your language, Stephanie. It said stepping into a place of empowerment, that I can create change here and do something. And that's. It's hard. It's hard to talk about and to, like, explain it, but when you're in it and you have to embody that, it's. It changes your life for good. You have that experience now that Is like almost a template of, like, I can do this. I know what this looks like. And not that it's easy every time, of course, to do that, but I was just thinking about that.

You know, you're exactly right. Yeah.

And, you know, faith, I know, is important to. To the three of us. And we know that you can practice RT and come from different faith backgrounds or not come from a faith background, but we all lean into those things that have gotten us through life. And I know for you, like, that relationship with God was absolutely critical. I was gonna ask, how do you know God's 100 safe for you? Like, how does that. You said. That was such a resoluteness that I.

Was like, I know he a hundred percent of the time will. If. If I'm. If I ask and I'm looking right. If I'm in, if I'm close with him, I think 100. This is just my understanding, and I am not a theologian, but a hundred percent of the time, he will. He will have a way out or he will have a way to walk, will have a way. Through. It doesn't mean it won't hurt. It won't be really hard. It won't be painful. But he will never leave me. Ever, ever. I will never be alone. He will always be there, and he will always, if I ask, bring people, relationships, support into my life to be physical, not alone. And. And that's kind of what it is so that you can handle the things that are unfair and unpredictable. Right. It's the. It's the openness piece, the open to connection and vulnerability that I think helps the other two pieces. Meaning that things are unpredictable and things are not just. We don't live in a just world or a predictable world, per se.

Yeah.

As you're talking about that, I don't know if you want to hear. Rhett, I'm getting ready to go on this, like, CS Lewis, like, trip.

I know exactly where you're going. Go there.

I think I might, too. I want to hear it.

So we're going to, like, go all over Ireland and just kind of like, learn about Ireland and Cambridge and Oxford and learn, like, see the trails and. Rhett, you've already done this. You know, talk about moments of reckoning. You've sat in the conversion spot of C.S. lewis, but there's this really poignant scene in the Chronicles of Narnia, and Lucy is asking about Aslan, and I might. I hope I get this quote right, but I think she says, you know, is he safe? And Beaver, I Believe is talking and says, who said anything about safe? And he has this, like, amazing line. He says, but he's good and he's the king. And I always, always think about that idea of, like, they're knowing that there's goodness that's out there that, you know, that, you know, we might not feel safe in the moment, but knowing there's goodness out there, you know, can. Can sometimes turn the head, turn the ear, turn the heart to. To make that transition to that thing that might be that courageous step that you need to make.

That.

Yes. It's kind of where my. I don't know. Where were you, Rhett?

Exactly. That whole interaction there when she's questioning if he's safe, and he says, no, he's. Of course he's not safe, but he's the king. I tell you, he's good and he's the king. And I was thinking it's like we can kind of parse even the idea of safety and safety. Safety is not that life goes our way or that we're free from harm or bad things don't happen. Right.

That's right.

Almost like we're saying safety is that. That. I don't know, that there'll be a sense of justice that I have. I. I'm empowered to, like I think you said, Stephanie, connect to other people in the midst of great trials. I don't. I don't. I'm just. Yeah, we're just. Nothing is guaranteed. And so safety isn't about just moving.

Through Life easily, but 100% guaranteed is that you have choice always in every situation, 100%, you always have a choice. It might be very minimal, but let you choose. What are you going to do?

Yeah, I said to a group last week I was speaking at. It's kind of like a recovery group. And I was. I was reflecting on, you know, the passage that everybody wants to quote in Jeremiah 29, 11, 12, and 13, that I have a plan to prosper you and to do good and all this stuff. But we don't like the part where he says that in the midst of. I'm about to send you to 70 years into exile. And so exile is not safety at all, but they are empowered. He does say, I want you to plant vineyards and grow gardens and build homes and get married and raise kids and have families and be about the peace of the people around you, even those who have you in captivity. And so it's. Safety is not that there's not all kinds of crazy stuff happening around us, but it's our ability to make choices in the midst of it and to be about the peace of us and the other people around us. I think.

And I love that you also point out this idea is what I'm holding on to, at least from you, Rhett, is this idea of hope.

Yeah.

There. That in the midst of the turmoil, there's still hope. You know, there's hope for William. You know, there's. There's hope for the exiled people of Jerusalem, you know, that. That we. There is a hope. And I think as therapists, this is one of our major jobs, is to help people discover this hope, you know? Like what? Like that. That, to me, is one of the big questions that come in the room, you know, are you telling. Do we have hope? Right.

It makes. I don't. It makes me think of that quote from Shawshank, redep Redemption. I think I'm terrible at this, but you either get busy living or get busy dying. What are you gonna do? I mean, you gotta face the facts, but have hope. Yeah. Yeah. And I love Rhett. What you were saying, too, made me think about how important it is to be in community and connection with people. That. That. The openness piece. Right. The. You know, a situ. Anybody who's gone through trauma. Right. Forces you to rely on people in a way that you wouldn't normally. You know, it's hard to ask for help. It's hard to say, I'm falling apart. I don't know what to do. I need you to come in and save me. But when you do that, when you're forced to do that, or you choose to do that, you really learn that people show up for you. You know what I'm saying? We might not believe that people are as safe as they actually are, but we have to take that step of openness. Taking a risk. I think you guys talked about this with Megan, even, like, calling someone and saying, would you help me? And. And that's how it feeds the truth, that you are, in fact, safe, in that you're not alone. Right.

So let's get into the brass tax for. With. With this second sec or this kind of ladder section here, because I like to take this to a practical level.

Right, sure.

And I want to hear how you guys are helping clients with this, because if I. If I. If. If you're telling me what happened with William, I just say, you know, just, I want you to break out your sword. Let's just go crush the evil one together. Let's go for it. You know, I'm curious how what does this look like in the therapy room for the two of you when you're. When you're helping a client that is just so beholden to this idea that people are not trustworthy. I'm all alone. Or, you know, it's not. I'm not safe. You know, I love this idea of acceptance. I love this idea of empowerment. But how are you guys actually meeting your clients in that space?

Stephanie, go.

Well, Rhett, I think you were there. I don't know, Lance, maybe you were too. Like, I had the opportunity at one of the turning from anxiety trainings.

Yeah.

To get worked on by.

Is this the 10 minutes that Terry changed your life versus yes. Therapy. Yeah.

Well, it was. And Matt Rabsmith and Terry.

Yeah.

So. And I have repeated that with my own clients. Let me think about how to share. The basics are. Well, I don't. I mean, how practical do you want to get? The thing Terry had me do, which was very helpful. And Matt, I'm. I'm going to combine the two things because it's hard to sort them out in my head, but was to think of the things that I'm. That I feel most out of control about. Right. So I would have my client tell me the four things that you feel most out of control about. And I have a. A woman who has a ton of anxiety about being out of control. We write them down on a piece of paper, put them around her. So four cards. And we say, well, which one is the worst? Which one is the one? Like when you look at that scan your body, that is the one that brings up the most anxiety for you. Then from that place, we work on that trigger, I guess, in bringing to her the things that have. The ways that once she's shown up to be predictable for herself in the past. So. And this was done to me. What. How have you gotten through things that were hard or scary in the past? So helping her see the ways she's predictable for herself. Reviewing. Well, maybe. What would other people say about you about how you've handled hard things in the past? That's part of the predictable place. Yeah. The second one, the justice piece, would be talking about the fact that, yes, this is unfair. Can we. Can we be in line with that together? It's unfair. How have you managed unfair things in the past? What would other people say to you about the way you've managed unfair things in the past? And then the openness piece, I have really used that to talk about who's in your life now. What. What are the ways that you can rely on other people now to help you if and when this scary thing were to happen. And through those findings, finding, finding the truth words for the person, does that make sense or.

Yeah.

Or making bigger their truth words, assuming you already have them, connecting them to their own experiences of the past and the current truth of who the people are in their lives, that will help them through anything, whatever that would happen. And maybe that includes God, maybe not depending on the person. And then you say, so what's the next first step you can take towards whatever it is you need to do or that, that you're feeling scared about or how do you need to show up in this situation? What's the next. Just one step. And that's worked for my clients just to get them out of that powerlessness place. Right? The kind of frozen, fawning, whatever you want to call it, place to remind them that they are empowered and can do something.

That intervention, by the way, I think this is your intervention. Rhett.

Isn't this, is this yours?

Rhett, to the table.

I mean, I brought the one. It's not. I wouldn't call it mine. I think I probably picked up some of this in that. I love that book. My shelf here. You've ever seen this book? Things go. Things Might Go Terribly, Horribly Wrong.

Oh, I love it.

A Guide to Life Liberate from Anxiety. It's by a couple professors, and I don't think they have this exact. But there was loosely. I picked up this idea of having people write down on note cards different things that they were anxious about. And at the most, at one point, I think I had one person had like 25 cards laid out in my office, which I used to, used to have a big office. And she just kind of had her walk around through the cards and pick up each one and kind of talk about it until eventually she was left with one card that felt like the most pressing. And it seemed like. And again, I think I probably picked this up a long way from other people. But the ability to, like, identify that, talk through, through it out loud can be very freeing because sometimes you realize that thing is not the most important thing. And then you get to that one card and you have them work through that. And I know, Steph, you're keep calling you Steph instead of Stephanie.

I, I, it's kind of a, a theme. I'm going by Steph. It's fine.

I know.

Just call her Leins.

Yeah, just get my last name right, man.

Okay.

No, go on.

No, you're very experiential. In the room. I know. And I think there's something about taking your time, have people identify that thing and then getting them up out of their chair, off the couch, into practice, embodying and stepping into that place of truth.

Yes.

The thing.

And reminding them of their weapons. I mean, I don't like the word weapon, but reminding them of their shield in their buckle. I guess. Whatever. Keep going. Sorry.

No, no, I just, I. I think I'm realizing that is my growing area for a therapist is to keep going back to the same thing over and over and over again and have the client work the thing over and over and over again looking for that next tool or weapon that I think will make it, fix it or make it better, chasing that shiny object. So with some people recently, we just spend session after session just getting up and practicing that movement and stepping into that and. And then when they leave, I really want them to experiment with change and to practice different options at home and to like practice stepping into things and see how that feels and. But I know we need to practice that in the room to kind of get some sense of. Around that.

Yeah, right. Like so in the room. Sometimes we'll take the next first step, which is calling a friend and saying, could you come over tonight? I need. I need some support. Or maybe it's calling their partner and.

Saying.

I'm feeling worried about this. Can we connect and talk about it later? Where typically they would not, you know, but actually taking the step, the real step.

And we're not even kidding. We're like literally talking about standing up and walking. Like.

Yeah.

We're not just saying what's the step? It is.

No, no.

A step like Terry telling the story about the pages that Terry, like, he sat there.

You remember this?

I don't know how much you remember it because you're in.

I was, I was a little in the. I was so in it. You're talking about that he did with me.

Yes. If we talk about it, you can talk.

I. I was like so in it. I have trouble remembering what happened does that. I mean, it was like an out of body experience kind of.

So I think all three of us got jacked up by this intervention that you brought to the table, Rhett.

At different points I. I got jacked up. Yeah. In front of Terry. In front of a big group of people. Yes. My own intervention jacked me up.

Yes. It jacked me up too. I was like, I was like crying, talking to my dad. Like, who was. Andrew was playing the part of my dad. And.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Yeah, that was. That was a whole thing. But so in this place, Terry, there was this moment. Steph's, like, kind of in the flow, and you just see Terry, gentle Terry, is just grabbing all. Like he has a whole bunch of sheets of paper, and he's just dropping the sheet of paper, like, sheet of paper after sheet of paper after sheet of paper all around the room, making a trail.

Yeah, a trail, huh?

And he. And he grabs Steph so, so kindly. Did he hold your hand or.

Oh, yeah, the whole time. That was really powerful.

He's holding your hand and just. And he's like, naming the steps with you. This is the repetition, you know, that. That you know, of a master, like, you know, beyond master therapist who just naming that step. And how'd you get to this step? Step. How'd you get through this step? And you named it. And. And then. And then. And then he brought you to the big step. This is like Rhett's kind of moment that he was talking about, where that one big monster item that's sitting in the room, and he said, okay, how are we going to do this step?

That's exactly right. And just for context, the. It was that the anxiety I still carry is my son's hearts don't last forever. Yeah. So I know this, God willing, if I live long enough, there's going to be another time when I. Where he's in trouble. Big trouble. So anyway, yes. So Terry was working on that. But, yes, the path leading up was all the ways that. That there had been safety in the midst of an unsafe situation. And then he said, so how are you going to get through this next thing? And I had to say out loud, I'm going to call my friend Megan. I'm gonna do my research. I'm gonna take care of my body, gonna pray every day. I. I have a plan. I know how I'm gonna do it. Yeah. Oh, some. It's reminding me of it. I'm feeling empowered just now saying it out loud. Stephanie, in this moment, again, it was.

It. Was it like. I know. Like, this is why I know about your son. Like, his courage to be able to take on a fire. Because I know your courage in that moment, like, you had so much courage in front of a room of, you know, therapists to. To be able to make that step. I think it just touched my heart. And I think this is just something that is such a gift for us as, you know, to be a team and to know that this work isn't just about others. It's like, this is our. Our. Our own stuff. So.

It totally is. And we want it. I know for me, as I say that, I think I want everybody I work with to be able to. To feel that peace. It truly ends up being peace. I slept while my son got his heart transplanted. I slept. It's peace that comes when you. When you can really get grounded in, that you're safe enough.

Well, and what I hear you saying, ultimately, I mean, this. This is ongoing work. Like, yeah, we. We never really master this. Right. We. You're going to continue to walk through the feelings of lack of safety around your son's health, and you will about.

Your daughter being at college, right?

Yep. And Lance is going to walk it with his Padres struggling sometimes y against the mighty God, you know? No, but we all have.

And we're all getting older. We're gonna have stuff happen to our bodies. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's the beauty, I think, is that we don't have this. You don't have to figure this out once and for all. But we keep practicing and practicing until it becomes this deep truth in us that we can, like, step into and take that position and embody that. And, man, Lance, we definitely need to have Stephanie back on the podcast because we got.

We.

We got more to talk about. So. Any last words, Stephanie, you want to say before you gotta go? I know we all gotta go because we all. We all have 10 sessions.

10, 11, or 12 o' clock clients.

Yeah. Anything you want to say before we sign off?

I just love that you guys are doing this. What I want to say is thank you for having. Making this dialogue happen and for being as gifted as you both are and your work as therapists, but also in this space. I. It's so needed and I'm loving listening to it. I probably won't listen to this one, but thank you very much. Thank you, Bellspurt, for making this happen. Of course.

Thanks. See you guys later. We'll talk soon.

Okay, bye for now.