Season 1 | Episode 11 | Special Guest RT Therapist & Fuller Seminary Adjunct Professor, Michael Piciucco

What's up, Lance?

Brett, long time no see, my friend.

Hey, tell people who might be listening the first time what our goal of this podcast is, or hopefully our goal.

Okay. Our big goals. Goals are, number one, we want this to be communal. Right. This is about our community of restoration therapy. And a lot of people feel alone out there. This is a great model, and we really want to make sure that people are getting to learn about it. And then one of the other big things that we're really hoping for is to give people some interventions. This is such an experiential model, restoration therapy. And my hope is that when people listen to this episode, they'd say, hey, I could use that in therapy today. So I think those are the two major goals. I have. Like, some, like, little things. Like, I. I love to hang out with Rhett, and I love our RTE people. So I think there's some benefit, like, internal goals for me.

Yeah, I love hanging out with new people, and that's why. And I'm going to do the introduction today. I'm going to try to botch it. Michael Pachuco. Did I say that right?

Got it. You guys.

Pachuco. Yo.

Like this. You guys are getting so good with last names.

We are. And I, before we got in the air, I was just. I'm kind of super pumped, too, because Michael works out where I grew up and he lives where my parents live. So I love Arizona. I love Phoenix. So I'm super excited to have that connection. So there's a good chance, Michael, in the future, that you will get to meet. We'll get to hang out in person very soon. So let's do it, and we'll just geek out about rt.

That's what we do. Thank you guys so much for having me. I'm. And I know we were. We were just talking about this a minute ago, but I'm. I'm super thankful to be here. And this podcast is getting a lot of buzz, you guys, over. At least over here on our side of the street in Arizona, we have lots of. I've interacted with lots of folks over the last couple weeks that are like, come on, keep it. Keep it going. So mission accomplished so far.

Well, now we have Michael Pachuco on here, so this place has nowhere else to go but up because Michael is like the catalyst I would describe.

This is what takes it viral, where Lance and I can quit our time therapy jobs and get picked up by Spotify or something.

Right. Right. Help us know. I haven't written any books or anything. Right, yeah.

Well, that's okay. You got a lot going on. So I. I actually, let's start with. Because I do think you have a unique context in that a lot of RT therapists, not all of them, but a lot of them trained at Fuller, and a lot of them trained under Terry, specifically in Pasadena. You did your degree at the extension campus in Phoenix, which is where I started off with doing my M. Div. There. And I don't know, there's something, I think, really unique about being at an extension campus. There's just a different type of student. I think sometimes people are often working full time and going to school. So I was just curious about your experience and what that was like for you and where did you fall in terms of graduation? Were you one of the, like, first graduating classes out of the Phoenix campus?

Yeah, no, I think there were a few cohorts before us. But I think. No, you're definitely right. That it does have its own vibe. You know, it's own. I mean, it does have its own community. But what I would say, as far as the RT piece of it, like, at least. At least for me, for myself and Nancy Freegard, you know, we would. We would just go out to Pasadena for trainings, like level one and level two trainings. But the way. I mean, the first exposure to Terry was in marital therapy, but we had him up on, you know, up on a big screen in our room. So I think. I think the small campus tries to keep as much continuity as it can with Fuller, Pasadena, but at the same time. Yeah, to your point, just does have its own kind of like, unique vibe, but it's been way cool.

Y' all have a really good set of faculty out there. The MFT department. I've been impressed by it. I'm in the. I'm just finishing the DMFT right now, so we get to study over there every now and then. And I've been really impressed by the. At least the faculty. I haven't got to meet any of the students yet, but, yeah, we have.

Such a. Yeah, we have such a good group. Just such like. Just such humble faculty members that are really, like, in the weeds of the work as well, like that. That do the work, that. That are therapists. Yeah, we have some wise folks around. I feel very lucky for that reason. And awesome students, of course. So.

Yeah, and you were saying earlier, too, you guys are about to have. And this is where my acronym is off. They say lfp.

Flp. Yeah.

So explain that.

Yeah, we. Yeah, it's the faculty LED practicum. So it's like, Lance, I think I've just heard you talk about this now a few times, but this is the model that was started by Terry. And I know my Young does this now over there in Pasadena, where there's a small group of students that are taken through rt, like in the clinic. We have our own clinic and on the Phoenix campus, but I have seven very bright, very passionate students that I'm taking through rt. And then in the fall, they'll start seeing clients in the clinic where I'll give them live supervision and, you know, so it'll be our first run in Phoenix, like going through that model. But it's really exciting, and with Terry and me, Young's help, I will hopefully make it through. You know, you'll do great. Yeah, it's fun. It's. It's been really cool.

So it's so scary the first time you do live supervision as a student or not supervision, but, you know, it is supervision, but you go back to a room with your first ever client, and then people sit and watch that, and the supervision is. So just get butterflies, like, thinking about that experience.

Oh, totally, man. I remember, Yeah, I remember having Terry Soup watch me live mode the first time. Like, that level of anxiety, it's so funny, but so awesome, too, to get that kind of feedback. Like, you're never. You're never ever again gonna get that kind of feedback. So it is. It is totally a unique training. I mean, Lance, you could speak more meaningfully to it because you've actually been through it.

But no, you think it's. That's the. That. That experience of having someone watch you do therapy. And there's things that you're aware of that you're not doing or you're aware that you're struggling with clients. But there's this other element of not knowing why. You know, my pain cycle, I always blame people, so I always think it's my client's fault. And it's really humbling when Terry watches you in therapy and says, actually, Lance, there's some things you can work on.

Yep. I was just gonna say, I guess especially with a model like rt, where we have. We have this clear path and arc of how therapy ought to go and framework. So there. There really. There really are obvious ways that you can give feedback where go do this now, you know, which we can't say the same about every model.

Yeah, yeah, you need to attend more right now. Just go attend. You're not attending enough.

It's great you two met it sounds like at anxiety training. Right. Intensive at Windshape. And Lance was leading that with Megan. Correct. So I was just curious, since we're all. I thought I'd start off, since we're all in that world, a little bit anxiety intensive. If either of you just have thoughts on where you hope to see that go, like, are either of you hoping to do an anxiety intensive yourself soon? Is there something about that training or that anxiety model specifically that you've been kind of thinking about the last several months?

So what do you think, Lance?

Well, we just. We actually just finished one here, and it went really well. We had five people, and it was actually my first time sending my own. My team to do the work, which was really awesome. I have Joanne Russell and Steven Perez, who are just this awesome group of therapists. There's, you know, Joanne has this ability to hold people like no other, and Stephen will hold you to the flames. So having having the two of them work together was really exciting for me, and I'm really excited to see what happens next. We know Megan and Dee Dee have. Have one coming up here in San Diego and at Orchard Hill for women of faith. So if you know of any women of faith, people that listen to this who want to go, there's. There are scholarships available, so this is a good time to get in on it.

So.

And then we also have Kelly Robinson and Jacob Oliver out here that are going to be doing an intensive. So I'm excited. I think it's. The model works, so that's really exciting for me. And I would love to see this happening probably, you know, probably at least once a quarter next year, and then hopefully, you know, maybe get it to two times a quarter. And I would love to see more happening throughout the, you know, country. We're still trying to figure out how to market it. I think that's the big thing for us is we know it works, but we haven't really. If we target an audience, it works really well. We just haven't figured out what the targets are. How about you, Mike? Michael?

Yeah, yeah. Nancy and I have been wanting to get one going out here. I think the marketing piece is. I think you're right. That's probably been a challenge on our end. But the training in Georgia was so fantastic. Like, you and Megan did such an awesome job of taking us through that. And. Yeah, I mean, we would love to get. We would love to get that going. I mean, I can. I can say that at least whether it's stop, turn slow, or a lot of the Other just, even conversation around RT and anxiety that happened that weekend have been really impactful in the room. Like, I think that really pushes forward the model in an awesome way. So it's. I. I do get super excited to hear about the intensives going on. When I get those emails come through, I'm like, yes, this is happening. So, yes. Yeah, yeah.

It's cool that you're in your position too, on faculty. There's an opportunity even to talk to students about, you know, because you're not really exposed to intensive models a lot when you're in grad school. You don't find that out till later on. And, you know, just thinking out loud, too, I mean, I've stepped out of the intensive world for a while, but I've thought a lot more about it recently. And even I think maybe just integrating my own background in pastoral circles, doing some kind of anxiety intensive with ministry leaders or pastors or something like that would be really cool. Tell us about. So I. I know you love RT and we'll get into the weeds here, but, like, was there a moment, like, where it just clicked for you? You're like, okay, this is the model I want to get into, or was it like a slow burn over time? Like, I'm curious what that. That moment or experience was for you.

I'd be happy to share a little bit of how it came to me. So, you know, and so basically, right, you and I were talking about this before, but I was doing my master's in theology at Fuller, and. And that's what I did before I started down the path of becoming a therapist. And I look back at this experience of doing my master's in theology, and although there most certainly was really good intention on my part and also sincerity, but in retrospect, I also know that there. There was part of me that in some real way was trying to put together some theological scaffolding or understanding that would protect me from pain, protect me from the sting of death. I mean, in and through maybe my understanding that would. That would tell me how to live, you know, a good life. And so, you know, and I was really into it. I was studying ancient languages and all the rest of it, but in. In the midst of the theology program, my dad, who was. Who got really sick, and a year and a half later, just before I graduated, we lost him. And in that process, for me, this whole scaffolding that I had built, it just could not hold the depth and density of my experience. It just. It broke in some real way. It broke and so, and I did. And I did not have a faith. I did not have a Christian faith that was as real as my dad's corpse there. I, I did not have something that could hold that. And as I got to the end of this theology degree, I mean, I, I left Fuller with a theology degree and no theology. There was like a bunch of bits and pieces of theology on the floor. So as I quickly moved on to this next program, not only was I trying to figure out what it meant to be a therapist. What does that mean? I'm also, like, on the fly trying to patch together something that resembles a Christian faith. And I'm, you know, so I go into, you know, start this MFT degree and I'm working three or four jobs, and we have one kiddo and one kiddo on the way, and I'm just like, driving around constantly just trying to fit, Figure all this stuff out. So in, in the midst of that, I, like everyone else in this community, come across this little purple book and I decide, I'll read this one. I, I'm obviously not reading all these books, but I'll read this one. This looks interesting, approachable. And as far as, like a moment. Yeah. When I started to go through this book and when I started to hear Terry in marital therapy talk about pain and talk about truth, you know, not only was this giving me some real clarity around, I think this is what therapy is supposed to be, but it was also coalescing with, you know, for me, like, recontextualizing what it meant to live an authentic Christian life for a million different reasons, but among them, like, maybe transformation is not so much some, not so much about becoming something other than what we are. And maybe it has more to do with being restored back to what we are most deeply and most truly. And, and then within that RT picture, it's also that, like, truth, not, not always being this, this truth proposition that, that I either agree with or, or don't agree with. The truth being something that I sort of do and, and bring out of my ratt, like a real world full of death and pain. And I, I, I find a way to embody it. And so, so these ideas were really, really resonant, especially kind of the season of life I was coming out of. And aside from that, it was also simple. It was really nice. It was really nice for me to have something simple. I tell my students that things are not simple up here for me. So I really love this, the simplicity of this model, even though it's like the waters of the model are, like a thousand feet deep. It's simple in its nature. So from there, Nancy Free. I met Nancy Freegard, who is a dear friend and mentor to me, and we started to drive out to Pasadena to do level one and level two training with Terry and Sharon. And, you know, I guess, like, for me, the rest is history. But a slow. A slow burn. But it's a. It's just. It's such a huge. It's such a huge gift to have this way of working with people that we all. We all kind of glimpse and appreciate in this community. Like, it's. It's such a gift to have this way of working with people where we see people do something where they have to, like, reach into their guts and forward face their pain and do something courageous and, you know, dare I say, often, oftentimes virtuous in the face of. In the face of pain. And. Yeah, you know, that's kind of where I find myself. Yeah.

Wow, Michael. I mean, talk about the beauty of. To go through something so horrible of the loss of a father. And, you know, it's so interesting. I find that sometimes, you know, I have my M. Div. From Fuller as well, and I. I think it taught me how to think, but it didn't teach me how to feel. And when I went to the. When I got my mft, it taught me how to feel and how to deal with my pain. I. I would agree with that. And there's so many. I feel like you just had. If I had, like, a nugget tree of, like, golden nuggets, like, it. It just, like, sprouted a ton of nuggets that I want to, like, grab and, and, and deal with. I, I mean, thank you so much for sharing your story and I'm so sorry for the loss of your father. Remember you first telling us about it at the intensive training and.

You know.

So appreciate you being willing to share that here. And. But that is the beauty of this model, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

And. And I love this idea of, you know, how we protect ourselves from pain. Sounds familiar. And then, you know, these truths that we kind of fish out there, I think, you know, these are all very thoughtful pieces. And this idea of becoming so, so rich.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, and, yeah, this idea of becoming this idea of, like, the truth in RT being something that is, like, totally distinct and different from what we would otherwise think as being, like, an affirmation in, like, pop psychology. I do kind of wince when I'm going through. When I'm, like, Going through a peace cycle or integrating that with a client, or we're going through the four steps, and maybe once in a while someone will say, oh, it's like an affirmation. Right? I'll kind of be like, no. And I suppose what makes. For a bunch of different reasons, what makes it different than what we would think of as being an affirmation is the truth is something that's. That is said in spite of pain. And by that, I. There. Like, there's a. Here's kind of how it makes sense to me. There's a theologian, Paul Tillich, who writes a bunch of inscrutable books that I pretend to understand, but he has this. He has this book called the Courage to Be. And in the. In this book, he says, the courage to be is to accept oneself in spite of being unacceptable. So the courage to be is to accept oneself in spite of being unacceptable. And in rt, like, we run it, when we. When we position our clients to speak the truth, we do run into this dissonance oftentimes, right? There's this dissonance. It's like, but I don't believe that, or, but that doesn't feel true. And so therefore, it's not so much this affirmation so much as it is. You just need to kind of say it anyways. You kind of need to say it in spite of. Which raises, like, a really interesting question in RT about the truth, which is. Is the truth something that I need to believe, or is it something that I just need to say? I kind of am curious what you guys think about that. I think that's a. I don't know, maybe worthwhile thing to explore.

Yeah, well, yeah, we were saying before you hopped on, like, that's the part that I struggle with a lot with clients. It's like, very easy to help a client identify their pain cycle and to believe that. Right. And to see that mapped out. But when you start talking about truth and them not believing that, like, I. Yeah, I. It's something I'm wrestling with. Something that sticks in my mind that Terry, I think, has tried to communicate. I don't know, maybe I don't. If he was in a conversation with him or he said it at a workshop, but is trying to help a client in spite of what's happening, like you said, to take. To decide to take a position or a stance in their life of who they want to be, of who they want to become. And when Terry, he talks about the. The wiser future self a lot.

Yeah.

And in spite of Where I am today, who, who am I becoming? What kind of position do I want to take in my life? And I, I kind of am right now in a place that you don't have to believe it to take action. I may not believe that I'm worthy, but I could take steps that when I look at those steps, it looks like someone who has worth. You know, I can, I can move towards people and try to engage them, though I may feel unworthy. And I think that has a lot of merit. I think there's some reinforcing tension there that the more I step into that place, the more I start to believe that I am that type of person who has worth or value or whatever. But I'll be honest with you, like every session with every client is different and try to helping position them. And I have a friend who uses the phrase sometimes he's like, you'll get it when you get it. Yes, like really trite and cliche sometimes. But there are those moments where I'm like, oh, now I get it. Now I know what it means to embody this truth and I can't explain it to you and I can talk it to death and it won't make sense, but I get it now. And so I don't know, is there, I mean, Lance, in my mind when I watch him work as like the experiential king, is there anything that. How do you help a client get into their truth, Lance, and what Michael is talking about? Like, in spite of what they may feel or believe about them self or the circumstances, what. What do you do?

Yeah, I mean, I think this is a. I, I appreciate this, this conversation right now because I think a lot of times when we look at our pain cycle and we look at our piece and this happens a lot of times with the psychoeducational groups just because there's not a lot of time time to really go to that depth. So they'll have, like, they'll have on their pain cycle say, unloved, unacceptable, unsafe, and not enough. Right. And so they'll be, they'll sit with the group and they'll say, so what's the truth? And then they'll say, I'm loved, I'm accepted, I'm safe. I good enough. You know, and they'll just kind of take the opposite and, and then they'll just put it out there. Right. And you will get that moment where they say the words. But that does not. It doesn't it. You know, Terry always says, you know, it don't Mean a thing if it ain't got that swing right, you know, and it's true. We have to find ways to make that stand and have, like, these two things going on in my mind right now. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna throw two out, and then we can kind of figure out which one would be more helpful for today's discussion. One is with brief solutions, focused therapy. There's this amazing therapist named Elliot Connie who. And Elliot Connie, he is this. If you ever, if you ever need to just, like, be excited about doing therapy, he. He's got so much great stuff, but he talks about this idea that knowing when, when you say there's something wrong with you, you know that there's actually something there. There is like a. Another side of the story, something bad happened to you. There's this implicit element inside of you that knows that there. That when I say my life is horrible, that means that I know that there is a life that is better. When I say that I'm not loved, I know that there's this deep longing inside of my heart to know what love is. To be loved, to. To be something. When I say I don't matter, that inside of me, there desire to matter. And Elliot will kind of grab people and say, okay, so you know, what's wrong, but let's talk about what's right and let's find ways to access that. There's a part of you that longs for that, that desires that. Let's, let's. Let's create this. This way to get there. So there's that, that element of knowing the wrong that, that we can access a right. So that, that can be a really good discussion in therapy. And then the other would be. So you have that client that has grabbed the, you know, unloved, you know, and they've just put the words on the other side. And the other way I like to do that is to find reference points was to say, well, when have you felt loved? When was the last time you really felt safe?

And.

And you can kind of grab those things. I don't. I don't know which discussion would be more helpful for today. I'm sure some people are like, they're probably rooting one way and some people are rooting the other.

Well, I was going to say I. With. With number. With option one. Yeah. On the menu. I, I like, I love this idea that, you know, the, the pain cycle does represent that there's some incongruence going on there by, by way of like the fact, to your point, the fact that this doesn't feel good for me implies that, again, I. There must be part of me that knows either that this isn't true or this shouldn't be.

Or like, if I'm.

Just like, I'm mad about something. Like, I'm mad about the fact that this is happening, because implicitly, I sort of know that it shouldn't be happening. I think that's a really cool entry point into truth. But then just to synthesize your, Your two options here, like, when I was first starting out doing rt, I think I would fall into this trap. When we would get to the truth, I would fall into this trap, maybe because it's, like, comfortable for me or I was afraid or whatever. I would fall into this trap of kind of like reducing this part of RT down to just a cognitive behavioral therapy exercise where we're just like, challenging the assumptions and distorted thinking. And didn't like. I don't know what Terry's saying was it didn't have that stang or something. Yeah.

Don't mean a thing if it ain't.

Got that swing that, that. But. And I guess like, over time, it occurred to me that something like that. This part of RT is far less about convincing the client of something up here, and it is far more about saying something from here.

You, you're just, just for people who are not watching. I mean, you're pointing at your head. Yeah, it's, it's, it's not an intellectual exercise. Is that what you're saying? It's more a heart embodied experience. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but, like pointing. It sounds something like that.

Yeah. Because conversely, we also have clients that will say no. I mean, I know it's true. I mean, I know what the Bible says, for example. Like, I know that that's true, but it just doesn't sort of like, feel true. Yeah. So therefore, I mean, we have these cool different entry points. I hear Lance talking about, like, ways of sort of evoking a sense that maybe these things could be true. But then I guess the art of RT then experientially is like, how do we put our clients in a position so as to say that? And I guess, yeah, I mean, this is just like a, a different piece of it, but enough to go in a different direction. But this is, this is part of what feels unique to me about rt, experientially is in order to squarely face up my pain, it does require of me some kind of, like, I called it virtue, but courage. Yeah. And for a while, as a clinician, like, I did have some nagging sense that, like, something's missing from therapy. And maybe in some way, like, what I felt was missing was the part. The part where someone has to develop virtue or character. And in this model, we put people in a position to sort of do that, and it's astonishing when they do. It's astonishing when clients do something really courageous or, you know, and I think that's what happens there. So.

Doesn'T the word courage. Right. Come from the Latin, like, heart?

Bare your heart?

Yeah. And so I was thinking about the importance of the practice piece in rt. Right. The walking of the steps. And I remember my colleague Todd Sandel, who went to Fuller, and we did. He trained me in the marriage intensive models. He would tell clients that it takes a while to move from here to here, from your head to your heart. And that's kind of where I go back to with clients in the room, and even when they're out of the room, giving them options to experiment with. Like, this week, I want you to go out and to try this to, whether you believe it or not, to step into this position, to try this on, to see how that feels. And when a client, in my experience, does that repeatedly over time, there is this transformation that it moves from this. Yeah, I know that I'm loved to. Yeah, man. I can feel that I'm love. Like, it's a deep. Like, I sense it now, but unless we're practicing it.

Yeah.

Which I think Terry's. He always says that RT is not about the pain and peace cycle. He says it's the four steps.

Yes.

Right. Is that correct, Lance? Like that He'll. He'll correct us on that. It's not the pain and peace cycle. It's the four steps. Yeah.

People that say, I love that restoration therapy, that pain and peace cycle. That means it is a thoughtful, interesting therapy model that shows things. People that say, man, when I use my four steps, I'm different. That's a person. That's. That's in the restoration therapy model. You know, we keep on doing this thing, and I feel like I have to go back to a consultation group we did a few weeks ago or a few months ago, Michael. And you'll have to, like, explain this intervention that you do, because I really love this intervention that you were teaching us about. You know what I'm talking about? With your hand on your head and the heart. And then could you. Could you talk about that intervention I mean, we normally would do this at the end, but I feel like it fits so well right now.

Yeah, well, yeah. When we're in. You know, when we're in an experiential moment, a good example is like when. When we're inviting our clients to speak, to say the truth, we often. It's normal and expected that we would. We would have our clients sort of maybe struggle with that in the beginning. Again, there's that dissonance. There's. There's a lot going on. But when my clients will start speaking and I can tell that they're not connecting with it, I will ask them to put their one. One hand on their head, on one hand kind of over their heart like this. And I will ask them, where are you saying this from? And oftentimes that's sort of like a confusing thing for the client to think about.

But.

But a lot of times they'll go, you know, I am. I'm saying it from here. And I'll ask them to take. Take your hand off of your head and just say it from here. And sort of tells the client that this is. This is not about convincing yourself of something. This is far more about giving, like giving yourself something than it is about some epistemological game. You know, you don't need to be convinced of this. You need to. You almost need to give yourself a blessing.

Right.

It comes from here. So now try saying it from here.

Yeah, so it's pointing to his heart right now. He has his hand over his heart. Okay. I. This. I've been using this in my therapy, like, making them put their hands on their heart, which Terry loves to do anyways.

That's an easy thing to do in the session.

Yeah.

And. But when you get them to put it on their head as well, it is so fascinating when you give them a choice of which one it's coming from.

Yeah.

If I say I'm loved and. And I tell you that I'm loved and I have my hand on my head, and then. And then if Michael were to ask me, take your hand off your head, Lance. Now say it again. And I say I'm loved, it hits so differently. I'm telling you, this intervention is. It's so simple, but it's. Make your clients feel a little goofy. But, man, it's so amazing when you try this on with your clients. So putting your hand on your head or on your heart and having them. And then giving them permission. Okay, take your hand off your head right now and say it again.

Mm.

Yeah. I use it all the time. And it's almost as though it's the difference between like a belief and faith. You know, it's almost like now, now, now you need to try to say it from this, this, this deeper place that will require something. It will require something of you to say it from here. It's scarier, you know, to say it from there.

Yeah, I, it's not lost to me that we all went to school originally and did theological work and now we're all therapists. And I'm. I guess I'm curious, Michael, because I like that you talked about Tillic and the courage to be and, and the truth here. And I'm wondering if there are any other like, theological frameworks or right now passages of scripture or characters, theologians that you've been leaning into when it comes to this piece around truth and this embodied sense of, around like courage and heart. Like. Anything come to mind that you've been digging?

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I, I've heard so many people now, RT folks make reference to the stewardship of pain which comes from this Frederick Buechner sermon, which I think is like, it's in his book Secrets in the Dark. But you can find this, this old, this old video on YouTube of Frederick Buechner. It's like a 10 minute video. I show it to every class talking about the stewardship of pain, which, in, in which he, he makes you want to talk about a golden nugget tree. I mean, he makes a lot of really salient theological points. And one of the most, one of the most important ones is just this idea that like, we have got to be in touch with pain in order to ultimately become a steward of it. And as it relates to rt, this is a model that actually gets us in touch with pain and, and it physically, the physicality of this model, like when I was training in level two, this is kind of like a really, really short, funny story. But I, I was presenting a video that I did to the group the Live Mode, where my client was being bullied and Terry had me stand up and role play as the client. And Terry gets like right up in my face and pushes me and I'm. I'm still in grad school at the time I'm doing this, or maybe I just finished.

Say that again because I don't think people will respect what you just said.

Carrie Hargrave pushed me and I push him back. And in this moment, for a moment, Terry and I are just standing in a room, everyone sort of watching, and we're just sort of pushing each other back and forth a little bit harder and harder. And I don't really know what the resolution there was. I was probably so disoriented. But. But what I take from that is that this model is about getting into actually getting in touch with pain, not just getting coping skills, quote unquote, that help me sort of like, get around pain. This is. This model is about having, like, total contact and confrontation with pain so that you can be a steward of it. So, you know, if that makes any sense.

But this, it seems you're just talking about it brings up even emotion for you. Like, that was a really visceral experience.

Totally. It is. It is visceral. And it. It. It gets. It makes the point. The point was made to me in that exercise, like this. This is about contact with pain. This is about helping people be in touch with pain. Yeah. And. Yeah, anyways, to your question, Red, which is, like, there's theological significance to that. Like, if our pain ends up being this kind of treasure that will make us wise, then we should be in touch with it. Yeah.

Yeah. I love that we're getting in touch, but we're not getting, you know, like, sucked underneath the depths of pain, which I think a lot of therapy ends up doing, where, you know, they'll say, I need a. I haven't really done enough trauma work to really, like, I need to go to the moment and really go deep inside the moment. And, you know, what we're learning is, like, it's not to be in touch doesn't mean that we are, like, reliving or. So I think there is this nuanced element. And I'm curious, as you're talking about Terry pushing you and you go back to that moment, what do you think he was trying to teach you there about Stuart? Or if you were to go into, like, imagining your client in that place and you're going back and forth, what does he want you to know?

Probably a lot of things. One of the. What comes to mind immediately is like, you have a choice about what to do with me. I mean, you. You have a choice. You have a choice in how you're going to respond. That would be. That would be one. Yeah. Now, I'm just thinking for a moment, but if you. But I'd like to know what you guys think, so feel free to jump in.

I don't know what you were thinking in that moment, but I was thinking about it. Seems like some kind of attention is important. Like, I think about Paul's words in Second Corinthians 5, like, he acknowledges the pain that we're like burdened in these earthly tents and we're groaning under these earthly tents. But then the same time, he acknowledges that he's confident, like in who he is and, and where he's going, and it doesn't resolve the pain and fix it all. And I don't know, just, I don't know the word tension. Like somehow we being in being in their pain, we have to be intention with it, we have to acknowledge it. But not. Or now in, in this book, Inner Voice of Love, which was his right. His journal, when he was in a season of depression, which they later published. But in his first little entry, he talks about we have to be in contact, that we can't run away from it, nor can we immerse ourselves in it, that we have to learn to almost dance with it. And I, I don't. I'm wondering as a therapist, like, we don't want our clients just to fully immerse themselves in the pain and trauma. That's all we talk about. And we don't want them avoid it either.

Right.

So we have to figure out how to help them come into contact with it, be curious about it, dip their toe in it. I don't know. I'm just. You guys have me thinking, like, theologically, which is good.

It's a little finesse.

What, what do you suspect was, Lance, what do you suspect was to. Terry was trying to teach in that moment.

So I'm actually curious. We'll have to ask him.

What.

I'm sure he's probably done this a bunch of times, but. And I, I hope people, you know, are mindful about how they push people in therapy, because there's going to be a moment. But one of the things that Terry talks about a lot is that once you have developed pain between you and your client, you, you, you now have an easy place to work. Because when the, when the offender or the person who has done pain is outside the room, it's really hard. But when you're in the room and there is a moment where your client is in their pain cycle because of something that you've said or something that you've done, now there's way more freedom to work because you know that you're there to help them.

Yeah.

And you can actually work with them in the midst of their pain. So I think my, my guess is that there, there was a sense of trying to bring up that pain and then to be able to Come alongside. Okay, now I got you worked up.

Yeah.

I'm here with you. What is it that you need to know right now? I, I, I just imagine Terry like that's his setup to get you to that place to say, you know, you have choice or to say you are stronger or whatever it may be that you're needing in that moment.

This is like what you make me, what you're making me think about in terms of, like, watching Terry work in, in ways. Part of what it instilled in me, surely, that exercise, but others that I've seen him do is like modeling for us as clinicians. Like, it's totally okay in experiential work to be antagonistic. And by, by totally okay, I mean, obviously given certain caveats, but because when you are, when you are to your point, like, personifying the pain for the client, that's when you're actually helping them be in a real position to do something different and to exercise some agency and choice and in spite of pain. And I've seen Terry do this a bunch. But when I think about how I work with clients, there will be moments I will shift into being adversarial, you know, and using that tension or using that energy of being adversarial. I, I remember seeing videos of like, Fritz Pearls do this. Like, this is something he would be very well known for, the great gestalt experiential therapist. He would be told, I mean, he would, you know, don't do what he did, but he would be really, really antagonistic. And then once the client would like, finally push through that tension and get angry with him and confront him, he would sort of like, reach his hand out and be like, nice to see you. It's, it's nice to, Nice to see you. There you are. You know, there's something, there's definitely something to that.

Well, going back to your Paul Tiller quote, you know, that that sense of being like you, you are now unacceptable in that moment where you've gotten angry or whatever it may be, that is the moment where that truth can really scream loud in the soul of, you know, you're still called buddy. I think that's one of my truths when I feel like a failure is to know that I'm still called. And, you know, it, it hits so much deeper when, when I know that I've totally failed, which I'm pretty good at it. I should have called it out last time when I called Stephanie Levens, Stephanie Levine's or Levines or whatever. I messed it up. I Should have been like, I'm still called. I still can do this work, you know? Yeah, yeah.

There's a. Like when we think about the truth, we're thinking about the PE cycle and this is kind of like really bottom up moment for our clients. There's a picture that has like haunted me and like lived with me for, for a while that, that I really do think about and it's. Is this picture of. And actually just side note, it really in many ways reminds me of the vignette that's in the advanced techniques book about the. The Holocaust story of washing. But similarly, there's this picture I think about that does help me conceptualize what's going on here with the truth in rt. And it's this picture of the. The real story of the night the Titanic sunk and what was a true story about this, this string quartet that what we would have to imagine is sort of a totally unfathomable, bleak, dark, despairing situation where a boat is sinking and everyone is probably doomed. They're screaming. Just unthinkable. And somehow in the midst of that, these people, whoever they are, they pick up instruments and start playing music so as to say something like, we are supposed to do more than just survive. And the kind of courage, the kind of virtue it would presumably take to do that or say that in spite of what was going on around them. This rings very. This, this sort of like maps on very well for me at least in how I think about what's going on here. Because our clients sometimes have such astonishing pain that, that they're struggling with, and we know that. And to get them to play music in spite of it, to get them to do something or say something in spite of it, or push back in spite of it.

Red, I can see the juices. I. I can just like you're like a wolf on a wounded yak yak right now. You're. You're so stoked.

Now. I just, I'm. I'm just taking it in. I mean. Yeah, it's just, I, I really like. Michael, what you're saying. Just, you know, it almost doesn't make sense. You know, in our. In a position when you're in pain, the idea of taking a different position.

Yeah, you're right. It. It doesn't make sense to play music while a boat is sinking. What makes sense is to get on a freaking boat and save your life. Yeah, it's not, it's. It's actually not rational to. In this case, to play music in the case of the vignette from the advanced techniques. It's not rational to wash myself. I know that I'm not going to get cleaned by washing myself. I also know that I'm not getting out of this concentration camp by washing myself with a small little rag. Yeah, it's. It. This is not a rational act. These are symbolic. But it does something to us to say it. It does something to us to do it. And when we're in our pain cycle, that is what we're doing. We're just surviving. Right. We are creatures that are supposed to do more than just survive. And when we say it from here, when we invite our clients to. That's what we're inviting them to do is do more than just survive.

Well, and it's appropriate. I think you invoked Tillich in the beginning. I mean I think a lot of. I think the lands. The look you saw my face is I. I dig existential theology and philosophy and soaring. Kierkegaard and those guys. And it. When we're in pain to do something radically different, to take a position of truth in our life. Does. Does it seems wildly crazy at times and not logical. You know, I was doing a little bit of experiential work with the client the other day. I had these hula hoops in my office. And this her like in her pain. And she couldn't take the step into the truth, you know, at least in her story. I just wrote. I got my notepad out and wrote a piece of paper. I wrote the word grace in between the hoops as like a bridge kind of. Because in this person's mind it.

Why.

Why should I even believe these things about myself? You know, and whatever. Whatever reason the word grace came to mind. Because grace seems wildly. Does not make sense. Right. And so I think sometimes taking a position of truth in our life is not make sense, but we do it anyways in spite of it, like you said. And it's in doing it in spite of it over and over again that I think we become in. It starts to embody. It starts to become characteristic of who we are.

Yeah. And it's the exercising of choice. It's the exercising of choice within that that is actually so regulating it isn't as though the truth isn't true.

Right.

Like it really isn't that. It's just that this choice and practicing and practicing, practicing making this choice is what is. Is actually regulating there, you know?

Yeah. And. And I think something else is going through my mind too. People might be listening. You know, this is. And I talked to Sharon about this at the summit, I asked her this question in our peer supervision group or peer group was. It's. It's risky in the room sometimes to try new things as a therapist. And, you know, and I said, a lot of us, we just got fresh out of grad school and our ethics are on our brain about how we operate in a room or don't operate in a room. And, and we had this conversation, you know, it. It does feel risky, even when everything is appropriately ethic just to step out and to try something new. And I think if someone's listening, you know, I just want to encourage people too, you know. You know, we have supervisors and colleagues for a reason and, and all kinds of stuff. And that there is risky behavior, which is not appropriate for therapy in terms of maybe how we operate these days. And then there's risky, which is us as a therapist taking a risk in our own lives to show up differently in the room for a client when it feels almost disorienting for ourselves or it creates anxiety for us. Does that make sense, that distinction?

Yeah, that's an important point. Yeah.

RT I think more I'm in it. Encourage you to take. Is encourage you to take a risk as a therapist to, to, as Terry says, stand up when you don't know what's going to happen next and just show up in the room differently. And I don't know. That's just. That's a growing area for me as a therapist. Like, if I could grow, there's a lot of areas I could grow. But specifically, RT I think learning to face my own anxiety in the room and work through some of these stuff that you two are describing is. Is where I, I would like to grow in this. In this model.

Yeah. Like, last time I was talking to Terry, he just has this, like, side comment that I've heard him say before, but is. Is profound to me. And it's like we were talking about marital therapy. That's just the class. And he's like, yeah, you know, and, yeah, remember, you can't do therapy afraid and just moves on to the next thing. And I'm just like, oh, yeah, you're. That's. That's right. That's. So. That feels, so. That feels so important in this model because to your point earlier, Rhett, where we may be in the. In the midst of this work and something's like, not working or it's not connecting and we might back off. Let me, Let me bring in this other model. Let me bring in this. Or I guess. I guess this just isn't right. But we learn from doing this model and working in this model to really stick with it and hang in there. And I think when we do that.

I think.

I think hanging in there is part of actually the art of this model. Staying with it. Absolutely. That's.

I like how you say that. It's so good.

Yeah. I still remember Terry talking about this idea to me, too, around the idea of, you know, let me tell you something, Lance. You know your best sessions, that you think you just nailed it, and it was the best, most amazing moment. Let me tell you something. Your client's going to come back and you're going to be like, you remember that last session was so amazing. And the client's going to look at you and they're going to say, oh, what do we do? And you said, I'm going to tell you something else, though. You know those horrible sessions that are like the worst session ever that you want to quit doing therapy and, you know, you think you're the worst therapist ever, and you're. You're like, just, you know, hey, I want to go into. Insert some job that nobody wants job. And you know, those sessions, those are the sessions that your clients come back where they make these amazing discoveries. Post session. I think we have to remember that therapy, even though it's an hour long in the. In the therapy room with you, there is way more that happens outside that one hour. And even if it feels like a total fail, there's something that we can hold on to that, you know, from a Christian perspective, is the Holy Spirit's working in that person's soul. And even though that didn't go the way that we wanted it to, what we envisioned or whatever, there's something that's happening there.

Wow, that's such an awesome reminder. I really appreciate that.

You know, I know I invoked a couple podcasts ago. Well, I was quoting just the title of Eugene Peterson's book about a long obedience in the same direction. And it's really a quote from Nietzsche. And Nietzsche in that writing talks about kind of the importance of, like, virtue and finding meaning in the face of, like, meaninglessness. Like, if you like to write or to dance, like, life is a long run and it's important to find some type of meaning in this. And I was thinking back to what you said about hanging in, like, whether it's the therapeutic. Therapeutic model or encouraging clients just to day in, day out, do the practice. There is something about in the face of life not making sense in the face of, like, Being in pain, we just keep marching forward. It's a long. It's a long obedience in the same direction, in spite of what's happening to, like you said, make choices. And, and it's in making the choices that we find freedom and we feel emotionally regulated. And that's, that's hard to teach and hard to say when we're just in our heads. But to help clients, like, experience that and practice that, I think is what is really life changing.

Yeah. Right here.

Right in the heart, baby.

I remember when I was like, sort of like first encountering rt, my kids were. Well, I mean, they were really young babies, but there was a lot of Lion King at some point, there was a lot of Lion King. It's all blurry now, but there's a lot of Lion King going on. And yeah, this, this scene where Simba is like, led to believe that he's going to see his father and he's like, led to the pond and Rafiki, you know, tells him, yeah, you know, like, go over and see him. And he looks in the pond and he's like, that disappoint. That disappointment with what he sees. It's just me, you know, it's same. It's the same. But Rafiki, the RT therapist that he is, hangs in there and points his long baboon finger at the pond and he's like, look harder. And I remember watching that and kind of going, that's the nature of hanging in there with the client, is just stay with it and keep trying or say it again or look harder or look from here. And I do think when we first start out in this model, there can be fear around hanging in there and that this will fail or this won't work or something. But the more I do this, the more I realize, you know, with. With wisdom, like, as much as I can, to hang in there. People have it within them to connect with it. You know, people have it within them. You know, our role is to help them do that in, in that moment, in that part of this model.

Yeah, Michael, I'm, you know, I'm aware of the fact that we're all therapists and we're all probably going to hop in session here very quickly. And so I know we'd love to have you on again. This is like, you have my brain, like, really thinking about some stuff that I think is really critical to the work of rt. I'm glad we went the direction of this truth piece because I think that's something that we all are working towards. But I was wondering, I mean, maybe it's the courage to be as hard as Tillich and Bart and these guys can be to read sometimes. Is there. Or maybe it's the Beekner video. Is there something for people listening that you would encourage them to go read or watch just to kind of like experience what you're been describing in terms of this truth and taking this position?

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, maybe not so much. I would have to think about that watch or read. As far as the truth in taking this position on. On one hand, I want to say that it's sort of codified in like every great story that we have this idea of like taking some kind of position in spite of or in the face of. So it's more like start to see that in whatever you're reading or listening to. But if you. But if you have not heard the 10 minute sermon by Frederick Buechner, the Stewardship of Pain. I know many have just from talking to folks in our community, but if you haven't, it is well worth it. Really nails a few points home.

No, I'll put that in the show notes and in the substack and I'm glad you brought that up because I feel like I know I'm do a lot of the RT community but when I hear that reference and Nicole will say it a lot. I didn't, I didn't know that you were all referencing a Beakner sermon. And so like I'm glad, glad to know that I'm gonna. I'm gonna go watch it myself or listen.

And I hope you take a moment today when you look up in the mirror, you take a moment and just look harder. Look harder. See beyond what you can see. And I hope you see something that is re. Revelatory of who you really are.

Well, Michael, thanks for taking the time. Really appreciate it.

Thank you guys. So far I. We all appreciate. I speak for, I'm sure speak for everyone watching. We are all so appreciative for. For this and get so much out of it. So thanks for having me. This is super fun.

You're awesome.

The thing, the thing I miss about seminary the most, to be honest with you, is like going out to coffee and just talking theology or therapy stuff with people. And so I feel like we could go another few hours, but so I'm looking forward to breaking bread with you in person, Michael, and talking and Lance seeing you again soon. And so thanks for tuning in everyone. And we'll have the show notes and everything. Michael discussed links up in the next episode here soon. Thanks, Michael.

Thanks, guys.

Cheers.