Season 1 | Episode 16 | The Notecard Intervention

Yo, are we on?

What's up, Lance Rhett? Oh, my gosh, dude. How you been, bro?

I'm good. I am hanging out in the afternoon, mid between sessions, drinking Americano.

Nice. I just made myself an affogato. No shame. Sometimes you just need that extra pick me up, you know what I mean?

Yeah. The hard thing, man, I've noticed as a therapist, I'm sure everyone can resonate with this. I think if you have any type of coffee maker in your office.

Yes.

Even if you don't, people probably bring in their own. It is really easy to drink a lot of coffee.

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's something I have to, like, turn it off at some point where I'm like, no more coffee after, like, noon. And we're at 1243 Pacific Standard Time today, so. Yeah, sometimes I break my own rules.

One of my treats for myself after a long therapy week is there's a. One of my favorite coffee shops. It's close to. It's like, I don't know. Walking distance to my office is I'll grab an Americano from Summer Moon on the way out. And it's just like that little coffee at the end of the week, a work week. It. Like it. I don't know, it just feels like it hits the spot.

Yeah. RT Dialogue brought to you by Silver Moon Coffee. Oh, yeah.

Should we tell people what this is? This is the RT Dialogue podcast.

Yes. Yes. Today we're doing a little something different, Right?

Yeah. So we are going to talk about an intervention that is now up on the sub stack that I wrote about. Lance encouraged me to write about it, and I hadn't really written about it, and we simply call it the note card intervention at this point.

Yeah. I mean, nothing says intervention like note card intervention.

Yeah. So let's jump into it. I thought I would just start with, like, origin stories. So here's. Here's what I remember. And again, I'm. This is my. I'm not saying I invented this note card. There are probably other therapists out there using this in their own forms. Right. But in terms of, like, the RT community, about 2010, I'm in a group therapy practice and I have a really big office at this point. Like, really big. I had a ping pong table in there and couch and bookshelves, and it was massive. And I remember sitting with a client and just. They're feeling really stuck, and I didn't know what to do. And so I walked over to my desk and I grabbed a handful of note cards, pretty much like if you're watching the video, like just simple 3 by 5 note cards. I think the ones at the time I was using, it doesn't really matter, but I remember at the time using the note cards, the different colored ones, you know, just. I like how they stand out. Like the purple, pink, green, yellow. And so I walked over, I grabbed a handful and I told the client, I'm like, let's just start talking about the things that you're anxious about, you know, that are bothering you right now. And I'll write them down on a note card. And so one by one, they tell me the things that are stressing them out that they're anxious about. I'd write it down and I write one thing on one note card. And by the end of that practice, my memory is there's about 15 note cards, 15 different things this client was stressed about, anxious about, worried about things that they were thinking about. And I had that stack with me. And I remember getting up and just walking around the room and laying them out on the floor.

And like you're taking note cards and you're just throwing them on the floor.

Yeah, not just, not just chucking them though. You could do that. I would. I just laid them out and not in any order. I just put them in a kind of a smattering of places just around my office. And my thought was, let's just separate them so the client can kind of get a good look at them. I thought, okay, if we can get the thoughts outside of their head, like, externalize it away from them, they can get a better, like, look at it objectively and I can get a better look at as a therapist. And so let's externalize it. And I don't think I had the language then. I do think I have it more now with the RT community. And that is I was for, as a therapist, I was trying to sequence and like kind of organize my own therapy there.

Totally.

And so the client is sitting there on the couch and I asked them to get up and I say, I want you just to walk around these cards and just look at them and let's just talk about them. And I might be more instructive now as a therapist with that practice, but for some reason, that client doesn't have to do much. They just started walking around. They would pick them up and look at them and they start talking about it. Well, this thing right here, I don't know. Yeah, I'm anxious about it, but it's not that big of a deal. And they put it back down. And then they'd walk to the next one and look at it and they'd hold it up and be like, this is a pretty big deal. I don't have to do it at the moment though. And they put it down and they'd walk to the next one and be like, well, forget this, put it back down. And they would do this. Over the course of, I don't know, it probably took about 10, 15 minutes. And after going through all the cards, they finally said, this is the one thing I think that I'm just most anxious about, most worried about, like stressed about. I don't remember the exact language there, but it was the one card of all the things that was their issue, like they were struggling with. And so I had them pick up all the cards that weren't as important and we put them to the side like in a stack. And I had them just hold on to that one card.

Wow.

And I. I was thinking about it in terms of the exercise even more now is I think there's some power and seeing the other cards off to the side in the sense that some of those stuff is still important, but we can't get to those today. We don't have the energy to them. But I still see them. I'm not going to bury them. I'm not going to pretend they don't exist. They're still kind of over here on the side. And then some cards they just realized weren't a big deal at all and we just kind of moved them out of focus. But there's one card that is like the central theme. And I remember just in that session, just talking then with the client about that one specific thing and just helping them kind of identify. What are your next best steps then like tell me more about this issue. What are your next best steps when you leave this office with this one thing, kind of game planning it.

Right.

And that was super helpful for the client. And I remember thinking, oh, I haven't really done anything experiential like that before. And I started doing it off and on over the years, but it wasn't always in my room. I wasn't always doing. Would just kind of come in every couple of weeks. I'm like, oh, this would be a good intervention to use with a client. And it wasn't like a main tool. And then at the anxiety intensive pilot, our first pilot that I'm co leading with Tanner Hargrave. Hargrove.

Sorry, Tanner. I'm sure Tanner listens to this religiously.

Yeah. And then Terry Hargrave. Sharon wasn't at this one. The first one was me, Tanner and Terry. We had six clients co ed doing a pilot anxiety intensive. And when we came up with the model interventions, we decided, I'm going to use this no card intervention on one of the days to help clients get the anxiety out of their head and look at what are the different things that make them anxious. Help them kind of like organize themselves. Help us as therapists, organize in sequence. And so we did that in the first pilot intensive and had people during. I think it was the afternoon of the second day, essentially just lay this stuff out on the floor and walk through them and kind of do the same thing that I described to you. And so that was like the genesis of it. And it's something that we then did in the first training at Windshape, which you were at. I was there in November of 22.

Yep.

And funny enough, how life works. I laid all the cards out. Yeah.

You're doing the intervention.

I'm doing intervention.

You're modeling how to do this intervention.

Yeah. Which is, you know, when. When you're teaching it, but kind of modeling. You're in that in between space kind of where you're talking, but you're also in it. And I laid a bunch of cards out, like 15 of them, I think, again. And the one I picked up at the very end, it just said something like, my marriage on it. And when I picked that up, I walked through the four steps, because by this point we would have clients pick it up, talk through all of them, and then practice their four steps around this piece. And I got really emotional because there was stuff going on in my life at the time, in my marriage, and I was really emotional and I was having a hard time keeping together because there was like a lot of people there. I think it was like 36 of you. And I remember finishing it up and putting it down. I'm like, I'm done. And I remember Terry standing up in the very back of the room. This is a.

This is a moment, you know? Yeah. Tell it.

And you can tell me. I mean, I don't think I'm. I'm not misremembering this, but he basically said something like, rhett, come back up here. Walk back up. Say it again. Say what again, Terry? Say your truth again. It didn't sound like you meant it, like it wasn't strong enough.

Yeah.

And as I say it. And then he kind of came in as like a. What would you call this intervention where he kind of like, he speaks truth into you kind of as like, other party.

Are we talking like, Gandalf experience? Like, are we talking about. Well, he's embodying truth for you.

I don't think he liked the truth that I had, that he wanted me to. He wanted me to dig deeper.

Yeah.

And at that time, I had trained for and failed a race in Europe, a big mountain race called the UTMB. It was like 106 miles and I did not finish. I DNF, they call it, at mile 20 up in the Alps. Really sick, probably Covid. But really it was, I think, the beginning of the end of me getting to the issues in my life. Like, my life kind of fell apart, which was the beginning, which. Which I think it was perfect in God's timing that that thing fell apart in Europe in August. And now here I am at the RT training, and so Terry's on the side. Like, Rhett, you just. You've been training, you've been doing these things, hard things, and you have what it takes. And, you know, he was just saying all this, like, powerful things, and I'm, like, trying not to cry in front of everybody. And he just had me say it again and say it again and say it again. And that shifted my life, actually, because I went home the next week and that was the beginning of life falling apart and transformation and the path towards restoration of my own life. So Terry kind of turned the script on my own note card intervention and used it on me.

Jerk.

When I hadn't planned to do that. And what was actually really beautiful about that is I had two people, one anonymously and the other anonymous in the beginning and then later shared walk up and leave me notes saying that their marriages were also not in good places. And so they appreciated me. So I was like, that's the beginning of this exercise. And so we've been using it as kind of. Terry really loved it. The clients really loved it. The intensive models. You've really used it. I think it sounds really powerfully in your own work. I've seen you use it also up in some trainings.

Yes.

So now we kind of consider that an important intervention in terms of RT and not just anxiety. We can use it for other things besides anxiety, but we kind of birth it out of the anxiety intensive.

Yeah. And some of the nuances that happen. You know, I want to, like, own what we're doing when we're doing this.

Yeah.

Because the goal of doing the no card intervention is really to, like you said, is to put it all out There and empower our clients. The amount of empowerment that happens when you're going through this is absolutely amazing. And, you know, having been a recipient of this intervention a couple of times personally, it's. I don't even know how to describe what it's like to pick up the one card like that one card that you're called to do. There is something. It's like a. It's a quintessential moment of like, where time pauses and we're doing battle right now. It's. It's something I don't even. It's been so remarkable in my own life to just even do this personally on my own place. But even with clients, as they grab that one. Um, and so what you do is, you know, just so we're clear. Yep, you're gonna have them. You said 15. Generally, the way I like to do it is 5 to 6.

No, I agree. I think 15 was really wildly.

Yeah.

In the beginning. But that also kind of was helpful for me to see how many things clients toss around in their brain at one time.

Totally.

But I think I agree with you. If you can say, here's five or six. Thanks. And now let me ask you this. Do you. I've had people pick them up one by one until they come to the one that they think is most important. So at that point, all the cards are in their hand and they're left with that one. I've also had clients walk around and just keep laying back down the ones they pick up and talk through and then put it back down until they finally come to that one that they're like, this is what I'm gonna hold on to.

Right. I think the thing that's really important is the laying out part that you name. Like when you're looking at them all in front of you and you'll see it on the sub stack, you have this picture of all these cards on the ground. When you have them all in front of you, I think that's the most important thing. And then whether they kick them away or they put them aside, it's just this empowerment step of dealing with the one thing.

Yeah.

You know, you got me into Cal Newport a while back and which book.

I got Deep Work right here.

Yeah. And you know, he really names this thing of like, really, like focused work is so important. And I think that's what we're doing is we're doing focused work on the thing. And then it's. This is a four step intervention too, I think.

Yeah.

You know, sometimes it gets Goofy. Trying to figure out how to get people to say their four steps. Well, if you need a good four step intervention, the note card is the one to do. You just have them lay them out and just name, like, what are you stressed out about right now? Just name five things that are on your mind. And then they pick it up and they drop them all down. Sometimes they describe them. I don't always have them describe them, you know.

No. But I have found sometimes when people talk through it out loud, you know.

Yeah.

They. They're in a position of, like, authority in their own life, speaking in their own life. And it's a really empowering place for them to decide on their own as they talk through it. Like, you know what? No, this is not that important. I'm gonna move on to the next one.

But so powerful.

Yeah, yeah.

When they. When they pause there and they're like, yeah, I don't need that. I'm fine. It's really nice to, like, make those rapid decisions on something that would normally just spin around in their brain forever.

Let me, as we're kind of. We'll progress through this. But I kind of want to just point out something too, that I tried differently a couple weeks ago. I didn't actually have the client stand up and walk through it. The cards were laid out on the floor between me and my chair and this client on the couch. And we were just both hunched over moving them around and organizing them in different ways. And I was like. I was aware of the fact I could get them and stand up, but there was actually something really powerful. It was like they were moving chess pieces from the couch and just organizing it. So I left them in the sitting position because they were organizing it. So I think as a therapist, just kind of being intuitive with your client too, about, am I going to get them up and walk around? Are they going to sit? But though we both agree getting up and walking through is probably the best.

Absolutely. You know, checkmate on pain, man. Checkmate. Got you. Do they do a castle maneuver?

Yeah. This book.

Yeah. Things Might Go Terribly, Terribly Wrong.

Yeah. Which I mentioned in the article. Things Might Go Terribly, Horribly Wrong. A Guide to Life Liberated from Anxiety. It's a great title of a book, by the way. Yeah. By Kelly Wilson and Troy Defrini. I just mentioned this book because I think the note car was birthed out of me learning some of their interventions where they. They encourage clients to sit with. To sit in the ambiguity of anxiety, meaning to be able to, like, talk through it and befriend it and learn from it, be curious about it. And there's something about writing stuff down and looking at it, walking around it that allows you to kind of sit in that ambiguity a little bit.

Yeah.

And not feel like it's so scary because you're there. You're a guide. You're helping them.

Mm. Yeah. So great. And then the other thing that you can do is after they do the no card exercise, you could have them write out their four steps on each one or have them practice the stop turn slow technique. And you can just. You can say here, how about I hold on to your pain this week? And you can pick up. We can pick it up when you get back. Just kind of like. Kind of like a neat little thing. You can organize around.

Yeah.

You know, also for when they come back. And you. You know, if it's been a while and you haven't seen them, and you can have them say, hey, you named these two months ago. How are we doing? It's a great way to track progress.

I like that I have not held a client's pain like that or taken it and brought it back out the following week or something in session. I think that's, like, a really powerful thing.

Absolutely.

Just that position of, like, I'm gonna hold this for you. Let me ask you, big picture. What do you think with the no card intervention are, like, the critical principles that are happening as we kind of continue to walk through the process here?

Yeah. You know, I think the big thing, and Terry talks about this a lot, is recognizing choice and empowerment. One of the big things with anxiety is we just ruminate really quickly. And what we're doing is we're. You know, Terry talks about, like, it's like a cascade of water or like dominoes that are being tripped. And what we're doing is we're giving them access to stop the flow of water or to grab the domino from falling down. And that empowered step says, you don't have to allow this to keep going. Right. By externalizing this and not having it in front of you anymore, we can now slow down, like, pause the clock or pause this tape. I don't know the right term here, but. And deal. Deal duty with what needs to happen right now. And I think that's one of the big thing with mindfulness is like, it's allowing yourself to be. Mindfulness isn't just like sitting and thinking, but there's this ability to be present with your pain and what's going on inside of you in the moment.

Yeah. I think getting the cards, the thoughts, other than the paper is a great way to like, like, externalize and to look at the pieces, which I do think is a position of, like, empowerment.

Right.

And I like the idea of when you walk through the cards and pick them up. It's learning you, I think, to. I don't know if the word is encounter, to sit with your feelings, to recognize your feelings, to process your feelings, to talk through them. I find that to be really, really helpful.

It's also, like, an easy way to get people, clients to stand up. I think one of the big things that Terry always encourages us to do is when you don't know what to do, stand up. You know, that's the courageous step. Well, now you have something to do when they stand up to say, all right, let's fill. I want you to stand up and look at these note cards. This is, like, an easy thing that has these poignant moments that, you know. And I want to say, like, when you did that intervention, Terry really paused you on that. And I think this is really important when you're doing four step with clients, to double down. That truth is absolutely super powerful, as well as encouraging that four step. And I love the way, as I recall, Rhett is. Terry said your name and such a. It felt like, you know, God from on high was saying rhett, you know, and he really held you, you know, like, we're doing this goofy intervention. It was. We're doing battle right now, Rhett.

No, it shifted from a teaching moment, modeling something, to now I'm in the. I'm in the intervention itself.

Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was awesome. They. I'll tell. I. I don't know. Do you want to hear my part or, like, how I did it in front of everybody?

Yeah.

I don't want you to feel like you're the only one, like, being vulnerable.

No, go ahead.

Yeah. So when I did it, I. I grew up in Virginia, and I now live in California. And one of the things I struggle with a lot is being away from my parents. You know, like, I love my. Both my parents very much, and my dad has had a. Had cancer for, you know, a few years now. It's like this cancer that just hides out there. And so I was, like, doing my new car cards, and I had, like, you know, stuff happening at work. I had, you know, finishing my doctorate. You know, this is like, all these different things. And then I looked at this card, and I was like, my dad's cancer was, like, on the card, and it was so crazy. It Was like, the card had this. It was, like, lighting up at me. It's like, you have to deal with me right now.

Oh, man.

You have to deal with me right now. So I had to grab that card, and I was sitting there staring at the card and trying to figure out, what am I gonna do with this, like, struggle inside of me about, you know, knowing that I'm gonna lose my dad one day. And, you know, so I had to go through my four steps where, for me, it was feeling like a failure, right? Totally feel like a failure that I left Virginia. So my big thing is I would just shut down and avoid it. But that was no longer a choice then and there in front of everybody. So I had to say, you know, I'm still called. Like, I am called to do this great work. And my next step was just to be present and be myself. And I don't know, like, after we did that, after I went through my four steps once again. This is where. This is kind of the trick of the trade is, like, once you've named your four steps, then you can double down on it. And they did an intervention with me talking with my dad about, you know, where I am and how. How I'm dealing with the cancer. And, I don't know. It's just really. I felt so much more at peace instead of feeling frantic about being away from him, which made me way more connected on our phone calls.

Did, did you. I was just curious in the intervention was, were you, like, this is my next best step, or as you kind of walk through your four steps, you just kind of came to a place of, like, you know, just intuitive knowing, like, this is what I got to do, or this is how I got to be in terms of how I move in the world, you know, or was there, like, a real direct action or out of that place?

So what happened was they did a psychodrama with us, and they had me pick out someone in the room, which is. This is the beauty of group work, is you can just pick random people to. To be my dad. So I, I picked. I didn't pick Terry. That'd be too on the nose. But I, I, I picked a good friend of mine. And, like, we were. I had a discussion with him as my dad, right? And it was really funny because he said things. I was like, my dad wouldn't say that. He's like. But I was able to say, this is what my dad would say, right? So I was able to reconcile a lot of my grief, which for me was recognizing that My dad is still proud of me. And then I think the next steps that I walked away with, to answer your question, along with, was just staying connected. Like, that was like the big thing for me was like, you know, and I would say that happened two years ago. I have done so much cool stuff with my dad since.

Yeah. You sent me a photo from the other day when you guys were out at NASA.

Yeah, my dad worked at NASA, so we went to the Houston Space Center.

Yeah.

We met up there. We, like, toured. And he's like, showing me. He showed me his first project at NASA, which was Skylab. And he also saw his last project at NASA, which is the Orion Project, which is Mission to Mars. So, you know, he's a cool guy. I love my dad a lot, and I feel like because of doing this work, like, I feel so much more connected to him. And I'm not anxious about what's going to happen to him. I can just connect with him as my dad.

Yeah. It's not lost to me that you and I have both been profoundly impacted by a note card intervention which led to my own journey of restoration and just a beautiful place in my marriage today that I love. But it all started with, you know, it almost is like the no card intervention itself is a tool that we think is very helpful, but there's a lot of flexibility to it.

Yeah.

In terms of opening up other avenues. Like you just mentioned, it led into a psychodrama. Right, right. For some clients, it just leads to when they walk out of your office, have the four steps they know, like, when they leave, this is their next best step, which might be, you know what, I'm gonna go home and go for a run because that's taking care of myself and that's what I need right now. Or you know what, a couple days from now, I'm gonna sit down and have this conversation with my spouse because that's what I've identified here in session today, or sometimes it may be. I just needed to sit with this and identify what it was and to process it and to. And to be present to it in this moment.

Yeah. And I think it's such a gift. I always think of like, you know, in Star wars, you know, like where Luke is learning the Force. He's like, with Yoda, you know, there's like this. He learns how to use the Force, and then there's this moment where he goes into the cave. Right. And Dagobah for. Sorry for all those non nerdy people out there. But when he goes into the Cave, he meets his art, he meets his arch nemesis, Darth Vader. And as he kills Darth Vader, as he has this battle with Darth Vader, like underneath, as he kills him, he sees himself. It's this amazing battle where he recognizes the battle that he. He's dealing this against himself. Amongst other things, about not going to the dark side. And we're just trying to get people to go from the pain side to the peace side. Right?

Yeah. Well. And like, I hate that I say the word like a lot. I'm just gonna throw that in the podcast out loud. I'm around too many teenagers like this. Like that.

I think I got you on lock on that.

I what I also love about laying the cards out on the floor. And sometimes I'll organize them around in certain positions that. Especially if you're having them write their four steps on the cards. Yeah, it's just transitioning from pain cycle to peace cycle. Transitioning from the old self to the new self. Right. And something I do, and I put this in the article, is sometimes, because I have these hula hoops in my office that I use as kind of boundary. Boundary markers of differentiation when I'm working with couples or not with couples. And sometimes I'll put the one card inside the hula hoop where the client is, and all the other cards out there just kind of signify this is your place, your stance of where you need to be that you've identified to empower yourself to work on this, to move from pain to peace. And these other things out there you don't have any control of right now, or they're not important to you right now, at least in terms of what you've identified. And just being in that space physically, I think can help them recognize. Oh, yeah, those things out there, I can't get to them right now, or they're not that important, or I don't have control. But this one thing that I'm standing on top of or next to inside the hula hoop, this is what I'm working on. And you can just be so creative in the therapy room with the note card stuff.

Love it. And then they can do the hula afterwards.

Yeah. And if you don't have note cards, which, you know, they're super easy to buy and cheap. And I've also put a link in the article. You know, I'm trying to reduce waste in my own office. There are like Sharpie Expo type erasable note cards that you can purchase also. Oh, yeah, you can write on those. And Use them in multiple sessions. Now you can't send them home with the client, which sometimes I send the cards home with the client.

You know what I do? I have them take a picture.

Yeah, that's great too. And if I don't have cards, like, I've used paper and I've written on pieces of paper and ripped the paper in little pieces and scattered the little pieces around the office. So I think you just utilize whatever's around you.

Man, Rhett, I wish we lived closer together. I'd love to see you in the flow.

Well, let's just. Cause you and I have been bantering about this exercise intervention and. Yeah, I appreciate that, Lance. I don't want to. I. I was thinking I'd like to go surfing with you. That have been awesome. Yeah, we'll have to do that. Yeah.

I mean, that's like, literally you're choosing your wave or you're choosing your card.

My brother in law and Lance used to go surfing before seminary class.

Yeah, before class.

Back in the day. This is before I even knew Lance.

Yeah.

And then I'm like, oh, we kind of have a connection here because Lance is friends with my brother in law.

Yeah.

Small world.

Dude, Drew is freaking. That guy is amazing.

Drew's the pastor at Bel Air Prez. Good dude. We'll have him on the podcast sometime because he's into rt. Also. I. What I wanted to say, but I didn't want to skinned by the fact that I appreciate your comment about. It'd be cool if we live closer and could do some fun stuff together. Let's. Let's just sequence for the listener. If they wanted to kind of walk through the exercise with the client in the room from beginning to end. What that looks like.

Yeah.

Knowing there's lots of flexibility within it.

Yeah. So step one, hand them how many note cards?

Five to six.

What do you ask them to do?

You ask them to write down on each note card. What. For example, if we're dealing with just anxiety, I might have them write the five to six things they're anxious about. If we're not even talking about anxiety. For example, I might write one of the five to six most important things right now that you feel like you're dealing with in life, the five to six big issues. And you write them down. You have them write them down on one card a piece.

One card a piece.

There are times where I'll write down stuff also sometimes. But what we've found, it's really powerful for them to write it down themselves on a Card?

Yeah. So you write it down on the note card. Then after they've written it down on the note card, what's the next step?

Well, I typically will take the cards from them and lay them around the floor because I kind of like want to spread them out in certain ways, but I know, too. Right. Have you had clients laying down themselves and spread them out?

Yeah, when I do it with a group, I have them do it themselves. But I think the key is lay out the note cards. Either you do it or the client does it, and then have them talk through each other. One.

Yeah. And I like to have some spacing. If you have a big enough office where they can kind of walk through them and look at them. So, yeah, that's. That's the next step.

Yeah. So then what is. What are you encouraging them to do next as they're looking through these cards?

I encourage them to. I actually use this language, like listen to their gut, feel the energy in their body when they come up against a card and to pick it up and just to look at it, be curious about it, ask questions about it. And I'll say, you know, just talk through how you. How you feel about this. But I'm. Overall, what I'm instructing them is to get familiar with these until they've identified the one that they feel is, like, the most important today to talk through, to actually work on.

Yes. They pick the one that they're going to work on. So they pick up that card. Right, right. And then. Or you. Sometimes I'll hold a card in front of them.

Yeah.

And then. Then once they've picked up that card, what do you ask them to do?

Well, once they pick it up, I ask them just to talk. Talk it through with me. Like, how they. What's going on with that card? Describe that situation to me. How do you feel about that situation? You might use a different prompt. Is there something you say specifically that's perfect?

I think the goal is that you're trying to get them to manifest the feeling going on inside of them.

Yeah. How does that feel? You could get into the emotions. What's that like when you pick up that car, what are you feeling? I've never had a client. Just once you do this exercise, it's not like we put them all on the floor and they go straight to the one. It's like there's this intuitive sense that they want to look at them and walk through them. And I don't think that just comes from our instruction. I think there's a Sense of like, I want to like, look at the pieces.

Yeah. So they look at the one, they pick the one and then you have them talk about it. And then the goal is this is an intervention. So you want them to practice. This is like the big practice theme. So we want them to practice one of two things. Right. Either do your four steps or practice the stop, turn, slow, right?

Yes. And we've talked about Stop, turn slow in a previous episode. But do you want to just say real quickly what Stop, turn slow is?

Yeah, so stop, turn slow is basically what we do is we stop, which is a. Like we don't want to continue down the flow. So we've named the one thing and we look at that, we breathe, we name the trap. Right. What's that thing? That's internal, external. Is it a sense of feeling unsafe or a sense of feeling unloved? Once you name that trap, then we turn towards the, you know, the truth or what's the thing I need to know in the midst of this? And then you want to make a slow step towards that healthier next step that you can do.

Yeah. And so stop, turn slow and the four steps are two different things. We got a lot of confusion at the anxiety pilots and intensives because it was a fairly new intervention to stop, turn slow. But those are two different interventions you can do at that moment once they have that one card in their hand.

But the cool part is that happens is when they start to learn how to use it and when to use it, which is what I love. Right. Like, oh, this is definitely discipleship type stuff. This is like getting my. This is like new changing my mindset type of stuff, which is doing four step work, right? Yeah. Versus like, oh my gosh, I'm so anxious right now. My body's like in spin. Ah. You know, freaking out right now. I should do stop, turn, slow, right?

Yeah. How do you feel about this? Sometimes after I've done that, especially if it's earlier in a session where we kind of have this like experiential moments and they've identified that one thing, that one thing might be new to me a little bit and new to them to recognize it even. And so I might. We might just stand there and talk through it. I might work on some more insight around it. We might sit down for them a little bit and they kind of move into that different position and I gather more information because that may be the first time they're like, this is the thing. Yeah, I might like, okay, tell me more about this. And so there is sometimes a flow with it where you're moving from some up on your feet experiential and then also some insight work or the whole session could be just experiential. By the time they walk out your door, it's like they haven't sat down and there's a note card in their hand.

Yeah.

And they're on to like the next best step for them.

Right. They're ready to go kill Voldemort or something like that.

Yeah.

Is there.

You know, let's be. I think the reality is, you know, one of the reasons we're talking about this is because I don't really know of any other place that we've talked about it.

No.

It's been mentioned in some trainings and practice in some trainings. And so you and I are kind of just. We've thought through this a lot. I've written about it. And so there are pieces we're still putting together. It's a work in progress, I think, in many ways. And so I'm just going to put this out there. I would be curious too, if anybody has found success using the note card intervention and some really cool ways that they use it within the scope of RT and what we're trying to do. I'd like them to reach out to us or leave some comments in comments the. The podcast or email us at restorationtherapydialogmail and just tell us about that because, you know, I think there are ways that we can even improve this intervention.

I agree. I think there's a lot of. It's, you know, we call it the RT dialogue, not the RT monologue. You know, we're here to learn from one another in community. So we're so thankful for everybody that participates.

Although you and I are some of the best at monologuing.

Lord help us. The pastor dies hard, man.

Yeah, I was thinking we'll end. We won't go on too much, but like, we gotta. I was. I've been noticing a lot of episodes. All the former pastors, now therapists, we gotta do an episode on that someday.

Yeah, man. Yeah, Definitely need to.

Well, anything else say about the note card adventure? I think that about covers it for now.

You know, I think I just want to say thank you. This is such a great intervention. I think it's such a gift to the RT community. One of the things that we where. Where people struggle is four steps. How do I get people to do their four steps? Know what? One of the best way to get people to do their four steps is, is to have them face the things that trigger them. So put it in front of them. Make them do it. They'll start using in real life a lot more.

Yeah. And, you know, like, it's cool. I mean, that's really thoughtful that when people thought of the note card invention, Terry's like, oh, this is Rhett. Rhett thought of this note card invention, I think, because I used it at the pilot. But the cool thing about therapy work is we're just building on everybody around us. We've come before. And so even though I have this memory of utilizing this note card, it has to be something I read or picked pieces up together and then just got inspired that moment. And so it's cool that we can be, you and I can be a part of a community where we learn something, we practice it, we pass it on, people tinker with it, make it better, improve on it. And we now we just have all these cool tools within the RT community. A lot more that we need to discuss in further podcasts as well.

Totally, dude. Great talk, bro. Look forward to the next one.

Yeah, Lance, it's good hanging out as always.

Always. Cheers.

Cheers.