Season 1 | Episode 17 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Jason Wilkinson

Lance, what's up, man?

Rhett. Dude, I, this is actually even. Sometimes we do this and we're like literally doing it back to back the last two, but this one, we're actually. It's been a while.

Yeah, it's been a couple weeks. And I'm, I'm not gonna lie. My daughter graduated last week, graduation party. It's been a year of trying to figure out college stuff. Super excited for her. But I hit like a major. I don't know, like just little depression after the weekend. So you guys are the first people who are gonna help me navigate out my way out of it.

Today's today. We, we have, you know, a lot of work to do here.

It appears special intervention time.

Job celebrating a job well done. It's so weird, like when you hit these transitions in life, right? You like, want to celebrate the great stuff, but then. Ah, man. Well, my heart goes out to you, Rhett.

Thank you. We'll, we'll, we'll process that. I know you're back from a trip too. Just over in Ireland and England.

Yeah, man. Got to follow the trails of C.S. lewis and some other notable people in the world of Christianity. Pretty awesome as I'm like on cloud nine after it, so. But my, I'm a little jet laggy today. So today, today you're going to get Lance Alakart, whatever that means.

So you're saying our guest Jason has work cut out for him today?

Well, the good thing is we do have Jason today who is pretty amazing therapist up in the Pacific Northwest. He is RT level one trainer, which is pretty exciting now that Terry's opening that up to other people. And I'm sure we'll get to hear more about that as we go along. I've, I've gotten to meet him a few times. We started off with working with Sharon doing the leadership series, I think it was it called. I forget the name of it. Relate. Strong leadership. Yeah, so we got to know each other a little bit there. But this is a guy that keeps on impressing, so I think it's time to get him on the podcast. He's actually a fan, so it's kind of fun to have a fan on here.

I am a huge fan, guys. Huge, huge fan of everything that you two are doing with the RT dialogue. So I, I, when are the T shirts coming out? When are we getting like the stickers? When's the merch coming? I got.

Oh yeah, man, we need to, I gotta rep that we sell some merch to offset the next summit or Something like that, yes.

Good stuff.

Hook me up.

Well, Jason, we're glad to have you. And I think we actually first met at the summit, right in Amarillo. First time face to face there.

Yeah, that was our first time meeting Rhett. But the funny thing is, and I remember introducing myself to you and just saying, like, hey, you don't know me, but I've known you for a long time. Time. And it was one of those things where I was turned on to you when I first got to into therapy, and I had a friend who you knew from down in Southern California, when I was telling her and talking to her, Lindsay Sturgeon, I was talking to her and saying, like, hey, I'm going into therapy. I'm trying to figure out my modality. I really like restoration therapy. And she looked at me and didn't look at me. We were chatting online, but she said, like, oh, hey, you gotta follow Rhett. And so I got your book, I started listening to your podcast. I got even more excited about restoration Therapy, and just things really took off for me from there. So, yeah, in my mind, Rhett, you are a celebrity. You are just like, yeah, way out there.

Well, that's the beautiful thing about the RT community, you know, Like, I haven't seen Lindsay in person probably since like 2007, 2008, when I was living in Pasadena still. And it's just a cool community of people who, you know, get to get to know each other kind of through word of mouth, and then we get to meet in person and build and build relationships. So that's what's exciting about it. So that man, small world.

Which of Rhett's books were you reading?

It was the Anxious Christian, I believe. That was the one that really kind of got me going. Right. So listen to that. And at the time, I was in ministry, so that's what I was kind of doing. I was doing ministry, studying therapy, thinking about couples work and individuals and young adults and, like, what direction I was going to go and found restoration therapy. And wow, this works with everything. So I'm going to go in that direction. So that's kind of how it all happened.

Yeah, it's crazy. This will have to be, I always say, a topic on some other podcast I want to explore, but I'm like, oh, Jason's got his M. Div from Fuller too. Like, how did we all end up doing our M. Divs pastoring? And then now we're all in the MFT therapy world. It's like an interesting journey that many people seem to take yeah, yeah.

And I can say, like, for me, like, I had gotten my M. Div And I hadn't. I thought I was going to be in ministry forever. Right. Like most of us, when we go and do that. And then I saw the rise of anxiety and depression amongst young people just kind of skyrocket, skyrocketing while I was doing student ministry. I did student ministry for 18 years, and then I was seeing the rise of anxiety and depression. And I thought, I'm not equipped to do this. And I really want to be helpful. Like, I want to figure this part out and be more helpful to families and everything. So I started at George Fox here in the Pacific Northwest. I went to their. I enrolled in the counseling program there. And as it was going along, it's just kind of like this, you know, that push, pull thing. It's like, oh, maybe my time in ministry is coming to an end. And I was coming up to student internship and it's really hard when you got two young kids to be doing ministry full time and going into student internship where you're basically also doing that full time, trying to get your hours and everything. So, yeah, one of those things where it's like, let's make the leap. And that's kind of how I. I mean, that's the short story of it. That's how I got going into therapy.

That's awesome. Yeah. And is Richard Shaw. Were you connected with him up there?

Yeah, yeah. Dr. Richard Shaw. He was the guy that I was in his relate strong class. And.

Okay.

Sitting there in class, I remember signing up for it because there's like, EFT is. Was all the rage with couples. And I was in the MFT program and I was thinking like, well, I guess I got to go eft. But I. I didn't love it. Like, it was. It's a good theory. It's a nice theory. But it, like, for me, there was stuff that just was not jiving. And so I signed up for the relate strong class because there was this RT restoration therapy talk kind of going around. And I was like, well, I'll take that just to see. And remember reading the book before class, the purple book, Right. I'm reading the book and I'm reading through it.

I'm like, classic.

Oh, this stuff makes sense. Like this just. I love this. I love the self regulation. I love how it organizes, not just the clients, but me as the therapist. Right. All those things that we all love about RT and then sitting in class, sitting there with Dr. Shaw and he zoomed in Sharon Hargrave. And Sharon, you know, she gave the spiel on it and I was. I was hooked. I signed up for level one training. It just so happened that Dr. Terry Hargrave was coming up to Fox, George Fox, to. To do a level one training. So I signed up for that right away and then loved that. Immediately after that, signed up and took Level two training. And I mean, I've just been.

What year was that, Jay?

Oh, man. You know, I didn't think through the timeline here. That was probably 2019. Okay, 2019. Yeah, that must have been around 2019 when I was doing all of that. Yeah. And things really. I mean, just kept meeting with the Hargraves after that and got invited down to Pepperdine for the Relate Strong series that they were building. Got to meet Lance and a bunch of other really cool therapists now doing a lot of that congregational care consultation that they set up. We can talk about that a little bit more too, but just.

Yeah, why don't you say a little bit about that part? Because I think we haven't really highlighted that part as much. Why don't you share about how that's going and what you've noticed with it?

Yeah. So like with when it was first kind of starting out and being fleshed out, like, Sharon Hargrave at the Boone center for the Family at Pepperdine created. Started creating a lot of this relate strong material. And really the goal of it was to. I didn't create it. I mean, there was all. There was already a lot of relate strong material, but started really kind of creating stuff that would help churches kind of connect churches with mental health tools and exercises and really education to help churches really figure out, like, how can they be active in the area of mental health. Because not everybody needs to see a therapist. Not everybody needs to go and see therapy, but churches need to be educated and trained on how they can provide some small level, introductory level of mental health tools to people. So they. They went ahead and. And now it's Dee Dee Mayer, who's. Dr. Dee Dee Mayer, who's following through and. And kind of really building it out some more. But they're going around to different churches presenting this material, introducing them to restoration therapy, relatestrong, the pain cycle, the peace cycle, and a bunch of different topics too, that they are building out in terms of helping churches understand addiction, helping them understand and work with people struggling with pornography, anxiety, depression, relationships, leadership, you name it.

And they're just parenting.

Parenting. Yeah, yeah. The parenting one is great. I've done that one Michael Cox. Fantastic. So, like, just so much good material and, you know, congregations love it. They just love it and it's so helpful for them and it's such a great introduction into that world. And I think for churches and congregations too, it's such a great tool because one, it helps them understand and build empathy for the surrounding world. They get, they love the pain cycle, like everyone does. When they see that pain cycle and understand it, it's just so easily understood so that congregations, pastors, they, they love that. And it gives, it equips them to understand how other people struggle a little bit and understand that people are responding out of their pain too. And I think that's just, it's such a huge thing. But then also the other part for churches too, which is really great, is it can be a great tool to really be helpful and a light in your community.

Yeah.

You know, people who are struggling. Anxiety is such a huge topic in, in society right now. Addictions is always a big thing. Marriages and relationships is always going to be a big thing. So churches really can use these tools and seminars basically to go out into the community and really say, like, hey, we've got something for you. And even if you're not into Christianity or Christianese, like, we've got something. Yeah, it's just a, it's, it's a way to really be a blessing to your community without really expecting much back. I don't know. I think it's phenomenal. You can do it for your congregation and invite everybody else to come along with you.

Yeah, I really recommend checking it out. It's Boone center for the Family and the Resources. You know, Dee Dee's in charge of it now, like Jason's talking about. And I know you got to do some of it as well, Rhett, but.

Yeah, it just made me think about. I think I was at pepperdine between like 2017, 2016, 2020, doing those workshops and I was doing the anxiety depression piece. And it just makes me think about, you know, all the behind the scenes work that it takes to test things out and to see what resonates, what's working with certain populations, what doesn't. And then all these years later, now you see this progress program out there helping in the church congregation, which I think is a very exciting piece about restoration therapy, which is if there's something that you're interested in and excited about pursuing, like to dig in and do that work locally in your community to test it out, to try it. And when you do that over time and you get people to come alongside you. You can launch a really just helpful tool or resource that can spread out. I mean, I. I never would have thought all those years ago, just sitting in that. Those rooms at Pepperdine, doing those workshops, that it'd be what it is today.

Yeah.

You know, pretty cool. That's cool. Yeah. And that everyone's doing their own part, you know, working on these pieces.

Yeah, Yeah, I remember. I love that, too. Like, even just what you said, Rhett made me think of. I remember being a part of the first time we presented, like, this newer material to a church. A group of us presented it to a church in the Bay Area, and I remember Sharon kind of, like, handing us the paper. We didn't have the nice books that. That they have now.

Yeah, the pamphlets are really cool now.

Yeah, they look great. They're really cool. And she's just like, well, we don't know exactly how this is going to turn out, but here's Jason, you're doing the Addiction. And I think it's either Luke Wilkerson or Dee Dee, who did pornography or intimacy in marriage or something like that, but they're like, here's the Addiction one. Go ahead and take a look. And we got to look over it a little bit, but it was just like, we don't know what to do or what we're doing. Exactly. I'm sure Sharon and Terry really knew what they were doing, but they're like, here, just take this and go and present it. And, you know, we're all experimenting together.

Yeah.

They're in a live audience with, like, I don't remember how many pastors and congregate congregants there, but it's just like, all right, well, here we go. We're just going for the ride. And it's. It's been a fun ride. And, of course, seeing the material now, it's so much better. It's so much more complete, very professional. The videos are fantastic. Fantastic. So, yeah, I would recommend that people kind of check that material out if they are looking for something that they can offer to local churches and congregations, because I think the material is phenomenal.

I mean, there's so many, like, the sexuality. One in particular, I think that, like, talking about, like, sexual intimacy done by the Simontons is just absolutely amazing. The way they kind of structure everything, and they talk around healthy sexuality. They talk about, you know, how to engage, you know, So I would definitely recommend checking it out. The Simon tents are, like, incredible, man.

Yeah, they're doing. Yeah.

Jason, I'm curious About, like, you know, you talked about reading the Purple Book and that just, like, clicking for you, you know, But. And you're. You're, you know, you're a level one trainer, too. Like, what is it about RT that, I don't know, just you love that makes everything go. That makes you passionate about wanting to teach it and stuff. I'm sure there's a few pieces, but I'm just curious what that is, you know, all these, you know, years later. What is it that gets you super excited about the model?

Yeah, I. So there's. I mean, there's so much. Right. But I think the thing that it really, it comes down to that's just so. It's so, so good, and it's so easily organized. As the therapist, it all comes down to the love and the trust. So even as we're talking in the violations there. So even as I'm working with clients and I'm figuring out or I'm trying to help them, you know, we're organizing, we're structuring, we're sequencing, we're coming up with their pain cycle and everything that's there. It doesn't matter if it's an individual. It doesn't matter that's coming in for anxiety or if it's a couple that's coming in ready to get divorced and this is their last. Their last effort before they do it. I know walking in that it's going to be violations of love or trust that are the big things that are happening there. And I know that, that when we come down, we sit down, we talk through things, I'm going to be able to figure it out. Like, I'm going to be able to figure out what their cycle is, what the pattern is, what those violations are. When it really kind of comes down to it, and whether I'm going to be able. Whether. Whether the client is going to be willing to do that work. I don't have control over that part, but I know in my mind I'm going to be able to figure it out. And I love the empowerment piece. The individual is empowered to make a choice to decide what they're going to do. When I reflect on that part, it takes a lot of responsibility off of my shoulders. When I remember that this is all about empowerment, I don't have to. I don't want to make a client do anything.

Yeah.

I'm there to help them see, this is what's happening. And now you get to choose what it is that you want to do. It takes a lot off of my plate, just as a therapist, a lot of pressure to go ahead and do more than what I really need to do. Like, the person, typically a person that comes in to the therapy office or my therapy office, you know, I didn't break them. They're coming in because they're hurting. So me helping them point out, like, this is what's happening, and helping them see that insight and then making them. Helping them, bringing them to a point where they get to choose what to do next. I mean, it's just. It. To me, it just. It's very. It's very simple. I don't get lost very often, but when I do get. I should say I don't get lost very often anymore, having done it for as long as we have. But when I do still, when I do get lost, I know how to get back.

Yeah.

Because it goes back to those violations.

Yeah. I think that's one of the gifts of restoration therapy, and I think that, you know, we always have those four, like, points that we can go back to in session. Do you want to highlight that a little bit more about. Because you're a level one trainer, which I think that's really important about those kind of four points that we always look at when we're working.

So are you talking the four points. You're talking about the blame, shame, control, escape?

No, I'm actually talking about, like, you know, sorry. There's. So the four objectives of restoration therapy. Like, you know, one is to, like, you know, the first thing that we do is we. We want to kind of. We used to use the language of chasing the pain, but, like, understanding the pain cycle, kind of getting down to those violations of love and trust is kind of like that first step whenever we're working with our clients in the room, you know, and then. And then the second thing that we're doing is we're always, you know, and this is your option. Whenever someone's in the room with you, you're like, okay, do I need a chase pain right now? Is that what's going on? Do I need to reorganize around the truth? Right. And, you know, do we need to work through this idea about, you know, that maybe one of these pain cycle things aren't clear enough for them, or do I need to help them to construct the peace cycle? Or do we need to start, you know, and this is one of the big things that Terry's really been pushing us on is. Is practicing the four steps within it. It's always nice. It's like, I can choose one of the four, and I'm probably gonna get some good work going.

Well, so wait, say the four again because, I mean, I don't even know even if I would come up with the four that you're referring to, so.

Oh, this is great.

Yeah, no, this is helpful because I could go in my mind a different direction of four things, you know. So what would you say they are, Lance?

So the first thing that we're doing in restoration therapy, I would say, is that we're constructing that pain cycle that Jason's talking about. You know, so we want to understand these violations of love and trust. You know, love usually attaches to identity. Trust usually attaches to safety. And those violations are the core of where the bad behavior is coming from, whether it's the blame, shame, escape, or control. That scene in the room. So that's like the first phase, number.

One is construct the cycles. The pain and peace cycle.

Yeah. And that's where you do like the organizing, the structuring and organizing, sequencing and structuring, which is just repeating back to the person what they're doing, where it's coming from. Then you kind of put in the pain cycle. So that's one. Number two is putting together that peace cycle, Right?

Yep.

Or, excuse me, the truth. Right. And this is where we use those big truth interventions. You know, the three big daddies in restoration therapy is, you know, the classic of re parenting. Right. Where we kind of take that big violation of love and trust and we're trying to help our client to get connected to first, someone that's outside of themselves. Right. That's at the same age of where that violation happened. Then we get them to themselves when that violation happened. Then we have them talk to themselves in the room now, trying to reestablish truths. Or you can use the two screen method, which we'll probably do a podcast on that some. Some point that was created. Another great thing from the Simonton's. Simonton's getting a big shout out today. Or the final piece would be using the older, wiser self, which is what you do is you take a good moment in the client's life or them imagining who they're going to be in the future and speaking to their pain so they find that truth. So that's the second thing is, is really establishing good truth. Then the third thing is working around the peace cycle. Right. This is where we construct that peace cycle out with them. Where we kind of have these three boxes, if it's individual, where the three boxes would be what's the truth? What's the new action? And then how do others react to that? So you're really. That's where you're like saying, this is that new person, that new self behavior. So that's the third objective. And then the fourth would be finally using the four steps and just helping them to go through. Say what you feel, say what you normally do, say the truth and say what you're going to do differently.

Well, and I think one of the hopes of this conversation and other times we get together is you got Lance in San Diego, I'm in Texas, Jason's in Oregon, and there's other people in rt and we're all doing a lot of the same work, but I think sometimes trying to. I think, I think there's a, I think a hope that we can try to get towards some of the same language, because I know over time we start using different language or different tools or we get, we get out of the, out of the process of rt. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

And so, like, and Jason, man, I like what you said a minute ago. When a client comes in or a couple, it's like, I'm gonna show you what's happening, and it's your choice to decide what you want to do about it. Yeah, like, when you said that, I actually just felt anxiety leave my body about a couple of sessions I have later today.

Yeah. It's actually one of the first things that I tell clients when they, when they come in is just I. It's typically in, in my opening spiel, it's like, well, you know, we're going to go ahead, we're going to map out kind of what you're doing a little bit, like how you're responding, the emotions or thoughts or beliefs that you're carrying around with you. And then you're going to have the choice to. We'll put some tools in place and you'll have the choice to use them or not use them. It's, it's. It's one of those things where I think it's so important to RT that you just let people know. Like, you get to choose. And you, a guy, tell them. I'm really intentional when I say you're gonna have the opportunity to choose. I can't make you do it. I don't want to make you do it. You don't want to feel like I'm making you do it, manipulating you. Like, you don't want that as a client. So I can, the best I can do is show you how and encourage you, and that's what we'll do. And I have yet to have a client tell me, oh, I don't want that, or that sucks. Most of the time, they all know, and especially when I tell them, like, we're going to be active, I'm going to hold you accountable or at least point out the things that you want to change. And, well, we'll keep doing that. Most of clients then know, like, this is the direction we're heading, and then I don't let them down. Like, we go and we do that right, and that's just kind of the way that it works, and it's phenomenal. And, you know, we were talking earlier, Rhett, you asked me, like, what else I love about rt. I love that it works for myself. Like, I love that it works in my own life. It's one of those things where it's not just something I use for clients and I tell them to go do it, but I try to practice it myself as much as possible. And really, RT has carried me through a lot of difficult challenges in my own life.

So.

Love that as a therapist, that's just one of those things. Yeah.

Jason, I was really moved. You and I had a conversation in the airport. I don't know if you want to delve into this, but I was. You know, you're. You're such a. You come across as, like a. Like, you know, a great, awesome guy that you would never guess the struggles that you've been through this past season. But, you know, I think when it comes to violations of love and trust, I think you. You were kind of speaking to a pretty deep pain that you've been kind of working through this past. I don't know how long it's been, but I don't know if you'd like to share that with our group, but I'm sure it'd be really meaningful.

Yeah, well, you know, as long as it doesn't leave this podcast. Right? Like, you know, we'll just keep it.

It's only me, you, and Lance listening.

It's the smallest audience ever.

No. So my son, He's. He's now 10. When he was 8, he was diagnosed with a rare form of bone cancer, BCOR sarcoma. And so when he was diagnosed, I mean, everything just kind of, you know, fell apart a little bit, or everything just kind of stopped. I had to scale way back on my practice. We. We had to figure out, like, what was going on. We also have the unfortunate story of having very, very good friends of ours. They lost their son to a similar form of cancer, like a cousin. So we also had that in our backstory. In fact, that young person who died, he and his mother were my son's first visitors when my son was born. So they were the first ones to come and visit us when, when they were born. So we were, we're really close with this family. And then, you know, having to share that news, that information with my son that he also now has his cancer, I mean, that was just, that was, that was tough. Son was immediately thinking he's going to die and all the challenges that are there. But I'm to kind of make it a shorter story because I can go on forever on this. But like the four steps and Terry and Sharon just so, so supportive and using the four steps with me when I'm taking my son to get chemotherapy, even when I'm at home with my daughter and my wife is taking my son to get his first dose of chemo treatment and using my four steps there so I can show up and be present for my daughter who at the time was four and just trying not to rock her boat as much as possible. Having to carry my own anxieties as we're going through treatment, carrying my own anxieties as I'm meeting with clients who are sharing about things even now. My son currently is doing well. He had to have a major surgery which replaced most of his fibula with a titanium rod. And so he's been cancer free. Treatment was done in February of last year of 2024. So he's been cancer free for a while. But we don't know that he's going to be able to run ever again really. Probably not. And of course now every time there's a pain or something else that's going on in either one of our kids, it's like, like, well, you know, everything kind of just goes up a little bit and managing our anxieties with that. And then I have clients now who are losing family members to cancer or family members getting diagnosed with cancer. And so having to manage myself through those really the only the type of thing, the four steps and this, the stop turn, slow created for, for those types of moments to where I can still show up, be myself, show up the way that I want to for those clients and manage my own emotions, not just in the room when I'm with clients, but also afterwards. So like at the end of the day when I'm thinking through my, my caseload and setting that kind of aside so I can be with my family, and not be just an anxious mess that goes to my family or my wife and say, like, oh, my gosh, like, I've had these clients that are dealing with things that are just so similar, and now I'm struggling or I'm scared or anxious, but really being able to go through my four steps, recognize where I'm at, that I'm strong enough to show up for my family and for myself the way that I want to, and we'll make whatever decisions we need to when the time comes.

Yeah. Terry makes a big deal about, like, being good stewards of our pain, which we realized with an episode with Michael Pachuco. He stole from somebody else. Imagine that. But I think, you know, I really appreciate, you know, you're sharing or sharing your story. I'm curious, you know, for a therapist that is working in the room, you know, with somebody that would be in a situation like your own where you don't know the future, what would you want to say to therapists, you know, when. If they're doing, you know, pain and peace cycle work? Because I feel like sometimes that truth in the midst of deep pain, where you don't know the future and you've had bad things that have happened, what would you want to say to therapists to, like, you know, you talk about using your four steps. What were those truths in those new actions that really helped in those dark nights?

Yeah. You know, I think the biggest thing was just for. For me, my truth is that I am. I am strong enough to show up for. For this moment.

Right?

Like, I'm strong enough just to show up and be here for this moment. I clearly don't have control of everything that's going on, but I'm strong enough to show up and make a phone call when I need to. I'm strong enough to show up and talk to doctors when I need to. Specifically when I'm with clients. Like, I'm strong enough to show up and be present with this client. Like, that's what I want to do so that I'm strong enough to take a deep breath, to focus back in and be present. And it really is. I mean, it really, really is. Practicing those four steps, somebody says something and I start feeling all kind of fluttered, or I listen into a client. I'm saying, this is not a big deal. Like, I don't know what. Like, I got big problems. What you're talking about. This is pretty simple. Even that is like, okay, use my four steps here. Strong enough to show up and just be with this person that's what I want to do. And then being there. So taking that quick breath and listening to the client ask another question and point to the pain cycle and let's do it. I think that's. Again, that's another one of the. I just I o r t a lot in help helping me through that again, because it is so structured, because it is so organized, that even during my own challenges, personal challenges, family challenges, I was able to go back to my clients and say, I know what we're doing. Like, I'm not getting lost. I know where we're at. Because RT is just. It's so structured. It's. So when we really break things down, you know, there's. You're responding one of four ways. You know, the shame, blame, control, escape, and you got one of one of two violations. It's love or trust. And we can. We can move forward from there. So I think, man, just remembering that I'm strong enough to trust myself to show up.

It's a good truth.

And to be present, it's really. It's carried me through a lot of hard situations, hard conversations, hard conversations with my son, hard conversations with my daughter.

Yeah.

And just being as present as I can in the moment.

It's heavy stuff. Yeah. I remember walking. You shared. You shared that a little bit with me. We were walking from a classroom back to the main sanctuary. At the summit, we were walking, and you had shared some of that story, because I think it was about the year anniversary of your son's surgery, and I'd only really met you that one time, but I had experienced you as just very, like, open and vulnerable and at peace. Like, I could sense that sense of peace, too, as someone who's doing the work, you know, which is a really profound thing about rt and as Terry and Sharon encourages to continue to always do the work. And I guess I'm wondering too, in your position now in, like, training other therapists, is there. This is probably a selfish question, because I'm curious myself, but do you ever get any pushback in the model with new people that you're training? Or there are points of. Points of, like, where people get stuck when you're trying to instill a new model to them, that it's not clicking for people. I know for me, I'm the type. I was always looking for a long time this shiny new object. And I realized I've got to keep coming back to the four steps over and over and over again. And that's the thing, you know? But when I was new and young to it. You're always looking to add more tools and more certifications and more stuff. And I'm just wondering, as you bring your own experience into training new therapists, if you. If anything, have you noticed, you know, in handing this model off to people?

Yeah, I think that's the. I think that's kind of what it is. Right. Like, at least in my experience, it's always been people wanting to do more or feeling like they need to do more or needing to know more and are. Are. I like to kind of break it down in terms of saying, like, there's people. There's a lot of therapists out there who know RT and will use some restoration therapy. But I'm a restoration therapist. Like, that's what I do. That's what I go to, and that's kind of where I hang my hat. And sure, there's other techniques or things that I'll bring in, but I am, in my heart, in my core, I'm an RT therapist. There's people who like RT that want to be able to do it, but are also kind of searching for, like, oh, yeah, but I've heard so much about this other stuff or this other thing, and we'll get stuck on. On like, well, it can't just be one model. Like, we got to be integrative. We gotta have all of these other things that we do and know. And while I think, like, yeah, there's a lot of really good stuff out there and. But in my experience, like rt, I've yet to bump into a client where I'm thinking, this is not gonna work for you. We might need to tweak some things or we might need to work at one aspect of restoration therapy a little bit more than others. But I haven't bumped into a client where I'm just like, this doesn't work for you. I think helping therapists know and kind of experience some of that themselves is really helpful. The most resistance I get is when. When their therapists are quick to want to jump to the other thing because of their own anxiety sometimes and feeling like they don't know enough or they're not good enough or that kind of thing.

That may be one or two, Lance, for you. I mean, you run a restoration therapy clinic, right?

But it's a center. Center.

Sorry, is there a moment where you went from. Yeah, restoration therapy is kind of what I practice, but I integrated other models to where. No, I'm a restoration therapist.

Yeah, I mean, I was for. I mean, I got. It's kind Of a. I was trained in the model from the get go, but there was this wrestling similar what Jason's talking about where I was working with an eft. I actually worked with a therapist that was very person centered initially when I was training. And then I worked with another therapist that was very eft. I mean she was amazing therapist, but I, I don't know, my heart just always found its way back to restoration therapy. And there was this really big moment when I was with one of my, my co director here, Robin Reinke, and her and I were chatting, you know, like, well, you know, do we just want to just kind of plant our flag here and say, is restoration therapy what we do? And I think we made that choice together. And that's when we started at the center and kind of slowly built it out from there. Just because we were all about restoration therapy as kind of, you know, the hideaway experience was really very quintessential in that shift for us where we're saying, yeah, this is where we land our flag because this is, this is where we always go to is restoration therapy. You know, we, we. Everything that we use outside the model is only in support of the model that we do.

So.

Yeah, how about.

No, I was thinking, I mean, probably since because you know, as people, I've said I've left before Terry got to Fuller. And so it was Jim Furrow, who's big eft, like big guy in the country with eft.

And then, you know that guy.

Yeah, he's awesome. I love Jim. And then I think it wasn't until 2010 I started going to the Hideaway and then training with Terry and it was really up until about three years ago, which I consider myself an RT therapist. But I also kind of didn't want to like be all in, meaning I want to leave room to add some other stuff if needed. And then about three years ago, a little less. When a lot of people in the community and Terry and Sharon just walked me through some of my own difficult personal times. I was like, this is it. This is the community. It's. It's be actually beyond the model. It was the people who make up the model that I'm like, I don't really, I don't really want to be anywhere else. And I've slowly shifted my language and even my online like just identification to just like restoration therapists. And I guess I bring up this conversation because there are people listening who are probably all over this spectrum. And I don't know, like if, if we want to make a Case, like why it's important maybe to be all in or does it matter if you're all in? I don't know. I just. I guess people are listening and, and there's pros, there's, you know, we can get lost when we're kind of dabbling in a lot of other areas. I think.

Yeah.

I think for, for me, again, it goes back again to like, I don't feel the pressure to make anybody have to see it or to understand it. I think that goes. There's those times when I do feel that I think that's my own pain because I feel anxious and worried that I'm not good enough and they're not seeing it and it makes me feel less. I really look at it and say, like, this is a great theory. I love it. I love the self regulation part. Like, I like the responsibility and the empowerment part. I think it answers a whole lot of questions. It really does. It really is the way that I view the world in terms of people responding out of pain and being able to manage their pain, learn how to manage their pain, train themselves to manage their pain responses. That really brings hope into the world. There's a person who's able to figure out how to manage their own emotions, their own regulation, to be able to regulate themselves. A person who's able to do that and really understands that they can do that. That is a. That is a healthy, whole, hopeful individual totally, that just has that kind of empowerment. I think therapists who, like, I don't want to sell it any. Yeah. Or anything. I want them to see how good it can be and then to go practice it and witness it themselves. And I think when I'm able to live in that space, I can hold things really open handed and say, like, hey, there's this great thing. I would love for you to be a part of it. Come check it out. If it's not for you, like, great. If you're a great eft therapist, go do that, man. Because people need, need some help with that. Like, go kick butt at it. But I got a model here that I love, that I think is phenomenal and answers a lot of questions. A lot of people.

Yeah.

No matter what it is.

Totally. Yeah. You know, and I'm kind of aware of the time here and I know there's probably people that are. I like to imagine how people listen to this. Maybe you're on a run right now, maybe you're in your car and you're stuck in traffic, or maybe you're just finished. That really tough session. Like, ugh, maybe. Maybe the RT dialogue will give me something, you know, I'm curious around, like going to the interventions. Right? Jason, you know, we got you here today. Maybe you could bring us into what are the intervention. Like, maybe name like something that if someone's listening here today and they're dealing with a something, you know, what, what intervention would you want to kind of throw out? Like something practical today that you find yourself, you know, maybe going back to the love and trust you're talking about earlier or whatever? What. What are some. That you're using, even that someone could use today?

Yeah, I think like one that I do semi pretty regularly that I think this is not any. This is not anything groundbreaking or earth shaking. But I think when you working with a client and specifically clients that I don't know about you, but I'm bumping into a lot of clients that are feeling not good enough. I think that's a pretty regular type of pain that people are feeling in their professional lives as a parent or student and just feeling not good enough. And the more I work with it, the more, More I think, like, this isn't just a. This is. This is really not just a violation of identity or love, but it's like a night. It's a. It really is a safety thing too, because what they're saying is, I don't trust myself. I can't trust myself in these situations or in these scenarios. I don't trust that I have anything good to offer. So one of those interventions that I, that I use that I think has been really simple is especially for clients that I've been working with for a little while, is I'll write down a little bit of their story. Like, married for 15 years, graduated from high school, graduated from college, has two kids, three kids. Whatever it is, you know, you just start writing down all the things that you know about this client. And I'm writing it on a whiteboard, like, you know, just a small little whiteboard. And I'm just jotting it down like this. And then I turn it around and I show them like the list of all the things. And it really takes me like a minute to write it all down. And I'll show the list to them and I'll say, this person feels like they're not good enough. What do you think? And they'll look at it and they'll say, more often than not, they look at it and say, like, well, I say that person's doing a pretty phenomenal job.

So for those of you that are listening. Jason just showed us this, like, probably 8 by 11 whiteboard thing that he, that he'll, that he has in his hands. And, and you're basically, you would write out, you know, the, like, would it be, like, the highlight point that they're making?

Yeah, especially, like, when they're thinking about not, not good enough. And I know that's part of their pain cycle. And I. Yeah. And I know their history in the background, just not even a lot. Like, just a little bit. And I know that they've made their way through college. Maybe they've started a business. Maybe they've gotten promoted. Maybe they did something really hard. Maybe they, they did something really hard in terms of, like, bringing up their child. Maybe it's even, even if it's just like, they haven't quit yet. Yeah, they're, maybe their marriage is really tough. They're going through something really difficult, but they're still, they haven't quit. So I would write, like, persevering through divorce or persevering in, in my crummy job. And I'd say, like, is this, is it true that this person's not good enough? Like, I will show the board to them and I'll say, is, is it true that this person's not good enough? And I have yet seen the client to look at it and say, oh, yeah, they're not good enough. No, they always look at it and they like, no, that person is good enough. And then it dings on them a little bit later and like, oh, that's me. Like, that's, that's who I am. And I'll just look at them and I'll kind of lean in and I'll try to pull Terry comes into my head a little bit. And I look at them and I say, what makes you so special that you're the only one who gets to wear that crown do. Or not. Because. And they're just like, I don't know. It's, I, I, I shouldn't be the.

Only one.

That it just gets them out of a place where they start recognizing a little bit that they're good enough to be there, good enough to show up that they've made it through hard stuff and they can do it again. So it's a really quick one. It's an easy one. I've used it. Like, some of the other interventions are the three main ones that you brought up earlier, Lance. They take up more time. That one quick one that you can do it in three minutes. And sometimes if I Want. If we had a session and I really. We've been working on it, but I really want to know. Nail the point. Bring it home. I'll pull that one out real quick at the end or to kind of get things rolling at the beginning. I'll do it then, too.

I like that. I like to like anything that we can do to like, get the thoughts out of our head and for people to see it, visualize. To see it, like, on a board or paper or. It's so. It's so powerful. And it reminds me how important it is to have, like, little simple tools around your office. And if you don't have them, just to be creative and grab whatever you can use to do that. I like your Terry impression there, too.

We've all got one, right? But, yeah, it's great. And it's amazing how often his voice just pops into my head when I'm working with clients.

Yeah, for sure.

Another quick one, I think, with couples. Just a quick intervention with couples, I think, is that. That I really love is. I just. I kind of am just calling it, like, I'm keeping it real. Like, when a couple is really struggling and they're really kind of going through the pain. And I totally got this one from Terry, too. But I'll just look at the couple and I'll say there are potentially two outcomes that we keep working in our pain cycle. And this one's really easy, but it is an intervention. It's like there's two outcomes if we keep doing. Doing what we're doing. One is you're going to live in a really hard, challenging marriage. Or two, this is going to. Your relationship is going to dissolve. Which one do you want? Because if we stay here, that's what's going to happen. Couples.

Jason's keeping it real.

Well, yeah. I mean, couples that are really stuck. And I think it takes a little bit of courage to go ahead and say that, but, like, that's what's going to happen. And when you say it really seriously, like, this is where you're at, and this is where you're going to stay. Couples who hear that, they're like, I don't want to stay there. Like, that's not what I want to do. So it frees them up to start working on practicing. Sometimes. Sometimes it's just like practicing the peace cycle, practicing those four steps. You're like, this is where we're at, and you've got a choice to make. Your relationship's either going to stay really tough, and you're going to be really dissatisfied in it or it's going to dissolve if we keep doing this. Of course, the third option is we practice what it is that we are talking about in terms of our four steps. Which one do you want?

Come on.

Most couples are not gonna say, like, oh, keep me in the pain. And most couples are showing up and they're like, well, I want to fix this, or at least I want to, even if this is our last effort. Like, I want to do the best that I can because, you know, honestly, I'll tell them this, too. Like, divorce is more expensive than therapy, if you. If you look at it. And so really kind of getting them to move out of that pain cycle mindset and saying, like, okay, I really need to give this a shot. I've had couples come back to me, like, just on the edge of divorce. Come back to me a week later and say, like, everything is different. Everything is different. And that's the moment. You know, those are the moments that really kind of get clients jostle them enough to get them to move. So I think those are two interventions that I've been using a lot lately that have been simple and quick to move.

I'll probably use them today. So that's the good thing about talking to you this morning is, number one. Number one, it's your choice. I can show you what you're doing. It's your decision to decide if you want to do something different. I'll show you the way. And then two, I love those interventions that for someone who runs high with a lot of my own anxieties and stuff, to not have to fix everything.

And.

I love it, man. Jason, if people want to connect with you, what do you recommend is the easiest way to do that? To go to your website or anything in particular?

Yeah, people can go to my website, www.wellspace. everybody has www.com. or they can email me at jasonellspacepdx.com yeah. Love to connect with people. Love to talk RT, love hanging out with all of you and all the other really cool RT therapists out there and all the RT therapists that you've got on the podcast. This is awesome. So this is really fun.

Yeah. And you have a consultation group and you have a level one training coming up. Do you want to say those things coming up?

Yeah. So there's a level one training that's happening in Portland that is going to be January 9th and 10th. I think I should know that in 2026. And then we have a consultation group that meets the second Thursday of every month at 12pm we meet online virtually and just RT therapists in the Pacific Northwest or really anywhere but Pacific Northwest is our goal. And I am working to try to get RT more into the Washington, Seattle area. So if anybody listening to this podcast, you have connections, people who might be interested in trainings or anything else would love to connect and talk to those people as well.

Especially at Gonzaga University. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes. And after Jason, you commented on the substack about your consultation group, I went ahead. If people are on the sub stack at the top of the page, there's a page now for consult groups and Jason's is on there as well as Corey's as well as the one that I've kind of been doing with Dallas, Texas people. And then of course, Steven Prezes. So if you are listening and you also have a consultation group, let me know. And Jason's not only website link, but his email address is on that consult group. And we'll put all the notes and links in the show. Notes. And Jason, we'll have you on again when you're not dealing with a dad who's slightly depressed from his daughter leaving soon and a guy who's on cloud nine from CS Lee Lewis. We'll have you back on. Be fun.

Yeah. This is great, guys. I really appreciate you. I really appreciate what you're doing. This is awesome. So thanks so much for having me.

Yeah. See you guys later.

I'm in. Cheers.

Cheers.