Season 1 | Episode 19 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Dr. Ulrica "Tasha" Kassar

Lance, good morning. How you doing?

Hey, Rhett, man, it's a good day. It's a really good day, man. It's good to see you, brother.

Good to see you. Tell people before we start and introduce our guests why we started this podcast back in January and just kind of our hopes for it.

Yeah. You know, we have been really moved by our community and what the Restoration Therapy community provides. I think one of the things that really touched, I feel like you and I was when we started doing the turning from anxiety trainings. And I think we recognized, like, wow, we are so much better when we interact with one another and we talk through concepts and things like that. So we decided, hey. Or you decided, hey, Lance, would you like to do a podcast and talk about, you know, RT concepts? Would you like to kind of grow people deeper when it comes to, like, the interactive experiential elements in the room? So that's kind of the big heart is just to be a beacon to the community and, you know, nothing like choosing, you know, two goofballs to that. That love Jesus and therapy, you know, to do it. But, yeah, that's kind of the flow.

Yeah. And I think the reason I was really interested in this too is because outside of the model and the practice, like, personally, like personally, my life has been changed by the people in the community and like Terry and Sharon walking me through some hard times in my own personal life, you know, so I see the. I guess the integrity of the model lived out in real time with people, and that's important.

So that's true for Terry and Sharon as well. I would just say, like our founders of the model, like the ones that brought it to us, have met all of us in deep, deep, dark places in our lives and have really helped us to utilize Restoration Therapy and our own restoration. So. Yeah.

Well, I'm excited this morning. The person I'm going to introduce in a second, I received her name from a former student of hers, or I guess a supervisee of hers in the therapy were therapy world. Therapy world. And I got an email one day from this young woman, Bisola. I always. I'm always trying to conscious I pronounce her name right, Bisola. She emailed me and said, hey, you have to meet Dr. Kassar. Like, she's so amazing. She changed my life and she introduced me to RT and you just have to meet her. So I emailed, I nailed B. Sola back and talk to her and actually invite her on the podcast. And then B. Sola sent her an email and so this is what brought us to today.

So, B. Sala was awesome. You guys got to listen to that episode.

Yeah, she's great. She had so much energy. I was so excited for the future of therapy after her being on there. So welcome to the podcast. Dr. Tasha Kassara, we're so glad to have you.

Hello, hello. Hello. I'm excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me, and thank you.

Yeah.

For sure. This is how that works. If you're listening and you know somebody that has impacted your life using rt, definitely let us know. I. You know, the place we like to start a lot of times is just share with us your, like, journey to rt. Like, I. I know from our exchanges behind the scenes, kind of how you got there. I know a little bit about. But tell us how you were exposed to it and what was it about RT that maybe just clicked with you that you're like, this is a model that works?

Yes.

So I. My background is in criminal justice, so I was in my PhD program. I was working in the prison, doing a substance abuse counseling. And we had. It's called Meet the Masters. And so each quarter they would bring the founders of the models. And so we got to meet Dr. Hargrave, and he was entered. He did restoration therapy. At the time, I was practicing CBT because that's the foundation of the models that we do in the criminal justice system. And so I was using cbt, but I wasn't seeing a lot of change with the women that I was working with with cbt. I was also using some reality therapy with that model. But the day he presented restoration therapy, and so I am an LPC. I have my PhD. Imagine family therapy. So the day he presented restoration therapy from that system model, like, it was like, fireworks started going off in my brain, and I started to, like, just putting things together, not only for my clients, but for myself. And I think made the difference. As he was talking, like, I'm taking notes, and I'm, like, working through my own pain cycle as he's up there explaining it. And I was probably that annoying student because I kept, like, raising my hand and was like, so, okay, so the primary emotion would you say? And then can you tell me a little bit more about the. And I just fell in love. And you said a word. And I never put it together until right now, but it was the integrity of the model. It was just something that, like, grounded me and, like, anchored me to it just made sense. And so that was how I was introduced to restoration therapy. And so from then, I Wanted to get trained in restoration therapy. So I did do the training, and I showed up the same way in the training. I was that person. I'll volunteer. I volunteer for that. And during that time, I was really going through a hard time just dealing with some inadequacy. So I'm in this PhD program, not really believing that I should be there, struggling with. With it, but I didn't have the language for it.

Right.

So I was the striving, the behavior.

So I was.

Because that's what I knew to do. It was the striving, but I just couldn't get over it.

Sounds like you were describing a situation where you were experiencing.

I apologize.

Ah, even Siri has things to say. Back off, Alexa.

And so I volunteered. And so Terry walked me through it. And when I was able to pinpoint the primary emotion as an adequacy, it was life changing. Like to give that thing that I was feeling the voice, and then to be able to then tie it to all of these behaviors, it was just an eye opener. And then being able to take that and then take it back to the jail. These women that I was working with who had years of substance abuse and addiction, because I was walking it through myself, being able to walk them through it, not only was I able to use restoration therapy, but then what I discovered is I was able to create a framework to work with these women that allowed me to, like a lens that I was able to use restoration therapy through to get them to begin to understand their pain cycle and their. Their pain language.

Breaking them through their emotional prisons, huh?

Yes.

Yes. Dang. Dr. Tasha, so good. What was your. Tell us again, for all of us, what your PhD was in marriage and family therapy or. Or what your. Excuse me, Your dissertation topic that you chose?

My dissertation topic was I did adult children of addicts. So I. I've interviewed couples with, um, one child who was an adult child of an addict to see what their pain cycle looked like and how it impacted the relationship. Yeah. And so I was able to see how addiction impacts the pain cycle.

Wow. What. What were the big things that you noticed as you were looking at the different pain cycles of people of addiction?

So it turned out that all of the. The. In the couples, it just so happened that the children, the adult children were of the addicts were males. And so these are all African American couples. And what I saw is that there was a pattern of. In the primary emotion. The.

The.

Not enough like you. Like there was just this pattern throughout all of the clients. And then there Was that attachment, like this avoidant attachment type that created for them and how it showed up in the marriage was they were distant, right. So there was the behavior or so it was either or they were really distant or they were preoccupied. And so that's how we, we saw it show up in the pain cycle. And so it was really. So the goal was I just wanted to see how it would show up in the pain cycle. But I was also able to then go in and then teach them right. With the, with the peace cycle and anchor them in their truth and then also helping their partner recognize their pain cycles. And so I was able to do far beyond what my dissertation set out to do in the process with restoration therapy because I was able to just give them tools of just those four steps. I think I did six sessions with them. So with those four steps we were able to get each partner to pain and peace. And then they had these tools to be able to understand, oh, this is what's being triggered. This is how I self regulate and this is how we can get back together.

Dang. Dr. Tasha doesn't mess around. She's getting people for all of our therapists that are listening, that are like, they're just finishing their clients pain cycles in, you know, six to eight sessions. I love that you're. You're getting them all the way through the model. That's awesome.

Did you ever follow up with Terry and share your dissertation with them or mention that the work that you were doing?

I did.

I. So I did during my dissertation, I did reach out a couple of times and he helped me through a couple of things I was kind of stuck on, but I never did after I finished.

Oh, I'm sure you. I'm just thinking he'd love to hear the, the work that you've been doing. I love that you met him at Meet the Master. Meet the Master, the Meet the Masters day or something.

That's awesome.

He. So you, you did your level one training with him, correct?

Correct, yes.

And then was that, was that in Texas?

It was actually during COVID So we did it online.

Did online. Okay. What a, what a different time for all of us. Yeah, that man. It's. I was just thinking, you know, I, I complain about in my own therapy practice trying client clients who are willing to come into practice and come to therapy, trying to get them through their four steps and. Sounds like you took it right into some very difficult situations and found good success with the model there. Do you still do work in the prison system?

I don't at the end of. And that's, that's how I started my private practice. So I live in 2019. I end up getting sick. And so I was like, for a year I was out sick, I couldn't work. And I knew I was supposed to go away before then, but I hope I heard God say it's time to leave. And that is when I birthed chosen coaching and counseling, which is by my organization and transition. And I think what I wanted is I wanted to work with people who wanted to change because I had worked in the criminal justice system for so long. And, and I think, and that's something that I love working with interns about, just helping them understand that it's okay to pivot. Right. And so the 10 years that I did that I needed the skills. Skills. Yeah, to motivate people to want the changes and, and all the things that I learned. But then there came a point where I'm like, I need people who are motivated to, who, who are already motivated. Like I'm in that place in my life. And so I think that that's where chosen took off. And so I was having people who were seeking out therapy and not being court ordered to therapy and me not having to convince them why therapy would be good. So that was the.

Such a great world.

I, you know, you describe and I, and we'll put links to your website. I really, I really like. You talk about that middle moment and you're like, that's the language you use and about transition. And I'm, I guess I'm just curious. I mean, being in the middle moment is so painful when you're in that kind of what some people call a stage of like disorientation. How did you, how did you navigate that? You know, maybe not. I mean, I'm curious how you use maybe RT to help you navigate it, but also just curious how you discern this was the path and this was the direction for you to go.

So I think. And this is our hindsight. When I was in the middle moment, I, I did not know at all.

It felt like the end moment. Right?

Yes. So, yeah. So middle moments is. It is, it's just though, it's that instead of those uncertain moments that we're frustrated, we feel stuck. The, the coping behaviors that we once used to, to move us through, they. They no longer work. There's the exhaustion and the fatigue. And so how I used RT in that middle moment. So I like to say that my clients usually find me when they're in a middle moment that's where they usually find me. And so it's almost we work backwards because I do work with predominantly high functioning, high performing, high achieving African American women. They are doing a lot of coping and so they're usually exhausted. And so when they find me, what we're talking about and for myself, what I realized is I'm able to identify those coaches coping behaviors because I can intellectualize really well. I can justify, I can, you know, reason, I can do all of those things. But I was having, like I said, like I was having a really hard time identifying the emotion of it. And so how I use restoration therapy. So I developed a framework I call just the chosen a framework and it's the awareness. And so it's having to get radically honest that you're in the middle moment.

Right.

And what am I pretending not to know? And it's yeah, that I'm stuck and what I'm doing is no longer working. And so what am I doing? Well, I'm striving, I am justifying things. I am, you know, for the women in jail it was like, yeah, I'm numbing with these addictive behaviors. You know, it's whatever those behaviors are. And so it's be getting radically honest with yourself. And so we, we start with the behaviors in the restoration therapy. And then there's that acceptance. That's the, the next a. And that's what can I sit with? Like what are these emotions? What is the truth that I can sit with without shame? And so it's also teaching, right? Because there is this hyperf performance being able to teach the grace and the non judgment because I saw a lot, myself included. There was a struggle with being able to say that I felt inadequate because my. I was really confident because I did a lot of things well. And so being able to say I felt inadequate while I also felt confident, there was an incongruence. And so it was really. So to wrap my mind around that there was a truth there. It felt shameful for me to say that. And so helping them, that radical acceptance of being able to say the this and that. Right. Understanding there's the confidence behind the high performing, high functioning of these coping behavior that you've learned as a trauma response, but also understanding what's underneath it and not judging it. Right. And sitting in it with grace. And then we also honor it because now we're going to understand. Now we go to the trauma. Let's understand what was the benefit? How did it benefit you? And so okay, I'm gonna take. I forgot the initial question, how we got here.

But you're talking about middle moments.

Yeah, moments. But I think you're, you're kind of helping us to even step into your chosen model as well. So.

Yeah, I, I love what you said that your, your clients find you in their middle moments. Like, that's so impactful that. Yeah, I mean, often people, when they step into someone's office for help, are in a transition in that middle moment and, and don't know what to do. And I, you know, one of the things I love about your work, you know, is that you have this therapy practice. We have this coaching practice too. And I love the developed model. That's something that, you know, RT is working on, kind of a coaching model as well, you know, and so when I, when I look at the work you do, I love, I don't know, I just, I love the spaces and the way you can use RT in your chosen model to impact people's life. It sounds like too, which I love about RT doing the work. It put you into direct contact with your own pain, this inadequacy, like this daggone it. Shame. And Terry always says we have to be doing our own work also. Right. And I just, as you were sharing, it sounded like, man, you've done a lot of your own work stepping into this space and working with this chosen model that you've built.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And what I can see, just like in this five years since I've started chosen, like, I could just kind of see the pieces being put together. And like I talked about, like, I see a lot of my clients that I've been working with. I see them on the, the other side, like what we would call, like activation phase, where they're stepping into their legacy in their leadership roles. I work with a lot of, you know, a lot of leaders, and so they are just as impactful. They are, you know, leaders in their own rights and they are sowing seeds. And so because they're anchored in their truths, because of the restoration therapy and being able to heal from that, I'm just able. I've lately, I've been able to kind of just see how the pieces have come together where I started and just struggling with just, just this constant striving. Like, I felt like I was on this hamster wheel. And so, yeah, I could do the things and finish the things, but it was just never enough. And it was just on to the next thing and over functioning and just, you know, seeking safety and not feeling powerless. That was my, my primary motion Is that like, feeling powerless and so trying to control all of the things and how that was just showing up in all of the areas of my life. And then the more anchored I get in the truth, the more then I'm able to clarify the framework for my clients, and then the more that I can clarify it for my clients and I implement it, then the more that I see them begin to anchor themselves in their own truth as well.

Dr. Tasha, I'm curious around as you're working with these clients. You know, I find, you know, our executives that come in the room that are, you know, are high performers that are like, you know, hitting on all levels. They strive so well, like, it works for them so well. But, you know, when they hit that middle point that you're talking about, like, that's where kind of, you know, the, you know, stuff hits the fan. And, you know, I'm curious around, like, as you're working, like, to work this sense of powerlessness or you're working the sense of inadequacy, what are some of the, like, when you're helping them to move into the truth part of the therapy moment, which I find my. My performers, they're so exhausting because they try, and sometimes it feels like even getting to their truth is like a performance in a way. How. What have you noticed as you're working with performers to help them, you know, to break free? You know, I love your acronym of chosen, by the way. I think it's just perfect. But yeah, yeah, tell us around more about that.

So I think my personality helps with that. And so I speak to that in consultation. I really tell, and I think it's because it's something that I've had mentors have to do for me, and that's just be radically honest and call me out on my stuff. And so in. In consultation, you know, I say, like, we can't outperform this. And so I'm going to lovingly call it out, like, here and now. And so I think that that is something that I learned early on, that I had a knack for a gift for the here and now, the in the moment, being able to say, oh, there it is. We're in the pain. Like, where do you feel that? In your body?

Yeah.

What's coming up for you in this moment and allowing them to name and feel the pain in the moment. And I think having those experiences with them creates this safety so that they don't feel the need to perform in the session. But this takes a while. And I was just talking to a client the other day who. Who is on the other side of it. And she was like, do you remember, like, the first three weeks I came in, and you were just kind of looking at me like, okay, are you done performing? Like, are we gonna get to work?

Here we go. It's gonna take a while to break this one.

Is it. Is it difficult? I mean, I can speak for myself, and I'm a high. I kind of fall into that performance. I think Lance does. Dr. Kasara. You do. Do you ever. Do you guys. Do you two ever struggle with noticing your tendency to. As a therapist, want to try to get people to move faster? Like, you feel like, I'm not performing, I'm not doing my job. If they're not getting into their truth or doing their things, I'm just. Yeah, I'm noticing. I'm wondering. I'm wondering how that shows up in the room for either one of you when you. When that performance piece starts to take over. As a therapist.

I mean, for me, I always think about one of my. One of my colleagues. She struggles with this too. It's like, man, these people are paying good money for this right now, man. I gotta, you know, I gotta do the. Do the song and dance and make them happy, you know? So I, I. It does come up for me a lot, like, thinking about that. That financial investment and. And all of that. And, you know, if it doesn't go the way I want it to, or if they're, you know, I do. Yeah, I'll get down. Mr. Failure inside of Lance comes up really loud. Then I have to. Then I have to lean into my. My truth of. I'm still called. I'm still called. What about you, Dr. Tasha?

Yes, her name is Chaotic Kathy. Because I create chaos in the room.

Hell.

And so I. I feel it when I am in there performing, and I'm like, what is happening? We've been here too long. It feels chaotic. And I can tell, like, my clients are starting to perform. Like, they feel like this. I can feel the intensity. And when I'm done with the session, I'm like, God, that felt chaotic. Okay. Yep, that's what's happening. Like, I. I'm doing way too much in this situation. Situation.

Chaotic Kathy. I like that.

Yes.

It's got a name.

Yes.

Yeah, it sounds like one of the things that you really lean into is helping clients, like, feel it in their body. Like, be present in the moment in the room as they're feeling their pain. Are there any specific, like, interventions that you've kind of leaned to. Leaned into that have helped people sit. Sit in their pain a little bit to sit in that moment. Anything that you. You've been practicing or you've used for a while that you found is really helpful.

Yes. So I really like. So re. Parenting is something that I really use in those moments. And so I kind of just tidy a lot of times. It's just just simple mindfulness and breathing. Right. And what I've noticed is that a lot of my clients just don't read like they are not taking intentional breaths. And so. Yeah, so just the basic. Is that. And so start there. But what then what I like to do is in those here and now moments is. Is I like to use reparenting in those moments. And so like asking like, how old is that emotion? Like, if you could. If you could age that emotion, how old would you say you are right now? How old does that feel? You know, and just starting to build the language for them. Like, oh, yeah, that feels like 10. Like 10 year old. Can you tell me a little bit about that? 10 year old so that then I can start hearing the narrative about what's happening and start building the ground for the reparenting. And it just depends on how safe they feel. And that's where my performance comes in. Because sometimes I can move too fast. I'm like, oh, I got him. I right, and I'll move it. And I'm like, okay, I move way too fast on that one. But. But I like to use that. So those are some. Some techniques that I Or interventions that I like to use during those times.

That's such a great way. I like that. Just asking. It's kind of. It's like an IFS type language too. Like where you just kind of say, you know, how. How old does that part of you think you are, that emotion think you are? And I think that's like a really beautiful way just to almost like a fast. It's a shortcut in there. Instead of having to like decorate it all out, you can kind of. It's kind of a nice backdoor way into accessing pain to really get into peace cycle work. That's awesome.

Yeah. And you hit on, I mean, a core piece obviously of restoration therapy, the love and trust, that safety piece, you know, and the importance of making sure a client feels safe in the room, emotionally safe for us to do some of the work. And I was wondering for you and your experience of like all those. You said 10 years in the prison system, correct?

Yes, yes.

It's A long time. And some of that, I mean, a lot of that is mandated work with a certain amount of sessions you can do. And then your transition into private practice. I'm wondering how that safety piece maybe was different, if it was at all between the type of work that you were doing or was it the same, or what you noticed in terms of maybe RT and the. Yeah, this whole safety between that type of work and the work you're doing currently.

You know what I would say, I think it was established in the prison system, I think, working with clients. So I was a probation officer before I actually worked in the addiction, substance abuse. And so I did a lot of high risk caseloads. And so I had to get people to trust me because my goal is like, I don't ever want to send anyone to prison. I really want to see you do well. And so I just really learned through that to be really transparent and authentic. I had to, even for myself, right. And these were a lot of middle moments for me. And so teaching that, like, middle moments are like, you can have several middle moments happening at one time, right. And so I like to say that middle moments, there are opportunities for transformation. So they got, they. They help us transition into transformation. They give us our next set of tools that we need for the journey. And so even working on those high risk caseloads, getting these young men, these 17, 18, 19 year olds to trust me, they needed to feel safe. And so I had to learn real fast, right? It was my safety as well, physical safety, safety. So I had to learn really fast how to navigate those spaces and create this emotional safety. And a lot of feedback that I would get a lot of times from the judges is that like your probationist trust you. Like, they really trust you. They really trust you. And then when I went into the prison and started working the substance abuse programs, I would hear a lot like, the women really trust you. And when I started to work the program, when I was the main facilitator over that program, my women would get out in the rate of recidivism on those people that I graduated, it decreased. And I believe it was because their ability to feel safe, and so they got a lot of the information that they needed. We were able to do a lot of the trauma work. And so they walked out with a lot of tools because we were able to establish safety for them, and so they were able to walk out with those things.

So. Great. Yeah, like, literally, like your middle. You're. You're doing middle moments of people, like, they're your middle moments of helping them has taken them from a place of bondage to a place of freedom. So beautiful.

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, go ahead.

I was. You finished up that thought.

No, I was just thinking, like, and I think that like the mirror moment as well, I could see, like, that's the same thing like God has done for my life. Like, it's that bond.

Oh, come on.

Yeah. And I just. I feel the freedom, right? Like, and so the free or I get, the more I trust the freedom, the more that I trust the relationship, the more that I am able to operate in the gift. It's kind of. That's what I'm being able to.

Answer the question that I was going to ask, which is if I were to ask people, what was it about you that made you feel safe? Safe? It. You. You. You embodied a sense of freedom, like a. A lived out experience that people could feel that felt free, that felt changed, that felt transformed. And it sounds like invited them into that place of safety. Not by the work of your own. It sounds like by the work of God in your life.

Yes, absolutely. Yep. Absolutely.

I. I just love. You know, I was so touched by Bisola and just her high regard for you and just the way that you've kind of come alongside her. I'm just curious, you know, I hear even with these people you got to work with in, well, in. In the prison. Tell me what it is like when you're approaching people and you're working with people to whether it's your associates. I don't know what they do. They call them interns. What do you all call them?

LPCI Interns or LMFT Associates. Yeah.

Yeah. Tell me like Dr. Tasha, when you're working with these people, they have such high regard for you and just really, just great esteem. What is it when you're working with people? What is your heart and what is it that you're trying? Like, what is your. I just want to kind of get into this magical person that understands how to take a middle moment and turn it into like, like a comeback, like, or breakthrough moment. Yeah.

I think what makes the difference? And just a little back history on chosen when I first started, Chosen every little thing, like, you should go like you should name it. Like your name. That's what everybody does. You should name your business after you. But God was like, no, it needs to be chosen. And what happened is my part of my story is I never felt chosen. And so growing up, I'm From West Texas. Love of Texas. But I grew up in a small town, Slayton, Texas. So I was usually the only black girl in all the classrooms. And so part of my narrative is that I always had to be better than. And so, you know, I was always the last one picked, always had to be smarter than. And then there was just a part of me that never felt chosen. And so God gave me the name chosen, and it was like, yeah, because you are set apart. And so the women that I work with, like, I just see it when they come in. I see this pain. And so they. They deal with the abandonment, the rejection, the betrayal. And so I believe that me too, right? My abandonment, my rejection, the betrayal, and my quest to believe my truth that I'm chosen, that I'm set apart.

And.

And so I think that I had to take a chance because I've always had to do things differently, and that's what sets me apart. I'm not like everyone else. And so I think what makes the difference is that I do tell my story. Like, I come in and I just walk it with you. It's not a Omni expert trying to tell you how to live your life. I'm like, nah, girl, me too. Yeah, I get it. Let's. Let's get it. I'm not telling you anything I haven't been through. And I think that that's the integrity that restoration gives, like, the. It anchors you to. It's because it's like, no. Like, I am in the pain, too. Like, middle moments don't stop up. They transition us through life. And so as I am learning, I then get to be transparent and then learning the difference, right, of how am I. How can I hold space? How can I always be authentic without bleeding on my clients or on my interns, on my students? And so holding space, space for them, but being authentic and transparent, where I just. I come along beside you and creating this safe space where I'm like, yeah, me too. Let me tell you what I tried last week. Yeah. And this is what I got to last week, right? So, yeah, so this is how I know it works. And they're like, oh, okay, so I'm not alone. And so I think that that's why it works so well, because I'm like, yeah, me too. My pain, too.

That's so great. I think, you know, you're a good steward of your pain. Like, when. When you have taken that and. And you come alongside, I can. Even as you talk about that, Dr. Sasha, I can, like, experience, like, the Difference between the striver, you know, that's just trying to be, you know, be. Be better than to the one that's just, like, come alongside. That's just so beautiful. I love that.

I was reflecting on how many times when a client moves into their piece, their truth for the first time, and how many of that idea of chosen has been the thing that, like, moves them forward, how powerful that is for them. And, you know, you've. You've done a us. You know, from parole officer to, you know, then working in the prison system to, like, private practice coaching, you've done a wide variety of things. I'm. I. I don't know. I was just. I would. You know, it seems like all that has brought you to this moment, you know, to the work that you do. Tell me a little bit more, I guess how all these pieces. I'm not saying this right, but I'm curious how all that experience, like, jumbled together, mixed together, shows up in your work. Like, how it's made you, like, uniquely you. Because it's a really interesting, I think, combination of experiences. I didn't ask that question right, so give it a shot.

I think working in criminal justice, it did lend itself to my control. That black and white, it just. It made sense, but it also. There were several points in the journey that I got opportunities or that I met people who took a chance. I just. I've always had favor. Like, I will just speak to that. I remember my supervisor who supervised me in the. In the prison when I worked in substance abuse. He. He told me, he said, I think you're brilliant. He's like, but you are so hard to work with. And I was like, what? He's like, yeah, you're really defensive. He was like, so he's like, I'm not gonna lie. I'm a little scared to give you feedback because you're so defensive. But I. He was like, he knew. He.

He.

He knew substance abuse. He understood it, and I wanted to know it. And so I said, okay, I'll accept that. So give me. Just give me some time, because I want to figure out what's happening and why I'm so defensive. I don't know why I'm so defensive, but it was moments like that. Like, if in the journey, I've had just different moments like that, whether it was with clients, you know, where, you know, clients left and didn't come back, and me just having to sit down and, like, what. What happened? Like, what. Why didn't they come back? Or are clients just being Honest. I think that's one thing about my clients as well. And I, I tell them that, like, I'm going to be honest with you, so I need you to be honest with me. And so getting that honest feedback sometimes doesn't always feel good. But I just, I think that especially, you know, you're working with 18, 19 year old young boys in their truth. And so just having, though, having to look at those things, I think God has just used all of those moments to just create this framework. And especially so I was just, I was just doing it at first, but when I got in the prison system and because I was working with these women for a prolonged amount of time, I began to see like, okay, there's something like I keep. There's a pattern here and I don't know what it is. And that was the framework. So that was the awareness of it. And I'm like, oh, okay. I can see in our trauma, part of the, you know, the coping is the rationalizing. And that means that we're not being honest with ourselves. And so there needs to be a part of this awareness. And so I started to build out the awareness. But first I had to do it with myself. And so anything that I've had to do with the client, I've had to do with myself first. And so God in all his kindness has always brought someone in my life that would help me do the thing, the framework, and then I would implement it, and then I would learn how to implement it with my clients.

That's great.

Yeah, I love that.

So I'm looking at the time and I'm like, we have to do our intervention moment today because we have to get move into. I wish we had like, maybe, maybe we'll get. I, I would love to do a Dr. Tasha Bisola episode at some point. Just let, maybe we just have them do a few episodes. But I'm excited to get to this intervention moment today. What do you think, Rhett?

Yeah, you got, you got. Go ahead, Lance.

Well, I, I want to start with Dr. Tasha. What are some of your favorite interventions that you're finding yourself doing now in the therapy room?

So again, I love, I like to do re parenting. Yeah, I like to do the wiser self. I've reframed it, but that's what it is. And then lately something that I have been doing for myself is some, some neurosomatic. So just really trying to understand. So in the truth, just in the body, just trying to figure out how to rewire and fill it in the body. So I'm trying to do it for myself first. And so my goal is to. I want to do some training on some somatic work so that I can. In my brain and go with me, because I'm still trying to understand it for myself.

I'm with you.

No, it's just good when I get my clients to the truth so I can get them to feel the pain in their body. And so I'm just trying to figure out how to. As removing the pain, how to also anchor. It's almost like the GPS point. Like, how do I reroute it? Reroute the truth as we are. We're getting into the truth. Truth. And so I'm trying to figure it out for myself, and I want to take some training for myself before I implement it. But those are some of the interventions that I'm using right now.

That's so great. I think that's. I love that type of intervention. Terry does this a lot, too. He'll have it, like, he'll have you put your hand on your heart or even, like, wherever that place is, and then he'll say, all right, stop.

Say.

And then it becomes a. He does it enough times in the therapy. And this is what I've been doing is instead of, like, you know, telling them stop and do their four steps, I will. I'll say their name, right? I'll say Rhett.

Rhett.

And then I'll just put my hand on my heart. So. And that there, it becomes this new language between us of, hey, oh, oh, yeah, I need to do my four steps. What's that? Truth. Say it again. You know, we'll stand up or. Or whatever, you know, so, yeah, I love. I feel like the more that we attach it to our bodies and we make it physical, it just. I don't know, it just, like, marries everything so much better.

Michael Pachuco, a few episodes back, he. Lance, you may explain this better, but he talked about the intervention, like, sometimes putting your head, your hand on your head and your heart, and, like, where are you saying that truth from? Is it. Is it here or is it here? My heart. You can't see it on the screen, but down here. And. And it takes a long time to move it from just, like, this intellectual, like, yeah, I know my truth. I'm a Christian. I know God loves me. But to, like, be all that.

Yeah, yeah, totally. Like, the. The thought. You know, I was thinking about strivers, like, they. They feel it so much in their necks a lot of times when they're performing. So I'll have them kind of put their hands on their necks sometimes and just be like, all right, how's this working for you? You know, and then have them stretch their arms out. And that usually relaxes it.

I. I love that you're something you're working through. And I was like thinking your phrase about kind of like rerouting through their GPS their truth. Like, what would that look like in the end? Like, what's your. Like, what if it works and this intervention works? Like, what. What would happen in the room? How would the client experience that? You think, at least right now, in your understanding of it, what would. Might. What might that process look like?

I think it would look like. So I'll tell you how I'm experiencing it now. So there's almost like an alignment. So I noticed that my pain is there, but. And I am noticing, like, I didn't recognize it until you started doing it, but I do realize that I am placing my hand on the pain, but there's almost. There's an alignment happening. And I noticed that. I. Even if I don't acknowledge the truth here, I'm moving in it. Like, so they're like, my body's responding as if it's true. So even like preparing for this, right? Like, I do all the inadequacy stuff and I'm like, okay, okay, okay, okay. Were it would have lingered, like, it would have lasted, and I would have been in here doing all the high performing things. But what I was able to do was just kind of like, okay, what is okay? Like, take a couple of deep breaths. Okay. What is true? You're chosen, right? The speaking is evidence of the faith that you're. You're supposed to be here.

All right.

And then I just show up as if. So there's like an alignment that happens. And what I'm realizing is that just like the coping skills and the pain just show up in the truth. Those behaviors show up. So I may not even realize the emotion or the belief, the primary emotion has changed, but the behaviors are there. And so now I'm having to go back and track like, oh, yeah, I am operating as though I am chosen. Oh, I am operating as though I believe that I'm enough.

Yeah, I. One of the things I, you know, this has been something I'm learning here recently too. You know, I think one of the really powerful things about rt and I think why it's really transformative across whatever culture or background or context you're working with, is that it invites clients into an opportunity to Take an empowering stance. Right. In their truth, regardless of their situation. What. What is. What is the truth? And what is that empowering self stance I can show up in now? And I. I was thinking of that too, because sometimes we don't always feel it or believe it, but we take that stance anyways.

Yeah.

And the more we step into it, the more it kind of reinforces this idea. Because I would imagine in the beginning, you didn't feel chosen necessarily, but you. You were doing things maybe that. That if I saw you, I'd be like, that's somebody who. Who knows she's chosen, even though maybe you didn't feel it. Totally.

Right. Yes. Correct. Absolutely.

Yes. That's good. Yeah.

That's what I love about rt. Just man inviting in that moment. What. What, you know. You know, the empowering stance or you mentioned. You said you're reframing the wiser new self a little bit for your work, I'd imagine for your coaching work. What is. What does that look like right now for you?

It's more. I'm just. I'm trying to find language that makes sense for the clientele that I work with. And so when I first started and I would use the wires, the wiser self, it wouldn't. It wasn't landing. So, like, yeah, the intellect, like, they would just. Yeah. I'm like, okay, let's hold on. That's not working. So what we just do is we use fresh perspective. Like. Like, let's look at this from a fresh perspective. And I think what that allows them to do is one, get out of the black and white. But it is the wiser version of themselves saying, oh, there's more than one way to look at this. And so that's the lingo. Like, so that's the language. Oh, fresh perspective on this.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah. The future wiser self has a certain imagery of. Like. I picture Lance was, like, smoking a pipe with a big beard, you know, talking about the future wiser self.

The guy. That guy that's finished, you know, all the. All the stuff of life and has finally. Unfortunately, it doesn't work for me because I have a summer beard, you know? Yeah, it's, you know, summer here. Some are there.

It's just.

It's just not gonna happen.

I like it, Lance. See, she was nervous hopping on the podcast with us until she met us. She's like, this is gonna be. This is gonna be easy.

She was like, I can hang out these two shs.

Yeah. I don't have to perform at all.

Well, I, I did want to talk about one thing that you've done, Dr. Tasha, that I think, you know, for our listeners, I think is such a great exercise to do with your clients. And I, I, I like how you've taken chosen and you've turn it into an acronym on, on your website. I don't know how often you do this with your clients, but I'm going to read what it says here. It says chosen isn't just a name, it's a call to see. Excuse me. See Courageously harness resilience. And the C and the H are kind of like the, you know, first two letters of chosen and then own our authenticity. That's the O. Right. S is to shape a purpose driven life. That's the S chosen and then E. Empower yourself with confidence and clarity comma while nurture growth, healing and self love. And I love this line. You say you are not here by accident, you are here because you were chosen. This is like a soliloquy or an acronym and I think it's a great exercise to spend with clients to take their words that they have put down on their truths. And I like how yours lean into new action. I'm chosen so I can courageously harness resilience. I am chosen so I can own my authenticity. I'm chosen so I can shape a purpose driven life. I'm chosen so I can empower myself with confidence and clarity. I'm chosen so I will nurture growth, healing and self love. So I would really recommend if you have a client that has, you know, a truth that you know it's not too long because it can be, can get pretty long, is try and link those together. It's such a great exercise to do and then have them like recite it in session with you. It can be super powerful. When I read that I was like, yes, T. Dr. Tasha's our people.

I don't think I've done that before. Lance.

Oh yeah, it's so much fun like.

Taking that and help kind of link that I have them write something, you know, if I've done it, it was unintentionally. So I, that's a good one for me I think just to like pay attention to because clients often know themselves best even though they don't think so and taking their language and empowering them to, to do that. It's almost like a vision, mission statement people have.

Yeah.

You know, people like to have this vision or mission statement but to have this statement about their truth that they can access I think that would be really powerful. I like that. I'm gonna have to practice that.

Nice. Is that. Is that your flow, what you're thinking of, Dr. Dr. Tasha, or is that what I just.

You just make that up, Lance. Just kidding.

No, no, absolutely.

Yeah.

That.

That was the flow. That. That was my. That was how I landed in my truth of chosen. Like that was because I'm chosen. These are the things that I want to do for myself. Yes.

It's so beautiful. That is that you are aligning right there. It's so powerful.

Thank you.

That's so good.

Sorry. I get excited about this work.

No, I'm excited that you recognized it. I don't think you, like, no one else has put that together, so I appreciate that.

No, that's good. I. If you guys all have a few more minutes, I'd like to actually close just one things we think a lot about is integration.

Yeah.

And, you know, you've. You've. You've talked about your faith on here. We haven't talked a lot about it, but you've brought it up and, you know, I would. We believe RT we works in as well in the faith community and those who. Who don't have a faith and that we can use the same tools. But we really love the integration piece. And I'm wondering, you know, you talked about coming, like, out of. Out of bondage. You've referenced just the work of God in your life. And I'm curious, like, right now, in the work that you're doing, if there is, I don't know, a story or a passage of scripture or a character that you find yourself, like, leaning into a lot that kind of quantifies this RT work that you're doing.

Yes. So I just did a series last month for a women's group on Hagar, and so we did a case study on Hagar in her middle moment.

And.

And so we just talked about God finding Hagar in the wilderness, which was her middle moment. And I walked them through her pain cycle. So we talked about the, you know, what formed her pain cycle. I drew her pain cycle out. We talked about, you know, when the angel found her and how that anchored her in her truth. And we created the peace cycle. And then I just had to draw on that story to begin to understand that how faith and therapy can coincide and how they are able to build upon their stories in their middle moments and use this pain and peace cycle. And so I use the four questions to help them begin to build their pain and peace cycle.

Wow. And I. I know there's people. I don't know who Hagar is, so please tell people who Hagar is, because this is very important.

So Hagar was the concubine, I guess, of Abraham, Abraham and Sarah. So when Sarah couldn't get pregnant, she gave Hagar to Abraham and he got her pregnant. When she got pregnant, she got a little arrogant. So it was part of her pain. She got a little arrogant and started mistreating Sarah. And Sarah got upset and told Abraham, like, look, you got her pregnant. I'm blaming you now. Look how she's treating me. And Abraham was like, you do what you want to do with her. Sarah began to treat Hagar really bad, and Hagar ran away. And when she ran away, she ran into the wilderness. And when she was in the wilderness, an angel came to her. And as the angel came to her, he spoke to her about her being pregnant, gave her the name Ishmael, told her about her pain, and she was the first person to name God. Elroy, the God who saved sees me. And so he told her to go back. You know her truth. The God who sees me, he told her to go back. And so we talked about that as well. Go back and submit. And then this is your promise. So I'm gonna give you a promise as you go back to this place. So that was Hagar's story. So, yeah, it was. It was so good. Like, I didn't. I didn't expect. I just said yes. And so I didn't even know who I was gonna talk to, talk about. And so when I. I got that download and I didn't even recognize. I'm gonna tell you, when I first read Hagar story, I. I had to be forgot because I'm like, okay, help me understand how this makes sense. So that was the first time I ever realized that she was having a middle moment when I did it this time.

So good.

Yeah, yeah, it was really good.

I love that. Because Ishmael means God hears, right?

Yes.

So God hears and God sees.

Wow, that's such a. That's for another podcast, but I was thinking about the integration piece, and just, you know, there's just your idea of walking the pain and peace cycle through different characters of the Bible and often characters that are overlooked who are, you know, right behind me, There's a book, actually, same author, a different book, but Phyllis Tribal, who is a biblical scholar, more kind of the feminist leaning, she calls that a text of terror. And she looks at how a lot of the women, especially in the Bible and lots of stories are just overlooked and really, really not felt chosen. And. And there's a purpose that they're in the Bible and there's a truth in there that God is working in their life. But we in our culture tend to overlook those stories. And just you sharing that, I don't know, that's just really empowering. I was thinking Lance and Dr. Kazar about, like, some of the integrated pieces, maybe for rt, are just thinking theologically about some of the overlooked characters and how we can help clients who often feel overlooked or neglected connect, because it's easy to connect them with the big characters that everyone's always talking about.

Yeah.

You know, the Davids and Josephs and Ruth, even whoever. But like, Lance, you. You had to say, hey, tell people who Hagar is, because most people probably do not know.

Yeah, like, Hagar, is that the. But yeah, it's so good. There's. There's another book called Mary's of the Bible, and I can't remember the author. I think I have it in here. Anyways, you'll put on the. On the podcast.

Yeah.

Really great book. It really. What it does is the. The author really brings in like, all the different texts, the cultural elements, and really brings these characters to life and at their middle moments and kind of draw like, you know, like, hey, David, he was not really. What he did to Bathsheba was horrible. And a lot of times people put Bathsheba in this, like, she's this harlot that's doing these things. But no, that is not true. Yeah. So I think taking time to look at scripture and grow, go deeper with scripture. What's scripture really saying here can be make a huge difference as well people's lives.

And I think doing the work as a therapist to help clients who, like you said, step in the office in their middle moment, maybe not having anywhere else to go to get help, you know, so feeling already overlooked or isolated or powerless and to con. To help them find a face and connect them with the person who was in that situation, you know, is. It's beautiful that we can use that text thousands of years ago. And you had this study with these women. Was it empowering to them?

Oh, yeah, it was. Yeah. They. We were all in awe. We were like, oh, my God, this is so good. I'm like, I know, I know. I just got this last night.

Yeah, I. I keep wiping my eyes here because I just got just tears emotional coming because it's just powerful the way God word, like, continues to speak to us and meet us in Our most painful times. And we'll have to. Yeah. I need to go back and visit Hagar. That's a really beautiful text.

Is that available? Did you make that available, Dr. Tasha? I know you do video stuff. Is that. Or is that just a group?

No, I have a PowerPoint. I don't think, I don't think I recorded it, but I do have the PowerPoint I can make available.

Well, real quickly let's tell people how. Because I think you're just an amazing resource. Dr. Tasha. How would what tells people how they could, you know, get to know you or. And the like. I just like I love for people to be able to know what you're about, how to connect with you if they want to see you in therapy, go to coaching or you know, become your next intern.

Yeah, no, absolutely. So I. My website is chosen counselingservices.com I made. You can email me. I have to look up my email because I have this crazy long email address.

That's okay. I'll. I will put your email also in the show notes and all that as well.

Also I'm on. I'm on Instagram at chosen counseling and coaching services. I have a YouTube channel that is called Letting Go with Grace with Dr. Tasha and Portia. And I have a couple of new things coming out. So we will have a devotional coming out called Eyes Wide Open and it is about the middle moment and just taking these 21 days of just walking through this framework. It does have some just really restoration therapy just of understanding your pain and taking it to God. And I am looking for some new interns. So if you would like to work with me, I am open to. To just meeting with some people. Bisola was a absolute joy to work with and she sharpened me much more than I probably sharpened her. She doesn't know it. And then.

She's amazing.

Yes, she is. She is amazing. And then last I will be launching a YouTube slash podcast called Just Talk with Dr. Tasha. And then the goal is just to have just my. My avatar, my clients. So high achieving African American women just to come on. Just to get some clarity. Just so radical honesty. So helping them understand what they aren't being honest about and just getting them to their next step and then getting them plugged into some resources. Wow.

Yeah. And that long email is chosen at counseling coaching services.org But I will put all this in the show notes and I'm going to add you to our. We just started. I. I just started because I'm the Lance is in California not Texas, but just trying to start an RT Texas kind of zoom call once a month just for RT therapist to connect and talk and consult and just get off the ground. So love to have your experience and voice and that conversation whenever you're able and look forward to connecting with you, hopefully in person at some point here.

Absolutely.

Well, any final words? Lance?

I'm just thankful. Thank you, Dr. Tasha. I'm, I just so, so blessed by your work, your heart and your passion. You are a gift to all of us. So thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you. Have a good day, everyone.

Thank.

You.