Season 1 | Episode 2 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Michael Cox

All right, guys, welcome to our new RT dialogue.

What's up, Rhett? How you doing today, man?

I'm doing pretty good. How are you?

I'm doing well. I'm. I'm excited. I'm excited for today.

You're gonna introduce our guest here.

Yeah. We are very blessed to have.

A.

Awesome brother and the therapeutic world. Michael Cox. He is spoken at multiple RT summits. Now. He is our. I guess he has lots of renown. I mean, he's. He's done hideaway. I don't know how many hideaways you do a year, but I think you're.

You're.

You're like the iron man of. Of intensive. Also a fam. Does a lot of family stuff. So I'm just excited to have Michael here today to be able to chat about restoration therapy. I think we've chosen the focus of family, particularly around adolescents and teenagers is kind of our major topic. But knowing us, we'll probably jump around with that. But, Michael, welcome.

Thanks. Very good to be here. Always good to see you two guys and spend some time with you. So I'm excited.

Yeah.

And.

And he is one of the few guys. Well, there's more, but, like, in Texas, we are the Texas. We're part of the Texas crew. Lance of rt.

People, we're kind of small in number in Texas, but we're mighty.

Yeah, yeah.

You guys. I mean, there's some. There are some. You know, Texas. Texas is where it all begin, guys.

Yeah, that's right.

I mean, Terry and Sharon are like Amarillo, you know. I mean, now. Now, where are you, Michael? In Texas. What? Just for people that might be looking for.

Yeah, I'm in the Austin area. I live and practice in a little, small community called Pflugerville. Well, relatively small suburb of Austin. Just north.

Right on.

Yeah.

Tell us a little bit about, like. Well, I think what we'd love to hear, just to kind of start off, tell us, you know, a little bit about your practice, what you do, and then we'd like to know, like, how did you. How did you get into rt? Or how did RT come cross your paths?

How did RT get in me? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, exactly. It does do that, though, right?

It has a way to take off.

Yeah.

So the easy part is here in Flugerville, I have a private practice. It's myself, and I've got two associates, and I'm a licensed professional counselor supervisor. So I have a couple of supervisees that aren't in my practice that I work with. In the practice, I focus on families, couples, and then adolescent adolescents, male particularly, but I'll see anyone 15 and older. And if you're younger than 15, I require family therapy. And we'll get into that a little later of why I do that. And then the other two ladies that work with me kind of see some of the other populations and some that I see. And so that's our practice here, Pflugerville. Been in pflugerville practicing since 2022. No, 21. And so I'm in my fifth year of my private practice. I was at another counseling center prior to doing that and so went on my own back in 2019. Wait, is that almost six years now?

Yeah.

Wow. There we go.

Easy.

So pretty wild. So, yeah, I do do that live with here with my wife of 23 and a half years and three boys, all teenagers. And so not only do I get the great joy of practicing with teenagers, it's a day to day practice in my own.

Wait, what's the ages again?

Yeah, 18, 16 and 13.

Oh, man, you are like in the thick of it.

Yes.

That's got to be a loud house too. Like just there's like probably bouncing balls and like all kinds of craziness.

I would agree. You know, there's, it's, it's louder when we have what we call our bonus children, our boys and their friends.

Yeah.

At our house. And so it gets. Can get loud, but it's fun. It's a lot of fun being in the midst of. Of our boys and what they all have going on. So enjoy it. What's that?

How'd you get into the restoration therapy?

Yeah, that was my next route. So the short of it is in 2010 is when I graduated my master's degree. This is my second career. I was in ministry prior to this. And after graduate school, the church, we.

Just have to stop. There's like a connection here. It's like former pastors become therapists. Is that like a the thing?

It's, it's. We're in recovery. Like, we're pastors in recovery.

That's a whole other. We should do that podcast someday. What? Where did you do your grad school at?

At Wayland Baptist.

Okay, that's in Texas, right? Where is that at?

Up in the Texas Panhandle, just south.

Okay.

Which is actually how we got connected to rt. Our church was doing five days to a new Marriage and brought in folks to train folks within our church. And we were part of marriage ministry at our church. And once we Went through the five days training. Our pastor said, hey, there's this thing called the Hideaway that these folks run up north, just north of us. You and your wife should go and go learn, really get some hands on experience in how to do this. What they were saying the five days to a new marriage. I was like, yeah, we go for it. And so my wife And I in 2011 went to the Hideaway experience and it kicked our tails. We thought we had a decent marriage, right? We, we were doing all right. At 10 years in and two kids down, you're like, hey, no. At that point, three. We had three kids and the, the youngest was very little. He's born in 2011, July and this was fall of 2011. And we go the Hideaway and realize how jacked up we really were. And some things that we were like, we weren't, you know, it wasn't nothing extreme at that point, but we really weren't functioning to our best and got to the Hideaway and just realize a lot of what we now know, how much we were operating in our pain and how we get stuck in those things and how our lives have been influenced by that. So we learned that and we was again, we did learn to go back and take it back to our community, but it revolutionized our marriage and put us on a trajectory to where we literally are today and how to work through conflict, how to work through difficulty, how influences prior to our marriage influence that. And so because I had literally just graduated from graduate school, I was like, if this is what this did to my marriage, then why would I do something else? Like, why in the world would I take any other approach? Because I firsthand saw what it did to impact me personally and therefore my marriage. Since 2011, it has been full force. At the time I was doing, I was working at a university at my Alma water as the campus counselor. And so I started because I was working with adolescents and teenagers and a little bit of marriage with the stuff we're doing at church. I was like, well, I guess I'm going to use this with the people that I'm working with. And I just started, started doing it and the rest is history.

Were you therapist at the Hideaway? Who'd you guys have?

We had Skinner. My goodness, last name is not coming to me.

Gary Skinner.

Gary Carrie. And then we had Ginny.

Ah, Jenny.

Yeah.

What year was this?

You said 2011.

Oh man, I just missed you.

Just barely missed you. Yep.

Yeah, I was there 2010-2014 that you could have had me which would have probably been a disaster.

So my marriage would have been over by now.

I mean, were you. That guy who's. Who often shows up at intensive is, like, often a pastor, too? I don't know why I'm here. I'm just coming here to observe, kinda.

It's funny because the people there actually said that. So, you know, we go the first night, you talk about what's going on the first day, started talking, working on your pain. And of course, you know, we thought we had a pretty good marriage. So we're like, we don't have a pain. We're not having affairs. We're not. And everybody was like, why are y' all here? Like, we don't. We're here to learn. Well, you know, as you folks both know, get through about half day a day one, and it was pretty obvious why we were there. We didn't have comparable issues, I guess you say, as the folks that were there. But it was pretty clear that, okay, no, so I didn't take on that attitude. Um, but I definitely. We kind of got that sense from everybody else. Like, this couple's not where we are. Why are they here?

It's. It's amazing, like, even at the initial phases of seeing your pain and peace cycle in front of you, like, how transformer that is. I mean, that was my experience. That's Lance experience. Like, it just, you know, you can be within an hour of, like, being introduced to it or within that day, and you're like, oh, something has shifted within me.

Yeah. Yep. I think it's probably part of why I love it is when I get to work with couples or even individuals is just this light bulb that goes off of, yeah, that's exactly what we've been doing. Or, yes, that's where we're stuck. And just the visual that folks get to see when they see a pain cycle is. And they become disgusted with it. They're like, it's that simple. And we've keep been doing it, like, but it's also liberating because it's like, okay, we don't like that. We don't want to keep doing that. And so I enjoy that. I don't think people finding. Getting some insight into what they're doing is new to the world, but when people get a chance to see it and then I think what's beautiful about RT is that we give them a hope of change.

Right.

Hey, this is the cycle that you're in, but we can teach you. I can teach you how to get out of it. And get out of it pretty quickly at some point.

Yeah. That hope of change, to me, I think is so exciting. You know, I think. I agree, like, when you first see your pain psych, you're like, it's that simple. No way. But the first time when you go through your four steps and you find yourself regulated and you're like, oh, this feels so different. I don't have to be a hothead, you know, I don't have to, like, put on this big show right now. It's just amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And some Terry talks a lot about, too. Then we can talk about this later. But, like, it's a beautiful way of starting to organize and structure, like, the. The therapy that's going to take place when you actually have your pain cycle and your peace cycle. And I never really thought about. I know when you start off training as a therapist, you think about, like, different things in session and how to do a session. But, like, I think. I don't know if it was taught too much in grad school that, you know, how you organize and structure your therapy in the session is what's going to move the needle, you know, and that's what I love about RT as well.

Yep. That sequencing that we talk about. Right?

Sequencing.

Yes, Sequencing through something. There's a rhythm there because, you know, you guys probably experience this just as much as I do. People, we enjoy a good fight, right. To come sit in an office and let's banter back and forth and all these different things. But then you walk away and what have you done? All right, so what? That's great. We got into an office and there just was a third party to view our argument or to argue or to view our dysregulation. But you leave and you're doing the same thing. I love how it structures the session, but also structure you towards wellness, towards healing, towards an outcome, towards peace.

Right.

And so it's just nice to have that process, even though it might land differently and kind of how you're getting there.

Yeah, I. I think it's important, like, to name the practice. Like, so we're talking organizing, sequencing and structuring. This is. This is very much in the very front of therapy with our clients. Organizing is all about trying to get down to, okay, you did this. What was. What was happening before that? What was going on inside of you? What were you experiencing? So you're kind of like just naming the experience and trying to figure out those major words that are driving the unhealthy coping behavior. And we Kind of sequence it with our clients and then we finally structure it in the pain cycle.

Yeah.

You know, Michael, we have you here today and you're working with adolescents. Is it okay if we move into that?

Yeah.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about. I think one of the things that I really like about what you've talked about doing is you will actually do a pain in a peace cycle all in one day with like, first. First or second. Could you tell us about that?

Yeah. So I guess to give a little bit of background for those that may not have it is, you know, as you asked me, how do I get into the RT world?

Right.

And how to start doing this? And so at the time, I had already, because most of my ministry world was. Or time was with adolescents and their families. And so it just felt natural of like, okay, I'm learning something new. How do I apply that? And so literally, trial and error is where it was of, okay, these. What I'm identifying for these young people is that something's not going well. We've got to figure out a way to help structure them into what's going on and how to change things. And so I literally was trying to take the principles and practices of RT and like, okay, I'm going to try this with this teenager and try this. And at some point, I began to see stuff working right. And helping them. And so typically would come in a young person experiencing whether. Whatever it is they were experiencing and trying to help them find pain words was really tough. Right. They would always give this sense of secondary pain. Well, I'm angry. I am pissed off at my parents. I am. Whatever it would be. And we would try to walk that. And it was really hard to get them to get back to those primary words. So I would spend time trying to figure out how do I help them identify their pain. Like, what is that word? Initially, I kind of was giving it to them. Right. I would give suggestions. Well, it sounds like this is what's happening. And that was working and helping them get those things. But then I began to try to figure out, like, what are some exploratory things to help them learn how to identify that word themselves. And so we just literally was going back and forth often to try to figure those things out. But what I noticed was young people typically, and I don't think this is much different than adults typically were landing at their coping. Right. And they were landing at this is what I was doing. Well, why were you doing that? Because my parents were da, da, da. Da. So what we know in the RT world is they're blaming, right? It's because my parents are doing this and my parents are doing that and then bring it back to. But what sounds like to me is, and we get that pain word. Sounds like you don't feel hurt, doesn't sound like you are so and so forth. Yeah, that's exactly. My parents never hear me. They never do whatever is going on. And it's like, okay, so we begin helping them understand what's the pattern, what's going on consistently within themselves. But what I also noticed in that. In doing it once we're able to identify it, and what I was noticing is when young people would leave, depending on what they came into the room with, they're going back to it. So if I was only identifying a pain cycle, then you're leaving a very vulnerable, not completely developed prefrontal cortex to go and figure out what to do with that. Oftentimes we get a call back or something going on. My kids flipping out or they're doing whatever. What is y' all doing? Session or what's going on? Then I began to realize I have got to figure out a way to help land them differently when they leave my office, right. To offer some level of hope. And so in that I would literally, we'd get a pain. Y' all know, getting a pain cycle really not that tough. And getting it down pretty easily. And I would then start stepping in with suggestive words of truth, right? Of, hey, I hear this. So if instance, like, I'm not heard. I'm not valued. And so we start talking through it of, well, what do you do with that? Well, I'm fighting my parents. I'm leaving the room. I'm throwing this. I'm doing whatever. Okay. All right, cool. So tell me about your best friend. What about my best friend? What happens when your best friend. You and your best friend get an argument. So to walk through a circumstance of what was happening for them in that relationship. So what did you do with it? I just listened to them and I just was present. Okay, so what if we tried that with your parents? So what that tells me is you have value because your friend really trusted you. They leaned into what's going on. So you do have value. You do have worth. We see that. Okay, so you said with your friend, you really listened and you were present. You're be there. How about we try that with your parents? Let's try that with your parents. Next time you're going to argument, let's walk this and so in that one session and exploration of what is happening with them in the argument with their parents, what they typically do with it, use other resources, trusted others to figure out where are some of the truths. And maybe I'm speaking that truth into them in that moment. And let's try this on for a new action. Let's try this on for something else to do differently. Okay, so when you come back next week or when you come back in two weeks, I want to hear where you've done this with your parents, what you've done with friends. And we typically. It wasn't like a, you know, sometimes we do with folks and adults it's a three or four words. What are all your pains? What are your three or four coping typically with a young person, where I've landed is let's get one or two. We're doing really good. If we can nail down one pain, one coping, one truth and one new action. If we get more, great. But it gives them something to walk away with. And they're not walking away raw and vulnerable to a place that it could begin when they go in with their parents. It's cycling more because at least has brought it out in the session. But I didn't give them the tools of what to do with it. When they leave, do you.

Do you hand them something? Do you write it down for them? Are they writing it down so they have something like. Like tactile pr, you know, take it tangible, take out of the office with them or is it more like, hey, this kid will remember this and he can go out this week and just like remember, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm curious what that looks like.

All the above. It really depended on the teenager. So yeah, you know, work with teens. It depends on the personality. Sometimes in my intake with them I get understanding about who they are. So if they're artistic, well then it's probably their pain. A P cycle has some level of art with it. They're going to take it and we'll use that in session. If their phones right. They'll you're in your phone all the time, grab it out. Let's copy this information or put this down on your phone. If we've done it on the board a whiteboard in the office, take a picture of it. So yeah, there's usually something with them to go. It's not just in the head knowledge because part of that too is and where we'll talk in a moment when I would ask them to communicate it to their Parents, they would come back out and oftentimes they couldn't remember the language. Yeah, they couldn't remember it. And so there's not that connection. So therefore there's not a follow through with it. And so now what I do is, would have them actually share with. I will bring the parent in, whoever the caregiver is with them and, and they explain it to them what just happened. If I'm doing individual therapy with them, they explain what we just happened through and I tell the parent, this is how you support your child in this process. And what they just learned in session.

Is that an hour long session typically or how much time do you give on the back end? Yeah.

Yep. So typically with a young person It's 30 to 45 minutes. 45. And then the last portion of that, if parent is there, is bringing them in. That's in the introduction of the new skill set.

Yeah.

Once we get to a place where that's not needed, hopefully they're at a place where we don't have to do that back end with the, with the parent, whoever's in there. And again, that's part of what I mentioned earlier. Why 15 and older? That's not a magic number, but it is where I began to recognize that at about 15, they're retaining it, they're using it, they're communicating with their parents. Anything younger than that is where I began to see that no matter what we created, when they left the office, they come back again. They'd be like, yeah, I kind of remembered or I can't find that paper or whatever. And then there was no follow through. So you've got this constant having to come back and start over and work over again. But also you have where the primary influence in their life, their parent or parents, is part of the pain cycle. And so if you have an adult in their life that is not matching the energy or matching the process, you're basically leaving a child to go and try to connect with the, what should be the trusted adults, the primary adults in their lives. And they're consistently in the pain cycle. So who do I, who do I lean into? The therapist that I see once a week maybe if I'm lucky, or the people that are in my life every day. Well, we know they're going to, they're going to engage from what's happening at home as opposed to what we do in the, in the, in the session.

It sounds like you don't feel the pressure to have, have it perfect either. Like you see the pain and peace cycle Especially with adolescence as a developing, like, work in progress. You know what I'm saying? It can be messy as long as it's moving in a direction.

Yep. Especially when I get it out that first round.

Right.

Is because it is simply, let me have something to. And we keep building upon it. And the other end of that is you have adolescents who come in that sometimes these pain words are new. New to them, not new as far as new words. They're just new to them. And so they're trying to figure that out and know, does this really. Does this sit with me? And they're having to go back and engage it. Right. So when you work with a couple, you get to see the interactions, and this is the person who's doing that and what their pain cycle looks like in congruence with each other. Adolescents, you don't always have that with whomever the pain is with. And so you're trying to. They have to start trying this on, like new clothes and figuring that out just as couples would. But you at least have it. The direct interaction with someone else and how it affects them.

How do you. What do you communicate to parents who are like, okay, you bring them in, you say, I'm teaching your kid this pain and peace cycle. And they're. They're maybe asking in no certain way, like, what's the end goal of this? For example, you know, what's the purpose of the pain and peace cycle? Like, how do you, I don't know, define or communicate to parents adolescence, why this is important.

Yeah. I think about the cases of, like, kids where they're like, they've just been doing drugs or, you know, they're exploring sexuality or whatever, you know, and like, I love this question because I get. Yeah, yeah.

So this has been an evolution. You know, Terry challenged me back. I think it was 2016, 18, somewhere in there to start capturing what I was doing. I was. I was just trying stuff and to really start capturing. And when I started having to go back and look at my notes and think of the structure of how I was doing sessions, it began to change. How I even led into some of these things where I sit now and is. My intake is usually pretty rigorous for an adolescent. Is. It's not just the adolescent. It is a conversation with the parents about what's going on, what led there, what is the anticipated goal. Are you just simply asking me to fix your kid? Are you asking me to get them off drugs? Are you asking me to change their sexuality because they're experimenting? What is the intended goal? Because what that does for me is I can determine whether or not I'm going to be able to help. And if you are stating that your child is the issue, I'm probably not the therapist to work with because depending on their age is to be able to have a conversation at, let's just say 15. At 15, your child didn't land here just because it fell out of the sky last night. They landed here for some reason. That's not blaming you as a parent. However, there is some responsibility as a parent. So if you don't feel like you have the tools to help support them or know what to do with that, then let's do this together. Let's work on this together to figure out what's going on. But if your goal is to get me to stop a behavior, I'm probably not the person because there's more behind the behavior. And so what does it look like, an interaction between the two of you to figure out how do we help support you? And then I will tell them we're lucky if I get a week. An hour, A week. What do you think is going to happen in an hour and a week? Nothing. So I need to help equip you as a parent to not support your child. And I need to help your child know how to engage with you when there's conflict. And so why are they landed at what they're experiencing? There are a lot of factors that in that, but you are the trusted adult in their life or adults in their lives. So let's move forward with how we're going to do that. So I have shifted probably in the last four years towards I'm not going to take it on unless parents are engaged and they're a part of the process for myself is in there are special cases now. There are things that young people are dealing with that they've got the greatest support in the world. Parents are doing the best they can and the adolescent just needs to work through something. My argument to that is there's still something that you can do, support them, or you wouldn't be to me. Right. And so what does that look like? Because it could be that you're missing it. It could be that your child is not being open and honest about what they're experiencing. And that doesn't mean you're a bad parent. It means that they're just not being honest. So how do we create a loving and safe environment for them to be honest? And so it's walking through those things. And so it becomes more intensive because I don't just take you on because my child needs a therapist. We got to talk about what our goals are and where we're headed. Because at the end of the day, if it is only about the child, cool. We still need to help you know how to support your child. But if it's something else, it's better that we identify the something else and help equip you as a family to work with what's going on. So needless to say, my adolescent caseload is a lot smaller than it used to be.

Really?

Do you. I. I was thinking about a session I did a couple weeks ago with a teenager, but his mom came in and so I, I wasn't drawing on the board, but I was walking through. I kind of helped her see her pain cycle as well and kind of mapped it out in relationship to the child.

Right.

And so do you spend time doing that when you have parents come in, get them, get them into their. Recognize their pain and peace cycle as well so they can see how you. They feed off each other?

Yeah. Yep. 100. So, yeah, I've been doing some writing and I spent a long time writing about. And it's still important. Like, I can walk you through how to help an adolescent identify their pain and peace cycle. It's very, very important to do that. But the more I did this, I started, I got the chance to do kind of a short term pilot study with a school in Canada back in 2020, 19, 20, 20, 21, somewhere in there and got some great feedback from the young people. And it was the young people and their school staff. So you had adults and teenagers and doing this work together. And what we found was, we thought that it was, they're gonna talk about peer influences, they're gonna talk about peer pressure and what's happened with their friends and breakups and all these different things. But what we found was a lot of their pain was at home. Majority of them were talking about their interactions with their parents. And so from that I began asking them questions about, so what, what do we do? What do we. I don't know what to say. I don't know how to talk to my parents. My parents won't talk to me. Like, all these different things going on back and forth. And it began opening this light bulb of there's something more to this. Adolescents want to know how to do this. They can do this. But those people in their lives, parents, our caregivers that are in their lives aren't exemplifying or aren't modeling it for them. And so I'm going to battle probably the rest of my career if I'm only working with the adolescent. At some point, we have to help a parent identify when your child is behaving, when your child is going, doing whatever disregulated what's going on in you, what's happening in you, how are you engaging? Because it's very likely whatever's going on to them is a result of what's happening in you. And so we've got to help the parent understand their own pain and peace cycle, how to get regulated so that they can help walk through this journey with their child. So long answer. To answer your question, yes, if I'm doing family work, which I love, it's every time I've got to identify what's going on in the parent before I can do what's happening in the adolescent. Because what I've seen over time is that I could do great work with that adolescent and help them identify a pain cycle to peaceful. And maybe it's a sense of success. But I can't tell you how many times I would have a young person come back and be like, michael, I tried, but my parent, or Michael, I tried. And this is where. Right. And so you're battling up against like, what do I expect that teenager to do when they go back home and they're hitting adversity. And that doesn't mean that parents are being abusive or any of those things. It means that their parents are dysregulated. And so how do we help them? And so literally, where my shift has come is what I just described about bring you on adolescence. If you're of a certain age, I am not taking you on because it's like you're sending them, dropping them off, fix them, and then come back. But we're not doing anything to address the dynamics of what's happening in your own home. So true.

It's so sad. I really wanted to be the kid, you know, especially in my household. You know, I, I always think about. It must be them. Right. I. I don't know if you read like Power of Showing up by Siegel and Tina Payton Bryson. It's like, really, I have to think about myself as I walk into this room and how I'm. How I'm engaging. I thought I could just regulate them, but no, I have to regulate myself before I regulate them.

Lance, you and I are on the same page. I was exactly thinking chapter one of the Whole Brain Child by Siegel. Yeah. And Tina Payne Bryson is.

Yeah.

Is if a parent Is not emotionally regulated, then doesn't really matter what happens after that. I was like, but then you come to Restoration Therapy. And I'm like, oh, here comes the I now. I. I can read the Neuroscience behind it by Seagull. And then now, Terry. Terry, with the Restoration Therapy, I have language to, like, organize and sequence and structure what we know is happening within our brains and bodies and stuff.

Yeah. You know, the. Really. The catalyst to some of the change was personal. Like, there's all this work that you can do, but we all go back home to children, right?

Yeah.

So it has to be. He's 13 now, so he was either 9 or 10. My youngest. I'm so sorry that. I know we're recording this, but my dog is having a fit to go outside.

No, hey, this is part of the podcast. Let him out.

We're going live.

Yes. This is. We are a lot of time, man.

This is the real stuff she's having.

I don't like the podcast where they. Someone's got to go to the bathroom, and then you just hear this, like, music playing in the background. Then they're back.

So I at least took you with me, and we're right by the door.

Yeah, it could be worse. It could have been, like, some kind of intervention going on that we just had to sit and watch. So, yeah, you had this, like, personal situation going on.

So my son. My youngest son, James, and I, he was playing select soccer, and I was noticing for him that he wasn't practicing very much, his skills and all that stuff. And so we're headed to practice one day, and I'm like, hey, son, did you. Did you practice? You've been working on this? And da, da, da. And he's like, no. And I said, well, I know you haven't, because I hadn't seen it. So we're having this dialogue about, hey, you want to get to a different level? He was frustrated because the team wasn't getting where he wants to be and all these different things. It's supposed to be select. So he's kind of griping about what's happening. I'm trying to help him with personal ownership, and he's not quite taking it. So we get to practice, go through practice. Well, after practice, we're talking. Me and the coach are talking, and the coach is kind of giving his input on. Input on my son. He walks up, and the coach asked him. He said, hey, have you been practicing the drills I've given you? And he had to say, no. And I, in that moment, said, see I told you, right? My told you so moment was obviously not the best. Took my I told you so moment and I can immediately see on my son's face this sense of dread. So we start walking back to the car and he is down and actually starts seeing some tears running down his eyes. We get to the car and we're talking. I said, man, son, what's going on? He look upset and he kind of sits there for a moment. Then he said, dad, you embarrassed me. I said, what do you mean I embarrassed you? And he tells me that scenario. What just happened? I was like, oh man. So obviously, dad, what's happening in dad? I'm suddenly feeling like I'm the worst dad in the world. I'm not good enough. My own pain is starting to stir up in that moment. Well, my go to is to control. And I'm like, well, while I was trying to do in this. I'm justifying everything I'm doing. This is what I was trying to do. And da da da da. And he's going back and forth and beauty. And maybe the beast of our world is we've taught our boys to be able to speak up and to talk. And he did, right? And so he's challenging some things that we're going back and forth. So I realized this isn't going to get resolved. So we've got to go to Sonic. We're sitting at Sonic. I try to have this conversation. He's given his feedback. We're literally in a pain cycle back and forth. And finally I was like, you know what? I'm about to just explode. I'm ready just to go off on this kid. I just stopped. I stopped talking. I shut down. And my 910, exactly his age. My kid says to me, he goes, I hate when you do that. I said, we hate when I do what? You just stop talking. You just shut down. And of course my therapist brain just goes off. And I was like, dude, how's he just therapizing me? Like, what? What's up with that? Kid just did that, right? And in that moment he goes, I'm just trying to have a conversation with you. I'm just trying to talk. What happened? Expressing what's going on? And he goes, I didn't. I didn't. You don't. I want you to talk to me. Doc's trying to get back in. I want you to just talk to me and let's talk about what's going on. And I was trying to express to you what I was feeling and what I was thinking, and it hit me in that moment of woohoo. He knew how to use the process, but at the same time very aware of how much in my pain I was in this interaction. And I had great influence at this point of my child's ability to continue to do that, or he is either going to do as I did, shut down and no longer engage, see me as unsafe, see me as. And he can't have a grievance with something I've said or done. He can't voice his opinion. So he's either going to shut down or continue to fight harder. It was in that moment I began realizing where this dynamic is and the huge influence I had as a father to being able to help him identify, hey, it's okay to be upset, it's okay to have feelings, all those different things, but how do you regulate them? He called me out right in that moment, called me out on me being in my pain. And I could have chosen, just have been like. And I have in different instances I could have been like, oh well, get over it and just move on through the evening. And we all know where that would have gone in our relationship or choosing that moment to say, you're right, son, I, I have shut down and I really was getting really, really frustrated because I feel like I've just really screwed this up as a dad and I really didn't support you, but I want you to do your best. I want you, I know how great you are and I really want to encourage you in that. And so let's practice together. Like, let's just make a routine that we're going to do this together and where that went completely different than where other instances in our lives have gone. Because in that moment I was setting the pace of whether he's going to remain in his pain, he's actually was in his peace, or am I going to make an instance to say, no, yeah, I'm in my pain and I can choose to do something different and use my four steps. And so it was really the moment that this began to shift in realizing that, wow, this is the impact that we can have in our children. And I had the opportunity at that moment either to take the opportunity to speak peace into my son's life and truth in my son's life and be that, or I can stay stubborn, which I've done, and just be shut down and go home and maybe send him to his room because he was being belligerent. And outcome, we can determine what we're going to do with It.

I just love the irony of a conversation about not practicing leads you to a new practicing here in. Is it. Was it Sonic in Pflugerville, Texas?

Yep, yep, yep.

So you. You drive by that Sonic now, and what does Michael Cox know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's awesome. Yep.

It is a. Yeah, in that. Right.

You see?

And so now it's that place where it's not challenging. Like, I think what happens sometimes is parents in this process feel like we're calling them bad parents or they're not good parents, which we also will say, that's probably their pain. No, that's not it. It's saying, hey, in those moments, just like you would in a marriage, relationship, or any other relationship, it's when you're dysregulated, when something's not going well, what's going on? Like, why is it there so particularly with your child, like, if this is cycling, let's figure out what's going on and who is the person that's most capable in that moment to do that. It's the parent. To help model for our child what to do differently. We tend to, in many circumstances, lean to behavioral change. I just need you to do this. But we're not speaking to what I hope with most parents is to their heart, and how do we help establish some truth in them about who they are. But we can't do that in our pain.

Yeah, I. I contend that there's, at least in the stories that I hear. I know in my examples, my own life. I know for you, Michael. I know for you, Lance. There's. There's usually a defining moment where the awareness of, like, you're in the moment and you. You put to practice the pain and peace cycle in your own life. And that forever, like, defines the trajectory, leaving that moment of, like, the importance of RT and the importance of practice. And it happens to people at the hideaway, right. In their marriage when they start practicing or with you, with your son, like, you know, you talk to clients. I'm sure in adolescence and the whole pain and piece, that doesn't make sense, but once everyone's just got that defining moment, they try something different than they normally do. And it's like eyes, like, the scales fall from your eyes. You just see things differently.

Yeah, yeah, it is. It is literally why I feel like I do more family practice now than adolescent.

Yeah.

Because it is. You know, it is that especially in adolescence, it is that point where they are better to able to identify emotions and what they're experiencing and what's going on, and they're now starting to give language to it, which is part of what happens with us as parents. Right. As a kid, they're throwing a fit and tantrums or whatever it is. They can't really express what's going on. But now they're expressing verbally what's happening, and that may start bumping up against us in our own pain, because they're saying it now. We had the experience of behavior younger, but now something's going on and maybe showing their own pain, but they're not exactly sure what to do with it either. But if we stay in our pain as a parent, like, what is that doing for a child? Right. It's helping them see you, like, think about the work you do with an adult. How much time do we spend, isn't it with adults trying to repair what's going on in their childhood? Right. Because of those instances that parents probably weren't well equipped to get out of their pain into their peace in order to parent their child. So I think we have an opportunity to be able to change the trajectory of families and how to connect, because it's not. I'm not going to maybe be in therapy. Maybe it's not as long my kids in the future because they're learning how to do that differently and what I model and what my wife models in those moments, as opposed to maybe really solidifying a pain cycle. And then we really can help them understand what's going on with them in this regulation and how to move the truth.

Oh, gosh, just love. I can feel that, like, pastor heart flowing. Michael, I'm sure you're an amazing pastor back in the day.

Well, thanks.

I. I had, like, a list of things that I was thinking about, and we're probably not going to be able to hit them. I was wondering if I could maybe name them and then we could just, like, maybe multiple choice. I also want to make sure we get that opportunity to, you know, encourage, like, someone, like, something that people can do today with their clients. What was on your mind, Rhett?

Yeah, no, I. I was. Well, a couple things. One, I was thinking, you know, know the beauty of RT and just talking to you two is like, I find myself listening to Michael's story, and I'm like, I want to be a family therapist. Like, I need to do that work. But then, like, no, no, that's like, that's Michael's gift. Like, I have my own unique qualities. I don't think I'm the best family therapist, you know, but it Also encourages me to grow. Like, there's all these things I'm listening to. I'm like, I could do this better in the room. Like, I'm thinking about, you know, Lance, when I was with you last week recording a podcast, I was like, oh, I could do. Listening to you talk, I'm like, oh, I could try this and practice this and do this. But, you know, we all have our own specialties, which I love about rt. It's like we're all kind of doing our own thing. But I think as a collective whole, there's certain things that we can, like, learn from each other, you know? So I was just thinking about that. But what came to mind, too, is I want to hear about this book. Like, because Terry encouraged you to write notes, right? So you started writing things down, it sounds like, and you started seeing maybe certain patterns or repetitions of thoughts that you were. You were writing. And so tell us about how this book came to be and details around that, what it's about, when it's going to launch, where we can get it, etc.

Yeah, so, yeah, so, you know, after that summit, I don't remember what year it was. I think it was 2016. But after that summit, you talk about.

The one at Pepperdine or the summit? Yeah, the conference. That's where I first met you, I think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were sitting in the room and one of the therapists said, were talking about regulation. And I remember the lady, I remember what she looks like, can't remember her name, but she made a statement. She said we were talking about adolescence for some reason. And she said, adolescence and self regulation, that's an oxymoron. And I just remember, like, I completely disagree. And I was like, I use this with teenagers every day. And Terry says later that caught his ear because he's like, I didn't know anybody was doing this with teenagers. And so that started the conversation that's going back and forth about what we're doing. I think it was a couple years later when I did that presentation on RT and adolescence, that was the challenge for him to kind of, hey, what are you doing? I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just trying it. I'm experimenting. And that was a challenge to kind of keep and start journaling, like, right, what am I doing in this process? And so that started going. And then I don't remember exactly when it was maybe that year in 2018, and maybe it was after, when we did the virtual one. Yeah, he's like, you really need to. You need to write a book on this. And I have never. And even in the process of doing it, I don't know everyone again, but write a book. Like, it was, like, never a goal of mine. And my wife said something, though, at one point that really shifted it for me. She said, michael, there's some things you do without lessons that many people don't. It comes naturally for you. That doesn't come naturally for others, and they need to know how to do it. And that was kind of the catalyst of, like, okay, I need to do something about it. And then Terry was like, you know, really need to write something clinical, because it needs to get you established in the clinical world and kind of get you established this kind of from a framework. And I'm like, that sounds boring. And every time I sat down to write, y', all, I. I would literally write or I would use voice to text Terry. And I even had a couple of calls. I'm like, terri, I just can't do this. Like, I'm writing, and every time I'm either editing myself or I'm frustrated, and I just quit. And I was like. And so I put it down for months, and then maybe I come back to it. And it was never getting there. Well, literally, after having surgery this last summer, Terry and I was on a call in beginning of July, and Terry just said. He goes, michael, what is your heart? Like? What is your heart around this and helping. I said, I really want to help parents and caregivers know what to do in these moments with their teenagers. I said, that gets my fire going is because, yeah, it's great. At some point, I can maybe train some other therapists and that kind of stuff. That'd be really cool. I said, but I have parents in here every day that are just really struggling to know what to do. They have a heart to help and support their children and just feel stuck and know how to do it. And I feel like we have something that helps them know how to do that. He goes, and that's what you write. And when that was said, it's almost like he gave me a release. Yeah, it's like, because this clinical thought, I was like, well, maybe one day we'll get to that. But when he said that, that's when it clicked for me. And I was like, that I'm excited about. And I jumped on it and was like. And been going ever since. And I also discovered AI that I can use a. Almost like an assistant to banter with. Like, I'm writing Something and I'm like, what do you think about this? And it gives me feedback. And we're going back and forth. I think that idea of sitting down and writing is you might as well just torture me. And so when I found that and had a chance to be able to go back and forth and something's helping me edit while I'm walking through the process, took me out of that space and I just got to start writing what I was doing and what was happening. And the research has been going on, on and just over that time is develop into a book. So where we are is by the end of the month. I initially said 10 January, but I decided to stay home with my family and be present during the Christmas holiday. And so I said, I sent them an email and said, hey, I'll have my first rough draft to you guys by the end of the month. So it will go to Terry and Sharon by the end of the month for them to give their feedback, edits, get the red pin out, all that fun stuff. And then once I've done that, I've got a couple other folks that are going to be part of that process. And then once that's done, we'll go to figure out how do we get published and get it in the hands of people. So I don't know yet as far as how you're going to get. I do. I'm in conversations with someone about helping me with that process of marketing and. But it goes to the hands of Terry and Sharon hopefully by January 31st. So.

Great, man. Yeah, so great. I'm just, I'm so thankful that we're finding another resource that kind of packs into how. How do we help parents and caregivers of. Of kids. I think that's. That's what we're needing.

Right.

And there's only, at this point, there's only really a chapter on adolescent regulation. A lot of it is focused on the parent.

Yeah.

The more I've done this, the more I. Where I see sustainable change is when you're addressing it with the caregiver and the child. And so a lot of that is focused on the parent. There's only one chapter on what. How do you support a young person in them identifying their own pain and peace cycle.

I'm glad you listened to your voice. Your own voice too. Like you're trying to fit it into this like, clinical model, which I'm sure you're capable of doing. But like, it sounds like what came out more is that like a pastoral, practical, heart that Lance was describing. You know, can we geek out a second on writing for a second? Because I know lots of people in this community have ideas and want to write, but I just. A couple of questions. Like, what was your rhythm of writing? Did you have, like, a certain day because you're a busy person, you got to practice. You got family. Like, did you. Did you. I. I know Lance was. Was taught a certain, like, method in terms of how much time, maybe you set a timer and you do things. And so, like, what. What did you discover was a good rhythm for you in your busy schedule to actually, like, make progress?

I'm probably definitely not the best example of that.

That's okay. This is great. So it's messy.

My rhythm is no rhythm. Well, that's a rhythm I do so daily. I, you know, I use it sitting right in front of me. Yeah. I try to, you know, get my calendar out, journal, kind of get my day going. And every day, I literally, I map out and say, an hour writing here.

Okay.

Many days I don't. Yep. And some days I do. And so it is literally been a. It's only in that blocked amount of time. What I learned over the process was that when I sit down initially, when I would just sit down, try to write, I would get nowhere. Even when I would do voice to text, it was like a bunch of jumbled mess. However, when I do a lot of the time and I sit down for an hour, that hour oftentimes can turn into two hours. Because what I learned was I really love the dialogue of AI of being able to sit down and like, well, what about this? And so that's where I get excited about it, is having that interaction and writing. So to answer your question, it's. It's written into my calendar every day. It doesn't always get the attention every day.

What did you. What was your favorite? Was it Chat GPT? Was it Claude? Did you have an AI. You use Chat GPT?

Yeah.

Yep. And it's, you know, that by itself is its own learning curve. I am.

Yeah.

The most untechnological, and I'm okay with that person. I just have a couple of guys in our small group that do a lot with it, and they sold me on the idea of, like, hey, you know, you might really. Because my thought was, that's cheating. Something's writing it for me. And so even when I told my boys, like, hey, dad's doing this, and they're like, oh, dad, you're cheating. So that tells you how much I had spoken about it being cheating using AI to do it and. But to be able to walk them through and say, no, this is actually Dad's voice. This is dad writing. This is what's doing. This is just helping me organize it. Yeah, that's what I needed. I think that was the deal is I needed the help organizing.

Well, it's just a really good research tool. The hours that you would spend normally, like back in the day in a library, pulling up the material or even like looking online, you, if you give the right prompts to it, it'll pull all that stuff up in an instant and then you can decide how to take that raw material and put it into your own voice.

You know what's cool though now is, you know, it's one of God's work in making this happen, is. So the book itself is the from 0 to 18 as far as what to do and how to support in those age ranges. But I've already been in this concept. Terry is the one that challenged me to take that approach. I initially was only going to do adolescence and he challenged me to hit the lifespan. But what I will then do in the future is hopefully, maybe workbooks and maybe specific books on those age ranges, because we know that there are different life stages obviously, in working in parenting and so workbooks, to be able to know how do I implement this and how do I work with it. So when you were asking earlier about what do we help parents with? There are different tools I give parents to help and walk through with their kids when they're trying to implement this. And so to be able to build upon that in the future, I got kind of excited about doing that. Whereas before I'm like, writing, I'll get this done and move on. Whereas now I'm like, maybe I can do this again.

So I hope so.

Yeah.

What are your favorite tricks?

Mine?

You gotta. You gotta. Yeah, you're gonna ask, you gotta share.

You.

You've.

No, I. Well, it's been so, so long since the book was published that, like, I'm a different stage of life. And I think what used to work, which was going away at a coffee shop for a long time, I can't do anymore, you know, and just sit there because I have kids are different ages and my work's different. But Lance, you actually, what's been helpful for me is you told me that Dee Dee Meyer recommended that you set a timer for like 35 minutes or something to write.

Ah, yeah, it's like seven o'. Clock.

And when you're done, you're done. And I think lots of good, like writers that I respect or thinkers around writing talk about that. You just set a timer, you write, and when you're done, you're done. You just, even if you're in mid sentence, you leave it and just kind of walk away from it. And so I just try to move the, the stuff along a little bit each day. If I can't do it every day. I have a. A relative who's a writer, and he just, he talks about, you know, giving yourself permission to have days off. Like, I just don't. He won't write on Saturdays or Sundays, you know, you just don't do that. And so I don't know. I try to write about 500 words a day, whether they're good or bad, you know, But I kind of like to edit in the process, which maybe is a whole other headache too, you know.

Sorry, I was getting stuck. Is that. And before music AI was that I would get stuck in that I would literally write a paragraph and I would go back and be like, I hate that paragraph. Or I long change the sentence and I'd be stuck on a paragraph and yeah. Not move forward.

It's hard, too. I noticed, like, our attention spans have obviously evolved over time too. And the books I used to read in seminary sometimes are. Take a lot of work to get through these days. And so I'm trying to think about a reader, like, what's practical, you know, Like, I got some Henry now and books up here on my shelf at work, and I can reread those books multiple times a year. But like, some of the other stuff, it, like.

Yeah.

Is difficult.

It's good for an app.

Yeah. I, you know. So, Lance, this is up to you and Michael, up to you. I was thinking in our remaining time, like a couple big things, I think Lance and that I. Lance and I are interested in your perspective. Michael is. We're really interested, especially from the background you come from. We're really interested if there's a. A theological integration piece that you've really been kind of like wrestling with or turning over maybe in your work with adolescents even, that it could be a theology, it could be a passage of scripture, just something that the integration piece that you think is foundational to the adolescent work you're doing. And then I think too, what we'd like to hear, if there's something about maybe Lance, you can say it's better. Is there something with RT right now that you're just super excited about that you're using in the room maybe that you haven't talked about, like a practice that you're doing that you're, like, introducing or getting your hands around on your own.

Yeah.

You want to help me out there?

What do you think?

Good job. I mean, I think the thing that we're trying to do with this podcast is to really help people to know that restoration therapy is a very experiential therapy. So reading in a book, you kind of get the feel. But I think when you hear the voice, particularly your voice, Michael, there's something powerful about seeing the scene it modeled. And so, yeah, anything that it doesn't have to be specific. Maybe just allow your heart to lead you. Your repaired heart to lead you. Yeah, just any. Any fun thing that you're fun or hard thing that you've been experimenting with in your laboratory.

I. Maybe the hard comes first. And so something that's been a theme that's I'm struggling with. Right. Is when folks. Let's go with couples, when folks are in the room and they've got this really hard pushback to self regulation. All right. And there's this constant, he's doing, she's doing. It's her fault. She needs to. He needs to. And there's just stuck in that mindset. Something as far as what I do with that that's been kind of interesting is don't publish this part. Maybe it's a bad thing.

Well, it's going publishing, so you better let me edit. Hey, you're getting my heart rate going. Talking about this in session. Like, I'm thinking about that right now, so I'm ready to hear what. What will be helpful.

So I've consciously started doing this. I will give couple. So my couple sessions are an hour and a half, and I will give couples about 30 minutes, especially if they're new. And I just let them go at it. I don't interject. I don't say anything. I just literally sit there and watch them go at it. Yeah. And I'm literally taking my notes and about what they're experiencing. I'm probably already starting to look at a pain cycle in my head. Right. I just let them go at it. This might not be anything new, but it's something that's kind of fun and just let them go. And. And I will literally look at my clock and I'll be like, are y' all done? And they'll turn and look at me, and I will say something like, do you realize the two of you just look like two children in a playground having an adult fit.

How's that working for you?

Yep. So I was like, it's probably why you're here. But y' all seem to enjoy it, and there's a sense of, do you really want to get out of that? Like, is this an exam? Like, there's all kinds of language that's happening, right. Is you can continue this way? No, that's why we're in here. Okay, so let's step into what's going on. But what typically happens is we start, you know, looking at what's going on, organizing and trying to talk about what their sequence is and what their patterns are and that kind of thing, and they jump right back into it. And where I think the game changer is, I let them go again and say, okay, it sounds like you really do enjoy this. And we're either going to keep doing this, and y' all can keep paying me to come into my office and fight, or we can choose to do something different. And I have been intentional about trying to do that when couples have come in. And it's amazing how the energy changes, because sometimes, Right. What happens is folks come in and they're just like, all right, what are we going to do? Let's fix it. Well, you know, what is your most recent fight? Or what other typical stuff that we do? I'm just like, tell me what's going on. And I let them just go at it. I don't know if that's anything new, but it's something that is with couples in particular, that I have just been like, let me just see it. Go ahead and get in it. And they giving me all of the information that we need. And it's amazing when they have to literally take a mirror and look at. Look what you just did as two adults. Look what just happened. Do you want to get out of it? So that's. That's been a struggle. And I went there because I was like, how do I get them, like, to not go there? And how do we break this constant bickering back and forth? And adults just stubborn to stay in their pain. At some point, I was like. And literally a couple. Recently, I walked. I have a mirror in my office, too. I walked over, I grabbed the mirror off of the wall, and I just put it in front of them. They were all back before I put it in front of them. And they were like, what are you doing? I said, can you see what? Like, look at yourselves while you're doing this. Look and see what you're doing. Well, that's ridiculous. Exactly. It's ridiculous. So we're gonna do something. I still don't know. I don't know how.

No. I wonder if you've described attention that a lot of therapists feel, you know, because even though I've been doing. You've got. You've been. I've been a long time. You do a long time working with couples. It's the tension of, like, when to step in. And maybe my anxiety gets a hold of me sometimes and I want to, like, help them fix it or solve it. And they're paying me money and all these things versus sitting back and make sure I'm doing the work of, like, really seeing the dynamic play out. Like, I just wonder if that never goes away. Like, if we're always going to be wrestling with that, no matter how good we are or how good a therapist is. Does that make sense?

Yeah. You know, like, even the. The conversation we're having earlier about an earlier session today, it's virtual. And so that's by itself already a bit of a headache. But it is a. When folks have a chance to sit back and, like, see their stuff.

Yeah.

That's where we, you know, we talk a lot about choice. Right. We get to choose what our new action is in the RT world in the four steps is choose a new action. So I. You have evidence to say you're choosing to do this. There is a reason behind it. There's something's in there, but you're choosing to stay in this. And so either you want to change it or you don't. But where do you find my role in it? I'm not going to stay in y' all stuff. Where's my rolling? And so it feels a little liberating, to be honest with you, because I. That that responsibility of fixing it is. It actually helps towards. I think, the. The finding the truth is because I don't like that. I don't like what I saw. I don't like how our interaction. Okay, then let's figure out who you are. So I don't know.

I think you bring up a good. I mean, I always play with this idea of, like, who are we in the room as therapists? What is our role? You know, and there's so many different ideas on, like, how we interact in that space, you know, is my role. Am I the mechanic? Right. Am I there to ratchet you and, like, take out this part, put a new part in? You know, am I here to be the guide? You know, am I here to be the ref? Right. You know, What. What is my role here? And I think it's really important to slow down and ask ourselves, because I think what happens to us so often is we, the clients, give us a role and we fall into that.

Yeah.

And that's just not healthy. Like, it doesn't help. You know, it just.

We.

We're part of that. Just adds us to the system in an unhealthy way. But, you know, I just think about it at the Hideaway. It's kind of like what you're thinking about, Michael, as. You know, like that first, like, big session at the Hideaway. You tell the story of that paralytic.

Right?

You guys all know this story. And the paralytics sitting there and, like, Jesus notices this guy. He's like, what's up with this guy? He's just sitting there, you know, he's, like, asking questions, you know, And. And what does he say? You guys. You guys know the whole. The whole spiel. He's probably done it.

John 5.

Yeah.

Do you want to get well?

You want to get well?

Providing that the other question was. I've forgotten it now.

No, I just. This kind of actually is segues. I. We. We've, you know, not just because we all come from pastoral backgrounds. Plenty people in the RT community don't. But I think we're all interested in, like, some of the theological integration. And I guess I'm just curious in your writing if you found yourself coming back again and again to any type of theological perspective or passage that really kind of undergirds the adolescent work you're doing.

Yeah. Yeah. That one's pretty easy. Personal and professional. Personal is, I think, when I. As a parent. Right. As a father, when do I most get in my pain is when I know that I'm probably not operating as best as a father as I know that I can be. Right. And maybe my influence on my kids is not that great. And so I can easily stay in that pain cycle and cycle. What do I want? I want the best for my children. I want them to know the Lord. I want them to grow. I want all those different things. And I can get so frustrated when I am not speaking truth into them or when I am not connecting with them, with who they are and where they are. And I. And that, you know, when you get stuck in that pain cycle of back and forth, of what's going on for me in my own head, it's that place of, man, I keep messing this up, or we keep doing this, and so on and so forth, what do I want out of that, like, what do I want to be? I want to speak truth over my children. I want to speak truth into my children. I want them to know who they are in the Lord. And I find I am more, more frustrated when I'm not doing that. It's not what my kids are doing, it's not what their behaviors are, it's what am I doing in the midst of this. And so some of that is because I've been harboring here in writing, but it's also like very real with my own experience and that of I see of other parents. Part of the frustration of our constant pain is kind of the foundation of why I wrote this and where it is. We're either parenting from a place of peace or a place of pain. And we're doing one of two things. We're either trying to repeat the wonderful adolescence that we had as children in our parents home, or we're trying to do exactly opposite of what we experience in our children's home, in our home, our homes as children. The hard part about that is that's completely unfair to my children because one, they were not me, they are not me. And I'm technically parenting from a place of child, of childhood. I'm parenting as a child as opposed to who the adult am I in? Who is, who is the adult in me? And how am I connecting? And more importantly, who is the Jesus in me that's connecting with my children that I want to speak truth. And that doesn't mean that it's absence of discipline that they get to run amok, any of those things. But at the end of the day, what do I desire, man? I desire three young men that love Jesus unconditionally, that they know they're loved unconditionally, that they can run to him, and there's a passionate love for them. And I want to be the person speaking that into their lives. I run into my pain when I feel like I'm not doing that. And I look at their behavior sometimes and think, why aren't they doing this? Or why are they doing that? What am I not doing? I'm battling within. But at the end of the day, what I desire is to speak truth in their life. And when I'm not speaking truth into their life, it's because something's going on in me, not what they're doing, it's what's going on in me. And so the joy of this process is being able to help parents, caregivers get to a place of you want to speak truth now, in discipline or in encouragement or admiration, you still want to speak truth into the life of your children. What's keeping you from doing that? What is keeping you from a place of being able to speak truth in the life of your child? We all know, right? It's your pain of what's going on. So where does that connect is we look at scripture, we look at all those different things about what the responsibility of parent is. What we see in Scripture where it talks about fathers, do not exacerbate your children.

Come on.

Do not exacerbate children. What is that? Why am I exacerbating my children? Likely because something's going in me. Why would I want to. As a father that is submitted to the Lord, why would I be in a place of speaking ill over my children? Because of what's going on in me and in the exacerbation of the children, what is it then? It may lead them to sin. Right? Sounds like a pain cycle to me of what I'm doing and feeding into my children is likely developing pain within them. But if I get regulated, if I get to a place of understanding who I am in the Lord, my words that are going to come out are going to be words of truth. They're going to be words of encouragement. They also may be words of discipline, but they're still done in love. So now I've created love, good, healthy identity in my children, and I've also created this sense of safety for them to become and know who they are in that process. And so at the end of the day, when parents can't do that, it's probably what's going on inside of myself. But because I'm not getting to the outcome that I would desire, and ultimately my desire as a follower of the Lord is to help speak truth in my children, help them guide in the way of the Lord. And when I'm not doing that is when I'm likely in my own pain.

Man, Michael, every day. Gosh. Damn good. Well.

You know, we. Lance, it made me. I'm curious for you because listening to Michael today, like, instead of you and I talking about, hey, what's. What are we learning in the room that we're really excited about? Like, I'm curious, is there something that Michael shared in his work that you're like, oh, okay. Like, I don't know. It was just helpful for you to think about. I need to put this into practice or. Because a lot of things that were said today, I'm like, oh, man, I'm taking notes over here. So, like, I'm just curious if something emerged in the conversation really for any of you. But Lance, I'm asking you. As Mike was talk. Michael. Michael was talking. If something jumped out at you, they're like, I gotta. I don't know. This is sticking with you.

Yeah. I think the big thing that I'm hearing from Michael, I mean a lot of things, but I think this permission, and this is what I love about anytime I hear you, Michael, is I find this new permission to. To rethink my therapy. Particularly, you know, I still remember you talking about, like, taking your kids. Like, you're like, oh, yeah, just grab and play basketball, go on hikes with them, take them out of the therapy room. Like, yeah, what. I thought I was stuck in that room. But I. I think what I'm finding is this new permission to how I engage the whole family at large. And I think I oftentimes will get frustrated with the family at large, but not do the work to engage the family at large. And I want to have more sonic moments with the parents that are. That are there. I. I want to. I want to get hypersonic, man. I want to get in there and. And really encourage these parents and to say, there's a better way, guys. You know, There's a better way. Maybe I'll grab a mirror too, and let them see how goofy they look.

Yeah.

What about you?

No, I. I think it's just a reminder to me because, you know, a lot of us were in our room all day. You know, we're not being observed by other colleagues and stuff. You know, I think that's why we like getting together with RT people. But it's a reminder me the importance of just being more experiential and not. It's easy to get comfortable and tired and pretty worn out as a therapist. And then, you know, sessions will go by and days will go by. And I think as I hear the work that you do with adolescence, it's just. I don't know, it's invigorating to think, here's some different things I can do. You know, I was thinking a lot about maybe just Reese. I work a lot of teenagers too. But I was thinking, you know, I need to. I need to. I need to write down for them their pain and peace cycle and not just talk about it. You know, there's this tendency, unlike other teenagers, they don't need more homework. They're busy, they'll lose it. I know I need to give something in their hands that they can go sometimes they'll write it in their phone actually in their notes section sometimes, too. But I don't know, I was just thinking, you know what? I'm going to try some different things with the teenagers I'm working with and with their parents that I haven't done recently. And that. That's exciting for me. You know, it's just. I think permission is a good word. It reminds me, oh, yeah, I can do this.

Yeah.

And I think with couples, too. I'm gonna sit back and watch a couple argue a little longer. I need to extend some of my sessions probably for that, but, yeah, it's just. It's exciting.

Terry, honestly, to me, I can't take any credit for that. Is. You know, you. We watched Terry work and he's like a magician, right? It's. It was that freedom of watch. I think we were at the anxiety deal in. In Georgia where he did a couple of demonstrations, and it was kind of like he's just. No, it's. It's from watching him to. To be able to train our level one. That's what it was. And just watching him in training, like, pull somebody up and just started working and just feeling the freedom of, like, I can use whatever I got in this moment to help them through that process. And I think the beauty of doing that with a teenager is you have to be more creative. Parent adults are kind of. We kind of get stuck in certain ways, but you have to get creative with a teenager to keep their attention to kind of make some things to stick. And I. And as you're saying, like, that just was it. I. I felt the freedom to not. It has to be this. This regimented way for it to happen. And there's this freedom of exploration that adolescence truly kind of help you remember that you can do that. Like, you have to do it with them, but they give you the permission to do it, too. Yeah.

Well, I know we're up against the hour, which, you know what that means for all of us therapists. We got some probably sessions or something going on. But, you know, Michael, we will. In our show notes or soon to be show notes, we will put any resources down that you recommend. I'll reach out to you. Just make sure a list of resources for parents adolescence. We're looking forward to this new book coming out here at some point as well. And super. I don't know. Yeah, I'm. I'm in. I'm in agreement with Lance. Anytime I talk to you, I'm like, excited, invigorated. So. And I don't know if you and I are carpooling. I don't think we're carpooling to the conference together. Are we? Maybe we will.

We talked about it, but we never.

We did talk about it. I don't. Yeah, it's been a crazy season, so we'll have to touch base. But thank you for coming on. Any closing words?

Lance, for you, man, I'm just thankful. I. I love this idea of being set free and I just finding yourself, like, I think that's one of the best things that Terry does for us is just. Just really finding yourself in the therapy room and flowing from that true place. Whether you're writing, whether you're helping others or you're working in your own marriage or with your own kids, that walking in the truth of who you really are. So powerful.

Yeah.

Yeah. And, Michael, just thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast today. And we look forward to more conversations with you for sure. On the podcast and in person. So take care, guys. Have a good day. See ya.