Season 1 | Episode 21 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Chuck Roberts

Going.

Lance, what's up, man?

Rhett, how are you doing today?

I'm good. I want to start by apologizing to everybody for our sound issues. Whatever's happening to us the last week, we apologize. Lance and I are working on this.

Yeah. You know, a world without Lance's voice, you know, or hard to hear Lance's voice. You know, I think it. It's like. It's very symbolic, like wanting my voice to be heard.

Yeah. You were in your pain cycle. Yeah. Learning that maybe the mic was failing on your part, but, you know, we're. We're figuring things out, so.

Yeah, as it turns out, it was my fault.

I don't.

I don't think so. I've gotten some own feedback of my own issues. So we're all in our pain cycle here, but, you know, the most important piece for us is to have people on this podcast that we can have conversations with.

That's right.

And we got a good one today with Chuck Roberts, who I. Well, you know, it turns out we met previously, but then I think the real meeting. Meeting was at the summit in Amarillo in February. And now we're part of an ongoing, every month, first Tuesday of the month, Texas, kind of zoom conversation and time that we like to connect with people in Texas. So we have Chuck, who is a therapist down in Dallas, been practicing for the last 25 plus years. So, Chuck, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks. Thanks for having me on. Been enjoying listening to you guys and your guests.

Well, I was going to say when we met, I think one of the things that we talked about briefly when I met your wife, too, is it was so good to meet everybody in person, and we just don't get the opportunity a lot. I think you and I were lamenting, you know, being solo practitioners in our own little private practices here in the DFW area can get pretty lonely at times.

Well, I actually do have a couple of good friends that I share office space with, but of course, busy schedules. Sometimes you can, like, go a day and not see one of them. And then other times where, you know, I got to have a visit with my friend Rick before I came in here and, you know, started this, so. But still my own solo practice, so, yeah, it can get lonely at times, for sure.

It's not like Lance, who's got his own, like, rt, the whole therapy center going over there in California.

Yeah, It's.

You know, when you got a whole crew of people, it's. It adds a whole nother dynamic into the realm of accountability. And you Know you can have like a, it's nice on a, on a bad, on a good day and then on a bad day when you're in your pain cycle and then you're, then your, your colleague asks you, you know, hey, are you in your pain cycle right now?

Not so good.

Well, I guess it's good. What did you say, Chuck?

Well, I was just gonna say actually. So I attend Irving Bible Church and I actually don't know if you recall this Rhett, but met you years ago. You spoke once to a class at Irving Bible Church on anxiety.

Yeah.

And actually I was thinking the other day, I still recall like one of the things you recommended then was the little Andrew Johnson apps anxiety. I still occasionally listen to those sleep app, that sort of thing. Anyway, yeah, that was the first place recall meeting you and it was good to have a chance to talk longer at the summit.

Yeah, there was a season where I was doing a lot, quite a bit of speaking at IBC in the youth ministry and anxiety pieces and some adoption tapestry ministry organization stuff they had. And I do still listen to him as well. Andrew Johnson is a British or Scottish I believe actually hypnotherapist by trade and he has these apps like probably like 40 something of them by now that help you through issues. And I listened to him before I was going to give a big talk one time his app was on public speaking and I listened to it for three weeks like he recommended and he's like it doesn't matter if you fall asleep while listening, it's still working in your subconscious. And I'm like yeah, yeah, yeah. I listened to that app for three weeks and I got up and spoke and was the most non anxious and the most fun conversation I ever had in my life. And then I started listening to his anti anxiety apps too and like emotional regulation and so I still recommend that tool. Andrew Johnson.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So you just listen to it and then the anxiety just drifts away.

You listen to him, he guides you through like a meditation kind of breathing practice and like thinking through things and reframing and I could never make it through an entire 40 minute meditation. I he'd start counting down from 10 and the last thing I remember is counting at 6 and I was out for the night. Wow. I still recommend them even though I know we have other tools in our tool belt with anxiety that we're using as well.

Yeah.

Does he do it with like a really nice Scottish accent?

He does sometimes I listen just for that, you know. Yeah, I hear that.

Yeah, it's better than yours, though, Lance. And it's more soothing. It goes.

Not like that.

Not like that Scottish.

I can imagine a voice more soothing than mine.

I'm talking about the accent there. Well, I know we're not on to talk about Andrew Johnson.

Sorry about that.

No, no, I just. You sent me down this path I could talk about forever because I actually think it's a really helpful tool. And we'll put that in the show notes. I. Let's just jump in at the entry point of rt, because I think that's always interesting is like, when did you come into rt, Chuck? What was. What was that experience and journey like for you?

Yeah, you know, I was thinking back about that. I recall, actually, and I don't know when this was. If it's 2013, 2014 sometime. Like, I heard there was, like, a Friday afternoon CEU class that Terry taught at Park City's Presbyterian. And I'm not even really sure. I might have been on families and forgiveness kind of a topic.

Oh, yeah.

I don't actually remember for sure, but I remember just, like, really being, like, captivated by him and thinking that, okay, this guy's pretty deep, you know? And then at some point, like, I don't know, I'd heard about the essential humility of marriage. And for a while, like, I looked online, it's like, okay, the copies of this book, they're saying, like, they're like 100 bucks for a hardback.

It's worth every penny, Chuck. It is worth every penny.

Well, since then, I found one for not quite so much money, but I do have. But actually it emailed him, and he said, well, I have actually I'd recommend a newer book. And it was his first Restoration Therapy book. And read that, and I thought, okay, this is. This is good. Then about 2015, I think, is when I. I went to the training.

Good.

So just level one at this point. Need to get the level two. But did the level one train with Terry and Webb Newton in 2015 was kind of the beginning point for me.

Cool.

What was it? I think Mike Bishop talked about this last week. Like, you catch it, he says, you catch the RT thing. And what was it when you were sitting there listening to him, either in that CEU or after you started to read rt the book, the Restoration Therapy book, Was there something that just jumped out at you? They're like, okay, yes, I really want to go down this path.

You know, I think what. What caught me. And I mean, in some ways, I'm a slow catcher, but it's like what caught me was I, I felt like I, I had some like good training in school in terms of like understanding kind of people and relationships. I studied at Colorado Christian University years ago under Dr. Larry Crabb, whose books I had admired for years and meant a ton to me. His books studied under him and felt like it was a good understanding again, like people and problems. But then I found myself kind of in the field and was like, wait a minute, I don't actually know how to sit with anybody. And I think it was the element of RT kind of that caught me of like, okay, this is a. Like it's really going somewhere. There's really a direction to this. Like there's kind of a plan. I think kind of with what I'd learned in my approach and you know, a very non directive kind of way and then just my own, my own personality or gifts. I think people feel pretty comfortable pretty quickly with me. Clients do very empathetic and can make people feel at ease in my office. But I think there's a sense of where I can fall back on that and rely on that too much in a way of. I'm not pushing against that totally. And so it can be like totally non directive. So it was just really with rt, like this is more directive in a way that could be really helpful. Like you have a plan for the session. It's like, you know, you're just more involved, more active and kind of guiding things. So I think that's what has stood out to me about it. And then recently even like maybe it was Ron Neal, your guest, talking about his idea of it as a discipleship model. And I thought, man, that really seems true. I really like that. So I think the things that caught me. But again, like with Terry, just that day at Park City, it was just presence, you know, really just something about him that drew me in. Like I want to know more about what this guy's doing.

I was, I was thinking, man, you kind of described me like I feel like I'm pretty. People come in, they feel really safe. I'm empathetic and I can rely on that. And if I use an enneagram language here of being a nine, a peacemaker, they talk about like falling asleep to yourself. I can just kind of be like non directive. And so I, I like how you said that I hadn't even really put language to that, that it gives you like a directive model to practice out of.

There's kind of a plan really for, for therapy in a way that I didn't really have before fellow nine year, by the way of, like, now I'm out, like, okay, I'm empathetic. People are feeling good. I can just sort of rest here. Yeah.

You guys can so.

Well, but I think, you know, sometimes experiencing. Okay, now we're a few sessions down the road, and I'm starting to feel. And I can sense that my clients are starting to feel like, okay, this has been good, and I feel safe, but what are we doing here? You know? And again, so that was, like, really an appeal of it. Like, this is a way to really be more directive, you know, I remember actually at the training, the level one training that I went to of Terry saying, you know, you need to be saying something every two and a half minutes or so. Like, if you go more than four minutes without saying something, the. You're not. I don't remember. You're not guiding the session. That's not really. You're not directing what's going on, and you really need to be. And I thought, man, I can go on for a lot longer than that of just hearing clients talk and empathizing and they're feeling good, but I'm not directing things.

Yeah. Especially in the beginning, it's so important to interrupt our clients. And it feels kind of rude when you do it. You know, it's like they're like, I'm trying to tell you something, you know, but, you know, the more that we interrupt, the more that we're actually getting down to the core of things instead of allowing it to the unraveling, like picking up the pieces of the unravel that happens. Yeah. It's very, very important to, you know, which is totally contra to classic therapy. You know, classic therapy says we make space, we hold. You keep on saying, what were you trying to say? Yeah, yeah.

And I think even to understand for the, you know, you know, to be able to say, let me see if I have this correctly, or did I hear that? You know, that.

Yeah.

I think to me, it probably the interruption feels more harsh than maybe it does to the client, you know.

Oh, yeah. I mean, the client. To us, it feels harsh, but to the client, they're always like, yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah. You know, because, you know, once they get on their little rants, you know, they've been saying these rants for their whole lives, so they're not really connecting the. The pieces as much. And until you're actually inviting them to.

Right.

Lance, do you think. Because before we hit record, we were all talking about rt, just questions about rt, and I'M I'm thinking. So Chuck and I didn't. We didn't go to grad school under Terry, Right. We didn't train under him. Like, but you. You trained under him. Like your initial entry into therapy, right. Was under him. So I guess I was just wondering if this idea that you just sit and don't direct as much, it's just pretty normal for therapy as a whole, unless you were trained under a certain specific type of therapy, you know?

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean that I. You know, and as a. As a person who's been in the field for a while, like, and watching a lot of video, it always baffles me because I've been. Because I was trained under Terry. It'll baffle me because I'll see therapists that will sit there quiet and say nothing for, like, 30 minutes while their clients just going on and on with a story. And I'm like, what is happening here? What is going on? You know, like, are you. Are you there? You know, I think, you know, I think that, like, watching what, like, once you've sat. When you sit, like, when you learn from, like, Terry, like, you. You have this frame of, like, what's right and what's wrong. Right? And in the therapy room and, you know, one of the things that he is constantly encouraging us to do is to say you have to be engaged with your client. And being engaged with just the empathetic listening is not true. Engagement. That's just, you know, just, you know, I don't know. I'm trying to think of, like, a key, like fluffing their ears or something. Like, you're not really just soothing.

Soothing them. Oh, it's co. It's co Regulation.

Yeah.

So. Yeah. And it's really crazy because, you know, when you are used to it, you know, it's. It makes sense. But, man, it can be hard, you know, for. For other people that are not used to that. So for those of you that haven't gotten to Senator Terry, interrupt your clients more, making sure you're getting. Am I getting this right? Hey, you just said this. Where does that connect to? Oh, is that the thing? You know, so you're always. Tell me more about where that comes from. You know, just kind of always trying to delve deeper into, you know, the four things we do in therapy, right. So that, you know, are we chasing pain here? Are we trying to understand that pain cycle? Are we trying to get to the truth? Are we trying to form that peace cycle? Or are we trying to work our four steps? I Mean, that's what we're always trying to do there.

How has that RT then Chuck informed your work and then where do you. I guess I'll add a second question. Where, like the continued growth areas for you, you know, because I know like, and you can talk more about some of the clients you like to work with, but I know you've talked about how the pain and peace talk has been really helpful, especially in the sex addiction like work you've been doing. But I also know that you've shared openly like just to continue, continue to learn the model and some of the rough edges you're working through. So kind of share about that.

Yeah, you know, well, I'm kind of lost during my thought of how to get at that. I mean again I think, and maybe I'm not sure I'm answering actually the question of like just the draw of thinking in terms of pain. I think I was familiar with thinking about that in some ways, not in terms of like calling a pain cycle, but what's pain? What's the pain that's driving this thing? And so it's just given a lot of other language to get at that. I think in terms of implementing, I think what I experience at times where I find myself, okay, now I'm not doing rt, kind of shifting back into old ways of doing things is it seems to me after 25 years of kind of doing it a particular way and a lot of listening is sometimes not as directive, sometimes it's easy to kind of slide back into that. And I think there can be a lot of things that contribute to that, but sliding back into a very non directive thing. And so really I think a lot of what I'm trying to get up to speed with now is just how to get more into the model and maybe especially with clients that I've been seeing for a while and haven't been using that approach and now wanting to do that more, I probably should back up and say like, part of what goes on for me is like, so I did the training in 2015, the level one training and it's like, man, this is really good stuff. This is who I want to be. But I think with sort of maybe shame at times or my own like fear, like, man, I'm about to see this client and they're struggling this way and I don't really know what in the world I'm doing. And like, so I, you know, part of my reading over the years, I love to read and I'm very interested in books, you know, spiritual Formation and counseling, enneagram kinds of books. But I also, like, a lot of that has been driven at times by like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh, I need to know more. I don't know enough. And so there's been the scrambling on my part of, like, I gotta read the next book. And so I'm reading about this other new therapy and then this other new thing, and then this other new thing, which unfortunately, like, didn't keep me really grounded in RT, the training in 2015. So there have been times, like, over the years, you know, where I've, you know, I just do all that scrambling, read these other things, and then it'd be like, oh, no, back to rt. That's where it's at. And picking that up again and reading my notes of training, reading Terry's books again. That's kind of a long, rambling answer. But I think the. But just, again, what I can slide out of actually doing rt, and then, you know, when I. When I haven't been doing that, I've got to find a way to get back in and really actually do that work with people.

Yeah, I think that's pretty fair. I think that's probably a big part of anybody's journey. Right. That, you know, particularly when you have a theory, when you have a model that you. That you're learning and you're working with a client and it's just not. It doesn't seem like the clients jiving well with it. And we, like, you know, we'll try a few different things, but then what ends up happening is we just kind of say, like, well, maybe this model doesn't work for you. Right.

Yeah.

And I think that it's like a natural thing to just try and switch out, to just go to the other thing, like, oh, let's just try this instead, you know, versus trying to. I think that the encouragement for those of you that might be getting tired of restoration therapy or like, like, maybe restoration therapy doesn't work in this realm, is like, sometimes we just got to slow it down and allow the work to work. I don't know if that makes sense. How would you put that, Rhett?

Ah, I don't know. I mean, I totally resonate with what Chuck is saying. Like, I found myself in those seasons too, where I'm, you know, I'm like, is this. Am I. Is it working? You know, and I'll. I'll look for the next shiny object to come in and that will fix it. I think it doesn't. I. Yeah. I mean, it's like, I guess that cliche phrase of just trust the process. Like, I've. I found myself more and more just, like, I believe in the model, and the more I'm around people who believe in it and I practice it and I'm in the community, I see more and more the value of it. And so I'm going to go in and just trust that this is going to take, you know, my clients to the place. And I've tried to be more upfront in the beginning, too, and, like, initial sessions of, like, here's. Here's how I tend to work, and here's what. I want to start our therapy process looking like it's going to take us a little time to, you know, I want to build some foundational pieces here, and I'll describe the pain and peace cycle and the four steps to them so that we're kind of all on board and that it takes some pressure off of me and them that we have to do some other kind of dance, you know, ahead of time. But, yeah, I guess it's. Lance. I don't. I'm rambling, but I guess it's just. It's requiring us to sit in our own anxiety as a therapist when we don't really know what the next step. Like, we know what it is, but we don't see it unfolding maybe as quickly as we would, like, in the way that we want it in front of us, tangibly, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. One thing I can definitely say, like, I think the summit, and I love the summit, and I definitely came away from there, like, this is it. Like, this is the. This is the model, and this is what I'm going to do. And, you know, I know you guys, I'm sure, like, me, get 10 emails a day about other trainings and other approaches, and it's like, I've done a lot better since the summit of, like, delete, delete, delete. This is. This is it. Like, this is. I don't need to be picking up all these other books. I'm going to learn RT and get comfortable doing this, you know, get away, Barry.

None of you ifs shoe.

I rebuke you. Yeah, yeah. Well, especially with ifs, right. Because it's kind of the new hot thing, you know, thousands of people waiting us to learn ifs, you know, But I think, oh, no, this is it. This is the one for me.

I mean, I think what I have found, and I. I know all of us are readers on this episode here, and a lot of people who are listening are readers. And I think it's super helpful to read broad and to read wide and to understand other people's perspectives, and especially in understanding what differentiates your work and model from what other people do, so I can speak honestly about it. Like, I think those are helpful conversation partners, but then to not get distracted and go down all those, like, trainings and modules, but to instead, like, say, yeah, now I better understand those models, and therefore, I'm going to dive even deeper into the RT model and, you know, read deeper, work with people, get on, like, our zoom calls that we have. Talk about the model, you know, because I'm laughing because I have, you know. No, I have Schwartz's book right here. No, no Bad Parts behind me. Right. And it's. It's a great book.

It is great.

Yeah. And it's. It's super helpful to understand. Um, but I've resisted the temptation to go down that. That road and conceptualize my work around that model. But I at least want to. You know, even when clients come in, I want to be able to say, here's, yeah, I understand why you like ifs, but here's what differentiates that model or this model or this model from RT and why I think RT is the best.

Yeah, I'm probably still going to enjoy reading some of those things and. And all that. I think maybe what's shifting for me, you know, if I've described it, like, for years, there's been sort of a. Almost like a franticness. I've. You know, I've got to get this. I've got. I've got to read about this, and then maybe this is the one. They'll finally help me figure out what to do. And I think I feel less of that now of, like, okay, those are interesting books, and I'll probably still read some of those, but I can. I can set that aside and focus on really doing RT and knowing that model and. And, yeah, just going forward with that.

It's awesome.

Like, to read. That's not going to change. But, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's kind of like there's a couple of philosophers I really like, and I. My goal is to kind of read all of their works, you know, but in my lifetime, and to really understand them, like, deeply. But I'm not going to only read them. But those are the two, you know, two or three that I'm, like, I'm going to go deep with. And I was thinking, you know, Lance, you're in a position, though, like, in your clinic and training People and supervising people. How do you answer this, this temptation that we all feel to wander to other places? And how do you keep someone on focus when you're supervising them or mentoring them?

I.

Well, first off, I always say we're called the Restoration Therapy center for a reason. So I, for me, it's, it's a, you know, I didn't call it lance all therapy. I, I called it restoration therapy because I believe in the model. So I, I always say nice for my, for my teammates. I'm always saying the weird part about working with me is that that's all I do. That's, that's how we flow. I mean, yeah, we have our applications. We use emdr. We, we do, we have, you know, we use neurofeedback. We have, we have other elements that we have in the practice. But when it comes to how we talk about our clients, how we work with our clients, we are always in that mindset of, um, you know, what is the pain and pee cycle? Because then when we transfer then, then we like refer back and forth with our clients. They're going to get the same thing. So that's really important, especially. Or if we're dialoguing. But yeah, I find some of my, you know, and I know my teammates aren't just using Restoration Therapy. You know, I know that, that they're going to, that they want to, you know, broaden and try different things, which, you know, I respect them for doing that. But we always kind of come back to talking in that realm. And I think the thing that makes the biggest difference is when the more we can apply it to ourselves, you know, like, this model is a, is very much a model of life, you know, and this is, this is the constant struggle that we live in of, you know, being in our pain and how do we deal with that. That's, that's one of those things that constantly comes up and the more that we can kind of slow it down and find, you know, I think the thing that keeps us in the game is finding new little sticky ways to kind of step into the peace cycle or understanding pain or trying to find. I think that's probably why I've gone super experiential in my therapeutic practice because it's, you know, I think the psycho educational bits gets really boring really quickly. But when we, when we go to the experiential stuff or we lean into the narrative elements, it makes, I think it keeps it more interesting. I don't know.

Yeah.

Chuck, for you, as you continue to work on this model and come back to it. Who are the people or what are the presenting issues that you love to work with?

Yeah, I really love when people come in. You know, it's like, hey, I'm sometimes not a specific issue. Like, I just want to figure some things out about my life. I'm not living as free as I want or get caught up in anxiety, that sort of thing. And where it feels like there's an aspect of like what they're really looking for in some ways is spiritual direction counseling. But spiritual direction in some ways just figured out kind of what's, what's broken. So I, I don't get, you know, it's not, that's not probably the weight of like the presenting problems that I see. But I really enjoy when folks come in. Like there's, there's not a particular thing, but I just know I'm not living as free as I want to live and, and want to figure out some things about my life. So I really like that. I do a lot of work with, with men struggling with sex addiction that's just seemed to have, you know, increased more in recent years. I go up to Colorado a couple times a year and work in an intensive staff counselor for Michael Cusick, who's written a little bit on the, the subject of sex addiction. And we do intensives up there. But that's probably contributed in some ways to. I'm just seeing a lot more men who come in really struggling and I really love doing that work. That's also a significant part of who I see. And then marriage counseling is also really big.

What do you love about intensives? I know Lance does intensives. I've done intensives over the years. You do. What is it about that intensive model working with men that you really love or you think that really is helpful?

Yeah, you know, I think there's something about that idea of like, you know, we do these in Monument, Colorado, Colorado Springs area. And just the idea that I think especially with an off site intensive, I really don't do as many like in my office, although I'm open to that. But there's something about, I think guys flying in or driving into a specific location where they're like really focused, you know. And of course, you know, some guys are coming in. I mean, we have guys all across the spectrum, some who've found freedom are not struggling to the same degree as they were, but still want to do an intensive and find a. Figure out more about their heart and living from the heart, and other guys who may have Acted out in some way that day before they got to the intensive. But then they're there at the intensive, and it's just a really focused time. Long days, but really, really a focused time of like, I'm here to do this work, and this is the only thing that I'm focused on. I really like that focus. I think you can get in and really do some deep work in that space.

It's so crucial to be able to just, like, focus in on the goal. What is your. Like, how many guys will you have in the room?

So there's usually like 30 men who come in. So in the big group. So in the bigger. And we have, like, there may be 23 or so staff, not. Not all counseling staff, but we have. We'll have. Michael brings in, like, a group of guys, some of whom were, you know, past attenders themselves, who come in actually, you know, pay their own way, come in and actually set up the rooms, you know, pray for the men. When we're in large group or small group sessions. So 30 men at a time. So at any given time, there may be like, you know, over 50 people in the room, but 30 men specifically, who are there to do this work in some big group time. And then we break up into other smaller group times with usually five men to a group with a couple of co leaders with some really specific focus time there too. Of sometimes it's just digging into a deeper way of what was talked about in the larger group setting. But it just really gives a focus.

That's awesome. Where do you see breakthrough happening in these moments for the guys that are struggling with this?

Yeah. I think one of the things we do is a trauma egg.

Okay.

Which is just sort of the way visually, with some pictures and words kind of telling their life story.

And I think.

That'S usually eye opening for a lot of guys, especially on the, you know, the level of like. Yeah, I mean, this. This thing that happened when I was eight. I mean, that's. That's not really a big deal. And everybody else in the room is like, are you kidding me? Like, that's a.

It's normal. Doesn't everybody deal with that?

Didn't that happen to everybody?

Yeah. So explain to everybody what a trauma egg is for a picture of it.

But it's a. You take a large sheet of, like, art paper, and you draw, like, an oval shape, like an egg in the middle of that. And then on the outside corners, outside the egg, one corner is for family rules. You know, just the idea. Every family has some Spoken and unspoken rules about how life has done in this family. Like we don't talk about our problems or you know, we are a hard working family, that sort of thing. Family or we keep secrets and then family roles is the other top corner. And you could think about every one of the family, but we're just looking for a guy and what the specific role they felt like they played in the family. Like some guys may have felt like they had to be the comedian to keep things light hearted in the family or they had to be the overachiever in some way. And then bottom corners outside the egg are just mom and dad or mom, stepdad, whoever the significant authority figures were and just some adjectives to describe each one. And then we just have it like in the bottom of the egg. They just start drawing these little pictures that depict a particular story.

Like from their life.

From their life. Yeah, yeah.

This is the time I got beat up.

This is the time school bus or. Yeah. Left off the team. You know that, that sort of. And some of those will be like, like the lower T traumas that guys may tend to think, oh that's no big deal. But you add a lot of those things together and they, they, they add up. So it's just, yeah. Building up through the lifespan of early memories. Things that felt really significant, that contributed to who I am now and how I struggle. So that's I think significant for guys when they see that. And then we always do a piece pretty quickly after that really, really addressing shame and kind of the lies that we believe. So I, I think those are really when things begin to shift for, for guys.

Yeah, I think that's such a powerful tool specifically around like helping people to develop their pain cycles. You know, like that if you have somebody's trauma egg, they, they do the same thing at Faithful and True where they have this, you know, they have the, you know, the top two on the. So you have this egg drawing on the, on the top right. You have, you know, here's, here's the rules of the family. On the top left. Here's my role in the family. And then you got on the bottom, you know, the mom and dad. And it's so great because like you, you get, you know, you got your characters, you got your kind of your, your, your like the world that you're living in and how you delve into it and then, and you have each little story and each of those stories, you're, if you're, if you're doing painted piece like it's like it's so easy to nail down. A lot of paint stories right there.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. You really can.

This is the Restoring the Soul weekend you're referring to.

It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And how many years you been doing that?

Really solidly since. Since 2018. I went to the first two that helped with Michael and into 2012 and one in 2013 and then wasn't part of it for a while. My daughter was young and all that and just, you know.

Yeah.

But went back in like May of 2018. Been doing them pretty regular since then, except the one I missed for Covid, but. But yeah, seven years.

You're speaking of that which. The Hideaway Marriage intensive. I think one of their core principles, and I think Lance has. This is one of his core principles in terms of anxiety intensives is this idea that we we intentionally sequester people away to like, do the work.

Yeah.

Which is just. I can't say enough about that. When you are pulled away to just focus on the work that you're there to do. How powerful those intensive models are for people. Whether there's 30 people in a room or six people in a room. It's so life changing and the unified.

Task, like, we're all here to get better. We're so sick and tired of how our unhealthy sexual activity has affected our lives and our people around us. Let's. And we're all joined in that common goal to stop it.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That makes a huge difference to guys who come in and feel not quite as alone by the end. And I always tell, like, you know, I think I'll have at various times clients of mine attending or trying to talk them into attending. And I always say, like, one promise I'm not making. Like, I'm not saying you'll go to this intensive and you're never going to struggle again. Like, that would be a foolish promise.

Right.

But I think you can find significant help. But I always say, like, the thing I think I can promise is that you'll come away not feeling as alone as you felt before and, you know, joined by other people. You'll come away with a group of guys and some of those guys, you know, stay in contact with each other for a long time afterwards. Yeah.

That'S a, that's a huge promise. Which I agree with you. Probably does happen for everybody and. But what a beautiful thing to know that we're not alone.

Oh, absolutely.

I, you know, I'm so behind me on my shelf here, one of the books that I.

I Don't know. It's.

Oh, yeah. Larry Crab, the Silence of Adam.

Yeah.

Which I think they've rewritten into the Men of Courage, I think.

Right.

And I read this book, and I was so profoundly blown away by some of the concepts which made me just understand not only my own journey, but, like, having a son. I just saw things completely different and how I, like, communicated and thought about things. And you said you studied under him, correct?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, we'll get to a Terry story in a minute, but is there any Larry Crabb stories that jump out at you, or do you remember a moment in the classroom or studying under him where something he said, like, profoundly impacted you that shaped your thinking today? This is because he said this thing, and I can't stop thinking about it.

Well, something he said that I think about a lot and often find myself saying this to clients as well, who really struggle with the idea of being known. You know, it's like, oh, no, no, no, keep it. I can't let anybody know who I really am or how I'm struggling. He told the story in class one time of being at a. Some sort of. It might have been like a spiritual formation, sort of a conference. And he was friends with. Also close friends with Brennan Manning.

Oh, nice.

He talked about getting off the elevator and the lobby is just full of people, like, getting off the elevator, people there for this convention. And he said Brandon was a fairly short man. And he said Brandon saw him get off the elevator. And Brandon starts jumping up and down like, Larry, Larry, Larry. Just happy to see him. But I remember Larry telling that story in class and saying, we all want to have that experience of somebody jumping up and down for us, enjoy to see us, but it doesn't mean anything until they know all the reasons they shouldn't. Which, I mean, to me, like to hear that and like to pass on to clients, like, the idea of being known can feel like the scariest thing. But then to open yourself up to expose something that's brought shame and then to experience love, full acceptance in that, I mean, that's just. That's profound.

Wow.

And that's the opportunity that awaits us if we open up. So I use that story a lot, but, you know, it means a lot to me. That's, you know, the thing in class that stands out the most, you know, But I think I also had that experience, like, you know, reading his book inside out in 1988. I think that's when it came out. It was. It was just after Suzanne and I got Married. But I remember reading Inside Out. I'd read a few. A few other things by Larry at that point, and reading. And, you know, he's just very revealing. He's willing to talk about his stuff. And I remember reading that book. I've had the experience of talking to others since then who had the same experience reading the book and thinking, okay, I thought I was the only one who struggled this way. I thought I was the only one who had dark thoughts at times that, like, where in the world did that come from? That seemed to bring so much shame. And like, here's a guy talking about it in a book, and it just kind of sealed it for me. Like, man, if I ever do this work, I want to study under. Under him. Yeah. And just the idea of being known how powerful that is. Because if we don't risk that, then we always have to question, am I really loved? There's still always going to be an element of like, yeah, but if only. If they only knew this thing, you know, they wouldn't love and accept me.

Yeah.

No, it's a good story.

Like, jump. You know, Larry.

Larry.

My sense of Larry Crab too, you know, and I could, you know, this is. My sense is that he was really, I think, one of the first, especially, like, in evangelical circles to do, I think, a really good job of integration, like. Like deep theological work, but also, like, deep psychological work and put those pieces together, I think, in a really, like, meaningful way, you know, and there were. Could point to other Catholic writers or people outside the evangelical fold who were doing that for a long time. But I think he. Because I remember his books appearing in, like, my own Bible church and people, like, really like, leaning on them. And I mean, I remember getting that book, Connecting, I think it was called from my dad when I was, like, in college.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So I would imagine you sitting under him had a profound impact on you. And it's such a beautiful story.

Yeah. And you mentioned connecting. It's like, I've talked to others who studied at various times under. Under Larry. One of the things I appreciated about him, he was always thinking, always, like, exploring and trying to integrate and thinking about, you know, his own life and what's the best way to do this work, but talking to other people who sat in different years and was like, you. You were the year he wrote Silence of the Adam. So you got lots of thoughts about that sort of thing. I. I was there. His connecting year when he had just. He was just finishing up connecting and getting that off to the. To the publisher. So we were the connecting class.

My. So I'm going to. In the future when I write my. My year with Terry is going to be my memory of him with his notepad sitting in the back of the hideaway. Why Tanner and I are doing our first pilot anxiety intensive, and Terry is furiously taking notes, like, for hours. Like, hours. And he disappears. And he went and photocopied three these, like, line paper, photocopied his notes, and we were going to insert this intervention into like, like the afternoon, which we had never talked about, really. He was going to tell us on break about it, but it was the whole stop turn slow, you know, and so like that. Just as someone who's always working on their craft and learning things and open, you know, and observing and like, oh, I'm watching these guys. What if we did this? That's going to be like, my. That's a good. That's my memory. Terry with his notes. I'm sure we've all. Lance, you've probably seen him doing that, like, furiously taking notes. And you're like, you're like, some magic's gonna come out of this moment here.

Yeah.

When you see it, when you see the. The stuff going on in the brain, it's all coming, like the things are coming together and you're like, oh, boy, oh, boy, here it comes.

So I wanted to ask you then, because, you know, you sat in the cu, Terry. And then you. And then you. You sent him an email and he responded to you, which I love because he's accessible. Is there any, like, Terry story you have, like, something that stood out to you that you're like, this is also why I want to get into this model or conversation you had with him.

You know what I recall? Like, there was such a draw, like, at the. At the training, there was a part where I don't think he. He told his whole story, but he told a little bit of like a. A snippet from his just personal growing up story. And he. It was just the awareness of, like, this guy's done a lot of work just personally about his own story. And that's always a draw because I've certainly had the experience at times where it feels like, okay, this person has a really good theory, but I'm not sure how touched they are by themselves or what they've done. And there was just, again, I think a lot of it's just presence with Terry, but just, again, sharing his history. That was the thing I was especially drawn to. This guy has done some work around his story, like, this is not just some theory he arrived at reading books. And maybe if I put this other twist on it, I can go this direction. Like, it came out of his own pain and suffering. Seen to me. Yeah. Just really drawn to that.

Hence the importance that we're always encouraged, I think, in this community to make sure we're doing our own work, which.

I came away, like, from the summit, like, okay, you gotta do more of your own work. If you don't get a better understanding of your own pain cycle. Again, I've read and, you know, thought about my story for a number of years, but to actually, actually, you know, to take this book, the Five Days, you know.

Yeah. Actually has the book Five Days to a New Self in his hand right now.

Yeah. And to actually, like, get more specific, like, I. I've got to do a lot more of this on my own, you know, that's just what I have to do. I can't do. Do this with other people until I'm really deeply into that. In one sense, I've completed the book, and in one sense, I'm just beginning. Just, like, there's more to go back through and understand. This is what I do in pain. And incorporating the Humility shift exercise. I'm trying to do a lot of just, like, man, do your own work.

Yeah.

Doing your own work. That's. That's kind of the way.

Yeah. The humility shift. That's. They do a really good job with it. In Mindful Marriage.

Yeah.

Where they kind of work through all those elements of, like, this nice prayer design that really. Was that Terry or Ron or who? I think they both did it together. It was good stuff.

Yeah. I don't know. It's definitely good. I thought maybe there's more. Terry. I wasn't sure, but, you know, it's good stuff.

Try to think about which one of them is more humble, Ron or Terry.

I'll try to give them an award. And whoever accepts the ward is released humble.

Is there. I don't know. Sometimes we. At this point in the episode, we talk about intervention, which I think we want to hear about. But I guess I'm also wondering about. Just because it sounds like you're continuing to learn and grow with rt. Is there an area of RT you're, like, really trying to lean into right now just to better understand its depth, maybe where you find yourself feeling stuck or it's like a growing edge for you.

Interventions. Yeah. Like, okay, really learning those, but also, you know, I mean, having the guts to try them. Something like, the whole idea of, like, standing up when you don't know what you're doing is like, no, I need to have this really thought out and planned and exactly. Exactly where. So it has been good, you know, a few times. I need to do a whole lot more of it, but trying to do more about. About learning interventions, you know, and, like, you know, sitting in Tanner's.

Yeah.

Class at the. At the. At the summit, it was like. I mean, he's. He's like the intervention king. I think, folks, if I can just get my mind around a couple of those, that would be. That would be.

Yeah, we're gonna get Tanner on here. He's. He's coming up in.

Yeah, it's.

It's the Tanner special.

Yeah.

But he's like. He's like a magician in that. In that. In the session you're referring to, it felt like just pulling one thing out of his bag after another.

And I'm back here, like, what was this other one? I'm trying to figure. Yeah, but it was good stuff. But I think it's like interventions. But then also for me, since I've mentioned it before, I think, you know, even again, done a lot of work around shame, but it still gets in the way. That's still the thing that gets in the way of, like, standing up in the room or trying this thing. But I think at times, maybe there's more of an EMDR thing, but some of the body soothing sort of things. I think a lot of men who act out, like, what they're really missing is the attachment need of seeing soothed and safe, building blocks of a secure attachment. And so doing. Trying to teach soothing sort of exercises we'll do in sessions sometimes.

Do you have a soothing exercise you like to do right now or that you're thinking about, like, practicing in session with, like, a client that you're describing.

Yeah. So it's just the idea of, like, picturing in your mind like a. Like a peaceful place. Maybe close your eyes and peaceful and picture in your mind just a peaceful place, kind of a peaceful setting. Beach or mountains or some other peaceful setting. Or if you can connect with the idea the truth that I'm really loved by God and safe with him. And in that moment, as you're holding that, you know, to do, like, the body soothing. I tend to do this one more. Just hand slowly over the heart area or like, the butterfly tapping. I think maybe that one comes from EMDR trying to teach that to guys a lot, because I find, again, that's what's lacking for a lot of men who struggle with sex addiction.

Lance is this. So he's showing if people aren't watching video. Right. Is rubbing his hand kind of around across his chest. And it reminds me of our conversation with Michael Pachucco about like, yeah, this thing. Well, not being a head thinking thing, but this like felt, body embodied, like soothing experience. I don't. I don't know if that's what you're getting at, Chuck. I just, it made me think of that and I was wondering if you could. Because you're doing that with a client. What are you hoping?

Like hoping eventually there's just a deeper sense of. Well, I mean, come back to the word soothing, but sense of the body being soothed, caring for yourself, like a real self care kind of a thing. And one of the things I always tell guys is like, it's not going to be like the first time or two that you do this. That it can be like, oh my gosh, that works. That's magic. I say you may have to try it seven or eight times before you really sense any real soothing from that. Or at least it was that way for me. So give it a while. But I just hope there's a deep sense of caring for the body, soothing the body, bringing the body to a place of rest that can maybe lower somewhat. Dysregulation that when that's raging, tends to find its release in some way of like sexual acting out.

Totally. I. The thing I love about that model and for those of you that are like getting trying, having a hard time with truth, work with your clients. This, this is one of the things I've seen Terry do it a lot recently. For the past few, probably like three years, he's been like, really? First he was getting us to do a lot of stances. Like he'd have us like stand up like Superman pose, do all these different things. Put your hands on your. On your hips and like stand up straight, you know, kind of like this, you know, with your hands right here or like offering your arms up like this. You know, he'd have us take all the different stances. But one of the things I've seen him been doing and the therapy has been, okay, you know, one of the big things with truth or because we want to do repetition, right? So one of the repetition things, he'll. He'll say, okay, say it again, but this time put your hand on your.

Heart.

And say it again. And I think one of the things I've noticed my clients doing and this is why I would really recommend this. You know, using this truth part is you have created a new. A new shortcut for your client, because they don't have to. They can remember the experience. And you can say, okay, next time you're spinning out and you want to. And you want to act out before you do it, I just want you to put your hand on your heart real quick.

Yeah.

And then that truth is imbued in their hands as their hand is like, being placed on their heart. So I think there's. There's this, like, um. So this is why body work is. It's like a shortcut mechanism that. That we can do. And I like the fact that, you know, doing the circular pattern of, like, you know, that's.

That's a.

You know, I. I remember, like, with my daughter when she'd be struggling and crying, you know, you know, you just slowly do the little circles on the back, and all of a sudden, you.

Know.

Moment of, like, feeling better happens.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's a great intervention, Chuck.

That.

Yeah, that thing you just did, too, Lance, that's like the psychological s. Physiological siren there. That. The devil in hell kind of, you know, that. That Huberman describes children doing when they're upset.

I'm teaching that one a lot more, too, and doing it myself.

Like, the physiological side.

That's transformative. I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Truth. I did it before I got on here today. It's like, oh, good, A little anxiety. Do the phys. Physiological side. That's. That's, you know, that's good stuff.

Yeah. Well, Chuck, we're. We're kind of.

We're.

We're coming to the place of Land in the plane. You know, I think, you know, one of our big audiences, you know, is hopefully therapist.

You know, do we have a big audience, Lance? One of our big audiences.

You're always safe when you're thinking percentages, like your percentage of people.

Okay.

So the big percentage of our audience is therapist. And, you know, you've gotten to listen to us a few times, and I feel like all therapists have something really good that they can kind of add on to people's life. What would be something that you'd want to kind of. As we're kind of closing out here to share to our brothers and sisters and the healing work.

Actually have this book here that is by Renovari. So I'm holding my book from Renovare, which they. I order these and give these to clients, but they are actually. I could send a link. There's Actually a link to a PDF that they just make available for. For free online. But there's an exercise, it starts with a show.

The book real quick is called Learning.

To Hear God and two listening exercises. It's a renovari resource.

Yeah, Renovari r E N O V R A E is like famous with Richard Foster and Dallas Willard. Yeah, like lot of in depth spiritual formation.

Yeah. And it starts with just a brief article from Dallas Willard. But then there's the first of the exercises in the book is by Trevor Hudson, who he, Dallas Willard mentored, is good, great South African man who's done some really great work. And he does this what he calls beloved charter. Writing your beloved charter and it's something like it. I think it can be really helpful in terms of understanding what's true in terms of how am I seen by God. And I've actually incorporated that into my own personal work that I do with the humility shift exercise of when it gets that section about truth from God. Just what's my own. What have I heard from God in terms of that beloved charter? Just really thoroughly scripture based of like, you know, what's true about me and how God sees me. That I don't know. I wanted to toss that out there. I think it's a. It's. No, I.

So let me ask you, when you say beloved charter, do you have clients actually write like a charter to themselves, like around their sense of belovedness and.

Yeah.

Being the beloved.

Absolutely. Yeah. So I'll send this with, with clients and ask them to, you know, read this and spend a lot of time. I'll tell them, you know, it may take you, it may take you a while. I think I probably spent several weeks of like looking at that first exercise and reading verses and thinking through and you know, and I think to it like at times I may write another one, you know, that may shift and change a little. But I do. Yeah. Give it to clients and ask them to, you know, do some work around truth in this beloved chart or how you're seen by God. Because I think there's an element of like the idea of change can be really scary. Being exposed can be really terrifying to us. But if we can get a sense in there of like, I'm safe with God and I'm beginning to get a sense of like, I'm really loved by him. Then I can look at all the worst parts of myself, all the, all the things that I do that I wish I didn't do. The ways I hurt other people, but also the good things as well. I can look at those things knowing, okay, I'm loved. I'm one of the beloved and in that place I'm safe to look at this stuff. Maybe I can look at my pain cycle and own. And that's what I do because I know I'm loved.

I, I, I looked it up too, just, you know, while we were talking. But yeah, it's so nice. It just, it can download the PDF right there from their website.

Yeah.

And it feels too when you to bring it back full circle. I mean, I'm in your camp, Chuck. I'm learning to be more experienced in the room and be. I feel like I'm pretty directed, but I think I need to be more experientially directive. But I also like clients. I like to be directed outside of session and I think sending them home, if you have to help them in the session a little bit, even get the ball rolling. But I think I found it so helpful for clients that go home and to have a task to do and to give them a beloved charter. I really, I'm going to use that because some, you know, to get to your truth can be very complicated process. And I feel like this is such a cool, handy tool that renovare has made available for free.

It's good stuff. Yeah. And it's free. Yeah, yeah.

It will be on the show. Notes.

Yeah, yeah. See this is, there's things I, we just, this is why it's good to have you on. There's, we all tread in different, different communities and territories outside of rt and there's so many good resources out there.

Yeah.

You know.

Oh, man, Chuck, you're such a gift man. Thank you for sharing that wonderful piece. And just your, your work for the healing of people is just so such a, a blessing and you know, just really appreciate you being here today.

Oh, thank you. And thank you guys. I mean, I really have loved listening to the rt, the dialogue podcast. I mean, it's, I, I just love the way you guys do it. So I really enjoy listening, so hope more people are listening.

Yeah.

Well, now we got Chuck Roberts on here. It's going to be next level.

Yeah, it's gonna go, I'm gonna go viral here. You know, in all honesty, to me, it's like getting over coffee with a friend. Like if I can just get on a conversation with people.

Totally.

Whether anyone is listening to that or not, I honestly don't care. To me, it's like edifying for me and learning my own growth. So this is why we do it. And it's good to connect the dots. And, you know, our goal is that by the 2027 summit, we're not. There's more people who don't feel like a stranger. And, like, you walk in and there's Chuck jumping up and down saying, yeah, hey, hey, Rhett.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

All right, well, thanks for coming on, everyone. Have a good day today.

Cheers.

All right, take care.

Bye. Bye. Bye.