In this podcast episode, therapist Dr. Tanner Hargrove walks listeners through his second therapeutic intervention, a hands‑on exercise that uses paired heart‑shaped pillows (or any similar objects) to illustrate personal responsibility for one’s emotional state within a marriage. The intervention begins by giving each partner a pillow that symbolises their own heart. Participants are prompted to recall what they did with their heart on their wedding day, often leading them to exchange pillows, which mirrors the common marital belief of “giving one’s heart to the spouse.” Tanner then asks each partner to demonstrate how their heart behaves during their pain cycle (anger, withdrawal, etc.) and during their peace cycle, highlighting that when they hand over their heart they lose control over it, potentially hurting the other. The therapist emphasizes that each individual must retain ownership of their own heart, regulate their own pain, and only then re‑engage with the partner from a place of peace. Practical tips include using objects that are nearly identical but slightly different in color or texture to avoid confusion, and being flexible with the setup (e.g., using tissue‑box covers or books). The conversation also touches on the counter‑cultural nature of this idea, the importance of novelty and metaphor in therapy, and the therapist’s role as a “co‑regulation police.” The episode ends with a light‑hearted reminder to purchase heart pillows from Amazon.
Chapters
Okay, intervention number two. We just finished the Destructive entitlement.
We gotta call this, like, a segment like Tanner's Bag of tricks.
Green.
Tanner tries.
Terrific tactics.
Time tactics. Yes. Maybe we'll make it short.
That's good. Yeah. And fewer teas, maybe, but. Or more teas. I don't know. Yeah.
So we're going with our theme here is creativity, metaphor, and novelty. Those are, like, the big things we're doing. Novelty, you know, for those of you, like, that's where you're. Anything new, the brain gets really excited about. So that's why we like novelty. Metaphor is something that we can see, that we can connect with, and creativity is just, you know, thinking outside the box.
So what we got, Tanner, the next one is to emphasize this idea of personal responsibility specifically. Oh, man. Specifically. This happens a lot with couples where they start talking about how they don't feel like their needs are being met, and then as a result, they almost rationalize why their pain or their pain cycle is justifiable or reasonable. And so oftentimes, when I see that dynamic kind of pop up, one of the things I do is I grab. I found these hearts on Amazon. They're pillows. They're literally, like, cushy. I've learned because I've kind of experimented with this over the last few years. It's really important that a couple of things with this particular supply are in place. Number one is they need to be similar, right? So these are the exact same size. They're the exact same texture. They're the exact same consistency, but they're different. So they're different colors.
So we're seeing pillow hearts here.
They're just pillow hearts. I think they were 11 bucks on Amazon because what I did, you can kind of see on my couch. Like, I have some pillows that are the same or that are different. And so one of the things that would happen when I did this before is it didn't really click because they started noticing the differences in the hearts or differences in the object that I was using. And it kind of threw the intervention off course a little bit, because then it became about, well, his is bigger or hers is not as intricate as mine or the point. That's not what we're supposed to.
His heart is dark.
Right. And so I tried to. It's been much more smooth with things that are close in similarity enough across the board. But one of the things that I'll do is I'll give each partner a pillow or a heart, and I'll tell them that your heart represents who you are, and your actual love or connection in the marriage. And then I ask them, on the day that you got married, what did you do with your heart? And most people, I can't. There's a few times that this won't happen. We can talk about what happens when that takes a place, but usually what people do is they'll switch. So, like, the husband will give his wife his heart, and the wife will give the husband her heart. Because that's a really common thing that couples think happen, right? So when I get married, I'm giving you my heart. And if they don't do that, or if they look at you like, what are you talking about? I didn't do anything with my heart. Then you kind of have to prompt them, like, okay, so, like, when you got married, like, how did you think this was going to work? Or what did you think ended up happening? Or when you get caught in this dynamic, right, where you feel like your needs aren't being met or you feel like you're justified in acting the way you do, where is your heart in the midst of that, right? And that's usually. You can usually get them to kind of exchange. Now at that point, what I start talking to them about is, now I'll say, now you've just switched hearts. Very normal, right? I might even say, yeah, that's kind of what we expect, that when we get married, we give our heart to our spouse. And then I'll look at them and I'll say, I want you to show me what happens to the heart you're holding when you get in your pain. And they'll be like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, on your pain cycle, it says that when you start to feel unloved, one of the things you do is you kind of get angry. So when you get angry, show me what happens to that heart. And they'll be like, they're holding the other person's heart. They don't have their heart. And so they'll just, like. They'll, like, hit it. Or they'll be like, you know, I just. Whatever. I'm like, that's not what you do. Like, I kind of, like, emphasize the intensity of their pain cycle. Or they might say they withdraw. So I'll make them, like, put it behind their back or I run away. So I'll have them actually get up and move to another side of the room. I'm really just kind of getting them to show, like, what happens when you're in your pain. And what I emphasize is A couple of things take place. Number one is you forget you don't have your heart because you just gave your heart to your spouse. So what you're doing is not hurting you, it's hurting them. And so then. Well, is that. Yeah. So then we talk about, is that. Is that really your intention is to hurt your spouse? And they'll say, no, that's not my intention. It's okay, so show me what your intention is or what you think needs to happen. And they'll kind of like stare at you and stare at each other. And then they'll be like, I'm like, yeah, so get your heart back. Right? Like, I'll talk to them about getting their heart back. And so then they'll say something along the lines of, so I'm just not ever supposed to connect or reach out and have my spouse's heart in mind. And I'll say, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that by you regulating your pain cycle and getting into your peace, you take care of your heart. But then show me now that you've got your heart back, what you do when you're in your peace. And then they'll reach out and they might, like, pet the other person's heart or they might, like, hug the other person's heart. And what will happen is they'll start trying to do like that, well, I like to hug her heart. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Do not let go of your heart. Don't let go of your heart. Your heart is your responsibility. So even if your husband is loving it in his piece, you've still got responsibility for your heart. And let's say he maybe gets in his pain. So while he's hugging it, he squeezes really tight. So what you need to do is what? And then she'll say, well, I need to get my heart back into a good place. I'll say, exactly. That's what we do. And then we can re engage out of our peace so that we've still got control and responsibility for our heart, but we're also able to connect when we're in that place of truth and peace. So it just kind of drives home the idea, like, listen, you're still responsible. Ultimate responsibility to be in your truth is up to you. It also means that in your truth, you act differently, which is connecting and unifying and doing those things that you want to be able to do regardless.
Do you, like, just question here. Do you keep those hip pillow hearts, heart pillows out like on the couch and open? Or are those things you, like, whip out of the closet when the intervention is like, ta da.
They. I don't have a closet in my office. So they just said, I've got this window seal next to my window, and that's. They just kind of sit over in the corner.
Okay. So they're there. Do you think it's important to have heart shaped pillows for this intervention or just something that's similar? Very similar.
Maybe just something very similar. Right? Like we. I've used, like, the tissue box covers before. You could use books that are similar. Ish enough. You could use any, literally anything around your office. The catch is again, to pay attention, make sure they're as similar but also a little bit different as possible. Because if these were the same, because I've tried it once before where I ordered two hearts and they were the same color, it didn't work because then we couldn't remember whose heart was whose. And it was like, no, I just botched all that. And so just kind of making sure that they're similar enough, but also different enough to. Yeah.
So, okay. I saw you do this intervention. The first time I tried this intervention out, I messed up the setup question somehow because I. I had them sitting down and. And I had my two heart, you know. You know, metaphors in front of them that they were each holding. I said, and, guys, what happens on your wedding day with your hearts? And they. They both went like this. They both grabbed their hearts and they go. And I had them, like, touching one another. And I was like, you're not doing it the way Tanner did it. I was like, well, that's good. So. So, Tanner, help me out, because I screwed up the intervention somehow. I think it was the setup question, but it was like, so sweet because they had the two hearts and they were just like touching their little heart pillows together. So what would you do with that?
So I would really make sure that again, there's lots of flexibility here. So you could roll with that on some levels. And you could even make the argument like, okay, so that's what happened on your wedding day. Like, pivot, right? So that's what happened on your wedding day. Now, you've been married for eight years now. Show me what's happened to your hearts. Right? You could go in that direction. You could say, hey, look, I want you to grab a heart. I want you to tell me, when you get in your pain, what does your heart do? You could have the conversation when you're in your piece. What does your heart look like when you're in your peace, the thing to pay, the big thing is this idea of like I'm giving my heart away because I tend to think that that's a little irresponsible and I don't think that that's reasonable. Right. We don't, we don't want them to get in the idea that I am relinquishing my heart to your care. Because part of what I emphasize is, listen, like your spouse is a great individual, but your spouse is not 100% trustworthy at all, ever. And so you don't want to relinquish your responsibility to your spouse who is maybe going to hurt it and has hurt it and will continue to hurt it. So we want you to be able to mend it yourself and tend to it yourself, but then also be able to extend it and engage with it outside of and in your piece and out of your peace actions.
I gotta say, like, if I'm sitting in session with you and I'm in this intervention, like that's a radical idea that most people have never heard.
I mean some so good.
Show me somewhere in culture where the idea is not to give your heart away in a, in a re. In a committed relationship. You know, like, I just, I know we've been hitting on this emotional self regulation correlation piece. I know Ron's been talking about it. I know it's in the mindful marriage, I know it's part of the RT model, but I don't know, I just, I love that because that's just got to be mind blowing for a lot of couples when you do that intervention. They've never even heard that before.
Yeah, it's very similar to like if I mean one of the other things and some of us do this differently as well. But when, when I draw their paints icon, their peace cycles, I draw that black line underneath and we start talking about like you can only be responsible for what's on your side of the line. Anything that emphasizes that idea really does kind of throw, throw them for a little bit of a loop. And you really have to make sure that you, what you could set up is, well, I don't have to care about my spouse. I only have to care about myself. And I'm always very intentional about saying, I see how you can get there. But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that when you get in your pain, you get your responsibility. You don't look to your spouse to make you get in your truth. You get in your truth, and then you re engage. So it really kind of helps drive home. And it is very countercultural and counterintuitive to a lot of marriages.
Yeah.
Love it.
I love that. Yeah.
Once again, we are taking down the co regulation. We are the co regulation police. You're going down.
Come on.
Does that make sense, people? Why should you be holding your spouse's heart and just throwing your heart to the wayside? Come on.
Yeah, I'm.
I'm ready. I'm reading.
I'm waiting for Lance to get a cease and desist letter from a certain therapy model someday. I'm just kidding. I love it.
I love it, I love it.
A little controversy is really good for the people, right?
Yeah.
All right. That was. That was good. Remember, guys, grab your heart pillows on Amazon. It'll be in the link. Some good heart pillows that are soft and somewhat different, but not completely different because we don't want to have those conversations.
Yeah. Got like, two gray pillows. It looks like one's a little darker gray and one's lighter gray, but, you know, barely. Barely different. So.
Yeah, I hard at that exercise, by the way. I. I hardened it.
Season 2 | Episode 85 | Kamusta ka? -- Cultural diversity in therapy, athletic performance, and all things RT with Marriage and Family Therapy Associate, Kim Agramon-Bai
