Season 1 | Episode 32 | Special Guest, RT Therapist & Senior Director of Relate Strong at the Boone Center for the Family, Dr. Dee Dee Mayer

Lance, what's going on?

Rat dude, how are you? Is what I want to know.

Are we gonna get into my daughter going off to college?

Oh, gosh.

I thought actually moving into the second week of her being gone, I'm finding it's harder right now than the first.

Week being gone because she's not at camp.

Yeah.

You have no place to put it.

Oh, this episode.

Sorry.

This episode with our guests may turn into how to launch kids, actually. So we might take a different angle, but this is episode 32.

Wait, we're at 32 right now?

We are at 32. 32 episodes.

Wow.

That's amazing. 32.

32. We're gonna keep this number. It is a good number for a good person. So, Lance, you introduce our guest.

Ladies and gentlemen, today we are so blessed to have with us the Dr. Dee Dee Meyer, who is the over the Boone center of the family. Now, when it. I want to tell you something about dede.

I.

She has done an act that, to me, I think is very hard to do. She has stepped in the. The footsteps and done an amazing job with what doctor or what Sharon Hargreave used to do at the Boone center of the family. And she has just done such a great work. We love her so much. She's written her dissertation on how to have healthy church boards. I mean, come on, people. Like, we need stuff like this. We need Dee Dee Meyer in this. In our worlds. She goes around all over the country. All I want to say the world. Eventually, her and I got to do some work with these awesome Australians that we love. And so anyways, we're stoked to have Dede. She teaches on primarily Relate Strong, right?

Yeah.

And Relate Strong has a whole bunch of different flows to it, which we'll be talking about soon. But super stoked to have you, Dee, and welcome to the RT dialogue.

Thank you. It's super stoked to be here. Super stoked to get to be with you and Rhett. Some of my favorite people.

It's a fun group.

Good community.

It's a good community.

It's really funny. So De lives the dream of having her daughter work for her.

Come on.

And she came on this morning instead. Rhett and I are like the. The what?

The you. You have fun uncle vibes.

Fun uncle vibes.

Can't help kind of see you as. Which is great in the RT world. Like this family world, right. Rent and lands for the fun uncles. It's pretty cool.

That's great. I'll be your fun uncle.

And you know, Rhett for you just bringing it like it. There's a world after college and come back and it gets so rich and so deep and. But it is so hard. I wish somebody's got to start talking about sending our kids off to college and how to do that well as parents and how that triggers our pain cycle, man.

Well, it was fun to see you too. You and your daughter working so closely at the RT summit and we had some dinners together and yeah, that's a whole life post leaving the nest.

That so awesome.

It was fun to watch you two interact and work together and laugh and have fun and just a different type of relationship. So, yeah, the will transition in that direction over the next, I'm sure, several years.

Yeah. Yeah. It's really fun.

It's so hard when you. I'll say I'll end here and then we can move on. But that final goodbye, when you're like, oh my gosh, you're at the dorm room, you've already. It's already been. Everyone knows the goodbye is coming, but nobody really. You're just kind of dragging it out and then, oh, then you say goodbye. You just like hold each other and hug each other. And then my wife and I, after we all cried together, my wife and I went down to our rental car and then sat in the car and cried together for a while longer.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't know that anybody equips you for that.

Like, yeah.

I told my husband as we were dropping our first daughter off at college, I said, nobody told me this. Like, I bought into this lie of raising up a kid to be an independent, contributing member of society. Like, I'm not sure. Nobody told me this point would come where I have to just let him launch. And I wasn't equipped. Like, I wasn't ready for that. And it's worked out great, but it is disorienting because what you've woven in for 18 years of relationship and investment and walking alongside feels like in a minute that whole tapestry gets ripped in half. And what you don't see is that it's going to get rewoven together and there's going to be a whole nother beautiful part of it. But that's what it felt like to me. It just felt like in a minute.

Yeah.

You know that feeling right now, the ripping.

Yeah. Well, Lance is already thinking about his young daughter going, oh, boy.

Oh, my gosh, guys. So when we dropped Julia off at kindergarten, we're walking away and Jennifer looks at me, she's like, are you crying?

My kids Would typically, because my son, when I put him in first grade class, we were in the classroom, we're listening to the teacher, and I have tears streaming down my face. And Christian looks up at me. She goes, like, why are you crying? I'm so happy for you, but I'm so sad for me like this. You grew up. Stop. I just want to hold you. Well, I.

You know, I. And I've said this before in another episode, but it's. I would never have had this framework except for this community. You know, when my daughter and I visited the school a year ago, April. So she's up in Spokane at Gonzaga.

Gonzaga. That's where my son went for a year.

Yeah. And I just. We were. We were touring the campus, and I called my wife later and I said, this is a place where I feel like she'll feel loved and has trust. Like, I felt like this is a loving and trustworthy place. Like, from everybody I met, the students, the faculty, to our tours to family, move in to the weekend to meeting the president to, like, all this stuff, I'm like, you know, in a world that is unsafe, right. Because I think it's perfectly safe, I'm like, I can leave her here knowing that she'll be loved and it will be a trust and safe and safe community. And RT has helped me understand that, you know, and so for the last year, those are specific things I was praying for, you know, in a college, that the last. The final college that emerged for her would be one that I felt like, exhibited love and trust in a way that. That would be tangible for her as a person. And so, you know, so here we are.

Yeah. Well, one last thing. I was talking to Nicole last week. Nicole Zasowski. Yeah, I know. And so we are. There is a movement afloat among parents and particularly among moms. Have you guys seen some of that tik tok stuff of dropping kids off and going and celebrating because, you know, you can now take care of yourself. And so we were talking about. I went to Target. You know, when you stand in the return line at Target, then it takes forever, right? The woman in front of us, the lady at the counter was like, oh, you have to drop your daughter off at school. And she had this 13 year old next to her, and the words out of the mom's mouth were, I cannot wait. I am so ready for my daughter to be gone. And she just looked at her and he goes, I love you, but you're a bit much, and I can't wait for you to be back at school and both the woman at the front, we were both like, oh, my goodness, you're missing something so important. And I just want to hug that little girl and say, you are not a bit much. You are exactly what you need to be. And so I do think this conversation is important about how do we do this really well. How do we. How do we balance some of our needs in parenting, but also recognize and give our kids. What you just said was magic red. I wanted to look for a place where my kid would enter in and this precious treasure of my daughter would find a place where she would have the extension of love and trust. That is a whole different paradigm, and it's such a beautiful one.

It's things we don't look for often in colleges. Right. We're looking for all the other things. But I was like, specifically so beautiful.

That care and that saying, I have given you this, and now it's time for me to look for this in another environment. And one day, that'll be you handing her off their way, hopefully in a new family. Like, whew. But what a beautiful transfer.

And before we go, we need to shout out to your daughter, Helena. I'm saying it correct, right?

You totally are.

Helena Meyer music.

Yeah.

She's got. She's a beautiful musician, beautiful voice, and so go over to Spotify. There's probably other, I'm sure, platforms that she's on, of course. But go over and check out some of her music.

You can hear Pink Cycle in it. Like, her next song coming out, man. It's called I think I Healed Wrong, and it's how we don't do the work of healing.

Wow.

So it's called Healed Wrong, so you can hear the Pain and Peace cycle and her music and send her a.

Message on Instagram and say that the fun uncles. The fun uncle sent you over. She's probably sitting in the office next to Dee Dee right now just rolling her eyes when she hears this come out eventually. Oh, boy.

Oh, boy.

Well.

Let'S.

You know, we could go all over the place, and I would, Lance, you can help me here. But I would love to hear about just the Relate Strong model De, specifically that you teach and oversee at Pepperdine. That was a really popular breakout session at the summit that people wanted to attend and hear that. And I think a lot of people listening may know something about it, but I think there's a lot of things people don't know about the model. And it's changed names over the years, too, correct?

Yes.

So, like, my wife And I did it years ago with Sharon and Terry when it was, I think, marriage strong or something like that. So, yeah, share with us what the work you're doing and what Relate Strong is.

Yeah, well, and I love. I just get to build upon the shoulders of giants. Right. I get to stand upon Sharon and Terry and. And the work that they laid out. And you know, what I love about Relate Strong is that it offers more a prevention model. It's really easily accessible. It's a way to get people kind of to dip their toe into the water of understanding some of the main concepts of restoration therapy in a way that helps them apply it to their lives. So, you know, not everyone has access to therapy. And quite frankly, we need more and more restoration therapists to meet the need of people who are stepping into therapy and what it has to offer. And so Relate Strong really is a very simple, easy to understand framework that helps people understand the concepts of restoration therapy. So it's built off not only restoration therapy, but it does the work of integrating theology for the work we do with churches and ministries. We also use it in the secular world, which we can talk about a little bit later. But it creates it as a tool to help people understand what our core needs are. Not only so that they can look at their own core needs, but they can look at the core needs of their own children, their spouses and everyone they interact with. Teammates, people they work with. And then how our stories influence our pain, how the truth can be a framework. Looking through the lens of truth, we can find grounding in love and trust again, so that we can step into emotional regulation. And what makes it different than the therapeutic office is that we can do that over a span of eight weeks, training people to do life groups. We can do that in a workshop day where you spend a few hours teaching the framework. And because it's such an easy to understand framework, it really is easy to apply. So people leave getting a taste of the power behind restoration therapy and how they might begin to use it and apply it in their lives, in their marriages, and actually to establish themselves on an identity that's secure and a way of engaging the world that they can. They can stand firmly on.

So good. Yeah, I always think of it, it's like kind of like the gateway drug. Like, this is how people come to know about restoration therapy and a very economical, sweet way. And, you know, it develops really good, like language. I feel it's like such a beautiful language model for a church or for a business setting where people learn restoration Therapy in a very safe environment. And they've been trained by the Dede.

Meyer or, or others like you who are doing this work too. Like, that's the whole point. And I think that's what I hope people will take from this is that really add. Relate strong to the tool belt of a therapist, expands your reach in so many different ways. Like we use this at organizations that are working with traffic victims and foster youth. I just did a group of, from a ministry called Empower. I mean, no exposure that really takes inner city youth and exposes them to life that is available to them and empowers them to step into the best parts of their lives. Right. So this model, and we worked with 14 to 18 year olds. I did a workshop for 14 to 18 year olds, 50 young women from the inner city. And the way this resonated with that group of young people, because what this does is it puts power back in your own hands. You're not defined by the story of. You're not defined by the worst thing that happened to you. You're not defined by the best thing that happened to you. And so we give people a framework to say, what do I do with what, what do I do with the mess that I've been given and how do I step into it? And so at these low, low levels of 14 years old, all the way up to doing these, at the highest levels of academia, working with therapists at organizations like the Korean Family association in LA that works with Korean immigrant families, this is so tangible and accessible and it just is a powerful tool. It really works to be able to get this material into the hands of some of the most marginalized communities. So it's a really effective, effective and powerful model.

Is it always over? If it's a small group, it's eight weeks. But then can you. Will you sometimes teach the whole model then, like in a weekend conference for an organization? And then there's an option to like spread it out in small groups longer.

A lot of what we do when we're working with organizations is we'll do it on a day workshop, a Saturday workshop, or a midweek workshop. When I went to kfam, that's what we did. We did a midweek workshop where they spent six hours with me and a couple of others. And we just worked through it and tried the program on. I'm going to be going to a med school out here, not too far in the future. Because what's happening among our med students and our residents, like the suicide rates since COVID have Just astronomically risen. And so to be able to teach them skills of emotional regulation in as pre physicians, we're going to be going in and doing that and we'll be doing that over two three hour seminars.

So great. How many. I was going to say you guys have to check out the resources that they have created at the Boone center with family. Yeah, these are absolutely like really well crafted resources they have. She's talking about this one day training. Jennifer and I did a, a training at a church last year and her and I were like trying to. We have this like typical, you know, handouts that we use whenever we teach about the pain and peace cycle. And then we see this amazing booklet that dede put together much like with, you know, with good attitude I would say. And it is such a great resource. So if you're ever like teaching like a weekend thing and you want to be able to go through the rest like restoration therapy model in a like bigger setting, it is such a great resource. What is that called? The.

It's.

It's the workbook. We're actually in the process of changing the name because we've created a new skills guide that is faith friendly and then we have a faith forward. So we're going to both. We'll call them. We're going to call them both skills guides because what we're finding is that even therapeutic practices really like having something tangible to be able to offer their clients, particularly nrt, to help work through and have something tangible for somebody to take home and work through it. So we have a couple different offerings of this workbook because it's just expanded and it allows us to expand in some of these other environments. The places we work with traffic victims or foster youth or immigrant ministries, they're not faith centric. And so we needed to create something that allowed for us to be able to engage those environments. Well, that's awesome.

Are there other people in the RT community doing some of the teaching with you, Didi, or are you kind of mostly on. Okay.

We are expanding because I can't, I can't be in that many places. I already travel now like probably two weeks out of every month I'm traveling. So we're working really, really hard to build a network of RT therapists that can go in and partner with churches and partner with ministries in their own context so that they make this available. And it's a phenomenal marketing tool. When you, when you step in and lead a workshop at a church, you give your card at the end and there are so Many people in the room that are like this really resonated. I would love to step in and I need some help in going through this, you know, with a, with a therapist, an RT therapist. And so that's our vision, like our, our evil plan. Sharon, Sharon's evil plan. My evil plan is really, I know, is really to go into these churches and connect them with RT therapists. Because very few models allow this therapy, allow for us to use our faith and our belief is actually something that's a strength and offers power in establishing a sense of identity. And we don't incorporate that in our healing. And I think that's a mistake. And I love that about rt. It's something so unique and so beautiful about RT is the ability to say what you believe about the world is really a strength and the questions you ask and creating a worldview is actually a key part of establishing you on a firm foundation.

So yeah, I'm have to turn this into a selfish conversation. But like, as I'm talking to De, I'm like, I need to do. I need to move in that direction versus like, because I think I'm. I think I'm better at working in the church context and training and doing stuff and teaching stuff. And I've done a lot of the RT stuff without the RT stuff back in the day where I was just teaching the pain and peace cycle as I understood it.

Yeah.

And I think, I think I'm better at that than training therapists, which I think Lance is really gifted at. Like he loves to get in and do the interventions and train the therapist. But I think I'm better. And I, I guess I'm just saying that out loud because it makes me think there's just a. There's a huge variety of ways in the RT community that people can be involved.

Yeah.

And use their varying gifts to teach rt, whether it's therapists or pastors or business organizations or. I mean there's a lot non profits.

Or nonprofits, you know, service organizations that are out there. Like, think of the impact on homeless populations. Think of the impact in. I'm working with a lot of addiction centers. Right. Yeah. About the impact in addiction. Think about sexual addictions. Think about, you know, I mean, it is endless. The places where RT can be like a healing balm to these organizations. But you once people taste a little like. I don't know if you experience this in your practice, but when people have been to therapist upon therapist upon therapist and then they land in your office, there is a moment where they're like, what are you practicing? This is so different. Like something. You're speaking home to me in some way. Right. And so people get a tiny taste of this and they're like, this is something unique and different. And it actually speaks to something in me about who I'm supposed to be. And it empowers me to step into the world with more confidence, more capacity, more ownership. Uh, and I think people are hungry for that. They don't want this model that has kept them in therapy, dependent on a therapist for a decade without much change. That's not what we're made for either. So I. I love that about this model.

And by the way, Rhett, I'm going to disagree. I think you're a good trainer, I think.

Thanks.

I. I still remember sitting down at the first RT summit and you, like, had all these. You were talking on anxiety, and it was absolutely legendary. It, like, changed my whole therapy room because of you. Because you're like, hey, you ever think about having a ping pong table in your room? How about a Rubik's cube? How about, you know, you have, like, all these things?

And I was like, I was there. That was. Yeah, I was there. Yeah, I would. I would agree. I would agree, Rhett. I think.

Well, no, thank you. That's. I appreciate that. I just. I think I'm just. I'm really interested in. And I think it has to be with growing up in a pastor's home and then being in ministry myself and then working with a lot of churches in the area still, and lots of pastors that, you know, I use our team, the room with the pastors. But I. I'm thinking more about, like, how do I get in front of a larger group of, like, their congregants to give them a resource. And there's a couple of churches in the area where I've pitched to them, you know, hey, what would you think about doing something over eight weeks or something like, like small group stuff? Or how about I come in and I have. I have trained a couple. It's not trained. I've spoken to a couple of different staffs here and, you know, talked about the pain and peace cycle, but it felt more rushed, and I think I was without the necessary resources that the Boone center now has that I would like utilize. But I just. For me, yeah, I just resonate with that need and probably because I feel a little more. I speak both languages very well, like, both the theological, which both of you do, obviously, and the psychological. And so I'm really drawn to that.

Yeah, well. And where. Where I found where most successful Rhett is the churches, quite frankly, in any ministry. When I worked in. In administration at a school, like, people are at you all the time with the program that's going to change your life. And so you get really resistant to listening to somebody who has something to offer because you're so tired, you've gotten burned so many times. And so one of the most powerful things that we do, particularly for pastors, and it might be my favorite thing, is teaching this model in a small minister's marriage enrichment experience where where you get three couples, four couples max in a room, and over two days, you're working pastors through this material in a taste and see model. And once pastors taste it, honestly, so much of the expansive growth that have happened, that has happened in the center around relate strong is because somebody came and tasted it and was like, this is different than anything out there. We need to bring this to our community. But it's more of a. I experienced it. I know the power behind it. Now I want to make sure that I can grow my church up in. In this model. And everybody needs to experience this because it's really a discipleship maturity model. It helps us grow to maturity. It gives us a framework to understand who we are, how we operate, why we operate that way, and that we can put on a new self in Christ and grow. We're not stuck there. We actually have some power to change those things. So it's so tangible that people really resonate with it. But it is in that, like, send some of those pastors to the minister's marriage enrichment. It's. So we've got a grant to do them here. So it's $350 for two nights at the Villa 9 with an ocean view, two meals a day. Right. Like, get yourself here, pay 350 bucks. And churches are more than happy to say, hey, Pastor, go do this. And it does. It is unlike anything they've ever experienced. They leave saying, you know, is this is unlike anything I've ever experienced. I am now leaving equipped to do ministry better. I understand what's happening to me in ministry. I'm more equipped to do family as a pastor together. Man, that is a pain point for pastors, right? Parenting and marriage. And so, yeah, that's where I found the best door in. The more I try to knock on that door, the more there's like, I've been here, done that. Like, thousands of people have tried to sell me their product.

So what's the we we're talking about this before we hopped on too. What's the. How do you differentiate the pastor's enrichment? Marriage enrichment versus like in a marriage intensive, like the hideaway versus.

Yeah.

Some other model, you know, like you. Because you were talking about the psychoeducational aspect of it. I'm just curious.

Yeah. So, versus an intensive. The minister's marriage enrichment is for healthy marriages. Right. Or for marriages that might be going through just the difficulties of holding ministry space. And so an intensive is an intensive. That's what it is. Like you're going because you're at the end of your rope in your marriage. This is more, hey, let's do a tune up on your marriage and let's give you a skill to help you navigate that. And so if there's an affair that's just been discovered, an intensive would be better than an enrichment. Right. So it's really more to enrich and to give you that. What makes the ministers one so powerful is we. We pit you with three other couples that are doing this work. So I'm always surprised at what the Lord does in the room. Right. You think, oh, these pastors for their whole lives have to be hidden. Nobody can know their real stories. But they're so hungry to be in a room with other pastors, and there's only other pastors and missionaries, so they feel known immediately. And then they leave with people from all over the country who they now have access to. They already know their story and they don't have to do the hard work of getting their story known. You go pretty quick because you know each other and then you have somebody who has nothing to do with your context that now can hold you accountable, knows your story, knows the stuff you're struggling with. Um, and so you don't have to be so isolated. So there's so many beautiful things that happen in that small little model. But it isn't for kind of what would send you to an intensive. Like, we were really in trouble in our marriage.

Well, and, you know, I. Doing intensives for four years back in the day, you realize people sometimes get an intensive and think, why am I here? Why am I at a marriage? My marriage is good.

Yeah.

You know, so I would imagine too, even just pastors and their spouses coming to an enrichment discover a lot of things about themselves that they didn't realize. Oh, this. This needs some work.

Oh, yeah, no. Oh, yeah. The number of times people in there say, I never knew, like, so much sense to me, where. Where we get stuck. I never Knew. I never knew that was what you were carrying. Right. So for both husband and wife, you know, and did it.

Isn't it based off of the research you guys did with the. Oh, gosh, what's the name of the group? Who's the popular, like, statistic group?

Barna.

Yeah, the Barna study that you guys did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the Barna study was. Was the Barna work that we did was for the development of the Relate Strong Leadership series that kind of did the work of navigating some of the topics that the church has gone away from. You know, the more polarized we've become as a culture, the more the church went silent on things like pornography and healthy physical intimacy and mental health. And so a lot of the work we did with Barna there was really focused on engaging those conversations within the church context. But it's funny. I mean, I speak to thousands of pastors, and it's like the usness of the Relate Strong model and restoration therapy. When I ask, hey, how many of you, when you got married, had a clear understanding of what usness was in marriage? Like, what were you shooting after? What's this thing? Intimacy? And how do we get there? Had two pastors raise their hand, like, they teach this stuff. Like they teach Body of Christ. We use this language, we throw it around. But we actually live in a culture that is so counter to intimacy, we don't recognize that the air we breathe is actually keeping us from what we were made for, which is intimate, integrated lives. That's the Body of Christ. It's what marriage is designed to be. It's what we're supposed to do in family. So nobody's really taught us how to do it. So casting that vision has so much power, too. Just being able to simply use that language and say, hey, this is what this is for. It's what we were made for, and this is why it feels so hard to obtain. Because it's different.

Yes, I think it'll be great. I mean, so some of our listeners that are on here, they're not as familiar with restoration therapy. You've talked about usness here. I think it'd be good. I don't think we've spent a lot of time on usness in the. Could we. Could we land on that topic for just a little bit? Because I think you do a great job when you talk about it, about what usness is and. And how to, you know, if you're talking, like, if you're working with couples, you know, whether it's In a psycho educational place or even in a therapeutic place. How do. How do you guys like to talk about usness?

Yeah. Are you asking me or are you asking Rhett?

I. I think Dee Dee should answer this one. I think she does a better job.

No, I doubt that. I do it that I want to. I want to. Dr. Dr. Lance. Um, okay, so when we're teaching this, we really cast a vision and say, so much of our culture and our world really has each of us operating in different spheres. And that independence, like the. The joke that I always use is Ben Affleck. And whatever Jennifer he happens to be with at the time, we call Benifer. Like, we have this view of usness where we are surrendering parts of ourselves, right? But usness is so unique. It's. It's basically where to become three. You know, it's. It's the best of you with the best of me, and it makes a stronger us. And so it really is kind of what God has called us to in. In interdependence. It's its own relationship, and nobody really teaches us how to do this. And I love. I never forget what Sharon does. Like, she's. She gives this example when she teaches of, you walk up to the front, the pastor says, what to what God has put together, let no man separate. And then you're walking down the aisle. You still have two different ways of loading the dishwasher. You still have two different ways. A toilet paper roll on, right? Nobody's really taught us, how do we do this thing of taking my whole life, my experience, my background, the best of me and what you have to offer, the best of you and coming together so that we can work and operate like a healthy gear, that we're stronger together. And so that's where we talk a little bit about what it means that usness isn't about competition. I think everybody knows that competition does damage to intimacy. But where RT veers and is very different is compromise. Sharon and Terry would say and do say, and now I say it's just a nice way to compete because I'm still my self is the focus that I have still. Like, if I don't get what I want, then I'm going to start to build resentment, right? And I use this picture of a tug of war, right, that I'm constantly looking at, have I gotten enough of mine? Because if I do it your way, then next time I want to do it my way. And even worse than that, if I surrender and compromise and do it your way in marriage, and it goes wrong. I'm pointing a finger at you and I'm saying, see, we should have done it my way. If we'd have done it my way, it would have been better. And this vision of usness is really co laboring. And that's a biblical principle. It's cooperating, it's dropping the rope shoulder to shoulder, saying, together we're smart enough to solve this problem. So let's together start to brainstorm what's the best ways, and let's choose our number one first decision. Sometimes the second decision is the better decision. So we're going to hold that openly and say we're going to try. We're going to give it the best go for the first one. Here's. We're going to make that step, but we might have to come back to the table. If we take a hit because we did it wrong, we're taking the hit together. If we got it right, we're going to celebrate together. And it changes this whole concept of what it means to work alongside one another together. It changes the whole concept of competing for our needs. It lets us negotiate and collaborate and cooperate on complex problems that we face that oftentimes don't have a solution that's easy. And so instead of creating perfect fodder to build resentment, it actually creates an environment where we can build trust. And we recognize that we as two are better than one. I need the way you think because it helps me make a better choice here. And so if we put our minds together, we'll be better. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I. I spent some time in Genesis recently looking at that two become one passage. And like that, that oneness is this sense of being, Ken, like, of being like, you're my kin, as we'd say in the South. I don't know if you say it in Texas or not.

I haven't used that word yet, that phrase, but I'll listen for it now.

You're my kid. But like this oneness, like it's instead of. I love. If you ever get to get trained by Dee Dee, her tug of war, she's got these like, really good analog, like images that she'll create with you. But the tug of war one is great. But like, how do we become kin? How do we become one instead of fighting one another? Whether we're taking turns fighting each other with compromise, or if we're in this place of, you know, we're gonna fight till the cows come home. No, it's about how do we become one, how do we how do we allow the best parts of us to really shine? And I think that's the beauty of what we do with restoration therapy when it comes to our couples work is like we're helping them to realize the beauty of what happens when they become one or kin.

Yeah. And they drop the rope. And that call in John 17, man, it's interdependence. It's actually, I need what you bring to the table. And that's one of the things I even love about the eight week group. You know, the group is spending time in personality and recognizing I'm actually better because my husband's an extrovert and I'm an introvert. Like, I'd probably spend a lot more time in the house without my husband pulling me out. Like, our differences aren't. They become places where we battle and cause pain, but quite frankly, I'm better. And so when we can learn to rely on the gifts that each of us bring to the table. I just think about it when you're looking at, like, when I show up for a meeting and I feel like I am worthy and valuable and I have something unique to offer the equation, just the simple identity statements in love. Right. And I have belonging. And I feel like you're gonna listen. I can rely on the fact that you're gonna listen. I'm gonna show up different. I'm gonna look for where my unique gift might offer value, but I'm actually also, from that framework, going to be looking at your gifts. You know, every time I think about, like Rhett and Lance, like Lance, so many people just want to be you when they grow up. Like your gifts at running business, your gifts in the way that your mind works, it's unique and different. And so oftentimes I'm drawn to that. Rhett, in the same way, you have such a humble personhood that draws therapists to be able to be vulnerable with you. That's a hard group to create vulnerability with. And Lance, one of the gifts, I mean, Rhett, one of the gifts you bring to the table is you model that which invites therapists to do the hard work of not needing to be a perfect therapist and step in and say, hey, let's hold what we're actually all holding together, right? So we're actually not just looking for where our gifts can be used, but we're also looking at where your gifts. That's interdependence. Right. That's the picture of the church using the gifts interchangeably and growing to maturity. That's the description of maturity in the body. It's so beautiful what God's designed. So good.

What do you two think in the RT literature is a good. Like I see Terry's book, his Essential Humility Marriage, which I think is when I first read about usness. And then he talks about other places. Is there any place you think in the RT literature or relate strong literature that has a good description of us ness or talks about it at length or is that something Lance is going to. You two are going to have to write a book on or something?

Yeah, I don't. That's a good question. I don't know, but I think it would be mindful. Marriage Hits on the vision is really good. Yeah, it's a really good. It's a really good book. It does a really good job of that essence. And I know it has a chapter in Advances in Techniques. Is it advances in techniques or the first book? One of the first book.

I feel like does a. Has like the usness. Like, they do a good job with that as well.

Yeah.

But I do think casting that vision, helping people really understand what God designed in a community is working together. Marriage is working together. I think there's phenomenal opportunity. People are desperate for that. Like, let's look at what Vivek Murthy talks about. Named as the medical crisis in 2019 was loneliness. And so start looking at the stats on males, right? Men, adult men that don't feel like they have one person in the world who truly knows them. Like, this vision of what it's supposed to look like to be intimately connected to one another in a way that makes us stronger together. Like, we were made to be drawn to that. And when we don't have authentic relationships, we get sick because of it. Like, that's what Vivek Murphy said. It's worse than smoking almost a pack of cigarettes a day. It's worse than eating on a healthy diet and not exercising. Like, loneliness does intense damage. And so casting a vision for people of what it means to be in interconnected communities would be really powerful. I'm all for that. Rhett.

We were talking about pickleball earlier, before we hopped on. And I remember an old metaphor, at least when I was doing the Hideaway, we were talking about usness. And Todd Sandel would talk about the idea of playing, like, doubles tennis and. And a lot of couples, instead of being on the same side of the net where they're working together. Right. They're on the opposite sides and competing against each other.

Yeah.

You know, and. And I Just I. I'll never forget that. That metaphor. And I use that a lot in the room. Kind of this, this. This tennis pickle. Pickleball metaphor. I liked the. The tug of war, the rope. That's a good one.

Tug of war. I get my clients up in the room and have them pulling on the side of the rope. And then what's really powerful about it is like, can you. Can you think about how many of your dialogues and conflicts involve you holding a rope? And it is an immediate, tangible, like, okay, so the phrase we're going to use is drop the rope. Drop the rope. Can we drop the rope? Can we come together and drop the rope? And it's been a really powerful metaphor with couples in being able to reorient and reset around a common vision of, hey, we're holding. We took up the rope again. Can we drop it and come together?

That's a good shortcut. Just to the phrase drop the rope of. Just like signaling and triggering what that. That means for a relationship.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think also, like, if you're using pickleball analogies, I mean, the pickleball court has a place called the kitchen. You're not supposed to be in the kitchen. So there's. You get in trouble in the kitchen, don't you?

And, yeah, you can only be in the kitchen for a minute.

I like dropped rope better. I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah.

Do you actually have a rope in your office?

Huh?

You do? I like that.

Yeah.

It'd be cool.

It makes a difference when I do. I just told Mauricio I want a rope for when I give presentations here because there is a difference when you're holding a rope. It's really hard for people to pretend tug of war, but I have to tell you, in tug of war, I've never been more sore in my entire life than when I played tug of war in intramurals in college. Like the muscles you use when you're at battle with somebody. I use muscles I didn't even know existed in my body because they hurt after. Right. And so I. And I don't think we realize the muscles and the extents of damage that we do when we're just pulling on the rope. And the only thing we can think about is winning. Right.

Yeah.

Easy it is to get into that dynamic in relationship. It just. Even on teams. Right.

Oh, gosh.

So easy for us to do that. And. And it's so destructive to usness when.

We get well, just like you're not sore right away, you're sore Maybe the next day or days later. You don't realize in a marriage until over a period of time.

Yeah.

That what that battle is doing to the relationship.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then associate that with forgiveness. Right. Yeah. And Terry's model of forgiveness, who. Right. This idea and this concept of what essence can look like. So.

And then Dee Dee does the part where just. Just to bring it all home. I mean, when you talk about tug of war, what's in the middle of the tug of war? Right. You have to talk about that part, Right.

Oh, yeah. The mud, the sour cream. Everybody. Nobody. Nobody played tug of war like I played tug of war. And, like, we. If you lost, you got jello whipped cream, shaving cream. Like, everyone knew. The world knew you lost tug of war, like, because your body communicated to everyone. You were a mess. You had shaving cream in your hair. It was bad. It was brutal. That was in the middle.

It would be fun.

There's a flag.

It'd be fun to do. Like, remember MTV used to do the cribs back in the 90s if we did a. Like a therapist cribs, we take video around and, like, check out the therapist's office and all the different, like, tools and.

Oh, yeah.

Things that they use. That'd be fun.

Yeah.

RT cribs.

Yeah.

What do you call an office, though? Office has, like, a different.

Yeah. I don't know what you'd call it, man. Sorry. Sorry to take us down that direction.

No, it's awesome.

No, it's. It's one of my dreams because I have all these like, different things in my office always. Yeah. I always use them. So I think, like, when we have images and things like that in our office that speak to our heart, and then you can hand that thing to the person and then they have to talk about it. It's amazing.

Yeah. I'm like, I should go out and get a rope. I mean, that's what I was thinking about just now. It's like, I should bring something like that into my office that's really tactile and tangible for people to use.

Yeah, absolutely.

Hand it to them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just the things that we use to demonstrate some of these main components that are memorable for people.

Yeah.

You know, like, I'll actually have. I'll pile my sofa pillows up on the floor. When we're talking about love and trust in the pain cycle and that you're trying to get yourself on an unstable. Like, that's what our coping strategies are. We're just trying to get ourselves On a stable love and trust. But it's unstable foundation. We can't do it in our pain cycle. And so I'll stand them up. And I'm like, how easy? How much are you just focusing on standing up? And that's also proven to be a very powerful, very powerful reminder that they take with them. Like, oh, I'm. I'm in my pain cycle, which means I'm standing on a bunch of pillows. Easy for me to fall over. I don't want to be here. So anything that kind of, you know, that's what this is. It's one of the things I love about RT is that all of us come up with this unique recipe of how do we embody some of the learning so that people can take phrases like drop the rope. I'm not on a stable foundation. Right. I just need to get myself girded again on a stable foundation of love and trust. Like, these things are what drive us to help people pursue wholeness and flourishing in their relationships. So, so fun to put power back in the hands of our clients.

Yes. So they can drop the rope better.

Yeah. Didi feel like I should know this, and I don't think I do. What. What was your entry into rt?

Oh, my gosh.

Like, what was that moment or journey like? How did you get to even exposed to that?

So I worked at a school out here. There's a big Christian school out here. And I was associate head of school for spiritual life, but I was also Christian. Yeah. So, yeah. But I was also in charge of social, emotional, learning and wellness. Right. Because of my degree as a social worker and had a private practice and so worked really hard. Sometimes in Christian environments, we think Jesus is the answer to all mental health issues and that we don't need anything. Just slap a verse on it and people should feel better. And so I. I worked. I worked with the school for a long time and took it. It took a really long time of communicating over and over and over again. Sometimes people need a little additional help. And so I worked with Sharon Hargrave and Connie Horton. I got connected with them, and they met with our leadership to talk about the liability really, of not providing some form of a framework for wellness. And so I got connected to the Boone center for the Family at that time and got connected to the programs. And about a year later, I was doing my doctoral project, and I thought that I was going to do spiritual formation for young people because that's what I was doing in my job. But the Lord really broke my heart for leadership in the church. And honestly, for leaders who are put in positions and expected to be able to have all answers, like we made all our pastors, like the head of the church without recognizing no one person has all the gifts. Right. And so it broke my heart. So I reached out to Sharon and said, I made a decision. I don't want to write about a problem. I'm so tired of reading about the problem with no solution. And Relate Strong really offers a tangible, viable solution. So I called Sharon and said, hey, Sharon, I'm writing this and I'd love to incorporate Relate Strong in the work that I'm doing in my doctoral project. And she said, I'd love for you to use it. And I just retired. I need to replace myself. Are you interested in a role? And so that's how I Lord just sort of picked me up and landed me in this space when I wasn't even looking for it. And it just was such a God. Like, this is exactly what God wanted me doing. So it's been really fun.

That's wild.

Yeah. How did.

Was it just by being, you know, the like, proximity of Thousand Oaks to Pepperdine that you started to hear about rt or did you.

Did it.

You know what I'm saying? Or did you.

Yeah.

Something.

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like the stepchild because all you guys getting direct. Sharon and Terry and I met and got introduced to the full RT model through Relate Strong, which is very different than all of you. So what made it good is the way that I practiced naturally, fit seamlessly, you know, fit seamlessly. I already practiced. I just didn't use the language. So it just was a fun, like this thing that God was weaving together was something that nobody else could have woven together. And so I got introduced to the world of RT through Sharon and Terry. With you first Lance in San Diego. That was my first day on the job. Was a workshop in San Diego at your church. And that just opened up years of working really, really closely and getting mentored by Sharon and by Terry and expanding my love for and the impact of that program. And so I took the level one training and I have led countless really strong trainings now at this point and workshops. And so. Yeah, but that was my step in. It was a little bit different than the normal step in.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I like, I, you know, I always say I came. I graduated before Terry and Sharon got to Fuller.

I did not know that.

Yeah. So I was exposed to it by somebody telling me about some marriage intensives that are doing up In Texas at the Hideaway. And I started visiting. And I started visiting. Steve and Rajan are like, well, before we bring you on staff, you need. You need to meet Terry and Sharon. So I met the four of them for breakfast here in Dallas, like, in 2010, I think. Wow. To make sure I was okay to bring on staff. And I don't even remember at the time, we weren't even using rt. Like, that wasn't in the. In the vocabulary of the model. It was just. There was a pain cycle and a peace cycle, and that's all I. That's all I knew of it. You know, it wasn't until a few years later, I started doing the level one training with Terry. So it is interesting, all the different variations, people kind of come into the model at.

Yeah, you guys were grafted in.

We were.

There you go. Yeah, bring it back.

Yeah.

Just.

Just makes such a beautiful part of the tree of restoration therapy.

Yeah, that's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. And it's such. And like, it's. It sells itself. Like, it's such a powerful and impactful model. And I think what I love most about it, again, is it just puts power back in the hands of our clients to know that they can regulate. Yeah. Get themselves back on a firm foundation of love and trust so that they can bring their best self to whatever problem they're facing in their life, in their marriage and their family, in their. And, you know, I mean, it doesn't solve every problem. There are some problems that just can't be solved, but it does make us better at being able to step in and have a little bit easier time navigating those problems.

What are. You know, you're obviously intimately involved in rt. I was curious about, like, just your own hopes and dreams and desires for, I think, rt. But the work you're doing with Relate Strong and Pepperdine, just, you know, if people are listening and wondering, you know, where can they get involved? And. And. And maybe where. I don't know, where their gifts align, maybe with the direction RT is going. And just. Just from your perspective, you know, like, what are your. What. What are you thinking about and dreaming about these days that you're really excited about?

Oh, gosh, that's a great question, but I have lots of answers for that because we. Honestly, one of my favorite things about what we do with Relate Strong is we're not trying to create dependence on the Boone center or the Relate Strong model. We're really trying to equip churches and ministries to be places of Hope and healing and to use it as a model. So we like to train other places and connect people. So if that is something that you're passionate about and you want to explore how you can become someone that connects and uses, relate strong to, you know, to bring to your communities a model that helps families flourish and marriages flourish and opens the door to grow your practice. Reach out to me at the Boone Center. We're actually trying to create right now a user login model that allows us to expand our reach a little bit. And so that's kind of the next few on the horizon. And what we would love to be able to do is have resources of RT therapists and lots of communities that we can connect to be running these trainings, running these groups. We just applied for a grant to try to support marriages of first responders because even just through Covid and through the fires around here, nobody's really talking about law enforcement and the marriage divorce rate and law enforcement and military. Unique challenges of some of those firefighters, unique challenges associated with some of those marriages. And so we're really trying to expand into unique populations. It's been really fun to work with med students and things like that. So there's so many different places for therapists to get involved in helping to bring healing and education to some of these environments where it's just desperately needed. People are hurting. The mental health crisis that we're. That we're in right now, I mean, people. And people are really desperate. And this material really influences and impacts people in such a positive ways because it speaks to the truth about who we are, how we're made, how we're designed, that all of us are empowered. We just need a little help in knowing how to climb out. Like, let's give them a ladder. That's what this framework does. Or a rope. Or a rope. But we want you to drop the rope and climb the ladder, right? Yes. You know what I mean? So. So, yes, reach out. Like, send a pastor this way so that they can taste and see. Get a taste and see if you want to sponsor a pastor to come out for 350 and come and spend some time here and say, don't just take our word for it. Go learn the model and then see if it's something you think our church would benefit from. Literally, that's how I connected with Awana. It's how I connected with some of these larger organizations, because people taste it and they're like, we gotta. We gotta make this known. And now it's extending into work. We're doing with parenting and. And how do we stay connected to our kids in a world where there's so much estrangement growing? Like families are disintegrating because political environment, man, we don't know. Nobody's really taught us how to stay connected in a polarized environment as families. So there is no limit to where you can get involved if you're interested. And we're going to be looking for RT therapists in tangible ways very shortly, particularly if we get this grant.

Guys, Dee Dee is going to lead the way for healing coming up soon. Man, we're super stoked. She is. She is like the Brigadier General. And we salute you for your.

Jesus does that. I hold his hem. But you're General.

He's. He's the. He's the commander. You're the general.

Yeah. Terry and Sharon. I think I'm standing right behind them. Like, we're all in it together. That. We're all in it together using our voices for our spheres of influence. And so, I mean, it's.

It's nuts. I literally pulled up the site on the Boone center for the. The pastor's marriage enrichment as we're talking, because I'm like, I want to see it. And 350 for two nights on campus. Two meals a day preaching curriculum meals. Like, all you do.

I gotta do is.

Yeah, all you gotta do is get yourself to Malibu. And who doesn't want to do that?

I know, I know. And we give you time in the afternoon to go on a date with your.

Yeah.

Bride or your husband. And, you know, we're right next to hiking right on the beach. And look, the whales and the dolphins are insane right now. Like, it's pretty epic.

I'm gonna reach out to some pastors I know.

So we got them coming up every.

Time I hear about it. When's the next one?

October. October. End of October.

Is it already full or is there space?

Got one more spot in that one, and then we've got another one in November. We've got another one in January. We want to do one in February.

So I think I. I think by the end of the day, we will have the October one filled.

Okay. Okay.

So get ready. What's the next one?

That's what you're gonna have to do. November. And then. Yeah, there's another one in November. I think that's on the website, too. And then we have to just plan one for January and February. I'll be in Nashville doing one with our friends in October. No, no, with the same. Our Australian Friends.

Oh, you're gonna do it with them?

I'm doing it with them. And the church isn't out there. We're teaching them how to do it so they can bring it to Australia. How do you do a minister's marriage enrichment retreat so that they can bring it to Australia? New Zealand.

Robin. Edith.

Oh, that's awesome.

They have a cool resource coming out soon, too.

Yeah, they're epic. So, hey, St. Claire out there, mid October. I'll be doing it out there. So we've got a number on the calendar.

That's so cool, which is really fun.

Well, as we wind down. I know, and I know what Lance likes to do is you wind down the conversation, but Didi may have already demonstrated that with the rope stuff and everything. So, you know, any closing thoughts or things that are important for us to know, Deedee, about you and the work you're doing and anything you just want the audience to hear.

Yeah, man. I just would love people to explore the relate strong resource as a complement to the work that they do and as a venue to be able to get the word out of what's available through rt. It's such an easy, tangible model. You get a small group, even just run a small group, get trained and run a small group. And I would say there's a little bit of a difference in the therapy that you do in your office, right, where you have a long time. I think the hardest learning curve for therapists, it's a little easier to teach laypeople because when you're doing a pain cycle, you're doing it in seven minutes. And therapists, man, they get so caught up in the story, they're like, tell me a little bit more. I want to go deeper, right?

And so understand this rock.

I must understand how you got to this pain. Why don't you feel worthy, Right? Tell me about that safety pain. So we want to expand a little more on the story, and so, you know, get trained. This is such a phenomenal tool to add in the toolbox of your own practice and be able to expand your practice into new venues and even be able to use it in service. I can't even tell you what it is like to see a young person who's grown up in foster care and been in family upon family upon family, be able to say, I have some power. Like, they've had no power their whole lives in the narrative. But when you reintroduce them to the fact of who they are and that they have power, it is transformative. And so to Be able to take this to some of the marginalized people, groups that all of us are exposed to, who might not ever have access. Like, I hope that people in this, on this call will hear the power that it can offer to the least of these, to expand and to grow and to stop the cycle. You start looking at the stats on the cycle in foster youth, man, if we can just stop that cycle. If we can invest in parents and dads, we're doing work with dads, right. If we can invest in dad staying connected, we would change culture. Like, and that's not to say moms aren't important, but if you do the research, the investment of a dad in the family in positive ways transforms family. It just does. Mom is close second, but it really is dads. And dads are tapping out in lots of different ways. We're doing work with disability ministry right now. So, like, no lack of places to get involved and use this as a resource to open doors, to expand your practice.

So how does someone get trained?

So we do trainings a few times a year. So I. I just did one last week. I have another virtual training literally coming up Thursday, Friday of this week that we'll be doing, and we'll do more throughout the year. So we do at least four trainings, two virtual and one usually on Pepperdine's campus. Two on Pepperdine's campus. One's for the Pepperdine and then another somewhere off site at a location. I'm tend. I usually do a training somewhere.

And that's all on. And we'll put links to this, but that's all on the Boone center for the Family website.

Yeah.

And there's an email if you haven't subscribed yet. And we'll put that in the links, too. I mean, you can send a great email out. Is that every couple of weeks, maybe.

Yeah. Yeah.

And there's all the resources listed and all the upcoming stuff.

Yeah. Go to LinkedIn, too. All of our stuff's on LinkedIn. Good.

Yeah, man, I'm so thankful to have you today, you know, and, you know, I think a resource that Rhett and I are going to work on is the Fun uncle resource.

I love that.

Don't you think.

Uncle.

We all have them.

Oh, man. Yeah. And then we'll. And then we'll work on using RT to help us transition our kids into adulthood from.

Somebody needs to write that book, man, that is like, yeah. Learning how to parent your kids and let them know when your kid is walking into something difficult and saying, okay, I need to let you. Like, I need to let you experience pain as a parent.

Have you guys read Meg J's Defining Decade book? Cliffhanger.

No.

Defining Decade. Why the 20s Aren't the New 30s. Great book. She's out of UVA. Love, Meg J. It's a great, great resource. She hits on, like, three major factors of things that are important to do in your 20s. So I write that down. Throw that on your little reading cadre for yourselves and for your kids.

Yeah, I was. I wrote a post the other day, and I was just, you know, I was channeling Walter Brueggeman about. We. We are constantly moving from orientation to disorientation to new orientation. And I am in. We're in disorientation. And, you know, that's just a part of life. And I'm just gonna align myself with it and see what God has to do, you know?

Amen.

Yeah. And read the Pain is Worthy. Like, it's supposed to be this way. It's supposed to hurt. It's because you've done this really well. It's supposed to be painful. It's just how you're gonna hold the pain.

Yeah.

The ripping of the tapestry.

I know it's hard. It hurts, but it's so necessary. Like, we had to rip. Think about your own ripping and how essential that was to your identity. Like, it's beautiful. Just let's prepare parents for it a little better, maybe. Yeah.

And I've forgotten your son had gone against aga and. Yeah, we'll have to. We'll have to connect around that, so.

Oh, gosh. Yeah.

Chat about questions around Spokane.

Yeah.

Well, it's good having you, too. And episode 32, coming out in the.

What is it called? In the wraps. In the.

In the books. We'll just say in the books.

So fun. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's such a fun.

Thank you for coming on.

It's awesome.

Have a good day, everyone.

Cheers.

Sat.