Season 1 | Episode 33 | Special Guest -- Fuller Professor, Dept. Chair, & RT Therapist, Dr. Miyoung Yoon Hammer

Hey, Lance. What's up today?

Rhett? Today's a good day, brother.

Let's just dive into it. You and I won't, you know, do our normal.

No banter.

Yeah, crazy banter. Down this side road.

Everybody will be.

Got a great guest. Yeah, let's just jump into our guest today. I'll let you do the introduction because you've actually known her longer and I think you actually may have been in a class as well.

I think I would say a few classes over the years. I would. I. This is a really big honor for me today to have me young Dr. Yoon Hammer as we knew her initially and very intimidated to have her as professor in. In her. In her classes as she would always challenge us as students. But yeah, we're so gifted. I mean, Meyoung has done so much work with restoration therapy. She currently is at Fuller doing flp, which is the Fuller live practicum experience that I got to do the first one at Fuller. But before that she's written a ton on rt. She's one of our best resources, which is there it is. Advances in techniques and restoration therapy. Meyoung has also done a. Did you write an article with Terry on affairs Unforgiveness was on forgiveness somewhat related. But yeah, yeah, Me Young is absolutely amazing. She's done some really cool stuff with med family therapy. She is absolutely gifted. This is. You know, people that Fuller that get to do her med family track, they. They just exit. Just so exuberant about the work of med family therapy.

And it.

It blows your mind when you think about how many of our clients struggle with this. So I'm sure we'll get to talk about that. We had her for our cultural class at fully multicultural class. Definitely, you know, got. Got to struggle through that and learn through like, oh gosh, this so, so, so heavy. And the beauty to experience. So yeah, super stoked today. I'm sure we'll talk through all these things. One last thing about Myung. She is actually one of the few people who has a song that has been written for her by Terry. So, you know. What's that?

You've heard it?

I have heard it.

I don't even know that I've heard it in completion.

Well, just like all of us, it's always a work in progress, right?

That's awesome.

Wow.

I'll have to circle back to Terry and hear it.

Yeah.

So I'm sure we'll have you on here multiple times. Me Young. I've been like chopping at the bit to get you On. I guess some kid going all the way to Wisconsin got in the way. But, yeah, stoked to have you on here. I know. Probably have a few students listening when we listen to this, so shout out to all the students of Myung. Yeah. Thanks for being with us.

Well, thanks so much for inviting me. It's such a, such an honor to be able to be part of the dialogue. I've been listening to your podcast since the beginning, and they've just, just been so enriched. I appreciate it. I, I use your episodes as required, required media in my classes.

Oh, wow. That's where all the listeners are coming from.

Yeah, no, I mean, I, I think it's really good stuff. And just, you know, what you're, what you're essentially doing is you're helping archive and catalog this really incredible, rich work that's being done across the RT community. So I, I, I love that you two have done this. Again. I said this prior, prior to the start of the conversation when we were just chit chatting. You know, I appreciate the, the endurance, the stamina that the two of you have demonstrated. Episode 33, I mean, yeah, that's no small thing. So well done. I've seen many podcasts, Wax and Wayne come and go, and so I, I really appreciate the persistence with this. So. Looks like you all, you're always having fun. So it doesn't look like it's hard work, but it's still, it's showing up in a certain way and, you know, getting, generating really invigorating conversations, Inspiring conversations.

Yeah.

Thank you. Thanks so much.

Yeah, go ahead, Rhett.

No, I mean, we got some areas to grow in, but I, one thing I love about the RT community is just connecting with everybody, you know, and there's so many people that we don't know, you know, or that we all know in separate areas. And so our, our hope is, I think, that we can have conversations over a long period of time with a lot of different people. And there's things I'm learning that, you know, I just didn't know and questions people are asking that I never asked when I first learned about rt. So it feels like an ongoing education, which is something I really appreciate.

Yeah, me too. Yeah, I, I hear that. No, I understand that. And I, I mean, because I'm teaching students every year and training them in rt, and I'm seeing sort of next generation. Next generation. I just keep thinking I, in, in a small corner of the RT world, you know, there's, there's this, there's this constant growth and Turnover of new students and trainees who are going out and continuing to take RT with them and implement that into their associateship practices. And that's so rewarding and exciting to see. And there's a sense that the. The arms can no longer reach around, you know, it's just. It continues to grow. So in my. Sort of in. In my small pocket, in my small little world, that's my experience. So when you say there's just so much more that you don't know and you're still learning, I. I feel that as well. And it's. It's a beautiful thing. You know, growth is a beautiful thing, and. But it's. It also can be challenging.

So true.

Yeah.

I'm thinking like, 15 years ago, I walked into a classroom with you in that very fresh, like, very. Not knowing much of anything, just really wanting to learn and. And to help people. And, man, I just. It's so crazy. I think about the. The application of growth along the way of, like, wow, that. That poor guy when he was first starting out, feel really bad for him.

What class was that?

I think it was Clinical Foundations.

Yeah, Clinical Foundations. I. I remember. I remember the class that I looked really young, and I would get really frustrated because I was older, older, and I'd be like, man, I just want to put gray in my hair. Like, so I look older and I get respect. Finally.

You may have showed up to lab and flip flops a couple of times. Oh, yeah, we have to have that conversation. You can wear flip flops here, but when you start seeing real clients, you were great. I mean, you know, Lance, that. I mean, that's. There's an example, that generative piece. To be able to see a former student grow into really, a leader in the therapeutic community. That is so robust and rich. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. So that's. That's. That's God's grace, and that's your persistence and your focus. So thank you for the work you're doing there.

Yes. Emphasis on God's grace.

For sure.

I think there's a story I haven't heard and that Myung. I'd like to hear, like, your journey. How did you get to rt? Like, I don't. I feel like you've always been around it. So I don't even know the genesis of how you came into contact with RT or Terry or how that all worked out.

Sort of my origin story.

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. So Terry and I joined the Fuller faculty the same year.

Oh, okay. So a year after I graduated, I left in 07. You came on in 08.

I came on in the 0809 year. And I say that way because I didn't physically move from Chicago until March of 2009. Okay. So I was joining faculty meetings. I wasn't teaching, but I was sort of officially part of the faculty. So Terry and I joined together and he joined in as a senior faculty. He came in as, you know, history of being a master therapist, recognized by WMFT as a master therapist and bringing in restoration therapy. I came in as a junior faculty member. And one of the contributions that I was really asked to bring with me was my specialization as a medical family therapist. But I didn't actually make the physical move until March of 2009 to Terry and Sharon's backyard was my front yard. So we live in very close physical proximity to each other. So Terry and I were colleagues at work, which was about two miles from our house. And then we shared life at home as well. So that was just this really, this beautiful way in which Sharon and Terry are both really mentors, not only to me, but to my family. Um, and so when I came to Fuller, I did not know about restoration therapy. Um, I learned about restoration therapy from Terry alongside as I'm sort of trying to get my sea legs as a new faculty member. Um, his first book was published, came out in 2011, same year that you, Lance, were part of that inaugural team or inaugural FLP faculty practicum. So that was just one of the most amazing innovations that Terry brought to our program was the faculty led practicum. And so he was teaching students and training students with clients in restoration therapy. So I started observing, I had his book, I read it, I started observing, I shadowed him in the level one training. And let me just say, when, you know, there's this theme of generativity. Alicia Starks was a participant in that level one training that I shadowed. She is now a colleague of mine who helps also teach RT at Fuller. So that's sort of a side story, but. And, and then in 2013, I started leading my own FLP and restoration therapy. So it was a pretty. I mean, it was learning by observation, learning by reading his book as it came out, having a lot of conversations with Terry, trying to understand, you know, the good old age, old self regulation, co regulation question. We were having that back then. How does, how would this model work with Asian American clients? How might I do use this model with my medft clients? And then I worked for a couple of years at Children's Hospital while While at Fuller, I just missed the hospital work, and this is the first time I really started applying RT in my MEDFT work, like, more intensively. I was working with concussion patients, and that. That sort of continued to deepen my. My conceptual understanding of rt. You know, we deepen our understanding and our knowledge when we keep applying it in new spaces and new places. Right. So. And by that point, though, I was already doing some writing. Terry, like. Like I said, Terry and Sharon were life mentors to me and to my family, but they also. Terry really was a mentor to me in my work as a new faculty member. He invited me to collaborate with him. He invited me to write with him. And so that gave me another way of having an opportunity to really intimately wrestle with and understand the model. When you have to articulate it, you have to write about. Requires a different set of learning skills. So there are all just these different angles that I was able to take on the model because Terry just kept inviting me to be part of that. He just kept inviting me to think with him, to think out loud, to. To collaborate in scholarship. But that's how I learned it, and that's how that really is my origin story. But it's an origin story not just about restoration therapy, but it's an origin story to so many ways in which really. And I know this is a theme that comes up a lot with your guests, but how my life has been changed and has been touched by the Hargraves. Just the ways in which they walked the talk of. Of the four steps and living out of truths and living with peace. And. So, yeah, that's. That's. That's the origin story.

Yeah.

For me. Yeah.

That's so crazy. I'm trying to imagine if Terry were my neighbor, that'd be. That'd be so funny. I. I remember going over their house and when. When I was a student to hang out, and I just remember being in the background or backyard and seeing your little.

Your.

Your.

Your little contingent all running around. Kids. So cute.

Yeah.

Who are.

No.

No longer little.

No, not at all. No. So they. They were very much a support as our youngest was born. He's a fuller baby, and they're his godparents, actually. And they've been such great mentors and a presence in his life as well. So. But yeah, I was just remembering, you know, my husband and I did a marriage strong group that Sharon led. Did either of you. Lance, did you do marriage strong, or do you participate in that?

You mean strong marriages, successful ministries.

That's right. I've already switched the label in my head. Yes, Strong marriage is successful.

Yeah, I remember doing it.

Yeah, I did.

It was.

I think when I did it, though, my wife and I came out from Dallas. It was at Pepperdine, and they let it. I think it was called Marriage Strong at the time.

Okay.

Like 2014 or somewhere around there. I'm not really sure. 15 or something. Yeah.

Yeah. So Sharon would lead these beautiful groups, and at the end of the evening, Terry would have a dessert that he had made, and we would sit around enjoying cake. That's something Terry and I share in common, is our love. And it was just Rich. I mean, that's them, right? They. They're. They invite you in and they nourish you, and with not a lot of pomp and circumstance, but just real good, salt of the earth people who know how to love well and know how to walk alongside people through hard things. So, yeah, that. That was part of the. The. The joy of being neighbors was being able to sort of have this con. Sense of continuity in the ways in which we were able to live life together.

So great. Terry would be, like, doing the dishes and, you know, like, you know, just hanging out, you know, and we'd be sitting around the table talking life.

So great. Yeah. They have these wonderful sayings that we still use. Like, Terry used to say, don't quit on a Monday. Miyoung. Like, you just don't quit on a Monday. And here's another one. He said, when in doubt, don't. I mean, they would tell us these incredible stories. Here's another intergenerational moment. Recently, my husband and I were making a pretty big decision about an investment. And we're going back and forth, and we're talking with the kids about it. And then a week later, we decided, you know, we're actually going to step away from this opportunity. But we're not sure. What do you think? So we call up our son, Asher. We're like, okay, we're thinking about this. And you know what he said? He said, mom, dad, when in doubt, don't. I thought, whoa, wow. I don't even know if he knows that that comes from the Hargraves.

Yeah.

But that has become sort of woven into, even for our family, how we, you know, this idea of slow down, when in doubt, don't. And I know that they have walked that talk in some of the, you know, most challenging circumstances. And such wisdom and sweet goodness that has come from that. And to. To hear my son 10 years later, reiterate those words. I just thought, oh, my goodness. Yeah, it's. It's really beautiful. That intergenerational sort of legacy of good wisdom passed down. Yeah.

All the isms. So, Rhett, where do you.

Where.

Rhett, where do you want to focus today? We have. We have the, like a very multi, like, gifted person and me young, here today. And what is on your heart, my friend? Like.

Like what's on my heart?

What do you think? What do you want the people to know?

Right.

You know, what the people need?

Well, I was actually reading my. One of your articles earlier this week from like, the Fuller Studio, and it was Healing, Healing where there's no Cure. And I looked at a couple other articles I was reading and obviously in, you know, Advanced Techniques and things shows up. But I was curious about, I don't know, the importance of theological integration for you and the work that you do. I know it informs, obviously, I think other areas that you're passionate about. The med. MFT stuff and also cultural. Cultural issues and diversity issues. And I don't know, I just. When I was reading your work and your interaction with different. Different theologians, I was. I don't know, I was just struck by the way that you were integrating those things beautifully. And I was wondering, I don't know, like, how important that is to you. Is that a frame like you said? You see RT and everything kind of. Is the theological integration also at the front center of your mind?

Yes. You know, as I was even reflecting on, just in preparation to talk with you too, I thought, oh, let me just take a little time to reflect on RT for me. And the two themes were integration.

Yeah.

And intergenerational or generativity. So when I teach on restoration therapy, I have the very humbling privilege of now teaching the marital therapy class that Terry Hargrave used to teach. And when I teach students about restoration therapy, I do say this is a therapeutic model that is effective with any, you know, client population that's Christian, that's not Christian. With the therapist that is Christian, not Christian. But at its. At the soul of this. I mean, the, the. Because the creator of the model is himself a believer, a Christian, it is inevitably infused throughout. You don't have to. You don't have to speak the Christianese language to be an effective RT therapist. But there's great potentiality to be able to pull from the theological truths that are embedded in restoration therapy. You know, we've talked about the old self, the new self, and what. How Paul talks about that to the Ephesian, the people of Ephesus. And in Colossians, we read those that very, you know, those rich passages. But this is. This is a deeply integrative model. I actually, I think one of the more profound points of connection that RT that I. That I made with RT in my metaf t work was exactly that phrase, healing where there is no cure. And the ways in which the RT model is not about curing pain. We know that on this side of heaven, there is no cure for pain. The expectation that we set up for our clients isn't that they will never be confronted with pain again, but it's about being able to put on the new self and to pivot and to make decisions to live out of truths. It's not about eliminating. It's not about curing pain, but it's about being able to live a life of restored identity and trustworthiness. And that's what healing is. And that was the work that I was doing as a medical family therapist for all the years prior to coming to Fuller. Most of my work was in oncology, both inpatient and outpatient. So a lot of the clients, or we would call them patients within the hospital context who I worked with, the reason why they were seeing me was either they were given a chronic diagnosis that probably was a progressive disease with no cure, or they were given a terminal diagnosis. And so my task with them, their doctors, were on a journey of trying to find a cure. But my task and my responsibility and my work as part of. Of that team was about trying to help identify ways to have healing in terms of their relationships amidst, in the midst of this new diagnosis or in the midst of a terminal diagnosis, or in the midst of sort of looking ahead to the long haul with a chronic illness, to be able to find healing and restoration of agency and voice in their own identities that had been suddenly sort of subsumed by the illness or the disability. There's a way in which, unlike hardly anything else in life, the loss of wellness in our bodies sort of strips us of the sense of control and sense of agency. There's a way in which, especially with the medical conditions that my clients were dealing with, their time and their energy and their spirit and their interpersonal energy even was absorbed and sort of consumed by everything about the disability or the illness. So restoring a sense of self and a sense of voice, when my clients would talk about, I feel betrayed by my body. How can we restore a sense of identity? And to be able to reimagine what this new normal with their body, with an illness with chronic Illness or maybe with a condition that will turn towards death sooner than they expected, how might they be able to restore a sense of self in the midst of that? How might they be able to restore capacity to connect? In medical family therapy, the two pillar goals are all that we do is about promoting agency and communion, right? So again, restoration therapy fits so beautifully into that. The sense of being able to promote a sense of restored identity and trustworthiness so that we can more reliably connect with others, connect with ourselves, but also connect with others. So this model was, this is beautifully, I could beautifully just map that right onto the work I was doing as a medical family therapists. Excuse me. So I, I, I've called it at times the sort of this, this idea of living out of peace amidst pain as the paradox of peace. And I, and in my teaching and in my own conceptualization I look back to, and I've written some of, about this, about the wounds that still remain in Christ's body after his resurrection. Being the prototype of new creation. Excuse me, being the prototype of being a new creation. He still bears the wounds of our sin. But the beauty of it is, and what we can learn from that is yes, we do on this side of heaven, live with pain and will always be confronted with pain. But the pain doesn't have to have the power it has had over us. It doesn't have to consume our identity. It does not have to control our sense of safety. That like Christ, the prototype of new creation that we aspire towards, we too can bear the scars of our pain. But live this resurrected life in truth. So good that is, that has been a theme that has undergirded my work as a medical family therapist and has, has continued to just really find deeper roots in the restoration therapy model.

I know people are probably like, they just rewound it. That part that you just said, could you say that line one more time about like that the resurrected, like it's such a beautiful line. Just. Yeah, I like gave me like the chills all over my body.

Yeah. I mean I, I, you know, we, we all know from this secular psychological literature that when we are wounded that those, those, the wounds, whether they be physical, emotional, psychological, like those, those wounds persist. Like what, you know, what we've been knowing about trauma. You know, the body keeps a score. Like there are some literal physical wounds and then there are those invisible wounds. And there's a ways, some, there are ways in which sometimes the invisible wounds can be even more insidious because they can easily be sort of Pushed away, unacknowledged, not dealt with. And yet they can. They will consume us. They will engulf us, and they can start to create a marred sense of identity. And those wounds. So the scars that we bear, that we have throughout our bodies and our minds and our hearts, they may not be. We may not be. We will not this side of heaven be able to be absolved of those wounds. But what it means to be a new creation and to live a resurrected life out of truth is not about being in the absence of wounds, but it's about being able to choose to live out of truths. And that Christ being really our exemplar of what it means to be new creation, does just that. I mean, I. I think I used to wonder, why did those. Why didn't his new pure, resurrected body continue to bear wounds? Was it simply so Thomas could believe?

Yeah.

And I mean that. That will be one of my questions when I. When I see Jesus. But I. I think that. I think it. Is this a way in which we are given an invitation to be known in our woundedness, but to be given a choice to live out of his truth and out of his love. So that the. The. You know, the invitation, it's not a mandate, it's an invitation. That's what we're doing with our clients. We're not demanding that they live out of their truths. We're encouraging them, we're equipping them, but we're inviting them to be able to make a different choice. So.

Love it. Yeah, I can see you going.

I was writing notes, and I like the distinction. Well, at least this is what I heard between healing and a cure, that there's a. That there's some things that can't be cured, but we can still find healing. And I was. You said it in a way that made me think. This is why. I guess what I appreciate about rt, that for me as a therapist, there's this tension. And I don't have to. I'm not responsible to fix everything or to heal everything, but it's my job or my calling, like you said, to encourage and invite people into the possibility of finding healing in the midst of their pain. And I just. I don't know that. I just. I love how that you communicate it, because there's just. There's a lot of pressure as a therapist to feel like you have to heal people when they're in pain in your office.

Yeah.

And I. Yeah, that's. That. That's. I was taking notes over here, and Lance, it just remained it reminded me of my favorite professor at Fuller during, When I was there, it was, was Dr. Ray Anderson. And he would do some integration work with some of the psychologists at the time. But it was pre RT stuff really. And I was thinking, oh, I would have loved if he would have been around at that time to do his integration stuff with the RT model, because it just fits. There's such richness from a theological perspective.

Oh, totally.

You know, so that's what my brain was thinking as well.

Yeah, well. And, and I think that, you know, when you, when you talk about, when you were a student, made me think about how when I'm teaching this to my students, I'm, you know, I, I love the self. The therapist work. That's always been one of the, I think, hallmarks of the work that I feel is my responsibility as professors, not just to dispense ideas and knowledge and skills, but for students to take this on themselves. So, like, when I do my flp, my students will, if they haven't already, they will construct their pain cycles and their pee cycles and, and we will talk about them with discretion and boundaries. I'll say, I want you to share. And then it becomes actually part of the work in supervision as well. It's not that we're working on their pain in supervision, but we're having conversations about. And the students start to develop a consciousness of the ways in which their own pain is being triggered in real time and how they, how that might have gotten in the way of their ability to make a different clinical decision. Or maybe this is where they got stuck because of the ways that they were triggered. Because they, they need to remember that it is not their responsibility and that they also too are humans in that room. Yes, professionals who have a responsibility that is different from what, what is happening with the client. And they need to learn to manage that, but to be aware of ways in which they are being triggered in their own woundedness and ways that's intersecting with what's happening with their clients. Sometimes even in that woundedness, it, it, it is giving them a hard time seeing their clients with compassion. Compassion. So to just, to even go back to the theological piece about, well, all clients, all people are image bearers. You know, this is how we, how does that inform the way in which we hold empathy? Empathy is not just clinical. Compassion is not clinical for a believer. It is much deeper. It is, it is much more expansive than just having unconditional positive regard. It's about, this is God's creation. I have the privilege of hearing the stories and the resilience of my clients, who are also God's creation, experiencing pain. I can understand that. I have my own pain. There's these moments of intersection, so. And I think I sort of went in a different direction there. But I was just thinking about the therapist piece and how the integration.

Yeah.

Learning and growth even happens in. In those spaces as well.

But, yeah, I always think about that, like, daring moment in therapy where you are totally wrecked in your pain cycle. And I remember Terry being like, you should probably try and use your four steps in the room. And when I do my four steps with my clients, and it totally changed the whole climate in the room. Something that would feel very vulnerable, typically, actually, I feel so strengthened in the moment to be able to just use my four steps with my clients when I'm. When I'm racked in my pain cycle.

Yeah. Well, that's amazing. So you mean out loud, you will articulate your four steps with your clients out loud?

Absolutely.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like a failure. What I normally do is I put on the song and dance with you. I do the performance, you know, or. Or I'll get angry with you, and I'll tell you why you're wrong. The truth, you know, God's called me. Like, I'm here. You know, I'm. I'm. I'm trusting that he's in control. So instead of doing the performance, I'm just gonna be myself.

Yeah.

I'm gonna be real and open with you right now. And it's just like, you know. Yeah. And then the empathy can come on instead of this like, yeah, this guy's a total jerk or whatever.

Now that's really cool. I think of that.

It sounds like there's a book in there for you, Myung, to write. Just all this stuff you just communicate. I was like that. I would love to read that book.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I have my. I have been thinking about writing about this paradox of peace, because I do. It is. I know I keep talking about threads I don't sew, but it's a thread that I do keep pulling on in my work is just this. It feels paradoxical. It doesn't seem. Sometimes it seems counterintuitive, but it. To. To clients. But I fully understand why it is actually so congruent with what it is that we're trying to do as therapists and in the pursuit of healing and. Yeah, I think, again, healing, where there's no cure. And I. I think that that's. That's a good Question for us to ask in terms of any therapeutic or any clinical situation or presenting issue, you know, what it means to are we trying to fix, cure the marriage, Are we trying to heal? And I think about usness is not curing their problems, but it's healing, connection and healing, visibility, restoring belonging and visibility in a relationship. It just, it's a different orientation. It, it's, there's some, it releases, I think therapists of the confines of what cure looks like sort of the, the boxes that need to be checked. And, and I, and I recognize that part, part of that framing or that paradigm in my mind is that's how it's done in the medical world. You know, once you're cancer free for five years, then you're considered cured. But you're not considered cured until all the diagnostic, I mean all the imaging and the scans come back cancer free for five consecutive, consecutive years. And then at that point you can check that box and say I am cured. But I'll tell you, if there hasn't been some healing work done along the way, I can't tell you how many survivors and cure cancer patients I've worked with who have said, I've never been more afraid, I've never been more afraid than when my doctor said I was cured. Because now they're not watching, they're not monitoring. I can't stop feeling anxious. I feel like it still plagues my sense of well being even though all the scans come out clear. And I think even when they've been indicated as cured, the ways in which their sense of well being and their inability, the absence of peace in the midst of these, these clear scans, there hasn't been healing. So you know, in my mind I've seen how, although those words are often used interchangeably experientially, they're two very, very different processes. And we as psychotherapists are in the work of healing, we ought to be the work of healing and not curing. And again, going back to restoration therapy, it's this beautiful, amazing model that, that really not just normalizes but equips clients, equips us to live life with that reality and that understanding.

So, so how do you like to do that then? If we have that client in the room, you know, that is in the moment, they've, they're cancer free, yet they're living with the fear of like nobody's watching. I don't know, like, you know, how do you like to encourage your students or even in your own work helping that client? You know, I mean, It's a very clear fear or pain we're dealing with.

How do.

Yeah, yeah, tell us about that place of helping them to apply this work to their lot, to their client.

Yeah. So I like the therapeutic work that happens in spaces of specificity and focus. So I'll say, can you give me, tell me about a time when you found yourself gripped with this fear. When was the last time, when was the most recent time you realize that you were actually really gripped with this fear? Tell me about that. And then they'll describe, I woke up, my heart was racing and I realized, oh, expletive, expletive. I've been cured of cancer and I am not resting, I am scared, I'm anxious. Okay. And then I'll zero in on that, that moment with them and do ask a lot of the good, you know, standard RT questions about when was the first time, maybe even outside of the cancer experience, maybe even when you were younger. Because what I'm trying to help the client understand is that there was probably a template for this coping reaction that predated the cancer. Now it's possible that it did not. And that's okay. I'll work with whatever, wherever we are, but I'll start to map that out and create that cognitive map about when you feel this or when you believe this. This is, you cope by being anxious. And this is how we understand how that began. And I'll just walk through the same steps that I'd walk through with a non medft client in helping them have insight about their pain, get them up out of their seat or even on the screen, getting them standing up to even talk about where in your body are you feeling that? Where can we hold that for a moment? I mean, I'll use those different interventions and move them to then creating their four steps. What often happens is it often does predate the illness or the medical condition. And they're beginning to connect that this is how they've been coping. This is this piece where they're, they're stuck. They feel like they're having this paralysis is actually not about the cancer. The cancer has been the biggest trigger of it. This actually predated the cancer. And we do know that to be the case that often illness exacerbates pre existing vulnerabilities within the family system or vulnerabilities within the individual. And they can either step away from that or they can confront it and actually try to do that work of healing. So I'm, I'm pivoting back and forth though. I'm Helping them get to their four steps. And I'm not, I'm not dismissing the medical issue or how this is manifesting in terms of the medical condition that they've dealt with. I'm normalizing that. I'm embedding my knowledge about the cancer experience. I'm intertwining all of that, helping them to sort of hold that space. What we know about survivors and the kind of anxiety and fear that is very prevalent for some cancer survivors, for example. And I'll use psychoeducation, so I'm doing a lot of that. I'm. I'm pulling in my med FTPs, I'm even talking about do. Would it be helpful to talk to your pcp? Would it be helpful to have another consultation with your oncologist to talk about likelihoods, probabilities? Can I have a conversation with your oncologist? Can I get your authorization so that I can have that conversation? Then I come back and say, this is what I heard, this is what I understood.

Smart. That's a good idea.

So that. Because with MET ft so much of our work is collaborative and so much of my ability to be effective with my client in terms of their, their psychological and interpersonal challenges is. It requires me to understand the illness itself. I'm not, it's not my scope of practice or competence to fully understand lymphoma or multiple myeloma or lung cancer, but I need a baseline knowledge about treatment and prognosis, things like that. So I bring that in as well. Because they're saying this is what I'm afraid of. So I, I won't dismiss that, but I'm helping them understand how, how actually the root of what's gripping you right now, it's not the cancer experience as much as it is this pain that you've been coping with that pre existed the cancer and now it is just, it's amplified because what you've experienced over the last five years, seven years, however many years, and then pull in family members if I can pull in the caregiver, send them to the cancer support community network where they can attend a survivor cancer support group. So equip them, but give them the four steps to learn about self regulation and understand what healing means separate from curing. Because that's what patients or clients will often be surprised about is why am I still dealing with the anxiety, I'm cured, or my, my most recent Ms. Episode is resolved and I'm back to full functioning. Why, why am I still, you know. Well, let's, let's Normalize this. Let's understand this, and let's further equip you with understanding the psychological piece and the interpersonal piece that likely has been there for some time and now with your insight and your agency to make a different decision, a different choice. You know, let's incorporate that into part of your wellness restored wellness regimen.

Nice.

Did that sound a little too clinical and.

No, I was in my.

Yeah, go ahead, Rhett.

No, I was in my head just thinking about when my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer in 81. So I was 6 years old and she passed away when I was 11. And then her mom had passed away a few years earlier and then my aunt later. And I just was thinking, gosh, it would have been so helpful to have somebody like you and someone in the profession of med mft to walk a family through, like, that whole diagnosis and that whole process and at the same time thankful that that exists today, but also like thinking, gosh, that would have been. That might have saved me years of therapy later in life, actually to have someone at that moment with the family, but it just. If it existed in 81, I was unaware of it, obviously, as a six year old. So, yeah, it's just, it's beautiful to hear that that, that exists where you can come alongside families and navigate their probably most painful times in their lives.

Yeah, I, I do, I. I really do love being able to journey alongside families through real. Really through medical crisis and individuals. And RT has helped me really feel so much more grounded in my, in the work that I do with my. With my clients. Um, yeah, yeah. You know, I talk about healing where there's no cure. I'm. Without saying too much in detail, I. I recently lost a client to death. Actually. I learned of it as I was driving our daughter to Wisconsin from Chicago. And the last appointment, the last time I was supposed to see her, she had to, they. She had to cancel because there was an opportunity with a medical procedure and it was a medical procedure that had gone awry. But she was referred to me to do this work for like six months by her medical team because they, they knew that the journey would be a pretty intense one. And so much of our work over six months was about healing, healing and all healing in her relationships, healing in her sense of self. Very little was about. I mean, there was the fear of loss of life and what would happen to her young family. So it is, it is very. But it is such an honor to be able to journey alongside people.

Who.

Are confronted, you know, with a reality of never being cured, but are courageously opening up their hearts to be healed in ways that aren't, that they would, they didn't necessarily know they needed to be healed in, they didn't, they didn't go to their doctor thinking I need to be healed in my marriage. But their doctor said, hey, this is going to be hard. This is going to be a hard procedure. Seek some therapy to prepare yourself. And so it's, it's beautiful, it's, it's a beautiful space that I, I don't take for granted. You know, the illness and the potentiality of loss of life is, is the one thing that we all humans are confronted with. Nobody is exempt, nope from the, the challenges of illness, you know, anywhere from the common cold to progressive or a chronic disease or a terminal disease. You mean we, we are in these amazing, beautiful, God created bodies that are also just very vulnerable and finite. So it is an area of life that no one is exempt from. And I do count it a privilege to be able to walk alongside people who are, who are finding the courage to try and live through that with as, as much peace and healing as is possible.

What a gift. I mean just thinking about, you know, certainly I'm sure your client like that to, to not be known as a disease that we known as a person. The way that we get to hold people in the midst of, you know, every time they go to a doctor, it's about the pain and the suffering. But we offer something so much deeper and so thankful for the work we get to do that we, you know, I think about, you know, Christ when he's like you, whenever you did this for the least of these was the prisoner, the sick, the, the stranger like you did that for me. And, and that's that thing, that soul that we get to embrace every single time. I'm just so thankful for.

The work.

That you do and the way that you've poured into us as students over the years and just love your passion and care for people.

Thank you. Thank you.

I think let's stop here today you guys because I, I, I know being therapist, I know Lance has to cut off a little early today and then.

Also now I have to go cry about all my clients and young too.

When we get off this podcast, we'll circle back to you because we, we really would love to have you come back on to talk about some other things that I know that you're passionate about that I think are really important to our work and important to rt. And so yeah, we, I was over here busy taking notes. There's a lot of things I'm going to sit on today that you were thinking about, so I really appreciate that. If people wanted to check out what you do or connect with you, is there a best place for them to do that?

Sure. I mean, if they want to connect with me, they can email me at immunehammeruller. Edu.

Okay.

I'd be happy. I do a lot of medft RT consultation, actually, mostly my students who become alums who come back and say, hey, I just have this quick question. I love that work. I love that work. So I'd be happy to even just provide some consultation.

But yeah, I'll put that email in the show notes as well as some articles from you and some of the other people that we've mentioned in your faculty webpage and other stuff too. And we'll look forward to having you on again again soon. I appreciate you joining us today.

Thank you so much. Good to be with you.

Thank you. Bye, guys.

Cheers.