Season 1 | Episode 34 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Migum Gweon

Lance.

What's up, Rhett? Oh, my gosh. How you doing, brother?

Episode 34.

34. We're at 34, bro. And can we just get a good shout out today? I mean, I think we got a.

Shout out for our brother, R. Smith.

R.O. smith is the man.

Yeah. For those who don't know, we've run into some sound issues on occasion. And yeah, Ro offered. I've known Aro since 2002 when we started. He was at Bel Air Perez when I was there. He was. He's a Fuller. Him, his wife are Fuller grads. Also, he offered. Hey, I'll. I'll come on and just check your guys sound and do some editing on the back end. So he's been helping us out with things. And him and Lance know each other now.

Yeah, it's so crazy. He and I had so many different, like friends from back in the day. Like that interlock between both my visits at Fuller. And then, you know, he's at Point Loma Presbyterian Church or Point Loma Presbyterian now. Yeah. And just a really great. I mean, how do you find such a solid guy like Ro is what I want to know.

Him and Megan Eakin worked at the same camp in Michigan during the college years.

Yeah. Full circle, guys.

Yeah. So he's. He's been interested in rt. He's a pastor who's been listening to the RT stuff and he's gone down the rabbit hole. So shout out R. Also, if you are listening, whatever you're listening on itunes, Spotify, wherever, we appreciate it. And if you have a few moments, maybe go on and leave a nice five star comment. Right, Lance?

Yeah, or four and a half. I mean, you know, I think there's always room for improvement.

Okay, that's all we got for now, so. Oh, where'd our guest go? I hope she pops back on here. We'll give her.

Should we. Should we riff for a little bit?

Yeah, we'll just riff here until she pops back on.

Yeah. So tell me. I. I am not good in the podcast world. Like, I don't. Like, tell me why, like having subscribe, like what the deal is with subscribers and all that. Like, what's the deal with that?

I mean, I've never asked.

It's not like we make money off of this thing. No.

And I've never actually asked an anyone for any podcast that I've ever done to do that. But people say if you do leave a comment, it helps other people find you. It like the algorithm. So people are looking for certain things. The podcast and, you know, we. We're not interested in numbers, but we are interested in, like, spreading the word of how great RT is.

Dude, totally agree.

You know?

Totally agree.

So besides that, I'm really looking here. I'm hoping our guest pops back on any second because she's awesome. Yeah.

Dude, why don't you tell a story? I'll work on texting her right now.

Yeah.

What's the flow?

Yeah. So this is what happens when you have some dead time in the podcast world. I'll tell a little story. So. And that's going to be an ongoing story. We are now a little over three. No, no, let me think. We're about four. Three or four weeks after dropping my daughter off at college. And it's interesting how different guests we've had on and different people listening have been sending me pearls of wisdom about that whole experience of, like, transitioning your kids into college and to other areas of life. So it's been great within the RT community to have people in different stages of life to come along and say, hey, you know, we've been through this, or we're about to go through this, and here's some. Some wisdom or some things that we've learned. And yeah, it's been super helpful. And it's also like, one of the things I shared in the podcast of, in terms of how RT has really influenced me was when we first stepped foot on my daughter's college, just as a visit was I had this feeling that this is an environment that promotes love and trust. And. And it just felt like a safe place. And so I've been, like, thinking about that in other contexts a lot outside of college. Just what communities, when you step into them, you have this sense of, like, this is, man, a loving place and this is a trustworthy place. And so that's been, like, interesting, like, navigating that the last, I don't know, several weeks with the RT community.

Dude, it's so important to just have people in our lives that we are connected with. I think. I think. I always think about pastors and I think about therapists. Our jobs get so lonely so quick.

Yeah, they do.

Like, we. We take that. You know, when you have that place of, you know, confidentiality or, like, where you're one way, like, it just. It gets really lonely really quick. And I think one of the things about RT dialogue for me is just. Just to have a whole crew. I mean, I think that's probably the big reason why I have a whole therapy practice is mainly so I can help my Team. My team can help me with all my neuroses.

Yeah. Looks like our guest is coming back in here. We'll. I love this.

Wait for it.

Today. This is just.

Oh, I see it. I saw the dots. There she is.

Yay.

Hello. Can you hear us? I can. Yes.

All right, cool. I think it's. You just got to do the intro now because everyone's wondering who this, like, mystery guest is.

Mystery guests, guys. Today we have no mystery at all in the world of rt. If you have gone through fuller at all in the past, I don't know, 15, 20 years, you probably have heard of a very amazing woman by the name of Megham. And is it. Help me with the last name. I've screwed up too many last names.

Guan.

Guan.

Yes. Gwan. Yes.

Y. All right.

I. I. Guan Meum has been such a gift to the RT community with, you know, she. She did the clinical practicum placements for. For a lot of people and for us as, like, recruiting and finding good people. Megum's always been so wonderful with people. Whenever you say Megum's name with. With people, they instantly light up and like, oh, so, Miga, I'm so glad you're here. She's a practicing therapist in Nevada right now, but she has primarily California cases, and she's got some interventions for us to work on today. Guys. Yeah, we're excited.

Welcome to be here. Thank you. So excited to be here with both of you. Thank you.

You really put Lance and I through our podcasting host paces. A second ago when you dropped off, we were like, People are like, oh, great. I don't want to listen to a whole podcast of Rhett and Lance bantering about stuff. So, so excited to have you on for sure.

Which doesn't this happen in the therapy world, like, when you're. This is like the downside of online therapy, like, when things just go sideways. Right. And you're, like, exactly trying. Yeah. Technical difficulties are also pain. Pain cycle inducing.

They have.

And if people were at the summit, I think they experienced a really beautiful. What was it? Would you call it a demonstration? Even though it wasn't really a demonstration, Megan, it was with you and Terry and Michael and you, Lance.

That's right.

Doing a therapeutic intervention that just, like, I think had the whole room, like, captivated. Just really. I mean, between Megham's vulnerability and sharing her own story and stuff and the work of all of you who were doing the intervention on the floor, it was like, a really powerful moment that sticks out to me. As like, a really, like, a highlight of that whole summit.

Wow. She was really brave.

It was amazing. I think. Yeah. I'm sure it was supposed to be a demonstration, but I got free therapy from three of the best. And what's also really amazing, I mean, as I was walking away from that experience, I mean, just my heart was so full, and I really received healing from all three of them. But what was really amazing was that with the same pain, with the same pain cycle, I was able to experience three completely different interventions and styles. And, you know, I thought that was what was so great, too.

That's exactly what I was hoping to do. When we. When we talked about the live demonstration, I was like, I want to show that when people come in with a pain cycle, like, what would it be like? Let's say, let's. Let's show, like, the exact same. Like, we all have different personalities, different ways, different flows. Let's show, like, how we can work through this with all of our, like, different personalities. And I really felt like that was on display.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And is it really an ever demon? Is it really ever a demonstration when, like, Terry's in the room? Does it ever not go, like. Like, real therapy?

Yeah.

Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah.

Take my heart, baby.

Megan, tell us about. You know, one of the things we're always interested in is, like, how did people get to rt? Because we all come from, you know, different roads, different pathways to get to this model that we love in this community. So if you don't mind, share with us, like, what's that journey has been like for you? How did you, you know, come. How did you come to rt, discover it, and what is it that you love about it?

Oh, my goodness. So I started my MFT journey at Fuller in the MFT program the same year that Terry and Sharon came to Fuller. So that was in 2008. So they came to Fuller. And so in class, Terry shared about the. The RT model. So I guess we were his first, like, guinea pigs on that front at Fuller. And then I think after I graduated, although I was in. I worked in counties, I worked at dmh, Department of Mental Health. But I wanted to. I knew that I always wanted to go into private practice later. And so I was trying to get skills and, you know, start opening up my private practice on the side. And so that's when I sort of reviewed RT level one, RT level two, sort of got back into things at that point, because you can't really. It's hard to use RT in the Department of Mental Health. Setting.

Yeah, I remember I used to. I used to work at the San Diego Vet center, and I would, like, literally, I would be using CBT words in my notes, you know, alternative beliefs.

Like.

Yeah. So I would use all their language of CBT to, like, make it sound like it was that.

But.

Yeah.

So smart.

It's hard.

So smart.

Yeah.

So I did that. And I have. Oh, my God. Goodness, like, level two training with Terry and Sharon. Just amazing, amazing, amazing. So that's sort of like, how I got back into it. And then starting my private practice, really focused on my work with couples. I found that, like, that's my favorite thing is working with couples. Love working with couples. So primarily use rt. I can't. I've told Terry this so many times, but I. I don't know what kind of therapist I would have become if. If RT didn't exist. Like, I cannot imagine using another modality. I can't imagine using anything other than rt. So whether I'm using RT with my couples or even with individual work, it's always a systemic thing anyway. And so I'm always bringing rt. It's my main roadmap. It's the way that I understand things. It's the guides, my interventions. Yeah, everything. I love it. Yeah.

That's great. There was a lot of people. It sounds. I was just thinking, you know, a lot of people kind of came around that same time, that 2008, right. When Terry was coming on.

So Mia Newhammer, she also started. Yeah, yeah. Last week.

Sharing that as well, like, kind of around the same time. It seems like a lot of. There's a lot of synergy around that group at the same time. Coming in.

Yeah. Were you in Andrew's cohort, too?

Yes. Andrew last.

Okay.

Yes.

Nice. Andrew is my surf buddy. We surf every Monday together, so.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Was. Was there something about art? Like, I'm always curious if there's, like, there was one aspect or one moment where you're like, yes, this. Every mix. This is why I love rt. This is why everything clicks. This is why I'm going down this pathway.

For me, I think I am. How do I say this? So, you know, in. In couples therapy, we in the class, we learn rt, we learn eft. There's, you know, and there are lots of other modalities. I think the reason why I gravitated towards RT is, first of all, I need things to just be very simple, and I need things to make sense, you know? And I think for me, trying to, like, understand eft, There were just too many steps. It was too much for me. Like, and it didn't. It didn't click for me the way that RT does. Like, I mean, I joke and I say, you know, I just don't think I'm smart enough to do the EFT thing because there are too many steps. But I think probably a better way of saying that is I love the simplicity. Everything just sort of clicks and makes sense. And I love how RT speaks to both to the emotional experience as well as the logical, rational experience as well. That really clicks for me, too, I think, too. And Terry speaks of this too. I love how it presents an equal opportunity for both people that are in this pain cycle. They have an equal opportunity to stop the pain cycle. It also, in working with couples, and it also sort of assigns equal blame. You know, how when couples come, there's always a little bit of a. Generally, one partner is more bent on making sure that the therapist says it's the other person's fault, you know?

Yes.

And so our team just sort of equalizes all of that. It's like, okay, equal opportunity to share the responsibility and equal opportunity to say, stop that cycle anytime. So I love it.

It's awesome. Yeah, I. I think that's a great. Those are great observations there of. Of it. Equal opportunity. You both suck. That's what Mike Bishop would say.

Mike Bishop would say that. Yeah. He probably has a sign up in his office that says that. Oh, you know, Megan, I've heard you, you know, talk about things over the last couple years that you're really passionate about, you know, and, you know, one of the things that I've. I've picked up on, you know, and we can talk about this if you want, but, like, it seems like inter, like intergenerational issues, especially between, like, in the Asian culture. I don't know, between, like, first gen, second gen are different things. Is like something that you're really passionate about and, and gifted at. Am I. Am I correct there? I feel like that comes alive when I hear you talk.

Yeah, I love working with that. I mean, so even though I'm. I'm living in Vegas, I'm licensed in California and Nevada, and my clients that are coming from both, they tend to be Asian. I think there's the affinity, the understanding of the culture. So with my caseload, I think I have like 95% Asian clients. So working with the Asian community and within that, even primarily the Korean community, there are very specific cultural understandings that are super helpful in working with our Asian clients. And one of them is that first gen, second gen dynamic. And so what we're talking about there is that the first gen, when we refer to that, primarily in the Korean culture, but also in a lot of the other Asian cultures, first gen is referring to the first generation of folks that actually immigrated over to the States. And so for those first gen folks, their primary culture is actually from another country outside the U.S. now, second gen, what we're referring to are the folks who were born here. So when we're talking about cultural conflict. Right. A lot of that comes from the fact that, let's say my parents, for example, my parents grew up in Korea and they have all of the, the traditional Korean cultural values. They're, they're steeped in that. They bring that over. And then although I was born in Korea, I'm still going to, I call myself a one point fiver. Right. So what that means is no clean stories out there. Exactly. So it's a thing for, for Korean culture. So I'm a 1.5. To be super technical, I'm a 1.7 fiver. Wait, 1.2 fiver. And it's because I came when I was five. And so depending on when you came over, it actually informs a lot of where your cultural mindset is. So someone who comes over when they're five, that experience is very different from if they came over when they were 16 or if they came in their adult years. And so the cultural conflicts that could arise from having one family that has grown up in several different cultures with different cultural expectations, the younger folks, let's say the second gen, they're probably speaking English and assimilating. And for them, like, the assimilation process isn't really called assimilation because this, you know, they're American, they're growing up in American culture, they're breathing and eating all of this, you know, everything that's around them. Whereas the first gen, they're still coming in with a different mindset. So it gets very interesting within the couples and the families that I work with because of those dynamics. Everything from in law conflict to how come I can't go to that sleepover when all my friends are. Or prom or, you know, just ideas from the culture that, that informed that whole experience. Yeah, yeah.

I was, I was wondering, like, you know, through RT and, you know, Terry came. Comes from this intergenerational model. Were there things that you picked up in RT or in Terry that made it, I guess, more, more appealing to the work that you wanted to do in terms of intergenerational Stuff, intercultural stuff.

That's a great question. I, you know, I, I look back at Terry's model of forgiveness when, when he talks about. Let me see if I have this straight. It's insight, understanding.

Opportunities for compensation opportunities.

And then overt forgiveness.

Right.

So those, those four steps that resonates so much within sort of like the Korean Christian cultural context. Meaning that the way that, like, especially perhaps Korean church, the way that they, or maybe church in general is, you know, they really focus on that over forgiveness portion. Right. If you're a Christian, you should forgive. And this is what forgiveness looks like. But the, the first two stations of forgiveness, I think this is where there has been so much healing and forgiveness and freedom that comes because there are times when you still have to maintain boundaries and boundaries within. I think Korean culture, Asian culture looks different, but I think that's the. So the ways that, that the stations of forgiveness really just opened up more, More freedom, more opportunities for healing, that, that, you know, it just created so many more opportunities for us to feel peace, to really feel the experience of forgiveness without having to do overt forgiveness. Because you can't. There. You're in situations where you really can't do that overt forgiveness. So whereas before, they would feel very guilty and stuck, that now is gone. And so that's, that's been amazing to be able to use that within the intergenerational dynamics.

Yeah, I, Yeah, so when we're looking at the RT model, like, you know, the families and Forgiveness is such a great book. Forgiving the devil is kind of like your, like, what's the word? Layman's kind of journey through forgiveness. And yeah, I, I find that the insight elements, where it's all about your internal work, about how you're working through your own stuff, that was so liberating for me too. I, I just find it to be just the moment I was able to not focus in on the dynamics between, but like, what's going on inside of me and how it affects everyone else around me and stopping the cycle and like, operating out of compassion, it just changed my whole dynamic. So, yeah, I think, you know, that station of insight, you know, where you asked that big, big question because I've been hurt, how in turn am I hurting other people? Dang, that's hard to look at. And then the station of understanding, I still remember Terry saying, like, where he's like, hey, had I gone through what you've been through, I don't think I would have done any better. And I think that broke me I think that really broke me when I started looking at things from that perspective. It's so hard, but slowing it down and being like, oh, okay, like, for me to be made well and to love and actually be the human that God's calling me to be, I actually have to recognize the humanness and other people. Yeah. So I'm with you.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And we use a lot of that in the pain cycle too. Right. Like being able to put ourselves in the other person's shoes. And that's really where we gain a lot of empathy, understanding.

Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Model really captivated me. Years ago, I think I was introduced to the hideaway experience. Someone had pulled out the model, the insight, understanding, opportunities for compensation over forgiveness. I've never forgotten that. I use that a lot in my work. It's such a good.

It's just.

Yeah. Such a good framework in helping people navigate and putting. Putting language to things that are really hard to put language to.

Yeah. Yeah, I think. Good.

No, I have another question, too, because I'm. I'm curious. You know, it's been a while since I was at Fuller. The last time I was there, I graduated in 2007. And I don't. You know, I don't have exact statistics on me, but there was this significant pop. Significant population of people. Of people from Korea, both in the School of Theology and World Missions at the time, and the School of Psychology specifically. I think I want. I mean, I would say 60% of my class. MFT was probably. Was probably. Was probably from Korea. And so I was wondering about just the. The culture in terms of the acceptance of, like, therapy and therapeutic work and doing that type of. Because, you know, we have conversations on this podcast where people will talk. In certain cultures, going to see a therapist is not. It's not looked upon as something you do. And so I'm just curious, and I don't want to stereotype a culture, but I'm just curious, in terms of the Korean culture, if getting help. Going to see a therapist is generally looked upon as something that one. Does that make sense?

Yeah. No, no.

It's.

It's a complicated.

It's.

It's a complicated dynamic. And part of that is that. Oh, how do I want to say this? So in Korea, I think the advancement of mental health has actually gone much faster than the Koreans who have immigrated here in the States. That's a very broad term that I just said out loud. Here's why is because when we look at the effects of Immigration, on a family, on a social group. They come over and what happens is they have. So, for example, my parents, they immigrated in 1978. So when they immigrated in 1978, everything sort of froze for them. They now entered into this time capsule, in a sense. And so all the cultural or ideas about the social dynamics, all their values, all their beliefs, it's sort of like. It's sort of like frozen time. And I think because of the hardships that they face when they are immigrating, I think what happens is that they hold onto what they know and what they believe, their cultural identity, their cultural thoughts, their values, and they hold onto those probably a little bit more. Right. So there's. So what starts setting in is some levels of rigidity, because this is what they know, this is what is safe, you know, within anxiety. Right. It makes sense, right? Like, if you're feeling very, very anxious, you're going to enter into a world of either control or escape. And so this is their way of reacting to the anxiety, which is to control and to hold on tighter to what you know, your values. So in a sense, they become more strict in their ideas. That's a very long way of saying, in 1978, there was a huge stigma, there was probably very little information actually on mental health or accessing mental health. And so that's sort of the mindset that they all come over here, here with. And so there's less change, there's less room for change. So the folks here, and I'm part of this other nonprofit that is really working on breaking down the mental health barriers, the stigma within, specifically Korean churches, and that, you know, just the Korean church community, population, because we are working on the assumption that when they immigrated, they all sort of came and then everything froze. And so there isn't this. Whereas in Korea, things continue to evolve and change. And they're not talking about aid change, because nothing has. They're not dealing with any sort of immigration issues, those anxieties that come from immigration. And so in Korea, things just continue to develop and develop. And so there is a huge, I think, a much broader openness to mental health, accessing mental health. It's very common. One of the things that's fascinating is in Korean dramas, it is prevalent, like, you will see people talking about going to therapy or accessing therapy or themes about mental health, specific mental health illnesses. It is very common to see those. Yeah, it's common to talk about it. So Korean has definitely evolved at a much faster pace than the Korean community here, largely due to Immigration. Yeah.

So fascinating. Just.

I know I was taking a bunch of notes because you're talking about anxiety, too, and like. Like, which something Lance and I talk a lot about or RT does, and just how the culture, like, it just makes so much sense, you know?

Yeah.

To. To want to move towards control, you know, and stuff. When you're in an environment that is.

Foreign, you know, there's a resistance to change. You. You hold tighter to what you already know.

That's just so wild. Like, you know, you leave this place, this land that you're familiar with, and you go into this new foreign land. You're trying to find yourself there, holding on to your principles that. That you were so familiar with, but in this land that you're in is growing and doing its thing, but you're kind of like, well, that's not the way we do it. But meanwhile, the way that you. That it used to happen is actually being expanded, like, and growing. But you're kind of stuck in this weird, like, limbo land of, like, you know, it's like going back to your old. I. I grew up in Virginia, like Yorktown, Virginia. Like, I go back there now and I'm like, they changed everything. What happened, you know, and that's like a. Such a light response compared to that, you know, Yalls experience. It's so fascinating.

Yeah.

It's interesting too, because I was thinking you. The light bulb went on my head about all the clients that I work with that love to watch K, I guess you.

K dramas.

K. K dramas, essentially. And these are my. These aren't. These are mostly Caucasian clients that I'm referring to how they love these K dramas. And I probably was thinking maybe there's something in watching another culture access emotional, doing emotional work that is, like, really empowering to see when maybe your own culture doesn't do that, you know. But I was like, maybe this is why some of my clients are really drawn to those K dramas, because they come in my office and talk about it a lot and they're always recommending different ones that I should watch.

What are the top ones?

Yeah, no, so I. I was gonna say if there's one K drama you're gonna watch, I would say you need to watch. There's one called Tangerines. It's called when life gives you Tangerines. I think that's the title of it.

Okay.

It is. It's on Netflix and it is. It is amazing. If. Yeah, if you're just going to watch one, I would say that one and be prepared to Have a box of Kleenex next to you. It's a multi generational story, and it really. It incorporates. There's a historical context to it, so you'll see that, and you'll see how that sort of affects culture and family dynamics. You'll see the tension between all the different generations. It is so beautiful. And there are a lot of moments of boundaries and boundary setting. There's. There are themes of honor and respect and healing and what healing actually looks like. It is so beautiful.

I'm sold.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead.

One of these days, we're gonna get RT in the Wild up and going, and I think when life gives you tangerines is definitely gonna be on the menu. And I think Megan's gonna be the. The guest that day. That sounds awesome.

I mean, I have had so many of my clients bring. Bring it up. Bring it up in therapy. Like, oh, my gosh, when this happened, you know, and they're convincing other people to watch it, it really swept. Swept. I think now I can even say that it was like a global thing. Like, it really swept all of Korea, all of the US and probably all over the world, too. Just a really beautiful, beautiful story.

Excited about this? Cool.

Yeah, that's. I don't know if you knew, Megan, but one of our RT colleagues, Justin Little, wants to start a podcast called RT in the Wild, which looks at, like, movies and TV shows and music and where you see, like, RT and pain and peace cycles showing up, like, in entertainment type stuff. Yeah, we're like, that's a great idea.

Yeah. K dramas are full of them. Full of wonderful examples of pain and pee cycles.

That's awesome. Yeah, I love that. You know, Lance, I think we should shift because one of the reasons, not one, the only reason, but one of the things that we've been discussing behind the scenes with Megham is she's got some interventions which we love. Interventions that we're all learning new interventions. And I want to. We want to give time for her to. To share these interventions and for us to practice them. Does that sound good? Can we shift that direction?

Yeah, let's do it.

Okay.

Amiga wanted to do therapy on one of us.

Who needs it more? That's the question. No, I'm just kidding. So this first intervention, I don't even know what to call it yet. I've been calling it the I feel versus I am intervention, or sometimes I'll call it the transition activity. You guys can help me find a name for it. But here's a way that I use it is. I use it after the client has finished the pain cycle and we're now transitioning into the peace cycle. I do this little intervention. That's why I was thinking transition activity. But basically, it's the I feel versus I am. Here's what I do. So I will. I will. You guys will be my clients, and we'll do a little. We'll do it. We'll just do the demonstration. Right? So, Rhett, Lance, I want you to just think of recent times. Recent times when you have felt incompetent.

Right?

So. Because what we're trying to do is we're trying to. We're trying to sort of tap into that feeling of being incompetent. So, like, you know, maybe it was some balls that you dropped, some mistakes that you made. You forgot to return a call, you forgot to do a task item. You missed a deadline. And just sort of, you know, let those memories come into your mind and just feel that feeling. Just connect with that feeling. I feel incompetent. And then when you're ready, say out loud, I feel incompetent.

I feel incompetent.

Yeah. And we're just going to spend a few more minutes just really accessing that feeling. So maybe there's one particular memory that really sits with you that resonates with that feeling, or maybe you want to draw on a few more, you know, ways that you felt that feeling. And let's just really connect with that feeling again. I feel incompetent. And say it aloud when you're ready.

Yeah.

I feel incompetent right now.

I feel incompetent.

One last time. I feel incompetent.

Man, this is vicious.

I feel incompetent.

I feel incompetent.

And now say, I am incompetent.

I am incompetent.

I am incompetent.

Okay, now tell me what happened. What was that experience like when I had you say, I am incompetent? Right. You want to start first?

Well, I mean, I paused because I don't believe that to be true. So, like, I can get behind the idea that I feel incompetent at times. Times. But as an RT therapist, like, I know that my truth is not that I am incompetent. Like, as a person, as a human, that. That's not my identity. So it kind of. I didn't. I didn't want to say it. Really.

Yes, yes. So you said it only because Migum asked you to, essentially, that. But there was something in your brain that sort of Pushed back and said, nope, that's not true. Lance, what about you? Did you feel that, too?

Well, mine was. I was, like, going back to this moment yesterday, surfing, which some days I am incompetent surfing surfer. So I could. I could hold that moment with my surfability, but it was hard for me to, like, put that in the global scale. Yeah, we had some.

What?

We had some surfer talk yesterday. That's what my buddy said. We having some surfer talk right now.

So what?

I'll.

What? I. I think it's quite common when. When I lead other folks through this exercise, that you would feel this sort of pushback. So we can all resonate with this feeling of feeling incompetent. Right? We are here. Humans. We make mistakes. And then I think, too, like, as human beings, it's the feelings that we feel are. Are part of us being human beings. We don't. We. We can't. We feel them because we are human beings. We're not calling on them. They just happen. These feelings just happen. Right. And so when we feel incompetent. Yeah, you can resonate with that. The moment you say, I am incompetent, Rhett, like you said, it is now an identity state. And the. The hell I would. What I would say is the healthy brain should push back on that, should kick back. Why? Because immediately you're like, wait, I'm not incompetent. I am so Rhett. Lance, what are you. I am. What. What's your brain saying?

I'm on the journey, getting better.

Yeah.

I would just say I'm. I'm. You know, I always go to, like, I'm adequate. I'm more than adequate. I'm more than competent.

Yes, yes. And you're smart and resourceful and. And successful, and you're resilient. And, I mean, there are all these truths that you are saying because your brain said, nope, that's not true. Now feels better. If you were to look at your pain cycle. I feel unheard. I am unheard. I feel disrespected. I am disrespected. I feel misunderstood. I am misunderstood. When you look at your pain cycle, you may not feel a kickback from your brain. They may feel almost indistinguishable. And that is because we have had so many experiences, experiences that have created all of these feelings that are already on our pain cycle. We resonate so much with them. And because we resonate so much with them, we have started probably without our knowing, we have started weaving those into our identity. And that is why you can't really feel the difference between I feel something versus I am something. It's because we've made it part of our pain cycle.

Yeah.

So now what we're going to do is we are going to recapture and reclaim the truths. So as we transition into the peace cycle, we are now going to identify truths that we want to hold on to. Right. So that our brain will also feel similarly, that there will be this kickback, that now every time there's the pain cycle, the feelings come up. We will say, nope, that's not true. We're reclaiming our truths. And that is how. So that's actually how I transition them into the pain cycle. Here's what that pain cycle looks like. Here's why we are doing the truths. And then when they've experienced this and they experience, experience the healthy brain sort of kicking back and pushing back, then as we start testing it and practicing the four steps, they know what they want. Like, they can now understand what the goal is. They want to get to a place where they can feel that difference again. So I love that because it sort of like, prepares the path for going into the cycle. It gives, like, a very concrete purpose to the pee cycle, but it's also an experiential thing and it hardly takes any minutes.

Well, because, like, I know Lance and I have worked on our pain and pee cycle a lot over the years. Right. So I can feel that idiot, like, pushback. Do you notice that with clients who maybe are new to the pain and pee cycle, it's new to them that. That there's like an innate pushback against, like. No, that's not who I am. Or do you introduce this later on? You know what I'm saying? After you kind of.

Yeah. No, I literally use it prior to doing the peace cycle. So these folks are not familiar with their truths. Right. And here's why I've specifically used in that incompetent is because I have found. I've tried others over the years. I've tried other words for this example, but I have found that everyone can connect with the feeling of being incompetent. Again, we're human. We make mistakes. So that's an easy one to connect to. And then I would say, I don't have any hard data, but I would say, like, 90% of my clients, they're like, wait, Megan, that's not true. Why? Because they have enough lived. Experience. Experience to say that they're not incom. So this one works. Yeah, simply because, you know, now. Now I will say for that smaller percentage of the population where they're like, oh, I don't. I don't feel a difference. Right. Then that gives you information that they. Their. Their levels of insecurities or sense of self is significantly damaged. Right. And so it. It shows you sort of where that starting place is. And then I just. I normalize and I say, yeah, that's okay. If you didn't feel the difference, that just means that that has been woven into your identity probably at a very young age. And so then we unpack that and we. We do some inner child work, some reparenting work. Yeah. But for the most part, people will have a healthy pushback, even if it's slight. They can feel that difference. They're like, oh, I don't want to say that. That's not true.

It's like a good intervention at the beginning of the work. It sounds like, almost just to, like, identify, like you said, a person's where they are in terms of their sense of self. And then the beauty of it is, well, if they do, whether they recognize it or not, then. Then pain and peace cycle obviously lays out a pathway for them to practice, to. To move into that strong sense of self identity. Yeah, I like that. I'm gonna try that out this week. Yeah.

I feel like it also unlocks agency for clients. Like, there is a sense for, like. And I think that's one of the big things with. As we move to the peace cycle that we have to do is, like, finding that agency. And, like, I was working hard. Like, I hated saying I'm incompetent, but then I was able to, like. I was, like, only able to put in that one frame of where I was like, okay, I can say it here.

So that was the only crazy thing that's. The thing that's wild is, like, we're all therapists. We know she's trying something out on us. So we're kind of, like, in our heads thinking about it. And yet it still caught me off guard. Like, I was like, no. Like, that's not.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you have a name for that, or you call it something or.

I just. I. I think I'm just calling it, like, the I feel versus I am exercise. That's. That's sort of what I've been saying it. Or the. The I feel incompetent exercise, because I think it's specifically that word or that feeling that I use the most. I found that, like, other words and feelings don't quite work as well or even the transition activity but, yeah, I feel incompetent. Exercise.

We'll refer to it as the Megum intervention number one, the Tangerine. Tangerine intervention. Back to the cage.

Life gives you tangerines.

That's right. All right. I love that.

Good, good. Yeah. And again, I think it's. It's just sort of like. Sort of like, it's. It's like priming the pump for going into. From the pain cycle into the pee cycle. I think that's where it's really effective.

It's good. All right. And we know, like, there's another one that.

Yeah, this is another one. I love this other one. I hope everyone else will love it as well. So I'm calling it the quicksand analogy. Right? And I started. I don't even. I think what I do just naturally is. I think my creative brain sort of takes over, and when my clients feel a little stuck, I'll just. I'll just think of something to help them get unstuck, Right. In terms of using rt. And this one I just kept coming back to because it really started resonating with clients. Since I've been doing it for, like, years now, I just haven't shared it with anyone. So I thought, oh, this would be a great place to share it. I'm calling the quicksand analogy. And here's what's really helpful. I have found so many clients saying, okay, okay, I get the pain cycle and pee cycle. I get the four steps, right? And then they'll say, but we tried using the four steps, and it didn't work. I don't know if you hear that with your clients, too. Oh, yeah, no, I think our clients know each other. So they just say, like, oh, I used it. I went through my four steps, but it didn't work. And I was like, okay, well, first of all, it works. But for me to, like. I just needed something to help them really experience the power of the four steps, and I felt like they weren't using it well. So I came up with this quicksand analogy, right? So here's how it works. I'll just pretend like one of you who wants to be. Who wants to be my client.

I think I feel like we've been.

Working that for a while.

Okay, that's had a lot of therapy on here.

You. You will be my client. So as the client, you already know your pain cycle and your pee cycle. It's. It's the difficulty of using, you know.

Like, my left and my right hand, the four steps.

Excellent. So it's Using the four steps. So what I'll say is. Hey, Lance. Okay, here's how you use the four steps. When you feel that moment of pain, right? And so can you recall? Just. You don't have to go into the details. Recall a recent incident where you felt like, oh, I felt that pain. And this is when I want to start using my four steps. Can you. Do you have that?

Yeah.

You have that memory? Okay, great. So we'll use that. Lance, when you feel that moment of pain, what is that pain? Just two. One or two feelings?

Yeah.

Out of control and failure.

Okay, I feel out of control. I feel like a failure. And those are your pain words. So step one, you name the feelings. Out of control, failure. Lance, you have just stepped into quicksand. You've just.

Tell me about it. I am stuck.

What do you. What do you know about quicksand? I know, I know that we've. I know. Clearly none of us have actually experienced it, but what we know about quicksand. What do you know about quicksand?

Well, I was part of the population that was deeply traumatized by the Never Ending Story and Artax, you know, the Swamps of Sorrow, I guess it's swamp more than quicksand. But like quicksand, the more you resist it, the more it sucks you in.

So that's it. That's it.

So.

So with quicksand, the moment you step, the moment you experience your pain lands. You have stepped in to quicksand. And one of the things that we know about quicksand is don't move. Don't move. So movement is actually the copings, because the more you cope, where do you find yourselves right back into further pain, right? Oh, totally. So right there you're already telling your brain, don't move. Stop. Don't do the coping. So you stepped into quicksand and you immediately tell yourself, don't move, and you say step two. Hopefully you haven't done step two. Right? But you say step two, so go ahead.

Yesterday I did step two.

That's okay. So yesterday you did step two. What did you do to cope?

I got angry and then I started to perform.

Okay, you got angry, started to perform, and you made more movement and you probably felt more pain. So right there you're telling yourself, okay, I stepped into quicksand, I don't want to move. You've. You've said, right. You said step two, now you want to move into step three. Lance, what are your truths?

I think the big one is, you know, God is in control for me. I Think that's been really helpful. And then when I feel like a failure, just knowing that I'm still called has been pretty revolutionary for me.

Beautiful. God is.

It ain't over yet.

Yeah. God is in control. And I'm still called. Now, those are your ropes. So while you are in quicksand, those ropes will appear, but they're not magic ropes in the sense that you hold on to them and they will magically pull you out. Actually, they're ropes, but you have to pull yourself out by using the ropes, which means you really have to lean into the truths. So in that moment when you're in quicksand, you want to hold on to that rope and say, God, you're in control and you're pulling yourself out. Yeah. By saying, God, you are in control. And I'm still what? I'm still, still called.

I'm still called.

I'm still called.

God is in control.

You lean into them, and you're pulling yourself out. And while you're doing that, you may find yourself wanting to call on other ropes in that moment, perhaps ropes that are specific to your situation in that moment. And so you start. You start, you know, accessing other ropes and. And you pull yourself out completely, and you find yourself on solid ground again. Okay, now you've done step three, and then when you're on solid ground, that's when you can move into step four. And what's the four Lance.

Say what you can do differently.

Great. Yeah. So when you're able to do that now, because you're on solid ground, you're actually able to take the action because you've spent all this effort leaning into your true truths, and now you're on. You're on solid ground. So many of my clients will just sort of speak the truths very quickly, and it almost as if, like, they're supposed to do some magic, but they don't. And then they move on to step four, and they try to do the action, or. But the thing is, when they try to do the action and they haven't adequately done the step three, they're still in quicksand. And so that action will actually take on a different form of coping. In a sense. They're still in quicksand. It still feels like movement, and so then it doesn't work. Now they're activated in a different way in their pain because it's not working. They're still in quicksand. But I have. You know, but once you're, like, able to get on solid ground, the actions just come. So Easily, you know, because they've done all that work to get out of that quicksand. So that's the quicksand analogy.

I like it.

It's helpful.

So literally yesterday, I'll tell you what happened, and then why. This would have been really helpful had I thought about it. I was. I was so locked. Like, I got into this conversation with this guy out surfing, and I was very much locked in my pain cycle because he was being. Making beef with my bro. You know, gotta protect and. But, like, it ruined my whole surf experience, right? And I tried to perform my way out of it. Like, I do put on my smile. What's your name, man? Let's be friends. But, like, it was so inauthentic. It wasn't until I got to solid ground, which is the first. The funny part with this, where I was like, oh, Lance. And I had a few good surf waves that reminded me that I'm still called and God's in control. But, like, I saw the guy at the showers on. On, like, on the way out, and I. I walked up to him, I was like, hey, man. Like, I wasn't trying to get beef with you. Like, I just wanted to make peace. Like, you know, much love, bro. And like, he was so easy to talk to at that point, but I was so amped up beforehand that it messed me up. So anyways, that was. That was so helpful. And I. I was beating myself up because I didn't use my rope sooner. But I, like, if I had the thought of, like, stop going in the quicksand and stop moving and thinking about grabbing those vines, it probably made a big difference.

Oh, that's excellent. Thanks for sharing that. I mean, that's cool.

It'd be cool to have, like, actual quicksand in our office.

Yeah.

And like a rope.

Here's what it feels like. We're really taking experiential to another level. But, I mean, I wish I could, because that's actually really what would be helpful. I think this is where once I share this quicksand analogy, it's like the clients now, actually, they get it. They're like, oh, I have to really use these truths. And I will tell them. There will be times, you know, I think for a lot of. A lot of folks, like, they may say that they have a truth and they'll reach for it and it just doesn't work right. And so I'll tell them, hey, it just means it's still a truth. It just means it's not going to work right now in this moment, in this scenario. So find other truths. You may find truths that aren't even on your peace cycle. That's okay. Just find truths that will hold you, and you can really lean into it to get yourself out. And I think that's where, like, there are times when clients will come back and they'll be like, oh, my gosh, I used this other truth. Wasn't even on my pain cycle, but I just used in the moment, and then we'll add it in, you know, So I think this is where, like, my clients are really able to make that shift, you know, really using the four steps. Yeah, I love it. There's. There's the other thing that's sort of built into the quicksand analogy that Lance, you're sort of identifying is that the brain really does. Because of this analogy, the really. The brain really does encourage you to stop. I think previous to the quicksand analogy, I would say things like, oh, you know, pretend that, like, there's a do not enter sign. You know, you don't just stop. You don't want to enter down this path. Right. I'll say that. But with the quicksand analogy, that is already there. They're already saying, oh, I have to stop. I can't move. I don't want to fall deeper into this. And so that stops. Stop mechanism is actually, like, almost automatic now, so. Good.

Hey, Lance, you can bolt off, and I'll close up the episode with Megan if you want. I know you got a hard stop to go. Yeah, guys, people know. And I'm gonna finish up here.

I have to go. I have to go back to this idea that God's still in control that I'm called.

You've gotta go to. You got work to do.

Yeah, yeah. I gotta help these stuck clients break out of their quicksand. You're the best. Much love. We'll get you back on, and we'll talk through our experiences. Cheers.

See you, Lance.

Bye, Lance.

It's apropos because we started the episode without you because you fell off. And now we gotta.

We'll kick.

We'll kick Lance off here at the end. You know what's funny, Migum? I was, like, on Instagram this week, and I don't know, I follow this. Like, you know, I was a kid of the 80s. I was born in the 70s, but kid of the 80s. And they had this. I follow this 80s, kind of like, meme page. And it was about if you grew up in the 80s, everyone had a fear of dying in quicksand because it was like on the Smurfs. It was on Gilligan.

It's everywhere.

Raiders.

Everywhere Raiders. Yeah.

Yeah. Every show there is quicksand in it. And that was one greatest fear. So, like, when you were talking about it too, like, for me, and I'm sure a lot of clients, it, like, it brings up a real, Like a good memory. Like, oh, yeah. Quicksand. And like, all these pictures of what it's like to be stuck in quicksand. And I was also wondering, because Dede Meyer, a couple episodes ago, she uses a. She has a rope in her office that she uses for a different exercise to help couples, like, drop the rope when they're like, do. Working on the us. And I was thinking you could have, like. I'm not. I'm not. I don't know if you do, but I was just thinking in my own office, I was like, you know, you could have different things. You could use to kind of bring that intervention into the room. You know, having someone hold on a rope, maybe having them stand in a hula hoop, that's like the quicksand.

Yeah. Yeah.

I really. I really like that. It's a good.

Make it more experiential. I love that. If we can't have a box of quicksand in our office, not.

It's like, I guess we could take people out into the wilderness. We'll do some. What do you call that? Therapy? Some kind of exposure therapy. Yeah.

Crazy.

Well, that's really helpful. I appreciate. You know, one of the things I love about this community is how everyone is being creative with RT and the four steps and doing what they can in the room to empower clients for change. And, you know, I really. When you emailed Lance and I a couple weeks ago about this intervention, specifically the quicksand, I saw that and I smiled because it's cool to see people just trying stuff out. Because for me, like, that incompetency, the first thing I thought of is how many times as a therapist I'm in the room and I see myself, I should do an intervention, but I don't out of fear of, like, it not going well or something. And then they leave that day, and I'm like, ah, man, I was feeling really incompetent, you know, as a therapist that day around intervention specifically. Yeah. Anyways, I was just. That's a long. That's a whole therapy session, probably.

Yeah, I think. I think this is where, like, at least for my clients, this is where I feel like they really turn the corner. I Mean, because, you know, and we hear Terry saying that, too. I mean, the piece, like the pain cycle, you know, gives insight. The peace cycle is. It is. Is. You know, they're the truths that ground us. But actually, the real hard work of RT is in the four steps. And so when I hear Terri saying that, and then I keep encouraging my clients to do the four steps. Four steps. And when they come back and they're, like, so discouraged because they keep saying, I tried it, it's not working. That's. That's discouraging for all of us all around. And so that's when I started using this quicksand. And it, like, it works. It turns them around. It makes the four steps real and accessible. Yeah. So I hope. I hope, you know, give it a try.

Yeah. I did a couple years training in psychodrama, and we'd use a lot of props and different things. And I. I was just thinking about the quicksand. Yeah. There's a lot of tools, and even if you don't have stuff in your office, just getting people up and imagining they're standing in quicksand and stuff is, like a really powerful part of the intervention, I would imagine. If people wanted to connect with you, what's the best way to get a hold of you? Is it going to your website and just contact who is it? What do you recommend?

Or. Yeah, the website or my email? I think I'm the only Meagum out there, so if you just Google Megan, you'd be able to find me somewhere. Yeah, yeah, my website.

I'll put in the show notes. I'll put your website and other information about you and list the two interventions and stuff, too. And I think this will be really good. I know people. Every time that someone talks about interventions, people usually have questions about it and want to try it out and everything. But, hey, we'll wrap up. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast today.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah. And look forward to seeing you in person again here soon. And just thank you for your continued contribution to the RT community. As Lance said, just the spirit and energy that you bring to it is awesome as well. So thank you very much and have a good, good rest of the day.

Thank you.

Bye.