Season 1 | Episode 36 | Special Guest, Ron Deal -- Emotional Coregulation or Self-Regulation?

Lance, what's going on?

Rhett? How's it going, my friend? Dude, I have had the most epic moments recently. I had hurricane swell that I got to surf yesterday, and I got to watch a Paul McCartney concert. Now the Padres are in the wild card. I am living the dream, bro.

Well, it's going to be even better because we have an awesome guest today. And I was trying to think how, how do I introduce them? I mean, I mostly introduce him as like an RT colleague and new friend. Ron Deal, who you can listen to from episode seven of our podcast earlier, and the author, co author of the Mindful Marriage. Create your best relationship through understanding and managing yourself with his wife, Nan and.

Terry, Sharon and Terry and Sharon and Terry and Sharon. That's very important to say. Thanks. Thanks, guys for having me back. It's great to be with you. Yeah.

And also Ron, president of Smart Step Families and senior director of Family Life Blended Family Life. Blended, right? Is that how you say it? Correct?

Yep, that's it. Family Life Blended. It's a division of Family Life, which is an international marriage and family organization.

All I know is usually in a therapy session when I'm working with couples and blended families, I'm like, just go online and get all of Ron Deal's material.

I know, it's like an instant referral now. Yeah, Blended families coming in the door. Prepare to blend. Yeah, a good one.

Awesome.

Five love languages for blended family. You know, all the good stuff.

I appreciate that.

Yeah. Well, we want to just jump right into it because there's a conversation piece we've been like, thinking a lot behind the scenes. Lance and I tried to tackle it ourselves many episodes ago, but Ron, you do a much better job, and especially in the book the Mindful Marriage. And it's this piece around emotional self regulation versus CO regulation. And I don't know if, you know, let's start with that. Actually, could you give like a 30 second elevator pitch or like, blurb? Like, what is what? Like, what are we talking about when we say emotional self regulation versus CO regulation?

Yeah, good question. And let me answer that first, just for your listeners and viewers. Let me just pull back a second and set the stage. I really believe that what Terry has created is a paradigm shift in the mental health field and the marriage education field and personal growth field, because this is the human experience. He's got a paradigm shift in how people change. And the emphasis on CO regulation is so different. I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this, talking to people, looking into this, and the marriage education, secular and Christian, for the last 70 years has taught CO regulation. Without even realizing it. They have moved people towards a CO regulation model of how to do relationships. The family therapy field has taught CO regulation. CO regulation. The predominant models, eft, et cetera, et cetera, really sort of fundamentally assume CO regulation is the best posture of how to work on your relationship. And Terry's saying, no, not only does that not work, or it works temporarily, which is the deceptive part. It seems to work, but it's only temporary. We'll get back to that. But then it's not useful long term for personal transformation beyond what has got me stuck. I've been a slave to my pain ever since I was a little kid. I just didn't know I was. I'm reacting day in and day out to my boss, the people driving beside me on the highway, and my spouse and my kids out of my reactivity. And somehow I'm never able to move beyond that because I'm waiting for somebody to co regulate me to help me fix that. But that does not transform. That does not change the brain. It does not change your character. It does not help you grow up now. And when I say grow up, I don't mean to be condescending. Ron Deal is still trying to grow up. We're about to hit 40 years of marriage, and I am nowhere near grown up enough, you know what I mean, to do this thing really super well. But I'm trying to grow up and mature. I mean, really, that's the best word. Maturity requires self regulation. Okay, back to definitions because that's important. This morning I was having a conversation with a colleague who's like, ron, are you saying people can't encourage one another in marriage? Like, no, I'm not saying that at all. Let's get this in perspective. Anytime your. Your midbrain, the limbic system feels perceived threat. Right? Let's. Let's talk the neurological language. You get a perceived threat, your prefrontal cortex goes by. We're going offline. Your limbic system says, we're taking over. And it only knows to do two things. Fight or flight. Fight or flight gets expressed in four main ways. Blame, shame, control, escape. Your audience knows this. You've talked about this a lot. This is the core of rt. And if somebody's listening right now and they're new, get into it. It's super, super amazing and fascinating. Listen to the man, you know, it's important. This is good stuff. So when the limbic system kicks into fight or flight, blame Shame Controllers gate. The question is, how do you then get out of that? CO regulation would say what you need is somebody to come alongside you and give you a hug to help calm you down, to help you regulate that part of you that is really upset or dysregulated or discombobulated, whatever, however you want to express that neurologically you're dysregulated. How do you calm that down and get back to a place of regulation? CO regulation says you need somebody to help you get there. Self regulation says you can actually put a pause in your reactivity. You can put self control into the equation, and you can slow yourself down and you can move yourself into a better way of being. That's the basic, fundamental difference. I'd love to give you a metaphor, because I think this metaphor sort of helps people get it. Can I do that? Yes.

Okay, give us the metaphor.

So it's scuba diving. Anybody who's ever been scuba diving knows what I'm about to talk about. If you've never been scuba diving, you can imagine it. And if you've never been scuba diving. Yeah, you're underwater. Well, first of all, you know, I've done some diving. My wife and I have done some diving together. Someday I'll tell you about the dive. I almost died. Okay, that's not today. When you're learning to dive, I call them the three A's. Air, air pressure, and anxiety. These are the three things you got to manage as a diver. Air is. You need something to breathe because you're not a fish. You don't belong under there. And if you don't have a tank with oxygen in it, you're in trouble. Right. So air. Air pressure. There's air going into your lungs and into your sinus cavity. Every time you suck air through the. By the way, what's that thing called you put in your mouth? A regulator. Right. Isn't that interesting? So we're going to. What it does is it regulates the air coming into your lungs and the pressure of that air entering your lungs. Because as you go to depth, air pressure changes. And what you don't want is a blast of air that blows your lungs up when you're 80ft down on. Does that make sense? The regulator helps you manage your air pressure, but what you have to do is manage the air pressure in your sinus cavity when you're going up in an airplane. Everybody who's ever flown knows, ooh, what's that crackling thing going on? That's the air pressure changing in your sinus cavity. Some people have to swallow or chew gum or, you know, kind of hold their nose and gently blow. And it sort of clears your ears. And you gotta. You gotta adjust that. Otherwise you have this intense pressure in your head that is really uncomfortable. And when you have pressure, you can't enjoy your dive or your flight. Right now, I don't really have to do that much. Some people do it once when they're going up to 30,000ft and once when they're coming down. I've had colds on flights and I couldn't adjust the air pressure because there was a whole lot of, you know, stuff going on. And that's painful. Like, I had one flight where I landed and six hours later my ears cleared. I was back on earth. And it was intense pressure for a long time. Well, that's what we're talking about with air pressure. But when you fly, you only have to do that once. When you dive, every 10ft, you have to manage the air pressure. Every 10ft, you have to do your little thing. For me, it's gently blow, hold my nose, gently blow. One ear will clear and you'll hear. I'll hear a little thing as the air leaves my sinus cap cavity. And then I swallow and it clears the other ear. That's me, right? Everybody is a little bit different. You find your rhythm. But every 10ft, you're going on an 80 foot dive. You got to do that proactively eight times or you're miserable. There's no fun in the dive when you're miserable. You're not paying attention to the God's beautiful ocean. You're in your head literally trying to figure out how to get rid of that pain. All right, you with me? Air, air pressure. The last one's anxiety. And this is the biggest one. When you're learning to dive because you're not a fish and your mama and everybody in your life since the time you were two has told you hold your breath when you go underwater. And you know you're not supposed to breathe underwater. And they stick this thing in their mouth and they say, no, it's okay, Ron. You can suck air. And you're like, no, I can't. This is not going to work. I'm going to. Water's going to rush into my lungs. I'm going to drown right here at 2 inches in the swimming pool, under the surface. I know I'm going to. And you have to tell yourself, no, you're not going to die. This is something people actually do. Trust the process Trust your regulator. Let's try to suck some air, see what happens. And the first time you do it, it's magical. But you're only 2 inches below the surface of the water like that. There's a quick escape if you get some water in your lungs. When you actually begin to go into the ocean and there's nothing, you can't see the bottom and you can't see anything land around you on either side. I don't care how long you've been a diver, every once in a while you sort of wake up to the anxiety of, I could die down here if anything goes wrong with my air, my air pressure, or I see a shark. That's the signal for divers, by the way. Shark. Then all of a sudden, your anxiety goes sky high. Now, I think if you're imagining yourself in that situation, you can feel dysregulation. It's not quite. You're not settled, you're not at peace. There is perceived threat on all sides in various forms. And what you have to do as a diver is constantly manage you. Once you get that figured out, you get to enjoy God's incredible ocean and everything down there. And you are having so much fun. It is unbelievable. I used to think snorkeling was awesome until I went diving. And then I discovered snorkeling is a 2 on a 10 scale. Diving is a 12 on a 10 scale. It is amazing how much more you see and experience when you're diving compared to just snorkeling. Because you're at the top looking down. That's about all you got. But when you're diving, you're with it. You're among amongst it. You're participating. Okay, I think I painted the picture. You got the idea. Now, when you dive, you always have a buddy. This is called your spouse. This is called your best friend. This is called your mom. This is called people that are important to you. And you keep an eye on your buddy and you share. Hey, come here. Look down here. And you show them the seahorse that's that big at the bottom. And you just spotted this thing, and it's amazing. And then all these colors and these fish, and there's stuff going on, and, oh, look at that fish. That's as big as my arm. You get to enjoy all of that. Look after one another, share with each other, give to one another, because I'm managing me, and they're managing them. Okay, now, what if something goes wrong with my air in my tank, and all of a sudden I was supposed to have 45 minutes air. Now it's gone. We're 10 minutes into the dive. I got no air worth 80ft down. What do you do? Well, they teach you how to take care of each other in diving and here's what you do. The other partner is going to come to you and they're going to take a big breath out of their regulator and then they're going to pull the regulator, they're going to hold their breath, pull the regulator out and stick it into your mouth. And you get to take a breath and then they take a breath. Then you take a breath. Then you take a breath. Do you think you're just going to hang around and dive and stay at the 80 foot mark when this is happening? No, because you're now doubling up on the oxygen in the other person's tank. You are headed to the surface. These two people, the dive is over. No more fun. Everybody's dysregulated at this point. This is CO regulation. I can't breathe for myself, but you can breathe for me. That's the basic notion of what CO regulation is. I can't do it myself. I need you to help regulate me so that I don't die under my perceived threat. What happens to the dynamic of the relationship is the dive is over. We're headed to the surface. No more intimacy, no more depth, no more calm, no more peace. And one person being dysregulated is probably going to result in the other person being dysregulated. As you're trying to get to the surface helping one another, you're only focused on the problem and the anxiety. You're not enjoying, you know, what's around you. Like the whole dynamic of the dive completely changes under CO regulation. But in self regulation, everybody's managing themselves and able to give and receive in peace. React to that picture. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Does that distinguish the CO regulation versus the.

Yeah. I mean, and I, as you're talking the whole time I'm thinking, well, where do people get hung up then? You know, where is it? Because when you paint a picture, like it makes a lot of sense, right? And anyone listening to it, I would think, would think that's a beautiful picture. And this idea of emotional self regulation is the way to go. So where do you notice people getting hung up then?

It's not romantic to self regulate. What I need is somebody who say more. What I need is somebody who loves me more than I love myself.

Yeah.

And when I'm a mess, somebody who will come along and say Ron, Ron, it's okay. You're really a great person. You know I love you. Now, let me pause for a second. I'm not saying encouragement at times of need is a bad thing. That's not a bad thing. But I will not be transformed by your momentary co. Regulation encouragement. I will only survive to the surface. And it'll give me about five minutes to get to the surface. Okay, I'm okay now, but notice what's happened. I'm now at the surface. You're at the surface. Our relationship is very shallow. Nobody's at peace. My peace came because you were there for me, not because I was able to find it on my own. Are you with me? And that little momentary peace will last until the next moment of dysregulation. It does not change or transform me beyond my fears. It leaves me enslaved to the pain. So while it sort of helps, it really doesn't help.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I feel like I have so many of these couples that come in my office. It's almost like clockwork. I don't know about you guys, but, like, you have a couple. Like, if I. If I were to put my stats up for, like, how long a couple have been married, you know, I would have, like, these big indicators would be like three years, like, or they just got married, like, right in that zone. Right?

Yeah.

Seven year mark. And then you got. I can't tell you. Most of my couples are 20 years in. I think it's because they're so shallow in their relationship. They're not growing and they've bought into this, you know, idea around this shallow, like, you meet my needs and then it's this kind of. We talk about partnering versus parenting, right?

Yes, yes. Where.

Where they get locked into this dynamic and, you know, they'll do the techniques, but the techniques are like active listening techniques, which I feel. I feel like an active listening technique is like sharing a regulator, you know?

Yes, exactly.

It gets old.

Again, there's. There's nothing wrong with it, but it doesn't help you move beyond it or grow beyond that. That pain point. You're still stuck in it. Your partner understands you better while they're helping you to feel like you're important or worthy or valued or safe. You know, identity and safety are the two things. So again, there's nothing wrong about co regulation, except if you're relying on it to transform the relationship, it won't be. By the way, Lance, I think that's an amazing observation. As you guys know, Nan and I basically are given Our life story in this book, the Mindful Marriage. And it's our testimony of how we had tons of great dives together, so to speak, in marriage. We had tons of fun. We had, we were raising kids. But we hit the 21 year mark and we end up in Terry's office because we couldn't do the dysregulated game anymore. Like it just had run its course and your level of tolerance for that had just been spent. And that's exactly what our story was.

Oh yeah, it's. It's like clockwork.

About even. Like I'm just kind of looking through the empty nest syndrome through a different paradigm, you know, and maybe less about kids even, and more about. We've been co, we've been co regulating for 20 years and maybe our kids have actually been helping co regulate some of us as well.

Yeah, at least a triangulation. Right. They gave us something to focus on that was not each other. And so we had this artificial thing co regulating us, called our kids in their activities, in their world. And now that those are removed, there it is, here we are looking at each other, going, well, I don't know how to dive with you and you don't know how to dive with me. And let's go to the surface, right? There's the gray divorce. That's it.

Yeah, I say too, I think like you said earlier, I tell couples a lot, like, yes, it's important to encourage each other, to give to one another, to support each other, but your sense of identity and safety should not be dependent on upon that.

Yeah, here's the distinguisher. I think when you're loving each other, when you're at peace with one another, encouragement, hugs, reinforcement, you matter to me. You're so worth everything in the world. To me, those kinds of things are acts of love and communication and a restabilizer to the relationship, to the emotional climate of the relationship. Everybody thrives on that, benefits from that. But it's in moments of dysregulation when I'm looking at you and I don't see that love or I'm feeling unimportant, or I'm feeling left out or unworthy or whatever those pain points are. This is when my limbic system has been kicked in. I'm now in fight or flight mode, blame, shame, control or escape. And all of a sudden I'm reacting out of that pain. Does the other person have the ability to speak to your pain and make it go away, to do something so that your pain goes. The answer is only Temporarily. I'll never forget. I pinned Terry down on this one day. We were talking it through as we were writing the book and I said, yeah, but I mean, it is. A hug is helpful, right? Emotional hug, however that comes, word, deed, whatever, touch. And he goes, yeah, but Ron, it's cotton candy. I will never forget that it's cotton candy. And I'm like, oh yeah, it tastes great and it lasts for 30 seconds and then you're hungry again. That's the point here. How do I transform beyond my pain and not continue to be a slave to it? I have to grow through that. It's my brain that has to be transformed and renewed. And that will not happen from the outside in. It happens from the inside out. And so self regulation becomes the vehicle that helps me calm down in the midst of my anxiety. So I can take a deep breath and go, wait a minute, how do I manage this moment so I can bring a better me to the next moment?

I think I heard Terry say, I'm going to give him credit because I think he's the one who said it. But I remember him talking about if, if you are not emotionally self regulated, your partner is in a position to essentially constantly shovel this dry kindling into this blazing inferno. And they, it just, it just disappears, right? It just, it's an exhausting task to be in a relationship where you are responsible to constantly emotionally co regulate your spouse.

Yeah, let's, let's make it really important. I said to an audience one time, I said, let's put this to the test, everybody. Just imagine that there's a thing in your life, in your relationship with somebody who's significant to you, spouse or some family member or somebody. And from time to time you find yourself trying to help them deal with an insecurity or a sadness or you know, something. And you kind of find your way through that moment and you did something or said something that was helpful to them and you felt relieved and they felt relieved. And you're like, okay, good, you know, all right, things are better. How long was it till you had to do that again? And why does it keep coming back? And why is it predictable that it keeps coming back either in you or in the other person? Cotton candy, because it helps in the moment. But it is a slow, excuse me, it is a temporary fix. It's not a fix at all. It's a temporary band aid. And then the next time they get dysregulated and pain is back and their limbic system kicks in, they're still doing the same blame, shame, control or escape reactivity. And you're still trying to stick your regulator in their mouth and somehow help them breathe. And you're back into the same pattern.

Yeah. And they're shouting to you, just hold me tight, hold me tight.

That's the evidence that the CO regulation is limited in its ability to help adults. Now by the way, I want to just make this clarification. Adults, you know, attachment theory came out of the study of child development in children and what do they need? And rightfully so. They reached the conclusion that the best thing that a dysregulated child needs is a self regulating parent, which I find fascinating. Number one, we agree that self regulation at least one of the two people is a good thing. And we're thinking the adult has the ability to self. Yes, they do have the ability. And a two year old does not. Six year old does not. Not in the way that an adult can put on self control in those difficult moments. They need. Children need somebody to come along and go, oh, I got you, it's okay. Sorry about that. Skin knee. I'm here that CO regulation is appropriate for children. Guys, did you know I learned this not too long ago, that before the age of nine, children don't have a functional network, neural network between their prefrontal cortex and their limbic system. They couldn't put on self control if they wanted. It doesn't talk to the limbic system until age 9. But after that we can. But yet we still expect adults to respond to difficult moments like they're two. Like, what are we saying to single people? I'm sorry, you're on your own. You got to figure out life, nobody co regulate you. You might as well just give it up. You better go find a partner. Otherwise you're going to be miserable the rest of your life. If that's what we're saying. By the way, the new, mark my words, the new CO regulation in society is AI Companions. It's here and it's coming. Now you can just hire your CO regulator and it'll be your phone who will tell you everything you always want to hear about yourself and will never require you to grow up or do anything new because all it's going to do is console you.

Oh man, I'm telling you, I have had so many clients that have been like, well, I talked to ChatGPT.

That's right.

I wrote down the whole argument of what happened. Right?

Yeah.

And ChatGPT said I was right.

Like, this is the new CO regulator, this is the new CO regulator, I'm telling you. And emotional AI companions. I mean, you guys familiar with this? There are people who have fallen in love with these with their AI device and they're calling. I heard this past summer, I heard the former president of, former CEO and president of intel say that already. The research on AI is that the number one reason people go to AI is for companionship and friendship. Oh my gosh. We are in for a new line of therapy in the future. I'm telling you what craziness.

Even the phone, right, this device, when you see it, it's a. It's for many, it's a self soothing apparatus already. And then you equip it with a tool that communicates to you and knows you supposedly at a deep level. Yeah, that is pretty powerful.

It's. But it's nothing new. It is co regulation in a new form. But it is the same romantic idea that if I can just find the right person who loves me the way I need them to, my pain, my trauma, my whatever from the past will be no more. That's a lovely Hollywood notion. It just doesn't work. Now here's the goofy thing, like we've slid into our field has slid into the assumption that what is best for children, somebody to copy regulate a dysregulated child, is what's also best for adult relationships. And I don't know how we got here. I don't know the history. I've tried to find it. I don't know that anybody's documented anything. If anybody's listening right now and you know the history of how we ended up here, I'd love to hear it. But let me just give you an analogy of what I mean by sliding into some assumptions. I told a group just last week with the Hargraves. We were doing a presentation together at Christian Counselors Conference. And I said, has anybody heard of the five stages of grief? Elizabeth Kubler Ross's great research. And of course everybody raised their hand. And I'm like, did you know she never called them stages? And they're like, what did you know? She only studied people who were dying. She didn't study the people left behind after somebody died. She studied the people who were dying. Her first book was called On Dying.

On Death and Dying.

She didn't study when you lose somebody, that's not what she studied. Did you know before she died she apologized to the mental health community for what people have done with her work? She never called them stages. She never meant for this to be a prescription of how to do grief. She came up with a description of what people experienced when they were dying. We turned it into how to grieve. When your dog dies, your mom dies, your partner dies, you lose your job or your child dies, it's the end all, be all five stages for everything in the world. And she never applied it to any of that. How did we get here? Now this is so ubiquitous that most people in the mental health field don't even realize that they're misusing her research day in and day out. In fact, last week at this conference that we were at, the day before, I heard somebody at the conference misuse her five stages. My point is this. Sometimes we slide into assumptions about what research means or how to use it. And we never really intended to get there. We just sort of ended up there. Here's another quick example. 50% divorce rate never happened. Never was reality. It was a prediction based in the early 80s on some divorce rate that were progressing in our country. We never hit the 50% divorce rate. People still quote half of all marriages in a divorce. It's not true. It's never been true. If you have a Christian relationship, it's like less than 20% chance of divorce. We crazy misuse that divorce rate. In my world, the blended family world, I hear all the time, well, blended couples divorce at a 65% rate. If it's a third marriage, it's a 75%. You know what? That was based on a Psychology Today article that was written 20 years ago with, for whom we went back to the author. They did not have any data behind it. They just gave their opinion and that now is quoted ubiquitously throughout the field. It's crazy how we slide into spaces we never intended to get to. We have done that with adult attachment. So many of our mental health practices, from therapeutic approaches to marriage education approaches, assume and quote and reference the idea that the way you need to love your partner is the way you love a child. Can I give you an example? And I'm not going to tell you the author of the book, but if I mentioned it, people would probably know exactly who it was.

I will name it.

I want to get this. I got to play the testing game. I'll let you do that. This popular book actually says they spend quite a bit of time downloading this whole parent child dynamic about co regulation and how important that is. And they basically are saying now you didn't get that as a kid. And so what you need to do in your adult marriage relationships is that you need to love Each other like a parent loves a child. They say, and I quote, you should parent one another just like parents do with children. But you can leave off the baby talk unless you're into that sort of thing.

Oh, my goodness.

Ha ha. Joke, joke. Oh, my goodness is right. They're actually recommending parenting one another in marriage, not partnering. One of the best selling books on marriage in the world today. That's their whole. That's co regulation. And I'm just here to tell you it doesn't work. Well, it keeps you at the surface, let's say it that way. It might work, but it keeps your relationship at the surface. The dive is over. You're not going to 80ft. You're not going to get to enjoy in peace God's great big beautiful ocean that he has in store for you. There's no depth anymore to your relationship because there's no safety in that dynamic. It's not a two way safety street. One person is being parented.

Yeah.

And who wants to make love to their. To their parent. Ooh, that's kind of gross.

That is. That is never a good idea.

That's never a good idea.

We. We frown upon such things.

Did we just go Freudian? Oh, my goodness. We don't want to do that.

I mean, this is, this is. I, I mean, this is definitely. I think we have lots of bad guys in this situation that have like brought us down this pathway. I mean, we can see it in the church, you know, his needs, her needs. You know, classically like, you know, you have divorced this.

The subtitle of that book is you can divorce proof your marriage. All you have to do is meet the needs of your partner and they'll never do anything wrong to hurt you. That's parenting. And number two, not only is that, that's parenting. That doesn't work. You know, the whole notion of your pain cycle is that there's something in me that has been in there a long time that preceded Nan in my life. How in the world can Nan get it out of me when this is not about her. This is about me. It's always about me. Now there are things that happen today in our marriage that trigger that pain. But that pain is neurologically ruthless, rooted as it is, is not up to her. Yeah, it just doesn't work now, guys, I want to pull back and say I used to teach out of his needs, her needs. I started my career in family ministry, and I think the first marriage class I ever taught was based on that book. I didn't know What? I didn't know I had good intentions. I think our field has been full of good intentions. People who are helping people grieve. Well, think that pulling on five stages gives you a plan and a way to do grief. And so here we go. You're trying to help people. We got here innocently, but we've slid into a space that has stuck in a hole and we don't even know we're in the hole. And that's why we're trying to bring this conversation up in order to say, hey, no harm, no foul. But let's notice where we are and let's recognize that our models need advancing. We need to go beyond them. Let's think again about how we really help people change.

It's a little overwhelming what's going on for you, Rhett? It feels at times. No, I just. Because I was trying to think about who does this. Well, in terms of the emotional self regulation piece, you know.

You mean other than rt? RT is the only thing I know.

I was just trying to think through, you know, a couple of books. I was just thinking. Huh.

I think Baumeister does a good job with willpower.

Oh, you're right. He's a conceptualizer. All his work on self control is stunning.

I was thinking about, for example, the book by Dan Siegel and Tina Pace. Brian Pace, I can't forget last name.

Payne Bryson.

Oh, yeah. The whole brain child one things that I love in their first chapter. Essentially, it's like if you are a parent and you are not emotionally self regulated, you are not going to parent well. And I don't see that on a lot of parenting books. You know, I think, and I don't know, I was thinking about some of the work of David Schnarch and like Passionate Marriage, his concept of self differentiation and managing one's own anxiety. I don't know. He's never used the language that I'm aware of of emotional self regulation. But I was thinking there is a different pathway a little bit, it seems diverge out of what was real. The other popular theories.

Yes. Bowenian models, you're right, is rooted in that idea of you're managing your own anxiety as best you can. I don't think they had the same. Well, I know they didn't have the same neurological science when those theories were really. But it does fit well. It dovetails well with where RT.

Yeah.

Will take people.

When I was thinking even about that old school book, you know, boundaries by Townsend and Cloud and that concept of, you know, they root from my Understanding, you know, from what I've read, like, the whole basis is that Galatians 6, where Paul says, come alongside and bear one of those burdens. And then, like, you know, two verses later says, but everyone's responsible to carry their own load, their own stone. And sometimes I think there's this idea of, like, yeah, it's good to come along and help and encourage, like you were saying. But also we have to be responsible to carry our own stuff. And I'm in the. They, you know, they use that verse specifically, and I'm that. Which made me think, are there some biblical precedents that. That for you, Ron, demonstrate this emotional self regulation piece.

First of all, let me just say I don't want to be misunderstood. I don't want anybody to say, oh, so you're just saying if your spouse is upset about something at work, that you just need to sit back and make them figure it out? No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I don't think you're saying at all.

No, it's. When I'm self regulating, I have more to give. At that point, I can actually be in tune with Nan's distress over something happening in life because I'm not wrapped up in my own anxiety. I'm actually able to focus and listen and hear and affirm and absorb. But I know at the end of the day that pain that she's carrying is not mine to fix. I can hug it, but I can't fix it. And she's not sitting around waiting for me to resolve it. She knows I've got to move myself toward truth and responding out of truth, and what does that look like? And that's when the transformation in her grows her beyond whatever that painful moment is, and she's able to respond differently to the circumstances. So it is a partnering. I'm literally beside her in that pain, but I'm not owning the pain or the outcome of that in her. That's what's different about self regulation. We have far more to give when we're at peace. Yeah. What was the other part of your question there? Oh, I was thinking about.

Yeah. And you referenced some stuff, even from the Psalms in your book, the Mindful Marriage. But I was thinking about if we want to look at theologically, this idea of emotional self regulation, where in your own work you've kind of pulled the threads of, like this, this passage, this theological principle speaks to what we're talking about.

I know you guys have shared it before, but let me just share it and.

Are you pulling up chat GPT Right now, Ron, on your phone, just the.

Bible, the good old Bible. That's what I'm pulling up. You know Ephesians 4 is a classic, right? Yeah. Where he says in verse 20, he's talking about them having. In the previous section, he's talking about how they've ignored God and people are darkened in their understanding of the world and they've given themselves over to sensuality and to indulge impurities of. And they're full of greed. He said, but that's not the way you learned. When you heard about Christ and were taught in accordance with the truth that is him. You were taught with regard to your former way of life to get your wife to help you to put off your old self.

That's right.

That is not what it says. You were taught to put off your old self, Ron. This is your job, which is being corrupted in its deceitful desires. To be made new, Ron, in the attitude of your mind and to put on the new self created to be like God. For anybody who's listening who may be new to this idea of old self, new self, I want you to listen just real quickly how many times this theme is repeated in the New Testament. So that's Ephesians 4. It is also in Philippians 4. It is also in Galatians 5 and 6. It is also in. Gosh, what else? Colossians 3 is another big one. Take off and put on. It is my job to manage me, to find the parts of my character that are unbecoming, the reactivity in me that is not helpful and to move it into a new space. James, chapter four is another one. One Peter five, five is another one. I mean, this is a massive theme in the New Testament to say to us, we are in the process of growing up into Christ to becoming better people. And you actively must work on this. We're expected to not be the same people we've always been. The whole recreation project that God has implemented in sending Jesus to become king of the universe is to recreate things the way it was meant to be. And anybody who is a new creation in Christ is part of the recreation project now. And I start with me and the people around me and my influence on the world around me. I am trying to help bring the kingdom to earth as it is in heaven. That's my little role in the kingdom project. And if I don't start with me, then I don't get new and I don't bring better things to everybody around me. And that doesn't help Them get new. I mean, that's the bigger spiritual journey going on in this newness project. But the responsibility for that is on me, in alignment with the Spirit and what it's trying to teach me and show me to become, ultimately reflecting the image of Christ. I just think Scripture is full of the living examples of this.

Yeah, I agree.

And there's many. Go ahead, Lance.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think this whole idea. This idea around attachment is we saw the problem.

Right.

But we chose the wrong solution. Right.

We went with the one that we had for children. Like, that's where the attachment research came out of. Like, it sort of makes sense that somebody said, well, you know, this is the way it works with kids. They need somebody to help them calm down and regulate and get some perspective on their circumstances. And somebody's got to hug them. Yeah.

I think about, like, for me, I always. I look at, like, Hebrews 12, where I love this passage where he says, for, like, after running the race, don't lose heart and grow weary and talks about God. God disciplines us like a father to a child.

Right.

If you are not disciplined and everyone undergoes discipline, then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who have disciplined us, and I think discipline is training. Like, this is how I would relate it, and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live. They disciplined us for a little while at as. As they thought best. But God disciplines us for our good in order that we may share in his holiness. No, discipline training seems pleasant at the time, but painful later on. However, it produces a harvest of righteousness. And here's the word peace for those who have been trained by it.

What?

I feel like we forgot to bring in God the Father and like, for. For the lack of, you know, we go back. I mean, this is like, classic. Like, if you want to be a great therapist, you always have to be good at blaming parents. Right. You know, like, so we got to really lay it down there. But I feel like we miss out on the idea that, no, we have God the father on high who fills the gap. And it's not. We keep on putting that person of, like, no, my. My wife is supposed to meet my needs, or my. My husband's supposed to meet my needs here. But no, it's God on high, because that's what creates the righteousness and. And. And the peace that we so need.

What?

I don't know. What do you think, Rhett?

I was just. I was taking some notes. Yeah, I, I don't have to sit on that. I, I, but yeah, the idea that, I think the idea of like training, the discipline, the training. But we're moving from the training of an earthly relationship to one that transcends us, that we access. Because, you know, Terry and RT talks about truth comes from others. It also comes from, you know, God or people who maybe, who aren't, who aren't practicing a faith, a higher source. Even AA will talk about a source beyond that. And Terry would, where I didn't get it at first, but he would say the maybe most important truth is what we believe about ourselves. Right. And so I was thinking about this process of being trained over the years that no one does it perfectly, you know, not our earthly fathers and mothers. And at some point we have to, through training, take on responsibility, ourselves, to step into that truth of who God is calling us to be. And to also, as Terry will say, I like the language for us to take an authoritative, authoritative position in our own life about who we want to be, how we want to show up in this relationship.

There you go.

You know, just trying to get couples of like, what kind of relationship do you want? You know, and how do you show up in this relationship? Man, I love that language. Ron, too, of partnering versus parenting. I've been using that so much. Like, that is not a fun relationship to be in a parenting relationship with an adult spouse.

All that's going to do is trigger your pain. I mean, even when at our best. If I'm trying to parent Nan, well, that's condescending. I mean, you think about it like anything, okay? Now, babe, really, you don't need to worry about this. That's me trying to calm her. That's parenting her. And that posture is just going to trigger her pain and she's going to go, you don't respect me. You don't talk. All of a sudden, now she's reacting to me and I'm reacting to her. We know that's the pain cycle. We know how easily that thing gets set off.

You know what's going to happen if I try to partner in my marriage? I'm going to hear back something like, you are not the boss of me.

You know, and you parent. I think you meant to say, yeah.

Sorry, like parenting, right? If I'm trying to parent. No, like, my wife wants me to show up in a partnering relationship that, that comes alongside. And I guess I'm wondering, why is co regulation so easy? Like, why do we choose that? Is it Just because it feels good in the moment. It's that temporary salve that, like, makes us move on to the next day. And we just keep doing that until we realize it doesn't work.

I have thought about this a lot, and I. I'm not exactly sure, but here's a couple ideas. I. I think there's something true about. Well, I didn't get emotional safety in my childhood. I'm looking for it now. I didn't feel worthy of love as a kid. I'm looking for somebody to tell me I'm worthy of love now. It's sort of like, who will meet that need? And when you say it out loud, it makes sense that you would go, I didn't get it then. I'm looking for it now. Yeah, you're still looking for it from outside of you. What you got to learn how to do is give it to yourself through the lens of who God tells you that you are. So it's rooted in a vertical element outside of me, but it comes from a heavenly father who is perfect in every way and does get to tell me my identity and my worth and my value. And if I could just believe that and I could align my opinion of me with his opinion of me and then act out of that. That's steps three and four. If I can act out of that assumption that I'm worthy, then I begin to notice, wow. I feel better about me separate and apart from whether or not somebody has come along and said, ron, you're worthy. I feel better about me because I believe I'm worthy and I'm acting as if I'm worthy. And that brings something new in me. And of course, we know neuroplasticity says the more you repeat that over and over again, you build new neural pathways. And you actually do believe that about you. It's not just something you're sort of working toward. It's actually something that is now neurologically embedded in you. And by the way, the more I act out of a sense of worthiness, my guess is most of the people who experience me will like me. And ironically, I get a reinforcement that I am a person of worth from the outside. I'm just not dependent on that coming from the outside. So it's romantic to think that my husband or wife can love me enough that all of this pain goes away. That's romantic notion. There's the I didn't get it as a kid. I'm still looking for it as an adult notion. And we never really thought that it might just Be something that comes when I align myself with what God tells me about me. Can I give you guys an example? Sure. Of self regulation in action?

Of course you can.

I don't know if we did this before, but I think even if we did on the last podcast, it's worth doing again. Let me set stage. It's Matthew 26. Jesus has just had the last supper. Jesus has just told his disciples or told Peter. You're going to deny me? Peter's like, what? No, I'm not. They have now walked into Gethsemane. Jesus knows what's coming, all right? He knows what's coming. He's about to be betrayed. He's about to be handed over. He's about to be crucified. And ain't nobody looking forward to that, including the Messiah. Here's what happens in the garden. Watch the self regulation in Jesus and the co regulation, mess, blame, shame, control, escape happening in the disciples. What a contrast. Sit over here while I go and pray. He says to them. He takes Peter and James and John and they go over and he begins to be sorrowful and troubled. He knows what's coming. Anxiety is here. He's triggered. Can we even say that he's triggered? Then he says to them, my soul is overwhelmed to the point of death. This is serious. He's 100ft down and his tank just went empty of air. Stay here and keep watch with me. He has the ability to ask for what he needs. He's reaching out, asking for help. They're not going to give it. He's still going to maintain himself. Watch it going a little further. He falls down in the face. He prays, father, this is possible. Take this cup from me. Think about that for a second. He's basically having a conversation with God going, don't want to do this. I really don't want to do. Is there any other way? I know there's no other way. I will submit. I will surrender my will. What a decision based on the truth of what needs to happen. He's willing to take that sacrifice and be responsible for it. Then he turns to his disciples and what are they doing? Sleeping. That's escape. Blame, shame, control, escape. Watch it escape. And then he says, couldn't you keep watch? Like, hey, I need you. Stay with me. He goes and prays again a second time. Again they fall asleep. He comes back and he says again, are you still sleeping? Are you still resting? Look, the hour has come. My betrayer is here. In comes Judas. This is controlled. Judas has decided, I know how to push Jesus to the forefront and make him do something that will establish an earthly kingdom here on earth. I'm helping the cause, and so I'm betraying him. I know that's crazy backward, but I think that's what's going on in him. And of course it's not the right thing. And what does Jesus do when they show up? Oh, he gets out swords and spears and he starts shooting fire. And it. No, he's calm, he's regulated, he's still breathing. He knows exactly what's about to happen, but he doesn't lose himself. Peter pulls out a sword, cuts a guy's ear off. We got some more control, blame going on, right? And what does Jesus do? Knock it off. And then he heals the guy. He maintains himself over and over and over. In the midst of blame, shame, control and escape going on around. We've already had control and blame going on. We've got escape going on. When they're falling asleep, we got anger. And I guess that's blame, isn't it? Anger acting out, cutting off the guy's ear. Next thing you know, he's in. They're taking him to Kyiv. The story goes on and on. Jesus never does what the disciples do, even in the midst of their relationship with them, where he's inviting them to join him in this difficulty, and then they don't. They abandon him into it. They escape out of it. He still maintains himself. That's incredible. If he were like most people, he'd be like, falling apart, totally crushed. You guys fell asleep. I mean nothing to you. Oh, my goodness. I guess this is all for. You can just see somebody kind of waiting for the co regulation to show up. No, he speaks directly. He tells them he's disappointed, but he doesn't lose himself in the process. That's the guy I want to be. Even when my wife looks at me with disappointment, which is one of my big pain points, disappointing people and being inadequate, even in that moment, I want to be able to go, wait a minute, what's going on with me? I'm feeling inadequate. What do I usually do? Blame, control. I make it about her. What's the truth? I don't have to be adequate. God's doing it. He's covered me and I'm worthy and I'm lovable. I may have screwed up. I may have something to face. It's okay. So what am I going to do? Honey, tell me. What is it? How have I disappointed you? I need to hear that. Totally different. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to become.

Feels way more righteous to be able to step into the divide because I think this is the, the other thing we do outside of co regulation is just no regulation.

Yeah.

Where we run away anything. This is like the classic other thing you hear in relationships. Like one is like we have to meet my needs, do all this other stuff and the other is that I am just alone. Right. I am so, so done. Like we're, we're like it. When she gets like that, when he gets like that, I just, you know, it's like that, you know that no regulation piece where we just kind of run away. Yeah. I think that's being able to show up and, and to be able to lean in. You know, I think that's, that's so important in relationship that we can be like from a regulated place to be able to speak into what's going on in the moment.

When you said no regulation, that reminded me of your last conversation with Terri and Sharon where you guys were talking about society. The destructive entitlement is the no regulation. Like I don't care anymore. I have the right to be vicious toward you either in word, indeed whatever it might be. I have the right to do that and I have no need of changing anything about me because you're the cause and blame and whatever that is destructive at every single level. What I, I mean at the end of the day, here's what we're saying. Self control is the first step. Always when I get dysregulated it's. And it requires a humility that I would be even willing to say, you know what? This is more about me than it is about you or the circumstances I need to with me. And once I get to a better place self regulating again. I don't want our listeners to think, oh, that fixes all the problems in the relationship. No, it doesn't fix. Well, it fixes society. No, it's only when I calm down that I can look at the problems. It's only then that I can bring a better me to the dialogue about our problems. It's only when I regulate me that I'm in a position to be helpful. I mean Matthew 7, the piece we all forget about specs and logs. Why do you look at the spec. The other person's eye. Right. That's focusing on them instead deal with the log in your own eye. It's the last part that is so important and in so doing dealing with your own log. Then you can be helpful to the other self regulation. You get your Self regulated. Now, you're an asset to this situation. Rather than more of the problem or part of the problem or exasperating the problem, you do a better you. So you can bring that to the equation and you might actually be helpful to the other person or to the relationship. That's the end game. Everybody wins.

I was also thinking too, just to bring it even out of the biblical world here for a second. I think self control. Terry talks a little bit about virtues. David Brooks writes on virtues. Plato, Socrates talked about the importance of self control. I'm thinking about, you know, I love. I know stoicism is really, you know, the hot thing right now. But even like Marcus Aurelius, his book Meditations, the whole cardinal virtue of self control is critical. You know, flowing out of the ancient world, which Paul was a part of. And Paul was debating these people and talking through these people and trying to have them see a different, you know, obviously see through a different lens. And so I guess I just said out loud to say, whoever's listening, no matter what background you come from, like, we're talking about something that from the beginning of time has been taught as a critical piece to ourselves and relationships. And maybe along the way, that's gotten lost.

I know it has.

Yeah. And I just, you know, if you look at our culture right now, you look at politics, you look at the news, self control is not popular. And I think no one's modeling that very well. And so it's like, why should I control myself?

Okay, to your point, I want to share a little fun fact and then pull out an irony. You guys mentioned Baummeister, right? His research on self control. Guys, I recently read that massive book that he did on self control and self regulation. Do you guys know the two things that predict thriving better than anything in the universe for individuals all across the world? Number one, your iq. If you're able to process information, think, digest, make decisions, that's really important. It makes sense. If somebody has difficulty with that or has a brain injury or something, like all of a sudden, thriving changes, right? But the second one is the ability to use self control out of everything that's ever been studied. That's number two, because if you have self control, when you're supposed to be studying for a test, you turn off the video game and you study for the test. If you have self control, you stop at the stop sign and you consider other people and nobody gets hurt. If you have self control, you say, you know what the boss said? Buckle down and get it done. And I really want to play hooky right now and look at Instagram. But you know what? I need to put that phone down and do my job. That's self control. And he makes this case for it predicts thriving at every level of society. More than anything. It is unbelievable. I've never heard that in my entire life. I've been a marriage and family therapy professional for 32, three years, been in family ministry for 38 years. I'd never heard anybody talk about that. Now here's what's so ironic. We assume self control in so many of our models of therapy. Think about, think about speaker listener technique and all the things that we've taught people about. When you get into conflict, what you need to do is take a pause, maybe take a time out, or when you have something you need to bring up with your spouse. Soft startup, Gottman versus hard startup. Right? Come with a softness about how you what's required in order to manage your anger and have a soft startup instead of a hard self control, instead of turning to your spouse and saying and reacting to something they say, but instead doing a reflective statement. What do you have to have in order to do that? Self control. Like our models assume self control. Here's what's ironic. We've never taught people how to put on self control in their dysregulated moments. That's the point. Like when I'm calm and happy, you guys, we're having a great conversation here. It's a lively one. I got a lot of self control. I'm not dysregulated right now, but all of a sudden, tap into something deep within me and I'll just lose it and can I put it on? Then that's the moment of truth. We've never taught people how to do it. It's so interesting. We've assumed they have it when they need it, but they don't. Unless they can learn to self regulate, in which case then all those other skills, the speaker listener technique, the soft startup, the eft, turn towards your partner instead of turning away. All of that stuff becomes available to me because I have self control. But if I don't put on self control first, I can't use any of it.

My favorite Terry quote is, you know, you're really, really good, except for when you're bad.

That's right, you're bad. And when you're bad, you're really, really bad.

In my case, you're really bad.

That's it.

Like, yes, emotional regulation. That, that is, that is our magic sauce towards healing Hope and freedom that you know that's being offered.

So in some ways, like the Pain and peace cycle, the, the pathway through the four steps is, is a journey to self control. And when we're self controlled, we're able to emotionally regulate. And when we emotionally regulate, we show up in relationship. We show up to ourselves in that new self. Right. In that, in that peace cycle, if you will.

That's it.

I like that. Ron.

Here's my.

I think about self control a lot more. Just that virtue that's important reading Bomb.

Master taught me something. Self regulation. Self regulation is a subset of self control. It's actually a subtopic of the idea of self control. And when I connected that, I was like, oh, got it. It's under the realm of self control. It's an expression of. It's one aspect of, if you will, but it's me managing my emotion as best I can. Here's my new tagline. What are we really after here with people? Well, first, what we're after, because this is the first thing we got to do. All the other things, there's other things that come after this. But in my worst moments, I want to put on self control so I can bring a better me to the next moment. Let me say that again. In my worst moments, I want to put on self control in order to bring a better me to the next moment. If I can accomplish that, then the next moment has a chance of being constructive, being redemptive, being a repair of a ruptured relationship. It moves in the right direction. If I don't bring a better me to the next moment, all I'm bringing is a dysregulated me to the next moment. And that just makes things worse for everybody. Yeah.

I'm going to bring it back then to Hebrews 12. Lance, what you were saying. So disciple, you know, in the Greek, is, is. Is. Is someone who learns. It's a, it's a, it's a learner. It's a, it's. It's an apprentice. Right. And, and it flows out of that, the kind of, the language there of discipline. So when we're disciplined, we're trained. It's a learner who's being trained in a process. And so just thinking about your connection to Hebrews 12 is that part of being disciplined and trained is that we learn through that process of being self controlled. Paul uses a language a lot in the imagery of athletics. An athlete who trains themselves, who disciplines himself. Right. And so to couch it in this whole idea that we are Learning and training as people, as athletes, to put on self control. And when we put on self control, we are able to. Yeah. Take that authoritative position, not only in our own life to take that stance, but maybe hear that from other people that helps us step into our truth. Hear that from God for those maybe who aren't Christian, to hear that from a source beyond them that helps them step into that truth. I don't know, I just. I had to think about your Hebrews 12, and as you guys are talking about self control, it's like it all fits together. The work of Baummeister just. And the work of RT.

Yes. First Timothy 5 says, Train yourself to be godly.

Yeah.

Not just lay around and wait till you're godly. Not just. And I'll point out to my Christian friends, not just wait for the spirit to make you godly. Train yourself to begin. It's an active training process. It's like an athlete. That's the analogy he's using in that passage. It's like an athlete is learning how to do their craft. You got to practice, practice, practice. Work, work, work, work. And what you're doing is training yourself to align with what God is telling you is true and to live out of that truth. Just because I. This is so important, because this is the heart of spiritual formation. Just because I know what's true doesn't mean it changes me.

Yeah.

We seem to think that in church these days. Right. All you need is a good sermon.

I know.

All you need is insight.

All you need is insight and a good sermon. And somebody's to tell you, ron, this is your pain cycle. Great. It doesn't change me. What changes me is when I align myself with a truth that moves me beyond my pain cycle and I do something to move in that direction, I take action. That's training yourself to be godly.

Yeah. By the way, I'm mindful of time. I do want to mention that Ron was so kind to us. He gave us this really cool PDF that. That hits on a lot of these issues that's. That are coming up. You know, we didn't even get into. I was excited to talk about how we fall into like, well, this is my personality, so I'm stuck this way. I think this is another piece. Like, this is the training. If you know your personality, then you know the training you need to step into. You can't use that as your fallback of. So you have to put up with me.

Hey, bro, I'm just an enneagram9.

That's right. You got to deal with it. That's. Yeah, that's exactly what everybody does with personality stuff.

Yeah.

At all the assessments that are available for leadership and servanthood. And on and on it goes. Are you an enf? I'm an enfj. What are you? And those are all insight oriented, and they're really helpful, and they do sort of help you look in the mirror and go, oh, yeah, I can see that about me. But the point is, can you put on self control about the parts of you that are not helpful when the moment counts? Self control is easy when I'm good. It's when I'm bad that it's really hard. Yeah.

I think there was a desire, I was thinking even, like, you know John. John Mark Comer's new, not kind of newest book, Practicing the Way. I have a lot of friends reading it. I've read it, but no one's practicing it because I think that it's like, oh, like they want the insight, but the actual laying out of the practice, that's. That's too much work.

Dude. I'm with you. I've been listening to a lot of spiritual formation podcasts, and they. That's where they all stop. Sharp, short. And that's where Terry is master, because he has operationalized the change process. I really want to have a conversation with John Mark Comer. I am totally with him on so much of what he's talking about. It's the how do I then do it? That people get stuck. They have great insight, but they don't know how to implement. And that's what the four steps do. So if you're listening and you're really unfamiliar with the four steps, start with yourself, because that's when you realize how hard this thing is and how much growth potential there is in it, and just start playing with those four steps, because, my goodness, in the doing, that's where your knowing becomes reality.

It's an unlocker, man. I think. So let's talk. Like, we have a few minutes left here. How can we help people to practice better? Like, this is, like, at the end of the day, like, let's, let's get in the room. Let's. Let's get them outside the room practicing. Like, what are the things that you're seeing that help people to remember to practice their four steps? Like, what would y' all say?

Well, I. I would say practicing in the room is so important because you're. You're. You're trying to make it. You're connecting the dots for people. Oh, this is what it means for me to. Oh, okay. Here's a technique that I remember you guys had. Tanner on.

Love that guy.

Fantastic ideas. Loved. Learned so much from that. Something I've done for a number of years is adopted. You ever heard of Sharad squares? There's a guy named Sharad who is a communication guru expert, and he created this technique one time to just sort of help people become more aware of how emotion moves them toward and away from one another. I think you can adapt this with the four steps. And so I'll have a couple stand up in a room, for example, and I'll go, okay, stand about this far apart from one another. And let's imagine you're standing on a checkerboard. You're on your one square. There's a square between you. You're on the other square. There's squares beside you, behind you, everywhere. It's a checkerboard. And then I'll say, we're just talking there a minute about the conflict that you had the other day. Why don't you show me with your behavior how that went? And it's amazing how quickly people grasp that. And she'll step back over three squares and turn away from him. And I'm like, okay, good. What was the emotion you were feeling before you took that move? Why did you do that? And all of a sudden, they're connecting pain with coping, and you can see it in real time. And then I'm like, okay, then what happened? And the guy's like, well, then I pursued her, so I guess I moved over here. And he's walking across the board. He's trying to stand beside her. And she's still got her back to him, right? I mean, they're seeing themselves in motion. They're getting a camera on who they are in pain and how they act out. And it sort of puts a real life. So then you back it up and you go, okay, let's do the peace cycle. And you have them say, next time when you feel that same pain, because that trigger is going to happen again, what you normally do is go back and over and turn away. Show me what it would look like to do step four. And you have them physically in the room on checkerboards. Act it out. I find that's a way to help people make it concrete, what they're doing when they go home. I've had couples come back to me and go, yeah, we kind of made our living room the checkerboard. And I'm like, all on your own? They just sort of spontaneously said, wait a minute, you just moved across. And they start thinking differently about their movement and what I'm doing and how that impacts what you're doing. And all of a sudden it takes on a reality that they're able to repeat in better ways at home. That's just one little thing that I found is. Can be helpful for people.

Yeah, I think that's so good. Like that reminder, that piece you can see at the checkers. Yeah, I like that. What about you, Rhett?

Well, how do I help people do that? Get into that.

I try to get people to practice.

Practice Checkers reminded me a little bit about. I have these hula hoops in my office and I have four of them. I used to just kept keep two and I keep four. And just to physically embody it, I'll have people step in. I'll. In my office is not huge, but I'll lay them across the floor and they'll feel theirselves in that first hula hoop and I'll practice them, help them practice saying, this is how I. This is how I feel. And then move to that next hoop. This is. This is how I cope. Right. And then practice that transition into the truth. Step three, what's the truth about who I am? And then four, what's that action you want to take? And I'll just try to play around with that physical embodiment, have them in space. And I'll have people come back and say. And I don't give them this language, but I had a guy one point come in and say I'm standing in my hula hoopa truth, for example. And so they can picture themselves at home or in their work environment standing in a hula hoop. And so I. That. That's really helpful. You know, sometimes I'll have people. I think I picked this up from Terry, just writing stuff on pieces of paper and having them hold it and read their. Their pain and then read like their truth. And just like that, that I've noticed is really helpful. But you know, I've always said this is an area of growth for me. It's a continuity of growth, is becoming more experiential in the room with people and helping them move through these things. And that's why I like to talk to you two.

Yeah. I got two other thoughts that have been helpful for me in the past to help people practice. One is just creating the expectation that I'm going to. They're going to have to tell me about how they practice. And so it could be. I Set them up to win with a. Okay, so let's have fun with this, because practicing when you're calm, it's really, really important in the beginning. If you can pull it off when you're dysregulated, that's even better. But let's just go for calm. So tell me a fun conversation you can have in the car over the next seven days. That will be a practice session. Right. And I kind of get them to say it to me then. And then I say, okay, next week I'm going to ask you guys how that practice go in the car when you're driving to church or school or whatever in life. And I set them up with an easy thing that they can do that's just rehearsing the four steps that's not in real time dysregulation. But the second thing I'll say is, and by the way, if you have a spontaneous moment where you go through the four steps again, I would love for you to tell me about that when we start our session. Next time I'm setting up the expectation that they have homework to do that I'm going to sit down and I do this the next session. I'll go, hey, so how'd it go? I don't ask, how you feeling? Today I come back with accountability.

Let's do your work.

Did you practice? I want to hear about it. We're starting with that. And if you didn't, well, it's okay. I'm not, you know, we're going to keep going. Let's practice now. But then when that session's over, they pretty much learn, hey, he expects us to do our work. And if I don't set up that expectation, they're not going to hold themselves to it.

Yeah, that's good.

Well, I could talk to you guys all day, but I actually have to go do some therapy. But I am going to see you both in person in like six weeks. And maybe we'll sit down for. Maybe we'll record a conversation.

Fun. Yeah. Looking forward to seeing you guys. It'll be good.

Yeah, it's going to be great.

Thanks for coming on today. We will put all this stuff, all the show notes, all the people references in the show notes. We'll also attach the PDF that you sent us around. Around. Yeah. Which is super helpful around co regulation.

Remember marriage, guys pick up mindful marriage.

And we just need to come back on and talk about some stuff more. I feel like there's just. I like the feeling like, yeah, there's a lot to go. There's a lot to talk about. I'm like, right. I'm busy taking a lot of notes over here as we're talking, so. Ron, thanks for your time. I really appreciate it.

You bet. Appreciate you guys.

Take care.