Season 1 | Episode 37 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Marcial Felan

What's up, Lance?

Good morning, man. It's good to see you, my friend. It's really good.

It's good to see you.

Yeah. This weekend I just did a level two training with Terry, so. Great. And I guess people listen to this podcast thing. It's pretty cool.

Yeah, you texted me on Friday and said that someone came up and said, hey, are you the Lance from the podcast?

It's so funny.

Stream.

So.

So it's crazy. I guess I just thought it was us hanging out, but I guess we have other people hanging out with us.

Yeah, well, we would still hang out if it was just you and I and a guest, so that we'll do it regardless if people are listening. But we're glad people are listening. And, you know, you and I won't banter here too long. I'll let you go ahead and just like, introduce our guest and we'll jump into it this morning.

Okay. Well, man, ladies and gentlemen, today we are very blessed with a very good friend of mine. This is actually my supervisor when I was going through getting my hours done, Dr. Martial Falon, who really took me underneath his wing. He'll probably tell the story on how he felt led to do that. Sometimes we have to get people. Sometimes we need a little extra little push to take care of a person. But I really owe a lot to this man and the way that he has cared for me over the years and just such a gift. Just. Just a little bit of a resume for you with Dr. Martial Falan. This man has done it all. He is connected with everybody. He was. I. I don't remember the order, so. Forgive me, but I know you did prison ministry, right, with.

Yes.

Was it Merlin Crothers or Chuck Colson?

Chuck colson, yeah. For 20 years.

With Chuck Colson for 20 years. So, you know, this. This guy's been. Been around some characters, I imagine, and then we. Martial also worked at Shadow. Shadow Mountain with Dr. David Jeremiah for years and then found his way into doing therapy. Great therapist. Just really likes to integrate scripture into his work, the. The spirit and. And the like. So today we're probably going to lean into that. He also has some really good. If you ever need anger management materials, you know, sometimes you have clients that are struggling with anger. Martial has developed his own anger management materials.

So.

Martial, welcome.

Thank you, Lance. Thank you, Rhett. Good to be with you guys. Thank you for inviting me.

Yeah. And probably most important, Lance, he is splitting time between Texas in California.

Yeah.

He like, bridges the gap here in our podcast.

Yeah, I'm a Texifornian. That sounds kind of funky, but you know.

Calyx. Yeah, like all these calyx all over your head. Callas Cali. I don't know.

Tell me.

Actually, I'm curious share the story how you two met and why you did feel led to take Lance under your wing and become a supervisor.

Yeah, well, Lance, as I correct me Lance, if I'm forgetting some of the details, but I don't know which one happened first, but I think in 2012. Yep. Terry Hargreaves spoke at North Coast Calvary Chapel for Jeff Reinke at a Saturday morning Terry and Sharon and they presented RT and, and I was there and that was my first exposure to restoration therapy. And I was, you know, when I heard it, I said, man, that makes sense. That makes sense. And I was really intrigued. And I think it was shortly after that that, that Lance graduated from Fuller. Was that 2012 Lance when you graduated, or 13?

June 2012.

2012. So Lance graduated and he interviewed with the counseling center that I was working for at the time after I, I counseled at Shadow Mountain community church with Dr. David Jeremiah and the family ministries department for 11 years. And after I left that I went to work at the now is known as center for Enriching Relationships. Then it was family Consultation Services. And so I was working there and counseling and when I heard Terry and then shortly after that I was introduced to told Lance was going to come in and do his internship there. And we met and I was, I then I, I met with Sharon Hargraves on talking about marriage Strong. I think at that time it was.

Called is Strong Marriages Successful Ministries back there.

Strong Marriages Successful Ministries. And I, I learned about that. And so then when Lance came, he knew Restoration Therapy. And I thought, hey Lance, tell me about this.

This is my supervisor, guys.

Well, yeah, I, I told Red this.

Is the type guy we have and I, I want to be like martial when I grow up. Like, I always want to be curious like you.

Well, thank you Lance, because you, you know, Lance taught me RT and and then shortly after that I wanted more. And then I think in 2014, Terry did his first Level 1 training up at Fuller. And I was a part of that first class. I jumped on that like just like a hot potato. I, I wanted that and went through it and it was so good and, and then, then, but in this process, literally, God, I, I don't know how he. I didn't hear an audible voice, but I felt a leading in my heart. God said, help Lance. Help Lance. And that's how it. That's how it got started. And so Lance, I introduced him. We. We took Strong Marriages, Successful Ministries to a local seminary. I introduced Lance to the. The dean of that MFT program, and Lance taught there. And I went to training with Sharon and, and up at. Up at Malibu for that. And we wanted to see that start in San Diego. You know, we didn't get too far away from that. But all the while Lance and I were working together. He's teaching me RT and I'm occasionally supervising him. And. And it was really a. What, What? A synergistic. That's the word. Synergistic. And so then shortly after the level one training, Terry offered level two and guess who signed up. I got to be certified Level two and that in his first level two course, at least out here in California. And so it just grew from there. But Lance and I got to do some stuff for the Southern Baptist San Diego Association. We teamed up to do Strong Marriages Again, Successful Ministries, and we spoke in a few churches together. And it just again. And, and Lance continued on and he's just been a wonderful, wonderful colleague. You know, he may say I supervise him, but really he supervised me and rt. He's been my. When I grow up, I want to be like Lance. RT guy. I still do really appreciate. Appreciate you, Lance. And now thank you have your doctorate. And that's so cool.

And Martial introduced me to. I don't know how much we've talked about the Rankies on here, but they're just this, you know, you talk about people that, that are really good Restoration therapy, like people, the Rankies. Martial introduced me to them, which then led to me moving up to north county and eventually Jennifer gets the job at North Coast Calvary Chapel. That's where Jeff worked. So Martial is like, literally, I would not be here if it weren't for Martial. Like this is. This is this man. So I am very thankful.

Give glory to God, Lance. And it was all his doing.

Because I am so thankful to God that, that he told me, told you to help me. You did. You listened well.

And I am too, because it's been a wonderful relationship relationship as I've been able to grow and use RT now almost with. Almost with every client at some point in my therapy and you know, and, and then getting to go to the summit. I've been to two summits. And in fact, I was on my way through the fires to that one summit and could see the flames at the top of the hill at Topanga Canyon there I had to turn around and go back. But yeah, I forgot about Jeff. I was, that happened because I was counseling at North Coast Calvary Chapel with Jeff Reink. He opened up the door for me to do some part time counseling there. And as I was leaving I thought of this other wonderful, bright rising star, Lance all who would be a great person to take my place. And so I introduced, I introduced him. That's right. I forgot about that. Lance introduced you to Jeff and Lance started doing hours there. I think you were still interning then. Yeah. And counseled there and met relationship with Jeff. And then Jennifer. Just so wonderful and beautiful how that works, man.

I am, I am extremely thankful for you, brother. I just, I have to say it.

Thank you. Lance says, I am grateful for you and you too, Rhett. Thank you. Because I remember, Rhett, when I got to hear you speak about anxiety at that first Summit.

Oh man, 2016.

I think I still have all of those slides from that. That's so good.

It's funny, you know, you look back and it's, you know, I'm listening to your stories and it speaks a lot about, to the community that Sharon and Terry have fostered over the years. Like boots on the ground, people getting involved, everyone doing different things. Terry letting me speak when really I didn't have, I really probably shouldn't have been up there. And he's like, get up there and speak on anxiety and how he's mentored me over the years. And now we're at this place just to kind of see the beauty of all, all the stories, you know. And I was thinking, I, you know, I learned RT when it was just the pain and peace cycle for me at, at the Hideaway marriage intensive in 2010. And then I in 2014 went out to Pasadena to do level one and then do level two in that 2014, 2015. And had, you know, Terry supervising me through a computer screen.

Yeah.

Why? He's in California, I'm in Texas and he's listening and watching the couple on the couch that I'm working with. And here we are. It's just, it says a lot how God just weaves people's lives and stories together in a beautiful tapestry that we could never have done on our own.

Yes.

And an encouragement to everybody listening. You know, if you love RT and you're interested, just get involved somewhere. Take that, that love you have of RT and, and do something in your community. And it's amazing the work that God will do with that.

Absolutely.

For sure. Yeah.

You know, one of the things I I just kind of. This is kind of a vague question. You know, we can get into the weeds, but one of the things that Lance really said about you, Martial, is that, you know, your just love for integration, and, you know, that's an important aspect of the RT model, is our ability to integrate specifically theology and our faith and biblical principles into it. And I'm just curious if that was just something that came natural to you from your background in ministry, or is it something you had to work really hard at?

Well, that's a. Thank you for bringing that up, Rhett. It's something that I was first trained, got my Masters of Divinity trained to be. Actually preparing to be a prison chaplain. I never did work. Well, I did work for one year in a prison directly, but after that, I worked in the prison fellowship ministry with Chuck Colson, more so equipping and mobilizing volunteers to do the ministry in the prison. And. But my first training is that of a pastor learning how to apply. To interpret and apply the Scriptures to people's lives. And a phrase I like to like to hear. Like to say that I heard from my pastor, David Jeremiah, who has also been a very big influence in my life. I've sat under his teaching since 1989 and then got to work closely with him for 11 years there in the church is, he says, applying the word of life to the issues of life. And so that was my first love. And then as I was. Well, actually, it started before I was. After I finished my mdiv. There were couples in my Sunday school class that were going through divorce, and I tried to help them, and I had my little training that I had. I. I took a lot of counseling in my. In my Master Divinity work, but I felt so inept and inadequate to help these couples that were going through divorces. And so I said, if I ever have a chance to go back to school and study something, I want to study marriage and family counseling. And be careful what you say, because then God opened the door. Literally one day I was at a pastor's meeting and. And a man who was in charge of the doctor Ministry program at Bethel Seminary in San Diego, a man who I'd known for many years through prison ministry, he literally pointed his finger at me and he says, you need to be in the doctor of Ministry program. Wow. Whoa, man. I says, are you reading my mail? Because I had been praying about doing something like that, but I didn't know what. And I said, if I ever do, I wanted to do a marriage and families. Marriage and families counseling and guess what? Lo and behold, God opened up a Master of Divinity at Bethel Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota, in marriage and family studies. And so guess who jumped on that bandwagon again? And I spent three years traveling to the frigid North Midwest, two, two weeks in the winter, two weeks in the summer, going through the Master Divinity in Marriage and Family Studies there, which I graduated from in 1999. But I had that foundation of Scripture already. And so integration is just. It's who I am. People will come to me, and they're not necessarily Christians, although most of the people on my caseload are Christians. They find me because of my background in Christianity, having degrees in theology as well as in marriage and family therapy. Even if they're not Christians, I tell them I'm a faith based counselor. And if you're not offended by that, I will use that where I can to try to help you. But always I'm not here to cram the Bible down your throat, but that's where I'm coming from. That's kind of my, my foundation. And usually people are. Do that. And I say, can I open. I like to open each session in prayer. I like to close in a prayer, and may I do that? And they say, yeah, yeah, go ahead. That's fine. Most people don't object. And if they do, if they say, no, okay, yeah, I won't do it. But so I guess I'm answering your question, Rhett.

Yeah, no, I. It sounds like it comes really natural, you know, and I was looking at, you know, your background going from Point, Point Loma Nazarene to Denver, Denver Seminary, over to Bethel. You've had a wide range of theological interfacing, you know, with different backgrounds of theology and stuff. And so, yeah, I would imagine that's been really helpful in your own experience as a therapist and working with people who come from a wide variety of backgrounds. Theologically.

Yeah. And then in the Prison Fellowship Ministries, we were a parachurch ministry, so I worked interdenominationally there as well, you know, exposed to conservative parts of the faith, the charismatic, the also the very, I would say liberal, you know, people in terms of interpretations and application of Scripture. So we kind of worked with a broader, a broad base of folk as long as they wanted to show love of God to prisoners and, and believed in Jesus Christ. Hey, come on, let's go. We're my. One of my favorite phrases that I used to say I still do is say, hey, let's, let's go give them heaven. Let's go give them Heaven.

And they're. And yeah. In their hell, man. I think.

Yeah.

We had Dr. Tasha on here a while back, and she. She did prison ministry as well as. I think that's such a special place for a person. Yeah. To. To be willing to. To go and. And to be in a place of, you know, where people are literally stuck and to be able to care for them.

Yeah, it was very fruitful. It still is. Prison fellowship. Chuck Colson died, I think in 2013, 2012, but the ministry is still flourishing. Discipling prisoners intensive there do. They're giving them seminary degrees and they're doing a lot of wonderful things. Long. They've come a long way since the 25 years that I left them, but they're still doing a wonderful work. And one I heard a man say recently that was so true is you don't have to tell a prison inmate that he's a sinner. He already knows it. And those. And. And so many of them are ready to turn to Christ. They. They're what. They've been trusting him, which is what happened to me. That's how I got involved in prison ministry. I didn't do prison time. I did local county jail time. But that's how the Lord impressed upon me and opened my eyes to that need. Much the same way he opened my eyes to the need for marriage and family counseling. And. And how God. How God. Just like you said the tapestry, Rhett, how he. How he. I like. I've heard a phrase. I heard the phrase from R.C. sproul, the choreography of the Holy Spirit, how he just orchestrates things so beautifully in our lives. And that's. I can certainly praise God and. And testify to that in my life.

Yeah. I'm trying to think of that Greek word that Eugene Peterson writes about in one of his books that it describes the Holy Spirit. It's as in. Not the Holy Spirit, the Trinity as engaged in a dance. It's like a. It's like a choreographed dance. He writes. Really? Huh.

Is it Paracletus?

I don't know. I'll have to look it up at some point here. But it's a really beautiful word. And you know, Eugene Peterson writes really beautiful on it in one of his later, like, books and stuff. So. But I, you know, Lance, I was curious as he took you under your wing here, did you learn a lot of integration in this experience, this relationship that you two have? Is that where some of the. Because you also came from an MDIP background also, and you were maybe ready to have that, you know, and not every therapist, it's hard to kind of sometimes figure out how to bring pieces together. And so I'm wondering about your guys relationship and if integration was a big piece of that learning, that process.

Yeah, I would say it was pretty big. You know, I think one of the tough parts about getting trained as a marriage family therapist is we have to really, like, we really have to learn to be like, respectful of our like autonomy is really important and therapy. So this kind of subject around like integration and talking about faith was always kind of in the, you know, the gray area for, for me as a therapist. I remember I worked at the San Diego Vet Center. I had a lot of veterans I was working with from like Vietnam and the Korean War and Desert Storm and OIF OEF like who had experienced that. And I had my, my supervisor there was like, you can use it, but just be mindful about how you use it. And so I was always like, is this okay? You know, so I think Martial really taught me, like with his informed consent, like, like, how do you talk about it from the, from the get go? And then. So that was really helpful because I was always kind of, you know, very sensitive. Like I'm not here to proselytize people. Right.

That's.

Obviously, as a therapist we do not want to do that. However, as therapists, we, we can be very pastoral and caring and using the resources of scripture and you know, and from that, you know, I've had, you know, a lot of. I've worked with everybody, so I've had a lot of non believers that have come in my office and you know, they've, they've ended up coming to faith during the process. So I think it's pretty neat to, to see like how God can kind of orchestrate things or choreograph things, as you were saying earlier. But yeah, Marcial really taught me about using that informed consent in the beginning of therapy to, to make sure your clients have a sense of freedom on how to express themselves amongst. And then we would just talk about, you know, just talking about RT and the scriptural elements that are there. And I always, I mean, I have a great time talking with anybody about that because I just love, I, I love talking about RT and I love talking about Jesus. So it's like heaven.

Yeah, I, I want to say Lance already came like you said, Red. He had his M. Div. He had that scriptural foundation already. And so it was just a natural, a natural relationship for us to integrate that and to work with pastors and to work with, with people of faith to bring that into, into therapy, to expose people to. Along with rt.

What, what was it about when you were there at North Coast Calvary? What. What year was it? 2012. And you heard Terry and Sharon speak that morning on rt? Like, I'm always curious about what the, what it was that was like that, that, like, caught. That caught someone that, you know, that hooks somebody into. Like, I really like this model. I want to go this direction. Was there something that you remember that really stuck out to you that's like, okay, I want to learn more about rt.

I think probably the, the biggest thing was the simplicity of it. And yet how clear and how, like I said, the phrase that went through my mind, which I hear from many people when I present, you know, the, the framework is that makes sense. That makes sense. And, and, and that's what I said, and that's what I hear many people say when I present it. And it just, it fits, you know, that we, we feel certain things and we react. We do certain things. The coping actions. It's. Yeah, I mean, you can't get away from that. That's what, it's what we do, and that's what gets us into trouble. And so when I heard that, I said, yeah, I mean, you know, when you sit with couples and you work with couples. And I had, I had learned a lot of different cycles. Gary Smalley, I think, was the first one with the. The Fear Dance. I don't know if you remember the Fear Dance. Gary Smalley in his book DNA of Relationships, introduced to Fear Dance. And I studied that and worked underneath. Well, learned under him, some. And then who? Sharon. Sharon Morris May Lance you. She supervised you and did work under her with her negative spin cycle. It's an EFT model. It's a Christian version of eft, Safe haven marriage that Sharon Morris May has developed. But I trained under her as well. So I had already been exposed to a couple of cyclical models. I think there was one more. I can't remember what it is there, but there was like three of them. And, and then I heard. And then RT and, and the Pain and Peace cycle. And it kind of. Because what was lacking in the Fear Dance that Gary Smalley came up with, it's a good, it's a good cycle. It really makes a lot of sense. It's very similar to Pain and Peace cycle, but is, what do you do? How do you help couples out of it? Yeah. And it was like, okay, now what do we do? But this had a solution with the Peace cycle, self regulation, you know.

Yeah, I think Emerson Egerix, in the book Love and Respect, he has called the crazy cycle.

That's the third. Yeah, that was the other one.

But it's only rooted in love and respect as the two core areas. And I remember when I went to the Hideaway, they had me and I say they, I don't remember if it was required, but they had me read the DNA of relationships. I think to only help me understand that we were going to look at some patterns. But when I sat down in 2010 at the Hideaway, the language of restoration therapy wasn't in place at that point, but the pain and peace cycle language was. And so I think it's interesting to think about the development over time and all of us watching the pieces come together, that feels really, I don't know, special. To see something like this and to see people like Terry and Sharon and others work really hard to make it, as you say, simple and clear.

Yeah, that's the beauty of it. I.

I'm thinking about this integration piece and then I'm thinking about the peace cycle and getting out of it. And this is a, I think Lance and I would like your wisdom on this. I mean everyone can get to their pain cycle pretty quickly, like they can recognize it. But to get somebody into their truth and the peace is very challenging. And I'm wondering for you over the years, what are some ways that you've done that or interventions in terms of helping people move into their piece to embody their truth?

That is the challenge for sure, probably more than anything else. Rhett, I use the reparenting. I'll do three targets.

Good.

Think of one as early on as you can remember painful situation, when you felt those painful emotions and, and then picture yourself there in that situation. What would you say to yourself that you know now as a, let's say 35 year old truth, you know now that would comfort 8 year old self, let's say, who's feeling unloved, rejected, abandoned. What would you say? What did you know now? And, and, and it's amazing because I do work mostly with, with Christian folk how they'll say, hey, you know what? I didn't know Jesus back then, but I would tell them Jesus loves you and he's with you and, and you're going to get through this and, and you're going to be better off for it. And, and so, you know, I, I always tell them ahead of time now the reason we're doing this is because we're going to Draw from these three scenarios. Truth for your peace cycle that's designed to help regulate you, to calm you when those painful emotions arise. And so they'll do that. And then I'll take them through something. If, let's say if they're 35 year old, I'll put some. I'll try to have them come up with a painful situation maybe in their late early 20s. You know, something midway between where they are now. Think of a painful situation. Maybe it was a breakup, maybe it was getting fired. Maybe it was when you got an F. Excuse me, One of your college classes or something. A painful situation tied to those painful emotions that you identified in your pain cycle. And then speak truth. And then the last one is their current self. Now picture yourself in your current feeling those things. What would you say? And then after that, I always take rigorous notes of what they say and I repeat it back to them and I have them say, now is that what you said? Did. Did I capture it? Yeah, that's what I said. Okay, good. All right, let's do the next one. And so then we'll draw words. Three or four words. And usually. And those usually come pretty quickly, but I want to make sure they're tied to those experiences of their. Through their re. Parenting. That's probably the one I use the most to get to the peace cycle. I've tried others. You know, the, the split screen. We've done the split screen. You know, the words up on the screen and that thing. I liked it. But I. Back to the, to the reparenting, the. The three targets. And usually people. Well, a lot of tears often that come through, come from that. But then we get to their peace cycle. And sometimes, you know, because I was trained in marriage. Strong. I know it's. What's the name now? Relate. Strong. I was trained in that. I have the word. Word. The list of pain words and coping actions. And I have that. The piece words and the, the truths. I'm sorry, the truths and the new actions. Sometimes I'll use those, but I try not to. If I can. If the person just really gets hung up and says, you know what? I just can't. Yeah, just can't say. Well, here, let me help you out. Let me show you a list of words. Any of these relate to you and what you're feeling or what you do? Usually, like you said, the pain cycle is easy, but the peace cycle may be a little harder. But usually not once you've gone through those three exercises, the reparenting, usually it's pretty Easy to come. You know, my struggle is keeping them to three or four. And we talked about that is, you know, because they want to do too many. And Lance and I, in our. In our RT consultation meetings, I brought that up on say, what do you guys do? Because I was giving them four or five or six, you know, that whatever they come up with. But we kind of limit it to three or four, you know, so they can really get their head around it.

Three or four truths that they.

Four pain words, the big ones. I'll say. Now, can you limit it to the. To the biggest ones? Which ones are the biggest ones out of all of these? Oh, yeah. Well, it's this one, this one, and this one. Okay, good. Let's go with those, you know, and, And. And that's what we'll do.

And I think I was watching Lance. No, just not his head, I think. Lance, you really like the reparenting, the three targets as well, don't you see, in your work?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I kind of use all of them. Like, I have, like, all these little nuance plays with. With a lot of the. The truth interventions that I'll do. But yeah, you know, reparenting such a. It's so effective, right? And it's so powerful when you have the empty chair in front of the person and they're speaking into it, and, you know, you're up there, you're having them interact with the chair and, you know, that. That powerful moment of, like, speaking the truth over themselves or to another child or even that powerful moment when you actually get them to finally stand up and say, now. I want you to say it to yourself now. It's such a beautiful. I mean, it's. It's so touching, you know, like, to. To. To slow it down and have them find those moments of peace. And it's like. I mean, if we're talking integration, it's like, you know, you're watching them overcome the evil one, right? It's like, I'm not falling for these lies, these schemes of. Of the enemy anymore. I am. I am going to lean full into the truth. You know, think about, you know, like, Christ when he's, like, getting tempted, you know, like all the ways he's got. He's got the scripture ready to. To just fire. So, yeah, I'm a big fan of reparenting.

Yeah.

Sorry, Marciel, I cut you off. You were going to say one more thing before I asked Lance that question, though.

I can't remember what it was, Rhett. That's okay. But If I could piggyback off what Lance said about integrating into the pain of peace cycle. When we were at the summit, I sat with Joanne Russell.

Yeah, Russell.

Yeah. And she said the thing that she loves most about restoration therapy, pain and peace cycle is that the way you can integrate scripture so beautifully to it. And you know where we use Ephesians 4, you know, 4:20 through 24, when we're talking about truth, you know, Jesus said, the truth will set you free and don't you want to be free? And, and yeah. So this is a way to get to truth. And then, you know, then we can integrate brain science into making new neural pathways. Neuroplasticity. I mean, it just all fits. And then the old self and the new self is so, it's so good, it's so, so easily, it's so easy to integrate those things into it. Yeah.

And even the characters of Scripture, like, which character in scripture do you connect with? And yeah, there's always something there.

Yeah.

Where, where does the future wiser self intervention. Would you see that as like a reparenting technique? Terry talks, you talk about the future wiser self, but you're looking forward, you know, and not backwards and stuff. And I was wondering, just asking you guys, would you consider, is that, would that fall into like a reparenting technique or.

He differentiates them. Yeah, there's like, because he calls them the three. Right. And, and like, reparenting would be like the most dangerous of them all. Right. Because you're more likely to re. Traumatize someone. The older self is, you know, like where you go, you think of yourself in the future. I like to use that one a lot. You know, once I, I, I use that sometimes in my first therapy session of like when you think you've, like when you finished, you know, six months down the road and you finish therapy, what's the big thing you're going to say about yourself? And it's, that's a soft version of it. But so the older self or the wiser self is when you go backwards in time to like that big moment.

Right.

You know, when, when you won the big award or you climbed the mountain or whatever it was when, when you, when you know, you met your, your swoopy, whatever it was that like, it's like, whoa. Yeah, everything was great. When Martial came in and, and God told him to help me, was like, oh, yeah, God sees me. I know that now. That's a, that's an older or wiser self. So, and then, and then the two screen would be your softest technique. And using the, the trying to get to the third stage. We call it. What do we call it? We call it identifying the truth. It's the second stage. I think we just call it identifying the truth and therapy.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. About re. Traumatizing clients. I was, I've been working with a client currently who has. She's had a serious trauma in her past and I wanted to do the pain and peace cycle with her, but I didn't. I couldn't take her into the, the, the painful past. So we use this, we use the split screen with the words that I think again. And so helpful. Lance. Monthly meetings that we have where someone I think talked about that. And then the split screen, you know, the picture, the, you know, picture the theater and you see the curtain and opens up. What word is there? You know? And then now let's close the curtain and come back. And what with the truth. What, what, what words come up? What do they look like? Describe the words. You know, I didn't, because that was a. I didn't want to re. Traumatize her. Yeah. And so I didn't want to take her back into pain and she didn't need that. But the split screen was helpful for her to come up with the pain and peace cycle. Truth works. Yeah.

No, I mean, I'm in this stuff every day and I can get confused and not be clear about some of the newest innovations and techniques. And so that's. And I know I'm not the alone. So people are listening to. It's good. It's good. This is why I like these dialogues because we're all doing some of this and it's helpful to understand. And one thing I just picked up from you, Martial, is like, which I don't know if it's an area of growth for me. I've never, at some point, I kind of stop taking notes in session. I mean, I take some notes, but I don't do a lot. And maybe I rely on my memory too much because at the end of each session I take a lot of notes when the client leaves. But that sounded very Terry esque where you're taking these notes and you're writing these words and you say back to the client, is this what it sounds like? Is this how you know? And, and so I like that. Is that a very. Has that always been something for you? That's been really powerful in therapy. It's just being really good at writing stuff and taking notes and tracking with.

The Client it has been. I, maybe I'm a compulsive note taker. I, I learn better when I take notes. It's not in the dsm. Yeah, yeah it is. Right here. Here's my notes from our last consultation session. You know, I, I, when I'm in church, I got a notebook, it's back over in the other room. But I, I write notes, I learn, I, I remember things better when I write. Maybe it's my years of education, years in education. But I, I, when I'm in a therapy session though, I will use keywords and things like that. But when I'm doing the pain of Peace cycle, truth, I try to, I, man, I am writing as fast as I can to try to capture everything that they're saying so that I can repeat it back to them because that helps them to remember it. And that's what I want them to do, to remember it so that they can hold on to it. Of course we have the four steps. You know, I don't want to minimize the importance of the four steps. You know, you gotta say gotta practice, practice, practice.

Right.

You know, there won't be any change if you don't practice. And the, so having written it down so they can hear it again and I say not. Is that it? And they'll yeah, that's what I said. That's right. Good. Okay. And then when we come to the pain and peace cycle. The peace cycle. And I'll review back. Okay. Now when you were eight years old you said this. And I'll summarize it. And when you were 21, you said this to yourself. Now current self, you said these. Let's draw from those some keywords that will help regulate you the next time you start to feel these painful things. And then we'll write their Pain and Peace cycle and that usually I don't want to rush that session either as far as writing out the peace cycle because I'll come to the end of a 50 minute hour and I usually go 55 minutes for sure, sometimes even 60, and we will have done it. If I'm coming up to the last target, I'll say now let's wait for the next one, I don't want to rush the last one and I want to put it together in the next session and we'll write your peace cycle, you know, and that kind of thing. And you know, it's really an amazing things. I got an email, I had a client who was going through a terrible divorce, military wife, years ago, and she came back to me once. And then she came back again. The divorce. It took like, I don't know, maybe three or four years for this divorce to be final. Four kids. She had moved from San Diego. She's back in her hometown. And out of the blue I get this email from her and she says, Dr. Falan, I just wanted to let you know how helpful our therapy was. I still say my pain and peace cycle, and now I'm enrolled in a master's degree program to become a therapist. Oh, I tell you, it was like, oh, my gosh. You know, that was just. I was just so elated to hear that basically that she's still saying her pain and peace cycle. And so. What a blessing.

Yeah. What do you. What's coming for you, Lance? What it. What are you thinking about as we're talking through this? I see your head, your. Your mind working over there.

You can see my mind working.

Scary. I know.

Yeah. I mean, I think I'm in that same place of, you know, I, you know, for me, like, my. My faith I'm coming up on, like, I can't. I convert it to the faith about. It was October 15, 1995. So I'm coming up on my 30th year of being a believer. So I'm just sitting here as. Even as we're kind of talking through these. These cases and you know, and I mean, it's just because of martials here, just have this like, major gratitude for just the, like going to your choreograph of like, man. There's been like some really cool, like, even though I didn't know it throughout my life that where there's been some awesome, like, interventions going on along the way. The holy. The holy interventions of like that. That weren't therapist directed as much, but so it's just been. This is kind of like where you see my brain going right now. It's just kind of very thankful for the people who have really been there for me along the way.

Yeah.

Even when I didn't think anybody was there.

Yeah. I. I found that it's. It's the book which may be read by Peterson. Christ plays in 10,000 places. And the Greek word is. I'm gonna chop it up here. Perry. Perry. Perry. Perichoresis. Perichoresis.

Pericheresis.

Yeah. And he. He says this. He says, imagine a folk dance around dance with three partners in each set. The music starts up and the partners holding hands, begin moving in a circle. The tempo increases. The partners move more swiftly, swinging and twirling, embracing and releasing. But there is no confusion. Every movement is clearly coordinated in precise rhythms as each person maintains his or her. His or her own identity. And then he says, we cannot live as spectators of the dance of the Trinity. A hand reaches out to pull us into the trinitarian actions of holy creation, holy salvation and holy community. There are no non participants in the Trinity revealed life.

Awesome.

That's cool. That makes me think of usness as well as you talk about. Yeah, say, say the meaning again. I love that. Use the line because I want people. I. I know everyone's going to rewind to hear it, but.

Well, I'm just reading from a section from Christ plays in 10,000 places where he says, speaking of this dance, the Trinity, this dance between Trinity says imagine a folk dance, a round dance with three partners in each set. The music starts up and the partners holding hands begin moving in a circle. The tempo increases. The partners move more swiftly, swinging and twirling, embracing and releasing. But there is no confusion. Every movement is cleanly coordinated in precise rhythms as each person maintains his or her own identity. And then he says, we cannot live as spectators of the dance of the Trinity. A hand reaches out, which I love that a hand reaches out to pull us into the trinitarian actions of holy creation, holy salvation and holy community. There are no non participants in a Trinity revealed life.

That's dang Eugene messing me up again, bro. Come on.

Your guys story and I think of my own story in rt. It's like getting pulled into that dance. I didn't intentionally go out seeking RT or seeking to get plugged in in certain ways, like things were happening beyond my control, you know, to get pulled into this life, into this dance, not only of faith, but into the dance of this community, which, which I really love. Which, you know. Anyways, I'll stop there but I just love it.

I can say amen to that too. For me, right that way that, you know, I don't even know how Jeff met. Well, probably he met the Terry, Sharon through Archibald Hart. Epit Fuller, because Terry was very close to Sharon Hart. And I mean Jeff was very close to Sharon Hart who was Archibald Hart's daughter. And. And he. Jeff was bringing her in and down and then that's how he met. Probably met Terry, I think. I don't know. Do anybody know that story? How Jeff Reinke met Lance? Do you know how he met Terry? Sure. Yeah.

It's through Sharon, I believe.

Yeah.

90. I give it a 90 we'll have to have. We need to get Jeff and Robin on here one day because they're, they're such a cool, dynamic couple.

Oh, for sure. They've been pillars in the community, for sure. For counseling, Christian counseling, church ministry and, and restoration therapy.

Yeah, yeah.

What, what is an area of.

I don't, I don't.

I would call it just interest for you right now. That's really, like, captured you, that you're like, this is something I'm really trying to learn and read up on in terms of therapy or integration. Does anything at this current moment in your life really kind of taken you?

That's a good question. Probably just becoming more, More. More good at helping people to find peace again through Christ through the tools that we have, we. That we learned in therapy. The pain of peace cycle. You know, I also trained in emdr, helping people through trauma, probably. You know, lately I. I do a lot of work with couples in recovery from betrayal. And again, what's at the heart of rt? Trust. Trust and love. You know, and it's. It's just. It's so beautiful to know that ultimate trust and love is found in God. He is always going to be trustworthy and he's always going to be loving. And so if we can get that right and really anchor ourselves in that truth, it can. Man, the sky's the limit after that. So I guess you could say it's just becoming. Trying to keep growing and learning and becoming better at what. What I. What I already know and staying diligent in the scriptures and trying to practice what I preach. Yeah. You know, not to preach, but I mean, I'm talking about applying the pain and peace cycle in my own marriage, in my own life, as it turns.

Out.

For our clients is good for us.

That's good for our personal life for sure.

No, I wrote that phrase down. I like it. You said trying to become more good at helping people find peace.

Yeah.

Instead of looking for all the new shiny tools and go this direction, it's like staying on the road of just becoming a craftsman, a craftswoman at this. At this model, and just becoming better at it.

Yeah, it really is. And that's why I like to go to the consultation meetings. I like to go to the Summit. So beautiful. And other. In fact, I went through level one training twice. I got to go through it in Texas. Dr. Eric Salwin taught it. And I asked Terry if I could have permission to go through. To go through it again. And. And I did. And so, you know, you're always just picking up different. I went through it with Terry, which was so super. And. And in 2014. 1314. And then now it was 2000, I think. Well, it was 23, I think two years ago that Dr. Salman was teaching it here in Houston. And I said, oh, man, I want to go. And I got to sit under him and. And learn it, go through it again.

So that, I mean, that's a question that's come up in some of the groups is should I go back and do RT level one again or RT Level two? And I was thinking I for myself about that because there's things that, when I took it, weren't in place yet that are new. And I. I too, got trained and relate strong back in the day when it was something else married strong. But they've developed it so far down the road that. I mean, what do you think, Lance? You're actually leading training now. Do you see that as beneficial and something that would. Would be helpful to people? Absolutely.

I mean, I think anything we can do. I feel like with the more I stay connected to the work of therapy and what we're doing, like, the better I am as a therapist. So finding those different places, even I feel like listening to the podcast is helpful. But level one's great. You know, this level two that we're doing, I think Stephanie has one more slot left, and then I have a level two coming up pretty here. Here pretty soon too, in December.

I would.

I would really recommend people, you know, that if you. If you're level one trained, you know, go for it. If you haven't done level one yet, go to level one. There's so many. There's so much stuff to glean in the trainings. And then, you know, if you've done level two, do con consultation. You know, if Terry has space for. For you to like, hang out with him. I mean, I did that with Terry for probably about eight years, and I still connect with him regularly. But like, we would as a whole team, we would connect with Terry. Our whole practice would. And we would just break down cases once a month. So I think just the more that we can stay like, the thing that keeps me honest is talking through cases with everybody and hearing how other people are applying it, because there's so much to glean as we do the dance that parake. I love that holy pericaresis. Perry Caresis like that. That holy name. The holies there at the end there is like holy communion, holy.

Holy salvation, Holy community, Holy creation.

All three of those in.

In.

In Trandom.

Oh, I like that.

Well, and I.

What do you do, bro?

The road. The road of a therapist can be really lonely. And there were. There was long seasons where I was just in my office doing therapy and I was connected to the RT community, but not giving and not in deep and intending things. And I know Martial is a part of the rt. One that Steven Perez does on. Is it Tuesdays? Yeah.

Third Thursday.

Yeah. And then he's a part of our community on the email list for the Texas group, which is less of a consultation group. And right now we're just trying to connect therapists. And there are so many therapists who, you know, they're just. We're on our own island often and we. It's hard to become better at something when you're on your own and. And when you're in community and being challenged in some really healthy ways and learning things. It's just helped me this last couple years. And, you know, hearing the stuff that you guys are doing, like, even Marciel talking about the three targets of reparenting and stuff, I'm like, oh, yeah, I. I gotta remember. I gotta remember. I gotta remember some of these little things that sometimes I'll forget and get sloppy. Get sloppy with in my own practice.

Yeah, we'll go shorthand.

And even now hearing Lance talk about, you know, get up and talk to the empty chair and doing that.

Yeah.

For me, you know, that. That was a good reminder. Lance. I. I don't do as much of the movement stuff, although I know that's so important. I do all telehealth now. Okay. So I'm not in an office and. But I recently, because of the importance of movement, I had a client get up and walk across the room saying your pain cycle. Walk the other way and say your peace cycle and do that. And he did that like three or four times. Say it out loud three or four times. Walk back and forth. Because it is so important to get him up and moving. And I know Stephen Perez and Lance, you guys are masters at that and as are others, I'm sure, too.

One of my favorite things to do with online therapy is I love to send them on a treasure hunt. Like, if we're doing truth work, like if, say we're reparenting. Right. And I know one of their mentors who spoke the word of God. Or like, that was. That was. I'll say, okay, you just said that truth of you being loved. Like, can you tell me a person that did that for you? And could you look around? You're in your house right now, aren't you?

Let's.

Let's I'm gonna let you get up real quick. I want you to run around your house and find that object or that thing. Maybe it's a picture of them and I want you to take it and let's do work with that picture.

Right.

And, and I'll have them do their four steps with that picture in their hand. And I'm telling you now that therapy that you just did with them is going to last so much longer because they now every time they look at that picture in their house, they're going to be like, I'm loved. It's going to be okay, man. I've come so far, you know, I can keep going, you know, like these things like that. You know, I think I love doing the treasure hunt. I think that's so much fun with clients for true stuff.

Oh, that's cool.

Yeah, yeah. I'm taking notes over here.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, and this will be for another podcast but, and maybe have Sharon on. But there, you know, as we move more online with a lot of therapy, there's, there's certain things that are helpful to do an online therapy and some things that are not. And I think we're all trying to figure that out, you know, and I never would have thought about sending them on a treasure hunt in their own house while I'm on video, you know. And so. Any books you're really into right now or anything you're reading that's just capturing your imagination.

Well, the. In the la. You know, every year I try to get some good books to read. And then this fact in this past year, I think it was this year I really loved Dr. Henry Cloud's why I believe. I think it is, it's his testimony, but it also incorporates, you know, it's his journey into faith and then into, into therapy and how it's, how it's okay. His journey. Because when he first, you know, when he, he got healed out of depression and that's what led him to become a therapist, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly. And then, but then he said the very church that I. And then he became, first he became a Christian that saved him out of depression. Then he got therapy and then he was so excited about therapy. But then he said the very God that I love and the church that I love that's helped me so much is opposed to therapy. And, and, and he went through a two year, you know, battle and he came out saying, hey, we can do this. This is consistent with scripture. And that was one of my My favorite, favorite books that I've read recently. The. I'm trying to think, oh, oh, yeah, okay, the Fix. I, I did this. More on audio. There's two books on recovery because I'm really, I'm really big into recovery. 12 steps in that. One of them that came out by John Ortberg was called the Steps. I think it's called the Steps. And John Orberg is kind of heady, you know, but then Ian Cron, the Enneagram guy, he came out, he came out with a book called the Fix. And it's also a 12 step book. And, and I, and I read it, I listened to them together and it was so cool to kind of compare and listen to Ortberg, John Ortberg, you know, and, and I don't know his background, if he had any struggles with addiction. I, I tried to look into that. Say, where's he doing writing about 12 steps, you know, but all from a Christian perspective. And then Ian Cron, yeah, he, he definitely did fall into addiction. He tells about that. Here he is, this, this, you know, high rolling speaking circuit guy. He got addicted. I think it was painkillers or pills, something and alcohol. But his, his book the Fix is so good. And, and these two books I, I've really, really loved and I've been recommending them to clients who are dealing with 12 steps and that.

So it reminds me of. I, I really like Richard Ror's book, you know, Breathing Underwater. The, okay, the, the 12 steps too. And it's, you know, I've, I've done, I've gone through an. My own. Like there's a ministry called Re Regen or Reg Generation. And I did it a few years. You did a few years ago. Walked through the 12 step model. And you know, I was obviously really familiar with the model. And I've. Even as. When I was at Fuller Seminary, as part of our classwork, we went to some AA meetings and different things. But to, to actually be in the 12 steps for more than a year and I thought about the power of how that transforms your mind and moves you into truth and moves you into practice. It's, it's hard to find in other places they do. I mean, there's a reason why it's been around forever.

That's right.

Such a good model.

It is.

Yeah.

What are you reading now, Rhett?

You know, I, I started like a little book club with some guys from my church and we go through like a book every six weeks. And right now we're reading the biography On Dallas Willard called Becoming Dallas Willard. I think it's called Becoming Dallas Willard. And it's a really, you know, if you're familiar with Dallas word in his, in his. In his work and his books. Used to be a professor at usc. And when I was a college pastor at Bel Air Presbyterian Church, one of my college kids brought him over one night to our college group to speak. And here's Dr. Willard shows up in a suit, you know, all pressed and all these college kids. And I never saw someone get up on stage and just captivate college kids more with his just love of. Love of God's word and, and, and teaching and philosophy and stuff. It was really empowering. And so I'm reading that book right now. Highly recommend it. Becoming. Becoming Dallas Willard.

Wow, that's so cool. You got to have him come. We did. When I was in the prison ministry, I had my staff read one. One spiritual book and one professional book. And we got. We read his book on prayer. I forget the name of it, but Dallas had written one on prayer. And we. I called him up and says, hey, would you be willing to dialogue with my staff and, and do some Q and A with us around this? And he, of course, consented. And, and, and so we had him on speakerphone and we interacted with him. So Rich. Such a blessing. This was. This was back in the early 90s that we did this.

Well, you know, he, he basically mentored John Ortberg, too.

I wonder.

Many years. And then John Ortberg mentored John. John. John Mark Comer, who. You know, his book Practicing the Way Right now is. Is really popular and just that. That tradition of mentoring and developing things, which made me think a lot about RT and about the investment that people like Terry, obviously, and Sharon and other people in the community have mentored. YouTube, you know, mentoring each other. Yeah. And. And continuing to. That. That's how this model grows over time, is to develop deep roots and just to do good work, as you say. Because if we don't do good work, it's not going to matter what kind of model we have.

It doesn't matter.

At all.

Yeah. At all.

Yeah. And, you know, along those lines, I like to tell people that I do therapy with the heart of a pastor. And, and you know what the old thing is, people don't know how much they don't care how much, you know, until they know how much you care. And it comes back to that, to me, is that, do I really care about my people? I. I believe this is my little flock. You Know, I mean, my caseload is my little flock, and God has entrusted them to me and kind of really, I love the way Solomon, when he was, when he was beginning his kingship over Israel after his dad had died, how he prays. You know, God says, you can have anything you want. What do you want? And he says, lord, I want to pray. He prayed, give me wisdom, give me understanding that I may rule these. Who am I that I should rule these people of yours? I don't even know my left from my right. I'm a little child. I don't think he was really a kid at that, a child at that time. He's probably in his mid-30s, maybe 40s. But he, he asked the Lord, and, and I, I, I looked up that word understanding heart, and it's literally a hearing heart, that I may have a hearing heart. And so I pray that, you know, oftentimes as I'm going into therapy before session or even in a session, God give me a hearing heart that I may be able to help these people that I'm going to meet with today. And, and, you know, that's something I, I really treasure is my devotion time with God is. I pray in the morning for each of my clients, and I pray other times, too. But my, I go through my, my appointment list. You know, I prayed for our meeting this morning. I prayed for the, you know, I got four clients this afternoon I'm going to be meeting with. I prayed for each one.

Yeah.

And then I also crucial. Yeah, I also have a list that I call my special focus People. People who are really going through tough times. They're in a divorce or they're in recovery from addiction or they're adultery, man, I like to pray for those people every day, you know, on that. So really very important part, I think of doing good work, in my opinion.

Man.

Yeah.

What a gift today. Marciel, I'm so glad you joined us. I, I just, I, you know, I'm so glad you had listening prayer. And in your listening prayer, it said, help Lance. Well, I did not need it. And I am, I, as you're talking, I'm like, I pray over my client load, like, regularly every day too. Like where I'm, I have like, little markers, I do a little walk or like when I'm like, all around town where I just remind myself to pray over my people and. But I am so thankful for you Martial and the way that you, you truly do care for your people and you care for everybody you interact with. And because of that, I'm a better man and I hope everybody that gets to gets gets to interact with you knows that about I doubt it's hidden much but you're a blessing to all of us now.

Praise the Lord. Lance, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you for inviting me and thank you for for building in and important into my life and and Rhett you guys I I hope you're planning another summit soon and yeah.

2027.

2027. Yeah cool. Look forward to that and just keep on doing the great things you're doing. Appreciate you both.

It's gonna be it's gonna be a great a great future here for rt. We're looking forward to a lot of things and we'll put all the show notes or we'll put all the information the show notes all the things that we've referenced and any links to any things and yeah again good to see you all. Hope you have a great day. Thanks for tuning in.

Cheers. Thank you. God bless guys.