Season 1 | Episode 38 | Special Guest, RO Smith -- Questions about Learning RT

Lance, what's up?

What's up, Rhett? How are you, man?

I'm good. We have a good morning ahead of us today, dude.

The. I think when it comes, before you.

Introduce me, you guys start the podcast the exact same way, which is great. It's just hilarious. You're like, lance, what's up, Red? You know, Anyway, so sorry.

Well, that's how we started off. You're. You're the. You're the maestro.

That's how you. I don't. I mean, that's. It's just funny. I. That's what made me giggle, because just now I'm like, I'm sitting on your podcast and you're starting at the exact same way I love.

Well, if this takes on too much of a professional sound, then I think Lance and I have gone the wrong direction.

We're the. The. The what has flown. The I don't know, we're not in.

The right place chicken has flown the coop.

No, we do this because we enjoy it. We love talking our tea, and I just kind of picture myself sitting around a coffee shop with you just chatting away. So that's how we want to do it.

Guys. Today I have my Field Dreams mug. This is Field of Dreams. Have you guys heard the story of going to the Field of Dreams with Terry?

Well, go ahead and share that and then we'll introduce our guests because that's a cool looking mug.

I'm gonna leave people in suspense because I'd rather hear about our guest.

Okay.

There'll probably be a good moment to talk about the Field of Dreams.

Usually. You got the Amarillo mug from the RT Summit this morning. I. At home, I was drinking out of someone in Spokane loves me mug, which, you know, my daughter lives in Spokane now, so that's what I was doing today. All right. I've known this guy since 2002, I think.

Four. Four. Four. Is it four?

No way. Really?

Because I started at Fuller in 2002 and then started at Bel Air 2004.

Okay? So when I was the college pastor at Bel Air Prez, this guy and his wife Mindy, who were both at Fuller Seminary, both Fuller, so many grads came on to staff in the. Was it junior high department at the time? Originally, yeah.

So originally I came on as like a seventh grade lead, okay. Under Lars Rude.

So this guy, Ro Smith and I have spent a lot of time together in ministry, talking theology, hanging out, doing life, running, all kinds of things. And he is, I'm going to call him, a new baptized convert to the field of rt.

Hallelujah. Welcome to the. Welcome to the group.

He's gone deep in. If any of you know what that's like, listening, where you just kind of go deep in. And so he's been texting me and like, dude, I have all these questions for you. And I'm like, well, you know what? Come on the podcast and let's. Let's talk through questions. Because sometimes when you've been in a while, you're just not seeing things maybe that are important or you've been going a certain direction, and it's important to look up and maybe look at some of the pivots RT has taken over the years. There's some things happening in training that are different from when I was trained by Terry in 2014 and when I was first introduced to the model at the Hideaway in 2010. So it's been a while. So, Aro, welcome to the podcast. We are excited to answer questions and dialogue with you today.

Well, thanks for having me. I. When you were saying that it's. It feels like coffee, I was like, hearkening back to every Tuesday, the. The rock band, the church rock band would go to Starbucks. We. We weren't a rock band, but we would always say, I wonder if people think we're, like, famous, like, we're a rock band. Because, you know, Rhett and his. He was, you know, he's the gorgeous front man, you know, and I'm so gorgeous. I'm the guitar player. And then we had Drew Sams, who was, you know, over there playing bass. Whoa. Rachel, you know, as the. Rachel, you know, as the backup singer. You know, we had also. We had. We were just, like, laughing. And then we actually had TJ Stafford join us occasionally. And he was actually.

Well, the context is important, too, because the Starbucks we were. It was up off Beverly Glen, which is next to that famous diner called. I'm blanking at the moment, but if you went in that diner any time of day, you would see the who's who of Hollywood just sitting in a booth next to you, and it was crazy. And so you're always looking around up there wondering, I wonder if that person's famous. So was that.

Was that the one Larry King visited often or. No.

Anyway, we were not famous. And Ro also, I should say, Lance, he is gracious enough to take our podcast, and he has been cleaning it up for us on the back end, bringing you the little bumper music, the little video, and editing anything that we need edited. So thanks, Rock.

So if you don't like It. I'm sorry. That's. You know, that's what I. That's the best I can do. So.

And I do appreciate Aro is giving me a little bit more deepness in my voice. And we. We are still pretty raw. Like, we want to, like, pretty keep this raw. So, like, we're like. But he. He's at least making it so it's like, you can hear it. It's audible.

That was the key. Because I. As. As Rhett said, I'm a runner. And so I'd be up at like, 4:30 in the morning to go run. And I'm running even. You know, no one else is out there, but I'm running. And there'd be times when I'd be like, I put my. My phone right here because I don't listen to the earbuds I had. I just have my phone here because no one else is around. So I'll. When Rhett talks, I have it down. And when Lance would talk, I'd turn it up and then turn it, and I'll just be like, oh, that's driving me crazy. And one Sunday, one time, I was just like, that's it. I think I can help them. So I was like, can I help you guys? And they were like, sure, please. I just wanted to get the. I was trying. I'm just trying to go for the evenness across the board if I can.

Everyone out there is like, thank God that Aro stepped in to help these two guys.

Yeah.

Either that or they're like, dude, get that guy out of here. Get someone that knows what he's doing.

So I just feel honored that you wanted to turn me up. I mean, I think that.

Yes, yes.

That's the. That's the part I'm hearing.

Well, I'm a worship leader here, and I'm always. They're always like, can you turn Aro down? I'm like, no. That's part of my master plan to take over the world. I need more of me. So, anyway.

All right.

What are we doing? All right, so, questions? Okay, so I guess the first question. I want to talk about the pain cycle. Right. So whenever I would. So for a long time, I was. I was wondering, what are the four steps? I think I got the pain and pee cycle, but what were the four steps? And I think I got that figured out. Rhett gave me this recommendation, the Five Days to a New Self. So.

Good choice.

I went on a retreat in June. I read that. But I think the big thing that I keep coming back to on the pain cycle is, you know, I've heard Terry say, and you guys say your pain cycles, your pain cycles, your pain cycle. But can it be different in different like contexts or situations? Because I feel like, you know, just like your personality test or how you deal with like conflict management is different and different like how I deal with conflict management with my mother in law is different. How I deal with my wife, which was different. How I would deal with it with like kids in youth group once upon a time. But I feel like sometimes I find myself in the pain cycle or at least in coping. I'm kind of like, man, I'm angry, but it's not because of things my dad did to me or my mom did to me growing up. I feel like I'm just mad because I got a six year old who's talking back. So I just feel like the pain site, I'm just wondering, I guess more understanding of the pain cycle and why does it feel like it's changing or is it, it's not changing. How do I, you know, delve into understanding where my frustration with my 6 year old is versus like, you know, something from my childhood? Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. Lance, you take that, you start. Thanks.

The doctor.

Okay, so we are looking, when we're looking at the pain cycle, the thing that we're looking at is this part of our body. It's like we're looking at the brain stem and the midbrain. Okay. So this is like very like subcortical type stuff that's going on there. Okay. And when we talk subcortical, we actually don't have words for this section of our bodies.

Right.

So when it comes to feels and all this other stuff that goes on within us, what's happening in those moments, there's, it's, it's in a non verbal part of our brains. Okay. So number one, I would say like this is why like sometimes when I'm doing people's pain cycles, I like to understand where they feel it, how they feel it. Because sometimes that can actually be like more telling for a person.

You mean physically where they feel it?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They'll be like, oh yeah, my, I ball my fist up or I feel it in my chest. Oh yeah, my test, my, my chest gets really tight or my head start to spin. So I get all these different types of answers for where they feel it. And so I, I'll, I'll lean into that question of how they answer that and then I'll try and derive more verbiage off of that because that's, that, that's a little bit more connected. So when you're asking those questions about trying to understand safety and identity questions. Um, so that, that's where I'd start with the feels.

Right.

That's, that's where those come from. Okay. And then, and then in our brains we have this part called the amygdala or limbic system. And our limbic system is the response system. Right. And you know, I would say like our response system generally does the exact same thing. Like when it encounters something, you know, it's either going to jump into the fray or jump out of the fray. How it jumps in or how it jumps out might be a little bit different based on circumstances. But what I have found is that in general it would be a, like more, more in that, in that zone of it. It's either that fight or flight. I have been curious. This is my own ponderings as I speak now.

Nice.

With Terry's usness idea. And I think about when the two become one and I think about this idea around like family and things like that, like why we act, why we can be so cruel to our spouses and not to anybody else or to our children. And I've often looked at this from this, from this lens of when the two become one. Right. I, I, I, I find that like if you're a really big shamer. Right. Type person, I, I'm always curious around like that shame that you beat yourself up with now that your spouse and you are one or your family is representative of you is like you might have a little bit more anger. That anger that gets expressed is kind of like that same anger that you beat yourself up with. It's just put a, you just put a microphone to it. But that's my own curiosity. I don't have like a, I don't know how the authorities would speak on that. But that, that's, that's part of my curiosity. So I, because I do notice around like family we do different things. What about do you think? Like, I feel like at work, like sometimes we have to respond in a certain way. So we kind of curtailed to our work environment. So we have this pre program responses that we're trained to do. Like you know, you don't say curse words or you know, I don't know. I'm thinking of all these things that like you should, you should have be dressed properly. It'd be weird if you showed up to work with like bell bottoms on. I don't know. RHETT wears bell bottoms a lot.

Yeah.

How do you think.

I. Yeah, I. I mean, I think the pain is. The pain is the pain. It just takes on different nuances and forms over the years and kind of shows up in. In new outfits and disguises and can, you know. How do I want to say it? Eloquently. I don't know if I can. I think at the core, when I'm working with people, even though we might be talking about work or home life or family of origin or some other relationship, there's some different language being used. But when you, like, funnel it down to the core essence of their pain, it almost is always the same around one or two things, if that makes sense. And sometimes I'll even draw like just a funnel up on my whiteboard in my office and put the top what they're saying. And then we'll just go layer by layer by layer until we're kind of at what the core is for them, which can take a while. And when you get to the core, they'll be able to say, yeah, that existed here and here and here and here and here. And so it takes a lot of work, I think, to. Because people want to have a million different. They want to circle the whole list of words and everything. And I think we want to pretend that we're not the same in different settings. And I think that's true. We show up in different ways in different settings. But I think at the core there's a deep pain that kind of crosses all barriers. And I don't think people like that. I think we want to think we're more evolved than that, that I'm not doing the same thing when I was a kid, or I'm not carrying around those same wounds, or I'm not carrying the same thing around from an earlier relationship or a first marriage or, you know, and so it's hard to look at that and to say, yeah, this is a deep pain for me.

When you. Okay, so when you think about your pain and like the kind of. If you, when you dig down deep, is there, like, do you try to get to the very first place that you've felt that or, you know, because I have maybe deep pain from a sixth grade girlfriend or, you know, that's different from my, you know, pain from my sister or my dad or my mom or a coach, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, is there, Is there a. Are you trying to get to the very first place that they can remember feeling that violation of love and trust?

I think so, okay, I mean, I think I, I don't know if necessarily have to find the exact genesis of it, but I think I want to get back to some earlier examples of it. And I think the challenge for us is, you know, I mean, I'm 50 right now and it's easy when we're older to put lenses on and go, oh well, who cares that when I was in fourth grade I walked into this classroom and people made fun of me. Big deal. I was only nine years old. How is that impact? You know? But for that nine year old, that leaves a huge impact on their brain and their body and their sense of safety and their sense of identity that they, that starts to shape who they are as they move through the world, you know, and so there's this journey from 9 to 50 and I think we're easy to minimize and our own pain as we get older and be like, what's the big deal? But I think if I can get a person into that moment and I think Lance would say, I mean he can say here in a second. But a lot of the re parenting techniques are really helpful. I mean, my biggest shift in therapy ever was a therapist here in Dallas who's trained under like Fritz pearls and stuff, who's very experiential, did a reparenting exercise of essentially me walking into my fifth grade class two weeks after my mom died. It was the first time I walked back into that classroom and he had me sit down and that's the day I started to stutter actually in class. And I never had any healing, made any progress in therapy up until that point. Until he took me back to that fifth grade moment and that was enough to like propel me forward. Now there might have been earlier stuff too, and I think there was, but man, 11 years old, him taking me back to that classroom was like significant. And I don't think if he didn't do that, I don't know if I'd be where I am, honestly.

God bless that man.

I know. Rick Carson.

Shout out Rick Carson in the house. Thanks for the Rick tricks to help RT or Rhett be.

I don't know.

I, I'm. Yeah, I, I would agree. I think when we pay attention to our language and, and how we talk about things, I, I remember I was talking with a buddy of mine. I like about how I experience my pain. So I like to ask people, what's it like for you? Right. And I found this out for myself really quickly. I'd be like, I feel like I'm being Pissed on, right? Like, like this vulgar, like activity that someone would do. And I had a friend of mine asked me, he's like, that's weird, like to say that you've been pissed on. And I'm like, well, I actually have been. And I'm like, oh, that's. That. That's how humiliated I feel in those moments. Because it actually ties back to my own pain. Another, another pain story I've used. When I was struggling, I was like, I feel like I'm sitting my. Sitting the bench. Like I have all this talent and ability and things that I can do and, and I just like feel like I'm not able to like, engage. And I had a buddy ask me, he's like, sit the bench. That's an interesting word. Where'd you learn that? Like. Oh, yeah, actually in high school I had this like, really horrible coach that made me sit the bench for most a year because I decided to do theater and, and soccer at the same time. And like, I never, I never got to like show my glory until the next year. And it was miserable sitting the bench. I had so much to offer guys.

H.

Oh man. Yeah, it's really sad.

I mean, what do you think? Ro?

Yeah, well, I'm sitting here like, well, because. Well, because when I was working through the pain and peace cycle, I was like trying to figure out like, what exactly is there a story I should focus on or a time that I should focus on, you know, and one of it when I was on this retreat, I was look, reading the reparenting section and it was kind of. I had one of those like weird moments where I'm like, well, I don't have anybody here, so I'm just gonna pretend like I'm, you know, talking to 10 year old me, you know. And so it was like playing basketball. I was always so I was always like ahead of the game as far as like hand eye coordination with your, you know, with other kids in my age and you know, you know, because sometimes when they first start, you're a little slower, but I could just pick up things quicker. And then, you know, eventually, you know, people caught up to me or whatever. But I was so. I was always all that to say humble brag, but I was always saying like, I was always like the, the best player on the team. Like in fourth grade I was like the best player on our team and we were undefeated and I don't even remember it was Norman Optimus basketball. So that's all I know. And it was like part of the Norman Optimus basketball league. And I remembered we were in the finals and we played this, this other team, it was double elimination and they beat us both times, right? And I remember like, like starting to kind of cry and I remember like crying and I, I just remember my dad saying like, don't cry. There's no need to cry. You know what I'm saying? And so I just rem. I just remembered that because I feel like I say that all the time to my kids. Like, you know, they have a. They scrape their knee, like they fall over on their bike and you're like, oh, don't. You don't need to cry. It's okay, you're fine. You know, your body's working, it's fine. You know, I just go quickly to the past. The. They. They just feel, you know, even if it's not physically hurt, the surprise of falling off their bike or the, you know, the surprise of hitting the concrete or the, you know, that initial, like what did I. What just happened? You know, the chaos a little bit in their mind. I, I try to quickly move past that. And so anyway, I was. I caught myself re parenting myself on this retreat and like giving like, what would I want to say to, you know, 10 year old Ro? And you know, so that was just kind of a, that was kind of a cool moment of just like the. That's one of the things I really appreciate about RT and what you guys talk about is trying to come up with experiential.

Yeah.

Times in your practice so that people can not just be like, oh yeah. I remember when I was, you know, crying, my dad said not to do it, but it's like, okay, let's reenact that. What would you want it. I'm going to be you crying now. What would you. How would you wanted your dad to respond? You know, And I'm like, ooh, that's a. That adds a layer of power that I, that I'm drawn to. I guess when I hear you guys talk about it, you know, and just like your story, Rhett, when I, when you've told me your story, even before I knew it was like in the RT world, I was like, dang, dude, that's a. That's a powerful story, you know, and how it's changed you.

And something that Terry, I think has really helped me with, not just me, but our community, is this, this reparenting. It's not just saying nice words, looking in the mirror. It's not like we joke about this Saturday Night Live skit with what's his name? Jack Handy.

Jack Handy. I'm smart enough.

It's. What's the guy's name? Jack Candy is the quotes. It's a quote by Jack Andy.

I can see his face. Al Franken.

Yeah.

He says I'm smart enough, I'm good looking enough and dodge on people. Right. But it's. What we're doing is we're taking an empowered position, an empowered stance in our life to, to we're choosing to show up in a different way to ourselves. And that's been really helpful for me instead of it's not, I'm just not just talking nice things and hoping it magically appears. I'm literally choosing to take this new position and to operate out of this new position, to practice out of this new position, to take new actions out of this position. And I like that. And that's been helpful for me because recognizing your pain is fairly easy. I guess we could always plummet the depth deeper and deeper. But getting into your truth is very difficult, I think for a lot of people. And that's, I think a lot of the feedback and a lot of that's where the resistance and therapy for me comes as we move towards that truth work, helping people move into that is as where it gets more challenging.

Yeah. So, and then going back to your question too, like, do we have to go to the origin story? Is your question, right?

Yeah.

Right. I would say it's preference. Okay. Because I can go to the origin story right. Of where it happened in my own life or I could just go to the last time I experienced it. And the, the truth is the truth is the truth. Right. It's going to hit me like in that old spot, there's like this huge wound that like I can access really easily. But even the, the most recent time there's, there's a bit of a wound that's still crying to be healed. So. And the fortunate thing is the truth is that healing balm that hits the same either way. So I like if you're really struggling, I, I find that sometimes clients or therapists will struggle to find that origin story and they're like, oh man, I just can't find it. I can't find it. Like you don't have to find it. Like you just go to the last time they experienced it and you can do really good work right there too.

So that's true that if your pain is your pain is your pain and. Yeah, yeah, right.

I, yeah, I totally believe that. I think sometimes probably because I sit in a Chair all day doing therapy. I'm just naturally curious. And so I'm always wanting to go deeper and deeper and deeper. And I've noticed over the years working with rt, I've been able to get deeper and understand at a deeper level. But absolutely, when a person shows up in my office, I want to understand, like, what brought them in today, like, why. Why they choose to show up today. I don't start with, hey, now, tell me the next four hours about your history growing up. I start with today. And the pain cycle leads me, I think, to the right directions and helps me ask the right questions and move in the right stories.

So how quickly do you guys come up with a client's pain cycle? Like, I meet with you, how many after. How many meetings will you have? Will we have gotten to the pain cycle? Will you do it in the first meeting? Will it be the fourth meeting? Is it the tenth? What's your, I guess, goal with clients? Or does it. Is it based on how much the client shares? I guess.

Rhett, you can go first on this one. I'm curious.

I. I mean, I. I have this whiteboard in my office, and I like to be pretty active in session. So that first session, like, we're talking, engaging, and I'm writing up feeling words and coping behaviors, and I have a. That makes the person feel really understood in that first session that there's some semblance of like, oh, okay. So in that first session, I'm kind of already thinking based on what they're showing me and saying that I have some. I have some working knowledge. I don't know for sure, but I try in the first two to three sessions to have a good pain cycle up for a client. And I give them stuff to do after they leave that first session. Even I have homework I send them home with, and we'll process it in the second session and stuff. But I mean, to be honest with you, depending on situations, there are times I struggle to get a full working pain and peace cycle up in the time that I would like to do. That's helpful, you know, so I don't know. First couple of sessions I try. I think I've heard Sharon, and Sharon can correct me on here. I mean, I've heard different times before. Like, her talk about getting, you know, full pain and peace cycle up in, like, six or seven sessions. Have you heard something like that before Session, before alliance?

That is the. That is the prescribed. What we're told to do that within. Within six sessions. Terry talks about. He's like, Yeah, I can look at someone within, like, 10 minutes and tell you their pain cyc. But there is this kind of ownership of, like, building the relationship with the other and doing, like. Because you're doing the. All the tricks around, like, you know, you're organizing like, oh, you did this and that. Okay, and what were you feeling then? What was the message you were receiving about yourself? So you're doing that stuff for the first few sessions and you're. You're sourcing it and doing all that sort of thing. Now, I would say that there's different cases where you would go faster. For instance, I know Michael Cox, amazing therapist. When he works with teenagers, he'll do a pain and pee cycle in their first session.

I remember him saying that. Yeah, I remember that.

Yeah. So. So he. He's really big on, like, helping them to see that. I will sometimes do a pain cycle for a couple in the first session if they are so chaotic and, like, just going after each other and, like, you know, it's all your fault. It's all your fault. And, like. All right, I'm. I'm not putting up with this junk today.

We're.

We're. I'm gonna help you to see what's really at play and where you actually have control. So let's. Let's put this up on. On the board or on the glass in my office, and we're. We're gon of. Say, yeah, it's really fun to blame the other person because then I don't have to do any work on myself. So I find my. I find. I find myself the past few years quoting the speck, you know, you know what it says in the Bible, right? You know, for. For my Christian clients that come in, like, you just take the speck out of your. Out of your brother's eye, right? That's what you're supposed to do, you know, and they're like, no, you have to take the plank out of your own eye. Why do you keep on trying to take the spec out of your partner's eye and not deal with the plank in your own?

Let's.

Let's do some work together. Ned says, once we take the plank, we. You know, so.

And then you see the client go.

Like, I don't want to go to therapy anymore. You're supposed to tell him everything that's wrong with him. What? Can't you just call her? What? You know, like, no.

Yeah. And when you do an intensive, you know, you usually show up in the evening just to kind of gather people Together. And then the first full day, day one, Lance, us, whoever doing the intensive will have the pain cycle up fully for that couple or that person. And then day two, you'll move into the peace cycle and the four steps. And really by day three, you're practicing steps and, and getting a lot of experiential stuff. And of course, an intensive, you have all day, or not all day, but you have a lot of data work on that stuff and sit with it for hours and hours, which is really helpful. And that's one of the reasons people love intensives, is because in a matter of days you can, you can do a lot of work and a couple can leave an intensive or a person can leave an intensive man really empowered to create change.

That's amazing.

I mean, Lance, I just had your dissertation up in front of me. I was looking up a note as we guys were talking, but like, I know Doctor, Doctor, all but you. But you've written on intensives too, and stuff.

Yeah.

So I think you have a good conceptualization of like the therapy hour and shifting that into intensives and stuff and the pacing of getting up pain and peace cycles.

Yeah, yeah. Intensives are definitely way different. I find that when we're at an intensive, we enter into another world. We no longer have the hustle and the bustle of life that's getting us down and we can actually lean into our goals. What we're trying to get out of the time together we can, like. The great thing about intensive is like, everything speaks to the, to the soul. Right. So you have hospitality, you have, you know, therapists that are reaching in. You're giving these tools and helping to get practice, so you're actually developing skills for, for your clients. So. Yeah. And if you get, if you had the opportunity to do a group, it's even better because, like, it's so amazing when you are seeing your buddies, you know, your new. Your newfound friends who know all of your deep, dark secrets. I've never shared with anybody before that they. They're all part of the collective cheering on the journey of healing. So, yeah, I love, I love intensive work.

What do you, what do you think, Aro? Because you, you just finished up RT coaching training with Megan weekend. So.

Yeah.

What's your sense of what you're taking away in terms of like, mapping out people's pain cycles? And I know you just showed us earlier your own, so I know you're working on your own even.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, she's so. She was really good. Great. By the Way. So shout out Megan. Like, she, you know, just to watch her, you know, because she on Zoom. There's all of us, all these faces sitting there. And then she had a volunteer, you know, someone volunteered to kind of walk through the pain cycle and just to see how she did it. And when she talked about, I can't even remember. Structuring and sequencing and organizing. Organizing there. I was like, it starts with an O. I was like, opening. No, organizing. Yeah. I was just like, man, that's. I mean, obviously. And I'm like sitting there going, like, I don't even know where to begin. You know that. And so hence my inadequacy of my pain cycle starts hitting, but I'm like, no, no, she's been doing this for years. She's really good at it. She practices it. I'm just like, kind of, you know, this green guy kind of being like, oh, what is this? This is cool. So. But just trying to. Yeah, so just watching that happen was really cool. And I was like, she just dropped like a pain cycle in 45 minutes on this girl, you know, I'm saying, on this woman, you know, And I thought that, you know, and I know that, and I think this woman had done some previous stuff, so I. I think it was there, but I was just like, oh, it was really. It was really cool to. To see. And so that's why I was like, does that happen normally or do you. Is there pre work? That's why I was wondering how long it took you guys to get to People's Pains and Peace cycle. And it sounds like, you know, from some of the other podcasts, I'm like, it sounds like you guys do it pretty quick or some, you know, like, Terry, I can figure it out in 10 minutes or whatever.

So it's just like any profession, right? The more you do it, right, the better you get at it. Hopefully. You know, there are days I don't feel like I am, but yeah, right. Get better. You know, And I would imagine because you work in a church, you know, you've worked with youth most of your life. You. You probably even after doing RT coaching, have observed people or youth and be like, ah, I wonder if.

Oh, totally.

I see this behavior. I wonder what's going on underneath, right?

Oh, yeah, you're totally going, oh, that coping. That's so. And so. I don't want to say names, but I'm. You. You totally.

Yeah.

See it. And you're. I. I know. Like, because I've, you know, for, like myself, I've been Kind of through a person like just kind of going through some like a personal awakening a little bit. And I'm like, man, I wish I would have had this stuff 15 years ago, you know, I wish 35 year old ro would have had this stuff, you know, but when we, we talk about, you know, your clients, pain and peace cycles when, when you go to your, and when you go to your conferences and stuff, like do RT therapists have. RT therapists, therapy, you know, therapizing, if that's even a word. You guys. Or how do you, because you, you guys aren't without emotion and without pain cycles and pee cycles yourself. So how do you find that, you know? Or how do you, you know, I guess keep yourself regulated. Go. Who wants to answer that?

Do as I say, not as I do.

Well, and it's even in youth ministry. You know, I remember someone was like, what happens when you speak the words you're speaking? You don't feel like you're living out. And I'm kind of like, you know, I remember asking that to a mentor of mine too. And he was just like, you know, that's the great thing about the truth is the truth and sometimes the messenger is broken, but the truth is still, God is still in that, in the truth of it. And so that doesn't mean we can go off and just kind of live sinful lives and preach the gospel and it'll be fine. But it's, it's having grace, knowing that there's grace covering that, which I, I always appreciate it. But I, I don't know, I just think, I don't. I, I was just wondering like specifically like with you guys, how do you keep your pain and peace cycles regulated? I mean, how do you self regulate?

Yeah, I'll. I'll answer this. So in my office, I have, I wish we were in my office right now. This is my home office that I share with my wife. So that's why I have cute stuff here on the walls. Dancers. Yeah, there you go. Totally my style. But in my office I have things that remind me of the truth. So when I, when I'm sitting in my office, I have this instrument panel. My dad worked at NASA back in the day and both my grandfathers worked at NASA too. And so I, in my, on my right side, I, I can look and I see this instrument panel, right? And it reminds me when I'm in session, I need to check my instruments. I need to, I need to be aware of where I am because I, if I'm flying blind I might crash the plane.

That's cool. I didn't know you had that. That's awesome.

Yeah.

I'll send you guys a picture.

Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes. Put in the show notes.

Yeah. No, it's amazing. Like, it's got all the. It has. Like, they're actual airplane instruments.

Yeah.

And my grandfather actually, during World War II, used to repair aircraft instruments in my. So I like. I like flight. We can get in a whole story about this some other time. But I like to like, you know, so I. I will look at that. That. That instrument panel. And I'm reminded of that I need to. I need to check my instruments. Right. That's on my right side. On my left side, I have this place. I used to be a big rock climber. It's like my. My biggest joy. And there's this one climb I was trying to do a while back that I just could not get past, and it was so hard. Like, I. I would. I would get up there and, like, it had this, like, crazy overhang, and you had to put yourself out there. And it was. And. And this is in Joshua Tree. And I had fallen so many times being like, ah, you know, like, just getting so mad and frustrated. But I remember the day that we slayed the white whale, right. And I had to put a lot of practice and a lot of work into it in order to get to that place. And I had to really pay attention to myself to understand, to look, because there are these, like, little secret holds that I could not find on the wall that. That I was trying to climb. And once I found those, I was like, ah, there they are. There they are. So these are, like, little reminders for me to check my instruments and to. And what are those. What are those holds that I can really depend on? I can't find them right now. And for me, like, the truth that. That I know that always work is that I'm still called, right? I think knowing that God's still calling me, he ain't giving up yet. Knowing that he's in control, too. God's in control is so important to me. And knowing that I'm loved, usually if I lean into those three truths, that makes the biggest difference. So I'm greatly aware of my pain cycle. And I can see myself when I'm getting triggered in the pain cycle, so. Sorry, it's a long answer, but that's.

The good thing about rt, though. Like, you have these four simple steps, you know, And I. I think. I think I Can honestly say I've practiced it. I've practiced my four steps at least once every day since I left the hideaway in 2010, you know, either super intentionally or just kind of in my brain. And I've practiced it obviously more on some days, like, lots of times. And. And I think that those four steps make it really easy to start creating this habit that over. Over time becomes this, like, practice that you just kind of do. And so for me, it's just about practicing it, and I'll be able to. I'm able to practice it because RT really is a model that helps you lean into this, like, methodology in an easy way. And then the thing that is also just really important is doing this. Like, there was long seasons where I wasn't really in community around RT people. And you're around a lot of other therapists who don't practice their own work or don't practice out the same model, or you're not with therapists at all who think you're talking crazy. And so for me to be a part of the community on a regular basis, whether it's via the podcast or hopping on a phone call with somebody or being in a consult group or going to, like, the RT summit, like, it's just a good reminder for me of, like, to do the work. To do the work. Yes. You just. You just need that community. Encourage it. And if you don't have that community around you, it can be easy to let some things fall away. So find that community. Oh, there it is. The instrument panel. Lance has shown it. That's a. That's a really awesome dude.

My dad, he worked at NASA, bro. He. He, like, did a CAD design beforehand and had it had all done out and says, this is the reminder he gave me. He said, lance, set your course high, fast, and straight. And true love, dad and mom. I think this community, like. Like what you're saying about community, like, knowing that we're gathered around the saints and maintain the practice. Rhett, I think I'm so on board with you, bro. Yeah, got a dialogue, bro.

And, you know a joke earlier, the one thing you do when you learn this model is don't go home and try to identify your spouse's pain cycle for them. And I think when I went to the hideaway in 2010, it was the sit back then it was an observer role, third chair. And I came home and tried my own pain and peace cycle right after that intensive. And then what I learned early on was I just got to do my work, and it will probably even shift my marriage. And I noticed a significant shift in my marriage after nine months of me just doing my own work. And. And then eventually my wife and I went together to do, like, strong marriage stuff. The pain. So my wife knows now the pain and peace cycle. And so I guess I just was adding that as another layer, you know, now that, you know, my wife and I will use that language at home, too, which is really helpful. Yeah.

Having a spouse is so important that, like, I feel like. I totally agree. When. When your wife knows your pain cycle, man, or your spouse knows your pain cycle, it's. It's lights out.

Why is the. Okay, so the pain cycle. We could. That's like the news clicker. It's easy to. It's like, gets clicks. It's, like, easy to identify. Like, why is the peace cycle so hard to identify for people? Or do you find that it's harder for people? I think. And I think from my own experience, as I was. You know, because when you look at the words of the. You know, when you. You know, Rhett, you were saying you write all these words on the board of feelings or whatever on the pain feelings, I'm like, oh, man, I gotta cut all these down. I feel like all of those I can relate to, you know? But then when it comes to the peace cycle, it was almost kind of like it was more difficult. And I can tell you why. But I want to hear for me why it was. But I want to hear. If you find that it's difficult in your clients or even in yourself to identify peace cycles.

Go ahead, Lance. I was just, again, reading his dissertation on getting into the truth here. It was in front of me, so.

Oh, my gosh.

Let's go.

Quit it. Oh, man. So try to get over the embarrassment of you reading my dissertation.

It's good.

While doing a podcast. Come on.

I just pulled up in front because we were talking about something, and I was like, I remember Lance talking about this in his dissertation.

So I. You know, this is really interesting to me because we're talking about emotional regulation, right? So I would say, yes, it's really hard to get people out of their pain cycle into their pee cycle. However, I would also say it's really easy for people to know their peace cycles. That. Because the idea around emotional regulation is that when you're good, you're great. In fact, most of the time, you probably are good. You know, it's just when you're bad, you're really, really bad.

Right.

And so I would like first say that like, when I talk to people, like, so are you always like this? Like, are you chronically in this. In this pain cycle mess? And when they are, then it's a lot more work to get there. But I would say that for, For a lot of the population, they know what it's like to be regulated. And when you can tap into. Why do you feel regulated now? What's different? You know, sometimes you can find those, those truths on a very, like, surface level, and then you have to, like, drill down deep on them. But so that I would say the actual hard part is the transition point. Like, it's, it's that moment when you're, when you have to lean into the void. Right.

Mm.

Where you're, you're totally locked in your pain cycle. And that part of your pain cycle, your brain's on automatic pilot, so you're, you're just cranking. And what I'm doing makes perfect sense. I, I should be annihilating you right now because you deserve it. And, you know, whatever I'm. I'm just done, you know? And so I would say the hard part to me, with, with the is, is actually helping people find that transition point. And we could probably name a few. Few of those things to help you to get into it. But by and large, I feel like people, when you start speaking truth and finding truth, there. There is a craving for that inside of the human soul. Like, we long. Like, we long, long, long to know that we are loved. Right? We want to know that we are unique, that we are, you know, like, that there. There's something special that we belong. Like, that is so core to our existence that, that there's. There's this sense of, like, justice out there. Like, there's a cry for justice, even, like, really young, around fairness. We, Our souls cry out for these things. Yeah.

Yeah. I think, you know, and so going into. When you know what my own personal is, like, I, I, I, I totally hear that, Lance. And when you talk about it, I'm like, yes, you know, 1,000% when there are scriptures that are like, you are beloved. Yes, you are. And I think, like, for me, what caused this question? Because I was like, in my own experience, I think the struggle is my. Yeah, my core likes. Wants that. But it's like my core has a hard time trusting that. Yes. That's where I'm like, that's where I'm like. And so that's where I guess I'm wondering, do clients have a hard time getting into their peace cycle similar to me? Because they have a hard time trusting those words that, like, you are adequate, that you are. Like. They have. Or is it just me? Maybe it's just me and my total broken.

You're so inadequate.

Yeah, right. Right. Well. Yeah, so. Well, I definitely.

This is. And again, Terry would say, you know, if truth comes from a spiritual resource, in this case, a lot of us are talking about God. Truth comes from others, what others say about us, and then truth comes from ourself. Terry would talk about the most important truth, is that truth from self, What. What we believe about ourselves. And I used to think that was, like, blasphemous. What do you mean? That's the most important. But the. The. The point is, God could be communicating truth to us all day long. So could I. I could communicate truth to you. But if you, at the end of the day, Ro. Aren't able to take in that truth yourself and believe it, it's just not going to go anywhere, if that makes sense.

Oh, totally. And I think that's. How do you help me? I mean. Sorry. How do you help clients?

Yeah, yeah.

Trust. Trust. Yeah. Not me, guys. I'm. I got it. No, but client. You know, because I remember what, you know, I think. Sorry, Rhett. We might have. I don't know if we went to a pastor's conference that Rob Bell spoke at or I went to. I can't remember if you're there, but I remember him saying, like, there's 10,000, you know, compliments, but you'll remember. You remember the one. Like, you know, criticism or critique, you know, and that's why, you know, even in social media, you don't worry about the likes. It's who didn't like your picture that you remember. And that's, like. That's where you're offended, you know? But so what is it in us? You know, what is it in us? And then how do you get clients to trust that? You know, I guess help me. Help me be able to trust those things in myself. Yeah. Because I think, yeah, it's like, God, others I'll hear. I'll feel that or I'll sense that. But I don't know. There's something. Sometimes. Sometimes. Sometimes there's something in me that just doesn't trust that or believe that. And I wonder if maybe you felt that, too, or if you have clients feel that. And how do you. I mean, is it. Is it just. They. They have to eventually do it themselves, figure it out themselves to trust that, or is there anything that you guys can do to help Them trust that. I guess that makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think Lance and I are both. I mean, there's a lot of experiential stuff here. I think that's helpful, right. To help a client get into that moment. And I don't know, Lance, what do you think? I'm in the place, too, where I don't need a client to fully believe that truth, to go out and practice it, to try some new things on. To me, there's this, like, reinforcing pattern of like, he. He. This person may not feel adequate, but let's go out. What would an adequate person do? What might they. What does that look like in their life? And the more that they do that, they. They start to, you know. But also, at the end of the day, even if we can't do those things to. To anchor ourselves in that truth, and I just want to say this is where the practice piece is so important. It's just over and over and over, we're walking through these four steps and we're practicing it, and we're not letting go. It's like Jacob wrestling with God and not letting go until, you know.

Yeah.

Gives him a new name, a new identity, a new truth to live out of. I'm like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna not let go, and I'm gonna hold on to this truth that I want to believe. I'm gonna practice it, and I'm gonna come alongside a client and help them practice it. But, Lance, I don't know. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, to your point, Ro, Yes. You are absolutely right. There's nothing wrong with you. This is part brains and the way it's created, like.

Yeah.

What we have found is that when it comes to negativity, our brains work like Velcro. And when it comes to positivity, it's more like Teflon. Right. There. There is a ratio of seven to one, right. It takes seven positive things to get rid of 1:1. One negative thing. Yeah. My dad used to say, one asset kills a thousand attaboys. To Rob Bell's message. Ah, there goes a thousand attaboys. Or even Benjamin Franklin says, you know, it takes a lifetime to build a reputation, in a moment to lose it. So we live at high stakes. And when our. Our brains are prone to survival, that's what our brains want to do. They want to live. Right? So we are going to be more inclined to. To find that survival part, right? Like where we. Where we're going to cling on to existence and I would say, like, ruminations that. That can get us so quickly. That's why I really love the work that Rhett and Terry and Tanner and Sharon did together. Around, stop, turn, slow. Because this is. This is where we have to go to battle. You have to go to task. And when you have ruminations, like, you have to stop the. Stop them so quickly. So. So, yeah, Aro, I would definitely say you're absolutely right. There's nothing wrong with you. I mean, there's something wrong with you. But, like.

Yeah, yeah.

Like. But. But there's a. There. There. There is a way. There is a way. Right?

And.

And. And. And welcome to humanity.

Like, that's.

That would be my.

Yeah, go ahead.

Oh, go ahead. I was just gonna say, I find that when I stop and, you know, because, like, you guys talk about. Terry talked about in the book, like, meta. Oh, what did he talk about anyway? Like, this idea of, like, meta. You know, just kind of like. Anyway. But when you. At the end, I'll. I. I'll cut this out. When you talk about.

No, it's staying.

Yeah, it's staying. At the end of the day, when you kind of, like, stop and reflect, you're like, oh, I lived out a lot more of my life out of my adequacy than I give myself credit.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? I think a lot of times when, you know, you don't. When you stop and just pause from the. Your life and think back on it, you're on. On your day or your week or your month or whatever season, you kind of go, oh, no, I. I was doing more. Living more out of my adequacy than I was my inadequacy. So, you know, so when I noticed that when I. Whenever or whenever I'm in, like, a therapy session and I'm kind of talking it out, I'm like, going, oh, okay. Yeah, okay. I. I can. I can do this. You know, so that's a good thing.

To have clients reflect on, too, is they tell me a time in your life when you were operating out of this, like, sense of adequacy, this truth that you had and what you did differently. And let's reflect on that, you know, and have that as kind of this image up here to kind of hold on to. And then it's so. To me, the critical piece is not just identifying the pain, the peace. It's like, we got to put these together. And that's where the four steps come in, because we're gonna. It's about intentionally Practice practicing moving from pain to peace. It's not that you've never experienced peace before. It's not that you're never not adequate. It's about you fostering a sense of awareness of your life that when you are in pain, you have the ability to emotionally self regulate and move towards piece. And we're going to do that through the four steps. And I'm working on a writing piece right now and there's a piece I'm going to use in this writing piece. But Lance made me think of it because climbing and it's in the section, it's in the, it's in the part of the movie of Free Solo when Alex Honnold is flipping through his notebook of all his holds. Up, Up. Free.

Up.

Free Rider. Up, Up. L, L Cap, Italian. And you realize he's memorized every hold every place. I mean it's just insane. It's just. And his, his climbing partner Tommy Caldwell said, you know, he would have free sold El Cap probably nine years earlier. He just couldn't solve this one problem, you know, the, the Boulder problem. And so he just kept practicing and practicing and practicing and practicing it, you know, and I, I just watched that. There's a guy operating out of his truth who is confident, but he has years of practice under him, lots of failure, lots of success. And, and Lance is right, man. You step into that void and you just. We have the steps to get us there and we just, we, we. It's a we, we practice and exciting. Like I'm excited about when you come with this obstacle and you're like, I, I know how to get to this obstacle. I'm going to engage these four steps and it's going to help me get where I need to go personally, relationally, in my work life, friendships. I don't know, it just, you know, that's why I love this community. And I've seen people in the community actually practice four steps in front of me when they were emotionally dysregulated at different times. And it's awesome. And you'll hear people walk through it even in conversations when we're having, when we're trying to figure out stuff. And it's like, it's so cool. It's just beautiful.

Like when you bring up the MLB playoffs, all of a sudden Lance is like, that's okay. And normally this is where I'll usually. I'm just kidding. Sorry. Wow. I couldn't help it.

Got a Dodger and a Padre on the podcast here.

Oh, wow.

I know. I'm kind of in that, you know, I lived in LA for 14 years and I've lived in San Diego for nine. And I heard somebody that go, I lived in, I grew up in LA and I live in San Diego now. Can I be fans of both? And they were like, no. And I'm kind of like, well, I kind of can, you know, anyway, so I'm kind of in that. Okay. Eventually I'm going to get to where I live in San Diego longer than, you know, la. Then I'll have to be like all Padres all the time. So.

Well, anyway, we need to wrap up here in a minute because I know we got sessions to go to, but yes, Aro, we'll have to have you back on dialect because these are good questions.

Yeah, it's been fun.

And what we really need to do is have Terry and Sharon on.

Oh, I think I'd be intimidated. I would be intimidated by that, the.

Authority figures to come in and like, help answer some of these questions. But I think it's helpful for anybody who's practicing RT to like, look at things from different angles and to ask questions we have been asking. And I had someone reach out to me the other day who's a student and they're like, do you think I should wait till I graduate to do level one or should I do it right now? Why? I'm a student. I'm like, do it now while you're a student and move that into practicum. And like, like you said, I wish you could learn this stuff 15 years ago. So there, there, there's a lot to learn and it's a beautiful hands on community. We need everybody participating and everyone using their voice and everyone using their gifts and. Yeah, and we need to keep in innovating. Right, Lance, with these, with this stuff.

Trying to go somewhere, brother. Climb that mountain.

And thanks for having me on, guys. This has been fun. And let me just, I guess an encouragement to, you know, not only you guys, but like tell, you know, tell the other RT therapists out there that tell their clients to listen to this podcast. I mean, it's like, you know, I'm saying like, as someone who's not in psychology world, you know, I have a therapist or what, but I'm not like in RT world. I'm kind of new to it. It's like, as I'm listening to stuff, I'm like, oh, this is attainable, like I can get it. And as over time as you're listening to it, it's an encouragement, you know, and so and it's not just it is therapy, but it's also. There's theology to it, which I really appreciate someone like that, you know. So all that to say is that it's not just for our team. I know it's. You guys have tried to make it for other therapists. But I want to encourage, like tell your therapist to tell their clients to listen to this because it's. It's attainable, it's good, it's helpful, you know, So I love what you guys are doing. That's why I wanted to help, and not only with the volume, because I was tired of the volume. But I'm, you know, I. I believe in what you guys are doing. I think you guys are.

Thanks.

I appreciate it.

Every week or every time we have a podcast, we'll post it to our sub stack. So subscribe to the sub stack. If you have an RT Dialogue, it's also posted at the RT Dialogue YouTube channel. You can also subscribe to us on Spotify or Apple iTunes podcasts RT dialogue. And if you're listening, you want to hop on and be a guest sometime. Shoot a message to Lancer Eye and we'd love to have you on.

What's the email address we use for that?

Well, I've been using my. We do have an RT add on. We have an RT RT dialogue at R. But you know what? I think for now it's just Rhett R H e t t redsmith.com or lance all gmail.com will that. That'll work.

So that was not very reassuring. You're like what email is like. So I've been trying to email these guys for like the last year. No thing. Well, now you know why? Because they don't check it.

I actually check that email every day. But it's Restoration Therapy dialogue at Gmail. So anything. Yeah, anything you want to send there we'll get as well. Restoration Therapy dialogue at Gmail. All right, guys, Lance, go check out your air Air control air flight modules in your office and have a good day doing there therapy. And thanks for jumping on.

Guys. Thank you.

See you guys later.