Season 1 | Episode 39 | Special Guest, Dr. Miyoung Yoon Hammer -- Addressing Issues of Diversity, Cross-Cultural, & Multicultural Through the Lens of Restoration Therapy

Lance, episode 39, red.

How's it going, man?

That's for Ro. He thinks this is our.

Our signature line or what?

Yeah, it's not even signature. It's just we don't have a slick line to say so, you know, but episode 39, and we have an awesome guest on today.

Dude, I'm stoked for today.

We got to be here.

Yeah. There she is. Ms. MeYoung. Dr. MeYoung. Pardon me. We are so stoked to have you on the podcast today. And you're. You're back again. We just couldn't get enough of you.

Ah, this is so fun. Thanks for having me back.

Yeah, I feel like we ran out of time. Like, we got deep into some other stuff that I loved, and especially around the medical model. I can't even talking and talk today. The medical model you're practicing out of and deep into theological integration. And one of the things that I want to circle back to is issues around culture and diversity. And, you know, for example, you've. We in restoration therapy and the advance advances and techniques. You've written extensively in that. But we wanted to have you back and just have a conversation. So thanks for joining us.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I always enjoy a conversation about all things rt, and then particularly around culture, it really is not so much a topic as it is a lens. It's a thread that's pulled sort of like the integration or the faith piece. It's sort of a lens that. Through which I see. And I think we see our clients and our stories, our own stories and other people's stories. So this. This conversation feels like it's going to be a very intuitive one where we can just have a good, good flow. So thank you for having me.

Solid. Yeah.

Lance, is there a good jumping off point for you as we were thinking about this conversation?

Well, I liked your question in the beginning, before we started. You're like, what. How. How does RT address culture? Well, I think. I think we should start there because I think that's important, especially I think you've added some really great insights onto. For us with. With. With the section you wrote in Advances. So I would like to see start off with, like, this is why, you know, one of the cool things about RT is it addresses, you know, that part well. And I think there's probably some growing points as well. And then maybe if we have time, maybe we can get into, you know, a little integration moments because, you know, just can't get enough of that.

Yeah, well, I mean, the thing is, we. We all have culture. You know, I often hear people say, oh, I don't have culture. And the assumption there is they don't come from a minoritized group, whether it's an ethnic or racially minoritized group in the U.S. so they say, oh, I don't have culture. But we all have culture, right? So culture has beautiful aspects in. Culture gives us our patterns of thought and way of being. They're communally reinforced. They're traditions and rituals. There's practices and values and ideas that, through the vehicle of culture, get transmitted intergenerationally. So there's this beautiful aspect of what it means to belong to a culture. Who am I? What is my cultural identity? And we all have culture. It's what's the most salient aspect of our cultural identity that we sort of walk around with and represent. So for me, being a Korean American, Asian American woman, that's sort of the immediate cultural identification that not only I tend to lead with, but that the world on the outside of me tends to sort of begin in interpreting who I am. Right. So that's an interesting piece. But, you know, culture also can be about the region of the country you come from. I had students who would say, you know, I'm from Texas or I'm from the South. I don't have culture, but I am from the South. And I'm like, hang on, hold on. What does that mean? That I am from the South, I am a Southerner. You know, there's a cultural norm, sense of value, sense of identity that you're connecting with. And that's. That's culture as well. And so because culture is such a significant informant of identity, it is in this space of cultural intersections that there's also a lot of opportunity for violations of identity and safety. When we talk now about, say, minoritized identity around race or culture, I think what RT beautifully does firstly is it gives us a way. It gives us a platform to begin to talk about pain, to understand experiences of pain, but then to help situate this conversation around pain and violations that have sort of been. That have come out of a cultural or racial intersection. So there's already this place where we're already saying, we want to name this, but we're not trying to name something to eliminate it, because that's the piece about cultural identity is there's so many aspects of identity that we're not trying to eliminate. And cultural identity is one of the. But, but. But we recognize, especially in our society, that although culture doesn't always have to be the Root of the problem, it always matters. And so I think what RT does is it gives us an opportunity to map that and to be able to hold that space and say let's let, let me understand your pain. When was the first time? How, how does, how has that been a part of your cultural narrative? You know, so it's, it's perhaps adding an additional question of curiosity so that we're, we're what, what I try to do is understand pain for how the client narrates that pain, but also invite them to be curious about how might that be related to your experience as an Asian American, your experience as you know, somebody growing up in an immigrant home in a multi generational home. So it's just adding that lens. Not only that I am using to understand this pain narrative, but that I'm inviting the client to start to be curious about, to be more curious about. Just recently a client was talking about pain and then said something the effect of well, but that's cultural so that's not pain. And sort of. I think what I inferred from that comment was well that's a cultural norm. There's nothing that can be done about that. My pain is something that I need to do, but there's a way in which it was very intertwined and the task is not to then pathologize culture, but it's to embed and understand the pain narrative within the context of culture, to sort of navigate that and negotiate that with the client and to hold that both and space that I think again with RT we, we're very expert at holding the both and both the pain and the peace, both the lies and the truth. You know, what is the story that we want to put in the forefront and which one do we want to dominate and turn up the volume on? But we're always trying to hold that both hands. So I think I may have veered a bit from your initial question, but I, I've seen that RT has just given a roadmap for a lot of the curiosities and the questions that I've already been asking it. It doesn't counter it in any way.

Yeah, I think that's so great. I mean I like this idea around like the both and like that and not deny and even like, like cultural expression. Like there can still be an element of pain in that. Like, like we can't deny that there is pain within cultural dynamics which I think that's, that's part of the cultural identity part that, that you hit up in the advances book. But Yeah, I think that's. That's awesome to step into that. I think that's what I love about restoration therapy is like when we look at identity and safety. I mean, I mean, you think about culture like that. I think it folds in really nicely, whether it's the violations of identity and safety or even the beautiful parts of the good parts of love and trust being restored.

Yeah, yeah. I do think that both. And posture is really important to be able to assume when we're talking about issues around diversity. I think the polarization that is so tempting gets us entrenched in places where we're just rapid cycling in our pain. But if we're able to maintain that both. And you know, Lance, I don't know if you remember that the informed, not knowing posture. Right. Get informed. Understand when you're. When you're working with a, you know, whether it's a client who is of similar cultural background, different cultural background, you know, get information. Get some baseline understanding of some cultural norms and values and maybe some unique narratives to that group's experience in America. Get that to inform your curiosity. But don't land there. Don't stay there. Let that be your springboard to be curious about what was their particular experience, what's. What, what was their. So sort of the both and there's both. Both this general. A set of generalizable information and there's a specific unique experience in this client's life that, that we need to understand to really be able to fully not just see them, but also help them see themselves, to understand their own pain and situate these violations, these big t. Little t. Trauma moments that they may have experienced. I always say to my students, don't make race and culture an issue if it's not an issue. But always make sure you're curious about how is this a factor in play? How is this shape shifting part of the shape shifting experience for the client? Um, so it. It really is that both and. And I think that that is. That's been such an important part of. Of that conversation around diversity and is particularly cultural diversity.

Yeah, it's a good question. I was reading or so I had a friend send me a Wall Street Journal article recently and you can throw it on the piece about like how therapy is like we sometimes lean, like making issues where there are no issues and talks about it kind of. It leads into a lot of our polarization conversation we had with Terry and Sharon a while back, where sometimes we, we make it too big of a deal like, you know, by. With our own Biases coming in. And they use the word lack of. We don't have neutrality when we come in. I think it's. I think it's because we're not regulated when we come in and help our clients. But, yeah, I think that is important. Like, how do we pay attention to cultural elements in the therapy room? And, you know, I always think because I'm, you know, I'm coming from a white context, surfer guy, you know, Padres fan. It's, you know, it's. It's a tough life right now for us. But, you know, when you think about the.

There it is, there's the Dodger hat. The Dodgers have a structure violations around people's love and trust.

But I think about that, like, when do we. When do we step in?

Right.

When, How? How? And I think this is the idea around, like, I love this idea of the culture. Like, is cultural. When you. When cultural becomes pain, that's when it makes sense to come in. And how do we step in and hold a person's pain and versus Create pain where there is none?

Yeah, it does. And I would say that, first of all, are we thinking about that for ourselves?

Yeah.

How are we. How are we thoughtful, reflective about our own cultural narratives? Maybe even understanding our own pain as well as our own truths that are connected to our own cultural narratives? Like, are we, you know, I think as therapists, when you talk about, you know, entering in emotionally regulated, I think part of that emotional regulation is having done that work yourself to. To just be curious about. Oh, okay, so this is. This is the posture I usually take in therapy. These are the. This is the curiosities I tend to have even. Why does RT feel like such a fit for me? You know, what is it about my own cultural story? What is it about my own narrative? Let's, you know, we, I think, just even begin with my narrative. And how. How is. How have I really found resonance or struggle? I mean, when I. Years ago, when Terry was first training me in RT and I shadowed him for a level one training, and I remember during one of the breaks, I said, Terry, I just. Emotional self regulation. I don't know that that'll fly in a traditional, you know, Asian American or traditional Asian immigrant home. This idea of self and other being differentiated, and this wasn't even just about basic differentiation and boundaries, but the. This idea that I would have a sense of identity and trustworthiness that is not so intimately tied to the identity of my extended family or my family of origin and the threat that that can cause my sense of identity and loyalty to my family. So I'm speaking in such broad, general terms. But, you know, to be asking that question ourselves about our own cultural narratives will always equip us to be that much more curious about that piece of the story for our clients. So I would say you were asking, how do we do this? And I would say, firstly, I think we need to be exploring that for ourselves and just more generally. But even as it relates to RT and. And wrestle with that, you know, find those points of tension and have conversations, be curious about it. I think that that's such a. An important part.

Yeah, I think cultural expression is really fascinating too. Like, when it comes to, like, what does it look like? What does healing look like in this culture? Like, when it comes to restoration? And I think that's always, like, when you find healing stories and populations, there's so much things that you can, like, garner from that. For instance, I remember you guys just did a. Hopefully it's okay, I share this. I'll be corrected if not. But y' all did.

If we need to.

Yeah, we did it. Y' all did. Attorney from Anxiety with Asian American therapists.

Right.

And in that you used the Kintsugi like, like that cultural expression of like, what is broken can be put back together even. And look even more beautiful. Like, so even, like finding stories and around. That's where you're kind of holding the. Both, like the pain and. And the beauty of. Of expression. Would you. I mean, I'm kind of talking high level. Would you tell us about this experience and like, how that would even tie, like.

Yeah, yeah. You mean of the Kintsugi in particular. And I. And I know there are pronounced Sorry. Say it again.

I mispronounced it sorry.

Oh, no, that's okay. Is that what you're referring to, the.

Kintsugi exercise in general, you could do. I mean, that's a. That was a cool specific one, I'm sure. Or therapists on here would love to hear about that. But yeah, just thinking about learning cultural expression.

Yeah, I mean, I've heard a number of psychologists and therapists say, oh yeah, I do kintsugi with my clients because there's something about. And I think kintsugi is absolutely rt and I think it's absolutely theological. You know what we talked about in our last conversation about the wounds. The wounds remaining and no longer exposed to shame, but exposed in glory. Right. So in Kintsugi, you heal the broken, if you will. You repair the broken vessel, but you don't repair it by hiding the cracks, you actually. You overlay it with gold to elevate the cracks. To say, this is my brokenness. And it's not an arrogance and it's not being showy, but it's. It's opposing shame, which I think is so beautiful, that Kintsugi having an Asian tradition and origin. And in so many Asian cultures, particularly East Asian cultures, there's this. This idea of face and saving face. And what you don't do is elevate or amplify or show shame. You don't do anything to be. To stand out. So here's this art of repair where we repair it and then we actually highlight those broken pieces to say, this is actually now the beauty of the vessel are those gold lines where there were once fractures. The wounds aren't eliminated, but they show a more beautiful vessel on the other side of repair. I think that that is this theme and this idea that's translatable across cultures for any therapist of any cultural backgr. I think that when you utilize a cultural tradition or ritual that has some resonance with the client's cultural background, there's something special that does happen there. I mean, it's sort of the way in which there's an unspoken, more intimate sense of connection and relatability or sense of familiarity to that experience or to the. Yeah. To that piece that I think, you know, for. For our participants. The turn from anxiety participants. I. You know, when Megham and I did it, we were very intentional about having Asian American and some traditional Asian notes throughout the. The intensive weekend. You know, we. We brought her. We brought masks for everybody to do. Face masks. We had ramen at midnight. We had. Her sister was like this amazing. She's not a professional chef, but she might as well be. And she made. And you know, her mom handmade these dumplings that we had soup. It was like. It was the beginning of Lunar New Year. So our first meal together was a traditional Korean New Year's meal. So there was this intentionality of having these points without. Throughout the experience that would have some sense of familiarity, some points of resonance. And it just. It just helps bridge the experience and making it more, I think, making it meaningful. Now, you know, if. If. If we were not Asian American and we didn't do this in an Asian American with these Asian American notes, I think the turn from anxiety intensive retreat will still have been an amazing, meaningful experience. Yeah. But when you add some simple notes of intentionality and you could do that in the therapy room, including just asking that question, what you're. What you're doing is you're helping center a part of your client's identity that is often decentered and marginalized.

Yeah.

You know how often clients will say, oh, I didn't think about that. Or I didn't think that that would be part of the therapy conversation, or that they're. But it matters to them, and it matters to them implicitly. And sometimes they're aware of how their cultural identity matters to them explicitly. But when we bring that into the therapy room and we say we also believe this matters, that's why I'm going to be curious about this. I think that helps say to them that we see this part of your story and your identity as mattering. And this might be a place of resource and resilience. It also might be a place of pain. We can hear all of that. So I think that intentionality doesn't have to be extravagant. It could be very simple. It's about centering the conversation around areas that. That. That do matter to our clients. Yeah.

I think that's great. I love that. What's going on? You r. No, just.

I've been.

These guys were talking. I'm just kind of reflecting on a couple things that you were saying. I'll try to tie them together. But it's. It's actually. It's really. It's really helpful what you said in the beginning, which is we all have culture. I happen, at least historically, in the last, let's say, 50 years or more of. Part of. More of a dominant culture in terms of my. My faith practice, you know, the color of my skin, a lot of things, which then I start to think, maybe I don't have a culture because you hear it in terms of other. Other things. So that's helpful for me as a therapist to know. Yeah, we all have culture. We all bring culture. So also thinking a lot about when you are the minority in a culture, the experience of. On the experience and of receiving a lot of violations around one's sense of identity and safety that maybe you don't experience when you're in the majority culture. So, like, I'm reflecting on that a lot, and I was even thinking just here recently, like, my daughter who leaves Texas to go to Washington, she wanted to get out of Texas. Right. And see, like, scenery and pretty and trees and. But. But there's like, this really proud emphasis on that she's this Texan now in Washington, and people have all these questions about living in Texas and things that they think Texas is or isn't or assumptions. And I'm like, oh, she does have this cultural identity, you know. And then even I'm thinking about marriage intensives. If you were to show up during COVID or pre. Covid. The culture of the one in Amarillo and Palo Duro Canyon was very different than the one in California, I think from just the decor, the type of house, the type of food that was served to the one in Atlanta, you know, and we're all practicing RT and we're using that model, but kind of where you showed up to what intensive the culture. The cultural experience would be very different. You know, I remember back in the day, some Californians would show up to the one in Amarillo and might be taken back a little bit by some of the big game hunting stuffed animals.

Oh my gosh.

There. You know, and so I don't know, it's just. It's helpful.

Rhett, you should share, like when you walk into the hideaway, what you walk on and what. It's all over the place.

Oh, what is it?

Well, it's very Texan and like big game hunting and decor, stuffed animals and. And rugs that might be laid out in terms of animal skins.

And so it's like kudu staring at you during the.

Yeah, so it's its own culture. And sometimes when you're in the dominant culture or you live in a place, you kind of don't. You take it for granted maybe that you have a cultural identity. And I don't know, I just want to backtrack on and say that's like super helpful for me as a therapist to think about. Yeah, I have this cultural identity. It may not be. I may not think of it a lot because when you look at the conversation in the public, when they use that language, it has a very specific. Maybe lean to it and. And if I'm not aware of. Can cause problems in my own work in terms of my therapy practice and maybe getting out of my. Not getting out of my own way. So, yeah, that's just super helpful. I just wanted. I just wanted to mention that.

Well, and I love what your daughter is experiencing. Sometimes we have to remove ourselves from our familiar environment to recognize what it is. Right. Sort of that I thou dynamic. Right. I will always see myself or you will always see me more clearly. And I can see myself because you're on the outside. So if I'm able to then hear your questions and hear your curiosity and engage and begin to recognize, oh, wait, this is what it means to belong to this culture of being a Texan. This is what it means to be from Texas in all the beauty and the challenges. All cultures come with a lot of assets and resources and have their limitations. Right. So it's all of that. But often we take that for granted. We all do until we remove ourselves from our familiar community and environments and for the first time are seen differently and see differently. And so what a rich, Perhaps challenging, but what a rich experience. I hope that it hasn't been an offensive or a hard one for your daughter, but one that has expanded her own imagination. Probably she's learning. I mean, Spokane is, Is not all of Washington state. Right? It is. It is a very particular. Has its own particular culture. I, I hope that that's been imagination expanding for her as well. And that that's. That's really beautiful. And I'll say that I, you know, it's. Sometimes we can get caught in thinking that it's people from the majority culture who have to be more curious about people from minoritized groups. It goes both ways. You know, it's. It's. If you are so used to being on the margins or sort of being decentered and you're used to sort of looking at and be compared to, you can start to build some of your own assumptions and lean in fully into stereotypes only. So, you know, we know stereotypes aren't necessarily wrong. They're just incomplete. They don't. They just don't tell the fullness of the story of the person or the community. So we all need to remain curious. We all need to get out of our comfort zone and ask more of these questions. And, you know, for me, when I talk about my cultural identity, there's the obvious ones that, you know, I'm Asian American, I'm Korean American, I'm first and second generation. But I also have this other subculture of my faith that I grew up as a Seventh Day Adventist that really, really shaped and went. And then I grew up in a Korean Adventist church. So it was like, where did my faith end in my culture begin? And vice versa. And I have these who grew up in war Korea, and not in Christian households and grew up with communism and superstition and Buddhism. And they are. They've been Christians more of their life than they weren't. And they still carry some of these cultural frames in their mind about dream interpretation, about signs, you know, that are very traditional Korean. And it's both. And I mean, you might hear some of this and go, wait, and they're Christian. That doesn't sound very Christian. And I've grown up going, no, it Is both. They're Christian and they're. They're Korean of the frozen generation. I. I want to hold both. I need to hold both. I don't want to be quick to pathologize one or the. So.

Hey, Daniel. Daniel's interpretation of Some Dreams came in handy for the. For the. For our body. I'm just saying.

Yes. So anyways, but it's. It's. It's, you know, migration and movement and being in intersection with and relationship with people who not only are like us because we need that, but who are different from us because we need that too. If we're open and available to be inquisitive and to have our minds expanded by those experiences, we will be better people. I think we will be better therapists. Therapists. I think we'll be better healers. I mean, I think we will be seeing one another rightly as God intends for us to see one another as all image bearers of him in our diversity. And despite the fact that 99 of our. Of who we are is actually more in common than. Than not, our diversity and our difference is all down to 1%. That's incredible. What an amazing God.

So, yeah, I love the idea that sometimes when we step out of our. Our predominant culture, we can even come to appreciate it maybe differently than when you're in it, you know, and you can critique it a lot when you're in it, but to step out, you might be able to look with a sense of curiosity about, here are some things that I really like about it, and here are some things maybe that aren't so helpful, you know, which I think is what my daughter's experience is. You know, you live here. And then she's like, I just got to get out. And now she's like, oh, there are some things that I like. And there are things they're teaching her in the Pacific Northwest that weren't a part of our culture here that are really beautiful. I mean, I'll just. That was the first time on visiting schools up there that I think I was ever, you know, participating in some type of land acknowledgement for the Native Americans. Like, it was part of all the school orientations, and we don't have that here. And it's a really just beautiful, rich experience that I think enriches her time at Gonzaga. And. And there's attention required to hold both appreciation of some things that are. I don't want to say good, but maybe positive, and then to also hold intention. Some things that we have to look at and say that's not positive and be able to critique that. And that's a lot of the work as a therapist, you know, is being able to hold things in tension with your client. And let's talk about pain and peace cycle, navigating the complexity of that.

Yeah. And I think that when. When I work with clients who start to identify their. Their family, their community and the culture, that helps reinforce a. A message that brings them a lot of pain. I think that's exactly what I try to do, is hold that, hear that, recognize and acknowledge that, but also teach the client to be able to see that for what it is, but also recognize that she or he can make a different choice. But how they understand their own identity and how they want to move forward and live out of a different message, but it doesn't have to require them to reject their family and deny their cultural identity. I think that micro moment right there of this is part of my culture and that feeling like I can't change that. There's nothing that can be done. I don't like what it is, how it makes me feel, or how I experience my own identity or how my family treats me, but it's culture. It's somehow like culture gets exempt from having to be looked at or addressed. It's like this untouchable thing. It's like, well, let's understand that. And maybe how do you even understand why. How that became a part of your community or your family's cultural narrative? And how. How is that even. How do you understand that embedded within white majority culture? How do you understand that socio. Politically now we're, you know, we can have these conversations for weeks and weeks. So I'm not necessarily explicating all of that with my clients, but I'm beginning to just sort of acknowledge and just tap that all, all of these experiences, even your family's experience, your communities, you know, it. It's happening in the, in the larger sociocultural context that maybe you can have that conversation with your family or you can be curious about yourself, but at the end of the day, once the client knows their truths, what are they going to do with that? And it doesn't have to be a threat to live out of a different message, doesn't have to be a threat to their connection to their family. I mean, I think probably dede and Sharon are going to talk a lot about this piece. And this has been brought up around how. Around polarization, politics and the cutoff and the cancel culture. We don't. It doesn't have to be either or either identify with my culture, my family, or I get self regulated and emotionally differentiated and can be healthy. No, actually that will perpetuate more unhealth. It's just changing geography. It. That becomes more of the same. How can you. Emotional regulation actually means being able to enter into those spaces without, without losing a sense of, of your truths. Being able to regulate and actually provide inputs into the system that might start a different, you know, that might sort of engender a new message or that's the intergenerational piece, the work you may be doing even for the next generation. Excuse me, how do, how do you train?

Like, because you, you work with a bunch of new therapists as well. And I remember when I was a new therapist, I was, I was always mindful of like everything way more than I probably should be. And then I was afraid to go into territory. I like this language of touching the untouchable. I'm leaning into the untouchable of. I think we, we tend to be nice around a lot of areas, but we're not super kind for, for a lot of people to, to, to step into the zone and ask questions. How do you encourage your therapist to engage with that? Curiosity. Curiosity and around, you know, these types of questions around like the untouched, particularly the untouchable. You know, holding the untouchable. I don't know what the word we would use here.

Mm. I, I do a lot of role playing and demonstrating.

Yeah.

So I don't, I think I can safely say 100% of the time when I ask my students or my trainees to engage in a difficult conversation, especially around these untouchable identity topics. I, I do it, I demonstrate it, or I'll go right into it with them and just start to be the therapist and I'll role play that with them. And, and then I also check in with them about how, how comfortable are they in being able to talk about these things in, not in the therapy space, but just themselves. Because I also would not want one of my trainees to go into that conversation easily dysregulated, very much deer in headlights with their own identity feeling. This is forced. Like that's not helpful to the trainee, especially not for the client. So I do a check in with them. But I do demonstrate, I'd say these last few weeks in supervision, I've been demonstrating those conversations around, particularly around race. And then just recently I had an Asian American trainee working with an Asian American client. And there are a lot of points of parallel, but my therapist felt like, like they needed to always keep a distance because they didn't want to like hijack the story of, of the client because of the similarities particularly. And I invited her to consider. Well, but it actually might be a. This is how you do it, where it's about you, that's what you don't do. This is how you do it, where it's about the best interest of a client. You're doing this for the clinical movement with the client. And here, here's the difference. This is what you think you're. I'm asking you to do. I'm not asking you to do this, I'm actually asking you to do this.

Yeah.

And what it might do in its simplicity is just create a point of familiarity and an experience of being seen in a way that the clients never felt seen. And that's exactly what ended up happening. The therapist came back and said, I did it. And it just brought emotion to the client in a way that was poignant and different and new. And so, you know, I don't take those nudges lightly when I'm nudging and I'm inv and I don't ever say you have to do this. I say, this is something I'm curious about and I wonder if this could facilitate some good movement with the client. Let's try this. How do you feel about it? And I'm also gauging that with them and then I encourage them. A couple weeks ago I had worked with a co therapy team to engage with their client to talk about this issue of race because there was a very clear reference to one therapist and not to the other. And it was a client who was a person of color who was only referencing the therapist who was a person of color and not referencing like zero eye contact with the other therapist. And so we sort of talked through this, what could be happening. And so we had role played in ways to move into this conversation. Just sort of is a way to say to the client, we give you, we give you permission and we can handle this conversation. And minutes before they went into the session, I checked in with them. I said, what are you thinking? How are you feeling? They said, you know, we just feel like this isn't the conversation we should be having. I said, don't do it. Absolutely do not do it. Only do it if you feel like that's what needs to happen. And their gut was right and they did not have that conversation. So empowering this, the therapists to the trainees to, to sort of show up in that conversation in a way that they feel they're capable of and that feels is honoring to the therapeutic relationship, but still inviting them to be curious about that question and be curious about that conversation.

Yeah, Yeah, I think. What, what about you, Rhett? Like, when that comes up, what for? Like, when, when you hear me young kind of mention all these, like. I mean, obviously, I think role play to me has been like, one of the best gifts of, like, getting over asking the hard questions. I remember particularly, like, sexuality stuff was like, I don't, like, there's this, like, junior high part that would get concerned about saying, like, different parts of the body and you'd be like, ah, you know, or talking about, like, using the proper language. But yeah, I think, like, finding that ability to practice and recognize what's going on inside of you. I think this is so important.

Yeah, it varies. I think, you know, I'm in a, you know, a small private practice, and I think for me, even, I think even before getting into, like, a role play or some experiential thing, I've just found it important just to name the things, like to not dance around and beat around the bush of something that seems like it's present in the room. Whether it's an issue around cultural identity, whether that's around faith or sexuality or color of skin or whatever the issue may be. I, I. And maybe that's my own anxiety, but I always feel like once we're able to just name it and put it out on the table in front of us, that that has always been really helpful and that may have to do something with the, I think the safety in the room that the person feels with the therapist also. And so sometimes I may, if I'm not saying this always happens in a first session. Right. It may happen a little bit later when you feel like there's a level of trust between therapists and client. And so for me, it's about saying, here's this thing I've noticed. I wonder if you've experienced it too, in the work that we're doing and can we just talk about it? And even just talking to Terry and Sharon a few weeks ago about polarization stuff has had me thinking a lot more about, like, broaching, political conversations in therapy where I found myself, I think me and the client not talking about things, but to say, yeah, let's just put this on the table and let's practice emotionally regulating and showing up in a way that is honoring and respectful for both client and therapist. And I don't know, I, you know, that's Kind of for me, where I'm at just, just naming it. There's so much power in just naming it, I think, and not dancing around and pretending like something doesn't exist. Right. I have this little kid story out here in the hallway, like in one of my shelves, and someone gave it to me years ago. This little kid's book, it's about a dragon. This kid brings home a little dragon, like a baby dragon to the house one day and no one's talking about it. They just kind of ignore the dragon in the house. And as you go through this story, it just grows larger and larger until the dragon dominates the whole landscape and takes over everyone's lives. Until finally, like the littlest kid in the house and the family says something about, oh, what's this dragon doing in our home? You know? And it kind of just takes all the power out of it. And I think I've thought about that story a lot, that naming, naming things, which is why I think naming your pain and peace cycle is so powerful. We put language to something. It can really help us address the topic at hand. So that's a long answer.

Yeah, we, you can only change that which you can name. And whether change being change it or change your understanding, change your relationship too. So I think naming is huge. And I, I will agree with you that generally this isn't a first session conversation. I do think that having rapport, having that therapeutic, you know, good joining and that therapeutic trust is ideal in being able to have this conversation in that space.

Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? Like, I don't know. I, I, you know, I keep going back and I'm going to mispronounce the word Kintsugi. Kintsugi. How do you say it? I, I knew it at one time. My parents actually bought me a couple years ago this beautiful bowl that my wife and I have up in our house on one of the shelves. And it's just, it's. I love it. And I was thinking about cultural artifacts or something and I'm curious if either of you or you've heard other people tell stories of something they've used to address, something maybe through a cultural lens that has meaning in that, in that context, does it make sense? Like just could be, it could be a piece of art or something. I, I mean, I love the idea of eating ramen at midnight with, at the teeth returning from anxiety. I, I just, Yeah. I just wonder if you've heard, either of you heard any stories or things that people have done to creatively connect the work that they're doing from a cultural diversity lens.

You know, I think inviting a client to bring something in that's representative of what's important to them and to even add that question around what's important or what can be representative of your cultural identity. I have done that. I. I actually like asking clients to bring in something from their home or something that is special to them. Could be a song. It can be a physical, tangible artifact of some sort. Is. Is that what you're asking, though? Like.

Yeah, I just. I. I just was taken. I was just listening. I was just taken aback by how you. It seems like we're very intentional about using some things that were meaningful in that cultural context and how that was probably really helpful in the work you did. And I'm kind of just curious about. In the work with students or training therapists or. Lance, you have a team. If either of you have seen something that was like, oh, wow, that was a really creative way to connect with a client and to. To help them, you know, shift maybe their perspective because they were able to identify with something that was part of their culture, whether it's food or something. And I. That's what I was just curious about.

You know, I will say, and I think we've talked about this in another context, but inviting them to use their heart language. So heart language being the. The language with which they feel most comfortable and familiar with, especially around expression. And. And it may not be that the psychological terms translate, but the. The story that I have shared is, you know, the. I had a Korean American therapist who worked with a Korean American client who was bilingual, and they were working on the pain cycle, and it did not. The light bulb did not go on until this client was invited to say it in Korean. There just something about the word, the pain word, that just couldn't quite capture what they were feeling. And the pain word did not have a direct translation to English either. So from that point forward, this client's pain cycle remained in Korean. It was just in Korean. And it resonated. It finally made sense. And it took them saying, why don't you say this in Korean? Or, why don't let's do this session in Korean. And because I can understand Korean, I was able to observe and supervise that session. I wouldn't be able to do it in any other language except English, but it was. It was. It was such a powerful experience for that client to be able to. To be able to use a language that was what we call, you know, their heart language. So even if we can't understand, you know, a particular word that would go on the pain psychotherapy. I would, I would encourage us, you know, ask them if they, if we know they're a client, if English is their second language or another language is, you know, is they're equally fluent in English and another language, but the other language is the primary language that they use to speak to their family, to their extended family. I call that the heart. That could be their heart language. And to invite them to use that and to write that into the pain cycle and the peace cycle or, you know, put it into their cognitive maps. And even if you don't fully understand it, you're probably going to see the embodied experience, you know, the way they light up, the way they, they, they speak with so much more expressivity and to, to consider using. Yeah. Being open to a different language.

What, what would you say to us? Like, I'm just thinking, you're going to teach after this. You know, you're going to go see your students and let's say you're working with students or a new therapist. I mean, it could be a therapist who's been in practice for years, and they are fearful or intimidated by, let's say, someone of a different background, culture, experiences, comes in their office, wants to work with them, but the therapist doesn't feel like they unders. Like they have the gifts or know enough about the culture to be effective as a therapist. Like what, what kind of. What would you encourage them to do? Or to think about that like people are. People have chosen you, they want to come work with you. They, they probably know you're a different background and culture, but you may feel like, what do I have to offer? I didn't grow up in this environment. I don't know these things. What would you say?

What I do say is, do some research. First of all, are you in touch with your own narrative? Have you been curious about your own cultural narrative? But do some research. McGoldrick has written that book on ethnicity. It's a bit dated, but there's some general themes. Do you know any therapists or peers or friends who share that cultural background? Ask some questions. I would not say ask the clients to educate you on their culture. First session, do some research to get some basic information to start to orient yourself from which you can start to develop an informed curiosity. Be willing to have cultural humility. Have humility that you, you know, and you know, Terry often talked about when we were in the, when he would teach at Fuller. You know, humility is knowing yourself rightly go in with the gifts and the assets and the expertise that you do possess while being aware of your limitations and your need for help, ultimately from God. But get, get, get information, get some help, but do, do work. And I think that, you know, as a medical family therapist, we always needed to do that. We didn't go in with expertise on an illness. Yeah, but if I'm going to work with a patient who is dealing with a diagnosis that I've never heard of, I'm absolutely going to go do some research. I'm going to have a conversation with some of the nurses or some of the physicians. I'm going to at least try to get a baseline. But I'm not going to go, go in there acting like I have expertise to the level of, you know, healthcare practitioner. But I will have some curiosity. And then at some point I will also say, this is my understanding. It's very limited, but I want to know what's your experience of that? So, yeah, you know, this is my understanding that and from, from some of my experience growing up in Southern California and having a lot of Mexican, Mexican American friends growing up that oftentimes it is a patriarchal culture, but very much a matriarchal, you know, in practice. But what's been your experience? Does that align? Is there some, you know, is there some resonance there? Or what was your experience? Because I'm saying here's some general understanding from which I want to be curious about your experience. But I would say that to the student. I would say do some research, ask some questions, be humble and know that you do have something to offer. Even though you don't have experience firsthand of their culture. You have something to offer as a human healer, as a therapist. And don't forget that you have power in that room that the client does not have. They are experts of their story, but you're the professional expert in the room. You might feel like you're only one step ahead of your client in your expertise because you're a newbie, but they are seeing you as an expert in the room. So humility means being aware of your power and your expertise and using that to get more knowledge. Understand that your client is still seeing you as the expert in the room. How are you going to engage them with your expertise and your humility by saying, I'm still curious and I do have something to learn from you? I mean, this is where I think, you know, this notion of hospitality, of being both the host, recognizing that there is blessing to be given by both the Host and also the guest. So in hospitality, there's always a host and that person is always the person who has more leverage. They own the place, they own the space. They determine the time, they determine the decor. You know, your office space. You're inviting your clients into a sacred space that you are hosting them. And you have something to also learn from your client. And it's going to be their story and the particularities of. Of their story. So be curious about that.

That's so good.

I. I love that just the. To become more culturally literate and, and knowing when and, and, and. And how to step in. I. Yeah, I was wanting to share. We don't really have a lot of time, but one of the books that I read a while back, I grabbed it off the bookshelf. I got challenged, by the way, about 15 years ago by one of my best friends. He said, hey, how many of the books on your bookshelf are written by people that look and sound like you? And I was really embarrassed to look at my bookshelf and see that a lot of the people looked and sounded like me. So I started like, trying to like, like every February for Black History Month, I'll. I have to read like a book by, by. By a black person or like, you know, I try and like, set up that I'm that to. To lean into this. But one of the books I really liked is Many Colors By Fuller Professor Dr. Ra. So good. But he talks about in here, he has like these five different dimensions to pay attention. These spectrums to pay attention to like developing cultural intelligence. And I'll, I'll just name them real quick. And we won't have time to go into them, but it might be for the, for the listener. I'd recommend picking up the book. And this is like, one way to get more culturally literate. Like, is one is to ask the question, like, is this a person individual or versus a group orientation? Is that like the way they connect? Like, are they more. More like about like have to act cooperatively in a group or like. No, we are individuality type focus. Another thing Dr. R.A. talks about is the guilt versus shame dynamics. You know, are we. Are we like, like, responsible for our individual sin or is this like a corporate sin type thing? Like, based on. On the group? That's going to be how you talk to that person. How is your. How are you arraigned? Is it like an equality or a hierarchical type system? You know, how flat is. Is this system? Is it more like, do we have flexible roles and expectations? Or is it really firm on roles and expectations? Is this culture a direct culture or indirect culture?

Right.

Do we, you know, can we talk about things right in the face or do we have to like, kind of meander around these, these types of things? And the other, the final one, I'm sure there's way more than this in general, but he talks about is task versus relationship. You know, are we focused in on like, you know, the goal and we're trying to attach, you know, making sure we, we, we win or are we connected to how we're connecting with one another? You know, is. Is people more important or is it what we're doing that's more important, important? And you. Obviously there's like an individualized level on how we experience culture, but I always think that I, I like to think about that, like when I'm asking questions of others.

So I appreciate that. Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, I just thinking about Paul in Acts 17 when he's on Mars Hill. It seems like he has a pretty good working knowledge and understanding of the cultural diversity in that environment, the time, whether it's the Athenians or the Jewish synagogue and all the different types of philosophers at the time, the different social classes. And seems to just at least from my reading, be really curious about them and to engage them and also present a different way. Like, here's a different way, you know, and I think with rt, the ability to enter into people's spaces with humility. I was writing down how you, how Terry defined that. I really like that.

So good.

And to say we think. Here's. We think this is a better way to help you move from that old self to that new self. Well.

I mean, we could talk about us.

This.

There's so much great.

Like make one just lot. I know we're on.

Yeah, I know you're good.

You need to go. Can I make one last.

Yeah.

This comment. Love that you shared Seungchan's book and the content from there. And I was just struck by how you prefaced it though, talked about the, the books on your shelves and sort of the shame you were feeling. And I love that you had this friend who challenged you and you've taken that challenge to heart. I think that's so. That's. I love that about you, Lance. You're so authentic and you're sort of all in what you do.

It's in the name.

I want to say no reason for shame for having a lot of really rich, wonderful theologians and authors who may have not been people of color but had something Good to say. Yeah. And you're adding to that. This sort of goes to this last piece about the both and the field of psychology was mostly founded by European white men. I am grateful for the work that they have done. It didn't take us and we still are not as far as we need to be, but that's how our field began. And I just want to say, and I was struck by your comment because I thought there's no shame in that, but I think the task is just to not say that's the final word. And that is the ultimate end that we are getting to. They started telling a story. It's not finished. And so our work is to bring in all those other voices, but to do that without truncating or getting feeling shame about how it began. So, Lance, you probably weren't even meaning that, but that just really struck me and I thought, oh, I'd love to just sort of bring this both and back. That I do want to recognize that voices of color and people of color did not always have a platform to write and to speak. Now they do. Now we do. But that hasn't always been the case. And so those who did have given us a gift. And we need to keep building on that gift. So it's both.

And I received that. I received that.

And you need to keep riding Myeong and Lance and building on that gift. That's what we'll keep doing.

Thanks for the conversation. Yeah.

Enjoy your class today.

Yes, thank you.

Take care, everyone.

Okay, cheers.