Season 1 | Episode 41 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Megan Kuder

Lance, what's up, man?

Rhett, what's going on, my friend?

I feel there's a lot of pressure on how the podcast starts now because Ro feels like you and I have a signature start, which is, I don't know, it's not very professional. It's very Southern California, laid back.

I. Yeah, I guess that's what it is because he's like, make sure you do the thing. I'm like, I don't know what we're doing.

Yeah, okay. I mean, I've. I have a 15 year old boy at home and so a lot of that lingo will slip into my conversation sometimes, which is, you know, six, seven bad.

It kind of feels like the. Did you ever watch the old Budweiser commercials where like, sup? Yeah, I think that's what we sound like, probably.

I don't know. Well, we'll. We'll stop chatting and I'm gonna introduce our guests. Is that cool?

I would love that.

So I've been trying to track down our guests for a while. She's been, like, really busy. Megan Cooter. I hope I say the last name right. She'll correct me here in a second, but is the founder of Be well Counseling. Counseling, I think Atlanta. Atlanta, yeah, in Atlanta.

Long name.

Long name. And she's a part of our RT community. She'll talk more about the work that she's doing. But as we were chatting back and forth over the last, I don't know, probably like five, six months at least.

It's been a work.

Yeah, she's been busy. And one of the things that really caught my attention was she was away at a Jesuit retreat. And I love the Jesuits. My daughter goes to a Jesuit college, and so I love. I love what they're about and stuff. So I'm interested to hear about this as well. So, Megan, welcome to the RT Dialogue. You're episode 41.

I'm like, is there a psalm now that we're talking about Jesuit stuff? Should we just read Psalm 41?

Isaiah 41.

Isaiah 41 is really good. That's a life verse.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. Hi. Thanks for having me. Thanks for tracking me down and staying with it.

Yeah, no, we're excited to have you. You've obviously been a part of the community for a while and you're super involved. And so I. There's a couple of thoughts I had. I'd love to hear. Just how did you get into rt? But I'm also thinking, yeah, tell us what's kind of led you up to this point. That we're actually talking because it sounds like you took a step back, got a lot of things going, your life, you're at a gesture rich retreat. And you had said in the email to kind of reset things. And so I'm kind of curious about what brought you to this moment and how RT fits into all of that, if that's a question, which I think.

This is good for our therapists that are out there.

Because.

How long have you been in the field now, Megan?

Thirteen years.

Thirteen years. I. I think, you know, it's. It's really good. Like if you're a therapist who's listening and you're kind of resonating with what Megan's saying, I think it's really important to lean into what she's saying.

Yeah, no pressure. So I'll answer the first question, how I'll answer the first. I'll go in chronological order how I got involved in rt, which then I think will lead into kind of my pause and what I did this summer and where I'm at now. If that's cool with y'. All.

Yeah, game on.

So game on. Cool. Well, I'm in Atlanta. I graduated from Richmond Graduate University here. There's not a lot of Atlanta people, but if you are an Atlanta person, just this is just like a plug. Like email me so that we can get our own consult group going with rt. I would love that. Yes.

And all of Megan's info will be in the show notes afterwards. I'll put her email in there as well.

Yeah, I would love to get in. I'm jealous of Lance and Rhett's consult group. I try. I've. I've never officially hopped on Rhett's, but I've hopped on Lance's a few times.

Ours is just more of a connect. We're just like Texas people connecting right now. Lance is the official consult group.

Cool. Cool. Yeah, there's good stuff. So anyway, I'll have to say, yeah, I graduated, I guess in 2013 from Richmond and was. Worked at a psychiatric institute like you do when you get out of school. Also worked at a private practice and then was working with my church to build and an old professor of mine from Richmond who's actually out in Albuquerque, New Mexico, Marty Gehring. I worked with him for that first year outside of grad school and a few other colleagues in Atlanta to build a church based counseling center. So did that. That started actually the month I got married in September 2014, a year after I graduated and some change. We started a church based Counseling center that did sliding fee work, insurance work, that sort of thing. Partnered with a lot of different nonprofits. We were right by Georgia Tech, so I saw a ton of college students. Georgia Tech is a really intense school and high, High anxiety and unfortunately just some childhood. A lot of just childhood trauma that leads to high performance, which we know from the RT model. So did that, unfortunately went through a pretty rough miscarriage. And that kind of like health issues do kind of paused me and helped me reconsider what am I doing? Kind of like, where am I going? Where do I want to be? And that led me to open up my own practice in July of 2018. And then I met Katie Goede, who y' all know from Atlanta. And at a networking event when I was marketing, like you do in private practice, just relational marketing. I met her at an event and we just hit it off and we went to lunch. Shortly after, she told me about Terry and Sharon Hargrave, who were coming in town that January. I was pregnant with my first child, my daughter at that time. And I went to their training at 32 weeks pregnant. I sat through the weekend with Terri and sharon and like 20 others in the Atlanta area and did the level one training. And at that time in my private practice in East Atlanta in the city, I was seeing a lot of women who were going through, who had had. Who had experienced, you know, anything from just different traumas, either singular traumas, like a sexual assault, or just some pretty significant, like ACEs scores, like just childhood trauma type work. And I was doing a lot of EMDR at the time and was feeling pretty. I was, you know, feeling fairly equipped. I, you know, was fully licensed and whatnot. But I felt like something was missing in my training, like when I was really getting in the weeds with people and really trying to. Like, we were really seeing some significant change. I just felt like I wasn't always seeing a. The change really happen and the light bulb turn on or I wasn't seeing like sustained change. Like, we had to go through the whole other EMDR treatment plan, which, if you're familiar with emdr, there's like eight phases to it. There's just a. It's a pretty long, intensive journey. People were getting, you know, been stuck in the journey, migraines. Like, it was just a lot of. There was just. There was some hiccups, let's just say there. So I went to the training excited to learn, you know, this model that Katie Goede was just so in love with. And she had had a successful practice. She's a bit, you know, more seasoned than I was at the time. And so yeah, I went to that weekend and it really just changed my life. Like it was really like a line in the sand for me doing that part one training. And I'd gone through the whole level 12 trainings of EMDR, you know, in Georgia, went up to Chattanooga, Tennessee. Like it was, that was an intense training but then, and then supervision after that. But Terry's part one training, I was like this is the secret sauce. Like this is what I've been needing. And I asked in that, in that training, really asked a lot of questions trying to get the negative cognitions with the, you know, pain cycle triggering emotions. Like I was really trying to like format it maybe like around how I was conceptualizing my treatment planning with EMDR and with some more trauma informed body work. And Terry was so gracious. I'm sure I was like a pain in the butt at the treatment because I was so curious. And I remember talking to he and Sharon at the end of it and Sharon saying I'm sure we'll be seeing you in the future. I was like, I hope that's a good thing. So yeah, so curious. Megan really came out in that. And, and, and, and then I birthed my first child in March of 2019 and I think in like September of. Was it. Yeah, birthday March maybe somewhere in like the fall. I was on the RT emails getting emails from Megan Lundgren. There was a lot of Megans in the RT world. I'm sure you've also realized that because it's a very popular name in the 80s so and so and the different iterations too. My, my Christian joke is God didn't breathe on me. I don't have the H. It's just a. It's me G A so anyway, all that to say I, I signed up for the level two training when I was like six months postpartum because I was back in work. I just took a 12 week maternity leave and that was rough. I didn't sleep the whole night before my daughter went to daycare for the first time and, and luckily she was. I was working just two days a week at early on at that time and then I went through the level two training actually our first weekend was all virtual but our first weekend was February 2020 and then obviously Covid hit and then our second weekend because the level two was two weekends at the time. I think it's still the same. I'm not sure you have to correct me Lance, if I'm Wrong. The second weekend of that was. Yeah. Then we had to do video, you know, we're doing videos. So I fortunately got, you know, my videos done, obviously from February. I had done them right before COVID hit in March. And so I had enough video footage to do it, but not everyone did because our second weekend was April, like mid April 2020. And oh my gosh, I was in that training with Megan Eakin and with Jason Free, like some of the guys that have been. Yes. Oh, nice. Yes. I believe he'll correct me if I'm wrong. I think he was in that training. Some of the guys, some of the people that were at the anxiety retreat we went to in Windshape a couple like a year and a half ago. Yeah, were. Were there. So we had a great group, strong, strong cohort. It was a. We bonded. I mean it was. Yeah, it was, it was an interesting time to. To be doing really intensive therapy work. Yeah. In the RT model while we're all going through really intensive journey, you know, journeys and. Yeah, so that was my. Then, you know, that was, that was my introduction to RT and I fell in love with the model. Was doing a lot of RT work and was also. Yeah. After the level two training, actually I. One of my big things when. What I personally realized in my own personal work, which is like one of the huge things that I love just as a supervisor, but also as just a human, is how RT really just gets into your own bones first. And I think when it gets into your own body and nervous system, I see the, you know, that empowerment happening. It floods to the client. Right. And so one of the things I realized was how much I was struggling and postpartum with feeling out of control. Not surprisingly to any human who's ever been around a mother with a baby or any other mother with your first.

It can happen.

Yeah, yeah. Feeling out of control. And of course I was just like over functioning, like signing up for this big training model. Like why I'm 6 months post and then like finishing it when I'm a year postpartum, first kid growing my practice. Like it was, it was a lot. But I, but I was loving it and. But I was realizing that there were just some personal things going on where I was like not tending to, let's say, like in that way. And so, so we ended up. But I remember Terry set a follow up email saying, you know, just some feedback from the level two training. Because that was in. Yeah, that was 2020. And I mentioned. Well, you know, I actually ended up buying A house in the suburbs. Like, we completely uprooted our life. We'd been in Atlanta. My husband and I, at that time had. We had. We owned a home there and had my practice there. Lived our life, our community, our church, everything was in this one area of East Atlanta. And. And then we moved and uprooted from the southeast side of town. Atlanta has a belt line around it called 285. We then moved from the southeast of town to the northwest side of town where we only knew one other couple. And, yeah, we just needed more space. And just with the. Yeah, it was. It was a leap of faith, but it just felt like that's what we needed to do. And so RT and the work that even personally I was able to do during that level two training, like, helped me feel empowered, helped my husband and I really work through some conflict to really connect on, like, our values and what we really. Yeah. 1A. We moved up to where he was gone 12 hours of the day, commuting, working at a corporation up there. A little tool shop called Home Depot, if you've heard of it. And so. And so they're. They're corporate locations located eight minutes down the street from our house. And so we've lived here. And I moved my practice. Obviously it was online during COVID And then I moved my practice to this side of town near the Atlanta Braves Stadium, but. Go Dodgers. I think you're happy about that. Or. No. Are you not happy? No. The wrong team. Wrong team. Sorry. Sorry. Oh, this is how much I don't know baseball. A colleague of mine is from California, and she's a huge Dodgers fan. So we were together last night, and she was excited and talking about the World Series, so I was like, that's great.

So happy for your colleague.

San Diego Padres. Padres, great. Okay.

I'm thankful that you thought of baseball. That's. That's cool. I respect that.

Yeah. Yeah. I. I have a. Yeah. Have a son, and he'll start playing T ball in the spring, so I gotta really learn that. And I live near the Brave Stadium. They're like, I should know more. But.

Yeah, me, I haven't. I haven't done Brave Stadium yet. Anyway, that's on my list.

Well, we have a guest room, and you're welcome to come visit if you want to enter into some chaos. So you'd have a place to stay. I just expect the same if I come to San Diego if my cousin doesn't want to host me, you know. Yeah.

Got surfboards ready to go.

That's great. That's great. I got the. What, the porch ready to go. Is that you said?

Surfboards.

Oh, surfboards.

I see the porch. And I was like, you know, we like camping. I can do that.

It's really tight. I recommend the guest room.

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So I would. I've surfed in. In Santa Monica area, and I. I grew up in Orlando, some of Florida gal, but I've relocated this area anyway, that's a whole other side note. But my ideal life. One day would be able to be near the water again. But. Yeah. So back to. Back to RT and level two training, basically, it was just. It was. It was hugely helpful for my own life, my own marriage, my family. It just really helped me do some deeper healing work that I didn't know I needed to do at. You know, like, as you mature and go through these life stages and, you know, Rhett, you've been vulnerable, talking about your child off in college and that life stage. I know. I listened to the podcast with Dee Dee, and y' all just talking about some of that, and I'm like, oh, I'm already. I, like, held my kids tight that night. I was like, don't grow up.

Like, I know these punks.

Yeah. I'm like, don't go far away for college. Actually, maybe you should. I can be differentiated. I don't know what I'm saying. I'm just emotional. Yeah. So, yeah, it's like, we continue to heal throughout our. Throughout our lifespan. So. Yeah. I really just loved the model, fell in love with it, and then started doing some training with Terry. And now I'm getting to the good stuff that you wanted to talk about the Jesuit retreat.

Well, I wanted to say something like, I think the thing I pick up on from everybody that we talk to, whether on the podcast or just in person, like, in our community, is the idea, like you said, of getting in your bones. It transforms everybody, personally, I think, first, and they're like, oh, this is different. And they become excited and passionate about it, and that's why they want to take it to the people they work with, because they want them to experience it, too, which I think is unique. I mean, because a lot of models, people haven't maybe practiced or experienced, but it's a popular model out there, and so they'll go do training in it. But, yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just absolutely everybody is, like, practicing the RT stuff in their own personal lives.

Yes. And that's what I think is so powerful about about it. And. Yeah, and to loop back to that, even with, like, there's some other great models out there. You know, like, EMDR is not a bad, bad model, but. And I'll do. And, you know, Terry's like, do bilateral stimulation in session with clients. Like, he's very. I love how, like, integrated. I love how integrative Terry is with the model of RT where he says, let's use things that we know, help the body regulate. Like, if you see a client. Because I tend to work with not all my caseload anymore, but a portion of it will be clients that have some more significant just attachment nervous system issues from multiple traumas or chronic, kind of like chronic stress and pain. And so with that, it gets very triggering to even walk through something like the four steps, because it's like, oh, how do I even go back to naming my powerlessness over? Yeah, like, it's. It's painful for. For them. It's like, re. Triggering for them to name it. Right. And so being able just to take. You know, I have my AirPod case here, but Terry's big on just, you know, whatever you have around you take a sheet of paper and rip it up and crumple it up in your hand and move it from left to right and stand up. And so that's really what led me to get a bigger office back here, where it's like, I have people walk around. I do some somatic interventions with push against the wall and do a deep vu breath, if you're familiar with that, deep basal tones to calm the nervous system, and then let's continue to move forward. And that's what I love about. I think what I love about RT is how efficient it is and really structuring, like sequencing a client's pain and then moving them from, you know, their level of activation almost it naturally contains it a bit so that they don't get flooded yet in the pain. And then they're able to then move more into this window of tolerance where they're, like, still in their comfort zone. Like, oh, I was able to see myself in this one session go from being almost outside of my tolerability. Like, I'm outside my prefrontal cortex in my midbrain. And then they're able to move back into their prefrontal cortex and say, wait, I can actually. Like, I've had clients that look at me. Can I actually do that in my real life? You know, And I'm like, yeah, you can. Like, we're practicing it, and I love how Terri's really kind of mentored us all and coached us in this empowerment where we can actually empower clients to really have tools and resources for their real life in real business meetings or in real homes or in real school systems or wherever they are they're able. We can give clients real tools to actually get better and then continue to stay better. Whereas other models, I think, rely so heavily on the therapist to just be the magician or the healer to do all the work for their client. And I think we hear these juxtaposing messages in grad school. As I've. As I've supervised some of their grad students right out of grad school, they're like, I know I'm not work harder than my client, but I don't know how to. How to do this without working harder than them. Like, they're coming to me because they need help. Right. And I think RT really helps empower the therapist to empower the client to trust themselves again. So many people have that rupture in this sense of safety, and they don't trust themselves anymore. And that was a huge thing I saw, and that was really where I was getting tripped up with, with my clients previously in emdr is that they. They did feel like they could start to trust themselves, but then there would be something else that was. And then we'd have to go through the whole other. This whole other treatment plan. And it just became. It's so long and drawn out, and it's great to pad my pocket, quite frankly, but it's exhausting for me, like. And yeah, just as someone who appreciates some movement forward. Yeah, it's just exhausting. And so it's really lovely to have this beautiful model and restoration therapy where you can really feel the sense of empowerment that the client can feel when they get to that place of, you know, breakthrough. I remember the same.

I had a. I had a supervisor one time, and she was talking to me about the, like, therapy and kind of the statistics and the, like. She's like, you know, what people report as like, the number one thing for like, what made therapy effective was the relationship with her therapist. And. And then she then gave me this thing that's like, resonated in my head. She's like, so it's the relationship that keeps your client in the room, but it's the model that keeps you in the room.

And.

And that I think as therapists we having a structure, particularly a really good structure like restoration therapy, that. That really leans into an understanding of. Of. Of how we got here with the violations of love and trust and, and the way it manifests, but also tied in with, with the hope, you know, of freedom and the truth that there is something like. It doesn't have to be this way. That, that, that to me is one of the most beautiful things about restoration therapy. It doesn't have to be this way. We have another, that empowerment piece that you, that you're talking about, Megan. It's, it's so amazing that I, I've leaned into this pain my whole life, but now I'm giving a choice and I can stand up and I can walk into that. Whether I'm in a business meeting, whether I'm in a hard conversation with my wife, or I'm watching my daughter struggle, I have a choice on how I interact. If I lean into the truth and I walk out of that, that person I, I'm called to be, I, I think it's just that to me, is what keeps me in the room. I would, without restoration therapy, I think I would have retired, I would have quit. I've been like, oh, 100%. It's so lame. But no, we have good structure. Yeah, that gives us permission. You know, I would fall. I think I would have fallen for the trap. I would have fallen for the trap that I have good advice to give to people and that, that's what I'm gonna do. I think that without restoration therapy and it's. I think restoration therapy says no. Your advice means diddly squat right at the end of the day. Like, it's not about your advice. It's about what you're doing to free a soul and how you're interacting with, with the heart of your clients. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's my. What do you think, Rhett?

I was thinking I don't even have good advice to give most of the time.

Whatever, bro. Well, no, I'm like the humility now.

At 50, almost 51, I'm like, I think I'm in a better position with, you know, some, this side of life, with some of the things I've been through, to be in a place of maybe a little more wisdom. But I was thinking if you're listening to my 30 year old self give advice in the room. Yeah, maybe it's helpful at times. But yeah, if we're relying upon our own. I don't know. Yeah, just our own position in the room and, and that we are the beacon of wisdom that's going to impart this to the client, then yeah, I think that's a Not a good place to be. But yeah, when you can move people into a practice around the pain and peace cycle. You're right, Megan, it's doesn't. The therapist is no longer the. They're more of a collaborator in the process and not the magician who makes everything well.

And also from a Christian integrative, you know, lens, like secularism says, like self empowerment's the answer and you can be your healer. I mean, look at any pop culture. My first graders learned all about the K pop demon hunters on Netflix. And like the moral of that story, which, you know. Yeah. Is there's a satanic figure, but there is no God figure. There's no Jesus. And the. And really like the answer is just yourself and, and confronting shame and believing that even through your brokenness, you're still beautiful. And all of these elements are true. Like, there's so much truth in that. And yet like we're missing just the power of just the incarnate Christ, you know, like, like that's so important to recognize. Like by humbling himself, like our Lord and Savior, like he. He showed power by dying to. Like he died, you know, and then he was raised to life through. Yeah. Just the power of God in him. And now he offers life to all who would come, also all who would come to surrender to Him. He then gives us the place of power in our empowerment to mutually just surrender to. Just to him, you know. And so I just think that, I don't know, I just think there's this, there's this cultural message. I don't know if you all have seen in your therapy room, but I've certainly seen in mine where younger maybe like people, I mean, marriages. I was thinking about some people I'm counseling and it's it's just like, oh, if I just have enough, you know, willpower, I can move myself through this and become a better person and do the right thing. And Yes, I think you can to some extent. But then play that out like for you, rhett, you know, 20 years down the road from your 30 year old self and man, you're going to be burnout, you're going to be tired, you might have a chronic illness. Like there's just these things that, that. And you're ultimately going to fail. Like, you're going to fail at that. So again, I recognize this is my like Christian integrative stance, but I believe.

It'S not even a might. I did burn out and I did have a lot of issues. Like, there's no, like, okay, I don't know, I think that's why I've circled, you know, and this. Maybe we could talk about this too, because, Megan, I think we were talking about this on an email exchange is. I mean, I think I first entered the RT community in 2010, just V away the Hideaway, and then got trained with Terry. I knew him in 2010, but I didn't go to Fuller with him. That is, I graduated early. But in 2014, I did my first training with him, level one. But there was a long period after training where I was doing rt, but I was kind of doing it half heartedly and I was in my own practice and I was alone and I think I was relying on a lot of things. And after my life just kind of like fell apart, I had to reset a lot of things. And I think that reinvested me into the RT community. I'm like, I kind of don't want to be anywhere else but with these group of people who, one, who have walked me through difficult times. But two, I believe in the work that they're doing and stuff. And I remember, like, in one of our email exchanges when we're trying to get you in the podcast, you had. I think you. I got the sense from what you said you had kind of long for, like, I want to come back. I need to be a part of this community. It's important to. I feel like, disconnected from it. I want to get involved in some more things. I wasn't misreading that, right?

Not at all. No. No. And that's. Ultimately, that's. That's like, you know, I'm preaching to myself. I. When I thought about being on the podcast, it was like just checking in with, you know, the Holy Spirit in me. Like, word, like, what do you want me to talk about? Like, we could talk about a million different things. Because I'm so excited to like, be connected to the RT community again and to be more. Yeah. Just to be with y' all and honored to be on the podcast. But it really felt like just like the faithfulness of God and like remembering the faithfulness of God. Like, how prone I am to forgetting. Like, I am so, you know, so prone to forgetting. Yeah. And just being able to even, like, reflect on Psalm 100, 103, where, you know, have it out right here. But we're. The psalmist says, praise the Lord, O my soul, all my inmost being. Praise his holy name. Praise the Lord, O my soul and forget not all of his benefits, who forgives all of your sins and heals all of your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit and crowns you with love and compassion, who satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed like the Eagles. And ultimately, I found myself earlier this year in my own practice supervising some people I decided not to hire on associates I worked with. The coach did some things and was like, you know, I just feel tired having at the time a five and two year old and being the main parent. My husband works 45, 50 hours plus a week. And, and so some of the duties fall on me or hiring out nannies. And I was just exhausted of doing that for the past couple of years. And, well, I, I guess since my daughter was born and, and it really, I mean, I really hit this wall after getting pretty sick in February and just having low energy. Like, I was losing my hair a lot. Like, I just had a lot of health issues popping up again. And that kind of harkened back to my difficulty in getting pregnant. I've been through three miscarriages total, a couple surgeries. It's not been an easy journey by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think any pregnancy journey is. But I, Yeah, I really came to this place of, of just again needing to surrender again and feeling like I was holding on so tight to not surrender, right? Like, you know that feeling about, like, where it's just like, no, I know I'm doing the right thing. Like, I know I'm loved. I know I'm secure. Like, I'm, I'm empowered to move forward and I'm capable, you know, like, like trying to do my four steps. And I realized I. At this place of white knuckling it again. And I just like, couldn't believe I found myself here again, you know, And I was like, who am. I'm like a fraud. Like, I'm showing up to my counseling office, like, trying to help people get free and to live into, you know, their, their, their stronger, wiser self. And. And I am, am like running on fumes. And I think that, you know, they can tell. And so I just started telling clients, like, I'm sure you could tell I'm not doing very well. Like, like, it got to this point where I'm like, I can. I'm not gonna fake this. And again, Terry's been such an encourager in that I emailed him in April and backed out of doing another level one RT training. And, and again, feeling like a failure. Like, why can I not do this? Like, other people do all these other. Like, why can I Not do this. I feel like I already do less than other people. Why am I not able to even do this? So all of these self shame. You can hear the self shame narrative. That plays pretty good at it. And what.

You're very talented yourself.

Shame.

It's like, wow, you go there.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's. It's deep. It's deep. There's a whole story about that, but we'll get to that another time. But anyway, I'll just say, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. It was low and I was low. And I reached out. I think I reached out to you, Lance. And yeah, I think I came to a consult meeting. I mean, I was just like, man, I am, like, grasping at straws. Like, what do you do when you're. I think I'm really burn out. Like, I think I'm facing some. I was seeing some heavy clients. Like, I had some vicarious trauma there with client. You know, just all that. Like, it was a perfect storm of all these things. And ultimately I sat down with my husband and he's like, look, if you need to quit work tomorrow, you need to quit work tomorrow. You know, he was like, you can't. Like, we cannot keep functioning like this. You know, nothing like a great spouse to tell you, like, hold a mirror up to you to say, like, hey, I don't know if you see this, but you're not doing well. You've lost. Like, yeah, there was just Right. And I was like, dang, like, I'm here. And so I alerted my clients to a sabbatical I was going to take and started seeing another functional health practitioner because that's what's worked for me in the past. And I ultimately took seven weeks off of work, signed up for a Jesuit retreat center, a three day silent retreat. Got back into my own therapy, worked with an excellent somatic coach, not a therapist, which was kind of a funny journey for me, but it was. Someone connected me with her and it just was. It was like a divine intervention thing where it all kind of fell into place. And again, that's the Lord's faithfulness. I did not craft my treatment team together, but ultimately found out I was kind of just battling with some bacteria in my gi. Had to go through tons of supplements and just some functional, like, chiropractic work and started feeling a lot better. Went on the Jesuit retreat in July again, took off work, didn't see clients for a while, just rested, which felt very indulgent for me just to, like, not make an income for a little bit. I don't know if there's other moms out there that, you know, feel that way or. Yeah, it just felt very hard, honestly, for me just to give up this thing. I'd been building my private practice for seven years, which also felt really like a big, like, important number. Just scripturally seven and seven days of creation. On the seventh day, we rest. Like, I just felt there was just a lot of. A lot of. Yeah, there's a lot of processing I needed to do. I needed to do some reflecting and I just needed to heal again. And one of the things that was driving me crazy in my head was that I really wanted to have. I really wanted to have another child, but I didn't feel like I could. I felt like my health was in the gutter, you know, Like, I just felt like there's no way we can. Like I can finagle more nanny sharing with my kids. And now they're in two different schools. My daughter was in kindergarten. My son's in a preschool. There are different times, different hours. You pay a million dollars for a nanny these days, and then, you know, they quit on you after, you know, like, it's, it's just, there's. Yeah, that's a whole other traumatic.

Megan, you know what? Let me, Let me ask you something, Lance. Talking to Megan, it reminds me of this phrase that Terry says a lot, that we've been quoting back and forth a lot over the last. And I'm just wondering if you and I are in the same wavelength. What, what would he. What, what's the phrase you think he would say?

Terry?

Yeah, just the way that Megan is describing herself. And though, like in her pain cycle and everything.

I try to put on my Terry Noggin right now.

Yeah, well, she's. She's talking about failure and not enough. And then so she works harder and she builds this practice and she sees more clients and then messages and then she's level one RT training, but then she feels bad backing out of it and like. But yeah, I feel you're good with the, the Terry hat. That's why I'm asking you. Like, when you hear her talking, what do you hear him saying?

So this is where I was going to. I don't know if this is what you're thinking, but this is where I was thinking. Terry likes to quote a famous song that says, it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. And.

I was thinking a performance, a performance based identity.

Ah, no identity.

There's no identity at all.

100. Yeah.

And it's that centering. I think we're on the same vein. It's like if, if we're not leaning into the truth.

Right.

And I think you could probably talk about this with your own struggles that you, you've been through. And I certainly can too, where. I know. But I don't want to believe, I don't want to live in it if we're not slowing down our souls and, and leaning into like, I feel like we can even rapidly lean in, like say truths, but like we're not grounded in them. Like, I, I, I find myself doing that a lot so that, that it don't mean a thing if it ain't got the swing if I'm not grounded in it. That performance driven identity just takes us over.

Right? Well, yeah. And I didn't, I feel bad cutting you off, but I was like thinking there's three people on this call right now who are all.

You're feeling it. I'm giving everyone like a high blood pressure as I'm talking about.

The people are in the pain with you.

Yeah, we, I can, I can like feel that like we're, I, I know that I am, I know that Lance is.

Yeah.

You know, and I was thinking, which made me like, as you were talking about this, you know, we're big on interventions and I'm thinking it sounds like for you, one of the big interventions was like leaning into like this, your spiritual life. And the spiritual framework.

Absolutely.

Is really both.

It was like kind of biocycle, social, spiritual. Right. It was like, it's like I needed some medical care for sure. And then I also just needed. Yeah. Some just, you know, emotional, emotional care. I feel like I knew all the right things. Like, even when I was talking to my somatic coach, she's like, Megan, you know all the right things, like, you know it all. But your body and your nervous system does not know this. You are stuck in fight flight, you know, and then you're dipping down into just like you're freezing out and you're just going.

And what was the thing that for you when we were like, intervention wise?

What, what.

Yeah. What brought you in?

For you.

Yeah, for me, it was both. I mean, it was kind of the whole, it was the, it was certainly getting some good medical care, helping my body out, but it was also just really releasing just all of that pent up pressure that I had been feeling the past year, year and a half and being really triggered in this sense of like, I'm not good enough. Like, I'M not expanding my practice to a group practice. I'm not like doing more training with RT and I love like, I love this model and I want to do more.

I'm shame mechanism.

Yeah. And it was like all of this pressure that been building and I look around at my friend group and everyone's having more kids but I'm like, I was literally like almost having a panic attack at one of my friends baby showers that I was hosting. Like it was just, it was just so much like just self shame and just pressure that I was like putting on myself. No one else. I don't believe anyone else was putting that on me. I think that it was all just this self inflicted, like, oh, here's an example of how I'm not good enough. Oh, here's another one. Oh, and then a few months later, here's yet another one. Right. And so it's just like all of that was playing out for me in my kind of storyline and ultimately it just, it was like my body gave up. Like it was like, we can't keep doing this. And so, so then really grasping onto real spiritual truths from just scripture and just really like confessing. It's like confession, repentance and transformation. Like I need to confess that I am like living out of this narrative that is hurting me and it's not from God. Like where did I learn this? Where did I get this from? And so then I'm digging back into my childhood a little bit and it's like, oh, like six year old Megan, you know, like she feels like a lot of pressure. I was a swimmer, I played water polo actually. So I know it's a big, big sport out in California. We go out and train in California, the summers in high school. But you know, it's like these old narratives were coming up and it was ultimately just. Yeah, I felt like it was just.

During your sacrifice, during your Sabbath.

Well, yeah, Sabbath. It was just, I felt like it really was this holy calling of I don't want to make it over spiritual. But it really felt like this sacrifice of praise. Like Lord, I'm giving you this real sacrifice and I'm trusting that you're going to heal me in this. And I'm gonna just rest and I'm gonna just take care of myself and I'm gonna allow myself to feel indulgent in like genuinely just like resting and doing nothing.

And for a moment, for you in.

That place, the word, the truth words. Yeah, I mean it really is that. It really was like I'm not, it's just that I'm loved and I'm not a failure. Like, it was. I'm not a failure. I am. I. And I really was saying to myself, like, I am a success in God's eyes because, like, he made me. Not because of anything I've done, not because of anything I will do or have. Have done or whatever. But I'm just. Yeah, really, quite frankly, I remember sitting in my bathroom, as we do in the mirror, doing our four steps, and just realizing I was struggling with failure and really feeling like. Like God just loves me. And so being led into the. Yeah. Henry Nouwen, what are you pulling up here? Whoa. I knew it was a Henry Nouwen book. I just.

I know I can't. I don't know where else to go. But, like, that idea, like, you are my son, you are my daughter, whom I love. With you, I'm well pleased with.

Yep.

Right. And now. And I think and others before him make the point, like, before Jesus does anything, any miracles, any healing, nothing.

Right.

He's just a backwoods carpenter. He hears the truth from his father that you are my son and you're my daughter and I love you. And because Satan tempts him to do out, to go out and perform.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

And whether we like it or not, I think a lot of RT people just, maybe people listen to the podcast and end up at retreats and trainings are probably pretty high. Driver type personality, go getter achiever type personality, people performance. I think that's a fair assessment. Right, Lance?

I mean, yes, they're.

They're like running.

I agree with that.

Okay.

Lance knows nothing of what that would be like, but he.

So my point, Megan, is, I think what you're saying, I think hits home to a lot of people. And it's. I think it's important. Like, I like the fact that you just took a reset and.

Yeah, maybe not everybody can go away.

For seven weeks or do a retreat, but there are ways that we can dive into spirit spiritual practices and lean into the truth and really practice letting go of things.

Absolutely. And. And again, it was like the seven weeks. And that was pretty intense. I wasn't even going to take off that long. And then it became. I was. I just needed to take longer. And. And so it worked out with kind of the calendar and some other things. But at the Jesuit Retreat center, this. It's called the Ignatius House in Sandy Springs. It's pretty hidden on the road. It's off of kind of a big road that people wouldn't I mean, it's purposely off into the Chattahoochee. On the Chattahoochee forest and the. There's a river that runs through Atlanta.

It looks pretty, by the way.

I'm not gonna sing the song. I'm not gonna do it. I could tell.

Because you're originally a Southerner, right, Lance? Oh, yeah, yeah. See, I'm from the. The southernmost northern place, Orlando, Florida. So I wasn't a Southerner. But now since I've been In Atlanta, since 2011, I've been indoctrinated into saying y' all and to being on the Chattahoochee. You know, it's just a whole other world. But we're on this beautiful chapel that's all glass windows looking out into the forest, July peak. I mean, just beautiful, all the beautiful trees out there. And it's a Catholic retreat, so Jesuits are Catholic, and they welcome all people of all faith backgrounds, whoever wants to come. And the retreat that I signed up for was on a liberating spirit. And I knew that I. I wasn't living in, you know, the. The J. Haley and the stronger, wiser self question of, like, when. When therapy's done, you know, what's your cured self? What. What do you want to be? What do you want to be true about you? And my answer to that as an enneagram, too, is always free. I want to be free. Like I'm. I want to experience just freedom. Got nothing to hide, nothing to prove. I know I'm good. I know I'm safe. Like, I'm free, right? And so it was this beautiful retreat that had three days. Silence was over the feast of St. Ignatius. So the first night, there was, like, wine and cheese and just this great feast. The food is phenomenal there, which I was not expecting. The quarters where you live is literally has not been renovated since 1960. They're doing a big campaign now to renovate them. So it was a shoebox, but the bed was comfy. And I just slept a lot and went to three talks a day. You don't have to go to that. They have mass every day. I don't come from the Catholic tradition, but it was just beautiful. And truly, at the end of the retreat, I was reading back at my journal, and I just wrote, like, God just loves me. Like, that was my takeaway. That, like, God just. Just delights in me, like, and. And again, I'm cognizant of, like, in our culture today, like, self care and self love is, like, such the thing. But there's to me, it just hits different when, like, you genuinely recognize, like, the God of the universe who could, like, crush you in an instant, actually chose to die for you instead and to give you life again and again and again and again. Like, I just feel like I'm just this wayward kid who just keeps running away from the truth and God keeps, like, allowing me to somehow come back to Him. I don't know. Like, I don't know how that works, but, like, what I know to be true and the fiber of my being is that, like, God loves me. He loves you. He loves every person. And Ignatius was really big on experiential prayer and really imagining, you know, imagine yourself in the scriptures. So we had some beautiful movements and prayer practices to practice throughout the weekend. And it was just so freeing just to picture God with you walking through some of your fiery furnace moments, you know, and. And just seeing how he's just there with you. He's faithful and he doesn't leave you alone, but, like, he allows you the. The dignity of choice to decide if you're gonna surrender to that or not, you know? And that's so beautiful and so freeing to me. Like, he's not forcing me. Like, the God of the universe isn't forcing me to surrender, forcing me to give up my practice or anything like that. Forcing me to. Yeah. Get pregnant or be better. Like, I don't think there's a lot. Yeah, I think there's a lot of wiggle room and all of that, all those choices. But ultimately it's like he longs for me to be with him and to be in relationship with him, and I experience freedom as I am in relationship with Him. Does that make sense? I don't know if I'm making sense.

But I think you're. You're naming that piece that of, you know, I think it's probably where we've been in our. In our dark, dark nights of the soul, of that. That moment of kind of realizing at our ends there is a God who is greater than all of our malad. Maladilies, maladies, whatever that word is.

Yeah.

A God that is greater than all of our sin. A God that is greater than. And there's a beckoning of an open hand or an arm around us that says that we're loved. And I think even in my own journey of dealing with some really hard losses along the way, I just have found that hand of God that has touched the soul, touched my soul, and reminded me that it's not about my work. It's it's the work that he does through me. And as, as we get to lean in that we get to do this work together with him, there's this amazing freedom that we get that we can submit to of like being co builders, co journeyers on the, on people's healing pathways. What do you think, Rhett?

My first thought I was gonna make a suggestion, but then it put us all back on our performance based identity. I was like, Megan, you could write a we, we need a little like integrative book on spirituality and Ignatian practices with rts.

I was like, I can't say it.

Out loud because then Megan will be off writing it and you know, looking for a publisher.

Real right. Like I do. I would love to write one day, I'd love to do all these things. But, but I was gonna say the other truth in RT is that like I'm not alone, you know, like in my pain cycle and I'm a peace cycle. You know, there's been areas in my story, childhood divorce, some trauma in college, different things where it's like I really had that terrible experience where we all know feeling alone is the worst. And I think at that retreat, being amongst others, even in silence, but just knowing that we were all there seeking something liberating was very freeing. Just to without words, know that I'm not alone. There's other people here doing some work and I'm in nature and God created this beautiful world and made delicious food and yeah, so I know we need to get off soon, but to end that and to wrap that up, during the retreat I really, I met with a couple. I met with the spiritual director and one of the priests there and was just kind of processing this. Yeah. Just feeling kind of not sure about trying, you know, going after, trying to conceive again and was just feeling a lot of just tension around that. And one of the offerings was to imagine a field of flowers and just knowing that like they're all beautiful, they're all different, but they're all beautiful. And so just notice how you feel as you choose one flower and it's trying to conceive or as you choose another one and it's, you know, your family as is with a three and six year old and your husband and your practice and your life, you know, and so just kind of was like having you imagine that and it was so beautiful to just take the pressure off and to just be in my body and almost do like a body scan and see how my body felt and did I feel light or flow free when I thought of this one option versus this option. And ultimately it led me to this, like, pretty strong desire to enter back into the battle zone to try to, like, conceive again and like, back into the experience of potential miscarriage and loss or back into the experience of potential surgery or whatever it would be. Right. But also the potential for hope and new life. And I am just so, like, humbled and honored just to. Yeah. Kind of announce that we're 15 weeks pregnant with a really healthy baby boy, Lord willing, be born at the end of April of 2026. And again, there's a lot that can happen between 15 weeks and 40 weeks or 41 weeks in most of my cases with my viable children that are here Earthside. But. But yeah, I just think I'm just drawn back to this place of, like, again after this summer, after going through another dark night and meeting God for who God is. Just as this freeing, beautiful, kind, like God. I'm just like, oh, like, wow. I don't have to hold it all together and I'm not alone and I'm loved as I am. And yeah, so I'm just on. I'm on the journey. And so we'll see when I. Thank you. Yeah.

I was gonna say you should name a flower name, but since a boy might not work so well.

Yeah, you know, I think we're gonna.

Yeah, no, go ahead.

I think we're gonna name him Wesley. It means has roots in like, a western meadow. So. Yeah. So similar to the. To flower.

But yeah, lots of flowers in a meadow.

Yeah. Yeah.

I should say it's. Yeah. And I'll close it with this. But I think we've all experienced it sounds like not only just when you're at the bottom of your rope, at the end of the end, God has met us there. And I think that's what I love about the RT community, too, is that God has put tangible people in our lives that are part of this community who show up in those dark times, you know, And I think I just want to encourage people who are listening who aren't a part of. Doesn't have to be the RT community, even though we're promoting, like, if.

Find a place to connect, try it out. Like, at least try out a place.

To connect and get involved and to experience, I think, the grace of God in the midst of, you know, the work that we're doing. And it's a good journey. Megan, I'm going to. We'll put your website and email address and everything on the show notes. People can reach out to you, it sounds like. Maybe get this Atlanta based group up and going.

Yeah, be fun.

And if there's anything else, shoot me a message and I'll put that in the show notes for you. Sound good?

Sounds great.

Thanks for coming on. Well, we'll have you on. There's a lot more to talk about.

For sure.

Yeah, I would love that. But. See you guys so much.

Cheers.

Bye.

Bye.