Season 1 | Episode 43 | Lance and Rhett on the Core Concepts of RT

Foreign. What's up, bro? Rhett. It's been forever, bro.

Episode 43.

Is this. Is this 43?

Yeah, we're.

That's good.

Making our way to 50 by the end of the year here.

Did I mark Jackie Robinson live for everyone last time?

I think I forgot it. Off. Off, Pod.

I really wanted to have a Jackie Robinson moment for 42. I'm not a big Dodger fan, but dag on it. That guy was good.

Yeah, I. You know when you go to Fuller Main campus and you walk over off of Los Robles there behind the All Saints Church, and what's that building there? There's the Jackie. There's a memorial. The statues of him and his brother there. It's really awesome.

Yeah, bro. Love it.

Pasadena natives love it.

It's. What is. Is he. I think you're right.

Yeah. Yeah. Right over there, there's like a. It's like a brass, I think, bronze statue. Someone will correct me, but I. I remember a lot of times I don't. I walk around over there when I was a student. So we got a few announcements. Well, first of all, if you're listening to this podcast, Please subscribe on YouTube or Spotify or Apple or all of them. And leave us.

Subscribe everywhere.

Leave us a good review. And if it's not a good review, then just tell us why in the. The comments there.

Yeah. You know, I imagine last episode when we talked about psychedelics, there's some people that were like, kind of like me. We were like, whoa. That was not expecting that moment.

It was such a good episode, though.

It was so good.

I. Ryan really motivated me. I called a few friends afterwards. Kind of reignited my.

In. Not.

Not interest. I've always been interested, but, like, passion for, like, how do we get men. Go deeper into the men's work. And I. In outdoors stuff. I have a few friends exploring outdoor wilderness ventures right now and teaming up with some people who are doing that around the country right now.

Dude, I was watching this report on the news the other night, and they're just talking about just how men are just lit. Like, there's most men. Like, they're. They're not engaging anymore. They're kind of just staying at home playing video games or trying to stop trade stocks, and they're not really engaging in society anymore. And just. It's really sad. Like, men that don't have friends.

Yeah.

Like, trying it. Like, we. We got to do something, man.

There was that study. I'm gonna. I'm gonna botch it. I can look it up here. Put it in the show notes. But it came out like two weeks ago. They were talking about again, the, the numbers are off. But it was something like men, men ages, you know, like let's call it teenagers up to like 21, like a huge percentage. It's like 80% have never asked a girl out on a date. And. Yes, and what they were talking about was how men lack some of the just basic tools or skills to know how to navigate life that a generation earlier had. And yeah, I work with a lot of college kids right now and a lot more on video because they're away at school and just doing therapy or I guess since it's across state lines, I'm doing with my coaching certification instead.

Yes, coaching. Yes.

I, we haven't signed that paperwork and a lot, just a lot of them spend all day in the dorm playing video games or in virtual worlds and go to lunch with headphones on and don't dialogue with anybody or talk to anybody. And it's, man, it's, it's really hard. We're, we're missing passages, rites of passage or basic things, you know. And I know women like obviously have their own issues over the struggles over the years for their own, their own things. But you and I obviously both being male, we work with a lot of males. And so I've been thinking about that a lot, a lot recently.

Yeah, yeah. I've been really caught up in the plight of women and how it's been really horrible for them for like, you know, let's just say forever and. But yeah, I do. There, there, there is this element of, of where, you know, we need to help our, help our guys to come in and be more present in society. It's, it's crazy. Well, let's talk announcements.

I don't want to get, you know, I'm sorry, we're getting off to target. I know, man.

It's like you and I, we get together. Yeah.

We'll come back to this another time. Okay. So you have announcement, our buddy.

We want people to subscribe.

Is it.

Why do we want people to subscribe?

Subscribe is. If you subscribe, it just, it's easier for people to find the podcast and you know. Yeah, word of mouth is great, but subscribing is great. You can also subscribe to our sub stack which is just RT Dialogue substack and people are like, what is substack? Picture it almost like a modern day blog. But we, we have, we house all of our podcast episodes on the RT Dialogue substack and a couple of articles that you and I have written for the substack. And we have, I think here, coming up pretty soon, another person. I won't say their name yet because.

They have to say their names so they feel pressured.

Oh, Corey Page, you're. You're on, Corey.

Thanks, Corey.

Articles that you want to write. So Corey Page will have some articles on the substack here eventually and others as well. So subscribe to the substack. We try to post something once a week, maybe twice a week if we have extra material. Our buddy Ron Dill's got a training. You want to mention that?

Yeah. You know, I was really impressed by Ron. That guy can teach like no other. He's. He's got, like, example. He's got flow. His slides are incredible. Yeah. Like, you know, like the slides where he's like, this is this family, this family, this family. It's amazing. Well, he's got an online training coming up December 18th through the 19th for people that work with step families. One of my teammates is going, I think there's still space left. I would definitely recommend going. Ron deals our people and that. You know, I was just watching a video today. Like, you know, when you look at Ron, Ron makes the argument that the traditional family is the new non traditional. Like, non traditional families is actually the new what we have today, like, where there's blended families of all sorts. So it's something that if you're not really dialed in on, on how to work with blended families, I would really recommend Ron's step. Blended family. Step family. Check it out. It'll be in the show notes.

Yeah. Ron, you're the man. Ron's presentation at the summit was the first time I realized I grew up in a blended. Had no idea.

And how old were you when you found that out?

50. Yeah.

See, it's never too late.

Yeah. Because I grew up in a family where my mom passed away and I didn't think there was. I always thought of blended families as coming through kind of through divorce or death, of course. But, like, there's other kids involved. And I grew up in a family after my mom died where there was just my brother and I and my dad got remarried. And then Ron, his slides are all over the place. And I'm like, I think I texted all of you. I'm like, I grew up in a blended family. I had no idea. And I wasn't the only one, by the way, who was a therapist there who was also my age, who realized that for the first Time.

So, yeah, their parents remarried late in life and they're like, oh, I'm an employee. Family. Yeah.

Yeah. So there's that. We got Ron Deal's training coming up. Do you want to say anything about.

Level one level on trainings? I know Jason's got one happening up in Portland. The Portland area.

Yeah. January 9th and 10th in Portland, Oregon, Jason Wilkinson and then our good Buddy Michael Cox. 23rd and 24th in person in Austin, Texas.

Dude. So good.

And we won't go the whole year, but we'll go one more out. Actually two out. We'll go February, February 20th or 21st. Terry, it's got the online Zoom training.

Nice.

And then in March, Eric Solon is doing one in Dallas. So pretty pumped about that.

Dude. All I can say is Texas is going to get some restoration happening. Yeah, it's about time.

Texas. And also, let's just say level two trainings. Stephanie, it's got level two December 4th and 5th on online Zoom, which is coming up quick.

I think that one's full already.

Okay.

You can call. Actually, we do get last minute dropouts. If you ever want to do level two, Stephanie and I are the ones that do it. So definitely email Megan Lundgren about that. If you want to do level two. Do you want to say the other day, I think I have one coming up in January, Is that right?

Yeah. Lance, yours. January 30th, 31st is an online Zoom level two as well, correct?

That's right. And make sure if you do it, you have to show video because we're going to try and take you to the next level. I'm finishing up a level two training with Terry this weekend here. So I feel like everyone that's in my group, like, they're, they're all like, they love Restoration therapy and they're growing in Restoration Therapy. There's so much nuance in RT that level two really helps you to pick that up on how to make it in. In in vivo, as they might say.

Yeah. Also we should give a shout out to an upcoming restoration coaching training with Megan that is January 23rd through 24th, and that will be online Zoom. And our good buddy Ro, who does the sound for this podcast, did that with Megan and was blown away by that training.

Yeah. And, and that's really good for like those of you that aren't licensed, but really like Restoration Therapy, this is a great place to really dive in and really feel find some accreditation and, and some in a community to really connect with on how to apply restoration therapy in a Coaching setting. So, yeah. Awesome. What are we doing today, Rhett?

We.

We've already figured out men or talked about the plight of men.

Yeah. I thought what we would do is. Because, you know, I don't know if everybody is clear sometimes, we wanted to talk about what's. What are the core tenets, essentially, of restoration therapy. And it came up because you and I are at a retreat and, you know, lots of amazing people and we're all practicing rt, but you can kind of. We can go in different directions sometimes and develop our own stuff out of it, and we can get away from maybe what some of the core tenets are. And I don't want to speak for Terry. Terry obviously allows a lot of creativity and for people to use his model and a lot of cool ways, but we just wanted to come back to a conversation of, like, here's what the cores. Here's. When you think about rt, here's what RT is essentially. Right.

And there's RT adjacent. But we're going to focus on what is RT today.

Yeah. And we're going to go through each one and just kind of highlight them and talk about them for a few minutes. And then, you know, hopefully that will be helpful for all of you who have either been practicing RT for a long time or new to it. Because I'm 15 years into it and I'm still learning a ton. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, that's. That's right. That's the core. Because I can get away from it, too, or I can add things. Yeah. It's like a myth over time that kind of expands, and then you kind of forget what the origin story is.

Yeah. The foundational pieces, you're like, oh, that's still there.

Yeah.

And it still matters a lot. It really holds up the house.

So why don't you read off the list first of when we think of rt. And this list came straight from Terry. Terry put it on a board. Yeah. So straight from the founders.

It wasn't on tablet. It wasn't on stone tablets, though.

It was not in stone tablets. It was on a screen. And so read what he put up on that list.

Okay, so this is what we got. Number one is emotional regulation. That's where we. It's really important in RT that we are emotionally regulated.

And.

And specifically, the way that we regulate is not through other, but through self. Okay. Self versus co regulation. Okay.

Which Ron Deal and Terry and Sharon and Nan hit pretty heavy in the mindful marriage. So we'll come back to that. But brilliant. When you think about rt, you're thinking about emotional self regulation, not co regulation.

Come on, somebody. When we have human. Human identity and safety, these are like. When we look at the core of humanity, like this is like the huge philosophical piece that we look at with restoration therapy is that when you look at the. The. The core basic needs of all human beings, they go back to two places. Right. One is who we are and then the other is our environments that are around us and how we deal with them. Right. So that's human identity and safety, which.

Is essentially in our model. Love and trust. Love and trust, yeah.

We almost had that, like on the.

Yeah, next one.

Then we have. So what does this look like? So we've contextualized this thing in a lovely model which everybody has seen. There's the pain chart and the piece chart. Okay, do you want to talk about. Do we'll go deeper into these.

Yeah, yeah. Because I've actually over the years have seen different versions that people have mocked up, and I think there's a way that we're currently doing them that is recommended when we think about pain chart and piece.

Well, the pain chart and the piece chart. Yeah. The cycles are different for sure.

Yeah, sorry. Yeah. And then the other piece, core piece is the pain cycle. So our primary emotion to reactive emotion. Right, that. That pain cycle piece. Yeah.

Your bad behavior comes from somewhere and there's this really important part attached to it, which is how others react.

Yep.

So, yeah, peace cycle, which is that. That new primary emotion which is founded in truth, leads to better choices of actions or virtues.

Yep. And then four steps. So say what you feel, say what you normally do, say your truth, do the action, essentially.

Yeah. Four steps is our. That's our mindfulness practice.

Yep.

With restoration therapy. This is the. This is our go to mindfulness piece that if, like, if you want one thing to get yourself out of. Out of jail, use. Use the four steps. I don't know why I said. Yeah. The jail of your own prison that you put yourself in.

There it is. Okay. And then the other component, which is a big one. And I got this sense that there. I got the sense listening to conversations, that Terry's still working on this, I think, in many ways and expanding it or thinking through it.

Yeah, yeah. I think this is forgiveness. And, you know, this is probably. I got to do a group with Corey back in the day on forgiveness and I think we could probably spend a whole episode on like, few episodes. We have done a little bit, but.

Yeah.

And the core part with forgiveness, that that we see is these stations. Do you want to name the stations for everybody? Yeah.

There is under. There's two categories, really. There is salvage and restoration. Under the salvage piece is insight and understanding. Right. That part of doing forgiveness is doing the work of salvage and gaining insight and understanding to. Let's just call it like. Like the violations. What went wrong, how do we get to this place?

Yeah.

The second piece is restoration. And there's. In that category, there's opportunity for compensation and then overt forgiveness. And I've heard opportunity for conversation explained different ways, but in a sense, it's. Once we understand and have insight into what we've done wrong, how we've hurt someone, we look for opportunity to compensate, to put back, to rebuild, to gain trust, to do things differently. And as we move through those, we get to a place of deeper forgiveness, overt forgiveness. And so those are the four stations. You want to say anything different about that?

Yeah, I think you named them perfectly. You know, salvage is like, if you can't. If this is an unsafe person, you can go there. There's also value, if they are a safe person, to kind of spend time there anyways.

Yeah.

So stations are, you know, they're just places that you can go to. I. The. The cool part about what Terry did with the stations is there is no order, like, in. Like, how you're supposed to go about it. So you just figure out what. What helps you most. And, you know, one thing that Terry didn't list here, and I. I'm gonna list it. I'm gonna. I'm gonna venture. Okay, please don't. I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but the concept of us. Does she think that should be on the list?

I mean, we talk about a lot. He's written about it, it's mentioned. So, yeah, we. I mean, we'll. Yeah. Terry, what do you think? If you're listening, we'll have to have him on to talk through this. But you. But you believe, like, when you think about restoration therapy, us. Usness being a core component of that.

I. I would say yes. I think. I think it matters a lot.

And then the other one that's not in the list, but he did say it probably will be on the list eventually, is that we are working through the stop, turn, slow intervention. And so that's a big piece. And one of the beautiful things about the RT model that he said is it's an integratable model. So. Yeah.

What does that mean, Rhett?

Well, I can integrate my faith into the practice of RT and, and we've talked about, there's lots of language around that and how we do that, how we think about the old self and the new self, how we think about truth, how we think about receiving truth from God or others or self. And then the beauty of it too, the fact that it's integrable means that you can be working with clients who would consider themselves agnostic or atheists or don't come from a faith. And we can use the model as I think as well with anybody who walks in our door. Right?

Yeah. This is the gift that it's, you know, true. Like the, the model is, stands on its own, you know, and to me, like, you know, you and I both have, you know, this deep core faith within us. So I think there's this element where it marries so well with scripture. Like, and I think that's, that's, that integration is like, it can work, it works so good when it's in the, in the zone. But it's also something that like, it doesn't have to have that, like for if you have that agnostic or that person coming in the room. So I think that is, you know, I love how Terry, what did Terry say in he, he made like a big claim.

Do you remember you say I could be wrong.

I, I, he, he basically said it's the best, most integratable model out there.

Yeah.

So I was like, game on, Terry. Love it.

Well, you know, one of the reasons I went to Fuller is because I could have gone to like a school that let's say is just agnostic in practice. Right. In terms of like psychological models. And I kind of, I could have gone to like a school that was just, is only like from a Christian perspective and that's it. And that's all the way you see therapy and there's practice models out there and schools out there. The thing I loved about Fuller is like we had this specific class that was separately that was about integration because they knew that when we go into our practicums in the, in the community that we work with all kinds of clients. And in fact a lot of the places that we went to work at our practicums did not want us speaking of faith stuff, but they respected the Fuller students. I remember when I was there, one of the practicum leaders at the place I was at said we always get students from Fuller with like some of the best work ethic and morals and values and we just love having them in our practice, you know, so it was up to us to do the work of integration, I guess, is what I want to say. Here are the models. You, as the therapist, do the work of integrating.

Yes.

Where and where you see fit. And that's what makes therapy also an art and not just a science, is that we have to kind of be discerning in the room.

Yeah. And I think it's good to note here, too, that Fuller is not the only school that talks about restoration therapy. You know, we have. We have lots of really cool people that are out there. We, you know, Richard Shaw is a great guy. George Fox, you know, Eric Solwin's great guy.

Theological.

Theological. We got Dave Morgan down over at Lipscomb University.

Mike Bishop.

Oh, Mike Bishop, our boy.

Texas Wesleyan University. TWU up in North Texas.

Yeah, I have, like, a whole list. I think there's, like, at least eight people, like, or eight schools that I know of right off the bat that are all talking about restoration therapy. So.

Yeah. And we're going to find out in January. We have some guests coming on who are using RT in other ways, not as therapists, but even in, like, communications theory and stuff. So.

That's cool.

Yeah, it's really cool. So those are the core tenets. And I thought what we would do is just kind of camp on each of them just a few more minutes and kind of dive in deeper to them and see if we can talk about them in a way that's helpful for the listener. So. Yeah, let's just start with emotional regulation versus co. Regulation.

Yeah. Well, you know, so when you look at the. Like, you know, Terry has this model, like, where he has, like, the three things that we do in restoration therapy, like the three. Three influencers. One of them is on. Is on emotional regulation. Right. And then the other two. The other two are attachment and mindfulness. Right. Um, Emotional regulation gets its own. Like. Like, we really care about this. Like, this is something that's really important to us. And I love it. I love the idea behind emotional regulation. Like, when Terry talks about it, it's just like. It's kind of frustrating, but it's beautiful at the same time where he says, you know, you know, you're. You're probably. You're a good person. Right. Everybody's a good person. Right. Except for when you're not. And the issue is that, you know, some people are just tend to be a little bit more emotionally dysregulated than regulated. So, yeah, I think this is. This is definitely one of our core principles.

And we. You and I first talked about it in Episode eight of this podcast and then we went deep with ron in episode 36.

Yeah.

And Ron's got the beautiful like indepth scuba.

Oh man. You know, I, he. When we were, we saw him this last weekend or a few weekends ago and when he. The thing that Ron needs is a, a pitcher. When you get the pictures of it, it like it, it goes, it's, it's, it really like. Yes. I don't want to be the guy that's sucking off my buddy's tank and, and enjoying the, the great under underwater. Like I want to be the person that has my own tank and I can enjoy the great underwater with that person.

Yeah. When he's on, when he's talking about co regulation, I think what you're referring to in the room, he's got this image behind him of people scuba diving, but one of the partners doesn't have any oxygen in their tank or ran out of tank or didn't have it. And so they're having to share that oxygen. And then he's got another image of people like scuba diving, but they're both, they're both taking oxygen from their own tanks and there's a beautiful scenery and stuff. And so it's a powerful image.

Yes, yes.

And, and why do you think this is so important today in our culture? What, why is, why are we talking of. Why is emotional self regulation so important, you think, to our model?

Why I think it's important. I mean number one, it's, it's core to a lot of like marriage stuff that's out there is really dependent on other.

Right.

So which brings people just to like, you know, Gottman and Eft, like it's, it's very much like learning how to accept the other person and just put up with them and like, or like waiting for them to regulate you.

Right.

And you know, the, the thing that I love about restoration therapy is that when we can learn about what's going on inside of us and regulate ourselves, I think it gives, it gives a much better chance for success.

Yeah. And so what you're, I mean what you're saying in many ways is like the emotional self regulation piece of RT differentiates us from a lot of model. Probably most models out there in the psychological world and specifically in the Christian self help marriage books you read and stuff. A lot more built on co writing her needs. There's a lot. All right.

If that person's listening, it's just, it's been used very improperly over the years.

Yeah, Yeah. A lot of people Come to my office and talk. They're reading a book and they're like, well, she's just supposed to do these things for me. Or he is. And, and you, then you, you know, when you hear that, you're like, okay, this couple's co regulating. And the reality is it's not that we don't ever co regulate or we fall into that. We're, we, we move up and down the spectrum, if you can imagine, between emotional and coagulation, a lot of. And there are times, and they say this in the mindful marriage when we, you know, we are in a position that we need to come alongside somebody and help them. Right, Right. But that's not a position we want to live in in our marriage. And they make the distinction that being in a co regulating relationship is a parenting relationship.

Yeah.

And you don't want to parent your partner intimacy. Yeah. We want to be in a partnering relationship. So this is why the emotional self regulation piece is so critical. Let's, let's move to. And you know, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but human identity and safety. And I think what I always say, and I'm doing a presentation tomorrow to some leaders, but is that our brain is wired around this idea. Is this a loving relationship? Right. And is this a safe relationship? So that identity piece and that safety piece or trusting relationship. Trusting relationship. And no one grows up in perfect homes. No one has perfect experiences. So all of us have experienced violations to our identity and safety, to our love and trust.

Yeah.

And, and so we want to understand those. Correct.

Yeah. Yeah, let's. How about we just name really quickly the three elements underneath love and trustworthiness. We don't have to go into detail with them, just name them. When you're working with clients.

Yeah, you do that because I think you did it more accurately because I was member reading through your thesis recently and I think you did a good job of that.

Oh, stop it.

Yeah, I'm just serious.

Yeah. So I think the, the love piece is absolutely, you know, that's where we understand who we are. Right. What was given to us growing up. And you know, the three components of, of love. Speak to one. Is this sacrificial love. That's really important. Like the Christian word would be like or the, the Greek word would be agape. But this is the sense of worth that we have inherent worth as we come into this world, that, that we don't have to earn our worth. You know where Terry talks about performance driven identity is no identity at all. We need to know that we have worth from the get go. Next, we have companionate love. This is where we identify ourselves in relationship to one another, in this sense of belonging. Right. That is so important to belong and be a part we, you know, it's going back to the men conversation. Like, you know, men just don't feel like they belong anymore apparently, or they've lost that ability to learn how to belong. They've kind of fallen for prey to these other things that are false imitations. And then finally we have with identity is this sense of unique, being unique or that your desire that you're special and each of us possesses something special inside of us.

Would you say, would you use the word unique in special in session, or would you use something of like. Because I also hear that you're like. Because you're unique. Like you're wanted for who you are or I don't know, desired.

Yeah, yeah, I, I think they both fit. You know, that, that there's something, you know, inside of each human being that we have. There is commonality, but then there is this inherent difference that we each have which makes us special.

So if you're in session today with a client, the three words you'll use are around identity, worth.

Belonging. Unique.

Unique. Okay.

I think desired fit like because that's fileto as well. Like where you have that belonging. Like you're desired, you're part of. So I think the differentiator with the special helps.

Personally, you're kind of riffing off C.S. lewis, right? And the, the three loves there.

Yeah, you got. Man, Rhett, I love it. Rhett, you know my lexicon, bro.

Okay. And safety. The trust piece.

Yeah, safety. This one, you know, this is kind of the grand idea that starts it all is because we come from Bozer Mini Naj's contextual therapy. So the first thing we talk about is the balance of love and. Or, excuse me, the balance of give and take. You know, is is there a sense of fairness or justice in relationship and the next thing in relationship. So when we're looking at trustworthiness, this is about how we interact with the other, right? So we have the balance of give and take. Next we have this sense of predictability that there is follow through that we know what's going to happen when they say it's going to happen. It is predictable. We are looking at a rate of, you know, Terry's said all numbers between 85 to 90 to 95% of being predictable. Predictability is just this sense of. It gives us peace and kills this like, you know, this sense of feeling not safe when you know what's going to happen. And then finally we have this sense of openness that we're able to be real with one another that's, you know. You know, in relationship, when we're able to be vulnerable with one another, that's like one of the biggest bonding pieces, you know, like when we open up our hearts and stuff. So.

Yeah. So the balance and give and take. We might use words like fairness or justice and then predictability. And then.

Yeah, yeah. The predictability one.

You.

This is like a lot of couples or individuals that come in the room, they're like, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells, you know?

Yeah.

That's like the classic. Or like, I'm, you know, it's overwhelming, you know, type stuff going on.

Yeah, Yeah. I. You know, I will say this when I'm with a. Let's just say, like a new client or a new couple, and I have this whiteboard behind me, and I'll get up sometimes and just to kind of help, depending where we are in session, but I'll put up kind of a. A T chart graph with identity and love on one side. Yeah. And. And safety and trust the other and identify those things and talk about how we're wired around those. And it's amazing when people see that, they're like all these lights inside their brain start going off. Oh, I didn't feel safe growing up.

Yeah.

I didn't feel a sense of worth growing up. And it just. It makes sense to people. Like. Oh, it's like the lights come on, which makes it an easy segue to get into the pain cycle or the pain chart. The pain chart. Yeah. Up on the board to do that. To look at the pain chart.

Yeah.

Start graphing that because you can see where the violations come in. Yeah.

The minute you talk about what's good, you. I even did it. Even talking about it from the. The top level of, like, you know, in talking about what's good, we instantly think about what's not good.

Right. So this. Just because you. You corrected me there a second ago. How would you distinguish pain chart and pain cycle?

So the pain chart would be. That's kind of our. That's the therapist thing that they're using primarily. Like, the therapist is thinking from the. The pain chart.

Yep. That's.

That's the global kind of philosophical idea of how we are. That's the theoretical application piece that we're looking at and understanding our clients. Sometimes we are transparent. We show that to our clients where they can see it's kind of like what you're talking about. So the pain chart would have the love and trust. Then it goes down, has the next section where it says violations, then it says pain. Then it has the four coping strategies that we talk about.

Blame, shame, control, escape, chaos.

Right. And then the pain cycle. The cycle is. That's their mindfulness tool.

Right.

So that's where we understand the pieces that has the, you know, feels, copes, others react box for the pain cycle. That's where you kind of identify that with your client. And then the peace cycle is the other part of the mindfulness tool where it has the truth, new action, and others react. So people can see that part in there.

No, this is helpful for me because as we're talking, I can see where I easily bring them together and mishmash them sometimes in ways that is. Could get me confused in the room as a therapist in terms of, like, how I think about organizing things, you know?

Yeah.

Instead of thinking about the pain chart and peace chart as separate stuff, I can put them in with the peace cycle and pain cycle. And so, you know, this is why I'm glad we're having this conversation, because it just makes me take a step back and go, oh, yeah. One is this, like you said, theoretical application. Right. Chart, the peace chart, which helps us as therapists organize and sequence things. And then the pain cycle and pee cycle is really the working model, the practice that we're going to work with clients to work through the four steps.

Right? Yeah. So that's like your. Your foundational piece that you're drawing from to understand each of your clients. So, yeah, I think that's good. And your clients may or may not see the pain in the piece chart.

Right.

But your clients may better if you're a restoration therapist. Your clients better see that pain cycle and that peace cycle if they have not seen the pain and peace cycle with you. And they don't know what it looks like. They don't know it like the backhand, like, their backhands. You're not doing restoration therapy with your client.

Well, and I'm guilty of, like, not every client sometimes has seen the full spectrum of pain and peace cycle for whatever reason, you know?

Yeah.

And so for me, that's still the growing edge is to make sure that every client that I work with understands that clearly. Because I can look at some sessions or some clients where they have a pretty good understanding of it or pretty good working model, or they've seen more of the pain cycle. And we're still trying to get the peace cycle, and it's in fragmented. So I've been thinking a lot as a therapist of how I even do a better job of making sure that I don't miss some of the sequencing and pieces.

Right. I mean, and let's be fair. I mean, sometimes we have clients that are coming for specific things, and, yeah, they're. You know, but we're just not doing. We have to admit, we're not doing restoration therapy with that person at that point.

Yeah. Like, it doesn't mean you're not a good therapist or you're not doing the working you do, but it's rt. RT is your clients at least seeing for sure the pain and peace cycle and beginning to practice the four steps.

Yeah.

That.

Those are. Those are quintessential, as Terry was saying, core components.

Yeah. You want to say anything about the peace chart at all?

Yeah. Sorry. We kind of jumped all over this thing, didn't we?

Okay. We're good. Yeah.

I. I mean, the piece chart. So let's finish the pain chart.

Yep.

Because the pain chart we have, it goes down. The four coping. You want to talk about the four coping?

Yeah. Well, when we're in pain, when there's a violation of love and trust, we either blame others.

Yep.

Right. Shame ourselves.

Come on.

Control. So blame and shame is under the violation of identity and love.

Yeah, typically.

Typically. Not always.

Yeah.

And then control or escape chaos.

Yeah.

And you'll. Again, typically when there's a violation of safety, we'll see people control. Want to control their environment or they want to escape and get chaotic. Right.

Yeah. And people can do. You know, I love Terry when he talks about. He's like, we got our one steppers. We got our two steppers. We got our three steppers, and we have some four steppers out there. You know, I love it when he talks about it, but, yeah, I think that's. That's a moment in the. When you're doing the work. I think the eye. Like, when you show that pain chart and you're teaching on it, like, when you show the violations of love and trust. When you talk about love and trust, that's where people like, oh, man, I didn't have that. I didn't have that. You talk about violations that, you know, like. Oh, yeah, me too. You talk about pain, they're like, oh, wow. You talk about the biological elements there when you talk about the pain piece. But, man, when you start talking about the coping, that is when you see eyes Darting left and right because they're like. Oh, that's. Yeah. Like they're. They're doing the thing where they're pointing at the other.

So.

Yeah, but we. We. The pine chart is how we understand the unhealthy elements in this world. Yeah. Let's talk about the peace chart, man. I think this is very important when you think about the peace chart, you know, Rhett, what. What goes on inside of you.

That it's really hard to do. Outside of me, it's easy to get my pain up, man. Or clients, but it's hard, you know, to. To get that. That piece part up, you know?

Yeah.

Well, you're a runner, right? I do run.

And like, you. When you run, you know your routes. You're going to run, don't you?

Mm.

Like, I. I don't know about you, but I used to do trail running when I. When I was. I did, like, cross country in high school, and then I would just be ridiculous as a kid growing up, but I would. I would run and I would know the run. The route I was running. Like, I knew exactly where that big route is that I tripped on, and I would. I'd be able to run that route without even thinking about it.

Yeah.

So I think that's.

Yeah, it's where our. Yeah, our. It's laid down, that wiring. It's. That neural connection's super strong.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, and so, I mean, I guess when I think about the. The peace chart, you know, we're looking for identifying truths around our sense of identity and our sense of safety. Right.

Yeah.

And. And then also beginning to look at, instead of these coping behaviors, what are the actions that we're going to take out of these. Out of these truths?

Right. Yeah.

Go ahead.

Good. No, you, buddy.

No, because here's where I want to ask you, you know, when it comes to the. The. The actions. Correct.

Yeah.

We're looking at. We talk about nurture. We talk about valuing self. We talked about balance, give and taking. We talk about the ability to reliably connect.

Yes, right.

Those quadrants. When you think about the truth words themselves, though, what categories are we looking for? Are we just thinking primarily around identity and safety? Around love and trust?

Yeah, we're going to identity and safety. And I think it's. You know, this is. This is like, when you first give this. Like, when your clients first look at this, you know, they're, you know, like. And we're doing it on the level of, you know, is it true that you're unloved Is it true that you're not safe? You know, clients will be like, no, I am loved. I am safe. So the truth is that thing that you can hold on to no matter what. You know, I. I think this is. This is where, you know, integration gets really exciting because there's some truth that we. That we can hold on to no matter what. And. And. But I think beyond just integration, there's. There's other truths that we've experienced in life that we can hold on to no matter what.

You put virtue as truth or in the action category, or can they hold both spiritual spaces? At times, I believe I feel like.

The virtue, like, because you have vices and virtues, you know, that would be like the classic one. So I would put the virtue as in the.

Like.

That is then the new action. Personally, like, you. Like. Like a virtuous person is somebody that is, like, has that core. Like, you know, it's really funny. Like, from a clinical perspective or from a theological perspective, like, we have clients come in the room, and they're like, oh, yeah, Fruits of the spirit. Fruits of the spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control. And they'll name the things, but they're not naming the root of where the things come from. Right. So I think I put virtue more in the realm of, like. That is. That is the overflow from which the truth comes. Because, like, when you look at, like, the old vices and virtues. Have you seen this? Like, I think it, like. Was it Aristotle or Plato?

Mm, yeah.

Like, good.

I was gonna. Let me throw something out at you. Ooh. With integration, though. Like, I'm thinking about this. I don't know. This would be a good question. Ask Terry, because he's done a lot of work around virtue and reading and kind of thinking through. But when Paul. In Philippians 4:8.

Yeah.

He uses the Greek word, which is a virtue. Right. And after talking about anxiety. Right. And peace in verse 4:7, he says, in 4:8, finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, worthy, think about such things. And then in verse nine, he says, put that into practice. Right? So. And I would have to dive deeper into this, because I'm just thinking of this right out loud.

Are you writing a book?

I am working on something right now. So I have been thinking about this, but I could be. I could be completely wrong that what Paul's asking us to meditate on are these virtues, right? And then he says, go out and practice them. So those virtues take on a practice form. And so there's this meditating on these virtues, which in my mind I think about as truth sometimes. And I could be splitting hairs here. I don't know, I could be way wildly wrong. But I kind of like think about virtue sometimes as a truth that's not only we believe it, but we also go out and practice it. And I think it's good language too, to use in audiences or groups. Maybe, let's say, don't come from a faith background, for example. Yeah, like, you know, everybody loves the Stoics right now, or a lot of people do. And reading about Marcus Aurelius or a lot of the other Stoics talk about virtue. And so it's an easy word sometimes to use in certain contexts to say, here are some virtues or truths. And when you meditate on these, what does your life look like? How do you practice those things?

Yeah, anyways, no. So many great conversations to have right now trying to figure out which one would be better. Well, I just.

Yeah, we don't dive deep into that. But I was just thinking, I just want to know what you think of virtue is in the categories there as act, truth or action.

I put in the action category personally. Like, for me, it's from the overflow of the stable knowledge of self, the true self, and the knowledge of one's sense of empowerment. I think with safety, this is where things get hairy, right? Because we're not in a safe world, things are not safe. This is very abundantly clear where we live, that it's not safe. However, there's things that we can hold on to in the midst of the unsafe world that we live in. And I think that's where, like, when it comes to truth, this is. This is such a important part of the work that we do is to really find those truths that can really, like, they can anchor into. That's not like this thing that's going to be faulty, but like a truth that's like very. Like, this is reliable. Yeah, yeah, but I like that idea of arete, like that, you know, as we. Whatever is, Whatever is true, whatever is noble. That's so powerful when we're trying to stop ruminations, right? Like, stop it, do these things instead. This is. This is the flow of health and healing and. And living the full life. You want to continue down your, like, narrow perspective, you know, like that. That narrowed, like, focused perspective on. On the pains and the ills of life. You will. You know what? That's going to get you. Yeah.

When you do your pain chart and peace chart, do you mostly, let's say most of the time with clients, and let's say you're organizing it in the room in front of them on a chart or something. Sure. Will you show those quadrants? Blame, shame, control, escape, and then also, also nurture, valuing, self balance, give and take, reliably connecting. Yeah. Okay.

I do. And I really like to, like, act them out because I think that's. That's like, one of the most fun parts when you're working with the audience. Like, they, they. They get that immediately.

One thing that I remember Sharon saying at a retreat, it's really important, is that as we're thinking about this with clients or working on their charge. So eventually get to the cycle here. Our. Our truths have to speak into the pain.

Yeah.

It can't be that my pain is I'm not good enough. I'm a failure. And my truth is. I don't know. Loved, let's say that could be important. But my truth needs to speak into specifically this idea of, like, I'm a failure and I'm not good enough.

Right.

This idea, this truth that I am enough, that I'm more than enough, that.

I'm capable, that you're Rhett freaking Smith, bro.

Does that make sense, Lance?

Yeah. Yeah. And I. The cool. The thing with the pain chart, this is, you know, going back to the three realms. This is the attachment part. Okay. Like the. The identity and safety part that we start with. This is where we're. This is how we're. This is our theory on attachment.

Yeah.

When we're talking about this, this is why we have the others react box. When we get to the pain cycle. This is our. This is how we understand attachment. As restoration therapists, we. Terry likes to say we do attachment theory better than any attachment theory. I shouldn't have done it, said it like that. We do attachment theory better than anybody else.

You know what? I have a good idea for a podcast episode.

Yeah.

We bring Terry on video and we let him listen to this episode. Like, have you seen those episodes where viewers listen to a song together and they just had, like, a reaction video? And so we get Terry's reaction to listen to us talk about rt, like, all of us on split screens, and then. And then he pauses it and either corrects us or tells us we're on. We're on the right path here, dude.

Let me show you this. Let me see if I can show this on the screen, Terry.

That's a shout out. By the way, we're talking about reaction videos earlier because our friend Clint Davis had a podcaster had him on doing a reaction video to NF's new song Fear. And it was fun to watch him talk about mental health and faith and stuff, so. All right, dude.

Okay. I gotta. So Terry. I've actually experienced this watching Terry watch people.

Okay.

And my horror. And this is the picture I have of him saved in my phone for when he calls me. I don't know if you can see this.

Oh, what is that? He's got, like, a napkin over his face with.

Yep.

Glasses over it.

Yep. This is. This was when. I'm not gonna say who he is watching. He was watching someone do therapy and he's like, it was a day. It's just one of those days, you know? You know those days where it's like, oh, watching therapy is miserable. Like, you're watching practicum students that are like, very fresh. It's just. It's. It's hard. He just stick that. He took a tissue and covered his face. I'd be afraid. I wonder if, like, when he watches or listens to us, if he ever wants to take those tissues and just stuff them in his ears.

Oh. I mean, he loves us. He loves us, he loves us. He's watched me do therapy, though. I'm sure he was talking to Sharon about it afterwards. You can't believe a Rhett did. Oh, man. But, you know, that's the beautiful thing about this community. We're learning to get better and grow.

Yeah. That's one of the hidden elements course of. Of what we do in restoration therapy. And that was like, one of the things that they. They were really nailing down. Like, for restoration therapists, it is really important that we are truth speakers to one another. Yeah. Like, we have to be real with one another. And if we're not real, we're really hurting each other. And so being real in a loving and safe way. Yeah. Hey, we want to grow.

Do you again. I know we could. We could do a long episode for each of these, but we're just trying to get through some of them. Anything else you want to say about pain chart? Peace chart?

No, I think that's just. Just going back to. That's our attachment. That's our. That's our theoretical frame of attachment.

So let's talk about the pain cycle. Peace cycle. Yeah.

Oh, man. This is the mindfulness tool, bro. Do you remember, like, when you first saw your pain cycle or when you first show a client Their peace, like, their pain cycle.

I was at the Hideaway sitting third chair, watching therapists do the work with four couples. So in my own mind, I was doing it on my own behind the scenes, and I had my pain and peace cycle up that first intensive, and I went home and I just practiced it on my wife, who had no clue what I was doing.

And.

But it changed our life. You know, it changed my world. And so I remember that first time. Yeah.

Yeah, man. That. That tool, the. The tool, the pain and the peace cycle of. Of being able to see the juxtaposition of the two and to be able to, like, use it as a mind. Like, eventually, the mindfulness tool with the four steps is absolutely, like, you know, it changes everything.

So let's say the pain chart, peace chart, that's you organizing, really, the clients in the session around attachment, violations of love and trust. And then as you do that work, you're moving it on into a pain and peace cycle, preferably on a chart or on paper, things that they can look at and see and work on.

It's basically. It's our diagnostic lens for the way we approach each person. Right.

Yeah.

Obviously, the DSM is out there for good reason, but for us as restoration therapists, this is our diagnostic tool with a pain cycle. We're diagnosing the pain and the coping and how others react. That's our diagnostic. And we're prescribing. I don't know if Terry would put it this way, but we're prescribing, like, here's the truth and here's these new actions and watch how others react.

I think of, like, a book. You know, some. Some books, they start with, like, getting into the theory and, like, the model and everything, and you have a deep understanding. And then a big part of the book is like, here's the practical application now. Here's how you're going to take what you learned and put it into practice.

Totally.

And so we take the pain and peace chart to get into the theory, to work it to understand at deep levels, our clients, understand ourselves. And then we're going to take that and put it into the mindfulness piece of the pain and peace cycle with the four steps and practice that and work that out in our lives. I just think loud.

Yeah, no, I think that's the perfect example. Rhett, I think you nailed it.

So anything you want to that differentiates the chart, Pain and peace chart, to the pain and peace cycle. Pain and peace cycle, you said, is the mindfulness. What. What. What's important for people listening when you say the pain and peace cycle, that you think they need to know if they're practicing RT number one, you have.

To put it in front of your person. Your clients should have it in their.

Hands at all times.

I would say, like, it needs to make a. It needs to make a showing at 90. Like, once it. Once you get that, like the pain cycle, we should have it like, you know, Terry says six sessions. He's like, yeah, you know, it usually within the first 30 minutes, but, you know, you want to kind of give it some time to play out that, you know, so we should have it in our clients hands within the first six sessions, their pain cycle, and then we're working towards that peace cycle. But yeah, in their hands.

Do you.

When I'm working written on the board.

Yeah. When I work with couples, I'll still use the huge sticky notes and put their pain in peace cycle up there on a chart with the steps, roll it up and send it home with them. Do you still do something like that?

So what I do is I have a big glass in my office. I wish we were in my office now. And I write it on there and I have them take a picture of it.

Okay.

And I have them, like, make it very accessible. I think the sticky note is probably a little bit better personally, because then they take it home and you tell them to put it in the place where they argue the most. And then they have to look at that.

Versus something I learned in this. This is not rt, I'm saying, but something I learned doing the intensives is we would have couples go home, put it in their closet just because they would see it all the time. Because you get closets where you get dressed and undressed and you are. And. And so what we learned from couples often is that when they got into conflict, they would literally go in their closet and stand in front of their charts and practice the steps.

Yeah.

You know, you may not want it on your refrigerator over the holidays when family's in town.

Nah, do it, do it. It makes for a great conversation.

I totally knew you would. You'd be like, put that out there.

Yeah, mom, this is all your fault. See, this is why I feel unloved.

By the way, shout out next week episode. Well, we're recording episodes week with Sharon and Dee Dee Meyer about what families and the holidays and stuff, so that'll be fun.

They love those. This is gonna be. That's. I'm. I'm just gonna sit back and watch that one. It'll be great.

So they got. They. We've done the work of the. Getting the pain. Understanding their pain and peace cycle, doing it on the chart and then putting it into a tool in front of them on paper or on the board. You have them, you know, take a picture of it, of their pain and peace cycle. You have them identify that pain and peace cycle along with you, of course, helping them. Right.

And we're. We're trying to narrow those words down, I think. Yeah, three to five is good for each. Each box.

Yeah. I always try to get down to three to maybe four, tops.

Yeah. You can star the go tos.

I encourage clients to circle as many words as they want. Sometimes in the beginning just to kind of with that and then to go back. I still. And I don't know, I think I've had conversations where some people don't do this. Maybe it's not helpful. Even when I'm not in session, I will still give homework like a handout of like a pain chart, not a chart. Pain words and piece words. And I'll have clients go home and just sit with that with a couple of prompt questions and circle as many words as they experience and then bring that into session and we'll unpack that.

Yeah, it's great. I think I might want to go to you for therapy, Rhett.

I don't know. I bought these, these little journals on Amazon. They come in like a pack of like 30. And so in my first session, I give this journal to clients, often with a handout, just because I feel like people love the momentum of coming to therapy and working in the room, but then leaving with some practice. Not like, oh, what am I going to do till next week? You know.

Right. Yeah, a lot. Practice. We're all about practice. Let's talk about practice. What's the four steps?

Someday we'll have to people. A lot of people listening may know that reference to Allen Iverson's press conference about practice back in the early 2000s. If they don't Google Allen Iverson practice, I'll put that in the show notes.

Yeah. And it was also later adapted in the famous Apple TV show Ted Lasso.

Yes. Yes. Would you ask me the four steps? Yeah, yeah. It's a continuation of the mindfulness practice is that we want to take the pain cycle and the peace cycle and put it into steps that people say and can begin to embody. You know, and so the pain cycle is. Step one is say what you are feeling. Step two. Yeah. Say it out loud. I. Right now I'M feeling not good enough. I feel like a failure. And then step two, what I normally do is I, I do a lot of things, Lance, but typically I try to perform or achieve and if that doesn't work, I'll try to control things and eventually that doesn't work. I just escape or numb out. I have a good dance going on. So those are the first two steps. Step three, get into our peace cycle, which is say the truth. And step four is taking that new action. Yeah, I've seen it written different ways. I was looking at the difference between it written in the RT book to how it was written in the advance and techniques to how it was written in the five days to a new self. And it's had a little bit of evolution, but essentially it's do the action.

Yeah, yeah, it's do the action. I mean how we, how we show it to our clients is, you know, I think that's important. Like, you know how you like say, say the coping or say the feeling, say the coping, say the truth and then say the new action. That's important to make sure we outline all those things. But Terry, Terry was like, you know, if you diagram it a little bit, if you show your diagram, as long as you have the parts there, it's we're happy. Just make sure you're using this, this four step model. Like.

Yeah, I, I'm actually taking notes as we're talking because I'm learning some things here. I do. I, I like what Mike, Michael. I was trying to think. Michael Pachuca was on our podcast with his. That intervention. Your hand on your head and your heart. Yeah. When you're saying your truth, is it here in your head or in your heart or both? And how do we move it? You remember that?

Yeah, I use that all the time now.

Yeah, I've been using the clients. Like when they say their truth, where do you feel that? Like, is it in your head just as intellectual knowledge or is it in their heart? And, and how are we going to move it to that heart and getting them up and like practicing feeling that, like taking that action?

Yeah, it's so powerful when you. Yeah, and I think that's part of the stuff with restoration therapy. And this is why level two being in consultation groups is so important because, you know, it's, it's. To understand the concepts is really important. But then the application of the concepts to me is that's where the magic happens. Like, where, like the, the to watch the blood flow through the organs is just like, whoa, this Is amazing.

Just a quick integration piece here. My. This is a lot of my experience with Christians or people from the faith background is their truth. They know it intellectually, like. Well, the Bible says this. I know this about me.

Yes.

But it's this head knowledge, and it's not embodied, you know, and so I think, like, some of the beautiful things about RT is, you know, this mindfulness practice, but then getting them up in the room and helping them move it from head to heart.

Yeah.

You know, dude, the heart.

The heart matters.

I have a thought.

Lance, what's your thought?

Let's spend the rest of this episode just kind of riffing on a few. What we've talked about. Because we just unpacked a bunch.

Yeah, we did.

And the forgiveness piece is huge.

Yes.

And I feel like I'd like to have Terry on or Eric on. Eric's coming on anyways soon, and I know that's something he's really been unpacking is the forgiveness model. So we can talk about that with him. But I want to do that justice.

Okay.

If you will. I want to be fair.

We named it.

Yeah.

And fairness is important in restoration therapy.

Yeah. And we gotta talk about the stop, turn, slow at another time, and we gotta ask Terry about the us.

Yeah, let's talk about us.

So I'm gonna. I'm gonna name some things for you. Okay. And I want you to tell me what you're. You work with a lot of therapists. You do a lot of training. What is the hardest concept to grasp that we mentioned, and what comes the easiest? Okay, so we got emotional regulation versus co regulation.

Yep.

Got the pain chart. Peace chart. Got the pain cycle. We got the peace cycle. We got the four steps. What do you notice is really challenging for new therapists and therapists who've been working for a long time? And what seems to come easier and just click easier?

Well, I'd say a lot of the front end stuff is pretty easy. Like, you know, people like, you know, it's like, yeah, that makes sense. You know, like the. The. The. The feelings of, you know, like, feeling unloved and the coping, like, it all makes sense for someone. I think it gets hard when we are challenging the status quo by saying, well, the truth is this. They like the. They like the initial, you know, pass with the truth sometimes, you know, depending on how long they've been in their pain cycles. But the. The practice of finding that can be really hard. So I think, you know, the struggle that I notice a lot of therapists having is one is just dialing in, like, to really work the model, let the model work. You know, they, they get, they kind of want to. They want to nuance out or branch out from the model. I don't think that's helpful. I think it's better to stay within the model and allow it to flow. And, you know, once you've, once you've flown, like once you're the four step, when you have your clients in the four steps, that's when you can kind of play and kind of use, you know, other. Other elements out that are out there. But until that person's regulated, like, we're not going to get that far. But yeah, I would say the, the other thing that I still struggle with too is just how do we get our clients to use our four steps? Man. Yeah, like that, that, that is a. You know, I've like gone through so many different practice pieces that are out there. What's the James Clear book? Atomic Habits?

Yeah. Yeah.

I've like read through, Endure that. That in an endurance book. Willpower. You know, like, there's, there's so many things that's like, to get someone to follow through and try out emotional regulation. That is, that is such a, A dance. So that, that would probably be where.

I see the practice. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I remember being at the beginning of their anxiety pilot intensives and, and Terry said to the group, you know, something to the effect of. I used to believe it was 80% insight and 20% practice, and now I believe it's 20% insight and 80% practice. Like a huge flip that we don't necessarily need to know more. We need to actually practice more of what we know. And it's so important. Yeah, I, Yeah, I was just, I was curious. I'm looking at the list and you know what's helpful for me in having this conversation with you is I was just thinking it's easy to get lazy in therapy. And by lazy I mean not that you're not doing work or good work even. It's that you can kind of get. You can drift from some of the structure of a model and then that can. That lead down the road, that drift. You realize, I'm lost. I'm lost at sea. It's like a boat that gets off course just a little bit and then you. And then you're like, oh, I thought we were supposed to land the boat in the Bahamas. And now we're like some. We're just nil nowhere. We're just off course a little bit.

And I Triangle. Yeah.

So one thing I want to work on is I don't think I do well enough getting the quadrants of blame, shame, control, and escape. I do it on a. I do it on occasion, but I think that would be really helpful. And then the same, the. The peace chart, having, you know, the nurturing self, balance, give and take, valuing self, reliably connecting. Like, how people see that. Like, I think that would help me or structure and organize myself better and the client, and that would flow easier into the pain and peace work.

Yeah, I would agree. I mean, Terry talks about this in the level one training when we're doing the organization elements, that of understanding where their pain cycles come from, that we are supposed to interrupt our clients, like, at least every three to five minutes. And I think people feel like it's so uncomfortable to interrupt your client.

Right.

Like, they're telling this, like, really painful story about, you know, whatever happened to them, and they're just like, they're in there telling the story. And we are supposed to say, okay, pause. This is really important, what you're saying. Can you say, what were you feeling in that moment? You know, like, to me, like, when you're dialing down these quadrants, that, to me, is one of those things that, like, for us as therapist, that requires a lot of interactivity. And I think, like, personally, for me, when I get lazy, I'm not interrupting my clients enough and asking them those core questions. I'm like, all right, go ahead and tell me the story. It's obvious that you want to share this right now and that that's where we can. You know, it's important to hear the story, but to contextualize it in around the pain or peace cycle is really important.

Let me ask you a question, and I brought this up, I think, actually in with some other RT therapists over time. What's interesting, how do I ask this question? You know, like, we're talking about how to do rt, you know, and we go to trainings and we listen and we talk about the components. And it's really easy to get in your pain cycle as an RT therapist when you start thinking, I'm not doing it right or I'm not sticking to stuff, or I feel like a failure at rt.

Yeah. Resonate. Yeah. Or Mike Bishop was right. You suck.

I've had people listen to our podcast, and they're, like, blown away. Let's just, for example, a Tanner's interventions. And because they can't do Tanner's interventions, I don't feel confident that they feel like a failure as an RT therapist, you know? Yeah. So. And there's times I'm. I get off the episode with one of our guests and I'm like, oh, man, I'm not very good being a therapist. Not very good.

We get all these great people on the podcast. It's hard.

Yeah. So what do you say to the people you train who are just learning RT just to encourage them, you know, because it's easy to get. I mean, that's the beautiful thing about rt, is we can, we can recognize ourself in our own pain cycle as we're even doing the work. Yeah.

I mean, they're. The old saying, the old proverb. I don't. I probably showed this on the. Is that, you know, do you know the best time to plant a tree?

I. I've heard it, but what is it?

It's 20 years ago.

Yeah.

And the second best time is right now. You know, this work that we do, this work that we have been gifted, these, these souls that walk into our offices, each is precious.

Right.

And we have been given the task of coming alongside the healing of persons. So I think the thing that I want to really encourage myself in my pain cycle or even encourage my associates or my teammates is that, hey, you know, you get another try. You get another try. And it's not about, like, being a failure or whatever. Like, you know, this is, we're, we're, we're on the journey of healing and along the way, it's not going to be pretty, but give it another try, man. Like, this is, this is the work, and if you keep trying, eventually it will become a part of you. Right. And, yeah, that. I don't, I don't know if that's helpful or not.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I just, it came to mind because as we're talking through these components, like, you know, I'm doing a self analysis of my own work with RT and where I'm at, what do I think I do well, where do I need to improve on, you know?

Yeah. So, yeah, I loved how Terry, you know, his, his when, when I used to do consultation with him with my, with my group once a month for like, I think we did for like eight years or something like that. And at the end of every single consultation group, he says, go and be the best therapist in the world. And I, I think that's a call, you know, that's, that's, that's our call is to just go be our best, you know, and Rhett, you can do your best, and I'll do my best.

And, you know, sometimes it's those sessions that we think were amazing that clients don't remember, and the times that you think you weren't doing a good job, they're like, man, remember when you said that to me in session? I'm like, I don't, but I'll say.

That, but I'll go for it. Awesome.

You know, so we are not, you know, we have to show up and be the vessel, and we are not always in control of how things play out, you know, and we just got to use our talents and gifts the best that we can.

All right. You're so right. I mean, I think that's. At the end of the day. At the. At the very end of the day is like, we're not the healer. Like, we walk alongside and that, you know, that there. There's. There's a greater healer that is out there that is working in. In this person's life, and to. To hold on to that is such a beautiful thing. Yeah.

Well, Lance, you have a busy day today.

It's time to. It's time to go be the best therapist in the world right now. There's some people that need it.

I do too. I get the privilege in a couple hours, like, to hop on a zoom with Terry as he's helping me work on some writing that I'm doing. So, you know, hopefully, Terry. Hopefully when the zoom comes on, he's not. Doesn't have a napkin over his face and glasses. Awesome.

All right, man.

Well, all right, man. Go do your work. See ya later.