Season 1 | Episode 44 | Special Guests, Sharon Hargrave & Dee Mayer -- Navigating Relationships During the Holidays

Foreign.

It's good to see you, my friend. Got some stuff to do today, episode.

44, and we're not going to beat around the bush, so introduce our guests, please.

All right, game on. We got heavy hitters today, guys. Look out on your interwebs, voice, thing, ears. We have Dee Dee Meyer from Boone center of the family. She's spoken with us before. If you don't know Dee Dee Meyer, you don't know. Relate strong. Look out, man. She will help you to be a wholehearted, wonderful person. And then we have just a total favorite of all peoples, someone that we are all excluding. Like, just love you so much. Sharon Hargreave. Glad you guys are here today.

Yeah, glad to be with you.

Thanks for having us.

So today, Rhett, do you want to see what we're talking about?

Well, people are heading home for the holidays.

Oh. It's a thing.

They're going to be with family for Thanksgiving and Christmas, and we could probably talk about this for hours at a time, but we thought let's do a little, I don't know, you guys can tell me what you want to call it, like a primer on some things to be thinking about for the holidays and how to navigate different issues around the holidays with family and friends in a healthy way. Yeah.

So I would put it into this kind of language in that a lot of therapists, Terry and I did a podcast a few months ago about, you know, how to connect with people that you're feeling some disconnect with in the political world and everything like that. A lot of therapists have been saying to me, I'm going home, and I have tension in my relationships. How can I do those differently? So we want to just talk about that for a few minutes, and then we also want to get into the topic of how do you help families heal where there's been estrangement? Because unfortunately, and very sadly, many families in our country right now are estranged from one another because of political issues. So we're going to do something personal for those of you that are listening for you, and then we're also going to try to give you some information about the best way to help your clients begin the process of healing family relationships that have gone wrong. So I'm just going to step into this a little bit first, and then Dede is going to give us some information, and then we'll come back to some of the work that we've done together on this issue. But part of what I realized, I was with a group of RT therapists, a Couple of weeks ago. And part of what I realized is people have heard us say, and this is very true, they've heard us say, what we're looking for with families is that they can talk about these issues calmly. So I had several people talk to me about, okay, you know, how do I talk calmly about the issues? And suddenly, in the middle of one of these conversations, I realized there's a step before this. This is why we RT therapists get together, because we figure out, oh, we missed a step. Oh, yeah, and we've missed a step. And the step that we've missed is talking to the person about the relationship first. To be able to say to somebody, I felt tension in our relationship, and I know we have some differences, but I need you to know how important this relationship is with me. And I don't want the differences to come in the way of relationships. Does that make sense? Any thoughts or questions?

You have to say it again. Yeah, say that line again. Because I was like, you said a lot there without.

So the step we've missed is that before we can calmly talk to other people about issues, let's just take political. Because it's so hot right now, we have to take a step back and tell the person that we felt tension with or that we felt a disconnect with something like, my relationship with you is more important than political issues. There's been tension in our relationship. What can we do to solve the tension? Does that make sense?

Why is that stuff you think so important prior to the other one that you thought was originally the first step?

Because unless you have helped people define what the purpose of the conversation is, they'll think it's abortion or gun control or whatever. And the purpose of the initial conversation is say, hey, I miss you in my life. I miss our calm conversations. I miss our connection. I want you. I don't want to dread coming to Thanksgiving because of conversations we may have. Because a lot of people are going home dreading it. Right. Because of those kinds of conversations.

And a lot of people have assumptions without even having a conversation. Like, I talk a lot of people, and they're making assumptions about their family's beliefs or values without even knowing if it's accurate or if they've had or had a conversation. When I ask them is, how do you know? They're like, I don't know. I just. Assuming my parents voted for X, Y, or Z. I just assume this is their position, but they've never even actually named it.

Yeah. And I think y' all are putting such Important emphasis on the fact that we live outside of the convictions we have or the values we have for what we're looking for in family, like the connection, valuing each other as members of the same family. And, Rhett, you're even talking about this idea of we put different expectations. You know, I wonder, when I go and have a conversation with a group of friends, I actually have a lot of grace for a difference of opinion. Right. I don't expect them, but we make so many assumptions about beliefs, and we have so much less grace. We sort of expect that because you're my family, we have. You have to be in a different level of agreement. And so establishing that foundation of care and of relationship matters more than this topic that we're going to discuss, not just verbally, but even in the way we're spending our time. Sometimes we go straight to that hard conversation instead of establishing a level of connection that says, I actually care about you. I've missed you. I've missed the person that you are. And we go back to those. You're valuable to me. You have unique gifts and talents that I appreciate in my life, and that we have a sense of belonging together. Those concepts getting established as a foundation before we step into some of those other areas. Areas where we might have conflict. Because I think it's just easy to make assumptions about family and not have the grace for our family that we would extend to people that we meet all over, that we work with. Right.

And you know, Dedi, I just want to add here, we're talking to therapists.

Yeah.

We're people that should be able to go home and negotiate relationships. Well. Because we're trying to teach our clients how to go home and negotiate relationships.

Well, so say not as I do.

Yeah. And I want to say one more thing. Like, we tend to make our friendships based on affinities. Right. We create connection based on similarities, similar ideas, but we don't get that. That's not promised to us in our families. Like, as a family, we're connected without agreement, without affinity. We have common blood or relationship. We share same people in our lives, but it doesn't mean we're not selecting people for those reasons. And I think that's important for us to recognize as we step back into those environments that our connections aren't based on beliefs like those things in the same way. Right.

Yeah.

We can have differences of opinions when it comes to politics or when it comes to some other things. And this is where families rift a lot. If we look at some of those common Factors. I mean, Sharon, when you talk about estrangement in politics, totally hits at holidays because it impacts what I feel about going home. And some families are saying, I'm not going home because of these political differences. I mean, 25 to 26 million unit U.S. adults are estranged because of political differences. That's one in six families of estrangement. That's what the research tells us. One in six families that are experiencing estrangement. It's based on the politics that are going around right now.

So what we thought we'd do, we've kind of asked Rhett and Lance to. You know, they're. They're very qualified therapists. They know their four steps. So what we ask them to do is to think of a relationship that they're a little nervous to be around over the holiday time. This can be a family member, this can be a friend. This can be a colleague, anybody that they think they feel a little tension about being around. And we're going to do it in such a way that, you know, this is a public format, so we don't want them discussing their relationship issues with whoever it might be on public format. But I'm just going to ask you to walk through your four steps. What is it? Because some of us walk in the door tense, right? We're already. To Dee Dee and Rhett's point, we're already anticipating a problem. So if. If one of you guys would just step into that for us. I don't know. Who wants to go first.

Go ahead, Lance.

I love that. Okay, so you got your. You got your tension relationship in your mind.

I'm picking one.

Just pick one.

I love my family. I just. Yeah, okay, Got one.

It doesn't have to be a family member. It can also be a friend. So do you have one?

Yep. There.

Okay, so let me hear your four steps. What are you feeling?

I feel overwhelmed, and I. I feel unfair. And what I normally do. Yeah, okay. What I normally do in these situations, I. I do all three, and it's like, glorious. I perform first. You know, I put on the song and dance, and then I get really angry and I'll throw down hard, and then I shut down. Did I say okay?

Yeah, I love that, Lance, because I think how many of us are walking into our families doing a song and dance? That's our. That's our first, you know, go to.

So, yeah, when you have the name Lance, dance comes right with it.

Dance and Lance, that's what I'm gonna. Okay, so, Lance, what's the truth?

Yeah, you know, I think the truth is, number one is I know I'm still called. That has meaning to me in difficult situations when things feel unfair and I feel overwhelmed, I can just hear, lean into the calling. I think there's another thing for me just knowing I'm loved and God is in control.

So with these people, whoever this person that you have in your mind, you know, you can lean into God. God has still called you in relationship with this person, you know, you loved and you can lean in. So what are you going to do differently instead of being dancing Lance?

You know, I, I, There's a huge difference where I can just be myself.

And.

That means to me of just being able to engage as I don't have to put on the song and dance. I can just be in my body, I can be caring and I can, I can be open like, like engage in, in a, in a caring way. I think that's like a little bit, it's a, it's a play on what I would do. But yeah.

Okay, so then what then, you know, step five, that if we could rewrite all the literature that we have already written, we would add and then do it. What would you do? What would you do with this person differently? How would they know after you told them you wanted to connect with them, that you wanted to just be your calm self?

Yeah.

What would you do differently? How would they know?

I think the thing they would know is that I love them. And the, the thing that I would want to call out is the relationship at hand of like, you know, you're my, you know, fill in the blank. I'll name the one that I don't have conflict with at all because that's just easier. You're my sister and you're. I, I love you. And, and this is, we have, there is issues, but you're always my sister so we can figure this out together. Some way of how we can interact in a way that like, we'd have a wonderful holiday and grow together.

And so what's something you and your sister used to do that you really found fun? What's a, what's a great connector for you and your sister?

So, I mean, we're just goofballs. So I think we would just be silly together. I think that's something that, you know, we put on music and we would dance. My sister, my sister taught me to dance. It was great. She said, just jump around a lot and you'll be fine. That was back before the tick tock days.

But.

Dance and Lance Just became a connecting guy. Right. I mean, these are the kind of things that we're talking about. It's like we don't want to walk in the door and say, okay, I want to talk about politics. We said, I want to walk in the door, and I want to be different. I want to be calm, I want to be connecting. I want to be silly. I want to dance. And maybe next holiday, we'll talk about politics. Does that make sense?

Yeah. And, Sharon, I just am thinking about how we walk in the door, because what we're doing is we're performing, Right. We start. We. I'm just listening to what you said, Lance. We're performing when we know we're not going to start at politics, but we're just waiting. We're just waiting for that opportunity. So we've got all these things and all this tension building up in us as we're waiting for that conversation to hit and we're performing until that offense is made against us, and then we are ready to go. We're gonna step in or step out. Right. So I'm just hearing the difference that can happen when we come in, Sharon, and we say, hey, I learned to dance for my sister. I do have a TikTok vision going in my mind of jump around. Right. But the difference it can make when you've established that foundation that what matters to me is you.

Yeah.

What matters to me is the relationship that we have. What matters to me is that we're family and that nobody can take that from us. And this other thing. This other thing we're going to figure out together. Right?

Yeah. I think that's. That's huge, you know, And I think that permission there.

There.

I feel like there's still, like a conduit to have that conversation in a loving way.

Right?

Yeah.

It's not the end goal. And that's where I think we've kind of gotten confused.

Yeah.

The relationship is the end goal. And then when you have a strong relationship, you can think differently than the people around you. That allows you the freedom.

And, Sharon, again, Sharon, how you're stepping in and just saying, what am I bringing? What am I doing that's setting us up to have this blow up, even if it's performing and then waiting for you to say something that baits me into a conversation about the thing we disagree upon.

Yeah.

Or the pain that we had in the past, or the fill in that blank for anything. It could be.

So. Yeah.

Can I ask a question? I mean, I was really. I remember a long Time ago, hearing y' all story. Sharon, like, about, I mean, the holidays was one of the big turning points for you guys in your family. Like, y' all made, like, this story to me. I, I should probably have you tell it. But, like, that, that to me, has been such an inspiration. When I think about how we interact with family and, and like, particularly around opportunities for compensation and creating that space. This might be turning from what you wanted to talk about today, but. Yeah. Would you want to share it? I mean, it's your story.

Well, I, I, I just think to the point that we're making.

Yeah.

Relationship is the most important thing there. I, I think I know the story you're talking about. There was a Thanksgiving that Terry and I drove six hours to spend two hours with his family to get in the car and drive six hours home because the tension in the family was high at that point. We didn't want to cut off. We wanted to be a part of the family. But it was hard for Terri personally to be in the mix because of the dynamic. And actually us driving six hours and saying, hey, guys, we're so happy to be here. We're only going to be here two hours changed the whole dynamic of the family because suddenly there was a different focus. But that's kind of an intervention, you know, in that and, and, and those things are important, and we want to talk about those things. Rhett and Lance and Dede and I were talking about all the millions of things we could talk today.

Yeah.

I think that's for another podcast.

Yeah.

After Thanksgiving, we'll do it again.

Forgiving the devil on your own.

Yeah. But, Rhett, I just would say as. Because there are a couple other things we want to get to. When you're listening to Lance and you're thinking about this person that you have concerns about, the tension between you because of whatever the issue is, how do you feel like your four steps would help you and you don't necessarily have to go through them, but as you're thinking that process, how do you think that four steps and then doing something different would be helpful to you?

I mean, I can go through my process because I think ultimately, I think I feel inadequate most of the times. But as you're talking, I think underneath inadequacy is a feeling of not being accepted because I may have differing views or differing opinions. And so when I feel that way, I will, I'll just perform and pacify. Ultimately, I just avoid conflict at all costs, and then I'll just shut down and withdraw, is what I'll do. And you know, I think for me, the truth is really working on this idea around that I do. I am adequate, I have what it takes, that I, That I am acceptable. And I do know the truth, that my family loves me, you know, and so even if I, you know, I still believe that even if they didn't. But I do know concrete facts that they love me. And so I think for me, leaning into just engaging and I, you know, I was even thinking, like, listening to Lance, I, you know, we're talking about just, you know, like, relationship being the most important thing, but I think me being able to engage and even talk about my own feelings around an issue. Yes, it would be like honoring to the relationship, like I can show up fully as myself, but emotionally regulated.

Yeah.

Because I feel like when I don't, then they don't get to really know me either.

Right.

And so it's, I think it's, for me, it's all about engagement, actually, ultimately, and just being. Doing it in a regulated place. And I don't know if that makes sense, but, yeah, I think I, I think it's about showing up my full self, but doing it in a loving, safe way. And yeah, to hear me, who I.

Am, I, I do think that most of us would. Would agree with statements as you start into a conversation like, man, things are crazy. People are so divided. It doesn't feel good about what's going on in our country right now. I mean, regardless of which side you're on, there's lots of statements like that that I think to your point, that we can make, that doesn't step into the conversation. Well, I'm right about this issue, and I need to convince you that you're wrong. We step in saying, this is tough, these issues are hard, you know, and I think helpful. Yeah.

Yeah. Which makes pain a place where we can connect together, even. And I love what you're saying, Rhett, because that dynamic of disengaging really shapes the way you perceive your family as you leave and how you feel connected. Right. And so many of us escape because we think it's the better way, but we rob ourselves and we rob our families of getting to partner with and get to know us. So I love what you're saying. Relationship matters most. And I stepping in and staying engaged is really important because I would agree with you, I would agree that that's really important. And I know for me, as I step in, I mean, even just in the daily, because my, My husband and I don't do empty Nest very well. So we've got a lot of kids and we got some grandkids. So when I walk in the house, my environment means a lot to me. But even in my head, having little things like relationship. Relationship over a clean sink, like, I'm choosing that, you know, these things that we can do is we're getting to that fourth step. Right. This is what I'm going to stay in. Relationship to me, matters what my. As my kids leave and go to the next season of their lives, I want relationship to be what they knew was most important to me. And so how can we be led by that conviction and drawn by. I want to stay connected to you in a meaningful way. It really matters to me. You are irreplaceable in my life. I want to stay connected in a way that's healthy and safe. And so this is what I'm choosing that matters most. Right.

Yeah. And I would also say in the trial and error situation I've been in, I've learned a lot from people.

Yeah.

I've learned a lot about how people think differently than I do. It's changed my opinion on some things.

Yeah.

And I think we have to go in with that learning. You know, relationships are important, and you may have something to say that maybe will really help me learn about what's going on.

So I love that, too. And, Sharon, if I could say one more thing before we go, because I want to make it on to the next point, because I want to make a real clear thing with it. You did with Lance, that I think is really important is really building rapport and having fun together. Remembering what you did that was fun together, like going back and saying, what did we actually really enjoy? And spend as much time building that foundation of rapport so that you've got a foundation that can hold a difference of opinion. Right. Sometimes we just jump right into that without building into, hey, maybe let's do a puzzle or maybe let's play a game that we loved or maybe let's go toss the football or maybe, like, what are the things we did that we love doing together? Maybe making a Christmas craft or a Thanksgiving craft or something like that. Is there something we can do that builds rapport and connection so that we're investing in that before relying on our relationship to hold conflict? Or so I think that's really important, too. And I wanted to note what you did with Lance there and just stated overtly the value that that brings to the equation.

Would you lean into that language? Is that what you want to recommend of like, hey, you know, before we get into, you know, like, obviously this crazy world, but. But, you know, I'd really want to, you know, before we lean in on solving all the world's problems, like, I'd rather just be able to connect with you, you know, on this. This thing. Would that be okay? Would that. Is that something that you would encourage Sharon or.

You know, always in rt, we always think about, just do it. Don't talk about what you're doing, just do it. And I would lean more towards that. Just be loving. Just engage them in a game just right.

And I might like, as part of your four steps, as you get ready to step in, I might say I'm going to bring a stack of cards so that I could sit and initiate a card game. Rather than talk about the language before we step in and doing it and saying, hey, we used to love playing, you know, this card game together. Go fish. So how about we go play go fish? Or how about we go right? And then as you've built that, then you're. You've already engaged that. Right. So just be thinking of it as a part of a strategy as you're doing your four steps before you show up. So you're showing up calm, regulated, and ready.

So y' all ready to move on? Yeah.

Yeah. We got two big topics.

I'm just thinking about the questions, but.

I want to move on.

We have about 20 minutes. Dee Dee, so good. So, dede, if you could take, you know, a few of those and talk about the. All the research you've done on the overall picture of families.

And I'll just. So. So I'll. I'll just do a real quick. I mean, some of the stats. 129. More than 20. 129 million u. S. Adults are estranged from some member of their family. And that's. One in two people have estrangement in some member of their family. One. So you think about how that affects the holidays. 67 million adults are estranged from an immediate family member. So one of their family of origin members. That's 67 million. That's one in five people. And then one in six is over some political issue. Some of the reasons that we experience, you know, estrangement, some of the most common are diverging values and beliefs. Right. That we have beliefs or values that are a little bit different. Past conflict or conflict or miscommunication that has happened that we never resolved effectively. That comes into play could be struggles around the issue of individuation and autonomy. As you've grown into adulthood. A lot of people talk about when your kids get married, how that separates the family. And we don't really have a way to individuate or engage in individual relationships without we don't do the work of knowing how to hold that space. Well, could be mental health issues that are impacting it from any member of the family. We all know in the clinical realm how mental health impacts the system. And then lastly, it could be abuse, like things that have happened in the past. That and there are other issues, but these are just the most common that we have found are consistent in estrangement. And here's the crazy thing. Holidays are often the initiators. A lot of times, some of these conversations, there's so much tension that's built up. We step into a holiday situation or a family barbecue or a family reunion, and we've got so much anxiety pent up as we walk in. We're just waiting for the moment that there can be a volcanic event. Most estrangement happens because there's an event. It doesn't even have to be a big one. It can be a miscommunication at the Thanksgiving dinner table or at Christmas Eve service that initiates and says, well, this means all of these things I have thought are real. And so you are no longer a safe person for me to be engaged with. And so a lot of family estrangement happens at a volcanic event at one of these family gatherings that impacts it. And it could just be what defines kind of a season of a long term issue that has gone on between family members. Often a party's confused somebody. Usually in family estrangement, you got one group standing on the other side going, I don't know what happened. I honestly don't know how this turned into estrangement or why there's a cutoff and somebody who's really upset about it. This isn't an issue of gender, race, socioeconomic class. Like it's across the board, the only place where you see a greater surgeon. So family estrangement is really in the middle age, like 30 to 50s. And what they say, the reason why is that you're in the category of having kids, grow up, hit adulthood, get married and start new families. And so in that demographic, that age demographic, we see a lot more family estrangement. And it creates a lot of collateral damage. I mean, we know when one person doesn't show up to Thanksgiving because they're mad at somebody in the family, it impacts the whole family. Right? It impacts the family. That's Choosing to be estranged and cut off it. It doesn't just impact one person. So, yeah, those are a couple of things that I want to leave the bulk of the time, but I thought those were important components, you know, a big picture of how much this is impacting culture, where it comes from, and what are the common causes. Okay.

Didi, would you do that list just once again of the five?

Yeah. So a divergence in family values or in values, beliefs or convictions, a conflict or communication difficulty that was never resolved. You just didn't learn how to manage conflict and communicate well through that. Individual development and autonomy. As we grow up, we don't know how to separate from our families and stay connected. So how to grow into autonomy, Mental health issues that impact us or abuse, systems of abuse, whether it's emotional or. Or past abuses that have happened in other areas that impact our ability to stay connected.

Sharon, that handout you sent ahead of time, it has those categories that it does not. Oh, well, I was just. Are you sure? Because she was going down the list of the five.

Yeah, I guess. I guess it does. It does. Okay.

Yeah.

I was just wondering if that's something we could post in the show notes. Is that helpful for people listening to reading? Okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm not trying to find this handout that was sent.

I want to say something real quick and we can get. I was telling Terry this week, Gonzaga sent out, you know, their email that they send out every couple of weeks to parents and family. But it was basically seven questions to think about with your returning college student. And it was super helpful. And as a therapist, I thought, like, I was prepared. They just had me thinking about my daughter. Hayden is coming back. She is individuated in many ways that she never has before. She's away at college. She's being challenged with different views. She's going to want to come and see friends, maybe even more than us. She's going to want to chill and rest. And there's all these things they just had us think through. And so it led to a conversation with Heather and I to, oh, this is like super helpful. Like, we thought we were kind of on top of it, but we have a child coming home from college who's not a child, who's an adult, and our family is being reorganized and we want to make sure that we're in our pain cycle or not pain cycle, in our peace cycle, working through it, you know. So anyways, I just wanted to say that that was like super helpful and I'm glad they did that and sent that to us.

And I think those are the kind of things, Rhett, where family estrangement can happen. Begin is if kids come home from college and their parents are constantly mad at them because they rather spend time with their friends than their parents. It begins the tension right there. Or they're yelling at their kids to get them out of bed. I mean, these kids come home after finals week, they're exhausted. They've been celebrating with their friends. And you can start a division right there by yelling at them, as the kids can start the division by not having any empathy toward the fact that their parents want to spend time with them. Right. Or any understanding of, gosh, mom fixed this big breakfast to celebrate my being home. I need to get out of bed and go eat it. You know, so it starts on both sides. And I think that's what. That's part of what I think as we look at the questions that Dede and I've been talking a lot about is where does the estrangement begin? And the terminology she and I were talking the other day that we kind of landed on, I think is as therapists, it feels like often we enter the story of estrangement midstream. It's already happened.

We're, like, down. We're, like, getting ready to go over the waterfall, usually.

Yeah, yeah. We're midstream. We're getting ready over the waterfall. And we take that bait. And what Dede and I are talking about is we want to help therapists not take the bait of starting midstream right before you fall over the waterfall.

Right.

So an example of something Dede just said a few minutes ago is a lot of people my age and younger will say, our kids cut off from us. We have no idea what happened. And I gotta say, yeah, you probably do. You know, and that on this. On this list of questions that I sent you, just. It's like, when did you first. There was tension in the relationship? You know, what are some of the things you've done to try to reduce the tension? How are you notified of the cutoff? And just questions like that or, you know, what problems has this created for you? So we're getting the story where it begins.

Yeah.

And when we get the story where it begins, we can. Okay, what are we always doing in restoration therapy? We're mapping pain cycles.

Yeah.

Pain cycles are being activated when my college student comes home and doesn't want to see me and wants to spend time with all their friends. Right.

Not rattail.

To help people our age. People that are parents of adult children say, there's a history here. Your kids just didn't wake up one morning and say, I'm done with these people. What part did you play in that? How have you reacted to them? And then the flip side of that, also, for the person that comes to therapy that is cut off from their family, that has chosen to cut off, we start midstream, we get the story of the moment where they cut off, and we forget to go back and ask some of the questions on here. When did you first think about cutting off from your family? Who's encouraged you to cut off from your family?

Where'd you even learn that term? Where did you learn. Where did you learn about cut off?

Instagram podcast.

Yeah, exactly.

New Year's resolution.

How do you think this is going to help your problem?

Right.

You know, these kind of questions that say, where did you get this idea? And, you know, I was even thinking about how deep those things can go because they say, well, it's my spouse that really thinks that we ought to be cut off. I can tell you, I have friends who are cut off from their children because the spouse thinks they ought to be cut off. And I want to say, you know what? That's a marital problem.

Yeah, right.

Come on.

That's a marital problem. So the depth of what we need to understand. And again, as RT therapists, we don't need five and a half sessions to understand the pain cycle, to understand where these things came from.

Yeah.

We can quickly begin to identify how people were interacting in the family in their own sense of pain. And we can help them take responsibility for what's happened instead of playing this game of, these people are going to come to therapy and they're going to tell me about how awful their families are, and all I can do is empathize with them. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Any therapist knows that.

Yeah. And the impact it can have even as we're talking. And Rhett, even using your scenario that hits the individuation, like, we don't really have a lot of literature that equips families to know how to step into these new transitional moments where your kids are totally different and their needs change. And so to set. Imagine the power that a therapist has that can address, hey, we're responding in pain. This cutoff is really a reaction to pain. Let's go back and let's begin a conversation that talks about, what were you expecting? Let's talk about some of the expectations. Where did you learn that those were okay, what's reasonable to expect? What's the value? What's the hope for you as you think about what do you want your family to look like? What's going to be the vision of family that's going to drive the way we step into this? What do you hope you would have relationally with your kids? What do you hope and what needs are you trying to get met by your kid now here? For parents that have a kid that are coming, that's coming home, it's painful. So how do we help them know how to hold the pain of their kids individuation? I wish somebody had talked to me about this before we dropped my first kid off at college because it just sort of felt like she was flap, flap, flapping away. And nobody prepared my heart for the fact that she'd want to get away from me. You know what I mean? And that, that wasn't about me, that wasn't because she didn't like me. It was because that was her job. Her job right then was to become a young woman with her own ideas and her own set of values and her own set of convictions. But I, you know, what power we have as therapists to normalize some of these seasons of life, particularly when it comes around individuation and autonomy and kids getting married and re establishing relationship with a child and then their spouse and what we can do in that area. We have so much influence and ability to do such great good as we help people understand the pain that it's activating in them, understand the expectations that they have and where those are coming from.

Yeah, and I just think of one of the categories as mental health issues and I think of all the diagnosing that goes on because we have all these pop psychology books out. Well, my mom's, you know, borderline or my dad's a narcissist or you know, and just stopping, slowing people enough to say where were they diagnosed that by a professional or where did this diagnosis come from? Or you know, I, I've even heard people tell me that their therapist has told them that their parent was a borderline or a narcissist. And I think that therapist has not even met that person. And for them to be diagnosing people that they've never met.

Right.

We don't do that in therapy. We shouldn't be doing that. So, you know, even this idea of, of where did your belief, what Dede was talking about, I think is so important. Where did your belief about your family system or your father or your mother or your adult Child, where did this come from? How can we help you understand your world from a different viewpoint than the fact that people around you are doing it all wrong? You know.

It'S heavy.

I know. I have so many thoughts. I'm trying to think what would be useful.

Well, I was also thinking, though it's interesting, in a family, you know, you got your own parents who are aging, you got your kids you're trying to raise who are adults, got your marriage, you got other people, and everyone is coming in around a table with all kinds of different moving pieces. If you were to map it out on a wall, it'd be very complex.

Yeah.

You know, and I guess we can only start with, huh.

I gotta say, that's the joy of rt. The only person I have to worry about at that table is you.

Yeah, that's what I was just going to say. All I have control of is how I decide to show up that day at the dinner table.

Yeah. And, and, and honestly, that makes a huge difference. It makes all the difference when I can choose how I'm going to show up and how I'm going to step into the door. And, you know, for. For a lot of us, we need to be doing our four steps the week prior to when. Whenever that feeling of dread or stress or anxiety comes over us, we need to recognize we're either going to feed the pain, we're going to feed that part of us that's feeding our anxious response, or we're going to get balanced right, and we're going to feed a little sense of peace, and we're going to begin to build a process that says I get to show up in the way. I get to show up in peace. I can show up as calm. And so really doing the work not just as I step in or not just as I'm sitting at the dinner table, but in this week before Thanksgiving, in the weeks that come before Christmas, that we're really doing that work of stepping into our four steps and using it as a way to help us. I get to choose how I show up. I get to choose. I can be calm here. I can show up in a way that builds connection. I can control what I have power over, and that's me and my decisions. I can be thoughtful about the things that I bring. And let's bring a puzzle, let's bring a gingerbread house to make. Let's. Like, I can choose the things that I create that build and, and demonstrate. Like the do it portion that demonstrate. Here's what we can do to Build good into this moment.

And can I. I mean, we don't have a lot of time, but I was thinking about this realm of safety and how we can create safety. I think about, like, families where alcohol is like, starts flying and things go. Go out of control, or families where you have children and you, like, there's really unhealthy dynamics that are going on and you bring your children. It's about the 30s to 50s, like, where, like, people are like, I don't want my kids to see the way they interact. How do you like, for therapists when it comes to these things? Like, what is. Where are you encouraging people to. On how to interact in these types of situations? Because I feel like that's kind of like the prevalent thing that comes into the therapy office.

To your earlier comment, sometimes you drive six hours and stay two hours and get in the car and drive away. I mean, you set up things that make it safe. I mean, you know, when we think about safety in rt, we're always saying, you're empowered to make choice.

Yes.

You're not alone and you can do hard things. You know, And I think. I think sometimes those situations that are like, more than just we're tense with each other because we don't agree on things. It's like, you know, we're coming on Thanksgiving, but we just need to know if the day moves to where people are too inebriated, we'll be leaving.

Yeah.

Just so, you know, up front. So there's no. There's no. And then you don't scream and yell as you run out the door saying, y' all are horrible alcoholics. You say, you know what? That ceiling has been hit and we're going home.

And I want you to capture too, if you do your four steps, I mean, Sharon's talking about these idea of healthy boundaries, like healthy, boundaried relationships that allow us not to. Our only option isn't cut off. Right. We can be setting these things up in advance. So whether that's a conversation with your spouse where you're getting into agreement about what that day looks like, whether that's a phone call that says, hey, we're going to be so excited about coming. Here's something we're worried about, and we just want to be clear on the front end. If there. If there's excessive drinking, we'll probably remove ourselves and we'll just do it quietly. But we just want you to know we're not comfortable with that. So here's where we're going to establish that boundary and so and so being thoughtful and mindful in advance of the things that are safety issues that come up where you're saying I need to make this decision so that we'll stay safe. And I love Sharon. I love your example of the six hour drive. Two hours there. Six hour drive. That's sacrificial relationship, you guys. That is. I am willing to get in a car for 12 because you're so important to me. That 12 hour drive is worth two hours of time with you. Like, I. I just want you to see that different. That's an exchange. Right. It isn't. It didn't have no cost. It means the relationship matters enough for me to be there. We're going to protect it from getting to a place that it could do damage. Right. That two hour window there. And I don't even know the story, but it's a protective measure. I want to protect the best parts of what our family can be. And then I'm going to move out before it becomes something that would be destructive to our essence as a family. Right.

The comment on that is one of the things Terry's family would do is when they all get together, they would break off into groups and go talk about other people. So when we. And they go get ice or they'd go get this or they'd go get that. And so when we said we're only here for two hours, everybody stayed.

Yeah.

Nobody broke off and went anywhere.

It was miraculous.

I mean, it was amazing.

Those boundaries help protect the relationships. Right. And they're not used punitively. They're not used to do damage to people. They're used to say, here, let it. Let's enjoy the best parts of us. And then let's protect from stepping into parts that would be damaging or do harm.

What do you. Do you think the four of us offline can figure out a time to meet before Christmas and do another one? We can go a little longer.

I'm up for it.

I'm up for it. Absolutely.

Can we. And this document, is this something we can like with these questions?

Yes.

Do you want to just say what it is real quick so everybody knows and they can. And where I'll be.

Basically what it is is just kind of helping people get to the deeper part of what's going on in the family dynamic is not starting midstream. That's kind of what Dede and I hit on the other day. We want to help people start with family estrangement, with the beginning of the story. Not. Here's the blow up has happened. How am I going to fix this? So. And again, you don't need hours and hours and hours to figure out what happened. You can probably do that fairly quickly with the right questions. So these are just questions in each of the categories that. Thank you, Rep, for pointing that out in each of the categories that Dede mentioned. And then some initial questions for the person who's been cut off and the person who has cut off that help you get a fuller picture of the problem.

Love it.

What. Would you add anything to that?

I think you. I think you did great. Yeah. And I. This is just an incredibly helpful resource. You know, just as a guide to say, hey, let's. Let's just do a little work to go back a little further and not just stay in the moment of pain. Let's go back a little further.

And this is a. This is a really important conversation for all of us. It's. I just want to point that out that we fell into the time trap leading up to Thanksgiving. Everyone's just like, unfortunately, we're all super busy. But I. I do want to highlight, like, I think this is really important. And I think, Sharon, a lot about what you said a lot over the last year about the importance of working to have healthy relationships and not just cutting people off. Like, that sticks in my head all the time when I'm working with clients and when I'm working in my own life. And so I do want to dive deeper into this and for us to be thinking about it, because it doesn't just start here at Thanksgiving or, you know, we're going to be in the holidays here for a while, and then it goes to the rest of the year. And so I think these are things that are really important. So just for people listening, we will circle back to this here shortly and I'll post everything, all the notes and everything in substack and other areas and take this conversation further.

So.

But thank you all for joining us today. Appreciate it.

Good stuff.

And happy Thanksgiving.

Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving. Great to see you guys.

See you guys.

Okay, bye.

Bye.