Season 1 | Episode 47 | Network Building with Lance and Rhett

Yeah, I like it.

Hey, dude. Happy birthday, dude.

Thank you so much. There's nothing more I'd like to do on my birthday than hang out with Rhett.

So 29 again.

Don't I look 29? I looked at pictures of myself when I was 29. I do not look like that anymore, bro.

I saw pictures of you and Jennifer online and I was like, man, who's that young guy with her?

I know. I don't know what happened to me, bro. I looked in the mirror one day.

I know. Since it's your birthday, I'm catching you off from surfing. I'm just getting you off like the waves here, right? You're like just rolled in from the beach.

You know, sad news. I surf every Monday, guys.

And.

Like it's, it's like come hell or high water, we're there. And today there was no waves.

Ah.

So instead I had to walk the beach with my buddies. And then while we were walking the beach, we came across a seal, which was really fun. Just beached on the side. He just hanging out. He had his arm up in the air waving to us. It was awesome. So.

Oh, by the way, Lance, this is episode 47 of the RT Dialogue.

We're at 47.

Yep, 47.

They said it couldn't be done.

We wanted to talk about. We want to take a little bit of pivot. What we. From what we normally talk about. Yeah. On this podcast, you and I are just going to be bantering here. Hopefully it's more helpful than just banter. Yeah. And that is. We're not going to get into the weeds today. Totally. Because we can, we could. We probably need like a four hour episode and we need other people on as well. But one of the things that comes up a lot in our community is just around practice building. Yeah. And I think a lot of it is around like networking and how you network now. I'm in a private practice. It's just me. I have colleagues around me, but that's my own practice. I've not been. I've also been in like a group practice where we're all private, but we're like in a group practice. Did that for a lot of years. Been in community mental health. But I'm in private now. And you are. You have a big group practice.

I mean, it's a good size. I want to call it.

Okay. Good size. It's like.

That we have some dynamite team players on our, on our, on our, in our crew. So I think that's the, the size that you probably feel Is the, the power of our group?

Yeah, it's. It is the RT center on the west coast there? Pretty much.

That's right. I had to ask. I actually asked Terry when I named my therapy center, I was like, hey, Terry, could I name my name it the Restoration Therapy Center? And he, like, smiled at me. He's like, you know, Lance, you might want to call it the Restoration Therapy center of San Diego. It's like, oh, yeah. There probably will be others, which there are.

You put capital V T H E E. The Restoration.

We are the one.

Yeah. So I thought it'd be helpful to talk about. And again, you and I are not the be all end all here on this, but we've been doing this for a while. We're pretty plugged in a lot of areas. We've also picked a lot of people's brains to get to certain places where we're at. And so I thought it'd be helpful just for a bit to discuss, like, how does one go about thinking about, like, building a network or what a network is if they're in practice, whether that's private practice, group practice, community, community, mental health. Right. Because we're all dependent upon these networks that we foster.

Yeah, yeah. I think it's a good, good, you know, thing to kind of discuss today. I think there's a lot of ways to do it and there's things that are, that I've done along the way that I've done, like, little and things that I've done a lot. So it is kind of a trial and error thing that I've done over the years.

Well, and I thought about it because we're ending the year and people are thinking, you know, they come out in the new year and think about all the things they want to do differently. And I've been bumping up against a lot of new, new, like, practitioners in the RT community who are asking me about, like, building a private practice. And I get a call once a week maybe from somebody in the community, a new student who's found me online, or someone who wants to grab coffee to talk about building a practice and stuff. And so, yeah, I thought it would be helpful. And so let me start. Let me ask you. I'll ask you the question. So if you are a therapist and you're thinking about your network and you're thinking about, okay, what are the important pieces that I need to build a successful network that will be this like, pipeline, like, referral base for my therapy that I do, what would you tell them? Like, what are the important pieces to think about that could be the people or just different components. Like, what would you say?

I mean, I think the first thing is this is one of the things I think is really important for a therapist is to kind of figure out what do you want to be about? You know, what is. What is that thing that you really care about when it comes to therapy? We know, like, this is the RT dialogue. So we know everybody, hopefully, or maybe there's some interest people. I. I guess. I'm guessing if you've made it 47 episodes in, you're probably in it a little bit deeper. But outside of Restoration Therapy, like, what are the things that you're passionate about? And to find those windows in whether it's another practitioner that's doing that work, whether it's someone that's on the front lines that's doing that work, or even thinking through different organizations that are doing work in that realm, Those are the three windows I always think about.

How did you. When you thought about building the RT center there of San Diego, like, how did you think about, like, your network?

Yeah, I mean, for me, when I was building the. The network here, one of the things that helped me out a lot was actually this thing. It used to be called Strong Marriages Successful Ministries. And they decided, that's such a mouthful. Let's just call it Relate Strong. And one of the things I'm really passionate about is faith and integration. And one of the cool parts with the. When they initially created Relate Strong was like, it was designed to work with people in ministry. So what I would do is I would offer the Relate Strong work with four different couples who are practitioners. And we got to deal. At one point, we had to deal with a seminary, a local seminary. And then we also had another deal with the Baptist Coalition here, or Southern Baptist, whatever they're called. And they. They funded us to be able to work with their pastors and really form some amazing relationships with these pastors. And then, you know, after that, you know, some of them asked me to speak at their churches, and it was. It just really fostered a really cool relationship. And they all learned the language of restoration therapy. So we. We all knew the language of pain and peace cycle. Really good. That was. That was one of the big things, like, with my faith specifically, was using the Relate Strong to offer it to a hurt for. For a community to meet those. Those pain points.

So for people listening who are part of the RT community, you would say, like, connecting with the Relate Strong model.

Yeah.

And offering that in your practice. Or a continuation of, like, say a couple goes and does relate strong, that they can follow up, work with you and making that kind of explicit and known.

Yeah, exactly. And it's really nice because it's very clear there's a timeline attached to it. So I was talking with kind of like the bishop, they call him like a district superintendent or something like that of the area here in San Diego. And, you know, he was like, oh, this is great. How about we have you start with this one group and then we'll have you go from there. So we just use relationship after relationship. And the good thing is that, you know, restoration therapy works. It's easily integrated. So it's like one of those things that, you know, it just kind of built it. It's really built itself out from there.

So would you recommend somebody, if they haven't, to, like, look for a church in the area, some kind of ministry, and to set up an appointment with them to go to coffee and say, hey, I. This is who I am. I'm a therapist in the area. I'm a person of faith and I have this. There's this great model and talk about Relate Strong and see if you can form like some kind of partnership or at least have a conversation with them that. That your practice would be a good off ramp for. Yeah, not an off ramp. Good on ramp.

Really?

For couples.

Absolutely. And I'd even. I even go further and say talk to the, like, the bigger kind of the next up, like, find the organization of all the churches that are in the community. Because then you're working not with just one church, but you have multiple churches that you're helping out.

Yeah.

Because, like, if you do relate strong with just one church, you know, you're talking about. You know, everyone's talking about their pain and peace cycle. So I think it creates a little bit more safety if you're using the different churches that are in the community.

So for building a network, one of the things you think is important is like using a model like Relate Strong. That's our part of our RT community. And to advertise that as something that you do.

Yeah, yeah, It's. It's something. We have something we can offer, something that we can do. Sorry, my dog's knocking at the door. One second here.

This dog is today.

Today is my dog's birthday as well.

Oh, okay. It's awesome.

This is Lucy. Good.

No, here's my question. So you and I came from pastoral backgrounds and did our M. Divis. And. And so it was really easy when I was. They always. They would always call it the pastor card with me. Oh. Like, Rhett could contact a pastor and meet him for lunch, and the pastor would just go meet him because he used to be a pastor, or I'd go sit down with the youth pastors and stuff. And so one of the things I did early in my practice was I met with lots of people in ministry, and I still do in ministry. And ministry leaders, in my experience, are often the gatekeepers of. Of, like, who the therapists are in the community. You know, most churches have a vetted list of the therapists that they see. Right. At least in my area.

Oh, yeah, ours too.

So I made it. I thought that I'm going to have a practice. It's important that I have pastors that I have really good relationships with. And so that was pretty easy for me to do. I felt really comfortable doing that. I don't know if everybody feels comfortable connecting with pastors or reaching out to churches. And so I'm just wondering if you had any, like, advice, wisdom of how to go about doing that, to reach.

Out to a church specifically or. Yeah, like, here's the thing.

Late, strong, or just your therapy services. And we're trying to build a network. I think ministry leaders, churches are one of the most important pieces of our network that we can have that think therapy is important and that we need to have, and then we need to have relationships with them. But not everybody feels comfortable fostering that, doesn't know how to. So I'm just wondering what you would recommend first off there.

I mean, it is. There are so many people that are struggling in church environments, and pastors are, like, longing for that right person. Right. To be able to refer to. I will tell you along the way, I've had a few that we did not get along with because, you know, pastors, you know, sometimes attracts a certain type of population. So I would just say that, you know, keep on knocking at the door and offering. The. Being very clear on what you're offering is really helpful, you know, and. And letting them. I see pastors, I. I do like 10 sessions for free with most pastors so that they can really get acquainted with me and allows for us to be able to, you know, be connected.

You do 10 sessions for free?

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Back in the day when I was a pastor, I had a dentist that gave me like a ton of free dental work because I had a pretty bad chompers.

So you're like, giving.

Paying it forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I also. Not with Every pastor. But I do a discounted rate for certain communities of pastors and stuff and people that I work with. Because at any given time I can have about 20 pastors on my therapy, like current list, not every week, but on my list that sees itself through in that month usually. And so gotta charge something sometimes, otherwise my doors might close.

Well, they, they end up being like your big referrals.

They do. I do. They, they do. I would say my, my estimate is, and this is kind of, I haven't pulled all the numbers up, but I would say at least a third or more of my clients come directly from the churches that I have relationships with. Probably more. Yeah.

And you think about how much people pour into like, you know, writing blogs and doing stuff like that, like where you're like kind of like, it's kind of like this hidden work, but the minute you're connecting with, you know, people in the street, that has so much more payoff. So being able to do that and really developing those relationships, I'm not dogging blogs, just saying like you're spending your time with people in the community generally pays back a lot better.

Yeah, I mean, and I wrote a blog starting in like 03 to 0, not 2003 to 2022 maybe. And it led to a lot of in person relationships. But like, yeah, boots on the ground, face to face is the most critical. And when people are thinking about somebody in crisis, they're remembering the lunch they had with you or the coffee they had with you, not some article that they read that you posted or some social media, I think, post that you posted. So if we're building a network, I guess you and I are keying in on the fact that ministry leaders, people in the faith community are really important and that we have a model both with Relate Strong and restoration therapy in general and the integration pieces that are so critical as we think about our practices. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, I definitely say that. I'll tell you one of the things that Terry told me back in the day when I was starting my own practice, which is 10 years ago, when I went out on my own, Terry said, look, here's the deal. If you want to be successful, you need 60 to 80 people singing your good name. And if you have 60, 80 people singing your good name, then you can really build a client load.

Yeah.

And, and I, I find that, you know, with my, my associates, the team, I grow up, that I'm growing that, you know, getting, getting their name out there in, in that way makes a big Difference. And if you're talking to a church like that, that. That gives you that much wider of a. Of a net where people can hear your good name.

Yeah, I started in 2010 is when I went out on my own officially, and people told me it would take probably three years, and it took about two to three years of just kind of getting the name out there, you know. Who else would you say, when you think about network, who are the people that you think should be a part of that network?

Yeah, I always think about, like, what you. What. What are you passionate about? You know, one of the other areas I was really passionate about was helping people that served in the military. Right. So I worked at the San Diego Vet center back in the day. That was this for, you know, this agency that was connected with the va, but outside the va that helped people who had been, you know, in armed conflict or who had been. Had been a victim of military sexual trauma. And so I was connected with those people. And then I got connected on base, and I would do little things on base. I. I did like a premarital class for the chaplains on base. So it's just kind of like really getting to know people and then just saying, hey, I love to help and I'm here to help. So I would go on. I would go on base and I teach people about their pain and peace cycles as a part of their premarital course. So just finding, you know, so it's all about, what do I like? You know, if you. If you're into, you know, addictions, you know, connect with all your local AA groups, connect with your rehab centers, be offer your services to come in and speak just for like one session here or there. Um, so. So you find your. Your thing that you love and. And you go from there. You know, if you like. I mean, you like sports, right? You know, we talked about this beforehand. You know, go talk to, you know, the local ads that are in your area, athletic directors at the local high schools, or go talk to the big sports team. Like, you just kind of like you're slowly, you know, just making. Knocking on those doors and you know you're going to get no, but it only takes a few yeses before things start really blossoming.

Yeah, no, I. That's a good segue. I like sports. And so I started recognizing that my sports Cairo guy, kind of PT guy who kept me on my feet all these years, who I still work with, that everybody tells him everything when they're on his table.

Yeah.

And so him. And I started like forming a friendship around that. And he started referring people to me. And I get quite a few referrals from my sports. My sports Cairo guy, because people are on his table and they're in pain and they usually talk. And so that had me start thinking down the road of who are the other people in the community that are who people people talk to a lot, who therapists don't often think about as referral networks. And I realized, oh, people who cut hair, who do hair are therapists often who refer. So I started talking to people and getting. Having a friendship with some different people in the community who do hair. And all of a sudden referrals start rolling in from them because someone's in their chair for an hour, two hours, three hours. Same with like a massage therapist and stuff. So I started thinking about who are the people, huh?

Realtors.

Realtors, yeah. People in the community who therapists often don't hit up because everybody hits up other therapists, which is good. We should do that. Yes, or psychiatrists, which is good too, or doctors and stuff. But there's a lot of people who, we don't think about who, who have people's ear, who people go to them and often tell a lot of stories about their pain and who can be a good. Just part of your network. So I was thinking about that. What about when it comes to therapists, who are you looking to network with typically? Is it someone who doesn't do what you do specifically?

Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah. So for me, like, you know, I love doing couples work and I like individual work too. But, you know, so. But a lot of, a lot of therapists hate couples work. So I always talk to my, to therapists that are in town, like, hey, you know, if you ever have a couple you need to send my way, I do intensive work. You know, you have to have this like, little thing that you do that's a little bit different. I think that's the, that's the thing that, that makes a difference that for, for them, like, oh, yeah, I'm really experiential therapist. So people are like, oh yeah, like, you should probably go see Lance because he's going to get you. Like, you probably. You don't really like sitting here just talking to you. You know, go see Lance. He's going to make you, like, do weird stuff and you're going to get way better, you know, so just local therapists that, that are in town and, you know, like, if I get a referral, I'll always call and Be like, hey, thanks so much for referring that person to me, you know, or if they are seeing a therapist in their individual work, I'll call the therapist, you know, or the school or whatever.

Yeah. So you're thinking, like, think about people who, who do, like, differentiating work from you then, you know, so I, I work with a lot of couples too, you know, so often I don't usually will network with other couples therapists. I will sometimes like, maybe like a female, you know, therapist and stuff. But what I find is I have a lot of people who want to refer men to me. One, because I'm a male. You know, in this area, there's not tons of male therapists. And so I spend a lot of time just like going to other therapists who I know don't want to work with men, you know. Yeah.

What I know we're just kind of like.

Thinking out loud here, but someone.

Once told me, rhett, do you ever talk to him about this?

For people who aren't watching, Lance is holding up my book, what It Means to Be a Man. Yeah. You know, I wrote that book. I wanted something short that a guy could read and get through.

So.

Good.

Yeah, sorry.

No. I had someone tell me one time, like a mentor, hey, you can build a successful practice with like three, like three or three referral networks. You know, like a pastor or a church refers to you a lot, a psychiatrist refers to you a lot, and then like another therapist refers to you a lot. And I, when they first told me that, I was like, really? And I've actually found it to be true that when I go through my list at the end of the year of who referred to me, it's pretty strongly a core group of people.

Yeah. Now, are you private pay or are you insurance?

I'm private pay.

Yeah. So the work of a private pay therapist, like, we do have to grind a little bit more because we don't have as much referral coming in. Martial was on here a while back. He. He's like one of my guys that treat me and I take tricare as one of my. It's the only insurance I take. But he, he calls it his bread and butter work. You know, he's like, it's not the meat and potatoes, but his bread and butter. So it's sometimes good to know your bread and butter work and. And being willing to do that work as well.

Yeah. You know, that's good that you brought that up is there's a huge difference of if you're going to take insurance or Private pay.

Yeah.

My experience is a lot of therapists move into private pay sometimes, and they kind of expect people just to magically show up. They were used to, like, the insurance network coming and people, you know, and. And if you're going to do private pay, you have to get out and you have to market yourself.

Yeah.

And you gotta speak and talk to people and just do different things.

Yeah. And the gift of doing restoration therapy, though, is that this therapy that we offer is one that isn't designed to see people for the rest of their lives. Right.

Yeah.

So I think that's one of the gifts of being a restoration therapist is like, look, you. You could, like, literally go to therapy for the Next, you know, 20 years of your life, or you could come see me for, you know, 12 to 20 sessions, and I can get you. I can give you the skills that you need as. And. And help you to be. To be able to move into the wholeness of who you're meant to be. Um, so I think there's, you know, being. Being willing to have that conversation with someone on the phone. Not to denigrate what people do with insurance work, but, you know, I think it's important to find restoration a restoration therapist because that's. That work is work that's gonna. It's about moving on, not about just like, you know, studying our navels.

Yeah. And, you know, the only thing that's changed, the reason I don't take insurance is when I was early on doing my practicum hours, my. My mentor, who was amazing, who was my supervisor, he was at that time, he was like, about. About 70. And he said, you know, that the insurance game took his love out of therapy, took the Levado therapy for him. And I know it's a lot different now. I know there's tools like simple practice where you can click a button and that stuff all goes through. But if you ever were in a therapy office back in the day, you would just see paperwork everywhere and insurance claims and files. And he said to me, rhett, if you can do therapy and not take insurance, I'd recommend it. And so I just started that journey and I never have. And so, you know. Yeah, sometimes I think some weeks might be a little bit slower compared to some people who have, like, a huge load coming in through insurance. I also do some pro bono work and some discounted amount of sessions for other people to try to, like, make up for that, you know. But I. Yeah, it does take. There is a difference. You gotta kind of hustle a little bit. Differently. You know, we're talking about this just because I think you and I, we get a lot of questions from people, and a lot of people in our community, a lot have been doing this for a long time and could have. Have a lot better answers than you and I. I know, right? Others are brand new. And so I just wanted to. I think we wanted to just put some ideas out there, but I think what we're excited about, too, is that. And the reason we started this podcast is we're trying to build this community of RT therapists, and we want this to be a hub and a base. Like, I want to be able to say, oh, you're in Phoenix. You need to go see Michael Pachucco or Nancy. Yeah. Center. And do some, you know, if you got a child, you know, then you guys got to go watch that, you know, Four Step song in person with Jennifer.

Turn around.

Right. And so I think that was our hope in trying to, like, network and meet people this year is too. Is like, who are the people in different states that. That are RT therapists and that this can be a hub and a. A big network piece to help spread our RT love.

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of amazing people that we get to connect with. We haven't. Like, we've only gotten the very surface, too. There's so many more that. That we're looking forward to, but that's next season.

Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything else you want to just say about a therapy network, people listening, something for 2026, like a piece of advice or encouragement that you would give them, like, hey, think about this. In 2026, if you want to foster your network or build a new network or connect to a network. Yeah.

I mean, I think the big thing to me is, is to really slow down and think about who needs help, you know, and who you're passionate about, you know, to. To really get into that, you know, heart. You know, we. We were just at a conference, you know, the Buchner quote that Megan put up there on, you know. Yeah. Like our calling. Like to. To really lean into your calling about, you know, where. Where our deep passion is that our.

Passion, the place God calls you to, is the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet.

Yeah. I would really encourage people to sit with that.

Let me read that again. The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet. It's the intersection of what. Where you feel glad. I would call that joy almost and the world needs me. Like, where's intersection of what you're excited to do and where people are hurting?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, for. For Jennifer and I, like, when we were like, really praying about this, you know, in our usness, we came up with these three words. Healing, hope, and freedom, you know, and. And that was like the biggest. Like, that's our true north. We.

We.

We always lean into things where healing, hope and freedom are engaged. And then I think we can get really specific in those realms. But those are kind of like our big, like, principal pieces that we think about. So I would think I would really encourage people to think about what are those things that give you joy? Like, what is your gladness?

You know, name. Not obviously a name of person, but describe, like, two different types of clients. Where your joy and their hunger meets, their pain meets. What does that client look like? Who are those people for you? Like, give me two of them.

Yeah. I mean, to me, it's. It's the person who has. Who is down on their. Down on their life right now. Just things aren't. Something happened, they mess it up. Something they. Something happened to them, you know, wherever they are in the course, typically trauma or something in that realm happened to them. And now they're at this, like, stage of life where they're, you know, this is disorientation, reorientation, like, where they're trying to figure out, what am I going to do now? What's next for me if I can get into somebody that's in the, like, in the midst of that? I think that, to me, it's. You know, I. I got into this place where I'm like, you know, I don't judge people by how they fall. I really like to judge people by how they get back up. And like, to me, like, I. I've seen so many people fall in my life. You know, I've had my own fallings in life, but to me, it's all about, like, how do you get back up? And. And that's. That thing that gives me joy is like, you know, I'm like, you know, rocky, Rocky. It's like he's getting back up, you know, so that. That would be for me. What would you say, Rhett?

Yeah. And it kind of changes. I'm picturing a lot of different people, but one is a male who is just lost in life. And I'm thinking more typically a person who's been successful, and that success does not. It's not all that they thought it would be, or they're moving into. Not retirement necessarily, but a different identity. And their identity has been wrapped up in what they can accomplish and what they do and how they perform. And to meet them in that place of. You used the word earlier, but of disorientation of life has been oriented this way. Now I'm disoriented. And to be able to step into that disorientation with them and help them to find new orientation, like, I get really excited about that. I also, I get really excited working with people of faith, especially the Christian faith, who.

How do I.

How do I put this in words? Like, they're able to see God in a new way through our work because they had God so boxed in in a certain way in their life. And then something happened that, that destroyed that image of who God was or God wasn't real. Yeah. And. And to be able to step in and, and be there and to show that God is still there for them, but in a new and powerful way, I think is really good. I like, I like challenging pastors and people who are in leadership who come in with some theological ideas and it's causing harm in their life. And I like to kind of challenge them in a loving way to see things differently. Like, those things excite me.

I love that too. That reminds me. You're like Seung Chan Ra. You know who that is?

Yeah.

He. His big thing is like, you know, if you get someone that has like a tough, like, theological view, ask them to go deeper with it. They will always end up moving towards a deeper healing path. But if they're, if they're really surface level on their faith, then. Then it's going to have this, like, just this weird impact. So you're kind of like that, Rhett, where you kind of are challenging them, like, hey, go deeper with that. What does that mean to you? Sounds like, like, where else have you read that? Have you considered this?

Yeah, I, I just, I love giving people hope that there is restoration on the other side of this, of this pain that we're in. Dude, you know, been there myself, you know, and, and I, I'm just. It's like, to be able to enter that space of people and, and that excited that we have a model that like, that offers restoration and deep, deep forgiveness and healing is, is easy to sell. Right.

Oh my gosh. That this model is such. I mean, I don't want to be on sales pitch mode, but we're talking networks, so we're going to do it anyways.

Yeah.

Like, this model is like, it's it's this. There's a freedom that's attached to this. It asks us to stop doing our pain cycles and ask us to try out this thing called emotional regulation and to trudge on to this new way of being. And I think, like, this idea Terry talks about the disciple way or the work of virtue. I think that's what we get when we really transition into the deep parts of what restoration therapy offers. And. Yeah, so I'm with you, bro.

I was going to go total sidetrack. I won't. We'll do another podcast. I was listening to an athletic podcast, an ultra endurance podcast the other day, and they asked this psychologist who. Now he's high level, like, high level with these endurance athletes training the brain. And the guy asked him what's probably the most important, like two things, and he said, will, willpower. Which made me think of what's his name? Roy Baumeister, which Terry references a lot, and Ron. And then he said, emotional regulation.

Come on.

And he tied those two pieces together and basically said that high level endurance athlete. There it is. There's the Willpower book, which I'm currently reading by Roy Baumeister and John Tierney. He says you have to have willpower to endure, but then the way that you do that is one's ability to emotionally regulate. Because when you can emotionally regulate, endurance athletes make really bad decisions. Right. They've. They forget to take in their fuel or they miss a turn on the course or. Or all kinds of stuff. And so, yeah, I was like, that's rt. That's RT in the wild right there for Justin Littles in Stephen's podcast. Hopefully one day.

One day.

Okay, let's close with this. We're just kind of been bantering here. I hope this is helpful for people. We just want to kind of get on, talk about network. I want to give people some homework. Homework. Like over the holidays, to launch into 2026, the first thought comes to mind is, is it helpful for everybody to write down this sounds, I know, kind of cliche because you hear it in books, but should we all kind of know, like, who our ideal client is of where that joy, our deep gladness, meets the world's need?

Yeah.

And like write who that is and where that shows up in our communities and. And like, would that be helpful to kind of identify that?

I think that'd be awesome. I mean, just to slow it down, right?

Yeah.

You know, a lot of times. A lot of times it goes back to our own pain, you know?

Yeah.

Our misery is our ministry. It's kind of like the old cliche that's out there, you know, like, so whatever pain you've been through sometimes is that thing that you're. That you're led to. To go to. So, yeah, I would definitely say, hey, take a moment. Right? Let take some time and think about, you know, when you think through your top, you know, 20 clients you've gotten to work with, like, over time, like the ones that, like you. That, you know, when you talk about your clients that really meant a lot to you. Yeah, the ones that, you know, there's those that, like, were. Did a lot to you, but there's ones that meant a lot to you. I would say, like, lean on that. Think about those people that. That you really, you know, just were love working with them and think about their attributes. What was it about that person? What were they struggling with?

Because if we could identify that. Right.

Yeah.

Action steps would be to connect in those communities where those people are that need our help. It also, if we can communicate that verbally to people in our network, like pastors or other colleagues, that's important. It's like when they ask you, what do you work with? Like, what do you do to be able to say, this is where my joy meets people's needs and the work that I love to do.

Yeah, exactly.

Differentiates you.

Yeah. And just make that your. Make that your piece, you know? You know, I mean, it can be. It doesn't have to be always be like Faith Orange. It could be, you know, the. The hobbies that you have, you know, pickleball. Maybe for some of you out there, it's kind of like really up and coming. So maybe like working with old people.

Hey, wait, there's young people playing that. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, sorry.

Old people that play pickleball. We love you. Except for when you kick our butts. I'm talking to you. Karen.

Let's close with this question. You're gonna have to answer. Okay, I gotta answer one too.

Okay.

Based on you die. You and I just talking on this episode.

Talk to me.

What are you gonna do in 2026? What's one that. What's one like community or group of people that you're like, I need to. Actually, I've been thinking about it here while we've been talking. I need to go talk to them and maybe open up some avenues to do work with them or continue work with them.

Yeah, I mean, I think the one thing you and I actually talked about, so I'm gonna steal from.

Okay, let's do it. Yep.

So one thing you and I talked about was doing turning from anxiety for pastors.

Yeah.

Or ministers or whatever it is.

Yeah.

So I think this next year I would like to see. This is what I wrote my dissertation on, so I should actually put it to use a little bit more. So I'd love to see this next year that Lance and Rhett, I'm volunteering you.

No people listening. This is not new. We've been talking about this for a while, actually, so. And actually, you just. I was thinking in a different direction for a minute, but I'm like, no, you know what? Everything I've been saying about challenging pastors and working with pastors and, like, ministry leaders and my love of working with anxiety and doing. And also doing this work not alone. So, like, in an intensive setting, like, you just kind of named it. This is important for 2026 is that you and I need to get on the calendar a ministry leader anxiety intensive.

Yeah. So look forward to the announcement, guys.

Oh, man. Now there's pressure.

We're gonna season, like, before season two. We will announce a date for. For it.

Okay.

All right. All right. Yeah, let's do that. I like how I just named something that you get to do with me.

Yeah.

Well, what about you?

No, that's what we're going to do. That's it. I mean, I was going to say. I'll just say this because it's also important. I plan to circle back to Dee Dee Meyer and do some more. Relates strong training. I've done the training back in the day when it was other names. And I know tons of things have changed since then, but I have a passion to take that model also into some of the churches that I'm working with. I think that would be really helpful. So those are the two really most important things to me, doing that. And then this anxiety intensive.

Boom.

And we'll continue this podcast. So. Well, you know, Lance, we'll find if there's anyone out there listening who loves talking the business of practice building. Yeah. Hit Lance and I up. You can email us@rhett smith.com or lance. Yeah, hit us up and we'll have you on, because we'd love to talk about practice building and being a part of this RT community, because I think there's a lot of people who are interested in it and who have a lot of wisdom and knowledge in it.

So, yeah, it's a worthy endeavor, man.

Yep. All right, man. Happy birthday.

Thanks. Cheers.

Later.