Season 1 | Episode 49 | What are the books we reference a lot in therapy?

Foreign.

What's up, bro? How you been? Good.

49.

Wait, I thought we were 48.

49, man.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Wow. We've. We've gone a long ways.

Gone a long ways.

I can't believe it.

50S. Next.

Wow. That's how old you are?

I will be 51 in January, so.

Dang.

It's getting there. All right, we're gonna get to business quick here.

Okay.

Because we wanted to do a short episode.

Short episode.

Just because it's a busy week.

Okay.

I wanted us to think about what are the, like, few books or authors that, as a therapist, you keep. You keep referring and referencing in therapy. Like, you get up, you pull their book from the shelf, you talk about it all the time. You're quoting them.

Yes.

I'm just curious because I know what mine are, and I'll share mine, but I want to. I want to hear, like, what are those for you? And I count, you know, if you're listening to this and you go to our. If you're on our sub stack, we'd love to see you post on your sub stack, too.

Yeah, that'd be awesome.

What. What your authors are. So I'll mention that at the end. Okay, Lance.

Okay, so I have a few favorites that I'm going to talk about. This is definitely not all of them. I'll name author, like, high level, obviously. Terry Hargrave. We're going to talk about him.

And have you heard of him outside of Restoration Therapy and Mindful Marriage?

So. Okay, this is outside. So this is outside the catalog. This is RT adjacent.

Yeah. Because we're always talking about rt.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, good, good.

True. Which is true.

All right, so I'm gonna name a. A few books here that, to me, I think are good. And then do you want to trade off back and forth?

Sure.

Okay. It'll be funny if we picked the same books.

No. Okay, what's.

Go ahead.

What's a book that you.

Brennan Manning. Abba's Child.

Obvious Child. Brennan Manning, Man.

Guys, this book rocked my world. Has rocked my world over and over again. Whenever somebody asks me a good book, I always recommend this book. This is so great for. Particularly if you're doing integrated work. It. It just really cast a scene of, like, kind of dealing with that. He calls it the False Self and kind of Finding Peace Without False self. And I find it great for anybody struggling with identity work. So if you're working with that client that comes in the room and they hate themselves or, like, they're struggling with that, I always Lean in on Abba's child.

I love it.

What do you got?

All right, you ready?

Do it.

It's like Christmas here. In the name of Jesus.

Oh, he almost grabbed that one. Good.

By Henry Nouwen. I'll tell you why. I've reread it multiple, lots of times. It's short. I used to make my college student leaders read it, too, during the school year. And maybe it hits too deep for me, too, like, personal. But he talks about the temptations to be powerful and spectacular and relevant. Right. And he looks at the. At the.

Which are all three like, things that you are.

Yeah. And for identity work, I say this all the time, because when we're like, I'm working with someone, and they're a Christian, and I want them maybe to meditate or reflect on a passage no one talks about. Mark 1, 9, 11. You are my son, whom I love. With you, I'm well pleased. Right. And Jesus, or God, says that to Jesus as he's standing there in the River Jordan, a dove is descending, and he tells him who he is and who his identity is. Before Jesus has done anything spectacular. Now it's like, he hasn't healed anybody. He's not a miracle worker. He's just this backwoods Nazarene carpenter.

Yeah.

But he knows his truth. His truth is, I'm God's son. I'm God's daughter. Right. You are my son. So obviously, if I'm working with females, I'm like, you are my son. You are my daughter, whom I love. With you, I'm well pleased. And it's so important because then he's thrust into the wilderness, and he's. He's tempted to perform.

Yeah.

Turn bread into stone. Nope, backwards. Turn stone into bread.

That'd be funny.

The temple, you know, let the angel catch you. Make yourself ruler. And so I find myself referencing this book a lot because it's easy for clients to read. I think it hits home hard around these identity issues.

Yeah.

And. And now. And, you know, struggled in his own life, and that comes out in his writing. So I think he's easy. He's a someone people resonate with. So that's awesome. In the name of Jesus, Henry Nouwen.

Love it. Okay, my next one. So we hit identity. Now I want to hit safety, which is Victor Frankel's Man's Search for Meaning. Okay, guys, when you look at the Enneagram, which is this personality scale, I am a high seven, okay? And the seven is known for their need to avoid pain. And sevens do Whatever they can to. To stay away from anything. I am an escape artist in the name of fun. Right, that's in the name of Jesus that you just said. Viktor Frankl takes us into the pain like no other. And what I really like about the book is it really leans in on a lot of the things that we talk about when it talks about regulating people, that how to deal with safety in an unsafe world. And it's really heavy, right, because Viktor Frankl survived the Holocaust. It's his Holocaust story. So it starts off with his Holocaust story where he's just kind of just laying it out there. This is what happened. This is what happened. This is what happened. This is how I got through. This is how I got through this. He's telling stories throughout. And in there, you see the three things that Terry talks about when it talks about being safe in an unsafe world, which are. Are you ready? Number one is to know that we're not alone. Right? I think Victor Frankel talks about this moment where he's with one of his people. That's. That's in there. And there's. First off, they're together as a group, going through this miserable experience together, which helps them. You know, knowing someone else is in pain with you makes a big difference. But there's also this element of, like, not being alone that there's some. Like, he imagined his wife being with him, and they made each other memorize these stories that they would say to their wives once they got out. So this sense of not being alone. Another part is agency, right? And Victor talks about, like, these moments where he has agency. In fact, his. His quote is like, just because they treat you like dogs doesn't mean you have to act like a dog. Right? And I think that's really important in the book is that he talks about this idea of, like, they cannot take away our attitudes, right? So we have. Even though they take away this, they take away that, they take away this, we can still control our attitudes. You know, when I have these clients that are complaining about their miserable spouse, whether it's their husband or their wife, and how they're the meanest person on earth, I'm like, well, you know, Viktor Frankl had to deal with somebody that was, like, threatening to kill them every single day. So I'm sure it's not that bad. But, you know, it's. It's like, you know, just because you're being treated like a dog doesn't mean you have to act like a dog. There's. There's agency there, and Then there's this other piece of like being able. Like when we talk about safety is this idea around knowing that there's something beyond. Right. There's some. There's something that we can learn from this or get from this. And you know, Victor talks about this moment where they were outside of the internment camp and he sees this tree and on the tree he sees a leaf. Right. And. And just the brilliance and the beauty of the leaf that gave him a hope of what he called the. The supernatural. So that there's. There is, there's life beyond this life. There's more that's out there. So anyways, man's search for meaning. Great one. For anybody that's dealing with safety first.

Remember reading that in college. Good book. I am going to say because I have some feeling by the time we end our books might be slightly biased by the fact that we are. Well, you're not middle aged. Too white. Middle age. Christian men skew high heavily to certain thinkers, authors. You know what I'm saying? I'm realizing we might have a lot of the similar guys and the need to diversify our reading list. Is that fair to say?

I would probably agree with that. Yeah.

We'll find out here as we get closer. Okay. Parker Palmer's Let your life speak. Listening for the voice of vocation. I again, another short book that I've reread multiple times over the years. There's two reasons I go to this book a lot. One is he reflects on his own journey of depression throughout the years. Significant depression where he was. He was basically bed. Bedridden for months at a time. And he tells this beautiful story of, of when he was in therapy. And his therapist says to him, because Parker, he had described this. Parker was this performer and he had been flying too high to the sun, if you will. And it all kind of came crashing.

Much like Icarus.

Yes. And at one point during therapy the therapist says to him, parker, I want, I want you to imagine that your depression is the hand of God pushing you down to the ground where it is safe to stand. And he, of course when he therapist said that it was too like that was crazy. What are you talking about? And you know, anything we repeat that's not actually in the therapy room. Kind of sounds crazy anyways sometimes to people. Yeah. But there's this beautiful reframe in the book of how he was able to be in his depression and found this idea of God holding him and making him safe as he was pressed to the ground where for him it was safe. To stand. And I'm not saying everyone should reframe their depression that way, but it's just a beautiful story of a person working their way through depression and finding God in the midst of it. Even as I share it now, I'm not doing it justice. So. And then he reflects a lot on vocation, obviously, which the book is about, and this idea of voce. Voce in Latin, of his voice. So vocation is essentially this voice outside calling you towards something. And so a lot of times that comes up in my therapy work as we're reflecting on vocation or we're talking about depression. And some people just kind of resonate with that story. So. Parker Palmer, Let yout Life Speak and Read. Read it. I don't. I don't do the therapy therapist story justice, but it's a beautiful story.

Dude, that's heavy. Depression. Is the hand of God pushing you down?

Yeah. And he. You know, I gotta reread it. It's been a little while. He's not saying that God, like, gave him depression, but Parker had been flying too high and was disconnected from reality, and he was just flat. And he. He just had this image. He wanted to see God. God is holding you on the ground where it's safe to stand. And so he tells it real beautiful. It's not a story where you see on the social media now where people are like, oh, if you got depression, you know, it's this or that or. I'm not going to ramble. There's. There's some social media stuff going on where if people are depressed, they're talking about how God gave it to them for that reason and stuff. So. All right, we'll go on.

Okay.

Good book.

Good stuff. Okay, so this next book, it is. This one I probably read at least every other year. Okay. And there's a ton of books by this author, so it's hard for me to just pick one. But this is probably, like, it's. I don't. I wouldn't even call it his best work, but, like, for some reason, it just calls me back multiple times. And this is someone that you and I both love. Who is Ray Anderson? Okay.

Yep.

And. And this book, I keep it in my office. I should get another copy for home. But it's called Living the Spiritually Balanced Life by Ray Anderson.

The virtues you admire in others. Yep.

Yes. Basically, what. What he does is he tells. It's a great devotional. Right. And he goes through kind of their vices. Right. You know, and, you know, the vices are you know, there's vices of, you know, of extra and then vices of not enough. Right. And then he goes into the virtues. And to me, I think, as a person that goes from one side to the other often. Yeah, it's a good centering piece for me. Hence living the spiritually balanced life. For instance, you know, he talks about, you know, the difference between fear and foolhardiness is actually leaning in on courage, you know? You know, so, like, there's this kind of difference. So for me, it always is a good reminder of, like, hey, Lance, find yourself. Find some centering in your life. But, I mean, I could go on and on about Ray Anderson, but that's probably for some weird reason, I find myself going back to that Ray Anderson devotional.

Yeah, I got a bunch of his books, some up behind me and then at home. And I'm. I'm thinking about him a lot when I'm doing therapy, and some of the works he's written. Not all the books are very accessible, as, you know, like, just to give a client.

This one is accessible, though. You can actually give to anybody.

Yeah. Ray Anderson studied.

Under Torrance, under Torrence.

Who studied under Carl Bart, and he's a Bardian. And it can get in the weeds, like, pretty heavy. And I love it. I love his writings. His. I almost pulled his book on. On. On. On Being Human down or On Being Family. Phenomenal.

Wait, I haven't read On Being Family.

Yeah, let me see here.

I have On Being Human. I don't have one. Being Family.

A Social Theology of the Family. Dude, it's like Christmas for you right now. Yeah. Yeah. How does.

How do I not know this one? Oh, okay. Wow. I'm so excited. I have read so many of his books, and I haven't read that one Closure.

I haven't read the other Anderson book that you just referenced either. So I wrote that down.

Oh, good.

Yeah. This was my dad's copy. My dad, when Fuller Seminary, back in the 80s, was on the Grand Canyon University, Grand Canyon College campus, my dad, as a pastor, went over and took a class, audited a class by Ray Anderson. And this is one of the. One of the textbooks. It was, like, right after my mom died, like, 1986, and my dad was in a class with Ray Anderson, and it just changed his life. Yeah.

Wow. I need more stories on your dad, bro.

Well, we'll tell some stories.

What you got?

A Grief Observed by CS Lewis.

Okay, I'm switching up.

I'm switching up.

Then.

I found this copy, in fact, in my mailbox in 1995 at Grand Canyon University, and my chaplain. The chaplain on campus put in my mailbox because he knew my mom had passed away at that point. I guess it was like nine years before. And he just wanted to encourage me. And it's. It's. It's one of the best books on grief, and I can't do it justice, but there's just some beautiful lines in there. And I think I work with, when I work, a lot of clients who are grieving either the death of somebody or the loss of something.

Yeah.

I think I recommend this book a lot because Lewis is. It was his journal before they published it into a book. Right.

He actually print. He published it under a pseudonym.

Yeah. And he's honest with God. He's really angry and upset. In the beginning. God's like God slamming the door and locking it and bolting it, and he works his way through the journal through his own grief. And I feel like it's an honest account of grief and loss that sometimes many Christians don't encounter in their circles. So. Yeah, it's a good one.

Oh, man, you still. I had. I had C.S. lewis. I mean, it's just so great.

Another one up. Yeah.

So wait, you want to go adjacent or. I. I can go. I can pivot.

You can do what you want.

All right, so this next one is a more recent one. And this is. We. We have gone with a lot of white people. Here's another white person, but it's a female. This is a. Bre Brown's daring greatly. I read this book a while back, and I just really appreciate it. Berne's research. Um, and I appreciate it. Just. It really gave me a new view of looking at the plight of different people, particularly around she. Brene Brown, for those of you that don't know and have been living underneath a rock for the past five years, you know, she. She's a shame researcher, and she has really gone about helping people walk into the fullness of who they are. And I just really love this book. It really inspires me, particularly when she talks about finding what's his face. Theodore Roosevelt's treatise on the man in the arena. And that. That. That line, the. The. The part about, you know, that where she describes his. I should find it. I should have it memorized by now. I've had read it so many times. Just really. Anyways, it just really moved me. And there's so many different parts that are throughout Brene Brown's work, and particularly this one that just. Just, like, really Meant a lot to me. So I would definitely recommend to clients Brene Brown, when it comes to, you know, looking through these types of things.

Yeah, Brene's great. You definitely.

You almost got her, right? You almost got her to talk for you.

Yeah. Back when in 2011, I was the vice president of the Dallas association of Marriage Family Therapists, and I sent a query, so you say, to Curie. Curie. I was in charge of all the speakers for our cause every month. So I sent. I contacted her, and her people got back to me. It's like, 2011. They were great. And so then it came to, what's it going to cost a bernet come out, and for an hour Talk, it was $25,000, so I couldn't afford that.

Dude, that was a deal compared to what she cost.

Yeah. I think right now, from what I've read, I think it's like 250,000 for, like, for her to give and give a talk.

So do you want me to read this quote?

Yeah, read the quote.

All right. This is. This is to inspire you to talk to your clients when you're talking about their stuff and. And all this stuff. This is. This is the line. This is from the speech Citizenship. In. In a republic, it is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs who. And who comes short again and again because there is no effort without error and shortcoming. But who does actually strive to do the deeds? Who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spins himself in a worthy cause, who, at the best, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. Dang.

It's good. It's good.

Come on. Vulnerability is not weakness. Come into therapy. It's good for your soul, what you got.

All right. You know, I was actually, you know, I was thinking about Myung in our conversation with her.

Yeah.

About. She was saying how everyone has a culture, and, like, you know, sometimes we think, you know, because you and I were kind of apologetic about, like, our cult, like, we read all these. There are certain type of authors and thinkers, and she's like, everybody's got a culture. They're kind of raised on environment and everything. And so I was just. I was reflecting on that, thinking of the. Like I said, My books kind of are not as diverse as I'm sharing them as I'd like them to be. Does it make sense?

Oh, yeah.

So one of my challenges in New Year is to read a little more from thinkers and globally. Breathing Underwater by Richard Rohr.

Oh, nice.

Spirituality in the 12 steps. I have a lot of people who are in recovery. A lot of people go to a recovery ministry in our area called Regeneration or REGEN for short. I've gone through it myself. It's a 12 step program, so I'll often refer this book. This book was originally not a book. It was a recording of him on audio cassette that had got passed around like all over the country over time, passing the cassettes around. And eventually people bugged him enough to put it into a book. So he put it into a book and it's basically walking through the 12 steps, but looking at the teachings of Jesus in a real like spiritual emphasis on it and combining each step with teachers teachings of Jesus. And there's this beautiful image in there and I, I can't find the exact quote right now, but he talks about that. It's the deep work, it's the recovery work, the healing work that takes place, you know, in the basement of churches and in those classrooms on Wednesdays while people are drinking their cold cups of coffee who are doing the hard work that over the centuries has breathed life up through the grates of the church and into the, into the building. That, that it's the people doing this type of healing work is what is. What is what breathes the Holy Spirit into the rest of the church. He says that more beautifully than me, but I thought about just the work that we do as therapists of like doing this day in, day out work, which sometimes we always wonder, like, how much of an impact is a making sometimes. But it's this work of like, this breathes life into these communities, into these churches. And so Breathing Underwater. Awesome book. Let's do one more piece. How about that? Because we could go on all day. Yeah, I was debating a piece and 10 total, which gives enough people to kind of like, oh, I got to read some books.

Yeah, man. I'm debating between which one to do. All right, I'm gonna do this one. This is for all my. Because I know we have other. This is feminist Prayers for My Daughter by Shannon K. Evans. Okay. This book is chock full of different prayers that you can pray over your. Over your daughter. And I just. There's been so many prayers that, that have locked me up while I'm working through it. And, and just like, really asking for God to help in the healing. And. And it's. I don't know. I. I think about the plight of women. I. I know we. There's like this big thing about what men are going through, but I think the. The plight of women in society today is really heavy. So I've really appreciated this book. It goes through a whole bunch of quick topics like relationships, embodiment, spirituality, womanhood, wholeness, justice, equality, and big milestones. Uh, and there's been moments where I'll be praying over my wife or over my daughter. Um, and I'll, like, open up this book and I'll be like, oh, that's exactly what I wanted to say. Um, so.

I love it, man. I'm looking at it right now.

Yeah. Do we read one of the prayers?

Yeah, let's read it.

Okay. Let's see here. I'll do. For freedom. So in the beginning, it gives a different name for, like, a different way of addressing the Godhead. Oh, faithful liberator. To be human is to seek control over our surroundings, circumstances and relationships. Yet freedom can be found only in the release. Unclench my daughter's fists from holding on too tightly to the desire to control. Invite her to experience the freedom of letting go. Liberate her from the burden of expectations, the expectation of society or of authority figures of herself, yes, even my own. You who break every chain, set my daughter free from the lure of worldly success and people pleasing. May she please herself, and in doing so, may she please you. May her trust be radical. May her assurance be steadfast. May she not stake her identity in obtaining a certain outcome, but rather know who she is when the curtain falls. May my daughter be inwardly blissfully free. Amen.

I love that.

Dude, dude, good prayer.

Yeah. Okay.

What you got?

It was.

Or did I hit you?

No, actually, that whole conversation had me, like, thinking on some stuff. And I'm just looking at something here in front of me because I know I was. I was reflecting on. Because I have a daughter and a son, and I was having this conversation with my daughter who's in college, you know, and I was like, boys are really struggling right now. Like, in my. I see it in my practice like, I've never seen it before. Like, there's some stuff going on. Yeah, that's like, really important. But as I tell her, like, historically, girls, I mean, talk about the oppression of women. I mean, historically. And my daughter, you know, some of the stuff we've had to navigate when she was like in grade school and high school and just the. The treatment of how boys are favored and stuff. And so I just. That had me thinking, too, like, you know, that prayer to your. To women is so important. So I was thinking about men and about boys. And I'll see if I can find it, but I'll say it and I'll show the book first. There's a couple different books, but I. I recommend. I quote this book a lot.

Larry.

Larry Crab. Huh?

You went. It's funny how he did this.

This. The Silence of Adam.

Yes. And.

He. Larry Crabb takes this position that in the garden, Adam was silent. Right. When he could have spoken up and said anything. Right. But instead he blames. And so Larry Crabb kind of paints this overview of the first 50 chapters of Genesis where men are basically silent and don't speak up and don't say anything. And. And so there's this. This thing I like in the book about. About the importance of being a man who, like, is life giving and breathes life. And so I'm trying to find. If you hold me. Hold. Hold on for a second. There's a section for boys. He says, yeah, that's so crazy. You're right.

Like, in that 50, like, when you think about those first 50 chapters, there's, like, story after story of men not doing anything. They're like complete buffoons. Or they're saying, I guess the Tower of Babel would be, like, them talking too much. But. Yeah, that's interesting. And. Noah. Wow.

Yeah, sorry. I was looking so I can find it right now.

I was vamping so you could find it.

Yeah, yeah.

How's my vamping? Ro. Do you approve?

Man. I used to quote it constantly in session, but essentially he. He. In the book, he says there's three important messages to communicate to your sons, you know, and they are like, essentially, like. Like, I see you. Like, I'm Like, I'm here for you. Like, I see you and, you know, two. You can do it. That you. That you have what it takes, you know, and there's another one. But, like, I thought a lot about that truth as I was a young father growing up with a son, about speaking truth into him, let him know that I'm here for him and that he has what it takes. Right? And I'll tell you a quick story, and then I know we can end here, but I. I was one. I was my son and I. Many, many years ago. I don't know how old he was. He must have been, like, four. Were riding bicycles to the park. And he was just, like, in a foul mood, where he's just kind of whining and crying, you know, and. And I told him, like, hudson, like, you know, if this behavior continues, like, we're just gonna need to go home, you know, Like. And I. I mean, I think I said it in a loving, gentle way. I don't think I was like, stop crying, you know, but I was like, hey, like, we're gonna go back home. So, riding the bike, and he flips over his handlebars and he starts crying and bawling, and he looks up at me with tears in his eyes and says, please don't take me home. And in that moment, what I realized in his mind that had connected was that I had told him to kind of stop whining and crying. Earlier, I was going to go home, and now he was really hurt. And the fact that he was crying made him think, like, this isn't okay for a boy. Otherwise, I'm going to have to go home. And I just realized how quickly at a young age. And Larry Crab talks about it, other authors talk about it. You learn that it's not safe to show emotion. Right. And that's not just men. Women have their own experience of that. But I'm talking about this book for men.

Sure.

And how important is to breathe life into your sons, into your daughters, no matter what age. So I love that you have prayers for your daughter, which is to breathe life into her, to speak truth into her through a prayer. And I was thinking, the thing I love about this book is that at an early age, again, when I was a young father new to therapy, it gave me language to help men, like, breathe life into their sons.

So, I mean, it's all about the peace cycle, bro.

Yeah. Back to them, when we.

When we lean into that. And what was the life that you gave to Hudson that day when. When he was sitting there broken on the. On the street there?

What was the. What.

What was the life you breathed into your son that day?

You know, I don't remember. I think I wrote about this, or I think I did a podcast episode about it one day. I think I reflected on it. I'll have to remember. But, like, I just went up and hugged him and said, it's okay. No, like, it's okay to cry, and just held him, you know, there was nothing to be done, really, except he was a. Hold him in my arms and help him with the scuffs. And then we went on into the park when he was ready to go. You Know, so. But yeah. Well, we each. We could do this. We could probably hit 100 books.

Oh. Easily.

And authors. And these are all important. The ones we didn't talk about are important. They've all breathed life into us and we speak them to our clients. And not to beat a dead horse here, but it made me think, too, we should, for some episodes, bring some guests on and have them talk about the books that have been important to them in therapy. Because I think we'll probably get even a wider range of voices and. And. And stuff, which would be really great.

I know I had. I was debating between. I was like, thinking off the shelf for clients. But yeah, I was definitely debating. I was like, I have so many books that I think therapists should be reading, so we should definitely do that sometime.

Yeah. There are. At one point, I had tried to keep a list online of, like, all the books that I think were important to read and stuff, but I just. It's too hard to keep track of. And I know you and I like to read a lot and. Hey, end with this. What are you reading right now?

Right now? I am in the middle of. It's actually Brene Brown's new book. What is the name of it? Oh, gosh, it's killing me.

Ground.

Strong Ground. Thank you.

Yes.

Oh, so good. Yeah. Strong Ground. It's really. It's kind of her treatise on, like, how she's working with. We should have talked about this when we did the business episode.

Yeah.

But yeah, like, she. She talks about this experience that she had with her physical therapist about, like, really finding strong ground and how she didn't have balance and all these things. And it was great. It's great so far. We'll see how it turns out. I mean, it's Bernee, so she's probably not going to break my heart too much, but just enough. What about you? What are you reading?

Okay, I am reading five books right now, so let me just. I'll just say real quickly I'm finishing up the Machine.

Okay.

I'm sorry. Against the Machine. And the subtitle is on the Unmaking of Humanity. Against the Machine. On the Unmaking of Humanity by Paul.

Kingsnorth and sounds like a really picker upper, dude.

He's an Oxford guy, amazing writer, was an atheist and actually practiced witchcraft and had a radical conversion and kind of a friend of Wendell Berry writes a lot about the earth.

Oh, yeah, Wendell Berry.

But this new book is a lot about the machine and AI and humanity. And I will tell you, I am pretty disturbed it's like a book you read and you can't unsee what you read. And it's really about systems in our environment and culture and stuff. And so I reading that, my book club, we decided to read the Alchemist by Paulo. Am I right? Yeah. I read that many years ago, and we're going to do that for fun.

Okay.

I have an author that I love, Brad Stolberg, and he's got a new book coming out in January called the Way of Excellence, the guide to True greatness and Deep satisfaction in a Changing World. So that's coming. I'm telling you his name because he's always talking about that old book, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

Yeah.

Which is about craft a lot. And so I'm reading that because I'm really interested in craft. And then the final book, which, dude, I am loving, it's called the Salt Stones Seasons of a Shepherd's Life by Helen Wybrow. And her and her husband live on a farm up in Vermont. And they're just talking about being on that farm and raising sheep and what being a shepherd teaches you. And it's beautiful. Dude, the book is beautiful. Yeah. So. All right. Sorry to drop five on you there, but I was like, there's so many good stuff out there.

Yeah. I have one more.

Okay.

My Just for fun reading is why we love baseball.

All right.

Yeah. And it's kind of Joe Pasanski's, like, 50 things he loves about baseball. Like, 50 different stories. And there's just so many great, amazing, like, stories about baseball and how baseball connects to life. So. Dude, it's fun to talk about these things.

Yeah. Yeah. I hope people enjoy listening to this.

We'll.

We'll find out.

I mean, if we're talking about sheep, you know, and the life of sheep and, you know, against the machine.

Well, episode 49. Stay tuned, people. Our last episode of The Year, episode 50, coming up soon.

That's a wrap.

Wrap. Later.

Cheers.